For many months our marriage has bumped along in a state of ambivalence. For along time and as long as I moved with my husbands routine that includes IB you would think we were A-OK. But after my husbands supposed one-sided EA, I cannot stomach these old ways. Being lonelier with him than without does not work for me. One Sat night after a shallow apology back in Sept I had had it and went to a hotel and stayed awhile. Shortly after I had several sessions w/SH and not much later my husband had one discussion with Steve. I have begun to post to Dr Harley again and we have begun the online program again. I have had a couple interactions with Sandy and she even gave my husband a call one day. The first restart lesson we have been working on is the IC lesson. I think we have been on this lesson ~ 8 weeks now. My husband claims to be on board and even sees himself as being engaged and "trying." The idea has been for my husband to take the lead. I cannot say my husband has taken a decisive lead. I have gone through this type of 'on board' experience here in the past and soon I'd get worn down from his slogging along and even as a hopeful optimist I'd fall victim to withdrawal along with my husband.

These days he is not indifferent or withdrawn. Still he likes to be right (defensive) a lot of the time rather than making a connection to have intimacy with me . He finally gave up friday night karate ---which was very hurtful to me. We have worked hard to this point, raised kids and have a chance to enjoy couple time on Friday nights without dependent children issues and so on. You dream of these days, right? We do belong to a dojo together. We attend two X week. I have been moving through the color belt ranks while my husband works towards his own quests. There are enjoyable things about karate but the way my husband tends to get involved warrants EP's ---which he avoids. Because of this its possible this activity will end our marriage. We do not belong or have any connection to the dojo where he had an EA 3 years ago. The issue around the current dojo and even how he has habitually managed other hobby interests --can sometimes be done in a hurtful way to me. When we first worked with SH (3 years ago) he thought we could try karate as RC if my husband would make sure I was happy. My husband really blew it back then however by IBing around activity and Dr Harley thought we should find a new activity. Much like a WH in a addictive fog state, he will tell you how important it is for him to get in a vigorous workout and will not express mindfulness towards his actions and how his actions will affect me. Basically he dances around POJA of this RC. The trouble is that even though karate is a healthy activity, he loses perspective, develops blind ambitions, lacks relational clarity, can be thoughtless and not caring, can be dishonest by not being forthcoming, there is a compare/contrast affect between his passion for activity and his experience between us, he gets outside admirations due to his technical skills for this activity and so on. So these days when he starts talking to me about his big need for vigorous exercise I am not so gullible thinking he needs this because after all he works so hard and so on. I know there are many married people that get in a vigorous workouts without betrayals. Apparently its very hard for him to figure out how to exercise and follow MB and eliminate LBers.

I don't want to simply bump along. My husband had purchased a MB coaching bundle a couple months ago. Like I said he talked with Steve one time. He claims he doesn't need to talk with him again. I can only assume my husband does not want to be married to me any longer. I find myself pushing this notion away and keeping busy with our business we share together. With all our responsibilities together it all seems OK going from one goal or accomplishment to the next. My husbands plugs away at getting his work done and leaves me to confront the issues that make me upset. You would think the troubles we are having are all in my head. We are not going onto another lesson until we BOTH are filling out the accountability form. My husband usually will fill it out---if I remind him! Given we each need to take initiative and mainly he needs to lead the way--thats not good.

Of late, neither SH or Dr Harley are suggesting plan B. Xmas eve we will have our adult children and grandchildren here. This gives me a sense of hope for some family intimacy surrounding the upcoming holiday. But it looks like Christmas day we will be alone. My husband will be on call however and this means we will have interruptions and attentions will be divided. Its not like we can't be creative and find poignant moments to connect even under difficult circumstances and take every opportunity to find joy. But I can't be certain my husband will be willing on his own merit. He enjoys all the Currier and Ives type elements surrounding the holidays in a taker kind of way. Given my husbands prolonged ambivalence which I find very hurtful, I have to take better charge and find a way out of this hurtful space with him or without him.

In reflextion, I do not have much faith we'll pull out of this. I used to have faith we'd work this out. But the effort has been one sided. I am having a hard time cutting my losses after so many years together. I suppose I am in some ways like the little girl, Virginia in "Its a Wonderful Life" who is doubtful. But as an adult I know that magical thinking will not help the cause and the story line is heading south. I have been given a lot really, but what I most want I cannot have. I feel ashamed we have not experienced a better outcome with the great tools available here. Still, these principles are very important to me. I stand (metaphor) in my bride clothes waiting for the new born king to lead me.

I am grateful for the collective wisdom on this site which has expanded my awareness and reality.

Sorry graceful to see you're M is still at a standstill.

Holidays are stressful enough.

What does Steve and Dr. H recommend if your H doesn't start to engage?

How much UA time do you get?

What does Steve and Dr. H recommend if your H doesn't start to engage?

Thanks BH. Good question. I'll ask them.

How much UA time do you get?

Its been variable and on the short end. We plan it. For awhile my husband was arriving home late or drifting from plan. Or the planned together did not always count from my perspective. approx 8 to 10 hours week.

I know when our UA time drops, we really feel it.

What can you do to increase your UA time?

Have you seen this?
The Critical Importance of UA Time

I don't want to simply bump along...In reflextion, I do not have much faith we'll pull out of this...I have to take better charge and find a way out of this hurtful space with him or without him.

These should be your first three statements to your WH in your next UA interval (which, come to reflect on it, I see no mention of in your note ).

Until you figuratively slap WH across the face with your desperation, this statement is very likely true: ...the troubles we are having are all in my head. You have to put them front and center in his head. You allude to the fact that WH may not be in love with you. Is he willing to make the effort to fall in love with you, with the alternative of your leaving? I don't get the impression from your note that you would make that stand, firmly and sternly, so without it, well, you get what you've gotten.....

BTW: There is no "Virginia" in "It's a Wonderful Life!" There is a "Violet", but she played the part of a floozy, so I'm guessing that's not who you meant, either. Is it possible you meant the Natalie Wood character, "Susan", in "Miracle on 34th Street"?

Maybe she's mixed up the little girl who wrote the famous letter to the Editor of the NY Sun.

Thanks everyone. I really need this feedback.

Kerala, your right about the character mix up.

Neverguessed, I have been forthcoming about my feelings and needs to my husband. He will rally for a short period with half measures.He claims he wants to be in love and does not want me to leave. His actions conflict.

Brainhurts,
We could increase UA time by sticking to the time we have planned. And using the time for RC, Affection, SF and IC.

On paper its all layed out. Its a matter of making this time planned sacred and making the time enjoyable for both.

Am I enabling the problem? I believe am doing the best I can to not enable, yet communicate openly and honestly.

My husband has complained I lecture him. You see I have expressed how I feel and what I need and the result had been my husband takes my complaints so personally he views the complaints as his failure. SH and I have discussed not getting into a parent child dynamic--which is a turn off for us both.

Lecturing is a DJ.... You are trying to teach him. Unless he is asking you for the extra information, just state your complaint and let him process it for himself. My guess is you're trying to minimize your complaints impact by teaching him why you have this complaint to begin with. As you already know, it doesn't work! The more you try to explain the more of a failure he will see in himself....

I'm confused about the martial arts though. Dr. H told you to both find something else for RC back in 2010.... What happened? I'm also trying to discern you and your H's ages?

Hi HPB~

Yes, lecturing is a DJ. Its been difficult to not get trapped into this mode. Here is why we have this dance or a negative feedback loop: I will very simply state a complaint. ie "I am worried we are not getting enough UA time this week and I am feeling lonely." Then my husband will begin saying "I don't understand?" or "I don't know what you mean?" or "That's not true" or "that's not the way it is"

I have not been in the habit of walking away from these questions. I respond by qualifying and quantifying my complaint. Yes, I have asked my husband to ask SH or come here for advice but that does not happen. Plus he is asking me specifics of what I mean. Of course this leads to more like questioning from my husband. In the end I am very much not validated and my concerns or complaint is invalidated in HIS world. In other words it seems like he is getting me to so-call lecture so he has all the info he needs to not help. This questioning and answering is the lecturing that stops us in our tracks. When he asks these types of questions I feel exacerbated like I am bone tired but yet have this mountain to climb. You might say, his questioning is like a disabling strong block in the martial arts world.

Martial Arts: Extension of Steve Harley's coaching my husband.

Husband, veteran surgeon age 59, very busy solo practice. I am 57. Married 33 years.

Just because I had some free time....

Dear Editor�
I am 8 years old. Some of my little friends say there is no
Santa Claus. Papa says, �If you see it in The Sun, it�s so.�
Please tell me the truth, is there a Santa Claus?
Virginia O�Hanlon

Virginia, your little friends are wrong. They have been affected by the skepticism of a skeptical age. They do not believe except they see. They think that nothing can be which is not comprehensible by their little minds. All minds, Virginia, whether they be men�s or children�s, are little. In this great universe of ours, man is a mere insect, an ant, in his intellect as compared with the boundless world about him, as measured by the intelligence capable of grasping the whole of truth and knowledge.

Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus. He exists as certainly as love and generosity and devotion exist, and you know that they abound and give to your life its highest beauty and joy. Alas! how dreary would be the world if there were no Santa Claus! It would be as dreary as if there were no Virginias. There would be no childlike faith then, no poetry, no romance to make tolerable this existence. We should have no enjoyment, except in sense and sight. The eternal light with which childhood fills the world would be extinguished.

Not believe in Santa Claus! You might as well not believe in fairies. You might get your papa to hire men to watch in all the chimneys on Christmas eve to catch Santa Claus, but even if you did not see Santa Claus coming down, what would that prove? Nobody sees Santa Claus, but that is no sign that there is no Santa Claus. The most real things in the world are those that neither children nor men can see. Did you ever see fairies dancing on the lawn? Of course not, but that�s no proof that they are not there. Nobody can conceive or imagine all the wonders there are unseen and unseeable in the world.

You tear apart the baby�s rattle and see what makes the noise inside, but there is a veil covering the unseen world which not the strongest man, nor even the united strength of all the strongest men that ever lived could tear apart. Only faith, poetry, love, romance, can push aside that curtain and view and picture the supernal beauty and glory beyond. Is it all real? Ah, Virginia, in all this world there is nothing else real and abiding.

No Santa Claus! Thank God! he lives and lives forever. A thousand years from now, Virginia, nay 10 times 10,000 years from now, he will continue to make glad the heart of childhood.

Francis P. Church, The New York Sun, 1897.

I'm curious,

What are your H's martial arts ambitions? What is his current rank and what is his title?

In other words he treats you like a patient. After interrogating you regarding the complaint, he wants to prescribe a remedy and send you on your way.... And he's off to his next task leaving you, not only exasperated, but unfulfilled.

Sound about right?

Neverguessed,
In the spirit of Christmas---I thank you getting the story straight!

HPB,

1. 1st degree black belt. Ambitions...mind, body health benefit. Engaged and enjoys learning and studying the art. Preparing for 2nd degree BB. Likes to push himself physically. Enjoys learning about the culture.

2. Yes. I like the way John Gottman, PhD describes this: "I've also seen peoples career identities get in the way of their ability to be present in their relationships. It's a problem particularly common among people in professional roles that reward them for their objectivity, intellectual prowess, and emotional distance. While such qualities may be highly valued in boardrooms and surgical suites, they can be obstacles to emotional intimacy."

A few years back before the drama surrounding the dojo EA, I had a serious medical issue that lead to several rare complications. This is where we fragmented. Historically I'd been keeping us together but could no longer do so while I was busy surviving. These days I can't play that one sided role anymore for obvious reasons and then some.

Oddly, martial arts is a good style of exercise for me due to my own medical complications.

I understand what you mean, but is this getting in the way of your UA time? Martial arts tends to be an individual activity. I have several arts I've received degrees in. Recently I was given the title of Shihan, and I understand the demands of martial arts very well.
Like me, your H is not a young man either and I'm not sure martial arts will reward your marriage with any intimacy anymore than it will mine.... KWIM?



You cannot accept a one sided anything, it will destroy you further...

Are you willing to seek other avenues of RC together? Have you both completed the RC questionnaire recently...

Yes, I would say martial arts can get in the way of UA time if allowed to and this is the issue w/ma these days if we allow it to happen. This is why I would get so upset w/friday night karate-- which at this dojo --is focused on kumite that my husband loves. I thought it wrong on many levels and I was offended. I also would get off put when weekends would get lopsided towards karate activities especially over consecutive weekends filled w/karate this and that. We are not teenagers competing in tournaments around the country. We are new grandparents with adult children and little grand babes that need us. Sure, its great to stay young and in shape and so on--just want balance literally and figuratively.

Ultimately I want balance where our RC activities or UA time is dominant to keep our marriage stable and of course to 'be in love.' There are many other RC activities we enjoy together and I'm sure many more we have yet to explore. I agree and have had several discussions with SH about karate and the individual nature of karate. So you, me, Steve H and maybe Dr Harley agree, karate is low on the totem pole as a activity to fulfill RC and count towards UA time and even likely to score negative points in the love bank!

Probably over the next 18 months its not going to be easy. Although I am not a doctor, because my husband is a solo practitioner, I function as his partner at work. So I take care of everything but the clinical stuff at the practice. The administrator and CFO. Last year we purchased commercial property for the practice, built bigger and moved. So now I am a property manager too. This means I am operating two corporations and a household. We are growing. This means time is precious and privacy is a sensitive issue.

Fortunately, just today my husband said he knows he cannot put us off while this all goes on or we'll really be in trouble! Well.... YAH! Anyway, the idea is to get to the point we are able to bring in another doctor to become partner. But we are in a weird transitional phase to help ease towards retirement.

I believe karate has been a mini escape hatch my husband began to use while I was ill! Re-tooling has been rough. He is locked and loaded in his habits. Patients love his hyper-focus on them. Karate people love his focus. Sometimes I love it. Sometimes I don't love it.

Weekend tournaments and Kumite are a luxury neither your marriage nor your family can afford.

Participating in these on the weekend has nothing to do with staying physically fit. They are all about his need for admiration.

He's effectively allowing others to meet this need for him by partaking in the weekend and extra activity that goes beyond working out for an hour or so, 2-3 times a week.

When he allows his love bank to receive deposits from others, he's preventing you from having exclusive rights to the account. He's wide open for EA's and is being no more than an admiration whore. He's allowing his admiration to be met by the highest depositor.... Very dangerous!
This is what happens with RC activities that are focused on solo performances.
He's focused on the competition and admiration he'll get, NOT the companionship with you.... Therefore, if you're 100% honest with yourself, Karate is NOT RC and shouldn't be counted as part of your UA time.

I understand his activities all to well. Admiration was a huge issue for me to learn about. Pre-affair, my bank account got to the point that I didn't even let my wife make deposits anymore..... In a sense, I treated them as if they were too small to count. The reality was, I sought the admiration from all the wrong places and it created a great deal of damage. Until your H knows about and acknowledges what he's doing, he's leaving the marriage very vulnerable.

Watching him accept admiration deposits from others all day and during RC would explains why you're feeling neglected.... The reality is, watching deposits being accepted to his open bank account is withdrawing Love units from yours at an equal to, or maybe even, greater rate....

Thanks for the validation HPB. I have not used the same words (whore) but have essentially said the same thing to my husband. I came up with the same theory regarding admiration needs. At first my husband did not list admiration as a top need. For a long time when I'd ask about this need of his he would deny it. He was dodgy and kind of covert about it rather then opening his LB to me and allowing me to meet this need. Just recently he admitted admiration was an important need. This was a huge break through even though it was obvious to myself or SH and now you. Because he is in the habit of getting this need met outside --mostly-- I want EP's especially surrounding exercise. He seems to be coming around, but it happens ridiculously slow where he goes through the lame questioning I described earlier. So slow my bank is lowish and I can't take his debates and ambivalence. Its like I have to confront my husband and my old self who once thought it OK for my husband to get this need met whichever way he pleased. It was an old world view that no longer serves anyone. Yes, we do not count kumite and tourneys as RC or even essential in our lives. Mostly to me, its OK if UA is met. Your preaching to the chore unfortunately.

HPB,
What woke you up? How did you shift from these outside sources of admiration to closing your LB and then opening the bank for your wife to make deposits?

After I had lost everything.

It was a horrid journey. My wife and family suffered terribly because of my selfishness.

If you'd ever like to see the journey through my wife's eyes, here's a link to her thread -----> Link to Sexymamabear's Thread


I read it once a year.... I have an amazing wife....