I'm new to MB. Read a number of articles that I have enjoyed, but saw one on keylogging and was appalled. My husband has repeatively snooped around on me, and everytime he has, my feelings for him decrease. I'm disgusted with myself that I married a man so insecure and paranoid. We've been together 12 years. I have never cheated on him or even actively considered it. I trust that he hasn't on me, although his general lack of trust leads me to believe that shaddy behavior is in his nature more so than not. What am I missing about this snooping thing? Someone convince me that all of his slick ways have been for our good, and not a lusty desire for control and power born out of inborn insecurity and personal feelings of guilt and shame.

Welcome to MarriageBuilders, teetering.

What has your husband said when you have discussed this issue with him?

He's apologized and promised to stop. I'll assume he has until I unsuspectingly find out he has not. He's reluctantly(a couple of times) exchanged passwords with me, although I honestly never have wanted his beyond brief moments of retailatory feelings. He likely changes his passwords soon after. I know he has at least once. He is quite secretive, which burns me even more. It's why I feel like his behavior is a power play; a means of one upping; a predatory way of gaining a personal sense of security.

But what does he say about why he is checking up on you? What are the underlying reasons that he gives?

Ahh, yes. He doesn't trust anyone(one of his more attractive features)! He was raised in a dysfunctional family. His LD semi ex gf of a couple of months cheated on him 15 years ago. He thought we were too good to be true. I'm on the internet more than usual. He can't believe I'd stay with him after such and such a fight. You name it, so has he.

I think you should do your best to make sure he is not insecure by opening up your life to him completely. He should have access to everything. Nothing should be kept secret in a healthy marriage. However, he should open up his life to you too.

If your husband feels insecure about something what are you doing to alleviate that feeling?

A good way to help him trust you is to open up your life to him. A keylogger would be a great way to help him feel more secure about you. Does he know where you are at all times when you are apart? Do you have good boundaries around members of the opposite sex?

It is not a lack of trust that ruins marriages, but a lack of boundaries. Do you have good boundaries?

Teetering, so far, you've described him & his conduct as insecure, paranoid, slick, shady, secretive and predatory. That seems to speak of something running deeper than just your aversion to being snooped upon. Seems to me that your thread is probably better suited to the "MarriageBuilders 101" section of the forums, as your issue is not regarding snooping techniques per se, but regarding underlying, more fundamental issues in your marriage relationship. So I was about to recommend that you suggest that the Moderators move your post up to that section, but it looks like they've beaten me to it.

I'm sorry, I don't follow this last bit. Can you explain more?

My life has always been open to him. Intimacy defines a relationship to me. I have rarely received a modicum of reciprocation from him, and often blatant hostility in return for my transparency. He has no desire to open up to me, as he defines himself(perhaps even prides himself) as being someone who does not need intimacy.

Sure, sorry for the vague response. He has simply come up with any reason to snoop. [b][/b] Countless reasons.

Snooping, to me, signifies distrust and insecurity. Sometimes it's warranted, and sometimes not. But I don't understand how snooping falls under the Policy of Joint Agreement, or how I could frame his behavior in way that makes me feel as though it's loving vs. despicable.

And I'm angry and attempting to avoid an argument with him right now. I apologize if that's spilling all over the place.

Ok, if your life is open to him then how do you explain your hostility about his snooping? Why the disrespectful comments about his "insecurity" and "dysfunctional family?" You sound very hostile about HIM. Could that be why he is hostile?

What does he find while snooping that causes his hostility? Are you doing something that upsets him?

Snooping wouldn't work, though, if the other person knew about it. IT would defeat the entire purpose.

Snooping ALLEVIATES distrust and insecurity. When your spouse can see you using trustworthy behavior behind his back, it CREATES trust and security. So why would you object?

here

Snooping: Is it wrong? Or, is it the right thing to do in marriage?

So he expects you to be OH with him, you are transparent with him but becomes angry with you.........but he is not being transparent with you? Like he is hiding and being secretive?

My life is open to him in a way that reflects an egalitarian relationship. I take deep offense to being sniffed and snooped about, and lied to. Snooping is covert dishonesty. If he would like to know about my life, he is welcomed to ask. If he has trouble asking, then perhaps a psychologist could help.

Yes, I am hostile towards him. I have convinced myself that his behavior is fundamental to who he is as a person(insecure, paranoid, and slick) and I find it incredibly difficult to like him on a consistent basis with those things running through my mind. Yet, I do love him and want better for us. It's part of why I have stayed.

Over the years he has found a number of things. When we first began talking(online), he found out that I was still speaking to my ex occasionally. As we weren't dating and had never met at the time, it just wasn't something we had talked about. He eventually demanded that I stop speaking to my ex all together and I did. Haven't spoken to him in well over a decade. About 5 years ago, he found a diary that I was writing about the people I had dated and some messages on a forum after he'd been keylogging our computer. Some of what I wrote was fictitious for effect and some of it was true. I've always liked writing and have a lifetime worth of this kind of stuff prior to meeting him. In any case, I wrote about a past boyfriend who I had feelings for at the time and he went bananas. I told him if he didn't want to know what my thoughts were, perhaps he'd like to continue avoiding me in conversation, but additionally, not keylogg our computer. I have always been more than happy to discuss with him the inner recesses of my mind, and would love to hear about the same from him. There is nothing that I'd like to withhold from him in my heart or mind, but playing the game of cat and mouse seems so much more fun to him. The element of surprise and shock just doesn't do it for me the way it seems to do him. I'd prefer the more boring route of the "just talk".

I've been met with incredibly threatening behavior upon attempting to truly let him in leaving me nowhere to go. I can't talk out loud to him, and I am not free to write without fear of retribution either.

There is nothing else. I have never come close to cheating on him in our marriage. I protect us from outsiders as best I can. He is an entirely different story.[b][/b]

Hmm. I just don't observe that to be true. Snooping may temporarily relieve the feeling, yes-in the person who was originally doing the snooping. I agree with that, but I don't value the temporary relief. The relieving feeling is at the other spouse's expense(why I feel it predatory) and the distrust spreads like a disease. If you don't trust me and would have the audacity to track me down like a pet or caged animal, why would I trust you?

I have never led him to believe that I am untrustworthy within our marriage anymore than my going to the bathroom alone and closing the door would lead him to think in that direction. I refuse to take responsibility for behaviors that were evident in him long before we even met in person, although he'd like me to.

We both work from home and are together, literally, all day and night long. Which doesn't make cheating impossible, of course, but nonetheless.

Your hostility to his snooping is incredibly suspicious so I can see why he snoops. Your reaction is a huge red flag. Dr. Bill Harley, clinical psychologist and founder of Marriage Builders would have this to say about your behavior:




Yet, snooping would make him LESS insecure and paranoid. Your hostile reaction only makes him MORE insecure. It would make any normal person very suspicious. If my husband felt insecure, I would WELCOME him putting a keylogger on my computer. Why would I care?

NOTHING in marriage should be kept secret. NOTHING. People who have nothing to hide, don't hide.

Here is what Harley advises in situations like yours:



ADDRESS the red flags with him. Instead of being sneaky and cagey, ask him what you are doing that sets off his red flags and resolve those issues.


Of course he would be upset to hear about your feelings for another man. This is information he has a right to know. And your "writing fictitious stuff for effect" sounds like a load of baloney. We have had many, many cheaters use the same excuse to cover up affairs. Another red flag for your husband.


You just contradicted yourself. The title of your thread is that you are "FURIOUS" that your husband snoops; your posts indicate your fury that he has read your work behind your back so it is not true that "there is nothing you would like to withhold from him in your heart and mind."

As an outside observer I can tell you that your behavior is very sneaky which explains why he doesn't trust you. If you want to be trusted then STOP acting so hostile when he snoops.

Again, snooping will increase his trust of you. You should WELCOME it, not hide from it. Your reaction would make anyone suspicious.

Your reaction should scare him to death. It is a huge red flag. People who have nothing to hide, don't hide. If you want to be trusted, then you should welcome his snooping. You don't.

He has a right to know every thing you do. He is your husband. And the fact that you RESENT this should indicate to him that you are doing something wrong.

No, he is not transparent with me. Even after finding nothing from years of tracking me, he could hardly agree to exchanging passwords with me on FB and email. When he did, he gave me the opportunity to briefly look at what was there(LOTS of back and forths with numerous women he knows in private chat and email), and then he changed his passwords again, which surprises me not and falls right in line with what I imagine of a perpetual snooper, right or wrong. I told him that I do not talk to men(including old friends) in private chat or email and he was shocked to find that to be true, but it changed nothing. One girl, whom he called and emailed for nearly a year, actually reached out to me on FB and told me to tell him that she couldn't answer his call(as in, he was calling to talk to her downstairs in our home while I was upstairs working). At that point, I told him that he needed to tell me every conversation that he was having with someone of the opposite sex and he agreed after kicking and scream and claiming HIS right to privacy! Well, he went out of town last year for a work related venture quite close to where this godsister lives now(she used to live in our town but moved last year), and the two of us share a cell.

When he got back I thought I was going to FB on our phone, but he was logged into his account. The first thing I see is him reaching out to her, after he had told me that he hadn't spoken to her in nearly a year. The conversation was flat and benign, which is beside the point. He lied to me about talking to her, and this is the way it has been ad nauseam. I don't need keylogging software and tracking devices, I need a grown up who wants what I want: a mature, intimate relationship between secure equals. /rant

teetering, I get the feeling that you are only here to get validation for your demonization of your husband. But you won't find that here. Your husband has done nothing wrong.

If you are here to resolve your marriage problems we can help you with that, but demonizing your husband will not solve your problems.

I'm sorry, I don't agree with you Melody. Although, I do respect and appreciate your opinion. My anger is at his sneaky behavior and his reactions to my disclosures(cursing, throwing things at me, telling me to never again speak to people I've known my entire life, hiding things from me about himself and expecting to know everything about me). I don't need anything else to be angry at. He was like this long before we even met in person and before we were dating. If my reaction makes him suspicious and this is the reason upon the reason that he has for doing what he does, then that will have to be. I will never feel comfortable about a man sneaking up behind me and digging in my pockets. This is a relationship between two adults. I don't see it as my role to appease him without anything in return. I don't believe in unconditional love.

But you don't have that, do you? If the absence of keyloggers, tracking devices creates a secure, "mature" relationship between equals, why do you not have that? Rather, you have a relationship that has no trust because you are both keeping secrets.

See, the people who are posting to you have happy, secure, intimate marriages. Are you here to get solutions for your marriage problems or are you just here to gripe about your marriage?

My husband has done something wrong within our marriage because there are two of us and one of us believes so. That you would find his behavior acceptable is fine, but he is married to me and I set the boundaries of acceptability within our marital contract just as well as he does.

And yes, I would appreciate some validation. He has violated my trust and continues to do so. I would like to love him, but it is becoming difficult to stomach him.

But you *ARE* sneaky. His snooping is productive and healthy to your marriage; your sneaking and your resistance to his snooping is unhealthy. Of course his angry outbursts are not healthy, but that does not mean that your secret behavior on the internet is healthy. He has a right to know everything you do. And your FURY [read the title of the thread!!] about that is a HUGE RED FLAG.

And you can disagree with me all you want, but I will point out that your best thinking has led you to this terrible place. You have NO IDEA how to have a intimate, healthy marriage. Your marriage is TERRIBLE and you can't blame that on your husband.

We can help you with that if you will listen. But you will have to take the cotton out of your ears and put it in your mouth.

You have BOTH done alot wrong. Do you want help with that or are you just here to b*tch about your husband?

Are you married?

If so, how long?

Any children?

Have either of you had any affairs?

I'm under no illusions. I do not believe it is the absence of those devices that creates a secure marriage. Rather, I believe, it's two, secure, mature people, who do. There are many secure couples who don't track each other. I have been blessed to witness happy marriages throughout my life that existed before the time of personal private eyeing. I have specifically stated that I am not keeping secrets from my husband. I'm not sure what you are meaning when you say we both are. When someone says that they do not want to know something, how does one respectfully go about telling them anyway?

We have been together 12 years, married 8 with two children. And no physical affairs that I'm aware of. No emotional affairs on my part, but he crossed the line with this godsister of his and a couple of other women as far as I'm concerned. Nothing that he fully admits to and I'm ok with what he has told me, so long as it's actually true.

How is his snooping healthy if it inspires to me up and leave with our children? How is it healthy if I causes me to feel insecure, leaving both of us side eyeing each other?

Apparently I was correct when I made the observation that you are just here to get validation for the demonization of your husband and not here to resolve your marriage problems?

Ok, can we all agree that your husband is Satan incarnate and move on from that point?

Would you like to have a better marriage with satan? If so, we can help you with that.

It is your REACTION that is unhealthy. People who have nothing to hide, don't hide. You are hiding something. Apparently, it is so important that you would destroy your children's lives over it.

Allowing your husband to snoop to PROVE your trustworthiness does not make one "insecure" unless they are hiding something.

Haha....Hey, that's really all I was getting at and I'm glad we've reached a point of true agreement. I feel alive again.

I actually believe my husband is an OK guy, but I've come to believe that he's just not OK with me. It's a terrible feeling to live with, and I'd like to convince myself differently, but then I wonder why I'd like to do such a thing. Like I said, it's very hard for me to like him, and really, it always has been.

He's had my passwords to everything I'm on for years now. I leave my accounts open. It's been years. I've no doubt he keylogs our phone and GPS tracks me and probably has spy gear staring me back in my face through a small hole that he drilled in our bedroom wall unbeknownst to me as I unsuspectingly slept like a baby. I have nothing to hide from him, and never have and still don't. But I will certainly leave him to maintain my dignity and self respect. I don't value marriage or him so much as to allow this much longer. One of us has to change.

He's been getting his way for years. Now what? Where's the point where I realize this is all fabulous and love him for the great person that I'm sure he is, but just can't manage to reveal? UGH! Hostile again....I'm trying though.[b][/b]At what point does he wake up a realize that I've never and would never cheat on him and stop the spying and paranoia and focus on realizing an actual relationship based on love and respect and growth? I have done nothing to him to deserve his suspicions. He would likely tell you the same as he has told me that he does trust me, just not people in general. And yet, this is something I'm to happily endure. I don't see the rationale. If something burns your spouse to pieces, you probably ought not do it, yes?

Teetering, let's approach this from a different perspective.

GIVEN that your husband is, let's say, insecure about your internet usage, what would you have him do, if not monitor your activities. (Yes, it might be nice to have some pixie dust sprinkled on him to remove that particular element of his psyche that you find invasive, but we're talking real-world here, so let's move on.)

Would you have him resentfully cease, cowing in the face of your displeasure?

Would you have him reluctantly stop, unconvinced of the wisdom, but choosing to yield rather than risk alienating you?

Either way would entail a sacrifice on his part (of a security item he NEEDS). The fastest way to start a downward spiral of a marriage would be through having a spouse feel that he is unfairly sacrificing his needs for the needs of his spouse.

I'm not even going to ask you, I'm going to tell you: You do NOT want that process to commence.

I just had a minor unintentional "snoop" by my bride, and she raised a concern about something (on this SITE, of all places) that I was doing. It brought me a sense of pride that after almost forty years of marriage, my bride thought enough of the reason for my actions, that she asked me to explain.

It might help you to understand that in protecting your marriage (maybe without cause), you husband is doing what he can to ensure your children's optimal future. Perhaps your acquiescence might be more palatable couched in terms of your cooperating in that endeavor.

Thats great! As long as you understand and accept that there is no such thing as a right to privacy in marriage. I would stop with the hostility and ask him to tell you what you can do to help him trust you. You want to be trusted? Then ask him what you can do to help him feel more trusting. Reacting with hostility and disrespect only INSPIRES distrust.


Do you want help repairing your marriage or not? We can help you with this, but I am not going to waste my valuable time here if you are not serious.

What I would have him do is reciprocate. If his concern is for our children, then his concern must also be for their primary caretaker. If we are to be open, then let's be open. That means US, not me. As in, his passwords are mine, his accounts are open, etc...This is the only thing I could see as being just. He has vehemently disagreed with this proposal. In a strange twist of irony(not really), he doesn't want to be tracked either! The difference is, he doesn't acquiesce, because frankly, it's just not about securing his family or ensuring our family stays afloat. That's my role. He wants his privacy-demands it actually. As I said previously, he prides himself on being a private person, a detached person. I much prefer intimacy. And so the tables are oddly turned in which I am defensively protecting my sense of self from a person who does not trust, and does not care to be trusted. It's crazy making, which I why I'm having trouble wrapping my head around making this a lifelong ordeal.

When we were dating, my husband asked me all about my fantasies and dreams and what not, and naively I thought it was because he was interested in knowing. Perhaps he was. But there was a part of him that seemed to see that vulnerability as a target to be shot at, and shoot he did. For years he would coax me into opening up to him, only to immediately shoot me in the face with hateful language designed to lower my self esteem and question who I was. Naively, I persisted in letting him all the way in, but he has kept me at bay. This seems to be an issue of power and control for him, and I don't know how to maneuver around it or frame it differently.

Also, it is not simply internet usage. I went into work for a couple of months when I was pregnant last and he began the same infidelity accusations that he used to give me when we were dating. So really, this is a general issue of insecurity, rather than internet usage. The issue is the internet right now, only because we work from home and get little real time contact with people.

I see his secrecy as a huge red flag too. What is he doing that he wants to hide? I would put a keylogger on his computer and see what he is doing.

Did you see my questions above? Can you please answer?

Well, the FB chatting is likely one thing, the incessant calling to the godsister and and what not. I don't doubt emotional affairs and physical ones wouldn't blow my mind in surprise because I feel as though he has boundary issues. I don't know and have never desired to track him although I know he lies regularly. Playing detective is not my game and holds no appeal. I just want honesty. I may not have seen your questions. Which are you referring?

Hey there teetering. I am sorry that you have had reason to be here. But, I am glad you found MB. You will not find a nicer or more capable group of people to help and guide you. At first, you will "hear" things that will anger you or make you feel defensive. What we eventually all realize, is there was truth to it. It is actually a very good feeling to realize that things you were doing, that you thought were ok, were actually lovebusters or were hurting your marriage.

I do get by what you are writing that your H is not playing by the same rules of "honesty." The problem is that you can't MAKE him do anything differently. You BOTH have to make the changes necessary to bring about positive behaviors to correct the problems. MelodyLane is one of the best here to help you do that.

Just like ML says there is no such thing as privacy in marriage. Really, there needs to be transparency on both parts for both people in the relationship to feel the security. It seems that your husbands need for "privacy" is really secrecy. There is a huge difference. Things have a way of hiding behind secrecy.

Please accept the fact that it took two of you to create these issues. You may be right in everything that you say, but I also know that you are also doing things that you might not even realize, that are bringing certain insecure responses from your H. Are you willing to face your own mistakes and lovebusters? It is hard to face at first, but actually very empowering once you realize that you can make changes to help make things better.

Stick around teetering, you will get the absolute best advice and guidance here!!!

Thanks, I appreciate that. I know I'm busting his love chops, and frequently it's quite intentional. I'd like to change that, or get the strength to leave him.

Why would you expect "honesty" from someone you say "lies regularly?" Is that very rational?

I don't see that you have given this much clear thought at all and I think that is part of the problem. You seem to have misguided "romantic" notions of the value of blind trust that is regularly pimped on the chick channels. But blind trust does not lead to intimate, integrated trusting marriages; it creates the OPPOSITE. AS YOU HAVE LEARNED IN YOUR OWN MARRIAGE.

On the other hand, if you spied on your husband, who lies alot, you would be able to help him overcome that problem by holding him accountable. You can't very well hold him accountable if you don't know what is doing.

It is not a lack of trust that ruins marriages, but a lack of boundaries. If you can grasp that concept, we might make some headway here, otherwise, I don't see how we can help you.

Can you put aside your emotions and use reason and logic?

He is not honest, but you just want honesty?

That is not really common sense is it? This position will just loop around and never be resolved, ever. Saying you are 'Just wanting' something, but you aren't prepared to go get it, is a very lazy attitude to your marriage. I 'just want' a promotion. So does it make sense to quit working?

No it does not. Everyone here is trying to tell you to stop bellyaching about how unpleasant you find the work of transparency and snooping. Well tough. If you want transparency, you'll need to snoop. Get to work.

If you believe in openness and transparency in marriage, then neither of you have the right to hide anything.

It means that you both have the right to look at EVERYTHING to do with each other. To check every nook and cranny of your marriage regularly, even if nothing is especially wrong. It's silly not to look for each other.

From what I hear you are convinced the deepest corners of your husbands life is filled with dusty lies - but you can't be bothered to clear out those corners and hold him accountable.

Meanwhile he is upholding his end and checking that your life IS accountable to him. So he is getting the result he wants - no lies from you.

I suggest you follow his lead.

Curious though, that the reason for starting this thread was not 'My husband keeps secrets from me'
But rather 'My husband snoops on me'

I would have thought the suspected secrecy far more alarming than snooping, which would only prove your trustworthiness, right?

I don't find your complacency regarding his secretiveness at all believable, either.

I don't expect honesty from him. Perhaps I didn't make that clear. I said I want honesty(in a relationship, not necessarily with him). And so, if honesty is not to be had in this relationship, with the building and maturing of the two of us as people, then I see no reason to stay. My expectation was that overtime we would grow in love and intimacy together, and that honesty would become an acceptable way of being for us with growth overtime. We have read Dr. Harley's books together and many others, and I have been consumed with improving us since we've been together. This is really my problem, as he has always told me that he feels that things are mostly stellar between us. I completely get that lack of boundaries creates issues, as I stated, he has them. In any case, I'm all ears. Like I said, I'd like to either learn how to love him or get the strength to move on.

But the things you are doing do not elicit honesty in him. Nothing you are doing serves to achieve the result you say you want because you are not using logic. You want "honesty" but you want the right to privacy [for you, not him], you expect honesty from someone you say "lies."

And how would you even know if he is honest or not if you refuse to snoop on him? You believe in blind trust, so as far as you know everything he says is true.

You say you have read Dr Harley's books, so why haven't you used any of his advice? Which book do you have?

Gosh, I honestly don't need the newest technology to keep me above ground. Furthermore, no amount of keylogging and spying will keep someone who wants to cheat or be away from you with you, and I suppose that's why I don't desire to go that route. If my husband wants to be with someone else, I'm quite sure he'll find a way. I can't imagine my life literally tracking him down for the the next 50 years to ensure that he sticks around. Is this really the expectation? Why would you do something like that? Perhaps I just don't value marriage in the same way.

We agree. And this is why your marriage is so bad. You don't have a realistic notion of what creates a happy, romantic, integrated marriage. But you think you do.

What ML just said was a very difficult concept for me to get through my emotional, gaslighted fog. Your H has been very good at getting things the way he wants them to be by getting you to accept his behaviors. You had to change somewhere to accept this by him. Your emotions can override logic and reality. You seem to be very strong and capable, so maybe this won't be so difficult for you. There is more than one boundary here to consider. He may have poor boundaries around other women, which is a huge one to acknowledge. You have your own to set. You can't just "trust" him. Now, you see he really hasn't earned it. Blind trust seemed to be what you were supposed to do, but now, can you see where it it not realistic?

I agree with ML, I would put snoops in place to ascertain exactly what he has been up to and is up to. Then you will be armed with the information to be able to make the right decisions on how to handle it all. He has not been forthright with you, and you deserve to know what is going on in your life.

You are only assuming he is lying to you. You have no proof and can't be bothered to look for any.

Complacency in relationships often lead to Disrespectful Judgements such as these. It is a DJ to presume lying without even checking!

You would rather leave the marriage than check. I advise on these forums daily and I've seen some misguided attitudes.....

But I have simply never before seen laziness and a disregard for marriage on this scale as I see here.



Pretty much, yeah.

teetering, do yoo value marriage? Do you want to try to turn your marriage into a good, loving, trustworthy, fulfilling one? I know you are upset right now, but you are going to have to change some things, starting with your mindset and some of your ideas and opinions on "what you think is right." They can really help you here, but you have to be open to the knowledge!! You will be amazed at what you thought you knew, that you really just had no clue about!!!

Something to think about. And I suppose I just never considered that truthfulness could be taught to someone in this way.

My mother was quite invasive when I was teen. She'd go in my backpack and read my letters and such. I saw it is quite the violation of our relationship. It was damaging to us, and I see parallels. We still have a relationship that is not as open as my relationships with others who have themselves been more self disclosing. A difference in temperament and relationship expectation, surely.

And oh yeah, don't let fear guide you down the wrong path in dealing with all of this.........

Different relationship attitudes are summed up by Dr Harley below. Buyers put work into finding solutions while a freeloader will quit a marriage simply because things are not happening 'naturally' or on their own.

While your H may be doing things of concern, there is absolutely no one with your methods can ever hope to a) find out for sure or b) fix it

I hope this is of some help:

I value my relationship with my husband as a person and I'd like it to get better. I do value marriage, but I'm not willing to twist myself inside out and upside down much further in order to preserve this particular one. I'm eager to learn, despite what it may seem.

But you are not a child anymore. Your mother did not "violate" your privacy because a parent has a right and a responsibility to know everything her child does. You are a grown up now.

Secrecy has no place in marriage.

A mother can take it too far...... I know that when I check-up on my kids, it is for protection of them. I try not to cross the boundary, but they also have to be fair when setting theirs. I am sure your mother meant well..... Maybe she didn't realize how controlling she got with it. I don't know...

I do know that it is different in a marriage. Neither of you should have to snoop. It should be transparent and gladly accepted. I know that sounds odd. But, think about it this way... Occasional checking a keylogger or cell phone records should be enthusiastically desired as it helps foster security and truthfullness. It protects your marriage. It should never be secretive. It just is important in this day of technology, different avenues of communication, etc.....

If you can't fix your problems in this marriage, you will just bring the same problems into the next marriage. Compatibility does not happen by accident; it is a learned behavior.

There is no reason to throw your marriage away. All of the issues you cited above are issues this program can resolve. But you have to actually do the work. It doesn't happen by fairy magic.

Proof has come to me in the course of our relationship. I've never needed to actively look. I trust that a liar will eventually expose himself. The question is what to do about it. Rather or not he is lying to me is not the reason I'd leave in any case, and so perhaps that's where the confusion is.

You're catching me at the tail end of a dramatic saga...don't judge. I've hardly been complacent, but giving up may be more like it.

Just want to point out that snooping *IS* secretive, or it is not snooping. It should be secret.

She meant well, yes and I have forgiven her for that and we are close. But she is also a closed up person, not willing to let people in but desiring to know as much as she can about others. Similar to my husband.

Again, my husband has had my passwords and whatnot for years. I don't like it at all, because I think it's a power play, but I allow it. What disgust me most in this regard is his lack of reciprocation.

teetering, I feel that all this has worn you down. How could it not have. I value honesty as well. I think we all do. I really just want people to do the right thing...... The thing is, some people don't.

If you have been worn down, find some inner strengh so you can fight through this. YOU will be better for it.

There is so much you need to learn. It is all here. Take the Emotional Needs Questionaire. Maybe you should get some of the books, His Needs Her Needs is one.

Read up on Lovebusters, meeting emotional needs, POJA. These things are the "how to" behind creating a good, romantic, fulfilling marriage. We think we know how to do that when we get married, but the longer you are around here, you will realize you really didn't know anything about how to be married.

Like I noted earlier, you are here for validation to demonize your husband and are not looking for solutions. You aren't going to get any help demonizing your husband here.

Have you already decided to leave your husband?

True, but her right to snoop does not negate my feeling of violation or the resulting fall out in our relationship which took years to repair. So, yes, my husband can snoop all he wants. But in snooping, he is choosing a behavior that does not occur in protected dome. His behavior impacts me, and while I permit him to do his snooping and have stuck around, he does not grant me the same. It's intolerable.

Thank you for pointing that out..... I was trying to say in a good, secure marriage, that it should be willingly accepted, known that it will be done... etc.... Maybe secretive wasn't the right word to use there. Did I explain this better?

I was not saying that her need to snoop now should not be secretive. Now, she needs to be a detective for her marriage.

That is the attitude of a child, though. A mature adult accepts and understands that a parent has to do things she might not like.


No, but you said you wouldn't snoop so this makes no sense. Why would you be "furious" about something you say you have no intention of doing anyway?

You are speaking the language of doublespeak. You say you are completely "transparent" and don't hide things yet you are "FURIOUS" when he sees what you are doing via snooping. All that tells me is that you are not really "transparent" because you only want him looking at what you have direct control over. In other words, you want to hide everything else.

Your posts indicate a very wayward mind. I can understand why your husband snoops on you. Nothing you say makes any sense.

I see the primary responsibility for Teetering as being a conflict avoider.

She's on unequal ground with respect to her husband's snooping because she's been trained by him to not invade his "privacy". She's here seeking validation because she recognizes the inequities in what he imposes on her yet refuses for himself. But this is not the place for that confrontation.

It is directly with him. Teetering - what is the thing you fear by facing him down and demanding equal openness and honesty from him?

Truthfully - what is the bottom line you're afraid to face?

Littlebit, I really appreciate your tone and your support. I am completely worn out and tired, and judgement from strangers is not what I'm looking for. I feel completely responsible for the state of my relationship with my husband, and for the sanity of my children, and all of that. I've been honest with my husband, and want the same. I don't feel as though I can force someone to be honest and to love me in the way that I need, and the thought of even attempting to do so is disturbing. I've expressed to him what I need and want from him, and he refuses at every turn. We've read many of Dr. Harley's articles and a couple of his books, amongst many other books on intimacy and relationships and we end up in the same place all over again. It's this relationship that has taught me to value myself over marriage and someone else, but of course I didn't start there. Anyway, I thank you for your approach and helping me to soften up my anger a bit.

She is not going to get validation in demonizing her husband, Kayla. She will get validation of positive efforts to change the balance of power in her marriage and resolve the problems. However, she seems not to be willing to do that.

What are you willing to do to solve the problems in your marriage?

That's because she's a conflict avoider. It's easier to demonize her husband than face the fact that she's unwilling to face down his displeasure to require his respect.

Mel - I recognize a classic conflict avoider when I see one - remember - you spot it you got it?

She needs to snoop. She's afraid of what she'll find. but she's also afraid of his anger.

It's easier to demonize him here and try to get sympathy than deal with her own character defect that allows him the license to not be open and honest with her.

I have faced him directly many times over, and he gaslights. This web is quite tangled and I just don't know my way out, honestly. I don't know what I'm afraid of, or if I'm actually afraid, or just ambivalent. I have no where to go in order to enact a temporary separation, which is the one thing that may actually move us forward.

You are very welcome teetering. I really like this forum. Believe it or not, the people here really care about helping you. They will help build you up and "make you see" that you have some things to own and change to be the best you, and to help you re-build your marriage the right way. Please don't look at it as criticism from strangers. You have your own "fog" they have to break down before they can help you. We have opinions and ideas that are not helping us as women or helping our marriage. They have been there and have already learned these things, so really, we have a lot to learn. I have been around here long enough to learn that while some of what is said to help us can be harsh, it really does have truth and a beautiful silver lining if you allow it to help you.

They need to be tough on you to get YOU out of your own fog to rise to the occasion at hand. Long habits that have allowed all of this are hard to break. So, let us help you. Let us break down your walls so you can re-build yourself into who you really want to be sans the bad habits and behaviors that have come along with handling all of this wrong.

Like I said before, validating her in the demonization of her husband is going to get her exactly nowhere regardless of the cause of her demonization. It is a distraction from taking the steps to resolve the problem.

this^^^

teetering, do you, deep inside, believe that your husband is not committed to your marriage, and you are displacing your anger, because it would be too painful and life-disrupting to find out the truth? are you upset with yourself/your husband because you realise that you will have to get proactive and start snooping to find out what is really going on, and then have to make decisions about it?

it would be easier for everyone, but mainly you, if you just came right out and baldly stated your true feelings about your M. (i know this is hard.) so far, i've gleaned that you've never really been happy because you feel your husband is not committed to your M. additionally, i think you have a terrible fear about where you M is. would this be correct?

I'm willing to change my mind about him and who I feel like he is, and to continue to do things that make him feel secure and loved by me. I'm willing to learn new ways of being with him. But I need a return, and that's my issue. I'm not getting reciprocation, and that eventually leads me to feeling taking advantage of and used up. I also get blatant dismissal. As in, "I'm not letting you have my passwords" or "I'm not writing you sweet letters, even if you write them to me, and even if that's what you need from me sometimes." I'm spent.

Yet your presenting problem was not "my husband mistreats me!!" but "my husband snoops on me!" A completely different problem now.

I will ask again, do you have a plan to leave him? And if you do, WHY? What has caused you to want to leave him?

aha. the crux. yes, this may indeed be the case. is that what you need help with? it does take a lot of support to be able to do it.

This tells me is a) hiding something and b) is emotionally checked out of the marriage.

But I need more information and I have asked these questions now 5 times. Please answer.

1. are you married?

2. how long married?

3. any children?

4. any affairs?

You are not going to be able to fix this without some conflict teetering. He isn't going to "like" you holding him accountable, or you demanding that he be transparent. He likes that he has been able to get you into the position where he can be secretive about what he wants to be secretive about.

You are going to have to be willing to stand up for yourself and NOW. Get ready to set high boundaries for yourself and be TOUGH, loving, but TOUGH to hold him to them. You DESERVE this tettering. This is your life and your marriage too. It is only beneficial if it meets the needs of both individuals in it! You have to be authentic, honest and ready to fight for what you deserve in your life. It won't be easy if you are a conflict avoider. Griping helps you feel better. But, I know that the pros here ALSO want to see actions on your part. By what you have written, it is pretty obvious that you have formed a bad habit of sitting back and doing nothing, so they are preparing you to step it up!!!! Are you ready?

mel--

I don't think so. I think my marriage is in the can and I'm well aware and ok acknowledging that, and my relationship with my husband has always been unfortunate. We've come out a bit. Overtime we've learned to live together in a way that's got more good times than bad; and yet, intimacy and equality remain issues between us and there are variety of ways in which the problem displays itself between us.

I place my anger squarely on him and rarely hold back unless we're in the company of others or our children. I write letters and express myself verbally as well, whatever it takes. I don't have any trouble telling him how I feel and what I think. I am met with a typically dismissive response, and so here I am, writing to you hoping that someone gets what I'm saying. Ironically, much of what he says, you all have said and now I'm really spinning.

ok. so your M is lacking the basic building block of intimacy, and you guys are lovebusting all over the place in your frustration.

you mentioned that you had read some of dr harley's books. which ones? and of them, which chapters spoke to you the loudest?

Just breathe deep right now. My advice to you right now is to try to figure out one thing you can change right now that you know will be something that will better you and be something that will benefit your marriage.

You can work on yourself while you are trying to figure out why your H is disconnected and uncaring about your needs.

I didn't sense you were a conflict avoider. You sure haven't been one here. What does he say when you tell him what you want?

Exactly.

We've read Love Busters and His Needs/Her Needs together: Angry Outburst, Disrespectful Judgements, and Independent Behavior from LB stand out most because that's where most of our problems are.

And how would you rate each other in each of those lovebusters?

Um, no he won't. And yes the question IS what to do about it. It is exceptionally complacent for your choices to be either a) the problem will fix itself or b) leave.

Complacency is the decision to do nothing. And that is exactly what you are doing.



Giving up is complacency. Regardless of what has happened before, it is your job to assess the situation and act. We cannot control others, we can only control ourselves.

You claim there is inequality by your H snooping while you don't. But it is your complacency in NOT snooping creating that inequality!!



"I won't look" "It will resolve itself" "I won't do anything about it"

If I were married to someone this uncaring, inactive and lackadaisacal I would be the one giving up!

No one is interested in your complaints about things you can't be bothered to reslove and act upon. What are you going to DO?

Maybe your H is a conflict avoider. That doesn't mean he isn't secretive. It doesn't mean that he is wrong in engaging in his secretive behavior..... If the way you discuss things with him is angry or blaming or make him feel guilt, then he shuts down to avoid it all. I am just guessing here.... I thought my angry outburts (AO's) were justified b/c of what my H does, but now I know that some of my behaviors have been/are lovebusters. Lovebusters destroy relationships. It seems doubly so when your spouse is a conflict avoider. Just a thought........

teetering, can you identify the lovebusters in your first post?

Never considered myself to be a conflict avoider, no. I'm not afraid of disagreeing with others or them disagreeing with me.

What he says depends on however he feels I suppose. He may agree for the day, and then passive aggressively not do what I ask. He may complain about my asking for something. He may turn it on me and demand that I do something for him first. He may stonewall me and pretend that he can't hear me. He will start fights with me, really, he has an arsenal of ways to push me away when I tell him I need something from him in our relationship.

Angry Outburst and DJ are both weaknesses of ours. The Independent Behavior is mostly an issue that I have with him. He prefer Independent Behavior, so long as he is the one being independent, or so long as my independence is convenient for him.

Anger is no way to resolve conflicts.

Anger is simply the last resort of a conflict avoider who has reached the end of their rope.

This all goes back to your lack of action in the marriage.

Stop expecting someone to wave a magic wand and step up.

If you have a problem you should raise it LONG before you even feel any anger.

Then you raise complaints calmly, suggesting solutions which are as much to his benefit as yours.

If you fear there is secrecy, snoop.

Stop expecting someone else to play your role in this marriage.

But that simply means he never really wanted to do it and you should not be forcing him to. If he doesn't want to do something, don't make him. Go back to the negotation and choose a solution that works as well for him as it does for you.



But if he does not want to do it, you should not be making him any way!

POJA requires two enthusiatic votes.

If he needs pushing, then you don't have an enthusiastic vote, do you?

I'm not sure I'd say he's a conflict avoider. Maybe I need a better understanding of what that means. He has no issue getting into conflict with other people or me. He starts verbal fights whenever he feels like it and with whomever, and was quite rowdy physically when he was younger. He's been secretive since before we were together. So while I used to think it was me and the way I reacted to him, I realize that this is actually the way he has been. I certainly don't make it better though.

Would he agree to go through the program with you? You said he read the books with you. Was he willing to implement these concepts?

In this context conflict has nothing to do with anger and violence.

By 'conflict' Little simply means disagreements or areas of unhappiness or complaints.

All things which can be discussed calmly and peacefully.

It is actually quite common for conflict avoiders to resort to anger and violence because they don't have the skills to verbalise the conflict. They avoid it until they lose control.

You're assuming I'm pushing and not getting an enthusiastic agreement with him. Yes, occasionally I have. But not so much since we read Lovebusters, which was years ago. He may very well enthusiastically agree with me, even saying "I ENTHUSIASTICALLY AGREE WITH THIS" and then turn around and do something different, even blaming me for asking him to do something for me at all. This is my frustration. How am I to know what he wants or doesn't if it he himself doesn't know or wont say? Keylogging his brain was a thought, but seemed impractical.

He said he was, but that was years ago. He enthusiastically agreed to read another book with me, one of his choosing, months ago. We got one chapter in and he quit, saying it was boring and that he never wanted to read it in the first place. This has happened with counseling as well, and many other things I bring up concerning our relationship. He feigns enthusiastic agreement, and then completely backs out and goes on the attack if I question him.

You seem intent on missing the point.



But POJA is not about doing something for YOU!!!

POJA solutions should NEVER benefit only one party.

Your H is q right in refusing solutions that only benefit you.

That is the WHOLE POINT of POJA.

When someone doesn't follow through on a decision that has been POJAed it means one of two things: they changed their mind OR they agreed to something they didn't really want to do because they were under pressure.

It is an expectation of the POJA that either partner has the right to change their mind at any time. So if your husband doesn't follow through, that is ok. But he needs to learn to RE-negotiate another decision with you.

Do you and your husband understand that aspect of the POJA?

It depends on how you spin it. Does MB just benefit me, or does it benefit our relationship? To him, Marriage Busters benefits me. Being romantic benefits me. Reading books about how our relationship can be improved benefits me. How would you approach such a perspective?

Renegotiating is not something he is typically willing to do. So while he may say he is ok with things, he really isn't, and I know it, but don't know how to approach it because he's telling me he is. He really isn't ok with MB, or anything else having to do with improving our relationship. He just wants me to be fine with everything as it is, and he'd be quite happy so long as I acted as though I was, because he feels like I give him what he needs and that's all that really matters. If only I'd move beyond my own needs, everything would be perfect.

Thank goodness he wouldn't go to counseling since it is so destructive to marriages. Most men don't have any use for most marriage programs because most of them are replete with idiotic psychobabble. This program is completely different becuase it is psychobabble free and because it has step by step instructions.

I would try and get him to go through the first 5 chapters of Lovebusters with you. There is a workbook you can buy on this website [it is $11] that goes with it. It has questionaires that will be a great help to you both.

I would start there by doing the questionaires and answering the questions at the end of each chapter in Lovebusters. That should eliminate the worst of your lovebusters on both sides.

And while you are doing that, you can work on making lovebank deposits by scheduling undivided attention time. Tear out the worksheet in the back of the workbook and just start scheduling your time. It should be devoted to meeting the top 4 intimate emotional needs of affection, conversation, sexual fulfillment and recreational companionship. Getting in 15+ hours of UA time per week will make the greatest lovebank deposits in the fastest amount of time.

Fairly easily.

In fact Dr H began this site and has tapes and a radio show/phone counselling for the express reason you cite. Most men hate relationship books and Dr H says it is a TERRIBLE idea to enforce that on a man who doesn't want to do it. You can bring MB into the relationship by following it yourself.

As for 'being romantic' if he is forced to do it, it isn't romantic!

You have to find the avenue to your needs that he genuinely agrees with. Something he would actually enjoy!

You can't simply say do it "for me"

How would it benefit HIM? People buy things when they see a perceived benefit. How does he benefit?

We've read the entire book together. He thought most of MB was bunk judging by his actions, and the idea of spending 15+ hours was hideous to him. He said there is no way in the world he is spending that much time with me. He did go to counseling with me for awhile, and it actually helped us better than anything else. Turned us around more than anything else has, but obviously didn't eliminate our fundamental problems and he stopped the week that he said he felt like we were really making progress. Said it cost too much, and that's how we ended up at reading LB.

This is a very common problem and can be easily tackled with MB.

Many men who are getting their own needs met simply don't understand their wifes needs are different. They also resent being told what to do, which is correct on their part.

With MB you can make it worth his while, and a joy rather than a chore.

Have you ever (calmly) told him that your unhappiness is such you consider leaving?

Saying it angrily doesn't count as it is not very easy to take an angry person seriously.

I would also be sure to add that your goal is to make him JUST as happy as you: "how do you feel about looking at some options?" Or "How do you feel about looking about how we can better meet your needs too?"

Always keep in mind that your decisions should benefit you both.

He benefits because it makes me happy, and when I'm happy I'm inspired to make him happy, and around we go. I've told him that. It benefits him because we gain the knowledge to move this ship forward so that it doesn't have to be a focus of our day, and he can concern himself with other things. I've told him that. He's not sold.

Yes but doing what? Are you saying that if the two of you spent that time doing his absolute favourite RC activity he would still find the idea 'hideous'?

Again, what is in it for him? Why should he be sold on this idea?

No - that's you benefiting.



Nor should he be!!!!!!

If you are fighting and committing lovebusters, most spouses would avoid any time together so I can understand why he would resist. This is why I suggested jumping into the first 5 chapters of Lovebusters FIRST and getting your lovebusters under control.

People buy things when they see a perceived benefit. How does he stand to benefit from this program?

The problem with counseling is that it focuses on conflict resolution and "communication" which does nothing to help the fundamental problem in the marriage.

Yes,I have and I've also given him the benefits as well. He has told me that his needs are well met, and so he has little incentive to meet my needs in order to get his own met. The anger comes after I say these things calmly and clearly for months, he agrees to work with me, and then does absolutely nothing, and responds to my reminding or questioning him on his part by blowing up at me in anger.

That is not a benefit though. That is how it benefits YOU. What does he like to do? What did you do when you were dating?

So why should he be interested because obviously the happiness of the woman he professed to marry just aint enough? I just want to say that that alone is disgusting to me. Why am I begging someone to care about me again?

What are his top ENs?

Dr Harley EXPRESSLY warns couples to NEVER do this.

You H should NEVER agree to things that only make you happy.

And you should certainly not agree to make it worth his while 'next time'

Each and every decision should benefit you both.

Your H sounds like he is fantastic at POJA!

He is refusing to sign up to a cycle of taking it in turns to be miserable and no doubt is pulling his hair out!

Oh yea, I tried that too. The exchange was that if we do the work together, I'd watch the kids so he could go to the gym and play basketball. An hour of us time, for 1.5 hours of ball. Never happened, and this was his suggestion. And if the relationship does not benefit him, then why exactly am I'm trying to build one with him?

Did you notice how resentful you are because you are meeting his needs and he is not meeting yours? That is why it is a bad idea to meet someone's needs without reciprocity. That is sacrifice, and sacrifice leads to resentment. It characterizes renters relationships and renters keep score.

Of course it isn't enough. You should BOTH be happy. Decisions which only take into account your happiness are silly decisions.

And if you have been making decisions in which only he benefits, that is equally silly because you've been expecting 'payment' in return for sacrificing.

Stop the circle of sacrifice and start making decisions that benefit you both.

If you want to have nice times together choose something that isn't a chore for either of you.

But it was silly of you to agree to that. Why are you making decisions that don't benefit you both? You didn't want the first part of the decision and he did not want the second. So it was a terrible decision!

The point of this exercise is to find activities to do together, not apart. A better plan would have been to go to the gym together and find things to do together. Get a babysitter [many gyms have babysitting services] and go out together.

What other things does he like to do?

Following POJA

The basketball-for a date deal is a key example of 'taking it in turns to sacrifice'

Instead of watching the kids, you could have gone to work out with him too = mutual benefit.

And instead of 'us time' that only you want, choose something he finds fun = mutual benefit.

Don't take it in turns to be unhappy! Choose to both be happy at the same time!

The Policy of Joint Agreement

He is happy. I am not. I expect reciprocation, which comes naturally between equals who want the best for each other. He has little desire to give or learn. I'd never sign onto a friendship so devoid of basic altruism. How can I operate in a marriage without being there for him or being romantic towards him? I don't completely despise him, yet. I just want a give and take. I used to just give, and that was fine by him. And now I want something back, which apparently isn't ok because he hasn't enthusiastically agreed(even when he has) to give me anything.

It was no sacrifice on my part. He loves b-ball, and he plays with other men, which is fine by me. It was his suggestion, and I was happy to fulfill that need for him. I want him to be at his best. Watching our children is nothing that would make me unhappy under the agreement we made. We do many things we both love. We go on dates every other week. We going camping with friends. We cruise. We watch movies every other night. Lot's of mutual fun going on here. Fun is not our issue, we've got that down. We got along great on that level. Probably work out wonderfully as LD best friends or something. It's romantic intimacy that is an issue.

teetering, it is an expectation in marriage that your needs will be met. It should be done in a way that your spouse is enthusiastic about. If a spouse refuses to meet your needs - on any conditions - then Dr Harley recommends a separation. He lines out his plan in this article. He did add one thing when he discussed this on the radio, and that is that the spouse write a "PLan A" letter outlining what she needs to be happy.

When to Call It Quits (Part 1)

Ok. What is this Plan A letter, and what happens when it gets dismissed? And why would he refuse to meet my needs like this? I can't recall when it wasn't like this between us. Why be with someone if you don't want to care for them in a way that makes them feel most cared for?

Ok, yes. I missed this. We do many things together that are mutually enjoyable and this is the strength in our relationship. We love going out to eat together, and traveling, and we go to friend's houses most weekends together. We still enjoy frequent date nights, more than we actually were dating. That area of our lives is OK. Little of this time is undivided attention time, and like I said, he pretty much can't even stand the thought of too much of that. I think he wants a playmate(a woman who is athletic, and runs and jogs, and lifts weights...lol)He's not like that at all although he's more physically active than I am, but he imagines himself that way, and neither am I. And I just get the sneaking suspicion that I'm not enough of what he actually wanted, and so he keeps his distance. Then again, he has told me that he was like this with his exes, and worse, as well.

That is not what you said earlier:


So which is it? You have great fun and spend lots of time together or spending time with you is hideous?

teetering, it sounds like you both are stuck in that all-too-common rut of sacrifice and frustration. you can, however, turn this around.

first, you need to eliminate all LB behaviour. this isn't going to be easy when you're so frustrated and angry, and have a history of meeting his needs while he doesn't meet yours. however, you need to create an environment where he is happy to be around you. btw, no one said it was fair that the put-upon spouse has to be the one to start the hard work. however, if you want your M to survive - no, to be a happy one - someone has to start somewhere.

as mel and indie pointed out, your H needs to be aware of the benefit for him to buy into the programme. you do know that MB has a whole lotta videos to complement the books? my own H is NOT a reader, but he will happily watch the videos. i also read aloud from LB and HNHN and we discuss the questions at the end of the chapters. the trick is to do this in small doses, and not as UA time - you want UA time to be mutually pleasant/fun/exciting.

right now, you are both in a place where you are both so frustrated that you just want to hurt each other. we understand this; we have all been there. but you have to turn this around. you CAN do it, and we are here to help you follow MB so that you can do it. there are going to be times where you will feel it's not working or feel frustrated because he doesn't respond the way you're *hoping* he will.

MB takes the frustration level of this (the lack of/not the one you want) response. the EN questionnaires help you communicate, effectively and explicitly, exactly what you need and how you need it, both of you. yes, at first it does feel fake/forced, because you are learning new habits. but once habits become established, they are real. and you will find that you are getting exactly what you want - and so will he!

we have been led to believe that if someone loves us, they should just "know" what to do/say. but this is not the case at all. you cannot have your needs met when your spouse doesn't explicitly know what they are and how to do it. while it may seem "wrong" in our make-believe-love society, there is nothing wrong in telling someone exactly how to meet your needs! it's really no different from telling your hairdresser how you want your hair styled, or your colleague the result from a task completed.

it's not easy. it's actually really hard. but the payoff of a mutually satisfying M is worth the hard work. like my momma used to say: nothing worth having is easy.

so the question is: are you up to it? or is your LB$ so empty you are ready to leave? there is nothing wrong with a decision to leave. you are the only person who can know what your status is and which decision will be the right one for you. we will not harass or shame you for deciding to leave. MB is not about M at all costs. but if you decide you want to give it a go, with all the work that entails, then we will help guide you.

Read the article.

It's not black and white. Spending time with me is not an issue, so long as the tv is on, or we have some other distraction, like other people to talk to. Spending 15+/UA is not the same thing. Talking to me one on one gets "boring" to him. Romantic gesture, unless you consider dry humping me while I try to cook, are out of the picture.

What need is not being met Teetering? If he enjoys doing things with you, that is UA time...

I am guessing, but by 'romantic intimacy' do you mean his spending time conversing you and being physically affectionate and giving you romantic gestures like notes, flowers, etc?

He probably sees no need for those things at all and thinks you should 'know' he loves you without those gestures. Its a common mistake.

How serious does he think you to be? Is it possible he thinks your needs are a whim or does he know you are unhappy enough to leave?

Well, we have given you the necessary tools to resolve your problem. Now it is up to you use those tools or not. We can't force you to use them obviously. Good luck!

Is he possibly trying to avoid lovebusters?

If you were to say: "what would make it less boring?" What would his response be?

I presume he talked when he courted you, what made it interesting for him back then?

Not sure. He'll say, "talk about something different". So I'll ask what he wants to talk about and he'll say "nothing". Or, I may change the topic and immediately lose him. No win so far except to not talk to him unless he wants to talk and has initiated.

Have you ever put it as baldly as this:

"I fell in love with you because of your intelligent conversation. I miss it very much, and sad to say..I am falling out of love as a result.

HOW WOULD YOU FEEL about conversing with me like when we were dating?"

If he says: "Well if I have to.."

Say: "Oh no, no. I want to find out if it is something you want to do. Is there anything about when we dated that made conversation easy for you?"

Keep digging for his radically honest perspective. Without his perspective, or enthusiasm, you can't resolve that.

The POJA steps will help.

Do you know the POJA steps?

let's try that a different way.

1. what have you tried to talk about where he's said he doesn't want to talk about it anymore? a few specific examples.

2. when he initiates, what does HE talk about?

He knows I'm unhappy enough to leave. I certainly tell him that, but he likely thinks I'm bluffing, and I am, in the short term; but I'm serious about the ultimate demise of this relationship. I just haven't worked up the nerve, and have little money to go anywhere.

Yes, by romantic intimacy, I would like some daily one:one talk time. Some romantic gestures. I send him sweet notes and would like the same. I occasionally get him little gifts or surprises. I'd like the same. I want to be held and gazed at sometimes, not just sitting shoulder to shoulder watching explosions on tv. I've said all of these things in writing and face to face. Very little happens for long. I know he loves me in his own way, kinda like how a master loves it's wayward poodle; but I would like a more mature, adult kinda of love, between secure human beings.

I will try that tonight. I've tried similar, and his response is that we are no longer dating and he isn't a romantic person. But I'll try.

Well of course he would need to 'want to'!!! That's obvious he would need a desire to talk.

There was no gun in his back when he was courting you! But context has changed since then.

I would use the POJA steps to discover what situations he finds encourage his conversation and which situations he finds off putting.

Most people find eliminating lovebusters helps create an environment for conversation.

We can coach you in a Plan A. Read the links and come back.

Because he thinks there is no harm in that.

It is MASSIVELY important you tell him you are 'falling out of love' and considering leaving. Stay calm throughout and excuse yourself if things get heated. Keep it a cheerful, kind tone.

You're trying to help both of you with honesty here. So make sure you sound helpful.

If you downplay the complaint you'll get a downplayed response. So use radical honesty, delivered in a firm but fair tone.

1. Psychology, sociology, and philosophy... just this morning, my dreams and hopes for a career outside of the home next year(I've been a SAH/WAH mom for everish), building a home, our credit...very long term goals for our lives.
2. Bills, basketball, very short term goals for our lives, "Hi...just wanted to say hi to say hi", "What are you doing?" and then before I can respond he's lost in the internet or in some other activity. After about 5 minutes, he's usually bored. I prefer involved conversations that could very well last hours, but if not that, at least enough to not be simply skimming surfaces.

If he responds with a complaint, say about your time together, listen calmly and promise to address it.

Got it. Will do. Update tomorrow. Thanks everyone. I know I'm a mess, but I do feel a bit better.

Can you think of a need of his you met while dating that you do less of now?

It sounds to me like he has a high RC need for example?

You need to get across your seriousness that you would leave. That is just RH.

In Plan A it's preferable not to just 'up and leave' anyway. Rather you say 'it's coming unless things change' and you prepare to go, save up while negotiating calmly all the while.

Then in Plan B he has the opportunity to change and win you round if he wants you to move back.

Glad to hear it. Remember the magic three words: cheerfulness, honesty and listening.

And also remember Rome wasn't built in a day

i have another Q: are you a good *listener?* do you actively listen when he talks, or point out his errors in thinking, change the subject to what you want to talk about, remember what he's said? (i was bad at this.)

Wow, your thread is growing fast!!! You have gotten some really good advice. Just keep coming back and posting. It is amazing how you WILL feel understood here.

You can be firm, but loving in establishing your boundaries. Be confident that you deserve his care and protection. You can't MAKE him give it to you though...... So, read up on Plan A. Be the best you can be. Start working on your AO's and DJ's, cleaning up your behaviors. Do the things you are supposed to do. Be cheerful, thankful, enjoy life and your children. Be positive, etc...... These are things that you should want for yourself anyway. Let him know how good you really are and give him the idea of what he would be missing if he didn't choose to work on your marriage.

Keep your head up!!!! Enjoy this process (as much as you can enjoy something like this.) You will come out a much better person after having gone through this. We will be here for you (if not pushing you!!!!)

Admiration. He needs it, and I have trouble giving it as well I could. When we met I was a naive, depressed, teenager. He was an older guy. I'd never dated an older guy before and was eager to learn from him, until I got to know him and the outlandish behavior began. I came out of my depression and seemed to have lost my appeal. Wasn't so vulnerable or easy to push around like he thought. It went downhill from there. Resentment set in and I realized he didn't actually know any more than I did about most anything. I reached a point when I decided to stay that I could still give it frequently, but it's been a long time together, and so my abilities and incentives are escaping me.

He does have a high need for RC, and he gets it met for the most part. He'd like me to run with him or work out at a gym, so we agreed to start off with morning walks(running causes my legs severe pain sometimes), and he woke up one time early enough in order to meet that agreement. So I'm led to believe that he's just stalling.

So I tried tonight. Approached him cheery and all. He was angry with me concerning the argument we had this morning that brought me here, and the fact that he mostly watched the kids today because I retreated after he refused to talk to me. He shut me down and said he wasn't interested in talking, but listened for 5-minutes(said he enthusiastically agreed, but apparently changed his mind in seconds). I gave him the EN Q and the one I filled out and he threw it across the room. I believe he said "F! this S! about your needs and that you're unhappy." So needless to say, it didn't go over well. Standard. Going to bed now.

And thanks LB3!

So what was this prior fight about?

Lack of undivided attention, on my part; disturbing his independent behavior on his part. We woke up and were in the kitchen together. I had a dream that I was attempting to share with him about our future. He was FBing and message boarding on a sports site and told me to stop talking about what I was talking about. He was tired of hearing about my long range plans because they change and because I get too excited about things that may not actually happen. This is an argument that we have all too frequently and it morphed from there into mudslinging.

This fight? This fight about his not paying you enough attention, IB and lovebusters is what prompted you to post here?



You say this argument brought you here, yet you never mentioned it until this point!

Your first post does not ONCE mention the very issues you now claim expressly brought you here.

Lots to say about snooping though. Full of opinions on that:



Lots of demonising of your husband too, purely for having the gall to look where he has every right to look.

1) You are trying to deter transparency in your M.
2) Your H's reasonable behaviour is demonised
And
3) Your story does not add up. IB and lack of needs did not bring you here. A fear of snooping did.

Let's stop writing and rewriting this tale and cut to the chase:

What is you do not want your H to find out with his snooping?

The arm chair psychoanalysis is getting redundant. I'm not new to MB, just the forums. I've been aware of MB most of our marriage and I read the articles frequently, but have not really been able to implement much. Somewhere in the fallout of our argument yesterday keylogging came up because he was on FB when I was attempting to talk to him and was trying to shut me down. The first time I read Dr. Harley's spying article was yesterday, which prompted me to originally post about it since it was what had me incensed at the point I signed on. There's no dirty little secret, just bits and pieces of a decades worth story.

As far as I know, my husband is not currently snooping, but his past snooping(which was part of our argument yesterday) in addition to his denial of my access to do the same made me furious(amongst other things...as I said in the title).

Again, he has my passwords, I do not have his. He has had mine for YEARS now and has snooped since before we dated. He has never uncovered anything in our marriage that would have him to believe I am not open with him about who I speak to and what I do.

I find snooping distasteful and sketchy unless someone is waving red flags around and the truth cannot be had above ground. It's even worse if you'd hate someone doing it to you. It suggest a serious superiority complex. I have not given him cause in this marriage and never did, and feel like his behavior was invasive and unwarranted. I imagine he feels the same way, which is why he does not approve of my doing it to him.

I have no clue if he spies on me or not, but if he is doing it, I wouldn't be surprised. He's not beyond poker faced lying. This is not a judgement against anyone here who spies, and I apologize if that's what has come across. I clearly understand your argument for spying, and his past ones as well(which is why I appeased him), that does not make me a fan in the slightest. If you do not understand how a person who is not guilty of crime would not like to spied on and supervised, then I'm not the one to convince you. There are many articles out there about such, and entire groups of people who have endured such behavior in the name of others protecting themselves from them. The burden is on you to understand-or not. I have clearly explained myself on this issue.

If that's not enough, let's say that I try not to prescribe to an ends justifies the means philosophy, however justifiable, rational, or self-preserving. And let's just say it's for spiritual purposes and move forward, please. I'm not angry today, and would like some coaching on what I could've done better last night.

I'd also like to note that I did Plan A last year. It worked for a bit and then things went back to the status quo.

OK. Have a good weekend

Yep, I'm with you, Indiegirl, trying to get a straight story out of this one is about like trying to nail Jello to the wall. I will never get back the time I wasted here yesterday and have no intention of losing any more time!

OK .. i read the entire thread.

I think the OP needs to get snooping. There is many red flags between them both. Her husbands refusal to cooperate is a HUGE red flag to me.

I have no doubts that her hubby is all secretive because he is hiding some kind of EA or PA... possibly even she is too ... heck both of them maybe have something to hide that they are afraid to reveal to the other in fear of the consequences.

Get snooping ... you owe it to your family .. and kids to find out what your hubby is REALLY up to. If your snooping causes him to leave (provided he catches you) .. then you get your wish. He may have a reaction similar to your own (angry and defensive) but just be calm .. cool .. and collective about it.

IF you snoop (i HIGHLY suggest a keylogger on the PC and possibly a logger on his cell phone) Bring the info here so we can guide you with the proper steps to recover (DO NOT CONFRONT). If you find nothing ... then you can feel better. The purpose of snooping is to feel secure knowing that our spouses have our best interests in mind without us knowing they do. This creates trust. You dont have to snoop forever... infact, if you dont find anything at all .. you will get bored of the snooping and most likely forget about it.

Its hard to get out of the vicious cycle of withdrawl.... its far easier to complain... be critical etc when your in the state of withdrawl or conflict .. than be nice and try to plug those nasty lovebuster holes that are draining your love accounts for each other.

MNG

Thanks for your reply. We're supposed to be doing the EN together tonight. Had one agreement that seems to have gone over well. Get the feeling I wont be welcomed here unless I snoop and admit to things I haven't done. Is there no acceptable alternative to snooping in Mb? Not trying to be a time waster, but I will not be bullied or shamed into doing something against my better judgement . I was angry, but I'm not cynical and I'm ok with trusting my intuition.

[quote=MrNiceGuy]OK .. i read the entire thread.

I think the OP needs to get snooping. There is many red flags between them both. Her husbands refusal to cooperate is a HUGE red flag to me.

I have no doubts that her hubby is all secretive because he is hiding some kind of EA or PA... possibly even she is too ... heck both of them maybe have something to hide that they are afraid to reveal to the other in fear of the consequences.

Get snooping ... you owe it to your family .. and kids to find out what your hubby is REALLY up to. If your snooping causes him to leave (provided he catches you) .. then you get your wish. He may have a reaction similar to your own (angry and defensive) but just be calm .. cool .. and collective about it.

IF you snoop (i HIGHLY suggest a keylogger on the PC and possibly a logger on his cell phone) Bring the info here so we can guide you with the proper steps to recover (DO NOT CONFRONT). If you find nothing ... then you can feel better. The purpose of snooping is to feel secure knowing that our spouses have our best interests in mind without us knowing they do. This creates trust. You dont have to snoop forever... infact, if you dont find anything at all .. you will get bored of the snooping and most likely forget about it.

Its hard to get out of the vicious cycle of withdrawl.... its far easier to complain... be critical etc when your in the state of withdrawl or conflict .. than be nice and try to plug those nasty lovebuster holes that are draining your love accounts for each other.

MNG

Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. When your email question is chosen to be answered on the radio show, you will be notified by email directing you to listen to the rebroadcast. If you would like to consider being a caller, include your telephone number. You will be called by us to explain the procedure to you. Every caller will receive a complementary book by Dr. Harley that addresses their question.


Please watch this.
Infidelity: What Every Couple Needs to Know

Your going to do the ENQ? thats GREAT! I hope you come back here and tell us how it went? the ENQ was HuGE for my wife and I ... We both realized we were missing the mark .. big time. the LBQ was useful also .. but it did cause us to fight a bit even though we agreed not too .. however that was the early stages of MB for us.

I dont think there is no acceptable alternative to snooping, but I do think its important if one or both spouses are being secretive. It could mean a matter of life or death technically ... what if your hubby was out having an affair and bringing home diseases he and you were unaware of? Or complaining to someone of hte opposite sex all your marital problems (biggest contributer to affairs both EA and PA). I dont rule out snooping becasue of health reasons... I would want to know if my wife was out being an ally cat in heat and draggin home the plague.

We assume the best of our spouses til they give us reasons to think otherwise. In your case .. your feeling otherwise. Snooping can bring a sense of peace ... but if you find something your not happy with it can bring a sense of despair along with it. Its hard to tackle the casuses of withdrawl when one or both spouses are not transparent. Thats like trying to fix a sinking ship .. without the access to the areas where water is being taken in at.

- http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8501_fft.html - What is an affair? (good short read and really makes you think)

-
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8110_ul.html - whats wrong with unconditional love? (all love has conditions, a great read aswell)

MNG


I snooped on my wife in the beginning of my thread due to suspisions... but i also revealed my snooping. My wife was defensive and dismissive of my concerns for quite a long time. Eventually she accepted that I was snooping and started snooping on me. (which is great Btw, I welcomed it. Infact it made me feel like she actually cared!) She got bored really fast. We have a keylogger on BOTH our PCs now and we keep them there to monitor my childrens internet usage and pick our battles with them carefully. I see stuff i could call my daughter out on .. but most of it is unnecessary .. shes a teenager. Both my wife and I go over logs ... and then descide what to do if anything from that point. My wife also checks on my work PC as I have the keylogger on it also ... so she can check the logs online from any computer. Shes bored of looking at that also... haha.

MNG

Someone who has nothing to hide has no issues with someone snooping, instead they welcome it. But you know better than Dr. Harley. Why don't you email him and ask him?

I'll definitely update, even if I'm talking to myself. Thank you for politely sharing your journey with me, I appreciate that. And excited to be doing the ENQ and see where that leads if all goes well.


I committed to P90X a couple of years ago after our second child and did NOT do the program exactly as outlined. Nonetheless, I was happy with my results then and what I got out of it. I trust the same will happen here if we can commit to doing our best.

Saw that you were raised by a single mom and related that to your and your wife's having a high need for conversation. Same for me here too. That's interesting and something I'd never thought about.

What do you get out of trying to negate someone you don't know in the least? It's beyond me. I respect Dr. Harley, but do not buy anyone's ideas wholesale. I decide what makes intuitive sense and go from there. And I respect the decision you've made for yourself and your family.

We can see the results of that.

Clever

Dr.Harleys stuff is by far the most productive approach to pretty much all marital issues, is it perfect? NO! but darn close. Trust me .. i have spent MANY many many many many many hours wasting time at work researching ways to improve my marriage and myself when it was in a dire condition. (as you can probably tell I am still posting to my thread lol as we all slip up and need to be redirected or 2x4'd to keep us focused on building a happy marriage)

So in my opinion, MB is the top dog of marital programs for restoring love and learning how to understand your partner from a respectful and mutual point of view. We all lack empathy on how we effect others, and alot of marital issues stem from this . MB does its best to create empathy between 2 spouses.

did ya watch that vid?

MNG

edit to add detail

Posting links to other websites is still against our TOS and the link has been removed. This has not changed!

Any questions, shoot me an email.

Yup ... i didnt really realize it myself until this christmas. I easily meet my wifes need for conversation becasue i have a high need for it as well .. but if my wife starts LBing me using conversation (swearing ... mean tones, blaming .. etc) i quickly shut down and get discouraged or occasionally i rise to the occasion and return fire which damages us big time (since my wifes #1 need is conversation and mine is SF) and quickly throws us into withdrawl which leads to lack of UA time .. which leads to lack of SF ... then independant behaviors become priority until one of us wants to draw the other back into conflict to try and resolve the issue. Horrible cycle .. .but we are getting better at not digging the hole so deep anymore and recognize our patterns and try to re program ourselves. Its tough .... but worth it.

Doh! ... sorry about that ... i felt it fit into the situation. My appologies.

Did you see this post and just choose to ignore it?

Why don't you email Dr. Harley and argue with him about his plan?

So why be on MB if you don't agree with the plans? You just want to argue with everyone and talk about how awful your H is.

Why come on here and argue with the plans?

Heh, I know that feeling.

I agree. MB is one of the best programs I have seen too, which is why I keep coming back to the articles. I have taken from it and from other programs to customize it, but just need the guy to really get on board. Mostly, he has been resistant to my approach on this issue because I come at him frustrated and angry when I feel let down after he agrees to something and then backtracks. I'm working on that---->not getting so let down, and angry as a result. Empathy is important, and I'm always open to growing better in that direction too!

Haven't watched the video yet, but I will tonight.

I'm done arguing. What I wanted was an understanding of the spying rationale. Not understanding the reasons for doing it, the motivation behind it, left me confused and ticked off. I got one. Thank you for helping me understand. That's all I needed in regards to that particular issue.

So What do you want/need help with?

Are you saying you refuse to email Dr. H and receive the best advice for free?

At this point, just support and advice in bettering myself and making it easier for my husband to get on board with the core principles behind this program, or, in leaving without regrets if it comes down to that. Is that possible here even if I choose against spying?

I will email the Harley's about their take on alternatives to spying.

MB is a holistic programme, and only works when all parts are used harmoniously. you cannot cherry pick what you "intuitively" like and leave out the rest. but good luck to you.

I've read Love Busters and spying was not mentioned as an intrinsic part of the program. If it had been, I likely wouldn't have read it. Is that new? We read it together a couple of years ago.

lovebusters in only one part of the programme. it depends on where your marriage sits. spying is definitely part of the surviving an affair programme, but i imagine it fits in wherever there is doubt of honesty and transparency.

i'm glad MNG chimed in, because since you first posted, your Hs secrecy and, perhaps, *projection* has been a for me.

you really should write/call the programme and get it straight from the horse's mouth.

[/quote]Heh, I know that feeling.

I agree. MB is one of the best programs I have seen too, which is why I keep coming back to the articles. I have taken from it and from other programs to customize it, but just need the guy to really get on board. Mostly, he has been resistant to my approach on this issue because I come at him frustrated and angry when I feel let down after he agrees to something and then backtracks. I'm working on that---->not getting so let down, and angry as a result. Empathy is important, and I'm always open to growing better in that direction too!


[/quote]

Also step back and look at your "program" have you cherry picked all the info that would benifit you and not him? Maybe that is why he is not "on board" with it.

For example, everyone can pull a few verses of the bible out and make a any point of view they want. You have to dig deeper not just a few verses for the true context.

I sent the email and asked the question and I hear what you're saying.

Don't think that's how he feels at all, but I could ask. It's possible.

Great, let us know what their answer is and when it will be on the show.

I'll let you know if they respond.

Hey there teetering. I see you have some great help. In regards to the snooping, I guess it is in how you look at it. If you feel that you can live happily and fully without knowing for SURE that your H hasn't been living a secretive life and having affair(s), then you have to make that call. What I have learned from being here for a while is that, these kinds of secrets will continue to be destructive. So, don't assume that just b/c you don't know anything, that you can "just don't go there" and try to recover, and that it will work beaufitully. It most likely won't b/c your H knows. The secrecy, guilt, etc... will keep on doing its damage. It drives a wedge. Some men come clean. Some won't EVER. If your H is the latter, well, those just lie and lie and lie, then just keep doing what they want to do anyway. So, in that case, it is imperative that you arm yourself with the correct knowledge so you can make informed decisions.

Maybe you can schedule a polygraph for him. This way, youi don't have to be secretive, you can be up front with him. Actually, you take one too. That way you can give him the information he needs to feel safe. There are so many threads on here where people have done that. If you are interested, everyone will help you come up with the questions. This might be a suitable alternative for now.

Keep working on it teetering. Have a great Thursday.

i am so, SO glad you have done this! let us know when you'll be on. i so hope this helps you get started in a direction to build a GREAT marriage.

Hi there again, this is excellent advice, something I would be willing to implement and participate in. I brought it up to him and we have both agreed to take one as soon as we can afford it. As always, thank you.

I appreciate that. I'll update there, and on the ENQ later on today.

Thanks! I feel a bit flattered that you said that. Actually i think thats the first time anyone has ever mentioned they were glad i chimed in. Much appreciated.

@ teetering ... great job getting your hubby to want to participate somewhat. Thats progress! Keep up the good work!

i can't believe *that!* you have many, many excellence posts!

i was afraid to mention it, because i didn't want to make a mountain out of a molehill, but it was niggling at me. better safe than sorry, right? (haha, i just realised this was amusing considering my propensity to not be RH at all times!)

/tj

teetering, i hope the poly helps set both your minds to rest. i am heartened that he thinks it is a good idea. it'll be worth the expense to put your minds at ease. let us know if you (and husband) want help with the Qs. usually the polygrapher will talk to you about what this issue is, and will go over several Qs, then only ask 3 pertinent ones. we can help you narrow them down to specifics that can cover your concerns but still be answered with a Yes or No.

you also want to ask your husband a number of questions a day or so prior to the test, so he can have a chance to be forthcoming prior to the exam, and also so you can revise questions if need be before he goes in. i'll let someone who has actually done a poly chime in here on procedure. since you're both doing it, this can go both ways.

btw, i think it's great that you're both going to do it! it shows your willingness to be RH with your H, to give him the peace of mind he obviously doesn't have, despite your openness.

as a side note: we use lastpass (a browser extension and online password manager) to store unique passwords for all of our sites. this is two-fold. one, it helps with internet security by having complicated passwords, individual to each site (it is not good to use the same one, YKWIM?). if you both, for instance, use facebook, you can store two or more separate passwords for one site as well. two, it also means that either one of us can login to any site at anytime from anywhere should we feel the need to do so. you might consider something similar if it would help make you (both) more comfortable.

Thanks now your inflating my ego and influencing me to post more. I am glad you think many of my posts are excellent, sometimes I wonder if i make a difference here or not.

@ teetering - Looking forward to hearing your update.

I hope so too! I was thinking and I told him today, I realize that if complete strangers on the internet could accuse me of deceit and lying because I'd prefer to not be spied on and such, then I suppose I get how he could too. The tape playing in his head is telling him that if someone does not want to be spied upon/polygraphed; then they must be guilty of a crime or hiding something. My tape says that the one doing the spying is obviously hiding at least the spying, and likely more.

Anyways, I always took his accusations personally, but coming here and being looked upon in the same way has helped me to see that his feelings are actually quite impersonal, and simply his thought process at work. [/i] He has not been accusing me of doing anything necessarily, he is simply correlating my defensiveness at his accusations to guilt just as I am more likely to correlate his spying to guilt. And I'd like to note that his views are past tense, as he said he quit spying on me years ago and had a "a ha moment", committing to never spying again once he realized that I wasn't cheating and that he was becoming addicted to just finding [i]anything. Nonetheless, eureka moment for me. So, I'm thrilled to clear myself. Much more thrilled than he seems to be now. He has said for quite awhile that he trust me fully, but I'd like to do this just to solidify his inkling. But his enthusiasm seems to be waning over the course of the day about the poly, as he's seen mine increase. Maybe he's just bored with it all. He still said he is happy to do it and to schedule it and get it done. Wish I had the money today! Not so oddly, he seems to be trying to "define" what it means to have had an EA. Yikes on him. He knows that I wouldn't be surprised whatever way this thing goes though, and I've told him such.

So to the ENQ. My top results and my assessments of their satisfaction level were: Intimate Conservation(-3), Honesty and Openness(-2),Family Commitment(+2), Admiration(-2), and Affection(-2).

Other scores: Sexual fulfillment(+1.5) up from what was a consistent(-1) for years. Recreational companionship(+2), Physical Attractiveness(+1.5), Financial Support(+1.5) and Domestic Support(+1.5).

We talked a bit about these things, not at all in depth, hopefully do that tonight. He still hasn't done his yet, but that's because we stayed up last night talking about other things.

Teetering.. That's great progress so far. Pardon my briefness as I am on my phone. You say your hubby is now trying to define an EA? Well if you go to the articles section you will find once called "what is an affair". Read that as it may help you with that answer.

Mng

Here.
What is an Affair?

Thanks both of you. I think I've got it. Basically, the effects of the relationship are more important than actually defining if it was or was not an "affair". Yes? So then, in taking a poly, how does one fairly come up with questions concerning what an affair is?

In this thread there are questions that others have used.
Polygraph Testing

your positive results show he is, in your current estimation, and good father and provider. however, the most important things is that your negative marks are all in the categories of romantic love. this is really good, because it's a clear indicator that you two need to work on building a romantic M, which is exactly what you're at MB for. building romantic Ms is what MB does (if there's been infidelity or not). getting those -s into +s will help build romantic love in both of you, and result in a more fulfilling M.

of course, you still need to work on EPs. however, if your H is one that likes a clear delineation, evidence, definition, whathaveyou, your questionnaire has marked that beautifully. has he completed his one on you yet? often, the WS will mark the BS + on everything, giving you no indication whatsoever on where you can do your part to build romantic love! but as you build RH, this will become clearer. also, you may be able to see for yourself, as you become more familiar with the BCs, when and how you can better meet the romantic love ENs.

it's important to remember that eliminating LBs, which is necessary, doesn't help you add deposits to the LB$, only keeps you from making withdrawals. it is equally important to be making those deposits in order to increase the LB$.

i was just going to hit submit, but want to add one more thing. when you do the EN questionnaires on how to meet ENs, it is vital that you are specific on what actions you need to feel that EN is fulfilled. all spouses, wayward or no, need to *know* how the other person feels fulfilled. we can't read each others minds, no matter how often we are told in books and movies that if someone loves us they automatically know what they should do/say, and what one person perceives as an act of affection may not be viewed the same by the other spouse. dr harley has an example in HNHN of a husband who brought his wife flowers every week to show his love & appreciation for his wife - clearly trying to make LB$ deps. however, wife was allergic to the flowers, and the more she got them, the more she felt angry & upset (after all, why didn't he *know* she didn't want the flowers??), resulting in the husband making LB$ withdrawals! RH a lot earlier would have helped. clear instructions save a lot of heartache!

for example, when it comes to affection, you may be tempted to say: "show me more affection." however, this isn't clear. more of what exactly? this will be personal to you. it may be a kiss in the morning before work. it may be holding hands when going to the shops. it may be hugs after dinner. you see where i'm going with this? be as specific as possible. "i need you to kiss me 4 times a day: before work, when arriving home, after dinner, and before we go to sleep." you may also wish to be even more specific as to what kind of kiss you want. a quick peck before work? a longer (be specific!) kiss? etc. i won't go into details on kisses, but you definitely should, if kissing is one of your affection needs!

Your assessment is right on target Letty, thank you. I consider him a great father and provider for the most part, but romance is a laughable subject for him and the lack of it is a cancer eating into my affections for him.

He completed his ENQ last night as his results were: Affection(-1),Financial Support(-2),Recreational Companionship(+2), Honesty and Openness(+2), Physical Attractiveness(+2), Domestic Support(0), Family Commitment(+2), Admiration(-3), Intimate Conversation(0), and Sexual Fulfillment(+2), not in any particular order of importance because he hasn't ranked them at this time.

From reading LB, I knew that his need for affection and admiration were high(maybe even higher in importance for him than for me?), but I've found it so interesting that he simultaneously seems to all out refuse to give romantic gestures. The resulting feeling for me is that I'm continuously courting(not all too well apparently) someone who claims to be entirely unromantic.

And I had quite a time last night attempting to get him to help me understand what he meant by wanting me to be more affectionate and admiring of him, so yes, a deficit in clear communication and understanding began to rear it's ugly head. In fact, he became frustrated with me that I just didn't "get" what he wanted of me. The more I pressed for specifics, the more frustrating it all became. Because yea, I buy him the sweet cards, and surprise him with his favorite candies, and give him kisses and hugs throughout the day, but he claims that these things feel contrived and like a ploy for me to get what I want. Maybe just a bit of truth in that, and I explained that I do have an expectation that he reciprocate, but that just doesn't seem to sit too well with him right now. So tonight I hope to get more information on what it means to him for me to fulfill those specific needs.

What I've been really focusing on today are my LB behaviors. I realize at this point that it doesn't take much for me to get angry with him, and today was no different. He has a tendency to make agreements with people(anyone really), and not follow through. When these agreements include me directly, or our children, and he ignores them as though he said nothing at all, I get discouraged and upset. I feel lied to, and then when I bring it up, he gets angry at me for getting on his case. Ugh! It turned into a argument twice today, although we made swift(er) than usual recoveries with affection and whatnot. Still, this is a big part of the reason why I rated him low on honesty and openness. I don't feel as though he intends to do much of what he says. Whether does or doesn't do something depends solely on how he feels seemingly, and not on any principle of doing what he said he would. So I feel like I hit a wall in that regard, not knowing what to expect from him, and knowing that bringing this to his attention may get him upset.

hmm, i first notice that he has you at -2FS and 0DS. that's ... interesting. does he agree with you being a SAHM? or did it happen out of necessity? it seems odd, to me, that you'd be at 0DS!

on the upside, +2s for H&O, RC, SF! however, that manly need, admiration, is at an all-time low, -3. that's the first facet of your plan. IC is 0 as well - do many conversations turn into arguments, or unpleasant?

you see, when we women are frustrated (maybe BHs too?) we so want to get our spouses onboard that instead of making it attractive, we turn our best chance into our spouse's least likable possibility through our method of communication. i'm not necessarily talking about you, teetering, because i know this is something i struggled with mightily. you see, you have been on the boards, reading up on all kinds of info, and you're going "YES! i want to do this and make our M ever so much better!" but your H, otoh, has had little to no exposure. plus, if i remember correctly, he's also wayward (?) and isn't processing properly. all HE sees is that you're asking him to do a whole lotta work, when he isn't even happy in the first place.

may i suggest that, instead of trying to "educate" him on MB, you start today by fulfilling those low ENs, and avoid all LBs. do not allow any conversation to be unpleasant, even if that means you are left talking only about the weather. in the meantime, i'm going to have a quick look over your thread, because i can't remember how far into waywardville we were here. i'll be back in a bit. we'll talk later about how you can meet his need for affection more specifically.

ok, i'm back again. teetering, do you know how to add a signature line to your posts? it's very helpful, especially when other posters are helping multiple people, because it's easy to get backgrounds crossed! if you need help doing it, just let me know and i'll give you a step-by-step. i've only just skimmed your posts this time around. i don't think i know the ages of your children?

your sig line can contain you, spouse, children (just DS or DD+age), ages of all, M date, and a very brief synopsis of where you are now. it just helps to have a quick refresher!

now, i see last night you had trouble trying to pin down your H on how to fill his ENs. i know how you feel about this, but try not to pressure him about it at this time. just do the best you can from what you have learned in the past. later, when you are both more relaxed about it, you can elicit exactly what he likes. it is clear that what you're doing now for affection isn't working, because he has you in the negative. have a good think about the past. start with a positive response from him, then what you did to get that response, and work from there.

teetering, we need to talk about 2 other things, and i don't think it's going to make you too happy, but it's got to be done if your M is to have a chance at being successful.

first: you need to establish whether your H is having an affair. we already know his boundaries are poor from your description of him calling/messaging another woman. but you need to know if this is the extent of it or not. it's important that you find out for a few reasons. 1) you can't fight a battle without knowing the parameters of the war. 2) you can't make any decisions about your own life, and those of your children, without complete information. 3) the advice you get here will be different depending on where your relationship really is, because you can't build a long-lasting M if the foundation is crumbly.

second: awhile back you mentioned that you had written some stuff about old boyfriends. you added that it was to "elicit a response." now, i don't know if the response was supposed to be from your H (trying to get him jealous so he would show more interest in you/the M?) or from other readers, but it's really neither here nor there. the thing is, you wrote about personal stuff with other men and your H read it. this must have wounded him badly (intentionally?), and men hang onto stuff. heck, my own husband, when angry enough, would bring up something i had said ages ago - for 17 YEARS! sheesh, and they say women are the ones with long memories and grudges! so this is kind of working against you, whether it's fair or not and whether you want to see it that way or not. it certainly helps explain why he is so suspicious, although i do believe that some of this stems from his own behaviour.

i think that you and your H have gotten to that place where you are so hurt all you want to do is hurt back, because that's the only thing that feels good. i can see that you, teetering, are ready for this to change. now we just need to lay the foundation so that you can change together.

lastly, i'd just like to add that i know sometimes you feel judged. that we are quick to response in what seems to you like a pat way. but the thing is, firstly, all the advice given here comes directly from what we have all learned through dr harley. as a matter of fact, the board moderators are pretty good at keeping advice given here limited to dr harley's plan. secondly, Ms and their downfalls are sorrowfully the same. no matter the participants, everyone says/does the same things, almost as if it's been scripted; it would be laughable if it weren't so sad. after you've been around the boards awhile, and eventually start posting to others, you'll really be able to see this. it's really hard to get past the "my sitch is different" thinking, but once you do (and i'm not saying you personally have this thought), it's actually a relief to understand that you're not different, and that the plan will indeed work for you.

so, i'm off to work for a couple of hours. sorry i've written you a book. the tl;dr version is this:

1) do NOT allow any conversation to end up in an argument today. avoid talking about the relationship (to help avoid an argument). keep conversation light & enjoyable (if it kills you, lol).

2) think carefully about how you can show affection in a way that would please your H.

3) find something you can admire him for today, and do so.

4) think about what i've said about those two topics and post your thoughts.

ps: don't expect anything in return from him. this will just give you an expectation that can be crushed, leading to frustration and arguments. post your feelings here instead.

I thought the scores on FS and DS interesting as well. My SAH situation was initially involuntary, but soon after became a decision we both came to an enthusiastic agreement about. A couple of years in, it began to get more difficult. We were running low on money, had moved to a new state, and neither of us had many friends. He has advanced exponentially since then, but financially we are pulling ourselves out of a hole filled with school loans. It's something he's always been upset about, but also, wanting me to stay home and seeing how it's benefited our children has left him ambivalent about what to do. I've always worked and stayed home, but the money I bring home can only be called supplemental, and it's not consistent, and that frustrates him as well. He doesn't know what to expect from my projects. And an issue I've always had with him in that regard is that he has demeaned my project work, telling me that I'm not working at all because the money I bring home is not much. In the past, I've been working and consistently heard him anxiously yelling to himself or out loud that my work is not worth it, that it's nothing, and that I need to get off and take the children. For awhile, I stopped working because his loud complaints when I did work were so disturbing that I didn't feel it was healthy for our son to choose work and leave him with his father during those handful of bitter hours. So, I'm eager to get back to work and he's eager for me to start making "real" money and supporting us, but because it's not happening right now, he is dissatisfied.

In the area of DS, he would like me to clean more consistently and thoroughly. I rarely ever do dishes or fold laundry, although I'm more likely to clean the rest of the house, but he'd like us to take turns more so that he isn't stuck with those two things so often. That's easily remedied!

We habitually argue and it gets ugly. That's why IC is low.

Don't think he's wayward currently, but he did cross boundaries in my opinion, although I wouldn't call what I know cheating. The godsister he was calling and emailing frequently was no secret. I was aware of them talking and emailing, but not the frequency and not the content. He also shared with an old friend of his that we were getting divorced at a time when we were talking about it, but no action had been taken in that direction with the exception of us both withdrawing from each other. That conversation was something I inadvertently discovered, and I was quite upset that he would discuss our marriage negatively to another woman whom I've never met. He also told another woman that he worked with years prior that we were having marriage trouble after she shared with him that same about herself(go figure!). He seemed shocked that I was upset about the things he'd said to these women, and unless he knew that I'd read his emails that he'd accidentally left open, then he didn't have a chance to delete anything and the extent of the conversations are what I just mentioned.

He told me that he chatted with these women and other female friends on FB and that he expected that I was doing the same too(I definitely wasn't), which he didn't mind. I was surprised, because this was someone who was historically so jealous that he didn't even want me at clubs and bars with him there too. He claimed that his new openness was a result of a new found maturity, which I actually don't fully dispute. He has matured incredibly since we first started out.

The female friend that he told that we were getting divorced had mentioned to him in an email, probably at his prompting from the way it was written, that she was single and hadn't met the "right guy...yet(wink, wink)" and so I believe it's quite possible that he chatted with her a bit too much, perhaps attempting to keep her in the wings in case we really did divorce.

The "god sister" made a point to tell me that he was calling her too much(she actually agitatedly FBed me as he was calling her from another room), and so clearly she felt he was misleading her and out of line. When she found out I was pregnant a couple of months later, she pretty much stopped talking to him altogether which confirmed my thinking. He claimed he had no clue why and she was like family(this is true), feeling as though he could call and talk to her whenever he felt like it; and of course, he could never even be attracted to her since she was like his sister growing up.

So at the absolute least, he has little understanding of women and what attracts them to men(possible as proven in our relationship all too often), and at the most, he fully gets it and was exploiting himself and everyone else at the time because he felt as though we were over(also possible).

My journaling that he found online via keylogging me was around the same time as his chatting with these other gals. After years of him pushing me away, I had finally(the second or so finally!) given up attempting to reach out to him and open up and just began introspecting. We're both already introverted, but I just starting writing because talking to him wasn't working. What I wrote was about exes, but particularly one guy who wasn't officially an ex and who I met while I was dating my husband. We'd gotten very close and I had every opportunity in the world to be with him, but I turned him down for my husband, who was my then out of state, mostly online bf. We did kiss twice though, and I told my then bf/now husband so after he pressed me a couple of days. That was pretty much the end of my relationship with my guy friend, and with a crappy marriage, I wondered to myself why when I was single, I had turned down someone who was literally crazy for me, for someone who seemed to always be not so enthused. I verbalized this to my husband as well before, but I did it in anger, and perhaps he didn't believe that I really felt the way I did. The rehashing hurt my husband, and he also wasn't fully aware of how much I'd cared about the guy and how much he'd cared about me, which hurt him too. Although, I told him I wasn't sure why he was surprised. He treated me very poorly our first years together, and I stayed for pitiful reasons. I kept the old guy friend(whom I haven't spoken to at all with the exception of the initial "hey, how's your life been since then" years ago, as a FB friend until last year when I realized that if my marriage was going to continue, that I needed to respect my Hs wishes and delete the guy from FB as he'd likely wanted years ago. I just didn't feel it justified since I intentionally had not had any meaningful conservations with him since we "dated", and haven't spoken to him at all since the beginning of my marriage when we first "friended" each other online. Any way, it was insensitive of me to have him as a "friend", and it's likely that part of me did it out of resentment and anger, the other part of me was just curious about what had happened of him, and what I saw in him in the first place.

On another note though, our day was amazingly fabulous!! I got a little put off when he began getting dressed at the time we agreed to leave for church this morning. We ultimately missed church all together, but he swooped in and made it better by making the entire day a family outing day. So we both scored very high points with each other. And the night is still young and my kiddos are in bed. We're reading IC in His Needs/Her Needs, and then watching a movie before bed, so I'll end here for now.

Thanks for hanging in there with me, and helping me to wade through these murky waters.

One day at a time Teetering! ... Thats a great update!

that *was* a great update! i hope today is going well, too. i am so pleased to hear you guys are reading some MB books. keep working. baby steps. keep those good feelings going.

Thank you both for the encouragement!

Three more days to add to the "going well" pile. Minor bumps along the way that have been peacefully discussed. DS, the cleaning part at least because I've come to enjoy cooking, is what IC is to my husband: deplorable! So, I really have been putting in the effort, washing clothes and folding them, cleaning daily, just generally making sure that these aren't things he has to think about while he's working.

I was pretty impressed with myself actually, and was a bit dismayed when he came behind me telling me that I'd missed the proverbial spot. We sat down and talked about that one, and he expressed that he didn't feel as though DS was best described as his need, rather a universal requirement, therefore he wasn't all too blown, but nonetheless appreciative. Not the response I was going for, and I've feared/experienced that he may express a need, I make every attempt to fulfill it, and he replies that it's just not good enough. Really smothers my soul for a moment in time. I wanted for him to understand that many of the task involved in DS are almost painful to me, and I'm having to reframe so that I can see the great mission involved in order to stomach them. Gotta work on that!

Otherwise, he's really working hard at making my days pleasant and we're enjoying reading together at night over a glass of wine and light music.

hey teetering! The Harleys read your email on the show today and you can listen to it by clicking on the "rebroadcast" button until noon tomorrow. It should be in the archives a few days afterwards.

I only caught a small part of it, but the gist of it was "snooping is not a requirement, but a RIGHT." It was a pretty good segment!

Thanks for letting me know Melody! I didn't see an email from them saying it would be on today. That was some great information, and I'm glad I got clarification.

I caught the entire segment. What I got from it was that if spying makes your spouse feel secure, then let them have their way and don't take offense to their insecurities or suspicions. Gladly meet their need for more information, which is a right of theirs to have. Otherwise, spying/investigating is not a requirement for a happy marriage or MB if you feel secure and essentially trust your partner.

So as it relates to my story, the Harley's did not say that polygraphing or investigating would be something they would recommend unless either of us felt a pressing need for whatever reason.

Exactly! We recommend that kind of stuff when there is very strong indication of an affair. I am glad you got your answers from the horses mouth..

Wow ... great progress here. thanks for the update! Keep up the good work .. it can only get better if you follow the principals outlined here.

So far two steps backwards this week. Still focusing on meeting his stated En, but he says he needs more than that. Mainly, that I need to get out of the house and get a "real" life. A sincere part of him feels like my staying home with our children is/has been worthless and he continues to make that clear. He even stated that perhaps he will quit his job and become a sahd, that way he can spend his whole life worrying about how to meet my needs versus living an actual life.

I get what he is saying. He resents the downtime I have; he has less than I do, and because of that, feels meeting my needs is impractical and unfair. If I had a real life, I would have less concern for our marriage. How does one meet the needs of a spouse who is fundamentally attracted to distance? He wants independence and financial support most, and alone time.


Also, romance is for children, he says. My longterm desire for it is a result of media influence. It's petty and frivolous. Grown adults had better things to concern themselves with. This is his rationale for choosing against meeting most of my needs. He hopes to sell me on their minimalization. Not sure how to handle that one.

Uhm. We don't know how as the majority of those needs go against everything MB tries to teach us.

Independence creates the desire for more IB.

So he'd like to be married to you in a way where he has to do little for you and spend as little time with you as possible? Why be married then?

But let me back up � is that what he said? I like my independence, I want you to help support us and I�d like to be left alone?


Is that what you think? Is that how you�d like your marriage to be? Void of Romance?

I don�t like his theory and it�s my assumption you�re dealing with someone who may simply not be marriage material.

I love the way he makes it sound childish as a means to back you down from everything this site stands for. This program works � one just has to choose that it has sound principals instead of poo-pooing it just because one doesn�t want to do the work.

I would communicate to him that you feel disrespected. That you aren�t a child. That you are a grown woman and you do know what romance feels like and that it is a cornerstone of a great marriage. The reality is is that truly great marriages have romance. I have to have romantic feelings for my wife or else I feel I�m settling for less than what is optimal. Why bother settling when you can have it all?

Wow, your H's comments kinda struck a nerve with me. I feel a little fired up over it.

Actually I feel sorry for him mostly ... and for you, of course, teetering. It can't be good being married to someone who wants you to settle for his crumbs.

Ugh, I really hate this, and sadly it's no different from what is typical between us. He really defines himself by his independence and he has always said that he wanted the same for me and that I didn't make the cut. Yet, his behaviors when I have gotten just a tad out of reach for him have been to quite literally track me down and reel me back in, hence the OP. It's an absolute maze of confusion and power imbalances from my view.

His ideal would be for me to grant him fully his own sense of independence, and that my "independence" act in service of his. I am to be available to him when he needs, but his availability to me is based upon how he feels and whatever else he may be up to.

He does not believe that he needs to be doing anything specifically for me romantically. It flies in the face of what he thinks about relationships. You could say this is an issue of a lack of POJA, but the POJA is too confining for him. He's free! No one tells him how to live his life or what to do. In fact, he'll do just the opposite if you so much as suggest him to do differently. Sometimes he will comply, but then he realizes that he is in fact complying and becomes inflamed. He's terrified of being taken for a ride, and will not surrender to mutuality. He must be one up, or he necessarily feels put upon.

And yes, the above are things that he said. He needs me to get out of the house and work, get a real life, bring in some real money; then he'll likely have more to talk about or find himself willing. This is not new either, we argued about money before we were even a couple of months into dating. He needed me to get a better job and break all financial reliance on my family. I was a teenager at the time and full-time student, he was living with his mother.

I can't help but wonder whether or not he believed that I was his ticket to financial freedom and everyday that he has to work and make money and I'm not bringing in any myself is a total disappointment to him. My family is relatively well off and his is working poor. When we met online, he told me quite a few lies to suggest that he was uncomfortable with that fact.

His theory on romantic love isn't new either. I asked him yesterday if he was ever actually in love with me. He became defensive and angry said yes, and then asked me what it meant to be in love at all. And actually, these types of philosophical questions are interesting to me, so I didn't take much offense; but he proceeded to tell me(as when we were dating) that romantic love doesn't last, and that it's childish to expect it to.

Like you, I believe romantic love is a cornerstone to a great marriage. It compels you to meet your spouses needs because their joy is your joy. We've never been in agreement about that, and I'm running out of steam trying to sell that message.

I'd also add that when we met, he wanted to be rich and famous. He was in the entertainment industry, not doing much at the time really, but with big dreams and a potential for going somewhere. He was in and out of clubs, surrounded by beautiful women and famous artist every week. A number of our friends have made it to international acclaim, their families flailing, but nonetheless, the have the material things in life and the notoriety. I feel as though he may resent our marriage and lack of excessive riches because he believes that his potential alternative may have been more suitable to the life he wanted to live.

In short, I married a rock star at heart, turned regular old guy. And to top it off, I make a horrible groupie.

I don't think he knows what romantic means. I bet he's thinking of the infatuation stage of a R. And yes that does die down and it is replace with something that is way more adult than that.

Romance is the feeling that is learned when one feels safe, secure and loved by their partner.

I would agree with this. It sounds like his idea of romance is what you'd read out of a romance book. Romance is so much deeper and different for each person. My wife and I have candle light dinners and I write her poetry and have written and recorded a few love songs for her. But we also sometimes just take a walk while holding hands. Or we'll curl up on the couch together and I'll tell her how good it feels to be next to her. It's that text I send her for no other reason than to tell her I miss her and am looking forward to coming home to her smile. Sometimes it's taking her mom home at night because I don't want her driving alone in the dark. Maybe it's just a hug out of the blue. Romance is so often that subjective word that most people don't really know how to define but have preconceived notions about what it isn't.

This is insulting, demeaning, and says he doesn't value what you do.



Being a stay at home parent is a lot harder than people realize that haven't done it. I'm a school teacher and until my wife lost her job, I would be pretty much a stay at home parent during the summers (of course it's nice having paid summers off). Often we don't appreciate what others do until we have to do that.



Oh the word fair. One thing I've learned from teaching is that there isn't a set standard of what fair is or isn't. Basically what is fair for one student may not be fair for another student. And we can get so trapped in the 'poor me'. Is it fair that one of my close friends had a mom that met a wealthy guy, married him, they moved to Hawaii, and left him a paid off house, a new truck, a boat, and nearly a six figure yearly spending allowance? Is it fair that someone less qualified than me was hired for the position I want to be working in because the other guy was friends with the hiring administration? However, does it really matter if any of that is fair? And does it do me any good to dwell? Nope.



He wants a room mate. This is not how marriage works.



I'm pretty sure your desire for romance is normal. Just like your desire to want to have a connection with your spouse and be intertwined completely in each others lives.

Don't get me wrong, I like playing beer pong sometimes and other times going to the shooting range and every once in awhile jamming out with my guy friends. I like my times when I can veg and zone out on a video game or not being distracted in the weight room. But my wife is my best friend, and the one that I want to spend the majority of my time with. Going somewhere with her and engaging in recreational activities or just curled up on the couch watching a movie with her I'd pick to do over anything else. When you're in love...like intimate, romantic love, you crave the other so deeply. We've been married 10 years and together for 13 years. And she still drives me absolutely crazy...just like she did the first time I saw her in those tight jeans and long brown hair flowing to her waist.

Here's something I posted in another thread that I think I meant to post in yours...

I've been thinking about your viewpoint on snooping. My wife and i have each others passwords to most everything. This helps because, for example, i have 50 gigs of storage space on drop box. If my wife were to setup her own dropbox acct, she'd only get a few megabytes. We share Google music and this is set up through my email, so she has my password to my email so she can log into Google music. I have her passwords because i tend to have to trouble shot and install stuff on her laptop. I don't go through her emails or texts or whatnot but I have the password if i wanted to and she can't care less if I do check. This itself because of openness is reassuring. I remember one time, a guy that was on my wife's Facebook friends sent her in my opinion an inappropriate message. Now he wasn't hitting on her, flirting with her, or anything like that. But it was inappropriate nevertheless I responded to him that he was never to connect my wife again or there would be serious issues. I told my wife that I didn't want her talking to him.

She immediately unfriended and blocked him and told me she found it flattering that I was jealous and territorial and that she admired me standing up like a man for his wife.

So that's how my wife and I are with passwords and stuff. Every great once in awhile I'll get nosy/curious and check to see who she's texting. And she gets curious who I'm talking to also. But since I'm not hiding anything, then I don't care what she reads. And, really, if she wanted to constantly check my emails and texts, it wouldn't bother me. I'd want to know if I was doing something to cause her to feel like she needed to be constantly checking on me. Or maybe even I might wonder if she was doing suspicious activities that were causing her to be suspicious of me. I would most definitely think something was up if she was guarded with her passwords.

We certainly have different ideas of what romance is. For example, he likes to ruffle my hair or pin me into corners and wrestle. He will hold hands in private or in the car if the spirit moves him, but is generally uncomfortable with such in public. He is ok with brief hugs and kisses and claims that he has a greater need for affection than I give him. But, I'm not sure I understand what he wants. Walking side by side in public can be a bit much for him. He really hates waiting for me to get out of the car or walking with me because he says I walk too slow. To strangers, he is very affectionate and sweet and appears to be that way to me, but in private is mostly detached. I ask him directly what he needs from me, but it's difficult to get a straight answer.

Our RC is high though. We sit on the couch a watch movies or tv every night. We really like that. But without the tv on or other distractions, he seems unable to manage well.

I've asked specifically for months to just write the occasional sweet note or purchase a small little surprise gift or something. He has refused, and I believe it's because he knows I want it and he doesn't want to feel as though he is submitting to my request. He cannot follow my lead as it relates to me.

It's lovely that you and your wife have that bond.:) I know it exist. I've experienced it and seen it myself. I'm just not sure it's possible for us. It's not what he seems to want with me.

Well, I was speaking from the deeper emotional side of romanticism. We don't tend to have a lot of public affection, we do the typical holding hands or my arm around her. We always stand really close to each other and walk near each other. We don't tend to kiss a lot out in public but plenty of hugs and high fives happen. Around friends we're a bit more affectionate than we are out in public. And at home...well, our son tells us that we're inappropriate a lot.

We're both very playful with each and will wrestle, flirt a ton, and she's quite fond of slapping me on the rear end. However, I think our text messages would make a porn movie star blush.




It's taken a lot of work and patience to get to where we are now. When I first found this site, we were about on the brink of divorce. We really didn't like each other much at all. And we weren't nice to each other. All I knew is that I wanted to save my marriage. My wife didn't care so much about saving the marriage as she wanted us together for the kiddos. We used to never let each other 'be vulnerable' around each other. And the thought of spending alone time with no distractions...just talking and enjoying each others company was a terrifying thought.

This program can work if both of you can get on board.

No, he doesn't value what I do, even though it's something we agreed to. But he is at least intellectually aware of how difficult it is. It isn't uncommon that he takes the kids so that I can work a couple of hours a day from home and bring in some income, during this time he frequently loses it. The crying and screaming is unbearable to him. He expects me to stop working and help him out, and if I don't, he will loudly complain that my job is worthless and isn't worth his time. That in that case, my having a job is unfair to him because now he has to take the kids! I will say he isn't like this as much anymore, but if my working and him having the kids inconveniences him, the suddenly it's my working(not NOT working) that is problematic.

I agree on your idea of fair, and I do think he wants a roommate. He told me long ago that his ideal woman would be waiting home for him in bed when he got home early in the morning from entertaining. And honestly, no one who superficially knows him could ever guess him to say that. It's even hard for me to believe sometimes. His FC is very high, and yet, I still believe a big part of him wants me to be the anchor at home while he goes out and off and does whatever he decides to in life(which he doesn't and hasn't during our marriage). I just think it's what he think he'd prefer. Furthermore, I need to do this smiling and content with whatever he decides I deserve in return. In this way, he can seem so cold, but oftentimes he is such a caring person. He witnessed mostly roommate marriages growing up, and while he will tell you that he hated it, perhaps he feels safe with the familiarity and incapable of offering more. He laughed when I told him I wanted a best friend in him years ago.

Where does this leave me? The cyclical nature of our relationship is maddening. He was reading HNHN last week and we were doing great, and this week has decided that it's boring and time wasting. This is typical. He is bored very easily. He actually said that romance is for new relationships and that relationships are exciting because they are new, but there is nothing exciting about talking to the same person all the time, particularly since he already knows everything about me and sees me all the time. This is why he wants me to go away for awhile. Then maybe I'll be interesting to him again. What can I do beyond what I'm doing?

teetering, my H was a little like yours. he was raised by a SAHM, and enjoys the benefits of one - tidy house, a "real" dinner made, all his business tended to. however, he *also* wants the comfortable lifestyle from our second income, and has always felt that married SAH-women basically were leeches (ugh - where do they get this idea from?? this really bugged me, as i have worked ever since i was 16, except for the first two years after i had dd - and then i worked from home). it did not seem to occur to him that he was raised by a *single* SAHM (dad died when he was 5), who was supported by a benefit (widow's pension) so she could raise the kids, and no male role model to see how the other half worked. it seemed to me like a whole lot of "i want the best of both worlds, and *you* have to do all the hard work and make it happen." it used to really piss me off, and we would argue over it a *lot.*

it took a while (this was years ago) for me to demonstrate how i could a) be a SAHM or b) work full time, but that i was *not* able to do both. (i know many women do, and my hat's off to them. i can't do it.) so we found compromises. when we lived stateside, i taught evening classes so i could have my days free. i have a weekly cleaner. he helps out a lot with the daily stuff (dinner, dishes, etc).

what it came down to was communicating our needs in a MB way, and coming up with *solutions.* i think your H is in the not-ready-for-MB state. so what it comes down to is this: you either need to be able to wake him up from this self-centered thinking or go into plan b. if he is refusing to meet your ENs, dr harley recommends plan b. what do you think?

before i sign off - where do we stand in wayward land here? is there an OP?

Hi there! Your past situation is remarkably similar to mine. In my husband's and my case, there are some cultural differences that are also contributing to these issues. It's boiling down to expectations not being met.

We hardly spoke at all today. Usually we speak throughout the day superficially. He came to me after work and offered to watch MB videos on Youtube. I'd be excited if it weren't for the fact that this type of thing is also typical. My challenge may be to keep things new and exciting for him, because for him, if it aint shiny, it aint happening.

Plan B seems implausible because I have no family nearby and no ability at this moment to support my own household. What are some things others have done in this situation? He is certainly trying to convince me that my needs are ridiculous.

As for waywardness, I'm not inclined to believe he's had any affair. My husband's always been detached as much, his behavior is not new. I've never had an affair of any kind. We have our passwords to online sites saved now thanks to some suggestions on here and we've always shared a cell and a car. It's a rare year when we go somewhere overnight without the other, even one night. I can only think of a handful of times in our marriage. I feel mostly secure as far as fidelity is concerned.

have you checked out the link mel just posted about the video series for HNHN? i'm sure it would be helpful to you, especially if he's willing to do video.

Not just yet. Headed there now.