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Hey there teetering. I am sorry that you have had reason to be here. But, I am glad you found MB. You will not find a nicer or more capable group of people to help and guide you. At first, you will "hear" things that will anger you or make you feel defensive. What we eventually all realize, is there was truth to it. It is actually a very good feeling to realize that things you were doing, that you thought were ok, were actually lovebusters or were hurting your marriage.
I do get by what you are writing that your H is not playing by the same rules of "honesty." The problem is that you can't MAKE him do anything differently. You BOTH have to make the changes necessary to bring about positive behaviors to correct the problems. MelodyLane is one of the best here to help you do that.
Just like ML says there is no such thing as privacy in marriage. Really, there needs to be transparency on both parts for both people in the relationship to feel the security. It seems that your husbands need for "privacy" is really secrecy. There is a huge difference. Things have a way of hiding behind secrecy.
Please accept the fact that it took two of you to create these issues. You may be right in everything that you say, but I also know that you are also doing things that you might not even realize, that are bringing certain insecure responses from your H. Are you willing to face your own mistakes and lovebusters? It is hard to face at first, but actually very empowering once you realize that you can make changes to help make things better.
Stick around teetering, you will get the absolute best advice and guidance here!!! Thanks, I appreciate that. I know I'm busting his love chops, and frequently it's quite intentional. I'd like to change that, or get the strength to leave him.
Last edited by teetering; 01/01/13 03:16 PM.
Married 7 years
In our early 30s
2 kiddos
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Well, the FB chatting is likely one thing, the incessant calling to the godsister and and what not. I don't doubt emotional affairs and physical ones wouldn't blow my mind in surprise because I feel as though he has boundary issues. I don't know and have never desired to track him although I know he lies regularly. Playing detective is not my game and holds no appeal. I just want honesty. I may not have seen your questions. Which are you referring? Why would you expect "honesty" from someone you say "lies regularly?" Is that very rational? I don't see that you have given this much clear thought at all and I think that is part of the problem. You seem to have misguided "romantic" notions of the value of blind trust that is regularly pimped on the chick channels. But blind trust does not lead to intimate, integrated trusting marriages; it creates the OPPOSITE. AS YOU HAVE LEARNED IN YOUR OWN MARRIAGE. On the other hand, if you spied on your husband, who lies alot, you would be able to help him overcome that problem by holding him accountable. You can't very well hold him accountable if you don't know what is doing. It is not a lack of trust that ruins marriages, but a lack of boundaries. If you can grasp that concept, we might make some headway here, otherwise, I don't see how we can help you. Can you put aside your emotions and use reason and logic?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Are you married?
If so, how long?
Any children?
Have either of you had any affairs?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I don't know and have never desired to track him although I know he lies regularly. Playing detective is not my game and holds no appeal. I just want honesty. He is not honest, but you just want honesty? That is not really common sense is it? This position will just loop around and never be resolved, ever. Saying you are 'Just wanting' something, but you aren't prepared to go get it, is a very lazy attitude to your marriage. I 'just want' a promotion. So does it make sense to quit working? No it does not. Everyone here is trying to tell you to stop bellyaching about how unpleasant you find the work of transparency and snooping. Well tough. If you want transparency, you'll need to snoop. Get to work. If you believe in openness and transparency in marriage, then neither of you have the right to hide anything. It means that you both have the right to look at EVERYTHING to do with each other. To check every nook and cranny of your marriage regularly, even if nothing is especially wrong. It's silly not to look for each other. From what I hear you are convinced the deepest corners of your husbands life is filled with dusty lies - but you can't be bothered to clear out those corners and hold him accountable. Meanwhile he is upholding his end and checking that your life IS accountable to him. So he is getting the result he wants - no lies from you. I suggest you follow his lead. Curious though, that the reason for starting this thread was not 'My husband keeps secrets from me' But rather 'My husband snoops on me' I would have thought the suspected secrecy far more alarming than snooping, which would only prove your trustworthiness, right? I don't find your complacency regarding his secretiveness at all believable, either.
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
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Well, the FB chatting is likely one thing, the incessant calling to the godsister and and what not. I don't doubt emotional affairs and physical ones wouldn't blow my mind in surprise because I feel as though he has boundary issues. I don't know and have never desired to track him although I know he lies regularly. Playing detective is not my game and holds no appeal. I just want honesty. I may not have seen your questions. Which are you referring? Why would you expect "honesty" from someone you say "lies regularly?" Is that very rational? I don't see that you have given this much clear thought at all and I think that is part of the problem. You seem to have misguided "romantic" notions of the value of blind trust that is regularly pimped on the chick channels. But blind trust does not lead to intimate, integrated trusting marriages; it creates the OPPOSITE. AS YOU HAVE LEARNED IN YOUR OWN MARRIAGE. On the other hand, if you spied on your husband, who lies alot, you would be able to help him overcome that problem by holding him accountable. You can't very well hold him accountable if you don't know what is doing. It is not a lack of trust that ruins marriages, but a lack of boundaries. If you can grasp that concept, we might make some headway here, otherwise, I don't see how we can help you. Can you put aside your emotions and use reason and logic? I don't expect honesty from him. Perhaps I didn't make that clear. I said I want honesty(in a relationship, not necessarily with him). And so, if honesty is not to be had in this relationship, with the building and maturing of the two of us as people, then I see no reason to stay. My expectation was that overtime we would grow in love and intimacy together, and that honesty would become an acceptable way of being for us with growth overtime. We have read Dr. Harley's books together and many others, and I have been consumed with improving us since we've been together. This is really my problem, as he has always told me that he feels that things are mostly stellar between us. I completely get that lack of boundaries creates issues, as I stated, he has them. In any case, I'm all ears. Like I said, I'd like to either learn how to love him or get the strength to move on.
Married 7 years
In our early 30s
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But the things you are doing do not elicit honesty in him. Nothing you are doing serves to achieve the result you say you want because you are not using logic. You want "honesty" but you want the right to privacy [for you, not him], you expect honesty from someone you say "lies."
And how would you even know if he is honest or not if you refuse to snoop on him? You believe in blind trust, so as far as you know everything he says is true.
You say you have read Dr Harley's books, so why haven't you used any of his advice? Which book do you have?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I don't know and have never desired to track him although I know he lies regularly. Playing detective is not my game and holds no appeal. I just want honesty. He is not honest, but you just want honesty? That is not really common sense is it? This position will just loop around and never be resolved, ever. Saying you are 'Just wanting' something, but you aren't prepared to go get it, is a very lazy attitude to your marriage. I 'just want' a promotion. So does it make sense to quit working? No it does not. Everyone here is trying to tell you to stop bellyaching about how unpleasant you find the work of transparency and snooping. Well tough. If you want transparency, you'll need to snoop. Get to work. If you believe in openness and transparency in marriage, then neither of you have the right to hide anything. It means that you both have the right to look at EVERYTHING to do with each other. To check every nook and cranny of your marriage regularly, even if nothing is especially wrong. It's silly not to look for each other. From what I hear you are convinced the deepest corners of your husbands life is filled with dusty lies - but you can't be bothered to clear out those corners and hold him accountable. Meanwhile he is upholding his end and checking that your life IS accountable to him. So he is getting the result he wants - no lies from you. I suggest you follow his lead. Curious though, that the reason for starting this thread was not 'My husband keeps secrets from me' But rather 'My husband snoops on me' I would have thought the suspected secrecy far more alarming than snooping, which would only prove your trustworthiness, right? I don't find your complacency regarding his secretiveness at all believable, either. Gosh, I honestly don't need the newest technology to keep me above ground. Furthermore, no amount of keylogging and spying will keep someone who wants to cheat or be away from you with you, and I suppose that's why I don't desire to go that route. If my husband wants to be with someone else, I'm quite sure he'll find a way. I can't imagine my life literally tracking him down for the the next 50 years to ensure that he sticks around. Is this really the expectation? Why would you do something like that? Perhaps I just don't value marriage in the same way.
Married 7 years
In our early 30s
2 kiddos
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Why would you do something like that? Perhaps I just don't value marriage in the same way. We agree. And this is why your marriage is so bad. You don't have a realistic notion of what creates a happy, romantic, integrated marriage. But you think you do.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Well, the FB chatting is likely one thing, the incessant calling to the godsister and and what not. I don't doubt emotional affairs and physical ones wouldn't blow my mind in surprise because I feel as though he has boundary issues. I don't know and have never desired to track him although I know he lies regularly. Playing detective is not my game and holds no appeal. I just want honesty. I may not have seen your questions. Which are you referring? Why would you expect "honesty" from someone you say "lies regularly?" Is that very rational? I don't see that you have given this much clear thought at all and I think that is part of the problem. You seem to have misguided "romantic" notions of the value of blind trust that is regularly pimped on the chick channels. But blind trust does not lead to intimate, integrated trusting marriages; it creates the OPPOSITE. AS YOU HAVE LEARNED IN YOUR OWN MARRIAGE. On the other hand, if you spied on your husband, who lies alot, you would be able to help him overcome that problem by holding him accountable. You can't very well hold him accountable if you don't know what is doing. It is not a lack of trust that ruins marriages, but a lack of boundaries. If you can grasp that concept, we might make some headway here, otherwise, I don't see how we can help you. Can you put aside your emotions and use reason and logic? What ML just said was a very difficult concept for me to get through my emotional, gaslighted fog. Your H has been very good at getting things the way he wants them to be by getting you to accept his behaviors. You had to change somewhere to accept this by him. Your emotions can override logic and reality. You seem to be very strong and capable, so maybe this won't be so difficult for you. There is more than one boundary here to consider. He may have poor boundaries around other women, which is a huge one to acknowledge. You have your own to set. You can't just "trust" him. Now, you see he really hasn't earned it. Blind trust seemed to be what you were supposed to do, but now, can you see where it it not realistic? I agree with ML, I would put snoops in place to ascertain exactly what he has been up to and is up to. Then you will be armed with the information to be able to make the right decisions on how to handle it all. He has not been forthright with you, and you deserve to know what is going on in your life.
BS Me 47,WH 49
DS's x3 17, 10, 7
Multiple D-Days
No disclosure by WH. No EP's, no transparency, no guilt or remorse either.
Plan C DOES NOT WORK!
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You are only assuming he is lying to you. You have no proof and can't be bothered to look for any. Complacency in relationships often lead to Disrespectful Judgements such as these. It is a DJ to presume lying without even checking! You would rather leave the marriage than check. I advise on these forums daily and I've seen some misguided attitudes..... But I have simply never before seen laziness and a disregard for marriage on this scale as I see here. Perhaps I just don't value marriage in the same way. Pretty much, yeah.
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
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teetering, do yoo value marriage? Do you want to try to turn your marriage into a good, loving, trustworthy, fulfilling one? I know you are upset right now, but you are going to have to change some things, starting with your mindset and some of your ideas and opinions on "what you think is right." They can really help you here, but you have to be open to the knowledge!! You will be amazed at what you thought you knew, that you really just had no clue about!!!
BS Me 47,WH 49
DS's x3 17, 10, 7
Multiple D-Days
No disclosure by WH. No EP's, no transparency, no guilt or remorse either.
Plan C DOES NOT WORK!
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Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 80
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OP
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Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 80 |
Well, the FB chatting is likely one thing, the incessant calling to the godsister and and what not. I don't doubt emotional affairs and physical ones wouldn't blow my mind in surprise because I feel as though he has boundary issues. I don't know and have never desired to track him although I know he lies regularly. Playing detective is not my game and holds no appeal. I just want honesty. I may not have seen your questions. Which are you referring? Why would you expect "honesty" from someone you say "lies regularly?" Is that very rational? I don't see that you have given this much clear thought at all and I think that is part of the problem. You seem to have misguided "romantic" notions of the value of blind trust that is regularly pimped on the chick channels. But blind trust does not lead to intimate, integrated trusting marriages; it creates the OPPOSITE. AS YOU HAVE LEARNED IN YOUR OWN MARRIAGE. On the other hand, if you spied on your husband, who lies alot, you would be able to help him overcome that problem by holding him accountable. You can't very well hold him accountable if you don't know what is doing. It is not a lack of trust that ruins marriages, but a lack of boundaries. If you can grasp that concept, we might make some headway here, otherwise, I don't see how we can help you. Can you put aside your emotions and use reason and logic? What ML just said was a very difficult concept for me to get through my emotional, gaslighted fog. Your H has been very good at getting things the way he wants them to be by getting you to accept his behaviors. You had to change somewhere to accept this by him. Your emotions can override logic and reality. You seem to be very strong and capable, so maybe this won't be so difficult for you. There is more than one boundary here to consider. He may have poor boundaries around other women, which is a huge one to acknowledge. You have your own to set. You can't just "trust" him. Now, you see he really hasn't earned it. Blind trust seemed to be what you were supposed to do, but now, can you see where it it not realistic? I agree with ML, I would put snoops in place to ascertain exactly what he has been up to and is up to. Then you will be armed with the information to be able to make the right decisions on how to handle it all. He has not been forthright with you, and you deserve to know what is going on in your life. Something to think about. And I suppose I just never considered that truthfulness could be taught to someone in this way. My mother was quite invasive when I was teen. She'd go in my backpack and read my letters and such. I saw it is quite the violation of our relationship. It was damaging to us, and I see parallels. We still have a relationship that is not as open as my relationships with others who have themselves been more self disclosing. A difference in temperament and relationship expectation, surely.
Married 7 years
In our early 30s
2 kiddos
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And oh yeah, don't let fear guide you down the wrong path in dealing with all of this.........
BS Me 47,WH 49
DS's x3 17, 10, 7
Multiple D-Days
No disclosure by WH. No EP's, no transparency, no guilt or remorse either.
Plan C DOES NOT WORK!
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Different relationship attitudes are summed up by Dr Harley below. Buyers put work into finding solutions while a freeloader will quit a marriage simply because things are not happening 'naturally' or on their own. While your H may be doing things of concern, there is absolutely no one with your methods can ever hope to a) find out for sure or b) fix it I hope this is of some help: A discussion about one of my favorite Harley books !!!!!
Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders
Freeloader is unwilling to put much effort into the care of his or her partner in a romantic relationship. He or she does only what comes naturally and expects only what comes naturally. It's like a person who tries to live in a house without paying rent or doing anything to improve it unless the person is in the mood to do so.
Renter is willing to provide limited care as long as it's in his or her best interest. The romantic relationship is considered tentative, so the care is viewed as short-term. It's like a person who rents a house and is willing to stay as long as the conditions seem fair, or until he or she finds something better. The person is willing to pay reasonable rent and keep the house clean but is not willing to make repairs or improvements. It's the landlord's job to keep the place attractive enough for the renter to stay and continue paying rent.
Buyer is willing to demonstrate an extraordinary sense of care by making permanent changes in his or her own behavior and lifestyle to make the romantic relationship mutually fulfilling. Solutions to problems are long-term solutions and must work well for both partners because the romantic relationship is viewed as exclusive and permanent. It's like a person who buys a house for life with a willingness to make repairs that accomodate changing needs, painting the walls, installing new carper, replacing the roof, and even doinf some remodeling so that it can be comfortable and useful. [quote] Renters believe Our relationship is temporary. You may be right for me today and wrong for me tomorrow.Buyers believe We are together for life.Renters believe Our relationship should be fair. What I get should balance what I give.Buyers believe We both contribute whatever it takes to make our relationship successful.Renters believe As needs change, the relationship may end if needs are difficult to meet.Buyers believe As needs change, we will make adjustments to meet new needs.Renters believe Criticism may prompt me to change if it's worthwhile for me to do so.Buyers believe Criticism indicates a need for change.Renters believe Sacrifice is reasonable as long as it's fair.Buyers believe Sacrifice is dangerous and to be avoided.Renters believe Short-term fixes are fine.Buyers believe long-term solutions are necessary. According to Harley
most happily married couples have worked their way up from Freeloaders to Renters and finally to Buyers.
He says the problem arises when partners do not eventually become Buyers. Some more Willard to chew on:
"The real commitment of marriage is not a commitment to stay regardless of how you are treated. It's a commitment to care for each other regardless of the circumstances you find yourselves in."
also....
"Marriage means that each spouse is commited to make a GREATER effort to care for each other than they were making BEFORE marriage, a GREATER effort to meet each other's intimate needs."
really something to think about for all of us .... ... which brings us to POJA
which is adopting the Buyer's strategy
means you must consider both your interests ~and~ your partner's interests
up to the point of bilateral enthusiastic agreement
which means NO ONE sacrifices their happiness for the other's .... you seek mutual happiness The good doctor says that couples who do not practice POJA skills gradually develop incompatable lifestyles.... Think of POJA as the ~Holy Grail~ for creating a marriage of mutual compatibility
and enthusiastic support for major decisions implies a respect for the long-term happiness of both partners
this does not mean compromise is not to be found ... but it must be enthusiastic and genuine ... which eliminates sacrifice which is a disingenuous method of manipulating one's spouse
every sacrifice we ask of our partner or of ourselves is a step ~away~ from a mutually enjoyable relationship
think of the relationship ~itself~ as a third person in the marriage ... and choosing what is best for the relationship instead of what is best for only one partner
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
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teetering, do yoo value marriage? Do you want to try to turn your marriage into a good, loving, trustworthy, fulfilling one? I know you are upset right now, but you are going to have to change some things, starting with your mindset and some of your ideas and opinions on "what you think is right." They can really help you here, but you have to be open to the knowledge!! You will be amazed at what you thought you knew, that you really just had no clue about!!! I value my relationship with my husband as a person and I'd like it to get better. I do value marriage, but I'm not willing to twist myself inside out and upside down much further in order to preserve this particular one. I'm eager to learn, despite what it may seem.
Last edited by teetering; 01/01/13 03:55 PM.
Married 7 years
In our early 30s
2 kiddos
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Posts: 92,985 Likes: 1
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[
My mother was quite invasive when I was teen. She'd go in my backpack and read my letters and such. I saw it is quite the violation of our relationship. It was damaging to us, and I see parallels. We still have a relationship that is not as open as my relationships with others who have themselves been more self disclosing. A difference in temperament and relationship expectation, surely. But you are not a child anymore. Your mother did not "violate" your privacy because a parent has a right and a responsibility to know everything her child does. You are a grown up now. Secrecy has no place in marriage.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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A mother can take it too far...... I know that when I check-up on my kids, it is for protection of them. I try not to cross the boundary, but they also have to be fair when setting theirs. I am sure your mother meant well..... Maybe she didn't realize how controlling she got with it. I don't know...
I do know that it is different in a marriage. Neither of you should have to snoop. It should be transparent and gladly accepted. I know that sounds odd. But, think about it this way... Occasional checking a keylogger or cell phone records should be enthusiastically desired as it helps foster security and truthfullness. It protects your marriage. It should never be secretive. It just is important in this day of technology, different avenues of communication, etc.....
BS Me 47,WH 49
DS's x3 17, 10, 7
Multiple D-Days
No disclosure by WH. No EP's, no transparency, no guilt or remorse either.
Plan C DOES NOT WORK!
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teetering, do yoo value marriage? Do you want to try to turn your marriage into a good, loving, trustworthy, fulfilling one? I know you are upset right now, but you are going to have to change some things, starting with your mindset and some of your ideas and opinions on "what you think is right." They can really help you here, but you have to be open to the knowledge!! You will be amazed at what you thought you knew, that you really just had no clue about!!! I value my relationship with my husband as a person and I'd like it to get better. I do value marriage, but I'm not willing to twist myself inside out and upside down much further in order to preserve this particular one. I'm eager to learn, despite what it may seem. If you can't fix your problems in this marriage, you will just bring the same problems into the next marriage. Compatibility does not happen by accident; it is a learned behavior. There is no reason to throw your marriage away. All of the issues you cited above are issues this program can resolve. But you have to actually do the work. It doesn't happen by fairy magic.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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You are only assuming he is lying to you. You have no proof and can't be bothered to look for any. Complacency in relationships often lead to Disrespectful Judgements such as these. It is a DJ to presume lying without even checking! You would rather leave the marriage than check. I advise on these forums daily and I've seen some misguided attitudes..... But I have simply never before seen laziness and a disregard for marriage on this scale as I see here. Perhaps I just don't value marriage in the same way. Pretty much, yeah. Proof has come to me in the course of our relationship. I've never needed to actively look. I trust that a liar will eventually expose himself. The question is what to do about it. Rather or not he is lying to me is not the reason I'd leave in any case, and so perhaps that's where the confusion is. You're catching me at the tail end of a dramatic saga...don't judge.  I've hardly been complacent, but giving up may be more like it.
Married 7 years
In our early 30s
2 kiddos
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It should never be secretive. Just want to point out that snooping *IS* secretive, or it is not snooping. It should be secret.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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