</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don’t tend to label actions as objectively “right” or “wrong”. Instead, I prefer “effective” or “ineffective” or possibly “helpful/not helpful”.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've stated this many times before ....

"There is no RIGHT or WRONG only what WORKS and what doesn't WORK."

I concur with Myschae. There is nothing wrong with the way EL is feeling. He has every right to be upset with the way things are progressing in his M. But this isn't about him being right and her being wrong. This is about finding what WORKS to help improve their situation.

EL, please don't take the "I give up mentality". I can only assume that that will give your W the idea that she's right to continue to behave like she has.

You've got the right desire to want to fix this M and I think it is that desire to want to fix it that is going to get your M out of the rut it is in.

You are by no means a STUPID man. That is obvious. What you do have going on is your Taker is sick of GIVING and is in overtime trying to get a little slice of some hope from your W. That makes you emotional and sometimes causes you to fly by the seat of your pants and do what comes natural. Which is usually a non-working response for you.

Instead of looking at it in the form of 'I give up' I encourage you to continue to look at it like you've been doing for several months now.... with a soft heart, a sense of accountability and responsibility and a willingness to consider every possible solution to your issues. That approach is going to help you keep your Taker in tow and use him like he should be used ... setting boundaries and working considerately towards a positive resolution.

You are just like the rest of us.... A work in progress. Please keep up the good work.

Hello everyone,

I am still not feeling very happy. I got home last night at 10:30 and found my W and S in our bed. My W acted as though nothing was wrong (she always does this). I was just too tired to care either way. I noticed that the card my W had gotten me for our anniversary was no longer in the store bag and was in the envelope sitting in the same spot it had been for a day. I opened the card while my W was still upstairs and it said, "Thank you for everything that you do. I Love You. Love Always, W." I went back upstairs and did not mention that I had seen the card. She mentioned nothing about the card. I just went to bed. Back in this morning by 7:00 AM. I am not sure how I feel anymore.

The only thing I would say regarding the last few posts is that a guy saying, I am not expecting sex in the beginning of the event is a pretty big downer for the guy. I can appraciate MyAlias saying that he has done this quite a bit. I have done this in the past and my W has thanked me, but it did not make things better and tended to make me feel as though she was taking advantage of me. You see, for guys, most things revolve around sex. This is sad, but true and guys are not evile for this. They cannot help this, it is caused by testosterone. So everyone hear needs to understand that by asking a guy to say this is asking him to do something that is very unnatural. This is inbred in a man.

Now I love my W and would do this if I felt in the long run it would improve things, but when I have done this in the past, I have found that she ends up taking this as a validation that all is ok and I am fine with not having sex. WAY WRONG!!!!! This is why I have difficulty with this statement. I feel as though I AM giving up by saying this, and in a way I have learned this already from her past reactions to this statement. Sure it makes her feel comfortable and satisfied, but it makes me miserable and unfulfilled. This is why I just do not know anymore. I am starting to feel cold on this M and I am actually starting to wonder if I am loosing my attraction for her and a desire to have sex with her. I often wondered what it would be like for her to come around and try to initiate sex with me only to have me turn her down. I do not know if this would help her understand my position further or would make her feel satisfied to never offer again. One things for sure, it has been since October last year. If I mention this she will get irritated and say, "you keep track?" But frankly it is quite easy to keep track when you only need to count with one hand.

Take care,

EL

It is time to ask her if she wants a celebate marriage. Look up celebate marriages on Google. Also look up AVEN, the Asexual site. See if your wife fits into any of that criteria.

I think you need to get a straight answer out of her TO QUESTIONS like "Do you want a celebate marriage, honey?"

Or, "How do you feel about never having sex again..."

YOU NEED TO KNOW THE TRUTH. I FEEL SHE WANTS CELEBACY IN MARRIAGE AND YOU NEED TO KNOW THIS. AND YOU NEED TO KNOW IT NOW SO YOU CAN PLAN.

You can spend 10K on counseling, you can twist yourself into a pretzel for her, you can dance for years on the head of a pin for her.......

But the bottom line is: IF SHE SECRETLY OR OVERTLY WANTS A CELEBATE MARRIAGE, THEN YOU ARE S-O-L!

She wants to stay with you for the kid, for your support, for shelter and food and maybe so she won't have to work but what is the other reason? Does she love you or is she just using you for a meal ticket?

<small>[ July 29, 2004, 10:27 AM: Message edited by: baba2 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The only thing I would say regarding the last few posts is that a guy saying, I am not expecting sex in the beginning of the event is a pretty big downer for the guy. I can appraciate MyAlias saying that he has done this quite a bit. I have done this in the past and my W has thanked me, but it did not make things better and tended to make me feel as though she was taking advantage of me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">EL, I would change the wording in your statement ... I would replace the word a guy with ME.

Not all men need sex as the end-all of an event. Not all men are high-drive SF men whose #1 EN is SF.

And your last sentence there is an assumption on your part. And probably indicates an area where you and your W need more open and radically honest communication. You can't assume... you need to ask.

I know your going to say she's going to slam you when you ask to have your SF need fulfilled but you can't stop communicating to her your needs. That process gives her the right to chose to believe there isn't a problem.

What would be her reaction if, before an event where she may assume your expecting SF, you said this:

Wifey, I know that you are uncomfortable with having SF with me at this point in our R. I want to state that SF is an important need I have and is something I want us to have. I know right now you are uncomfortable so I want to put you at ease and let you know I have no expectation of making love tonight. I want us to continue to work on fulfilling some of our other needs and then we can see where we are at on the topic of SF at that point.


The only reason I'm suggesting this type of statement is you said you were hoping to address many of the EN issues you and your W has. I get the impression that these other needs aren't nearly as important as SF to you. But in your W's eyes these other needs or issues need to be addressed before she's going to feel like SF. So this approach seems the only logical approach.

You've tried some of these things in the past except you've left open some holes where your W may have perceived things in an incorrect manner. If you learn to be extremely open and honest and communicate more with her about everything than maybe together you two can eliminate all these misperceptions and start working on moving forward.

<small>[ July 29, 2004, 11:08 AM: Message edited by: MyAlias ]</small>

Extremely Lost

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The only thing I would say regarding the last few posts is that a guy saying, I am not expecting sex in the beginning of the event is a pretty big downer for the guy. I can appraciate MyAlias saying that he has done this quite a bit. I have done this in the past and my W has thanked me, but it did not make things better and tended to make me feel as though she was taking advantage of me. You see, for guys, most things revolve around sex. This is sad, but true and guys are not evile for this. They cannot help this, it is caused by testosterone. So everyone hear needs to understand that by asking a guy to say this is asking him to do something that is very unnatural. This is inbred in a man. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now I’m confused. I thought you mentioned that your intentions were to enjoy a romantic evening that did not lead to sexual relations. Was I wrong? If that was your intent, I’m unsure how stating that at the beginning of an evening would be a downer. If that wasn’t your intent (ie. You hoped the evening would evolve into a sexual encounter.) then I can see how that would be the case.

Mys

Tell your wife this:

Honey I know you want a celebate marriage and I finally agree with you. I will give up all my sexual desires and submit to this idea. No more will I ask anything sexual from you and we wont ever have sex again. Lets agree to a celebate marriage, OK, since I know this is what you really want and have been trying to get, and you will be much happier.

I will be miserable, but I do not matter much. It is YOU who matters my dearie. YOU are my queen. You I worship. And if Celebacy is what you desire, celebacy is what you will get. I am getting my monks robe on right now. FOR YOU!

I WILL DO THIS FOR YOU!

Extremely Lost

I’ve been thinking about your last couple of posts. Your frustration is palpable.

What kind of help would you like?

Sitting here, I can think of several responsible options you have in your situation (and several irresponsible ones that I won’t condone or post).

1.) You can decide you’ve had enough and this is more than you can take so you choose to begin the process of ending your marriage through divorce.

Pros: It’s emotionally safe because you don’t risk any more rejection. It’s on an accelerated timeline in the sense that resolution will happen at the end of the divorce process. Once you are divorced, you have the opportunity to build a new life with or without someone else that does not contain the history of this relationship (assuming you don’t have compelling reasons not to remarry like religious reasons).

Cons: Your marriage ends in divorce and you share custody of your child with your wife. Divorce is expensive, emotionally draining, and can be time consuming (depending on how quickly you agree). There is no opportunity to salvage your current relationship.

2.) You can decide you’ve had enough and this is more than you can bear. You tell your wife that unless she is willing to address your concerns and work on the marriage that you are going to begin divorce proceedings.

Pros: There is a chance that your wife will be motivated to work on saving the marriage. There is an accelerated timeline in the sense that either your wife agrees to work on the marriage or you have resolution at the end of the divorce proceedings.

Cons: You risk rejection if your wife decides not to work on the marriage. There is a very high risk that you will be divorced in the immediate future with all the associated consequences. Your wife might say she’ll work on building the marriage but might be too resentful to fully invest or you and your wife might not be able to successfully rebuild your relationship even after trying.

3.) You can keep doing exactly what you’ve been doing with no change.

Pros: It’s familiar. There is a slight chance that things might improve over time. There is a lower risk of divorce in your immediate future.

Cons: Your frustration level is likely to continue to build. It might take a long time. It might not have any appreciable positive effect. You and your wife may not be able to recover your marriage and eventually divorce.

4.) You can choose a different strategy to work on your marriage. (Not necessarily one I suggest, just something different.)

Pros: There is a chance that your wife will become motivated to work on saving the marriage. There is a lower risk of divorce in your immediate future.

Cons: It requires more change on your part which is likely to translate into more perceived effort on your part. There is a chance that there will be no appreciable positive effect. Depending on the new strategy, there is the opportunity for things to get worse. It might take a long time. You and your wife might not be able to recover your marriage and eventually divorce.

The reason that I listed these options is because I’m unclear as to which one you want to work towards. I’m not sure YOU’RE clear which one you want to work towards. What are your thoughts on this? Did I miss any?

EL, I’m not glossing over your recent anniversary issue. I AM trying to move this discussion forward and focus it back towards a solution oriented process. If that is not where you want your thread to proceed then I can respect that.

Mys

Hello baba2, MyAlias, Myschae and others,

I will try to answer your questions:

baba2 -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But the bottom line is: IF SHE SECRETLY OR OVERTLY WANTS A CELEBATE MARRIAGE, THEN YOU ARE S-O-L! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You have a point here. However, I do not think my W would agree that she wants a celibate M. She has said in the past that she wished she new how to make it all better and be into SF again. Its just that after a lengthy period of time, when I have found what I think are solutions (or atleast a chance for improvement) she now seems no longer interested in seeking improvement. I need for her to want to get back to where we were.

MyAlias -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The only reason I'm suggesting this type of statement is you said you were hoping to address many of the EN issues you and your W has. I get the impression that these other needs aren't nearly as important as SF to you. But in your W's eyes these other needs or issues need to be addressed before she's going to feel like SF. So this approach seems the only logical approach. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with you. This approach does seem logical. The way you worded it was very nice and satisfies both her and my criteria. - Thanks.

Myschae -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Now I’m confused. I thought you mentioned that your intentions were to enjoy a romantic evening that did not lead to sexual relations. Was I wrong? If that was your intent, I’m unsure how stating that at the beginning of an evening would be a downer. If that wasn’t your intent (ie. You hoped the evening would evolve into a sexual encounter.) then I can see how that would be the case.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">First off let me explain that I am always in the mood to have an evening end with SF. Being a realist, I did know that this evening was probably going to end up like all the others over the last year (without SF). Therefore, I did not let myself consider that SF would happen. However, I am a dreamer and a romantic at heart and I wanted to leave the possibility open, but I was not expecting anything. I hope this is clearer. I always leave the possibility open that one night I get home from work and my W actually initiates SF. This would blow my mind away and make me happy for a while.

Regarding your four options, I have always though I was going for number 4. Just recently (last two weeks) I ahve been very confused, frustrated and at my wits end and potentially considering a move to 2 or 1. The MB principles recomend #2 if #4 does not pan out. If 4 could pan out, it would be my obvious choice. I have determined that #3 is not a choice at all (at least not for me).


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> EL, I’m not glossing over your recent anniversary issue. I AM trying to move this discussion forward and focus it back towards a solution oriented process. If that is not where you want your thread to proceed then I can respect that.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course I wish for this thread to lead to a solution oriented process. I am not posting on this website to just vent. I am looking for solutions under every rock, or at least until that rock hits me on the head. I am currently very dissappointed with my W, which I am entitled to be. I am trying to figure out if she still loves me (although she tells me she does, but actions send the opposite message). I am trying to figure out if baba is more right and I am being played for the fool. I must also consider the possibility that our M may end because I refuse to allow her to hurt me any further.

All I ever wanted was to spend the rest of my life with this woman while sharing many wonderful experiences together including an active sex life, children, growing old together all while meeting eachothers needs for the sake of the other person's happiness. I am not someone who is truly out to manipulate her into doing what I want (although I will admit that you guys seem to point out that I do tend to do this without realizing it). She is my World, along with my S. I love this woman, and this is why I cannot allow her to continue to tear me apart.

I know you are probably more confused now. Well I do not blame you. Do not forget that I have been married before and have went through a divorce. This was due to my Ex having cheated on me (which has contributed to my current mistrust issues that I have been working on). So I know the process of divorce, and it is not something to be proud of. However, knowing you have the ability to survive it and can lead a new life is something to be proud of.

Thanks,

EL

Start measuring, cause you're gonna need this robe!:


http://www.garbtheworld.com/items/g0025.shtml

baba,

Can I get different colors? Do you wear anything under the robe? - EL

Extremely Lost

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> First off let me explain that I am always in the mood to have an evening end with SF. Being a realist, I did know that this evening was probably going to end up like all the others over the last year (without SF). Therefore, I did not let myself consider that SF would happen. However, I am a dreamer and a romantic at heart and I wanted to leave the possibility open, but I was not expecting anything. I hope this is clearer. I always leave the possibility open that one night I get home from work and my W actually initiates SF. This would blow my mind away and make me happy for a while. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah, I see. I did misunderstand you. My impression was that you specifically wanted to AVOID SF in order to prove that you weren’t only interested in that. Please accept my apologies and thank you for clarifying.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Regarding your four options, I have always though I was going for number 4. Just recently (last two weeks) I ahve been very confused, frustrated and at my wits end and potentially considering a move to 2 or 1. The MB principles recomend #2 if #4 does not pan out. If 4 could pan out, it would be my obvious choice. I have determined that #3 is not a choice at all (at least not for me). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I realize that you were hoping for number 4 up until recently. I just wasn’t sure if you were still leaning in that direction in light of your very obvious frustration at this situation. Rather than proceeding under an incorrect assumption, I figured I’d ask. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Of course I wish for this thread to lead to a solution oriented process. I am not posting on this website to just vent. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah, well, let me clarify my clarification. I did not mean to imply that you were only interested in venting. I was just acknowledging that my post was completely off the current thread of the conversation. My husband tells me it’s irritating when I tangentially change a conversation midstream. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I wasn’t sure if you were finished discussing that yet. If you’re not, by the way, there is nothing wrong with that, either. I am but I can peek back in later on. That’s one of the advantages of this board.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I know you are probably more confused now. Well I do not blame you. Do not forget that I have been married before and have went through a divorce. This was due to my Ex having cheated on me (which has contributed to my current mistrust issues that I have been working on). So I know the process of divorce, and it is not something to be proud of. However, knowing you have the ability to survive it and can lead a new life is something to be proud of. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Heh. I had no idea you were previously married. If it was something you’ve mentioned; I did forget it. I did know that you had some past issues but hadn’t really associated that with marriage/divorce rather than a dating situation.

I don’t think I’m any more confused. I’m still unsure whether or not you’ve decided you’re proceeding with 4 or whether you’re still considering your options. Have you decided? (Don’t feel rushed to decide in any way. One of the limitations of this forum is that it’s easy to assume one thing and just wander off on a tangent. Some of us do this more than others *looks sheepish*. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> If you’re still unsure, that’s perfectly fine.. take all the time you need to think this through. It’s a rather large decision.)

Mys

LOL,LOL! Yes. And carry a big jug of that MONKS wine too....or Frangelica liquor....or whatever drink MONKS make....

Myschae,


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Ah, I see. I did misunderstand you. My impression was that you specifically wanted to AVOID SF in order to prove that you weren’t only interested in that. Please accept my apologies and thank you for clarifying.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is ok. You were not completely off the plot. I did wish to show my W that I am not all about sex, while at the same time not letting her misinturpret this as I no longer desire sex. All of your points you have made are completely fair and worth while pursuing. I have just been pretty down on this more so over the last couple of days.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I realize that you were hoping for number 4 up until recently. I just wasn’t sure if you were still leaning in that direction in light of your very obvious frustration at this situation. Rather than proceeding under an incorrect assumption, I figured I’d ask. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If I had a better idea that #4 would work, I would be happier with the situation. I guess in a way I was hoping to get an idea from you guys through what I have been explaining my W's actions to be as of late, as to if you guys saw #4 as hopeless for me. YES, I KNOW BABA FEELS THIS WAY! I am just not sure and would hate to give up everything we have or could have on an uncertainty.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Ah, well, let me clarify my clarification. I did not mean to imply that you were only interested in venting. I was just acknowledging that my post was completely off the current thread of the conversation. My husband tells me it’s irritating when I tangentially change a conversation midstream. I wasn’t sure if you were finished discussing that yet. If you’re not, by the way, there is nothing wrong with that, either. I am but I can peek back in later on. That’s one of the advantages of this board.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hope you are not done discussing things as this can be an evolving process and I value your opinions and perspectives, and yes, even the 2x4s.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Heh. I had no idea you were previously married. If it was something you’ve mentioned; I did forget it. I did know that you had some past issues but hadn’t really associated that with marriage/divorce rather than a dating situation. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This thread is my second ever on this board. I am not as savvy as a lot of posters yet or I would add a link here to get you to the first one. To give you a quick summary, in April I realized (finally) that I had some serious mistrust issues. These were based upon things from my past, such as uncovering my mom cheating on my dad when I was 8, a girl friend in college convincing me she was pregnant with my baby (which took 3 years off my life and put me through her painful choice of an abortion and sexless relationship) only to find out the baby never was mine, or my first marriage which ended with my Ex cheating on me when I had to travel out of town for work. These things added up to cause me to start having trust issues with my current W. Our relationship started off with her getting pregnant after the first intimate weekend we spent together. Five months later I was moving her to a different state with me (away from her family because of my work). This dramatically changed both of our lives. She had been working two jobs and now was staying at home pregnant while I worked long hours to provide for us. We went through the difficulties of child birth and building our first home and then getting married only two years ago. Right after our S was born my W was concerned with if sex would feel as good for me now as it had before our S. The sex started tapering off around this time.

We both realised this was a problem and could not figure out what was going on. I associated it with the birth of our S, breat feeding, hormones and just being a mom and the stress this entails. My W also suffered from post pardem depression for 2 - 3 years. We spent a lot of money trying to search for answers to her lack of desire and interest in sex (which she put in a large maount of the efforts and desired a cure). We tried gynocologists, endocronologists, urologists, chiropractors, councelors and a phsychiatrist along with books and websites and three different anti-depressant drugs. From all the frustration of all these specialists not having any answers and telling us that my W was normal with respect to their own disciplines, my W became so frustrated she just gave up trying to figure out the answer and figured there was no answers. We went on like this for about a year until I finally got fed up with laying next to her at night and waiting (giving her space) for her to feel closer to me.

In April of this year, I found the MB site and became hopeful again. I bought four books from this site and started writting here. I was happy with the prospect of potentially finding a solution for our M issues. Of cousre this came at a price and I was open to looking at myself as part of the problem, which before we both thought it was her issue. I now realize that all of this was coincidental with the birth of our S. My mistrust issues caused her to grow apart from me and put up walls. Looking back she tried to tell me this in her own way but it never registered through my thick skull nor could I phathom that this could cause her to loose interest in sex.

I started practicing the MB principles and had asked her to start reading them because I thought she would be relieved that I have seen the light and realized I was a major contributor to our issues and that there could be a solution at hand. Now (all of a sudden ((last few months))) she claims that there is no problem, sex is not important in marriage and is more than happy to push all of the blame on me because of my trust issues. I cannot blame her for her wanting to push blame in my direction as we went four years with both of us feeling it was her issue. The counselors we used in the past really turned my W off of MCs because the first one told her she just had to grin and have sex with me. My W was offended because it is her body and no one will tell her what to do with her own body. She was also offended because this MC never had been pregnant or had a child yet was claiming to be able to relate to my W's issues.

With this background, maybe you would be able to draw a slightly different picture and help me get into her head a little better. I was loosing hope, but now that I have been able to get such interesting perceptions from all of you, maybe I can find a way to give #4 more time. I certainly would not want my W to be judged without my attempting to list all of the information. This is why I had an initial detailed thread before this one. I would not want to get a bunch of advice saying, yes it is time for you to move on and the advisors only know part of the info.

If you have any questions or would like to know further details please ask. I am happy to provide them.

Thanks,

EL

Hey Myschae,

If you are interested in my old post which has more details of my situation, I found it back on page 27.

Best Wishes,

EL

Extremely Lost

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If I had a better idea that #4 would work, I would be happier with the situation. I guess in a way I was hoping to get an idea from you guys through what I have been explaining my W's actions to be as of late, as to if you guys saw #4 as hopeless for me. YES, I KNOW BABA FEELS THIS WAY! I am just not sure and would hate to give up everything we have or could have on an uncertainty. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think it’s too early to tell whether plan 4 is hopeless for you. A lot of it depends on how you change what you’re doing. It also depends very highly on your state of mind. It’s not likely to be a quick fix. If you’re bouncing between working on it and giving up, you’re likely to make very little progress and might possibly loose some ground.

As for your wife’s actions as you’ve described them, they only describe how she’s been reacting to the current situation. It’s next to impossible to predict what someone you know well will do in different situations let alone trying to figure out how someone you’ve never met will react. Assuming you change your behavior significantly, her reactions might very well change. Then again, they might not. There is only one way to find out, unfortunately. It’s an emotional risk.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I hope you are not done discussing things as this can be an evolving process and I value your opinions and perspectives, and yes, even the 2x4s. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nah, I was just finished with the anniversary issue. Which is to say that I had rattled on at length about it and had no more relevant thoughts that wouldn’t be a repeat. Again, that does not require YOU to be finished posting your thoughts about it or anyone else, for that matter. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I am, however, in the middle of moving so I’ll probably become a bit more scarce than usual over the next couple of weeks. So, if you don’t see me around as much, it’s not you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I started practicing the MB principles and had asked her to start reading them because I thought she would be relieved that I have seen the light and realized I was a major contributor to our issues and that there could be a solution at hand. Now (all of a sudden ((last few months))) she claims that there is no problem, sex is not important in marriage and is more than happy to push all of the blame on me because of my trust issues. I cannot blame her for her wanting to push blame in my direction as we went four years with both of us feeling it was her issue. I cannot blame her for her wanting to push blame in my direction as we went four years with both of us feeling it was her issue. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thank you for the synopsis, it is very helpful.

Based on this information, it’s very understandable to me why she’s very reluctant to invest in working on the marriage any further. After 4 years of all that work… it’s no wonder. It sounds like she’s been through the ringer. It sounds like at some point you both had kind of ‘given up’ on working on the issue but I’m not sure exactly where how the timeline goes. It sounds as though working on your marriage in the past has been very painful for her. Do you think she’s angry or scared that you want her to work on the marriage again because she strongly associates that with emotional pain? Consider how you are feeling after 5 months. If you were feeling like this for 4 years, how easy do you think it would be for someone to convince you to do it again?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The counselors we used in the past really turned my W off of MCs because the first one told her she just had to grin and have sex with me. My W was offended because it is her body and no one will tell her what to do with her own body. She was also offended because this MC never had been pregnant or had a child yet was claiming to be able to relate to my W's issues. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">*sighs* It makes you wonder what that first counselor was thinking. What happened with that situation? Did she try to follow that counselor’s recommendation? Or, did she refuse to accept that advice?

Have you spoken to your current counselor about your sex life? What does your current counselor say?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I was loosing hope, but now that I have been able to get such interesting perceptions from all of you, maybe I can find a way to give #4 more time. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You said you like direct so I’ll be direct. I think you have options that you haven’t tried. I don’t know if any of them will work. I think you have two very large hurdles to over come. One, is going to be your history, your wife is understandably going to have a difficult time reinvesting in working on your marriage. The other big hurdle is managing your frustration and impatience. I think if you want to see any change, you’ll have to be willing to commit to a fairly significant length of time (6 months to a year). And, then there’s still no guarantee that it will work. If you’re thinking of giving it a couple more months, I am not sure that will be sufficient. So, it depends on how able you think you are to be THIS frustrated for that long without having any guarantee that it will work out on the other end.

Mys

Hey Myschae,

Well, last night I had a chat with my W. I mentioned how I made a mistake with planning a special dinner and trying to make it a surprise evening knowing that she did not like surprises and likes to have things planned out. She said this was ok and wished I would have atleast told her where we were going once we were in the car on the way. I explained to her how I did not expect the evening to end with sex and how it hurt me when she made the comment about my getting a hotel room, when it had never crossed my mind. She said that she did not mean to upset me. I also apologized for not explaining properly what I meant when I said that I hope we could eventually have a M where it would be acceptable to rent a room for SF. I also mentioned how I missed the simpler stuff, like cuddling, surprise hugs, and making out. I mentioned that I also understood how she has learned not to even go there because she felt I would expect it to lead to SF and then be dissapointed. She agreed and said that she has learned this over a number of years and needs to be given time to unlearn this. She also said that she would always feel that what she would do was never good enough or not enough. Which is fair because I would like all of these "other" things, but I would not accept these things as a complete substitute for SF. I understand how these other things will help make her feel closer to me and hopefully lead to her desire increasing, but I was here before (years ago) and it never really seemed to. Maybe with my new "eyes open" and learned understanding, this could be different. I was also trying to read this new book, "Sex-Starved Marriage." She asked me what I was reading. I was hesitent to respond because I felt she would feel like, OK here we go again, which is how she reacted to my reading MB books. I said to her that this is an interesting book and it explains the differences between what a low desire and high desire person think and feel. It is way more than just about sex. I said, I do not know if you would be interested in reading it or not, but maybe you would. She said maybe, and then went onto to say that there are a lot of things she would like to find time to read such as her landscaping magazines. She said this house is falling apart. I said, "so is our M." She did not comment. Then she said she did not wish to continue this discussion because she did not wish to get int a circular argument. I said we are not going to get into a circular argument anymore, and I let everything drop. I am hoping that by letting this all drop she will see that I am willing to make the effort to not get into a circular argument. This should be a positive thing.

Now to answer your questions:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think it’s too early to tell whether plan 4 is hopeless for you. A lot of it depends on how you change what you’re doing. It also depends very highly on your state of mind. It’s not likely to be a quick fix. If you’re bouncing between working on it and giving up, you’re likely to make very little progress and might possibly loose some ground. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with you. This turn around takes 100% or nothing. I am willing to continue. I have been down mostly because of this anniversary thing and the last two MC visits. With fear of baba sending me a monks robe and jug of glug I am going to try further because I felt last nights conversation was a positive step forward.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> As for your wife’s actions as you’ve described them, they only describe how she’s been reacting to the current situation. It’s next to impossible to predict what someone you know well will do in different situations let alone trying to figure out how someone you’ve never met will react. Assuming you change your behavior significantly, her reactions might very well change. Then again, they might not. There is only one way to find out, unfortunately. It’s an emotional risk.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">These are reffered to as "weasel words" in contract lingo. It may work. It may not. However, I am already completely emotionally vested in this due to my S and the years with my W. Plus I still know in my heart that she is a reasonable individual and would not consiously be unfair to me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Nah, I was just finished with the anniversary issue. Which is to say that I had rattled on at length about it and had no more relevant thoughts that wouldn’t be a repeat. Again, that does not require YOU to be finished posting your thoughts about it or anyone else, for that matter.

I am, however, in the middle of moving so I’ll probably become a bit more scarce than usual over the next couple of weeks. So, if you don’t see me around as much, it’s not you.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah. Moving is a pain. I wish you luck with that. I hope you are able to look us up once in a while. I have started to look forward to your responses. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Based on this information, it’s very understandable to me why she’s very reluctant to invest in working on the marriage any further. After 4 years of all that work… it’s no wonder. It sounds like she’s been through the ringer. It sounds like at some point you both had kind of ‘given up’ on working on the issue but I’m not sure exactly where how the timeline goes. It sounds as though working on your marriage in the past has been very painful for her. Do you think she’s angry or scared that you want her to work on the marriage again because she strongly associates that with emotional pain? Consider how you are feeling after 5 months. If you were feeling like this for 4 years, how easy do you think it would be for someone to convince you to do it again?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We both went through the ringer. You make a good point here. I guess it would be tough to pick up and start again. I know it is not easy on her side either. I wish I could make it easy for her. I do love her and want to spend the rest of our lives together in marital bliss.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> *sighs* It makes you wonder what that first counselor was thinking. What happened with that situation? Did she try to follow that counselor’s recommendation? Or, did she refuse to accept that advice? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She definitely refused to follow her advice. She also wrote her off immediately in her mind.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Have you spoken to your current counselor about your sex life? What does your current counselor say? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Our current MC says that she understands and would never have suggested those things to her. She says we need to learn to communicate and make eachother feel safe, comfortable and trusted before we can move forward on the SF subject.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You said you like direct so I’ll be direct. I think you have options that you haven’t tried. I don’t know if any of them will work. I think you have two very large hurdles to over come. One, is going to be your history, your wife is understandably going to have a difficult time reinvesting in working on your marriage. The other big hurdle is managing your frustration and impatience. I think if you want to see any change, you’ll have to be willing to commit to a fairly significant length of time (6 months to a year). And, then there’s still no guarantee that it will work. If you’re thinking of giving it a couple more months, I am not sure that will be sufficient. So, it depends on how able you think you are to be THIS frustrated for that long without having any guarantee that it will work out on the other end.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This sucks! But it is the truth. I guess I could try another 6 months to a year. But I have to be honest with myself and as baba would say, "not allow myself to be the best doormat in town!" I must be sensible and be able to realize if nothing is going to ever change.

An interesting point you made was about not knowing our time line of when things happened. I thought I would provide you with a short version. Who knows, maybe it will help you, to help me see something different.

1999 April - May: Met my W while I was on a business trip to her state. I was living in a different state at the time. Gave her my number and she never called me.

1999 July: Met my W again in her state while I was on a business trip and we had our first kiss.

One week later I went back to visit her for a weekend. This was when we concieved our S. She was on birth control.

1999 August: We find out about baby.

1999 August - October: My W spent time comming to visit me and we looked for houses as both of us were in an apartment. After going through over 100 houses (first house for both of us) we find the perfect one and make an offer. She had agreed that it was smarter for her to leave her two jobs and move to my state because I made 4 times what she was making. We had agreed she would move around Jan. 1.

1999 December: I have a job change and need to relocate to a different state that is closer to her state, but still in a different state. We have to know get out of our housing contract which we were suppose to close on in this month and both move to a new state.

2000 January: I have started a new job and we have both moved to the new state and now live in an apartment together. We are still fighting to get out of the housing contract. I am working long hours to provide for my new family. My W is trying to maintain a normal home life for us through all of our changes. We both really do not know anyone in the area and there is no family around. My W is 5 months pregnant.

2000 April: My W delivers our S. She has a long and uncomfortable pregnancy followed by a traumatising delivery. She ends up breaking her tail bone. My job is going well. Our apartment and baby's room is in order.

2000 May: We buy W a new car because it is safer for baby and her. This is when W's lack of interest in SF starts to show up.

2000 December: We begin construction on a new home. W asks Gynocologists to run tests on her for her low labidob.

2001 January - June: My W sees and endocronologist to check her hormone levels and he starts her on anti-depressants.

2001 July: We move into our new house.

2001 July - December: We continue searching for what is wrong with W's labido and see a MC who really puts her off. She also see's urologist and has a bladder problem. They do a minor "procedure" to expand her bladder. W has expressed worries over becomming pregnant again and says she does not want to. She gets a 5 year IUD installed.

2001 September: Take W to Vegas and ask her to marry me. She accepts!

2002 January - April: A major change in the company I am working for happens and the larger part of the Company goes bankrupt. I am left with changing jobs (and probably moving) or taking over the part of the Company I am working in. This meant not only running the Company, but stepping up and buying part of it. We chose to stay living where we were because moving would have meant moving further away from my W's family. This put an extremely huge burden on me personnally as I had never run a Company before. We start to see MC #2 that only can fit us in every 1.5 months. This MC does not seem to do much good for us.

2002 March: Our S has a Ceasure and stops breathing. We call an ambulance and take him to hospital. Turns out to be a febrile ceasure. S is ok.

2002 April - July: W and I organize our wedding for July. I learn to bring a Company back from disaster.

2002 July: We get married and go on Honeymoon.

2002 August: We start our S in pre-school/day care twice a week to give W a break during the week.

2002 September: We continue with MC and they switch my W to her third different anti-depressant.

2002 October: W start with Chiropractor. She believes in this and it seems to make her feel good and seems to eliminate bad headaches.

2002 October - 2003 March: We continued with MC and did not really see much progress. W started seeing phsychologist and he tried to put her on a fourth different anti-depressant. W gained weight from last anti-depressant and now thinks they are all poison. W takes herself off the drugs and will not have anything to do with them anymore.

2003 April: We do not see MC or phsychologist anymore. W does not seem to be as depressed as she had been. Atleast she is not sleeping during the day anymore.

2003 May: W asks to be rechecked for blood workup from Gynocologist because of her low labido. The results come back normal.

2003 May - 2004 April: We continue on with my working long hours and learning to run a Company. We are both disgruntled with no expert being able to give us answers. Our circular agruments end up happening whenever I try to discuss the subject. I do not discuss the subject much because I am tired of no resolution and the definite argument that will result.

2004 April: I am finally tired of just co-existing and things not improving. I find the MB site and find something to possibly help us. I realize the negative roles I have played in our situation.

2004 April - July: I try everything I can to improve our situation trying to use the MB principles. I first start going to C then my W joins me. The rest you now know.

If there are any blanks you would like filled in, just ask.

Thanks,

EL

2004- End of July, you just go out and buy the Monk's robe and bottle of grog.....

(just kidding, I know from personal experiance it is no laughing matter...I should buy a NUN habit, myself.... )

Baba2,

You make me laugh and I need that sometimes. Oh and by the way, thought I would help you out:

http://www.costumes.org/history/100pages/religious_costume.htm

Hugs,

EL

Hey, that is a nice website! One really can order a NUN habit! Thanks!

EL I have stayed off this thread because it mirrored my situation so very closely. My first M ended because of an affair (her). Lead to strengthening my distrust further.

Anyhow let me shed some first hand light on your situation as I see it.

1. Cuddle with your W whether she asks or not. Make it warm and tender and keep your hands away from any sexual spots.

2. Go to bed and snuggle with her, tell her you need this contact for stability.

3. In every way possible be near her without it turning sexual.

4. The fact that she is going to MC with you, talking to you etc is a sure sign that things are improving

5. I found that by doubting my W and in my mind criticising (sp) all of her screw ups IE she didnt finish my BDAY shopping on time. Or she didnt compliment me on such and such that I did for her, really wasn't fair.
Had I simply watched her actions, and listened to 50% of what she was saying as the truth I would have been so much further ahead.

If you make a statement regarding behaviour stick to your word. In every way your W is measuring you up to see if you will change and if it is real. By the same token always be honest with your feelings.

Good Luck and Keep us posted my friend.

Jeff