YES!!!!!!

MHO.

E L,
If you wife agrees to go then just say ok and tell her you are making the appt. Let her know how happy it makes you that she is willing to work on this with you and let her know how much hope you have that things will get better with the help of MC. That's it. Don't wait for her to fully agree and certainly don't expect her to come gushing with agreement. If she says she will go then you take the bull by the horns, make the appt. and hold her to her word.

I don't recommend "telling on her" when you get there. Instead assure your wife about how much it means to you that you are there. Let the C get to know her and ease her into the session. you can certainly tell the C that she doesn't necessarily want to be there but do that in private. Keep your words to your W positive and hopeful.

Sound like something you can do? Ask her about MC again when you two are in a more peaceful mode. Let her know that you have been hoping that she would be joining you and when you had your last fight she expressed that she wouldn't go. Ask her if she meant that and does she still consider going. Give her a way out to say YES, don't pressure her for what she said in anger.

Symphony

The others are right about MC. And remember, she has a habit of manipulating you with anger so as not to face the marriage issues which include but not limited to:

1. Her disrespect of you
2. Her lack of love for you
3. Her sexual neglect of you
4. Her backing out of the POJA, then blaming you
5. Fighting with you nearly constantly
6. Seeing and talking with other men
7. "Waving" other men in front of your face.
8. Not caring if you are sick, tired, etc, no empathy toward you.
9. Feeling entitled to all of the above bad behaviors.

Remember, she will use her very best anger and manipulative techniques in order to avoid the issues and continue to "have her way" in the marriage even if "her way" is not making "her" happy!

But it will not be much of a marriage if she continues to disrespect you like she does now. In words and actions. And her attitudes toward you which are harder to pinpoint and measure.

I am going to find something and copy it here about the "authoritarian personality" that seems to fit her.

I suspect she had a few emotional affairs or something she feels guilty about and is turning it on to you perhaps saying in her mind, "he is not worth respecting anyway..." about you. This could be one of the many reasons she treats you bad like this.

YOU should not be the one to "make up" with HER all the time. If she does not change, feel remorse, or respect you then you are just laying yourself out like a mat for her to continue to walk on by "pretending you are happy" and "smoothing everything over".

YES TO THE MC! AND SOON!

<small>[ June 08, 2004, 10:32 AM: Message edited by: baba2 ]</small>

Page 1
THE AUTHORITARIAN PERSONALITY

•ETIOLOGY– EXTREMELY LOW SELF-ESTEEM THAT IS REPRESSED– BULLIES THAT ARE THE ULTIMATE COWARDS

•SYMPTOMOLOGY– PATHOLOGICAL ATTEMPTS TO BUILD THE SELF BY ATTACKING OTHERS– IDENTIFICATION WITH POWERFUL OTHERS– EXTREME ANGER AND CONSTANT EMOTIONAL PAIN– DISPLACEMENT AND SELF-DESTRUCTIVE CYCLES– ARROGANCE AND GRANDIOSITY: MUST BE THE CENTER OF ATTENTION•CONSEQUENCES– CONFLICT HOSTILITY AND FEAR– SUBMISSIVE SUBORDINATES WHO ARE REWARDED FOR LOYALTY AND NOTPERFORMANCE– DYSFUNCTIONAL WORK GROUPS AND UNITS– DESPAIR AND HOPELESSNESSRATIONAL MOTIVATION THEORY

•NEED THEORIES– BASIC MECHANISM IS A HOMEOSTATIC MODEL DESIRED INTERNAL STATE DISEQUIBRILLIUM DISSATISFACTION BEHAVIOR SATISFACTION
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Page 2
NEED THEORIES:MASLOW’S NEED HIERARCHY

•FIVE CLASSES OF NEEDS ARRANGED IN A HIERARCHY– SELF-ACTUALIZATION– ESTEEM– SOCIAL– SAFETY– PHYSIOLOGICAL

•MECHANISM– DEPRIVATION/DOMINATION

•PROBLEMS– SOME NEEDS POORLY DEFINED– EVIDENCE DOES NOT SUPPORT DEPRIVATION/DOMINATION– DOES NOT EXPLAIN ANTI-SOCIAL BEHAVIOR WELLMcCLELLAND’S NEED THEORY•THREE LEARNED NEEDS: ACHIEVEMENT, POWER ANDAFFILIATION– NEED FOR ACHIEVEMENT


• ASSOCIATED WITH WARM SUPPORTIVE PARENTS AND AN ENVIRONMENTWHERE FAILURE IS NOT PUNISHED

• ALSO LINKED TO CULTURES THAT VALUE ACHIEVEMENT– PEOPLE WITH A HIGH NEED FOR ACHIEVEMENT

• ARE SELF-DIRECTED AND SELF-CORRECTIVE• SEEK CHALLENGE

• TAKE MODERATE RISKS

• ARE INNOVATIVE

• SEEK MEANINGFUL FEEDBACK

• INTERNALIZE SUCCESS

• EXTERNALIZE FAILURE

http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/traits.html

This is interesting also....

Thanks guys for all your support and thoughtful suggestions. I was not around yesterday because I had a particularly bad day at work. My W was extremely supportive with me and knew I was in a bad mood from work. Plus somehow, my best friend that I grew up with called me out of the blue (we had not spoken in 8 months). I needed that phone call.

Anyway, I mentioned to my W that I had made an appointment for the C this comming Tuesday and was wondering if she would go with me to the C. She said, " I guess." Now, I would not call this an enthusiastic response, but I will take it. It is not forcing her or pressuring her and she has committed to go. This helped make me happy with such a bad day I was having.

So now that my W has agreed to go to C early next week, I am going to spend the time between now and then trying not to discuss our R and give her a little breathing room and only have positive conversations. We'll see how it goes.

Thanks, - EL

That's a good plan EL.

Good luck at your MC session.

Hey gang,

Just wanted to provide an update and get feed back. This morning my W came to her first MC session with me. I have been going to this C for 6 appointments to work on me and our M. I had asked if my W would go and she said yes and then she went today.

During the session she was somewhat closed off, but did participate because the C had us speak to eachother and bring up a past argument to see how we interact. I could tell my W was not comfortable being at the C and at the end of the session, the C asked if she would come back next week and my W said, "I guess." She then asked "Do I have to come all the time?" She said that I had originally told her I was going to go to C to fix my issues and that she would need to participate later on. This was because I knew she would not go to MC if I asked her to at that point. I was honest that I needed to go to C and that she would eventually need to participate.

Anyway, I do not know if this first appointment did more damage than good. My W accused me of decieving her when we left because she felt I should be going for myself and that bringing her into full blown MC was a trick.

This is definitely not the case and I was honest and upfront the entire time. I even asked her if she would go and she agreed to go. I cannot help but feel that all I have achieved was to make her significantly more angry with me and push her further away. I did say in the beginning of the session that now that my W has come to a session, I feel anxiety because I know in myself that our M will no longer remain stagnant from this point forward. One of two things will end up happening: we will both work towards improving our M and things will be great or we will fall apart. I am scared for the outcome. I do love her so much and would be honored living the rest of our lives together in happiness.

I do not know if I should try to talk with her about the C or just let things lie for a day or two. I know she has difficulty talking about things all the time. I am fearful of pushing too hard at this time. Maybe I should just consider the fact that she went and agreed to show up next week a small forward (AND POSITIVE) step.

While I was writing this, my W just called me and she had something to drop off for me at work and I asked if she would like to go to lunch. She agreed and will be showing up shortly. Wish me luck.

Thanks, EL

Good Luck E L!! I'm probably too late huh?

It's good that she went and if she is a little uncomfy don't stress about it. Don't pressure her so that she will have a way out of this. Let her know that you appreciate very much that she went and keep it positive. Let her know what you are hoping MC will do for the M. You can ask her what she thought and try to acknowledge her feelings. Try to keep it positive. Doesn't matter if she is loving it, the point is she is there.

Hang in there,
Symphony

Just in time. Thanks.

Back from lunch,

We did not really discuss anything about the session. We just had a nice lunch. Maybe there is hope for us yet.


We'll see - EL

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Hi EL,

I can understand your anxiety after your W's comments. It isn't going to be much of a MC session if she's closed off and is only there because your there to work on you.

Stay positive and let's hope the C is able to draw her into the mix.

Hey Gang!

I have not written for a while. Thought I would provide an update and things. Basically my W and I have been to two more C appointments. I do not know what I am expecting from these initial joint visits because they seem as though we just sit and bring up old arguments and the C helps us try and express what we mean (I know the things MB warns us about). I have taken the C to task on this because I have forced the question to the C about her being "pro" marriage. The C says she is and does seem to have some good points. My W is not buying into the MB thing and feels that in short it is saying that if there are any problems, someone will cheat. She says she does not believe this. I have mentioned to her my dissapointment in her not trying to take the MB information to heart since I have found it to be extremely important.

Anyway, we have gone on for these last three weeks and have not had any real knock down drag em outs. I guess this is progress, although I cannot help to think it is because I have not pushed my unfulfilled ENs on her. I am trying to work through my trust issues with her. We have not discussed the SF jointly with the C yet (although I have independently with the C). I did not want my W to feel ambushed and start up the bandwagon that this is all about SF to me. I truly do care about her needs and desire to fill all of them. I also will hold her to task to fill my needs.

I think we will start off slowly with the C. Currently we are working on things to make me more comfortable with trusting her. This is fine, although the C gives us things to work on and we do not really seem to be working on a lot of them (which from reading a lot of posts seems normal at first).

The C starts off our sessions with, "how have you guys been? and what would you like to work on today?" I think I will pick affection. I know her procedure for working on this already and think that it will be good. We can maintain working on trust issues, and affection and then ease into working on the SF. I think this will be fair. I just can't stand waiting to be intimate with my W.

Let me know what you guys think.

Thanks,

EL

Hey EL. Good to hear from you.

Thanks for the update. We kinda lost track of you for a while. Symphony mentioned you yesterday and got me wondering where'd ya go?

As cliche as it sounds your M and your life are a journey. Changes come in small pieces and many times it's two steps forward and a step or two back. What I'm trying to say is continue to be patient. Don't try to push but certainly keep things active.

I think you've got a good plan. As hard and frustrating as it is sometimes SF really has to take a back seat until the roadblocks to SF are removed. This may take some time. Once your W feels she is trusted she may begin to feel the desire to be intimate with you. Keep asking for some affection without it leading to SF. For me I love the physical touch of my W and although it makes me desire her more it also makes me appreciate her more and makes me want to work extra hard to fulfill her wants/needs.

Has your W implied that all of your intentions in improving your M are only there because in the end you desire SF? If so I'd like to share something.

For me, of course I desire SF and am working on our M because I want to be with her. Why wouldn't I? It's a natural and almost necessary function of a R (MHO). But the SF is just the icing on the cake. I'm working to put all the loose pieces of our R together then the SF will be the last piece that is put into place. That's why I'm proving to my W it isn't just about the sex. It's about all of the pieces of our R clicking at the same time. I chose SF as the last EN to ask for because it's the one my W probably feels is most important to me but it is least important to her. I don't know if you've gotten a chance to read it but I posted a letter I gave to my W describing why SF is so important to me. I'm hoping it gave her a different, more truthful, outlook on how I feel about the subject. If your interested I can go back and find the link.

Anyway, in a long about way, I wanted to just tell you to maintain your course and I'm hopeful you'll see results. Don't be afraid to keep the topics of improving your M active.

Thanks My Alias,

After reading through your post I feel there are a lot of similarities between our relationships. You are obviously further along than I am and we do have a few different issues, but relating to the SF issue we are pretty close.

What conrcerns me is some of the things I have been reading, where a number of people have been stating that for the SF issues we are seeing, the MB principles fall a little short. Now, I can kind of understand this because my W does not buy into the MB principles (atleast not yet). She also feels that the C is something pointless that will not help (but she is going). My W also understands that my most important need is SF but it is her least important (at the moment). So I have backed off the SF and have been trying to work on everything else. Somehow I think this gives her a false sense that all is ok because I am not mentioning it. This scares me that she may feel this way and it makes me feel defeated.

I do not know how to get my W to understand that she is actually hurting both of us by not having any desire (whether I say anything or not). I also do not know how to get her to understand that her lack of any need for SF is not normal. When we had discussed/argued about it in the past, she would always say that I am the one misunderstanding how often couples are intimate. I am sorry, but we have not been intimate this year! I think this is wrong and I will not accept this.

So I am praying that my plan is not selling out to myself, but, I am thinking that I will continue with the C for a while and work on not having arguments with my W, show her that I trust her, have the C help us work into affection and then (as you have said) bring SF into the mix last. Unfortunately, this really sucks because if you or I were looking at the entire situation and realized that our W's most important EN was not being met, we would desire to fulfill this EN first. I think it is really unfair sometimes how we must give give give.. This is why I am hoping that I am not really selling out here. I guess the only thing is to promise myself that after a certain amount of time, I must call a spade a spade and do what I need to for myself, if things do not get better. I feel extremely selfish for feeling this way. I know you would say that my W is also selfish for the lack of SF.

Thanks,

EL

E L,

Thought I would give you the link to MyAlias's thread
Sf stuff from MyAlias

It's a good read and something in there might help you.

Glad you two are still going to MC. Hopefully soem progress will be made. Sadly this stuff takes time. It's great that you are comfortable confronting your C about issues regarding her style. That's important.

Here I was reading and feeling sorry for you guys for not having SF in so long and then I realized I am in the same freaking boat. It's been a good 8 months since last time and I would venture to guess a year before that. I don't actually remember. It really bites!!!! Don't know if this fits your sich but I would give anything to know that my H wanted to have SF with me even though I am not ready to actually do it. I do know that would keep me thinking about it and maybe those thoughts would lead to something...
Just a thought. I do think it's very important that you guys let your wives know that it is important to you and that you miss it. Not mentioning it kinda lets them off the hook. There are many ways to suggest sex without saying it or putting on pressure. Alot comes in a touch and a simple kiss on the back of the neck or maybe a suggestive card or something. I am sure there are things you used to do that seemed to turn the wife on THINK and then try them. Subtle goes a long way.

Just a few thoughts from a fellow undersexed human being.

Symphony

Well guys,

I just came back from our MC appointment and it was a bit disturbing. We ended up undigging that my W actually does not trust me to not hurt her emotionally. My W broke down in anger and finally said this. Now this is great that she expressed this, but she was so upset in this session and already hates going to these sessions (which she also said today) that I am afraid she is going to hold this session against me because she is upset from it. I also think that going to MC is an LB for my W in a strange way.

I have been trying extremely hard over the last two and a half months to exhibit trust to my W. I am human and I guess there are small things I still have done that let her think that I totally do not trust her. However, I am unaware at the time that I am doing these small things. She will not let go of the past and move forward in the present. She says it is too difficult for her.

She also holds a lot of resentment towards me because of her having had to give up her (as she sees it, everything): family, friends, two jobs move out of state. This is a bit unfair because I also had to give up a lot: move out of state, change jobs, do not see old friends, do not see family as much. She feels that I get to do what I like - Go to work. She actually said this. Like I have a choice to go to work. I wish I did not truly have to go to work. But somehow my work is something she sees as pleasurable for me.

The MC stressed that we need to resolve our trust issues before we can move further towards a loving relationship. She said people cannot love, or be comfortable around what they do not trust. I agree with this. She also said both of us are going to have to take a huge leap of faith and put the past behind us to move forward. Again, I am very willing to do this and try. My W is having difficulty with this.

I expressed that one of my issues is how everything in her life seems to be a priority except for me - Son, 3 cats, house, landscaping, home owners association (she is on the board), hanging out with the neighborhood women. When it comes to us, she is tired, or has something going on. She said this is not true because we do housework, landscaping and laundry together. All this sounds like a lot of fun and quality time to me!!! NOT!!!

We also discussed how she can cuddle with our son, and the three cats at any time, but never with me. She says this is because when she has in the past, it was never enough for me. We'll if she is saying that cuddling with not replace SF for me she is right. I told her in the MC today that I love her. The MC said love is not enough.

I then said to W that All of the things she listed as "us doing things together" is not the type of M I want or will be fulfilled with. I said it is a part of the M I desire. I wish for a marriage where my partner and I desire each other, we wish no ill will towards each other, we protect each other, each misses the other when they are not around, each looks forward to when each other is together again, each needs to hear the others voice once and a while, each deeply supports the other when they are down, each is each other's biggest fan, friend and lover, each is happy when we are together. I said that this is not an unrealistic goal for a M and the MC agreed, but said that it takes a lot of work to get there and we had to begin with each taking a large leap of faith with trust. This ended our session.

I walked out with my W who was in a very somber mood. She mentioned that she did not feel like doing what she had planned on doing for today, now. I told her I love her and do not wish to ever hurt her. She said OK and I went to work.

Now I know she is associating MC with us arguing, because these initial sessions are difficult. It is the nature of MC or no one would need MC. Unfortunately, I do not know if she can get past her feeling like everything is OK and then we get to the MC and they are horrible. I do not know if things are helping or hurting our M at the moment and this scares me.

Thanks for reading,

EL

Hey EL,

Hang in there big fella.

Everyone knows you're not trying to hurt your W. If she is giving you that impression or you're reading that into it than you should eliminate those thoughts. I'll bet in the back of her mind she probably knows she can trust you she's just not ready to do it yet.

Problems cannot be resolved without having conflict, without having to relive old wounds. You must work THROUGH the problem to get passed it. You can't slip around it.

You two have a troubled M. MC is a commitment from both of you to work out your troubles and to give your M a fighting chance. Your W is there because she too wants to have a happy M. Eventually I believe your W will feel more comfortable in this environment because she has, just as you do, a referee, a coach, a confidant to work with.

I'm questioning the suggestion of a 'big leap of faith'. Isn't there someway you can provide your W with a level of trust that doesn't require her to take a big leap. That statement right there sounds pretty intimidating and I'd bet your W didn't like hearing it.

Don't get down. Keep up the good work.

Hello My Alias,

I think the "leap of faith" for my W would be to stop doing things because of how she thinks I would react, based upon the past. For example, she may not tell me something because she is worried how I would react based upon my past actions of mis-trust. However, now that I understand a little better about where the roots of my mis-trusting behavior are stemming from, I am prepared to act differently than I have in the past. This does not mean that I will not make a mistake, everyone does, but hopefully, I can learn a better reaction/behavior for these things. But, I will not be able to if I am not given the chance.

This seems like a small thing for my W to do, but because she feels that she has had to learn to be guarded over the past four years, it is more difficult.

My "leap of faith" is trusting her in situations that would have normally sent me into complete paranoia in the past. I must learn to give her the benefit of the doubt, as she is being asked to give me the benefit of the doubt.

Unfortunately, I slip on some very simple, but small things. For example, last night, my W reminded me that she has a meeting tonight at 6:30PM. She asked if I would be home by then to watch our S. I have a job that I cannot guarentee when I actually will be home. Sometimes, I can be home early and sometimes I end up being very late. The fact that she asked me when I would be home tomorrow was kind of irritating because she is well aware that I could not give her a definite answer. Therefore, I said, "I am not sure when I can get home, but I would try to get home early to watch our S. Later last night some neighbors were over at our house and my W asks them if they could watch our S. I was kind of taken back by this because I told her that I thought I could watch our S so I immediately said, I will probably be home early and can watch our S. Later on my W brought this whole issue up as I was being difficult. I did not think at the time I was, but I do not know.

Another issue was a couple of weeks ago when we were at a wedding. My W was in the wedding she was nervous about how the wedding would go because she said I would always be jealous in the past when an old friend would come up and give her a hug or something. I admit I was like this in the past and was trying extremely hard to make this wedding a great experience for her and show her that I have changed. The entire night I would bite my tongue on issues that I normally would have reacted to, but would have been wrong about. I thought I did very well. Just a couple of days ago, my W mentions to me that it bothered her that during the wedding party dance, the guy she was dancing with asked her if her husband was OK. Apparently, they both felt I was glaring at them across the dance floor, when in reality I am watching my W dance and thinking how bueatiful she is. I was not happy that she did not bring this to my attention on the spot. She said she did not because she felt it would further escalate things into being a bad evening for us and ruin the wedding night for us. These are the difficult situations for me. Here I am "changing" and working extremely hard at it and somehow still being accused of being jealous, controlling etc.. Then to boot, my W relies on the past to not bring up the issue immediately so we could put it to bed. Instead she allows this to fester in her mind for two weeks following the misunderstanding.

This is why I agree that you have to work through things in the past, but you cannot be anchored by them forever. You cannot change for the better with such a heavy anchor strapped around your neck.

I hope this gives further insight into what I am talking about. I am getting frustrated over what I inturpret as continually being punished for prior acts of jealousy and controlling behavior without being rewarded for my better, new behavior.

Does this make sense? Am I completely off base here? I wish some women that have been in my W's shoes would provide some insight here.

Thanks,

EL