Hey Myschae,

Thanks for being here. I am having a difficult morning because our S just left with my mom on an 8 - 9 hour drive and last night to know I have not had a good feeling in my stomach about their drive. I also found out my mom decided to take a different route (one she has never driven before). I realized it is Friday the 13th. My W told me (independent of me) that she also has not had a good feeling about their drive. I am probably being a nervous parent right now. My S is only 4.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand the issues that you have with your W doing this activity. But, have you stopped to consider what benefits could come from your wife doing this activity? Can you find some positives about the situation?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My W could feel accomplished in doing somethings that help our community as a whole and indirectly help our family. She could feel more self-worth and independency. I think she would like to feel like she is not stuck in the child routine 100% of the time. She could feel like she is contributing to a greater good. All these things improve a person's attitude on life. However, dealing with all of these things can be a struggle at times. Struggles help bond people together. I cannot help feeling as though I would be missing out on this "bonding" and someone else (by virtue they are present) would get to bond some with my W. I know these are my issues to deal with for me internally. But, I also know that when she is faced with this situation, she will have to deal with things and she will have two choices: me and our family or someone else.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I know it’s scary for you and that it’s hard for you to do. Don’t let your negative self talk run away with you. Keep focused on where you’re going not where you are at this moment.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for the validation. I will try not to let my negative thinking get in the way, but it is hard because it is all I have known. I am not only concerned about her finding someone else. I am also concerned that if she does this, it would be making a fool out of me and I do not know if I can go through that again.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> *sighs* Isn’t this an issue that you’re working to over come? You can’t cloister her away from other people, Extremely Lost. It isn’t fair to her. It isn’t healthy. This is your old insecurities talking to you – reject that message.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It would be a lot more helpful if she could understand what a large struggle it is for me and would be willing to give me small validations along the way. I have asked for this and what I get is, "I have, by still being here and not doing anything like leaving." She does not understand that it is a daily/hourly struggle for me and that it is not her fault, but I need her understanding and help.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You have to let her build her OWN life. Yes, you’re married. But that doesn’t mean that she doesn’t have her own interests and needs away from the marriage and family. She’s going to have to find her own path in life that fits her OWN definition of success. Her personal goals should be allowed to grow within the marriage and that means the marriage MUST make room for them. That does not mean that she doesn’t NEED you or that she leaves you BEHIND… but rather that you walk beside her in the journey of life. And, there will be times when she’s off pursuing her own interests for her own benefit away from the family. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Understand, but scared.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Extremely Lost, there should be a balance to all things; including time away from the family. You and your son can’t be the only things allowed in her world. She needs the opportunity to be around other people. Yes, it’s scary for you. Yes, there is a potential that things could unbalance in the other direction. If that happens, then you work together to bring it back into line. Right now, it doesn’t sound like this is a huge time commitment on her part. And, yes, it’s time away from focus on the marriage and meeting your needs. But, she can’t focus on that 24/7. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What’s your alternative? If you tell her that she has to quit working on the committee will that solve the problem? It might keep her away from other people, but that doesn’t send the message that you want to send.

Again, I’m unsure how working on a committee implies having the green light to find someone else. Being around other people doesn’t mean she’s going to cheat on you, Extremely Lost.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess it is just my own insecurities. I do feel that she does not really show me that she goes out of her way to let me feel a little protected from this. I also know that if I remain on my current path, I will push her towards someone else. I am so confused and scared as to how to proceed with this, that I cannot even explain it properly.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, why not ask her to have him over while you’re there. AND THEN, you agree to be a 100% gracious host. No giving him the hairy eyeball. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This would be great, other than if I so much as suggest that he come over when I am there, she will definitely take this as a sign that I do not trust her. I feel if I say, go ahead and have him over, while I am gone, I feel like I am saying it is ok to have other men over while I am gone and I am not down with that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Now, chin up! Remember you’re working on trusting her and sending her the message that you are not trying to control her. Asking her to give up activities she enjoys because you’re afraid she’s going to find someone else is controlling behavior. One of the first signs of controlling behavior is trying to isolate a spouse from the outside world. Don’t do that, Extremely Lost. It’s not healthy for her, for you, or for your marriage. I understand you have issues from your past. Find help for those issues. (Aren’t you in IC?)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The IC became our MC.

Thanks Myschae.

EL

Well, saying there will be no having opposite sex friends over while the spouse is not present is a reasonable boundary in any marriage.

I understand you are saying it will create conflict with your wife, but that is ok. Boundaries do create conflict when they are crossed and that is a healthy thing.

You could get some good help from Mys about how to state this boundary in a firm but gentle way. And then what I think would really send the message you want is when the guys comes over, say a friendly hi and get him something to drink, then disappear elsewhere in the house or yard for an hour or two or the duration of his visit. That way you stick firmly to your boundary, and your wife gets a chance to see that you aren't going to make that boundary an exercise in showing how you don't trust her.

Extremely Lost

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Thanks for being here. I am having a difficult morning because our S just left with my mom on an 8 - 9 hour drive and last night to know I have not had a good feeling in my stomach about their drive. I also found out my mom decided to take a different route (one she has never driven before). I realized it is Friday the 13th. My W told me (independent of me) that she also has not had a good feeling about their drive. I am probably being a nervous parent right now. My S is only 4. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Perfectly understandable. She's going to call when she gets there, right?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Thanks for the validation. I will try not to let my negative thinking get in the way, but it is hard because it is all I have known. I am not only concerned about her finding someone else. I am also concerned that if she does this, it would be making a fool out of me and I do not know if I can go through that again. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know. It is hard. But, you can over come it. You're strong.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It would be a lot more helpful if she could understand what a large struggle it is for me and would be willing to give me small validations along the way. I have asked for this and what I get is, "I have, by still being here and not doing anything like leaving." She does not understand that it is a daily/hourly struggle for me and that it is not her fault, but I need her understanding and help. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do understand this. I think it's hard for her to give you that validation when she's not feeling trusted and secure. It's going to be a struggle for her to validate your feelings if she's afraid that will mean you'll want her to give up her activities. You have to be very careful in how you communicate your need for reassurance from her to ensure that you do not create the impression that it's anything SHE is doing WRONG. Otherwise, she is going to run for cover as fast as she can.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I guess it is just my own insecurities. I do feel that she does not really show me that she goes out of her way to let me feel a little protected from this. I also know that if I remain on my current path, I will push her towards someone else. I am so confused and scared as to how to proceed with this, that I cannot even explain it properly. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you should try to explain it to her… AFTER your vacation. In terms of you and how you feel.

Honey, I want you to know that I'm trying really hard to be understanding and flexible about you working on the committee. It's important to me that you understand that I don't BLAME you in any way. It just brings back old feelings from the past. I am NOT asking you to stop working with the committee. I would really appreciate it though, if you would help me deal with this by <giving me information about the meetings and what I should expect, reassuring me that you love me and aren't looking for an escape, reassuring me that you can tell that I'm trying to work on this and letting me know when I'm doing a good job with it, etc.>

Pick ONE thing that would help you feel better. Try not to make it ambiguous or too complicated. Remember, she can support you, but this is YOUR job to handle. You are responsible to manage your own emotions, even if she can't or chooses not to help you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This would be great, other than if I so much as suggest that he come over when I am there, she will definitely take this as a sign that I do not trust her. I feel if I say, go ahead and have him over, while I am gone, I feel like I am saying it is ok to have other men over while I am gone and I am not down with that. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I'd say the lesser of the two evils in this situation would still be to let her know how you feel.


Honey, I feel very uncomfortable with <guy> coming over here while I am not home. I do want to build trust with you and give you the freedom to have friends over to our home, though. I think that is very important. Therefore, if I promise to be an absolutely gracious host, greet him kindly, then allow you and him the space you need to work on the computer, will you agree to only invite him over to fix the computer when I'm home? I would really appreciate it if you would do that for me.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The IC became our MC. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah, I see. Thanks for clarifying that.

Mys

FYI, I'm going to be out of town next week, as well. I do hope you have a good vacation.

Hi EL,

You seems to have an idea in your mind that is not correct. You seem to feel that a wife should be happy and content staying home and gardening and raising a child.

This is usually not the case. Women need more than this.

Think of yourself, would you be happy staying home raising a child 24 hours a day and gardening and doing housework? I bet you would hate it.

I am an unusually independent woman but I would become extremely depressed if I did not go out somewhere each day.

It is a rare woman who could be happy being home alone, gardening and raising a child. It would limit your life so much.

But why would you expect this lifestyle outta your wife when probably YOU yourself would not be able to exist in this lifestyle of staying home, raising a child, and gardening?

It makes me wonder what you expect out of a wife?

1. Behavior
2. Spending time on what?
3. Household chores?
4. Sex? How often? Type of?
5. Friends? How often?
6. Hobbies?


Perhaps your ideal woman would be one who is happy to always stay at home, cooking, and raising children and sometimes gardening. Would you be more comfortable with a wife who does nto drive?

Hello Mineownself,

It is good to hear from you again.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, saying there will be no having opposite sex friends over while the spouse is not present is a reasonable boundary in any marriage.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for validating this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I understand you are saying it will create conflict with your wife, but that is ok. Boundaries do create conflict when they are crossed and that is a healthy thing. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can see this in a "healthy" relationship. Unfortunately, in a super sensitive relationship, conflict is additive and the more that is created, the harder it is to improve the over all R.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You could get some good help from Mys about how to state this boundary in a firm but gentle way. And then what I think would really send the message you want is when the guys comes over, say a friendly hi and get him something to drink, then disappear elsewhere in the house or yard for an hour or two or the duration of his visit. That way you stick firmly to your boundary, and your wife gets a chance to see that you aren't going to make that boundary an exercise in showing how you don't trust her. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is a good suggestion. Thanks.

Myschae -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Perfectly understandable. She's going to call when she gets there, right?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes. She has called already to say all was good two hours into the trip.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I know. It is hard. But, you can over come it. You're strong.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for the vote of confidence.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I do understand this. I think it's hard for her to give you that validation when she's not feeling trusted and secure. It's going to be a struggle for her to validate your feelings if she's afraid that will mean you'll want her to give up her activities. You have to be very careful in how you communicate your need for reassurance from her to ensure that you do not create the impression that it's anything SHE is doing WRONG. Otherwise, she is going to run for cover as fast as she can.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think you should try to explain it to her… AFTER your vacation. In terms of you and how you feel.

Honey, I want you to know that I'm trying really hard to be understanding and flexible about you working on the committee. It's important to me that you understand that I don't BLAME you in any way. It just brings back old feelings from the past. I am NOT asking you to stop working with the committee. I would really appreciate it though, if you would help me deal with this by <giving me information about the meetings and what I should expect, reassuring me that you love me and aren't looking for an escape, reassuring me that you can tell that I'm trying to work on this and letting me know when I'm doing a good job with it, etc.>

Pick ONE thing that would help you feel better. Try not to make it ambiguous or too complicated. Remember, she can support you, but this is YOUR job to handle. You are responsible to manage your own emotions, even if she can't or chooses not to help you.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you worded this very well. Thanks, I will try to say something like this AFTER the vacation.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, I'd say the lesser of the two evils in this situation would still be to let her know how you feel.


Honey, I feel very uncomfortable with <guy> coming over here while I am not home. I do want to build trust with you and give you the freedom to have friends over to our home, though. I think that is very important. Therefore, if I promise to be an absolutely gracious host, greet him kindly, then allow you and him the space you need to work on the computer, will you agree to only invite him over to fix the computer when I'm home? I would really appreciate it if you would do that for me.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks again. I will use these kind words.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> FYI, I'm going to be out of town next week, as well. I do hope you have a good vacation. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks Mys. I hope you have a great weekend as well.

Baba2 -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You seems to have an idea in your mind that is not correct. You seem to feel that a wife should be happy and content staying home and gardening and raising a child. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am sorry that I give off this impression. Deep down I do not believe this. When my W and I started off, I was trying to convince her to go after her desires to go to college and get a degree and do what ever she would like for a career. I have tried to promote her doing what she would like. Things slowly evolved to where we are now. She decided it would be nice and better for our S if we could have her stay home. I agreed, and she became a SAHM. Then she decided that it was too much to have our S home all the time. She needed a break, so we enrolled him into a Pre-school/daycare thing twice a week. Things did not get done more around the house and in fact they got a little worse. Now she is trying to do this committee thing and more time is taken away, while things get even worse around the house. It is the progression of how these things have happened and the lack of attentiveness to our house that has become increasingly more of an issue. Add in the fact that we now need to be putting in a large effort into trying to fix our M and we find that there is less time available to do this. Please do not think I am barbarian and think a woman should be barefoot and pregnant. I am not really like this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This is usually not the case. Women need more than this.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree. Anyone would need more than this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Think of yourself, would you be happy staying home raising a child 24 hours a day and gardening and doing housework? I bet you would hate it.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am an unusually independent woman but I would become extremely depressed if I did not go out somewhere each day.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My W is the most independent woman I have ever met.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It is a rare woman who could be happy being home alone, gardening and raising a child. It would limit your life so much.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can understand this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But why would you expect this lifestyle outta your wife when probably YOU yourself would not be able to exist in this lifestyle of staying home, raising a child, and gardening?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do not expect this lifestyle out of my W. I am hoping she would be sensitive to my past hurt and be able to grwo into her endeavours with me and not develop too much of an independancy away from me. I do wish to be a big part of her life, without controlling her. I wish to be involved in as many things as I possible can to share life experiences with her. I want her and I to be a team. I do not want to control her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It makes me wonder what you expect out of a wife?

1. Behavior
2. Spending time on what?
3. Household chores?
4. Sex? How often? Type of?
5. Friends? How often?
6. Hobbies?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">1) Behavior that is loving and respectful towards her H.

2) Spending time on what she enjoys as well as what is necessary for her family.

3) Completing a fair share of the household chores if she is not taking on a career job away from the home. If this was the case then we would split it all 50/50.

4) I knew you would slip this in. I would hope that we would be intimate 2 - 3 times a week. I would hope that she would be open to exploring her sexual side.

5) She would maintain a good set of friend and have a strong understanding between the difference of friendly and over the top flirting, all the while maintianing a concern that she is not disrespecting her H or M.

6) Any hobbies that interest her. Hopefully she would be open to sharing them with her H. Not because H is controlling, but because H has an interest in her and she is the most important thing in H's life.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Perhaps your ideal woman would be one who is happy to always stay at home, cooking, and raising children and sometimes gardening. Would you be more comfortable with a wife who does nto drive? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of Course not.

Baba2 I hope you can see that I am not really how you have portrayed me. I understand that sometimes I can appear as this awful person because of my past hurts causing me to have mistrust issues. I have not usually been able to see or understand when I am doing these things. Finally I have seen that I am like this at times and it is not who I really am deep down, nor who I desire to be. This is why I have entered C and write on this post, hoping to gleem some insight and help from you good people.


Thanks to all for helping me out. I will not be back until Thursday next week. I will take everything you have all mentioned into account. Again, thanks for being here.

EL

Off topic, but can any of y'all explain the 'pillow' as a gift for a guy?

Buying for a guy is easy! a Six-pack, tickets for a game .... work boots, pocket knife....any one of a thousand tools!

A Pillow!?

Could this show how much she doesn't care for him?

Hey guys,

I hope everyone had a good week. I got back today and wanted to give you an update. The trip was pretty good except for Tuesday afternoon and evening. Basically, we were driving around looking for a place for a late lunch/early dinner. I am driving. Now, ironically enough, this is similar to the example LFC brought up last week. I went down a street because I swear I saw a sign that had an arrow pointing the way I went. My W said, "why did you go this way, it was obvious that we should have went the other way?" I should not have defended myself, but I did. I said, "The sign pointed towards going down this street." She argued that it did not. I argued that I thought it did. I then asked if we could just forget it and move on. She said ok and then started in again on how the sign did not point to go where I was. We past 4-5 resturants and I said does anything look good to you? She said, " I am not going to pick because I will not pick the right things. I am not going to pick anymore." I said, "that is not good. I thought we would find something we both would like and that I would like her to pick." She said, "Mexican." Now this was interesting because she knows I do not like Mexican and I know she loves Mexican. I drive to the Mexican resturant and we park. I then ask, "did you pick Mexican to get back at me for something?" She said, "that is unbelievable. I did not pick Mexican to "get back at you." I picked Mexican because it is the only resturant we had seen." I said, there were at least six other resturants we had passed. She said, "No there was not." At this point, I said, fine, lets go eat. She then said, "I am not eating here because you do not like Mexican and I do not want to hear about it later." I said, "this will be fine and you will not hear about it later." She said, "Yeah, Right." Then she said, "turn the car on, I need to roll the window down if you are going to keep me here because I am hot." I said, "Lets go eat in the resturant." She said, "I am not going to eat there." She then said, "I have not eaten since 7:00 AM and it is 3:00 PM. I am hungry and irritated." - BACKGROUND INFO -[This was the day she had her spa appointments from 8:00 AM - 1:30 PM. I went with her and got a message at 8:00 AM and was back to our room by 9:30 AM. I got ready for when she got back, so we could go out. While she was in the spa, I remembered her complaining the night before that she did not have any milk in the room. Since our room had a refrigerator in it, I decided to go to a store and pick up some things she would like. I went and got her Oreo's, milk, bottled water, soda, and Dorittos. I did not get anything to eat because I knew my W would be hungry when she got back and we would just go and get something together. When she returned at 1:30 PM, she said that she would change and we could go. I said, "take your time and if you want, I would wait for her to take a shower." She said, "no, that she was fine with changing and just going because her toes needed to dry." I said ok, and off we went.] - END OF BACKGROUND - So, I said, "We'll I have also not eaten since breakfast because I was waiting for you so we could eat together." She said, "I knew it. I knew you would throw it in my face that I was at the spa most of the day." I said, "I was not saying this to "throw anything in your face. I was mearly letting you know that I also had not eaten anything." She said, "I am never going to use a spa on vacation again. That is it." I said, "This is not right. I was only saying that I was also hungry. I was not saying anything about the spa being a problem."

So we went and ate in the Mexican resturant. She showed an angry display, enough so that everyone in the resturant picked up on it. I said once again, "can we start over and have a great rest of the day? I would hope that the small issues we were arguing about would not ruin the rest of our trip." She said, "I am mad that you just won't let it drop. You keep at it. You should just shutup and let it drop!" This really made me angry and I just thought, fine. For some reason, unaware to me, my W had gone crazy. I do not know why she has went off the deepend. We finished our lunch, and I ate only a little with the upset stomach I now had. We spent the next 2 plus hours going through some wineries and then got back to the hotel. When we got back, I said, "I would like to have dinner out tonight (we had room service the night before)." She said, "I just ate and am not hungry." I said, "thats fine, I just wanted to eat later." She said, "like what time?" I said, "I do not care, I could eat at 6, or 7 or 8. Whatever you would like." She said, "Obviously, I am not ready for eating dinner at 6 since we just ate." I said, "fine, just tell me when." We walked back to the room and my W said, "I am going to take a nap, IF IT IS OK WITH YOU!" I said, "Fine, I am going for a walk." I ended up at the hotel conceirge and looked through several books of resturant recomendations. I was trying to find something she would like to eat because she was not that happy with the fufu french cuisines that seem to represent most of the dining in the area. The concierge and I called five different resturants and could not find an opening. The best we found was right up the street and the only time they had was 6:45 PM. I thought, we last ate at 3:00 and almost four hours later should be fine. Since my W did not give me an indication of a time she would like, I picked one.

I got back to the room and it was 5:45 PM. My W was asleep and I did not want to disturb her. So I figured that where we were going to dinner is casual and that she would not need much time to get ready because it is 5 minutes away. So I let her sleep until 6:15 and then tried to gently wake her up. When she woke up I said that I had been down by the concierge and had spent time looking through several resturants trying to find one with a menu that we both might like. I said that we had called 5 resturants and were not able to get a reservation. Then we finally found a reservation but it was for 6:45 PM (in a half hour). She got up and said, "I told you I just ate and am not hungry." I said, "I am." She said, "We'll I will just go and sit there then. Why did you go and make reservations for when I did not want to go." I said, "I tried to find something closer to 8 pm to give us more time, but there was nothing." She continued to get mad and brought up the wrong street I drove down, brought up how I would not let things drop this afternoon (which is actually opposite to the truth) and she then said that I went against what she wanted to do and made reservations at a time that did not suit her. I said that I was sorry and that it will have been 4 hours since the Mexican resturant. She said, "you just do not let it drop!" I did not understand this since she was the one who kept bringing it up. She then said, "that is it. I am going home!" She started to pack. I could not believe this. I had been trying to do nothing but be nice and have a great time with her and now she was packing and leaving. I said to her, "please do not leave. I said this is silly to throw away what could be a great vacation." As she packed she said, "I will take a cab." I felt my World falling apart. I could not believe what was happening and it all seemed so illogical. She said, "now you will have something to talk about in the next counseling session!" I could not believe she was being so mean to me. Then I said, "please do not go. I will not talk about things anymore." She stopped packing and said, "why did it have to take such a dramatic move on her part to get me to stop?" She said, "you just do not let things go and I can't take it anymore." Now this is a classic example of how she says I keep things going, I agree to stop the discussion (even ask to stop at different times) and then she has to get a last word and zinger in there. I said, " why are you now carrying this on? I have stopped." She began to pack again. Then I said, "I told you I would stop, and then you got it going again and now your going to leave and ruin the rest of the vacation. Please do not do this." She ended up stopping to pack after a little bit and said she needed to go for a walk. She walked out and then came right back in to get her purse. I said I wish you would not leave. She said, "You will not let me go home, so can't you atleast let me go for a walk?" I said fine. She then said, "is it ok for me to lay on the bed?" I did not responds. She made me feel terrible and like I was controlling, but I know I was not. I did not understand why or what was happening. I was also devistated because our wonderful trip, where I made all the assurances in the World to relieve pressure, just blew up in my face to the point my W was going to hail a cab to the airport and fly home. I am sorry, but I do not think she was being very rational the entire day and I actually feel that I did not do much wrong. I do admit to saying some things that I wish I would of rephrased or said better, but I do not feel that I was out of place much on this. Then she said, "we better go because we have reservations." I said, forget it, I am no longer hungry and we do not have to go. We both laid on the bed for about a half hour and then she said, what do you want to eat. I said, I am fine. She said, lets go and find something, I know you are hungry. We ended up at a nice resturant and had an ok time despite the afternoon.

The rest of the vacation went ok and we seemed to have a good time, but it was always on my mind wondering if she was now just trying to make the best of it and just get through the vacation. I thought it was so sad that we could not have three enjoyable days in a row. I do not know what the future holds or why this all happened. I am dumbfounded and do not think there is a point to bringing it up again. I also do not know if her being so irrational is going to go away. I also feel like she may think she could have a better time with anyone else but me. I am also wondering this by the way. I wish we could fix it, but I cannot participate in improving things if I do not even understand why things are happening the way they are.

Let me know what you think. I am prepared for any 2x4s if you think I need them. I really tried super hard on this trip. There was no pressure for any SF or affection, which by the way, neither happened.

Thanks,

EL

It sounds like you're forgetting the time lag between you changing your behavior and it being possible for someone else to trust that it has changed.

If you have a good relationship and you start doing something hurtful that you haven't done before, it will take time and repetition of that hurtful behavior before the other person ceases to be shocked by it and ceases to give you the benefit of the doubt that it won't happen again. They'll tend to believe you haven't changed, and that your previous patterns are the real you, until experience proves that the new behavior is actually the one that can be reliably expected.

The same goes when changing from bad behavior to good. You may not act controlling on a particular day or in a particular hour, but expecting your wife to react only to your behavior at that moment when you have a long history of controlling behavior simply will not work. Until time and experience prove that you are reliably noncontrolling, your wife will still react to you as though you are controlling. Expecting otherwise is neither reasonable nor productive.

As mys has pointed out, you tend to use very loaded phrasing in expressing yourself. I'd guess you probably use pretty loaded tones of voice as well. It's very likely that while you meant to be supportive and non-controlling, you used tones of voice and choice of phrasing that remind your wife of the controlling behavior you've shown her before.

Asking your wife to pick a restaurant, and then asking her if she chose what she did to punish you, is pretty unreasonable and I don't doubt she saw it as a passive-agressive attack on her. If you ask her to pick any restaurant she wants, then you don't get to complain about what she picks -- you didn't ask her to pick a restaurant YOU want, you asked her to pick one she would want. If you want her to pick any restaurant other than Mexican, you need to say you'd like her to pick and you're fine with anything but Mexican.

I feel so sad for you. Vacations are a crucible of the whole marriage. They say that if you conflict on vacation, then the marriage has 10 times more conflicts except at home, physically the spouses can avoid some of the conflict since they can avoid each other. On vacations nothing can be avoided.

She dislikes you intensely for whatever reason. And she is a supreme game player. Games are played to avoid responsibility and blame the other person. She is very passive aggressive also blaming you for not picking the "right" restaurant at the "right" time. Yet she will not participate in any decisions.

I would not be a match for her games they are so successful. I would not be able to avoid playing them. I am not good with a passive aggressive game player. I had a boyfriend like that and there was nothing I could do to change the dynamics of our relationship.

Everything was a game with him. The same boring games would be repeated again and again taking the joy out of life.

This was a common game we played every night we were together.

Boyfriend- I am hungry
Me- What do you feel like eating
him- Don't know
Me- How bout pizza?
Him- NO
Me- How bout steak?
Him- No
Me- How bout italian?
Him- No
Me- Lets find something to cook here?
Him- No I don't feel like cooking
Me- Well, what do you want then?
Him- I don't know
Me- How bout a tortilla?
Him -No
Me- etc, etc, etc, etc, etc


This is one of 100 little passive aggressive games he played on me until I almost went crazy. No wonder I was not attracted to him in the end.

Your wife probably did not want to go on that vacation with you at all. You had to drag her kicking and screaming (inside) to go with you.

Then, she was unhappy being with you so she had to play her games the whole trip. Like a spoiled little infant. "I want to leave"...this makes me so sick. What a waste of a good trip you both could have had a blast on if she was not so heinous.

I think she needs to grow up and quit being infantile and passive aggressive. People like that drain you and your precious time and life. Too bad you are married to her. I am sorry for you.

MOS could be right too, you could be playing the games along with your wife. But I don't know...The fact she knows you hate mexican food yet picks that restaurant is a "tell" of how she hates you. Can't she care what YOU like?

My husband knows I am allergic to fish and eggs. He stays away from restaurants that have the majority of foods like that without me having to tell him over and over.

I only told him once early on about my allergies yet he CARES enough to stay away. He reads ingrediants on every food he buys at the store because he wants me to be able to eat it.

His likes and dislikes are etched in my mind also and since I love him I want to avoid what he does not like.

But when you have lots of tension in your communication to begin with, and underlying anger, and she is hungry, then anything you do or say can erupt in a fight. I think the underlying tension is what does it.

If you guys were on a better footting all around, and both of you were mellow people, perhaps it would have been a better trip, one that she really appreciated being on with you!

<small>[ August 19, 2004, 02:55 PM: Message edited by: baba2 ]</small>

Hey baba,

Normally I'd agree that picking dinner plans that you know your spouse will dislike is pretty horrible behavior.

But sadly, that appears to be the level of discourse EL's marriage is currently at. He has a history of making joint plans he knows his wife will hate. Does that means he hates her? He'd probably say not.

EL, you simply have got to stop using such loaded phrasing when you talk to your wife. You asked her if choosing dinner plans she knows you dislike means she is punishing you. Yet you have a history of doing the same to her. The only two likely conclusions I can see from your asking her that are

1. You're saying choosing plans one knows the other will hate is a form of punishment, thereby stating you were punishing her on your anniversary, which makes you sound controlling to the point of insanity

or

2. You're saying that you hold her to a higher standard of behavior than you follow yourself, since when you choose dinner plans you know she'll dislike you want her to see it as something good, but when she does the same to you she's "punishing" you, which again makes you sound controlling to the point of insanity.

No matter how you slice it, that was an incredibly hurtful thing to say to your wife under the circumstances and I don't wonder she freaked out.

Hello Mineownself and Baba2,

Thanks for your guys support. I am pretty sad inside that the trip was how it was, even if it was for one afternoon and night.

Mineownself-

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It sounds like you're forgetting the time lag between you changing your behavior and it being possible for someone else to trust that it has changed.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ya know, I thought about this, but what did not make sense is that my W seemed to have gone out of her way to make trouble, even when I tried to avoid it and ask for it to stop. Then it became unreasonable, when I actually stopped and she did not stop and then went onto further accuse me of not stopping. How can one argue with someone who is shifting reality like this?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If you have a good relationship and you start doing something hurtful that you haven't done before, it will take time and repetition of that hurtful behavior before the other person ceases to be shocked by it and ceases to give you the benefit of the doubt that it won't happen again. They'll tend to believe you haven't changed, and that your previous patterns are the real you, until experience proves that the new behavior is actually the one that can be reliably expected.

The same goes when changing from bad behavior to good. You may not act controlling on a particular day or in a particular hour, but expecting your wife to react only to your behavior at that moment when you have a long history of controlling behavior simply will not work. Until time and experience prove that you are reliably noncontrolling, your wife will still react to you as though you are controlling. Expecting otherwise is neither reasonable nor productive.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand what you are saying, but I guess I am shocked because I would have thought that if I was not causing any issues, my W certainly would not create them just to have them around, but it seems like she did. I guess I was expecting to atleast have a fair shot at my changing my distructive behavior.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> As mys has pointed out, you tend to use very loaded phrasing in expressing yourself. I'd guess you probably use pretty loaded tones of voice as well. It's very likely that while you meant to be supportive and non-controlling, you used tones of voice and choice of phrasing that remind your wife of the controlling behavior you've shown her before.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You could be right here. I have realized in the past that I cannot tell when I am doing this. Maybe I did do something. I really have tried to figure out what it was because her reaction was that of such anger. I never wanted it to happen again.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Asking your wife to pick a restaurant, and then asking her if she chose what she did to punish you, is pretty unreasonable and I don't doubt she saw it as a passive-agressive attack on her. If you ask her to pick any restaurant she wants, then you don't get to complain about what she picks -- you didn't ask her to pick a restaurant YOU want, you asked her to pick one she would want. If you want her to pick any restaurant other than Mexican, you need to say you'd like her to pick and you're fine with anything but Mexican. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Using exact words, you are correct and fair point. I probably should have just kept my mouth shut and said ok. I guess I know that it is so evident between my W and I that I do not like Mexican food because at home we will get her Mexican and I will get something from a different resturant.

Baba2-

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I feel so sad for you. Vacations are a crucible of the whole marriage. They say that if you conflict on vacation, then the marriage has 10 times more conflicts except at home, physically the spouses can avoid some of the conflict since they can avoid each other. On vacations nothing can be avoided.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree and this makes me sad.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She dislikes you intensely for whatever reason. And she is a supreme game player. Games are played to avoid responsibility and blame the other person. She is very passive aggressive also blaming you for not picking the "right" restaurant at the "right" time. Yet she will not participate in any decisions.

I would not be a match for her games they are so successful. I would not be able to avoid playing them. I am not good with a passive aggressive game player. I had a boyfriend like that and there was nothing I could do to change the dynamics of our relationship. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with what you are saying. I do not understand how she could be so mad at me. I really can't. I try to do everything for her. I know I am not perfect, but my heart is ALWAYS in the right place. So I have some quirks at times, some trust issues from my past that need a little extra nurturing at times, this does not make me horrible, I don't think anyway.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Your wife probably did not want to go on that vacation with you at all. You had to drag her kicking and screaming (inside) to go with you. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe you are right. I had asked her before and she had said that she was excited about going. The MC and her were on me to take her at her words instead of saying, "are you sure?" after she would say a statement. Therefore, I took her at her word that she was looking forward to it. Why would she say differently? If she did not want to go there it would have been fine with me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think she needs to grow up and quit being infantile and passive aggressive. People like that drain you and your precious time and life. Too bad you are married to her. I am sorry for you. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am not ready to give up yet. She was not always like this. I am not sorry for being married to her. I still think we can improve our M. I just need to learn how to get her to not be so deeply angered with me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> MOS could be right too, you could be playing the games along with your wife. But I don't know...The fact she knows you hate mexican food yet picks that restaurant is a "tell" of how she hates you. Can't she care what YOU like? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hate is a pretty strong word for a married couple Baba2.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But when you have lots of tension in your communication to begin with, and underlying anger, and she is hungry, then anything you do or say can erupt in a fight. I think the underlying tension is what does it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But how do you get rid of your partner's underlying anger and tension. What really hurts is to see her deep rooted anger towards me. I do not think she even realizes the deepness of this anger. How do I turn this around without annoying her further?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If you guys were on a better footting all around, and both of you were mellow people, perhaps it would have been a better trip, one that she really appreciated being on with you!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right here. We are both not as mellow as we would like to think..

Mineownself-

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> No matter how you slice it, that was an incredibly hurtful thing to say to your wife under the circumstances and I don't wonder she freaked out. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right. I see this after the fact and I wish I could have taken that back. Unfortunately, my W sees things as once they are said, you cannot take them back.

Thanks,

EL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Extremely Lost:
<strong> You are right. I see this after the fact and I wish I could have taken that back. Unfortunately, my W sees things as once they are said, you cannot take them back.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well of course you can't take it back. Saying you want to take it back basically means she doesn't get to feel hurt by it and you're excusing yourself from healing the hurt you caused. Asking your wife to pretend that was is asking her to be dishonest and good for her for refusing.

Extremely Lost

Hello there!

I’m back, too. Well, I’m SORT of back. I’ll be pretty busy for the next couple of weeks as we do the actual pack up and move part. There are all those little details to take care of, as I’m sure you know. The good news is we found a terrific new house to move into and I can’t wait!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am sorry, but I do not think she was being very rational the entire day and I actually feel that I did not do much wrong. I do admit to saying some things that I wish I would of rephrased or said better, but I do not feel that I was out of place much on this. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is probably a matter of perspective. Do you believe that she truly felt YOU were being unreasonable, too? Her actions (packing up to leave) seem to indicate she was pretty irritated.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The rest of the vacation went ok and we seemed to have a good time, but it was always on my mind wondering if she was now just trying to make the best of it and just get through the vacation. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I find this an odd conclusion for you to draw. Do you wonder that because that is what YOU were doing (projection)?

I suggest you stop trying to interpret all of her actions and, instead, let them come as they are and react to them as if they were genuine and real. They probably ARE genuine and real. She doesn’t sound as though she’s that wildly inconsistent in what she says and how she acts, to me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I do not know what the future holds or why this all happened. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It all happened because you both stopped communicating in a reasonable manner. BOTH of you were closed off to each other’s messages and interpreting motives (DJ alert!) all over the place. You were BOTH wrong. You were BOTH at fault. You BOTH caused it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am dumbfounded and do not think there is a point to bringing it up again. I also do not know if her being so irrational is going to go away. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There probably isn’t a point to YOU bringing it up again. She might. If she does, as much as possible, try to lay aside your own pre-judgments and actually LISTEN to her point of view. You find it very irrational because you don’t understand it. That’s a clue for you that you need to turn off your internal dialogue and stop letting it drown her out. She sounds like she’s trying to explain it to you but BOTH of your tempers keep getting in the way. Let her be upset and blow off a little steam if she needs to in order to truly HEAR what her point of view is. It’s only going to be irrational as long as you continue to dismiss her words as she says them.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I also feel like she may think she could have a better time with anyone else but me. I am also wondering this by the way. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is negative self talk. It’s not helpful to you. Don’t feed it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I wish we could fix it, but I cannot participate in improving things if I do not even understand why things are happening the way they are. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Right. This is very astute of you to realize. What is the barrier to your understanding? Do you truly believe that it’s because she’s utterly incomprehensible? There will ALWAYS be parts of your spouse that you don’t understand or relate to, even if you’re a master at communication. But, it doesn’t need to happen ALL the time.

There is a strategy YOU can use to shift this dynamic. It involves learning to turn off your internal raging dialogue and develop very keen listening skills. Remember, this is all about YOU – your wife is not here. Wishing she would behave in a manner that you all ready understand is not going to work. I suspect this incident might help prove that to you. One of your biggest LB’s is DJ’s. Those DJ’s stem from your internal dialogue that is egging you on. When you start to get upset, your mind starts churning with all KINDS of motives, reasons, worries, and insecurities. Those messages YOU are sending to YOURSELF are interfering with your ability to truly listen to your wife.

For what it’s worth, when you describe the things that happen, I can easily see BOTH sides of what went on (you’re really quite good at describing things). I don’t think your wife is irrational and I don’t think you are, either.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am pretty sad inside that the trip was how it was, even if it was for one afternoon and night. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But it sounds like you had a nice ‘rest of the trip.’

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> How can one argue with someone who is shifting reality like this? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">By learning to understand that there is no such thing as “reality” when it comes to issues like these. What you have instead, is TWO perspectives. If you can learn to understand that she’s not “wrong” and she’s not “twisting reality” but, rather, that she has experienced something different than you, then understanding comes a little easier. You might not know WHAT she experienced – only that you both did not experience the same thing.

It’s like the old adage about eyewitness testimony. It’s long been understood that if you have 4 people standing on a street corner and an accident takes place in the intersection, you will often get 4 wildly different accounts of what happened. Taken together, it would defy physics for all of them to be “reality.” Yet, each person is absolutely convinced that s/he experienced reality.

Once you realize that your perspective is NOT objective reality (neither is hers), then it becomes less important and less painful to accept that she experiences events in a very different way than you. She’s being absolutely truthful about how she experienced events. You’re being truthful about how YOU experienced events. How you fix this is by setting aside your view as True Reality ™ and embracing the difference. Learn to see things from her perspective and she’ll seem much less irrational to you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> quote:

Originally posted by Extremely Lost:
You are right. I see this after the fact and I wish I could have taken that back. Unfortunately, my W sees things as once they are said, you cannot take them back.

Well of course you can't take it back. Saying you want to take it back basically means she doesn't get to feel hurt by it and you're excusing yourself from healing the hurt you caused. Asking your wife to pretend that was is asking her to be dishonest and good for her for refusing. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mineownself is right, you know. I hunted down this story from a web page. The original author wasn’t credited, but I like the message of it. It talks about “temper” but it can also be any hurtful messages that we send to our beloved spouse. So, as I go off to stress about my move… I’ll leave you with these thoughts.


The Fence
There was a little boy with a bad temper. He would become angry at his friends, his parents and just about anyone that he didn’t agree with. Many times the little boy said things out of anger that either got him in trouble or hurt others. One day his father came up with a clever idea to teach the boy about his temper. He gave him a bag of nails and told him that every time he lost his temper, to hammer a nail in the back fence. The boy didn’t like the idea, but did what his father told him, even though he was upset. The first day the boy had driven 37 nails into the fence. The next day the boy hammered 23 nails, the next day 16. Each day it gradually dwindled down until he discovered it was easier to hold his temper than to drive those nails into the fence.

Finally the day came when the boy didn't lose his temper at all. He was very excited and went to tell his father about it and the father suggested that the boy now pull out one nail for each day that he was able to hold his temper. The days passed and the young boy was finally able to tell his father that all the nails were gone. He was so proud that not one nail was left in the fence.

The father took his son by the hand and led him to the fence. He said, "You have done well, my son, but look at the holes in the fence. The fence will never be the same. Every time you loose your temper and say things you don’t mean, it leaves a scar on that person just like one of the holes in the fence. That’s why it is important for you to keep your temper under control, so that you never have to pull the nails out of the fence and leave a hole.
by unknown author


Mys

Hello Myschae and Mineownself,

Last night, I got home and have nothing horrible to report, other than my W told me about our neighbors getting a divorce. I feel so bad for them and their four kids. I do not want this to happen to us.

Mineownself -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well of course you can't take it back. Saying you want to take it back basically means she doesn't get to feel hurt by it and you're excusing yourself from healing the hurt you caused. Asking your wife to pretend that was is asking her to be dishonest and good for her for refusing. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand and agree with what your saying, but can't taking it back also mean that the person saying it realizes they were out of line and should not have said what they said? Isn't admitting that you said something you wish you did not and realizing that it hurt someone a positive step forward? Saying I was sorry and said things out of anger because I do not have good communication skills and saying that I wish I could take that back is my way of stepping up after having made the mistake. Personnally, I am not trying to skirt around trying to heal the hurt I caused, I am actually trying to heal it. Now this is my personal perspective and maybe it is skewed from what it should be. This is why I talk with you guys.

Myschae - Glad you are back.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I’m back, too. Well, I’m SORT of back. I’ll be pretty busy for the next couple of weeks as we do the actual pack up and move part. There are all those little details to take care of, as I’m sure you know. The good news is we found a terrific new house to move into and I can’t wait!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am happy for you. Congratulations on finding a terrific new house! The excitement about the new house is the best part of moving. I wish you luck with the mundane task of actually moving everything. If you are anything like my W, you will be throwing yourself completely into the move and working your tail off. Don't over do it, it will all come together. Take care of yourself.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This is probably a matter of perspective. Do you believe that she truly felt YOU were being unreasonable, too? Her actions (packing up to leave) seem to indicate she was pretty irritated.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree that this is probably a matter of perspective. I do truly believe the she felt I was being unreasonable about seeing the sign differently and taking the wrong road. However, I think the whole packing thing was over the top. Expecially since I asked/tried several times to stop the downward spiral by asking if we could regroup and not let this ruin the rest of our trip. She could have taken this as my dismissing her, which is not what I meant to do, but is how I feel sometimes when she is asking to stop the downward spiral. I think there are certain limits people should have to their anger, or the World would be out of control. A smaller limit would be to not walk out on a trip like this. Actually packing and saying you are going to get a cab and fly 7 hours back home is over the top in my book when the disagreement started over a road sign, especially when we both had a good time up to that point. Now I know the argument over the sign is not what this is all about. It is more about how we poorly communicate and tend to push eachothers buttons without even trying. It is also about my W's obvious deep anger for me. I am guessing this comes from four years of my not totally trusing her. I never realized how deep this anger was until the point she wanted to leave our trip. The mountain I must climb to get our M back on track now seems almost unclimbable. This is quite discouraging and I do not know where to begin. I am not sure if merely altering my behavior to be the behavior she always wanted is enough to fo it. I do not know what else can be done. I think she will need to choose to confront this anger at some point if we are going to get better. I do not know how to get to this situation, or how to bring it up to her or the MC without making things worse.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I find this an odd conclusion for you to draw. Do you wonder that because that is what YOU were doing (projection)?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Could be. Maybe I am not being fair here. Maybe this is a result of my fears from the past.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I suggest you stop trying to interpret all of her actions and, instead, let them come as they are and react to them as if they were genuine and real. They probably ARE genuine and real. She doesn’t sound as though she’s that wildly inconsistent in what she says and how she acts, to me.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe you are right that she is not that inconsistent in her actions. However, I have figured out that one of our distructive patterns is that we both need to have the last word in the disagreement. This is what actually keeps things going because this "last word" is usually something disrespectful towards the other. I think if I let my W have the last word without any resistance from me, with her agreement to not take a jab at me in those final words, we might be much better off. Maybe I could bring this up in MC.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It all happened because you both stopped communicating in a reasonable manner. BOTH of you were closed off to each other’s messages and interpreting motives (DJ alert!) all over the place. You were BOTH wrong. You were BOTH at fault. You BOTH caused it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, you are correct. I feel that I was powerless to stop it. I actually did ask to stop several times in a nonLBing manner. This did not work, even when she agreed to stop.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> There probably isn’t a point to YOU bringing it up again. She might. If she does, as much as possible, try to lay aside your own pre-judgments and actually LISTEN to her point of view. You find it very irrational because you don’t understand it. That’s a clue for you that you need to turn off your internal dialogue and stop letting it drown her out. She sounds like she’s trying to explain it to you but BOTH of your tempers keep getting in the way. Let her be upset and blow off a little steam if she needs to in order to truly HEAR what her point of view is. It’s only going to be irrational as long as you continue to dismiss her words as she says them.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right. This is part of my being more aware of my W's feelings and perspectives. I understand she probably is not at a point where she can actually consider my different perspective and not get mad because it is different to hers. This is not a disrespectful judgment.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This is negative self talk. It’s not helpful to you. Don’t feed it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks, but it is how I am made to feel - unloved, undesired, no motivation to be around me, no smiles.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Right. This is very astute of you to realize. What is the barrier to your understanding? Do you truly believe that it’s because she’s utterly incomprehensible? There will ALWAYS be parts of your spouse that you don’t understand or relate to, even if you’re a master at communication. But, it doesn’t need to happen ALL the time.

There is a strategy YOU can use to shift this dynamic. It involves learning to turn off your internal raging dialogue and develop very keen listening skills. Remember, this is all about YOU – your wife is not here. Wishing she would behave in a manner that you all ready understand is not going to work. I suspect this incident might help prove that to you. One of your biggest LB’s is DJ’s. Those DJ’s stem from your internal dialogue that is egging you on. When you start to get upset, your mind starts churning with all KINDS of motives, reasons, worries, and insecurities. Those messages YOU are sending to YOURSELF are interfering with your ability to truly listen to your wife.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think part of my barrier is that I am not seeing things as big of a problem as she sees them. I am trying to understand these things more, but I feel the change so often it is near to impossible ofr me to follow any steadfast rules to keep myself from getting off track. I also feel that my W's deep rooted anger towards me is a really big issue that does not allow her to let us get through small things (even when they really are small things to her). Its weird, but I feel like I am being punished for something over and over again. I can understand this to a point, but then after a while, when a person is continually punished, they end up withdrawing or shutting down. I have tried to explain to my W and the MC about my feeling punished. This just irritates my W further and the MC agreed that my W should be careful of doing this. However, it does not seem to stop. I think my W may feel that this is a "little" thing to her (and me), when it actually is a big thing to me. Also, when we get into a disagreement, my W is just waiting for me to same something that even slightly resembles recomendations from the MC or books I have read. When I do say something towards a healthier relationship, she says, "There you go, I wondered when you would bring up the phsychology crap." To me this is telling me that she is not willing to really work on our M together and will not be held by any rules from the MC or books. I also feel like she is making me do the work if I want to improve our M because she is actually fine with things (in her mind). I really think she does not realize the anger built up towards me. I can see it now in everything she does that involves me. It causes her to treat me as less than a human beign at times. When I actually bring this up to her in a situation where she is treating me less than human, she will turn it around and say, "what do you want me to do?" or "tell me how you want me to act." This is said in such a sarcastic way as she is playing the role of a marter now and I am a horrible person for saying that I did not like the way I was just treated. Usually it is something I would think is obvious and feel she would never treat someone she just met like this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> For what it’s worth, when you describe the things that happen, I can easily see BOTH sides of what went on (you’re really quite good at describing things). I don’t think your wife is irrational and I don’t think you are, either. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thank you. It is very important to me to try and give you guys the whole story without me putting it into my own perspective filter first. I feel this will help you guys give me the best input. I still am unsure about her not being irrational in this situation. I mean, who actually leaves a trip like this over the disagreement we had with already having a good first half of the trip? Unfortunately, it has taught her to go to the extreme and I will cave. This is dangerous because where does she go after the extreme has become the norm?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But it sounds like you had a nice ‘rest of the trip.’
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I thought the trip was good as a whole. My W says she had a good trip too. [My negative side comming out] - I hope she really means this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> By learning to understand that there is no such thing as “reality” when it comes to issues like these. What you have instead, is TWO perspectives. If you can learn to understand that she’s not “wrong” and she’s not “twisting reality” but, rather, that she has experienced something different than you, then understanding comes a little easier. You might not know WHAT she experienced – only that you both did not experience the same thing.

It’s like the old adage about eyewitness testimony. It’s long been understood that if you have 4 people standing on a street corner and an accident takes place in the intersection, you will often get 4 wildly different accounts of what happened. Taken together, it would defy physics for all of them to be “reality.” Yet, each person is absolutely convinced that s/he experienced reality.

Once you realize that your perspective is NOT objective reality (neither is hers), then it becomes less important and less painful to accept that she experiences events in a very different way than you. She’s being absolutely truthful about how she experienced events. You’re being truthful about how YOU experienced events. How you fix this is by setting aside your view as True Reality ™ and embracing the difference. Learn to see things from her perspective and she’ll seem much less irrational to you. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand what you are saying and agree. I will try really hard to do this. The one concern I have is that since we both do this and both try to imprint our perspective on the other, how do I eventually show this to my W. Otherwise she is just going to always take her perspective as the concrete reality, if I am being so passive and open to her perspective?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Mineownself is right, you know. I hunted down this story from a web page. The original author wasn’t credited, but I like the message of it. It talks about “temper” but it can also be any hurtful messages that we send to our beloved spouse. So, as I go off to stress about my move… I’ll leave you with these thoughts.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for the thoughts. They make you think. Try not to stress too much with your move.

Thanks,

EL

I don't know much of anything, but I wonder if you are trying TOO hard, or seem TOO needy.

Can it be that it could be seen that you are like a little lost puppy dog that just keeps following her around and around and around.

Could it be that you might just need to toughen up a little? Like when she says "I'M GOING HOME!" and starts packing you could just say 'fine.....go!'

It just sounds (and I don't know!) that you are too needy and clingy, and that does drive people away.

Hey Trg1,

Yes, you could have a point here. Basically, by trying to hear her and understand her coupled with the MB concept that things can only get better through spending time together as well as practicing the other principles, one could end up appearing too clingy etc..

The thing is that if I said what you suggested, and believe me I thought about it, my W is so head strong that she would have left and it would have ruined our trip entirely. It most likely would have started the ball rolling in a really negative direction towards divorce on her end.

It is difficult to not appear clingy without comming accross as fine with the relationship and not wanting to work on the relationship. Remember, I took this stance for a year and it did not help. I did not push her, I did things to protect myself and my feelings and exhibited more of an independence. This got me no where but frustrated and more angry for a long time.

I agree with you on the pillow as a gift thing. My W claims she was trying to make my sleep more comfortable, although I am one of those people who could sleep most anywhere and through most anything. She claims I am too difficult to buy gifts for. However, you not even knowing me listed tools, which I would like.

Thanks for the input.

EL

I sure give you ten tons of credit for effort!

I would have given up a long time ago!

I would be saying 'F*** her*

Maybe I have too much ego or pride or whatever, or don't know what love is.

I think your wife really really dislikes you on a deep level. Her extreme hostility drips out of everything she says or does.

On a moment when she is not hostile, you probably wait about 5 minutes and that familiar hostility will show itself once again.

I have been around couples where one of the two has this hostility toward the other one.

1. It is a very stressful feeling

2. The atmosphere is such that "you could cut it with a knife"

3. You must watch every word you say or everything you do or you will trigger the high level of hostility to burst out.

4. Words said to each other are tense, terse, snappy, short, and hostile.

5. To avoid overt acts of hostility, the partners try and avoid spending time with each other. Each does thier own thing with outside friends. The "more hostile one" of the two is the one who wants to spend most of the time away from the other one that they extrememly dislike.

6. This hostility is tiring and exhausting. It is hard to keep it contained.

7. This would explain her flirting with other men and her not caring that you feel bad about her dressing like a slut and going out dancing. She would do anything to bug you without "appearing to cross the lines". Her hostility is motivating her to play games with you and torture you on an inner spirit level. Including flirting with other men, e-mailing men, dressing like a slut ang going out dancing in bars, going after work to bars, etc. She could care less how you feel about her doing all these things because they are All a product of her hostility toward you.

8. This hostility of one partner will not go away without digging into the cause thru intensive counseling. Perhaps this hostility started way before your marriage and now you have become her target for her hostile and unhappy life.


Your wife may not even realize she is doing 100 little things to show her dislike to you. (Like going to the Mexican restaurant and giving you the stupid pillow and dressing slutty and dancing and going to bars, etc. ) She may do uncaring things like this without even realizing it because her great hostility for you eliminates her sensitivity toward you or her love for you. If you hurt yourself somehow, would she even appear to care?

Are you as hostile toward her as she is toward you?


She is really really hostile. She is spitt'en nails man!

<small>[ August 20, 2004, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: baba2 ]</small>

Thanks TRG1.

Hello Baba2,

Are you riled up or what?

How are you doing today?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think your wife really really dislikes you on a deep level. Her extreme hostility drips out of everything she says or does.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think she does not treat me as good as she used to. I do think she is not as happy with me as she used to be. This is what saddens me and I am working on trying to change. I do not really know what has caused this, although I think it is probably more than one thing over time. I think she may have some built up resentment towards me for changing her life in an uncontrolable way like us getting pregnant, her leaving her two jobs, home and friends, having to instantly become a mother, her body changing from pregnancy and never going back to how it use to be.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> On a moment when she is not hostile, you probably wait about 5 minutes and that familiar hostility will show itself once again. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would not agree with this all the time. I will say that I have seen her switch back and forth without warning before.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 1. It is a very stressful feeling
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is correct.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 2. The atmosphere is such that "you could cut it with a knife" </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It was like this when we ate at the Mexican resturant on vacation. Other times, it is not like this though.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 3. You must watch every word you say or everything you do or you will trigger the high level of hostility to burst out. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is the same as the phrase, "walking on egg shells." We both feel this way at times.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 4. Words said to each other are tense, terse, snappy, short, and hostile.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is not like this all the time. Plus, when we get in arguments now, I am more aware of this potentially happening and I try to not let it get to this point.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 5. To avoid overt acts of hostility, the partners try and avoid spending time with each other. Each does thier own thing with outside friends. The "more hostile one" of the two is the one who wants to spend most of the time away from the other one that they extrememly dislike. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We actually do a lot of things together. Especially projects around the house. I do not spend time away from the house with other friends. I work, go home, spend time with W and son, go to work. The only time my W spends time without me is when I am at work or she is at a board meeting. I think it is more her wanting to feel some self accomplishment, not necessarily be away from me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 6. This hostility is tiring and exhausting. It is hard to keep it contained. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You bet it is. This is why we must try and stop this from happening and end our hostilities from both of us.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 7. This would explain her flirting with other men and her not caring that you feel bad about her dressing like a slut and going out dancing. She would do anything to bug you without "appearing to cross the lines". Her hostility is motivating her to play games with you and torture you on an inner spirit level. Including flirting with other men, e-mailing men, dressing like a slut ang going out dancing in bars, going after work to bars, etc. She could care less how you feel about her doing all these things because they are All a product of her hostility toward you. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now, I think my W talks to other guys because of a lack of affection from her father growing up. I think she is looking for acceptance. I do not ever remember saying that my W dresses up like a slut and goes to bars. She goes out with the girls in our neighborhood maybe three - four times a year. When they go out she dresses nice and puts on makeup. This does not make her look like a slut. [Behave baba2].

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 8. This hostility of one partner will not go away without digging into the cause thru intensive counseling. Perhaps this hostility started way before your marriage and now you have become her target for her hostile and unhappy life. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with you. This is why I think MC is so important for us right now. We both have major issues. Perhaps, I am the lucky one because I have been able to finally realize 1) I have issues; 2) They are trust issues that cause me to act controlling or jealous towards my W; 3) I agree that this is not fair to my W and I need to get these under control. Unfortunately, my W only feels that her issues and how she treats me are a by product of my issues eventually making her do what she does now. Maybe she has more deep rooted issues that need to come out and be dealt with. However, in the shroud of my working on my own issues and her learning that I have changed so she can feel comfortable being herself again, I think her potentially deeper issues are being over looked. Also, I do not know how I would be able to broach this with her without causing further issues. Therefore, I think I must try and follow the path that I am on and see if this makes a difference or not. If it does not, then eventually I will have to force the issue of her deepre issues.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Your wife may not even realize she is doing 100 little things to show her dislike to you. (Like going to the Mexican restaurant and giving you the stupid pillow and dressing slutty and dancing and going to bars, etc. ) She may do uncaring things like this without even realizing it because her great hostility for you eliminates her sensitivity toward you or her love for you. If you hurt yourself somehow, would she even appear to care?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I truly believe she is not seeing half the things she does to me. This could be caused by some pent up hostility towards me. If I hurt myself, she would appear to care.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Are you as hostile toward her as she is toward you? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My (personal perspective) answer on this is absolutely not. I feel I try to treat my W as a queen. The woman I love forever. I want to grow old with this woman. I will say, that maybe I do sometimes act hostile towards her and do not realize it. I say this because I believe there are potentially things I am not seeing about how I act.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She is really really hostile. She is spitt'en nails man!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She actually rarely has outbursts. It is usually the opposite where she is like she is mostly withdrawn.

Thanks,

EL