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Originally Posted by Littlebit3
A mother can take it too far...... I know that when I check-up on my kids, it is for protection of them. I try not to cross the boundary, but they also have to be fair when setting theirs. I am sure your mother meant well..... Maybe she didn't realize how controlling she got with it. I don't know...

I do know that it is different in a marriage. Neither of you should have to snoop. It should be transparent and gladly accepted. I know that sounds odd. But, think about it this way... Occasional checking a keylogger or cell phone records should be enthusiastically desired as it helps foster security and truthfullness. It protects your marriage. It should never be secretive. It just is important in this day of technology, different avenues of communication, etc.....
She meant well, yes and I have forgiven her for that and we are close. But she is also a closed up person, not willing to let people in but desiring to know as much as she can about others. Similar to my husband.

Again, my husband has had my passwords and whatnot for years. I don't like it at all, because I think it's a power play, but I allow it. What disgust me most in this regard is his lack of reciprocation.


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teetering, I feel that all this has worn you down. How could it not have. I value honesty as well. I think we all do. I really just want people to do the right thing...... The thing is, some people don't.

If you have been worn down, find some inner strengh so you can fight through this. YOU will be better for it.

There is so much you need to learn. It is all here. Take the Emotional Needs Questionaire. Maybe you should get some of the books, His Needs Her Needs is one.

Read up on Lovebusters, meeting emotional needs, POJA. These things are the "how to" behind creating a good, romantic, fulfilling marriage. We think we know how to do that when we get married, but the longer you are around here, you will realize you really didn't know anything about how to be married.


BS Me 47,WH 49
DS's x3 17, 10, 7
Multiple D-Days
No disclosure by WH. No EP's, no transparency, no guilt or remorse either.
Plan C DOES NOT WORK!
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Originally Posted by teetering
[
Proof has come to me in the course of our relationship. I've never needed to actively look. I trust that a liar will eventually expose himself. The question is what to do about it. Rather or not he is lying to me is not the reason I'd leave in any case, and so perhaps that's where the confusion is.

You're catching me at the tail end of a dramatic saga...don't judge. smile I've hardly been complacent, but giving up may be more like it.

Like I noted earlier, you are here for validation to demonize your husband and are not looking for solutions. You aren't going to get any help demonizing your husband here.

Have you already decided to leave your husband?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by teetering
[
My mother was quite invasive when I was teen. She'd go in my backpack and read my letters and such. I saw it is quite the violation of our relationship. It was damaging to us, and I see parallels. We still have a relationship that is not as open as my relationships with others who have themselves been more self disclosing. A difference in temperament and relationship expectation, surely.

But you are not a child anymore. Your mother did not "violate" your privacy because a parent has a right and a responsibility to know everything her child does. You are a grown up now.

Secrecy has no place in marriage.
True, but her right to snoop does not negate my feeling of violation or the resulting fall out in our relationship which took years to repair. So, yes, my husband can snoop all he wants. But in snooping, he is choosing a behavior that does not occur in protected dome. His behavior impacts me, and while I permit him to do his snooping and have stuck around, he does not grant me the same. It's intolerable.


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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by Littlebit3
It should never be secretive.

Just want to point out that snooping *IS* secretive, or it is not snooping. It should be secret.

Thank you for pointing that out..... I was trying to say in a good, secure marriage, that it should be willingly accepted, known that it will be done... etc.... Maybe secretive wasn't the right word to use there. Did I explain this better?

I was not saying that her need to snoop now should not be secretive. Now, she needs to be a detective for her marriage.


BS Me 47,WH 49
DS's x3 17, 10, 7
Multiple D-Days
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Plan C DOES NOT WORK!
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Originally Posted by teetering
[
True, but her right to snoop does not negate my feeling of violation or the resulting fall out in our relationship which took years to repair.

That is the attitude of a child, though. A mature adult accepts and understands that a parent has to do things she might not like.

Quote
So, yes, my husband can snoop all he wants. But in snooping, he is choosing a behavior that does not occur in protected dome. His behavior impacts me, and while I permit him to do his snooping and have stuck around, he does not grant me the same. It's intolerable.

No, but you said you wouldn't snoop so this makes no sense. Why would you be "furious" about something you say you have no intention of doing anyway?

You are speaking the language of doublespeak. You say you are completely "transparent" and don't hide things yet you are "FURIOUS" when he sees what you are doing via snooping. All that tells me is that you are not really "transparent" because you only want him looking at what you have direct control over. In other words, you want to hide everything else.

Your posts indicate a very wayward mind. I can understand why your husband snoops on you. Nothing you say makes any sense.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by teetering
[
Proof has come to me in the course of our relationship. I've never needed to actively look. I trust that a liar will eventually expose himself. The question is what to do about it. Rather or not he is lying to me is not the reason I'd leave in any case, and so perhaps that's where the confusion is.

You're catching me at the tail end of a dramatic saga...don't judge. smile I've hardly been complacent, but giving up may be more like it.

Like I noted earlier, you are here for validation to demonize your husband and are not looking for solutions. You aren't going to get any help demonizing your husband here.

Have you already decided to leave your husband?

I see the primary responsibility for Teetering as being a conflict avoider.

She's on unequal ground with respect to her husband's snooping because she's been trained by him to not invade his "privacy". She's here seeking validation because she recognizes the inequities in what he imposes on her yet refuses for himself. But this is not the place for that confrontation.

It is directly with him. Teetering - what is the thing you fear by facing him down and demanding equal openness and honesty from him?

Truthfully - what is the bottom line you're afraid to face?


Cafe Plan B link http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2182650&page=1

The ? that made recovery possible: "Which lovebuster do I do the most that hurts the worst"?

The statement that signaled my personal recovery and the turning point in our marriage recovery: "I don't need to be married that badly!"

If you're interested in saving your relationship, you'll work on it when it's convenient. If you're committed, you'll accept no excuses.
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Originally Posted by Littlebit3
teetering, I feel that all this has worn you down. How could it not have. I value honesty as well. I think we all do. I really just want people to do the right thing...... The thing is, some people don't.

If you have been worn down, find some inner strengh so you can fight through this. YOU will be better for it.

There is so much you need to learn. It is all here. Take the Emotional Needs Questionaire. Maybe you should get some of the books, His Needs Her Needs is one.

Read up on Lovebusters, meeting emotional needs, POJA. These things are the "how to" behind creating a good, romantic, fulfilling marriage. We think we know how to do that when we get married, but the longer you are around here, you will realize you really didn't know anything about how to be married.

Littlebit, I really appreciate your tone and your support. I am completely worn out and tired, and judgement from strangers is not what I'm looking for. I feel completely responsible for the state of my relationship with my husband, and for the sanity of my children, and all of that. I've been honest with my husband, and want the same. I don't feel as though I can force someone to be honest and to love me in the way that I need, and the thought of even attempting to do so is disturbing. I've expressed to him what I need and want from him, and he refuses at every turn. We've read many of Dr. Harley's articles and a couple of his books, amongst many other books on intimacy and relationships and we end up in the same place all over again. It's this relationship that has taught me to value myself over marriage and someone else, but of course I didn't start there. Anyway, I thank you for your approach and helping me to soften up my anger a bit.

Last edited by teetering; 01/01/13 04:18 PM.

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Originally Posted by KaylaAndy
[
She's on unequal ground with respect to her husband's snooping because she's been trained by him to not invade his "privacy". She's here seeking validation because she recognizes the inequities in what he imposes on her yet refuses for himself. But this is not the place for that confrontation.

She is not going to get validation in demonizing her husband, Kayla. She will get validation of positive efforts to change the balance of power in her marriage and resolve the problems. However, she seems not to be willing to do that.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by teetering
Littlebit, I really appreciate your tone and your support. I am completely worn out and tired, and judgement from strangers is not what I'm looking for. I feel completely responsible for the state of my relationship with my husband, and for the sanity of my children, and all of that. I've been honest with my husband, and want the same. I don't feel as though I can force someone to be honest and to love me in the way that I need, and the thought of even attempting to do so is disturbing. I've expressed to him what I need and want from him, and he refuses at every turn. We've read many of Dr. Harley's articles and a couple of his books, amongst many other books on intimacy and relationships and we end up in the same place all over again. It's this relationship that has taught me to value myself over marriage and someone else, but of course I didn't start there. Anyway, I thank you for your approach and helping me to soften up my anger a bit.

What are you willing to do to solve the problems in your marriage?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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That's because she's a conflict avoider. It's easier to demonize her husband than face the fact that she's unwilling to face down his displeasure to require his respect.

Mel - I recognize a classic conflict avoider when I see one - remember - you spot it you got it?

She needs to snoop. She's afraid of what she'll find. but she's also afraid of his anger.

It's easier to demonize him here and try to get sympathy than deal with her own character defect that allows him the license to not be open and honest with her.


Cafe Plan B link http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2182650&page=1

The ? that made recovery possible: "Which lovebuster do I do the most that hurts the worst"?

The statement that signaled my personal recovery and the turning point in our marriage recovery: "I don't need to be married that badly!"

If you're interested in saving your relationship, you'll work on it when it's convenient. If you're committed, you'll accept no excuses.
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Originally Posted by KaylaAndy
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by teetering
[
Proof has come to me in the course of our relationship. I've never needed to actively look. I trust that a liar will eventually expose himself. The question is what to do about it. Rather or not he is lying to me is not the reason I'd leave in any case, and so perhaps that's where the confusion is.

You're catching me at the tail end of a dramatic saga...don't judge. smile I've hardly been complacent, but giving up may be more like it.

Like I noted earlier, you are here for validation to demonize your husband and are not looking for solutions. You aren't going to get any help demonizing your husband here.

Have you already decided to leave your husband?

I see the primary responsibility for Teetering as being a conflict avoider.

She's on unequal ground with respect to her husband's snooping because she's been trained by him to not invade his "privacy". She's here seeking validation because she recognizes the inequities in what he imposes on her yet refuses for himself. But this is not the place for that confrontation.

It is directly with him. Teetering - what is the thing you fear by facing him down and demanding equal openness and honesty from him?

Truthfully - what is the bottom line you're afraid to face?

I have faced him directly many times over, and he gaslights. This web is quite tangled and I just don't know my way out, honestly. I don't know what I'm afraid of, or if I'm actually afraid, or just ambivalent. I have no where to go in order to enact a temporary separation, which is the one thing that may actually move us forward.


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Originally Posted by teetering
[Littlebit, I really appreciate your tone and your support. I am completely worn out and tired, and judgement from strangers is not what I'm looking for. I feel completely responsible for the state of my relationship with my husband, and for the sanity of my children, and all of that. I've been honest with my husband, and want the same. I don't feel as though I can force someone to be honest and to love me in the way that I need, and the thought of even attempting to do so is disturbing. I've expressed to him what I need and want from him, and he refuses at every turn. We've read many of Dr. Harley's articles and a couple of his books, amongst many other books on intimacy and relationships and we end up in the same place all over again. It's this relationship that has taught me to value myself over marriage and someone else, but of course I didn't start there. Anyway, I thank you for your approach and helping me to soften up my anger a bit.

You are very welcome teetering. I really like this forum. Believe it or not, the people here really care about helping you. They will help build you up and "make you see" that you have some things to own and change to be the best you, and to help you re-build your marriage the right way. Please don't look at it as criticism from strangers. You have your own "fog" they have to break down before they can help you. We have opinions and ideas that are not helping us as women or helping our marriage. They have been there and have already learned these things, so really, we have a lot to learn. I have been around here long enough to learn that while some of what is said to help us can be harsh, it really does have truth and a beautiful silver lining if you allow it to help you.

They need to be tough on you to get YOU out of your own fog to rise to the occasion at hand. Long habits that have allowed all of this are hard to break. So, let us help you. Let us break down your walls so you can re-build yourself into who you really want to be sans the bad habits and behaviors that have come along with handling all of this wrong.

Last edited by Littlebit3; 01/01/13 04:30 PM.

BS Me 47,WH 49
DS's x3 17, 10, 7
Multiple D-Days
No disclosure by WH. No EP's, no transparency, no guilt or remorse either.
Plan C DOES NOT WORK!
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Originally Posted by KaylaAndy
Mel - I recognize a classic conflict avoider when I see one - remember - you spot it you got it?

She needs to snoop. She's afraid of what she'll find. but she's also afraid of his anger.

It's easier to demonize him here and try to get sympathy than deal with her own character defect that allows him the license to not be open and honest with her.

Like I said before, validating her in the demonization of her husband is going to get her exactly nowhere regardless of the cause of her demonization. It is a distraction from taking the steps to resolve the problem.



"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by KaylaAndy
That's because she's a conflict avoider. It's easier to demonize her husband than face the fact that she's unwilling to face down his displeasure to require his respect.

Mel - I recognize a classic conflict avoider when I see one - remember - you spot it you got it?

She needs to snoop. She's afraid of what she'll find. but she's also afraid of his anger.

It's easier to demonize him here and try to get sympathy than deal with her own character defect that allows him the license to not be open and honest with her.

this^^^

teetering, do you, deep inside, believe that your husband is not committed to your marriage, and you are displacing your anger, because it would be too painful and life-disrupting to find out the truth? are you upset with yourself/your husband because you realise that you will have to get proactive and start snooping to find out what is really going on, and then have to make decisions about it?

it would be easier for everyone, but mainly you, if you just came right out and baldly stated your true feelings about your M. (i know this is hard.) so far, i've gleaned that you've never really been happy because you feel your husband is not committed to your M. additionally, i think you have a terrible fear about where you M is. would this be correct?


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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by teetering
Littlebit, I really appreciate your tone and your support. I am completely worn out and tired, and judgement from strangers is not what I'm looking for. I feel completely responsible for the state of my relationship with my husband, and for the sanity of my children, and all of that. I've been honest with my husband, and want the same. I don't feel as though I can force someone to be honest and to love me in the way that I need, and the thought of even attempting to do so is disturbing. I've expressed to him what I need and want from him, and he refuses at every turn. We've read many of Dr. Harley's articles and a couple of his books, amongst many other books on intimacy and relationships and we end up in the same place all over again. It's this relationship that has taught me to value myself over marriage and someone else, but of course I didn't start there. Anyway, I thank you for your approach and helping me to soften up my anger a bit.

What are you willing to do to solve the problems in your marriage?

I'm willing to change my mind about him and who I feel like he is, and to continue to do things that make him feel secure and loved by me. I'm willing to learn new ways of being with him. But I need a return, and that's my issue. I'm not getting reciprocation, and that eventually leads me to feeling taking advantage of and used up. I also get blatant dismissal. As in, "I'm not letting you have my passwords" or "I'm not writing you sweet letters, even if you write them to me, and even if that's what you need from me sometimes." I'm spent.


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Originally Posted by teetering
[

I have faced him directly many times over, and he gaslights. This web is quite tangled and I just don't know my way out, honestly. I don't know what I'm afraid of, or if I'm actually afraid, or just ambivalent. I have no where to go in order to enact a temporary separation, which is the one thing that may actually move us forward.

Yet your presenting problem was not "my husband mistreats me!!" but "my husband snoops on me!" A completely different problem now.

I will ask again, do you have a plan to leave him? And if you do, WHY? What has caused you to want to leave him?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by teetering
... he gaslights. This web is quite tangled and I just don't know my way out, honestly. I don't know what I'm afraid of, or if I'm actually afraid, or just ambivalent. I have no where to go in order to enact a temporary separation, which is the one thing that may actually move us forward.

aha. the crux. yes, this may indeed be the case. is that what you need help with? it does take a lot of support to be able to do it.


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Originally Posted by teetering
I'm willing to change my mind about him and who I feel like he is, and to continue to do things that make him feel secure and loved by me. I'm willing to learn new ways of being with him. But I need a return, and that's my issue. I'm not getting reciprocation, and that eventually leads me to feeling taking advantage of and used up. I also get blatant dismissal. As in, "I'm not letting you have my passwords" or "I'm not writing you sweet letters, even if you write them to me, and even if that's what you need from me sometimes." I'm spent.

This tells me is a) hiding something and b) is emotionally checked out of the marriage.

But I need more information and I have asked these questions now 5 times. Please answer.

1. are you married?

2. how long married?

3. any children?

4. any affairs?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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You are not going to be able to fix this without some conflict teetering. He isn't going to "like" you holding him accountable, or you demanding that he be transparent. He likes that he has been able to get you into the position where he can be secretive about what he wants to be secretive about.

You are going to have to be willing to stand up for yourself and NOW. Get ready to set high boundaries for yourself and be TOUGH, loving, but TOUGH to hold him to them. You DESERVE this tettering. This is your life and your marriage too. It is only beneficial if it meets the needs of both individuals in it! You have to be authentic, honest and ready to fight for what you deserve in your life. It won't be easy if you are a conflict avoider. Griping helps you feel better. But, I know that the pros here ALSO want to see actions on your part. By what you have written, it is pretty obvious that you have formed a bad habit of sitting back and doing nothing, so they are preparing you to step it up!!!! Are you ready?


BS Me 47,WH 49
DS's x3 17, 10, 7
Multiple D-Days
No disclosure by WH. No EP's, no transparency, no guilt or remorse either.
Plan C DOES NOT WORK!
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