Well last night was kind of interesting. Our neighbors invited themselves over to our house to watch TV. They told us that they would spring for pizza etc.. They were at our house before I got home from work, and when I finally ordered pizza and it was delivered, I had to pay for it. I was a little irritated with our neighbors as a lot of them are always around our house and it is difficult to spend quality time with the family only. My W saw that I looked kind of irritated and felt I was mad at her. I told her I was irritated with the neighbors and she accepted this.

I have three days off for this holiday weekend coming up, and have suggested to my W that we drive somewhere and have a mini-vacation. She always seems resistent to this in the past and present. I think because she is a planner and has to have everything organized before she can enjoy it. So this puts pressure on her and we end up discussing this in bed last night. I told her we should go somewhere Saturday, stay over night and come back Sunday. We should do something that is fun for us as well as our four year old S. She was worried about him getting bored and I said we need to start doing things for us as well as S. I told her I remember having to do things with my parents that I found boring, but its part of growing up. She either not understanding that we need to do things for us once in a while, or she just does not want to yet. I have not figured this out.

I also suggested that on Monday we should get a babysitter and her and I should to something one on one together.

She brought up that I always seem to talk about our relationship when we are alone and why can't we just have some fun. I reminded her that I have not talked about our relationship for a week and we went golfing together last Sunday and had fun together. I also said that we cannot never talk about our relationship, and in the future will have to communicate more to improve our relationship. She says she understood.

She did tell me that she loved me before she turned her back to me to go to sleep. I guess this is positive. There was no affection or her reaching for my hand or anything. I did kiss her goodnight and she did not push me away (quick kiss).

Does this sound like things are moving slowly towards the right direction? I have difficulty knowing if this is just status quo or not.

Hi, you wanted input from someone who was on the receiving end of jealousy or mistrust. Well I was in a relationship for 7 yrs with a man who was controlling and very jealous. I worked in a bar when I met him so I knew a lot of guys and I also like men as friends as opposed to women. The jealousy was a bit different than what you are going through but I could not look around when driving in the car or he thought I was checking out men, if in a restaurant I looked up to see people coming in then I was doing it again. I learned to avert my eyes and never to make eye contact with men especially. If his friends talked to me then I had to refrain from getting into a lengthy discussion. I felt I always had to defend myself to him and I gave up all my friends for him. I had one really good guy friend who did have a crush on me but it was not reciprocated and my friend knew that. One day my bf checked my caller id and told me that I was calling my guy friend too much etc etc. In the beginning I would call him then delete the information from the phone, I was not hiding anything bad from bf but did not want to get accused and get into a fight. Maybe your w feels that if she denies it and tries to delete it then it will avoid a fight or confrontation. In my personal opinion that is what I did, we also talked only about our kids, house, work etc nothing to hide except from a person who did not want me talking to my friend.

I did not fight to keep my guy friends, I gave them up as well as the 2 girl friends I had since it caused so much problem. It seems to me that your w has not reached that yet and is fighting to keep her friendship hopefully it is indeed only a friendship.

That's all the input I have and btw I now have another bf and he is not opposed to my having guy friends. It seems that since it is not an issue in this relationship I have not done too much about rekindling my friendship with the guy. I really enjoy the company of my bf and he is my best friend.

good luck, hope this helps
Marie

sorry, I'm new to this board and I did not clue in when I responded that there were 6 pages to this post duh !!. My reply will not help you since you have all this figured out already.

I hope you are both making progress in saving your marriage, sounds like she is coming around.

Marie

Dear mcmkr,

Thank you for replying. You said that you gave up your male friends, did this cause you to resent you H? It sounds as though you are saying that you should just accept this and move on, but, it is not a real relationship if one of the partners keeps the other under lock and key.

I realize that to truly have a wonderful and meaningful relationship, where two people can feel safe, loved and be open about anything, they need to be with you by choice.

Thanks,

EL

E L,
Dang neighbors!!

It does sound like your W is softening up. Keep doing what you have been doing and enjoy the progress. It's a very slow and unsure process for both of you but it does get better. Maybe she isn't doing as much as you think she should or even what you would like but remember, it's a process and while you have gotten there she needs her time too. You know how long it took you to get to this point right? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

As for the IC and her not asking you about it. She asked first and showed great interest (this is a good sign. She has faith in you and IC)then the folowing time(s?) you told her. Maybe she is waiting for you to tell her. Maybe she thinks you seemed kind of closed off about it and wants to give you your space OR she thinks that there is something you don't want to share with her.
It seems more obvious to you because you indeed weren't ready to share what happened. She may have felt that too.

Let her know what happens if you are comfortable with that. Let her know that you appreciate that she asks because it shows you her interest in you.

I see progress!!
Symphony



I think I remember you saying that normally you would tell her everything after C.

Hi EL,

Sorry I didn't get back to you right away. I was off of work yesterday.

I would recommend you make a point of trying to focus on the positive things your W does. Try to remember that it should be the goal of every person to strive for excellence not perfection. Your W is never going to do things exactly as you wish. That would feel to her like she's being controlled.

Be careful with your new found desire to fix everything, especially if it requires some action on her part. I would suggest you try to stick to talking about issues when they present themselves. You know, when you and your W are discussing/disagreeing a topic that needs addressing. I would imagine that your W is doing things that she feels would make you happy. They may not be the things you want but maybe they are things that allow her to feel good about the R. It may help her begin to feel the connection / closeness your R needs. Once she's BACK into loving you then you can slowly begin to discuss what things you feel you are missing.

I was a little confused how her taking in your car and having lunch with you was something she did for herself. Could you explain?

One more thing.

I think your W is wanting to just live the R for a while and not analyze everything. That may be why she's not asking about your IC. It may also be your IC talk somehow reveals something she's doing that's lacking. Your W doesn't want to hear how she is falling short in you R. She's probably in the mode of 'He needs to do some things to get this R working again. After all it was his jealousy and controlling that got us where we are today. He needs to do some work.'

My W has told me during the last couple of years (since I attended some self-improvement seminars) 'Why do you have to over-analyze everything?'. I said it was important for me to study every situation so I can be sure we are moving in a positive direction. I think she feels overwhelmed discussing everything and most certainly is not thrilled with having to discuss 'walls' she's put up. You know... don't go there... you're dragging up some old crap I don't want to deal with. I'd rather keep drudging forward feeling like I'm happy with the way I am. (Resistant to change).

Hi EL, I posted a reply but it disappeared somehow. I must say that I was totally infatuated with this man and that I did or would do anything for him. I was insecure to start with and did not think he loved me enough. To avoid being accused and confrontations I did as he liked. I did not resent giving up my guy friends, to me it was like if he was hanging around with a girl I would not like it so out of respect I did it. I did resent not being allowed girlfriends though and I really resented him driving by to see if I was where I said I would be, timing me at the store and checking my girlfriends house to see if I had stopped in to see her after a soccer game for my son. I could not go out after work with the girls for a drink, I was always anxious if I was late a few minutes or if I had errands to run. After we broke up he told me that if he ever had another gf he would make sure she was ugly so that he did not have to go through this jealousy thing again, I think it was hard on him too.

If he had promised to stop and to trust me I don't think I would have believed it. I would still look over my shoulder and still feel anxiety over being late or if I looked up when people walked by. It is hard to show someone that you will no longer be jealous and that you will trust, it takes a long time. I think that my behaviour would not have changed cos I would think that he was just saying that but that the next time his friend talked to me too long etc, an argument would follow.

My new bf is not like that, I can do what I want (within reason of course !!) and he totally trusts me and I him. I still however have lasting effects of my other relationship. For example last night I went to the mall with my daughter and had to stop at a phone booth to let him know cos I felt anxious inside that he would be mad. He said fine just don't spend all the money !! Several times when I said I would be gone 1 hr and was longer I would rush home thinking I was in trouble and he had not even noticed I was late. My ex bf caused all this anxiety in me, now with my new boyfriend I am learning to let go and enjoy, it has been 3 yrs and I still have the effects.

I think my situation was a little more extreme than what happened between you and your w but it is just to let you know that it is hard to trust that we are trusted for real.

Marie

Thanks guys,

I think you are right. I need to enjoy the small forward progress and allow her time to enjoy my small forward progress. I guess you are right about her not asking about IC because she does not want to keep talking about it right now.

MCMKR - I want you to know that I have not held my W to a time frame coming back from the store or followed her to checkup on her. My jealousy and control was when I was present for things or when I did look at her email (which by the way was supposed to be a joint account in the first place).

We are going away for the weekend with our S and it should be a fun time. We'll see how things go. I have noticed her saying things that indicate to me that she is trying. One of the things that does irritate me is that when we both do something and later she is talking to someone, she always talks about what we did as "I did this or that" not that WE did this or that. Maybe this is such a little thing and is my problem to get over it.

Anyway, Thanks for the support Symphony, MyAlias and mcmkr.

Have a wonderful weekend! - EL

Well just to provide an update, we went away for the weekend. It was pretty good. It doing things with my W and S and we all seemed to have a good time. We also had a great dinner on Saturday night. I was open with my W about what I had figured out through counseling. I do not think she totally understood what it meant, but she did not get angry with it, which was good. She also said that things have seemed to have gotten slowly better.

We got home Sunday night and I had planned a baby sitter for during the day on Monday since I had off. I figured we could spend some one on one time together. I told her it did not matter what we did as long as it was spending time together (not a movie). We ended up looking for furniture together (which is probably not one of the best things to do to enjoy one on one time together since it inherently promotes differences). Anyway, my W started talking to the salesman and explaining what she liked and what I would want. I tried to interject and say that what my W was saying was not how I felt. She repeatedly would not listen to me and interject what she beleived to be "my" opinion. After the salesman walked away, I tried to explaint to my W (without LBing) that when she expresses my opinon for me and it is not really how I feel, I feel bad. When I interject to stop her from this, but she overides me, it hurts me. She got mad and said, "I knew we could not have a good time." This really hurt.

We moved on from this and the rest of the day was ok. We ended up having a nice dinner with one set of the neighbors (who are having their own issues). During this dinner, the neighbors started discussing their issues, which brought out our issues. This was not healthy for either couple.

On Tuesday I went to IC. I asked my C for a plan now that this was my fourth visit. She said that she does not work this way (laying out a detailed plan). I know this is not what MB says should happen. I also said that I am concerned about only trying to resolve conflict and learning to communicate better in counseling and not really working on restoring the love, which I feel is most important. The counselor said you need to do all of this and meet eachother's needs. Therefore, I am currently on the fence with this C because I do not know if she is going to be effective or not because so far she only seems to have me talk and she writes down notes while making some suggestions. We did get to understand that my current trust issues are due to my own insecurities and not something that my W is causing. I guess this is big. She says we can work on my own insecurities without MC since my W has not chosen to participate yet.

It has been almost two months now since I have asked my W to read the MB books and fill out the surveys. As you can imagine, not much has happened with this. I have filled out some of the surveys and have not given them to her yet. I think tonight, I will ask her to fill out the LB, EN and activity surveys. It should only take her a little while. This is vital info that I need to be a better husband. Hopefully she will do this.

Anyway, I just wanted to keep some of you updated through my ups and downs.

Thanks, EL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">my W started talking to the salesman and explaining what she liked and what I would want. I tried to interject and say that what my W was saying was not how I felt. She repeatedly would not listen to me and interject what she beleived to be "my" opinion. After the salesman walked away, I tried to explaint to my W (without LBing) that when she expresses my opinon for me and it is not really how I feel, I feel bad. When I interject to stop her from this, but she overides me, it hurts me. She got mad and said, "I knew we could not have a good time." This really hurt.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well it sounds like your W is still in a defensive mode. She doesn't want to hear what she's doing that doesn't work in your R or what hurts you. Maybe she'll soften with time. I've got my fingers crossed. I wasn't there but maybe you can re-evaluate your timing and your approach of providing this information to her. Of course, I'm also concerned about you becoming a doormat for her defensiveness.

Hello MyAlias,

This is also what I am concerned with. It seems as though she is now in some ways punishing me for past behavior (indirectly). It also seems that since I have shown that I now see things that I have done wrong in the past and am trying to resolve them, she is now putting all of our issues on me. I think this may be natural for the short time, but I am hoping it subsides.

I am going back and forth on putting the surveys in front of her again tonight. I am not sure if I should "bring things up again or not." I guess it is in how I bring these things up. Maybe I should approach her with, "Honey, I am very thankful for your support of my trying to improve myself. I have come pretty far in a short amount of time. However, I think I am at a point where I need further perspective to be able to make me a better husband. I would truly appreciate it if you would take an hour tonight to fill out some surveys. I would greatly appreciate this and it will definitely help me to improve. Part of my working through trust issues is to learn that you still trust me as I learn that I still trust you. I have completed these surveys and will give you mine after you fill them out. We can trust that this information will only be for each of us and used only to improve our marriage."

What do you think? or should I just give it more time and not ask for the surveys again?

Thanks, EL

EL,
I just read through all 7 pages. =) I wanted to post because I am in your wife's place almost exactly and I wanted to give you my story. I'm looking for a little help too, so maybe together we can work this out.

My H and I have been married for 7 years. He's always been a somewhat jealous person (he THINKS his 1st love cheated on him) and I've always had guy friends. This has caused a little conflict but nothing we couldn't handle until just recently. I started a new job almost 2 years ago and finished college about 6 months ago. While I was in school, I didn't really have a whole lot of friends--there was no time for that and my H. My H would spend a lot of time with people from work (including a girl he became very good friends with) while I was in class, and on the weekends--which was a good time for me to study. Keep in mind that I don't have a jealous bone in my body and I trust my H completely.

After I graduated, I started hanging out with a guy from work (who's about 42, I'm 26), and his two friends, a guy (34) and his older sister. I have a lot in common with these people so it was just natural to want to spend time with them. I ALWAYS invited my H to go out with us, but I didn't feel like I should not go just because he wants to sit around at home (I'm much more social than he is). So I would go without him. He would get angry with me when he thought I came home too late or I didn't come home when he called and told me to. I felt he was being unreasonable. I had never put restrictions on who he could go out with, when and where, yet here he was doing it to me. He tells me he doesn't like me hanging around a single guy, and doesn't understand why this guy would want to spend all this time with me (please remember that these are all group activities--not just me and this guy).

I began to feel very angry and we fought all the time. He tells me he can't help being jealous and he's always been like this, so I shouldn't be surprised. I've told him time and time again that when he acts like this (calling me all the time while I'm out, drilling me on why I'm home so late, making snide comments about this guy) I feel like he doesn't trust me. And time and time again he's told me he trusts ME just not other guys. I don't see a lot of difference. I feel that it should be enough that I trust them and that I am smart enough to choose my own friends. On top of feeling he doesn't trust me, I feel like he doesn't respect me enough to let me make my own decisions and to go out without him.

We've had many discussions over the past month about these issues. Many times we would feel we'd resolved something, just to have it crop back up the next day--and this is a daily thing. I even tried to explain to him that I was so unhappy that I didn't feel I could stay in the marriage if things did not change. I don't know what I said differently in the last conversation we had (this past Friday), but he seems to understand now that I was serious about that.

When we talked Friday, he decided that a lot of this happened because he wanted to spend time with me, but when I'd give him the chance he wouldn't take it. This past weekend we spent a lot of time with these friends of mine so he could get to know them better and spend time together. I thought that would help, but I still felt incredibly unhappy. Instead I realized that I don't think I'm in love with him anymore. And I don't know if I can get that back or if I want to.

I know there's a lot more that I wanted to say in regards to your situation, but there's just so much. My main purpose for writing this was just to give you an example of your situation from the other side. When she tells you, "Fine, I'll just do what you want," she's given up. Anyway, just know that this is very possibly what your W is going through right now. If I knew the answer, I'd be working on it myself right now. I hope this helped you more than it may have hurt.

Hey AC,

Thanks for the reply. It is definitely good to get a perspective from the opposite side.

First you need to know that you can get the love back if both parties are willing. If you fell in love in the first place, you can do it again, but it takes an effort from both.

A question for you would be do you still tell your H that you love him? My W tells me this at the end of phone calls and before we fall asleep. It could be going through the motions, I hope not.

I cannot explain why I did not understand what my behavior was doing to my W until I found this site. No matter what she said, it did not add up for me.

Now that I have figured some of this out, I am working to resolve it as quickly as possible. I do not know if my W is questioning her love for me or not, but she has told me that she want us to work out and wants our marriage. I have to believe her or this is just another form of not trusting her.

I guess the hardest thing from my end is firstly, the guilt I feel for how I have made the woman I love feel. Secondly, it is extremely difficult trying to improve whithout much support from the W, (even though I am sure she would tell you that she feels she is being very supportive). I need her to now do more than just tell me she wants our M, I need her to show me. But, I am sure she is not at the point that I am really able to make too many demands that matter at this point.

If you would not mind, I would like to ask you a personal question. It has been explained to me that by my jealousy/controling behavior, my W may feel unsafe with me out of fear of my reaction (not physically mind you). I have also been told that this unsafe feeling could be what has caused her to not feel much affection or sexual desire over the last four years. Has your H's actions caused you a lower labido? I am just curious and trying to understand the entire mess I could have contributed too.

Thanks for any response. - EL

Good morning EL,

I'm a little busy this morning and I have to get to a job interview but I wanted to reply to your questions.

I'm going to think on your question some and provide you with my opinion when I get back.

Chat with ya soon.

Well, last night I brought the LB, EN and recreational activities surveys home and asked my W to help me be a better H and fill them out. She became frustrated because she said she tells me these things and why should she write them down. I mentioned to her that I obviously am not understanding what she tells me and would appreciate her writing them down so I can understand her.

She then tried to fill out the EN and LB surveys and said that she could not because the surveys did not make sense to her. She was not understanding what they were asking etc.. This goes back to her not reading the books. She ended up saying that I need to trust her, not be jealous and not be controling, which is what she says she has been saying all along. She then said that she could live without sex and it was not important to her. I told her that it was important to me and that we should desire to fullfill our partners needs. I then said that I understand that she has not felt "safe" with me and is probably not in romantic love with me, but we could get it back. I needed to know from her that she is open to her having sexual desire of me in the future and can understand that this desire could come back with us falling in love again. I also asked her if she was still in love with me or not (and stressed that she be completely open with me). She said that she still is in love with me. She says things have gotten better over the last couple of weeks and that it will take time for her to feel comfortable that she can feel safe. She also said that we are different because I feel like I need her sometimes and she learned a long time ago that she does not need anyone. I pointed out that this is an issue and that shee needs to eventually feel comfortable enough with me that she can feel like she needs me. She said how can I expect this with the way I was. I said I understood this and will, over time, prove to her that I am the person she can feel comfortable with needing. We hugged and held eachother.

This discussion was huge because it started out with her immediately having angry outbursts (not judgments). This is how most all of these discussions had started and continued. But I was able to change the course of this one and it turned into one that I really feel we talked and somewhat communicated. I hope this is a sign of better things to come.

My W also said that she did not wish to go to C because all she sees C as is her and I arguing in front of a C and wasting money. I cannot blame her because of two bad C experiences previously. Therefore, she said I should continue with the C and eventually she will go.

I think this is all positive.

Thanks,

EL

Kudos my friend.

You broke the normal trend of your conversations. Even though she started to follow the usual path you were both open to continuing the discussion and began to bring it to a level where there was real progress established.

Your W might still be in a bit of a fog with her defensive wall but if you continue to just be open, honest, NOT PUSHY, and prove to her your changes I'm sure she'll begin to gain some of that 'safe' feeling you described.

Good job. You should feel good about your accomplishment. And you should let her know how much you appreciate her honesty.

Now go have some fun with her and don't bring up relationship stuff.

When you do go to MCing, you know it won't be arguing in front of the C as she thinks it will. You know it will be intelligent open honest communication. So to put her at ease when you do go make sure you start off the session by talking about your faults. That will make it easier for her to settle into the sessions and she will feel less attacked when the C decides to confront her about her feelings and behaviors. Trust me, she's got some walls that need to come down.

Well, I took MyAlias' advice and did not bring up our R last night to my W and tried to to have a good time with her and our S. I also got a first look at my W's partially filled in EN questionaire that was half way filled out. According to this I am meeting almost every need, other than the trust thing, which I am working on at lightening speed. The thing that hurts and sticks in my mind is that on the SF part my W scored it as a -5 for her and wrote "not interested and do not need it." On the bottom section where it asks about how your partner is doing meeting these needs, she wrote "N/A." This really hurt and leaves me with doom and gloom thoughts of no chance for recovery in the SF department.

As she said two days ago, she feels as though I "dupped" her in the beginning of the relationship by "not showing my "true colors" of mistrust. Through C I realize this is not true and that my past issues were triggered a few months into the R. I also am working through this. However, I suppose I could really say the same thing since in the beginning my W and I had a good SF relationship and it has died off to her not needing or caring about it. To me, I certainly feel "dupped" as well.

Now, my gut is telling me that she is probably just like me and she probably does not "see" things clearly right now with regards to SF. She does feel that my need for SF is "my problem." All I can do is take the lonely path and rely on time coupled with my positive actions will change this. Hopefully if I can become the person that trusts her and we begin to share more, maybe I will become important enough to her for her desire to come alive again. I am just frustrated right now that I may be fighting a hopeless battle here and do not wish to be stupid and not realize if there really is no way to change the outcome here.

Is there anyone out there from a femal perspective that was in the same situation as my W and came back from it?

Thanks, EL

EL,

If she feels you are fulfilling all of her needs except the trust issue than you can see what you've got to do.

You need to keep doing those positive things that build that trust. Once you've accomplished that and she's communicated that she feels 'safe' again then you should be in a position where you need to start TAKING. You are making wonderful attempts to look inside yourself and become a better person. You deserve someone who is going to want to do the same for you.

I will keep my fingers crossed that she will eventually wake up and see that she is hurting you. She is denying the R the very essentials it needs to be considered fulfilling for everyone involved.

What's your timeline for doing your Plan A???? How long before you go nuts being denied SF, respect and other ENs? Don't let her string you along because she is afraid to deal with her issues. I can't offer any advice on a timeline but I was curious to see what your gameplan was.

Hello MyAlias,

I do not have a hard timeline. I guess I am already nuts because of the SF and her not meeting my needs. We have went on for four years already like this. However, with my latest realization about my insecurities and acting jealous/controlling and not realizing I was doing this over the last four years, I now feel extremely guilty. Because of this I have accepted that we are starting over and it may not be right for me to look at the last four years as counting towards a frustration point.

I wokeup on April 12 of this year and started finding the answers and realizing my issues and working on the R. This means I have been at it for almost two months (while learning how) and to four IC visits. I can see some progress as far as small improvements in conversations and some actions. I guess I will continue the IC for another month and then try to bring my W into the C as MC.

I will then give the MC some time to work (maybe 2 - 3 months). If I am not seeing dramatic improvements at this point, then I will have to re-evaluate our situation at this point. I understand that it has taken us four years to get where we are; but, I would hope that it will not take another four to get it back on track. It should not take this long!

I do not know how I will be able to handle it if my W ends up never needing SF and in turn feels she does not have to provide SF to me. But I guess at this point (after the MC) it will be her choice and not mine because I would have done all that I believe I could do.

I do not know if this is good, reasonable or whatever. All I know is that I am hurting on a constant basis and my W seems to be numb to any pain through denial and claiming that there is nothing wrong with our M, but there is something wrong with me (my insecurities). I guess if these things do not improve with a clear change from myself, then I probably should not "burden" her with my insecurities anyfurther.

Thanks, EL