Ugh.. This is vague because it's a feeling. It's kind of like... Knowing we both understand each other's perspective, and having either agreed or agreed to disagree, for now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Ugh.. This is vague because it's a feeling. It's kind of like... Knowing we both understand each other's perspective, and having either agreed or agreed to disagree, for now. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good. Good. You’re doing great.

Now then, have there ever been times you couldn’t reach a joint conclusion and what did you do then?

What if she wants to agree to disagree and you’re not sure she quite understands your perspective yet (despite her assertion that she does)? When is enough, enough?

Limits.. limits…limits are good.

(In case you’re wondering, what I’m trying to build here is a very clear, very concise statement of what ELW’s can expect if she agrees to stop a conversation and come back to it. I suspect that one of her fears is being trapped in an endless round of trying to agree the conversation ends. I think that she’s going to be a bit resistant to the idea of something as vague as a feeling so I’m trying to nail down the safest, clearest statement of expectation that he can possibly provide as enticement. There is nothing like an explicit statement of intent to head off a possible DJ. I realize that you aren’t EL, but I think this might toss out some ideas. )

Thank you!

Mys

To be honest, that was where I had to deal with my own rage issues. We hit a strong distancer pursuer pattern early on in our relationship. This came to the point where she was afraid of *any* kind of discussion with me. I think we finally got past the brunt of that a while back.

In order to do that, I had to become okay with the idea of being dissatisfied and broaching an issue when it comes up a second time.

I've learned to recognize when she's at a point where she can no longer put anything into the conversation. (That came about with her depression, she hits a mental shut off.)

My W is not the kind to ask questions until she's sure she understands me. She listens, processes, and then comes back later. So I've learned to recognize my inability to communicate my position effectively the first time. So, I when either of us notices I'm repeating myself, I say to myself, "I'm just not getting my thought through," and move on until the issue resurfaces.

As you can tell from my above posts, this is difficult for me, because my tendency is to rephrase and re-explain ad nauseum.

Once more into the abyss, I go. I agree with you about disagreeing on points 1 and 2. I actually think we are IN agreement on point number 3, in the sense that I think that crossing boundaries by either spouse is a bad idea.

I understand what you’re saying on point number 1.

This one, however…

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The #2 trigger on GNO is when the W comes back glowing, and utters words such as "That was the *most* fun I've had in a long time. I can't *wait* until we do it again." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">.. I thought about. I went and did some laundry and thought about it some more. I’ve twisted and turned it but I still can’t quite figure it out.

I have a couple of clarifying questions to ask.

Does it bother you in a nostalgic “Gee, I wanted go along so I could have fun, too.” kind of way? As in, do you also yearn to sit around with a bunch of women and talk with them?

Or, does it bother you that she had a good time? That’s the part that confuses me. What’s the point of her going out to have a.. <bad?, mediocre?> time? Hrm. I don’t think I’m expressing this very well – it’s coming across as much more petty and argumentative than I mean it. Perhaps the better question would be.. what sort of thing are you hoping she’ll come back and say? How much happiness is appropriate?

Mys

It's a really basic reaction. Nothing complex.

"Shoot, I wish she had that much fun with *me*."

From an L-Speak perspective:

"That was fun, I want to do it again sometime."

It's not "how much happiness." as much as how much happiness relative to how much happiness I perceive her having with me.

In most of the GNO situations I've experienced, the woman tends to get *very* excited by the prospect, including much anticipation. And then she comes back glowing.

A guy sits there and thinks, "Gee, I don't remember her getting *this* worked up about anything I do with her."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It's a really basic reaction. Nothing complex.

"Shoot, I wish she had that much fun with *me*."
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Aha! Now I think I understand. Thank you for clarifying.

The article you linked to essentially suggests cutting out activities that you find more enjoyable than activities with your spouse. Of course, cutting out your spouse’s activities is a much more difficult thing to do – you have to tread very carefully to avoid selfish demands and disrespectful judgments there!

I see a few logistical nightmares:

Determining whether or not she REALLY means it that way. (Maybe she does have just as much fun with *you*.) Obviously at some point you’d have to ask the question because assuming opens the door to a huge DJ.

Finding a way to reach an enthusiastic agreement for her to stop doing something solely BECAUSE she likes it (too much) and not because it’s inappropriate in other ways because that lends the assumption that *you* might be enthusiastic if she only liked it ‘less’ or liked what you did ‘more’, I suppose. Maybe the solution is offering to find something she likes more since asking someone to like something less sounds really weird?

In a situation where the marriage is troubled and the couple is in conflict, ensuring that protecting the marriage does not equate to completely isolating one spouse from all other people, activities, or support. I think that is a very dangerous situation. (As important as marriage is, I still put the health and well-being of the individuals over the needs of the marriage.)

Did I miss any?

Mys

<small>[ August 30, 2004, 11:47 AM: Message edited by: myschae ]</small>

I think the *best* compromise is to find a way to share it. That's why I dislike most GNO concepts and asked some of the one-liner questions I did up above.

If GNO is exclusive, then I can't share it with her, and it becomes a negotiation of how to leave it with her.

If it is not exclusive, then it becomes my choice whether or not I'm sharing this wonderful time with my wife. And my reaction is more:

"Shoot, I wish I'd gone along."
"Heh, I bet I wouldn't have enjoyed it so much."
"Darn, maybe next time I'll go, too."

I think that negotiating for leaving the activity out all together is the last resort.


As a note, it is also possible to take an exclusive GNO and transfer some of the wonderfulness to your H. A lot of GNO's go until 3:30 when your husband is half asleep, and doesn't really want to see you glowing.

Instead, make a GNO a Girl's Day out or a Girl's Afternoon/Evening out. Then when you get home, flush with excitement, take time to continue the fun with your H. And no, not just SF. Use your enthusiasm and good spirit's to meet one of his EN.

Can you imagine a guys reaction if you enthusiastically meet his need for SF after every GNO? He'd be more excited by it than you are. ;-D

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Can you imagine a guys reaction if you enthusiastically meet his need for SF after every GNO? He'd be more excited by it than you are. ;-D
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, this is EXACTLY what happens in my relationship. Maybe that’s why he’s so enthusiastically supportive. I come back after an evening of talking about life, love, and our relationship with my friends SO completely worked up that he essentially gets jumped (I’m not usually in the mood to wait for him to offer, if you get my drift.) It usually lasts a couple of days… And, yes, he’s been known to suggest that I call my girls on occasion. (Heh, never really thought of why, I thought it was cause he noticed I was moping around!)

I’m not sure why, but something about the whole thing makes me want to make an impression on him. *shrugs* I thought that was pretty common (my friends an I all seem to react that way) but evidently it’s not as universal as I thought. One of our ‘afternoon’s out’ actually comprised going out and shopping for some risqué lingerie and plotting surprise evenings at home. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

Oh well, I suppose THAT can’t be POJA’d.

I will say that I’m surprised that you perceive no benefits of her “glowing” – not necessarily SF but isn’t she more relaxed and in a better mood?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think the *best* compromise is to find a way to share it. That's why I dislike most GNO concepts and asked some of the one-liner questions I did up above. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It can be tough because she’s coordinating with other people. Often that does entail her staying behind – which is reasonable too, I suppose. But, then you get the problem of her being enthusiastic about not going if her friends don’t want to you to come. The topics we discuss are likely to change if you’re there.. that’s not necessarily a terrible thing but it does change the evening/day/whatever. We couldn’t take you lingerie shopping with us.

Mys

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will say that I’m surprised that you perceive no benefits of her “glowing” – not necessarily SF but isn’t she more relaxed and in a better mood? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As long as it extends to being home, then that's the kind of thing I'm advocating for, actually. As down as she gets some times, I'm looking for *anything* to help her mood, these days. ;-D

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I come back after an evening of talking about life, love, and our relationship with my friends</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">See, that makes it even better, I think... The GNO that I am reacting to, and felt was described, certainly had nothing to do with talking about life, love, and your relationship with your H. It was all about getting your jollies with your wild GFs. ;-D


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It can be tough because she’s coordinating with other people. Often that does entail her staying behind – which is reasonable too, I suppose. But, then you get the problem of her being enthusiastic about not going if her friends don’t want to you to come. The topics we discuss are likely to change if you’re there.. that’s not necessarily a terrible thing but it does change the evening/day/whatever. We couldn’t take you lingerie shopping with us. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">To take care of some of that, you do both couples and GNO. Sometimes the guys are involved. Sometimes they aren't. I think often girls give guys the short end of the stick when it comes to that sort of a thing. After all, I seem to be doing pretty well talking about life, love, and relationships here. ;-D Gender bias is never fun.

It helps if the H feels like he *knows* who his W is going out with, and that they're supportive of his relationship with his W.

BTW, you sound like the kind of friend I wish my wife could have. Right now, she's having real problems connecting with other people. You definitely strike me as the kind of nice,caring person she could get along with.


NE weigh...

You know, maybe the problem is that you and I are talking about different GNO activities. When I say GNO, I mean activities that I tend to do specifically with my friends. For example, we go bathing suit shopping together. Now, I can go bathing suit shopping with THEM or with my H. I am not going to take him bathing suit shopping (or bra shopping) with THEM. Nor, would I be going bathing suit or bra shopping with their husbands.

The types of activities that I typically associate are: going out to dinner, going shopping, going to lunch, going over to someone’s house (generally because she is alone and her H is out of town) and watching weepy movies, pampered chef <tupperware> parties, baby showers, decorating parties, meeting for coffee, crafting parties, baking parties and other very typically female activities. I suppose it’s awkward to be excluded as a guy but I have a hard time imagining my H ever missing any of that (he has confirmed my belief). Most of the time, it’s no where he wants to be and nothing he wants to do. He is just so glad not to have to go Xmas shopping with me. During this time we talk about life, love, you guys, relationships, work, family, cooking, where to buy the best <item>, diets, sex, etc.

Of course, women are different and I’m sure they other women enjoy other activities but I did state UP FRONT that whatever activity should be something that both spouse’s agree is appropriate. I think maybe you and I are disconnecting about what types of activities you’re envisioning vs. what I’m picturing. Or, maybe you really would be interested in going to a baby shower. Also, about how excited “we” get about that stuff and how it translates over to the relationship. From my experience it translates over in a significantly positive way (more and better SF, a happy, cheerful wife, less “chores” for him). In your experience, it seems to translate over in a negative way or not at all.

Mys

We definitely have a disconnect about what kind of GNO we're discussing.

I'm more describing what one earlier poster stated: Going out club hopping, getting blasted, and dirty dancing with random guys, then coming home saying how much fun that was and how we'd have to do it again.

FYI, I am *not* describing something my W does. Just something I've come across other women doing.

No, I'm not fond of baby showers. Too much "cute." Gives me the willies. :-D

Of course, having other good relationships is a great bonus. It's something I'm trying to find a way to get my wife hooked in to. (It's difficult for her, as she's not typical, and she doesn't have many resources right now.) But... I think we've gone far enough that we probably can stop jacking poor EL's thread. ;-D

Ok. I’m almost ready to let this go except I’m still stuck on one item.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> We definitely have a disconnect about what kind of GNO we're discussing. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand that. I confess I’m somewhat relieved.. not that there would be ANYTHING wrong with you wanting to attend baby showers. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

To me, the specific activity is unimportant as long as it’s agreed to be appropriate by both parties. If my H believed that baby showers should never be attended then I should be willing to respect that. But maybe he doesn’t mind me meeting a friend for coffee. The two people involved should figure out what activities are OK.

I suspect that you and I will agree on this point.

Where I’m still stuck is on the “best of” item. Let’s assume for a moment that the activity is not the problem. So, let’s consider.. shopping. I go shopping with both my H and my friends but I never go shopping with BOTH my H and my friends at the same time. It’s always one or the other because going with them specifically excludes him because we are all trying things on and that’s a little uncomfortable.

So, several years ago, my H and I were going on vacation – we were taking a cruise. I had NOTHING to wear. I was actually really bummed about it because I hate shopping for clothes on a time crunch and was stressed out. I ended up calling my friends and off we went to the stores and we had an absolutely WONDERFUL time. We found everything I needed and what was really neat is that we didn’t just get the bare necessities of what I needed, we got all the outfits, accessories, shoes, frilly under things, etc. EVERYTHING. And, we did it all well within budget!

I still remember walking (floating) in the door with my arms full of bags; all lit up with excitement. I was SO THRILLED with everything I found and I was so excited about the trip, by extension. I was barely in the door before I started babbling at my H about what a great time I had, how we found so much NEAT stuff, how this stuff was just THE BEST, how I saved so much money, how I wanted to model all the outfits (and frilly things) for him, how I couldn’t wait to get to the boat, etc., etc.

I would have been floored - absolutely floored if his reaction was “Gee, you never get that excited about shopping with ME.”

The thing is that it’s true. I never DO get that excited about shopping with him. When we go shopping the poor dear stands there holding things. It’s not like he’s going to look for things that fit him in the women’s section. If I’d gone with him I’d have gotten the bare necessities as quickly as possible. I never try to extend the shopping trip when he's around. If I take him into the unmentionables section, he stands there trying to figure out where to look. He’s not searching through the racks to find that little something on sale that’s my size. He also doesn’t size up my outfit and drag me off to the accessory section to find just the right big necklace or dangly earrings. And, I don’t mean to be gender biased. I’ve met some pretty snazzy male dressers who have amazing fashion sense – but none of the ones I’ve met are married to women.

So, is it that there are some activities that no matter HOW excited, good of a time, glowing, etc., your wife is about it would NEVER bother you? (Like shopping..) Or, is it anything that she’d have a better time with someone else that bothers you?

My guess is that it’s activity related. My HOPE is that it’s activity related. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Because, if so, that’s a lot easier to negotiate – all you have to do is figure out which activities bother you. If it’s everything (anything) then I hope you’re up to being a jack of all trades. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Which neatly ties back into this thread because, assuming I’m on to something… EL, what things would never bother you, sometimes bother you, or always bother you? That would be a good basis for discussion.

Mys

Here's my take on that... And I think we're safe:

If youre "That was the BEST" is either by implied or specific statement category related. *And* if that is something that we *both have an understanding that I just wouldn't be into* then I don't think it would bother me.

For instance, "That was just the BEST time I've ever had at a baby shower" would cause me to inquire what was so cool about it, but that's about it.

However, if my wife were to say to me, "That was the BEST time, I've ever had talking theology," I would get seriously miffed. (That's what got us into our relationship in the first place.)

Contrasted to, "That was the *Best* time I've ever had shopping for clothes!" would cause me to be conflicted. We do most of our shopping together, and I like to think I do pretty good shopping with her. Yeah, I hold her clothes, but she models for me,etc... So I would be mostly think, "Hey! What's wrong with shopping with me?" and "What do I do wrong when shopping."

Hello All -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But... I think we've gone far enough that we probably can stop jacking poor EL's thread. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You have taken the words right out of my mouth! I am glad to see this post has been active over the weekend, but I think you guys are still at the same point we all were on Friday. Myschae, I am in total agreement with you that if my W did what you do (as far as going out with the girls and doing "girly things"), I would be fine with this. Even better, if my W came home and had an increased desire in SF with me - duh! I also agree with CTJ that with the current situation of where our M is, my W going out with the "girls" from the neighborhood going to dinner and then clubbing and coming back not to sober does present some issues. Some of these issues are my own issues I must learn to deal with because of my past and are in no way the fault of my poor W. However, when the girls are on their way out and a couple of them are saying things, like lets go to a strip club or the last time such and such was soooo funny when she got drunk and danced with that guy. These are all married women and should behave in a proper and married manner. Our M is just not in a great place right now to lend me to be very open about this concept. I agree that if our M was better and my W actually showed me subtle ways that I was "the only one for her" I would be more open to her doing some things with these girls. With this being said, I am going to try and re-direct this post back to what I need right now, which is your valuable opinions on things I need to do to help my M. As I have said in earlier posts, I do enjoy a theoretical discussion, but my energies are currently focused elsewhere.

CTJ - I wanted to clear a few things up. My W is only open to "fixing" our M if it is not a bother to her right now. She had been clinically diagnosed with depression and treated with meds. I believe she is 80% better than she used to be. She is no longer on meds nor will she probably ever be open to taking them again. I am very much on my own in trying to turn this M around (at the moment). Anything that is said to my W, regarding our M, MC or fixing things is seen as bad, frustrating, annoying (fill in whatever negative thing you wish).

Now onto an update. This weekend, my W and I went to a wine tasting that was put on at our club house. We both had fun and had a good time. At the end of the night, we had another couple and a neighbor guy (who is a friend of ours and his W was out on a "girls night" back to our house for more wine and some hot tubing. A couple of us (including me) got sick from too much wine. My W and a neighbor guy both got sick as well. I ended up having to be the one to take care of my W and this other neighbor. The next day we were supposed to take our S to a pool party next door. Both my W and I were not feeling good. However, I was the one expected to take our S and be OK for the day. All day my W stayed on the couch. This is not a problem and was understandable because I know she felt bad. The problem I had is that she was irritated because she was sick. She treated me badly through her words, because she was sick and she said, it is "that time of the month." All this is understandable, but my being treated poorly because of all of this I do not find acceptable. I mentioned this to my W and she calimed it was because she was sick, but I told her her behavior was hurtful to me. She did not speak much for the rest of the night.

During the Saturday evening, she was telling quite often how she loved me. She did not remember saying this the next day. I feel good because I think when you drink your defenses are lower and what she said is truly how she really feels. She is still in withdrawl and is still under some influence of depression (although I personally feel she is getting better and almost back to normal with regards to the depression).

All in all I would think this last weekend was positive. We really did not get into any fights. We had a good time (until people got sick) on Saturday. I took care of my W and S on Sunday. I cleaned the house and did dishes on Sunday night. My W said, "Honey, you do not have to do that." I said, "I am doing this because I know you are not feeling very well and I know what it is like to feel crummy and have to look at a mess. However, if it is bothering you that I am doing these things, I am willing to stop, but I also do not mind doing them while I am on a roll." She said, "OK" and did not argue the point any further.

Myschae -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, I’m finally (FINALLY) out of the old house! Yay! Man, there is just nothing more depressing than when you get down to the dregs of what’s left to completely clean out a house. Last week was just .. harrowing. I am SO glad it’s over and I’m reunited with my H in temporary housing until we can complete escrow on our new house. Moving in is never as awful as moving out, though. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am so happy you are through the tough part. Take a well diserved break (yah, right). You are probably starting to stress about organizing your knew house. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Oh? What parts do you think she would disagree with? I’d have thought the idea of an END time would be attractive to her .
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sure, she is always up for the ending. It is the start where there are problems. This says "pick a time" which even the idea is an LB for her right now. This also said, get a babysitter, do not do laundry etc.. and I am made to feel discussing our M is not important enough to get a sitter or stop the laundry. I am not saying our M is not important enough. I think she clearly seperates our M and discussing our M. She does not enjoy or freely participate in the discussion of improving our M at this time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Heh. I think you both need work on this one.

One issue might be how you define ‘topic at hand.’ The agenda for the conversation has to be set by agreement. Consider this example: </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I agree. We both need some help here. It is tough to agree when just talking about improving the M is an LB. Where is one to begin? How do I make her more comfortable or willing to discuss things? Am I caught in a take some time, while trying to meet her EN's and show her I trust her, and then after say a month mention our M again. Do you think I am now relegated to moving at this slow a pace?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think we need to change this to including building agreement on setting an agenda for the conversation so that you both know what you’re talking about. What do you think?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I could agree to this. Maybe I need to approach my W about discussing what we could do when we find we have reached a disagreement. Maybe we can come up with some rules to make each other more comfortable in discussing things. Unfortunately, I feel that talking about things like this have now become like talking about SF to her. I have tried to talk about it so much that any attempt now puts her off. When I do not talk about things, we get a long, but do not really change for the better. This is my dilema. Do I continue to try and broach a subject knowing that any subject I try to talk about with her that is about US, will be met with dissapointment, her feeling some type of pressure and me ending up feeling further unresolved as far as any forward progress. When I try to discuss things with her, I am often left with the feeling that I am worse off than before I said anything. It is not always about my loaded ways of shooting my own foot off. Sometimes it is purely about her not interested in even talking about US as a subject. This is my POV and I am not trash talking my W here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Right. One very important component to being able to ask for what you want is KNOWING what you want. Another is KNOWING what areas you’re open to negotiate. POJA is about building enthusiastic agreements. Know what makes you enthusiastic and what would make you resentful. If you can go into a discussion with that information, then it becomes much, much easier.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know what I want. I also know how much I am willing to compromise. The problem is I am currently compromising what I want way too much to remain acceptable. I do not know if my W has the energy to ask for what she may want unless she feels she is pushed into a corner. Then she has the energy to push back. I would never intentionally push her into a corner.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> That’s why I advocate a short time out. If too much time elapses, often you have to start over. Who has the patience for that?! Not I!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Agreed, and I would be open to this. Unfortunately, she would not be open to discussing an argument in the same night (usually). This in itself creates the additional conflict she is apprehensive about.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What area do you think she’ll misunderstand? It is very important that it be clear. What areas do you suspect she might find vague or interpret differently than you do?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I really think that she will agree to this because she feels I am acting that way. However, I do not think she will understand when she is acting this way. If I say, stop, you are hurting me, she will not at this point (example - vacation where I asked to stop way before it got to nuclear melt down). I do not feel she is at a place where she may be willing to take a look at how she is acting towards me and be willing to accept when she is hurting me. This is not a DJ it is based upon this happening time and time again.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I’m confused. What needs to happen if it coasts out of control that is different? For example, that the sign caused a much larger argument doesn’t make that issue more relevant, does it? Hrm. I’m floundering here. Toss me a line. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What I am trying to say hear is that we are both human. As the argument escalates and we both try to "protect" ourselves, we end up hurting the other. It would be much easier for me to see her POV if we stopped before we escalated, I had time to reconsider her POV and then make a decision as to how I feel. As the escalation progresses, the chances of me seeing things more logically vanish in proportion to the time passing. Probably, half of the time that we stop an argument and later come back to it, I could see myself saying something like, "honey, I've thought about what you were saying and you are right. I do not know what I was thinking." I bet after her going through this exercise of agreeing to stop in an argument, but revisit it, she will end up pleasently surprised at the out come. She just need to agree to give it a chance.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Uh huh. *blinks* You left me back at the curve in the road somewhere.

Ok, let me try and puzzle through this. You’re after her recognition that you’re finished discussing something? How would she be able to tell?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, I do not want to leave you standing at the side of the road, so I am doubling back, cutting three people off, driving the wrong way down a one way to get back to you. Here goes, it follows what I was saying just above here. Sometimes I would be realizing that she was either right, or this disagreement was not worth going anyfurther. It is improtant for me to have the ability to reach this conclusion on my own. probably 95% of our really bad arguments end with her doing something to end it, like walking away are sitting there stairing into space and not acknowledging my existence after she has thrown her last jab at me. Her deciding that we are both done is not acceptable to me, even if I happen to be wrong. You should know that I also would not feel comfortable making the decision for her that she was done, because I feel strongly that we are both entitled to resolution in a discussion. Therefore, if we agreed to stop (if she got too uncomfortable), but also agreed to come back to this later, and I was given a chance to realize I was wrong or whatever, then I would handle the entire thing different and she may end up being more satisfied. How do I get us to this point to even get her enthusiastic to even try it? This is the magical question.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You’re not going to like my suggestion. *evil grin*

So, tell me, EL what do you think would happen if you just let her be right?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">To do this, I think I would need the stop and then discuss in the near future technique. During the first heated argument, I am not wired this way and it is increasingly difficult for me. But, if we have a couple of simple rules that we both respect, then I could probably deal with this better.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> - is it because a decision needs to be made in the future (like actually spending money on a golf cart)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sometimes this is the case, but rarely.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> - is it because you’ve determined you did something wrong and want to offer an apology </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sometimes, but do not get the chance, or she is so upset from the argument, it does not really mean anything.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> - is it because you’ve determined that you were right and you want an apology </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is sometimes the case as well and I hold that she will also be able to see this given some time to actually think about what we are talking about instead of feeling like she has to defend herself.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> - is it the level of hurt feelings you experience (small hurts don’t; larger ones do) </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is always the case from one of our circular arguments. I always am left hurting, as is she.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> - Is it the likelihood that the situation will arise again </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sometimes this is the case. I know, if we are talking about how my W has made me feel bad or unloved, I know it will happen again because I am not sure she is not 1) taking me serious; 2) seeing what actions she is doing that I am talking about; 3) has some really bad habits she does not seem she can over come. I think she probably feels the same way. She also has indicated that I bring up the same thing all the time, whether it was about us and fixing our M or SF. You should note, that I have not brought this stuff up in a long time. The only time we have really tried to talk about us or our M has been the MC over the last 3 - 4 weeks.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> - Is it because you STILL can’t understand her perspective but would really like to be able to
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sometimes.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> - Is it because you’re looking for some sort of acknowledgement or validation from her that the situation was <harmful, hurtful, silly, etc> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, at times. Whether it was hurtful for her or for me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Is it because you’re afraid she doesn’t understand your perspective and you’d really like her to be able to
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">At times this is also the case, but I end up giving up because after a while it does not seem worth it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Oooooohhh a challenge! Ok, just for the sake of being a playful devil’s advocate and stretching the bounds of your perception. What if she doesn’t want it back because she sees it as a step on the path to where you are now? Maybe, what she wants is a totally new, sustainable relationship that is NOT GOING backwards – it’s going forwards and leads to a different place.

Yeah, yeah, I know that’s out of context. But you should know better than to toss a statement like that out at me! (I do think I know what you mean. )
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know what I meant here. Speaking in grand terms, I meant, I would hope my W wishes to save our M. I am not arguing the small details of if she desires for it to be how we used to be when all was great, or if there is some new direction she wishes it to go in. I was speaking more on the level of her still wanting me to be a major part of her life and for our M to prosper.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, it is a learned skill. It would be a wonderful, learned skill on BOTH parts. Men can learn to do this, too. One very important part of this, though, is that in order for her to be responsive to this sort of request (thoughtfully expressed) it would be absolutely vital that you be able to listen to and accept her explanation. She’s not going to want to offer an explanation if you’re going to argue with her about why she’s doing something. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is understandable, but extremely one sided in a M, where there are two people with two unique POVs. We should both learn to accept this and work with eachothers POV to find happiness, not against them.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But, it’s worthwhile to know that you wouldn’t leave. Now, the question is, would the relationship really be over in your mind if your partner left?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think it would have been somthing I considered all the way back home. In some situations I would say yes. My first M took me to say it is over. She was playing me like a fiddle while maintaining her Bfriend on the side. Commitment and ones ability to fight for what you want, coupled with staying power and resolve goes a long way in my book. Walking away is the same as "throwing away." It is the same as hanging up on the phone in mid sentence. It is just not what you do. It is the basic respect you would afford a human being you just met. When I feel like I am being treated less than this, this is where My boundaries perk up and I am very defensive. It was a matter of survival in the past.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yeah. I’m thinking about this and trying to brain storm some ideas. The problem, as I see it, has several parts:

1.) How to explain what you want to your MC clearly enough so that she can understand it.
2.) How to present this strategy to your wife in a positive way that does not increase her defensiveness
3.) Building agreement with your W on each element of the strategy to be presented
4.) Building agreement between you and your wife on how to present the strategy to the MC and what to do if your MC is unable or unwilling to provide the strategy (like finding a new MC)
5.) How to react gracefully if your W says “NO” to presenting the strategy to the MC all together or disagrees with specific elements in it.

Did I miss anything?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, you nailed it!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It was my understanding that she stopped? Yes, no, maybe?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">At first, she would not stop, three years ago. It was not until this last April, that I saw her do this again and brought it up. Then she said, she would not do it again if it bothers me. This was back when I knew her email password. Now she has changed it about a month ago and I cannot really check. So I have to take her at her word on this. You know, part of that trust thing I do so well.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yeah, then it’s going to be hard to ask her to stop.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You can say that again.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> When you spend time with other couples, do her interactions with the male half of the couple trigger you, also?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, I watch and learn. The things that bother me is (for example) while we have this SF issue and we had not been intimate almost 8 months, she makes some sexual comment leading the group on that she is into SF. This just really hurts me and sends up flags with my mistrusting past.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And, yes, I think it’s good that she’s opening up to some outside activities. I think that might improve her overall general mood and that will help her find the energy to focus on your marriage. Isolation is a very SERIOUS problem. You don’t want her to suffer from depression.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Been there.

In summary, I need to come up with a way of approaching my W that is acceptable to her. A way that does not turn her off about talking about some rules for conflict. Then we need to agree on them and put them into practice. The funny thing is that I believe, getting her to discuss this openly and agree the rules is going to be the hard part. Following the rules is not going to be as tough.

Thanks,

EL

<small>[ August 30, 2004, 05:13 PM: Message edited by: Extremely Lost ]</small>

Extremely Lost

*grins* Thanks for the loan of your thread.. back on track now.

I’m going to skip down to the really important focus part first.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> In summary, I need to come up with a way of approaching my W that is acceptable to her. A way that does not turn her off about talking about some rules for conflict. Then we need to agree on them and put them into practice. The funny thing is that I believe, getting her to discuss this openly and agree the rules is going to be the hard part. Following the rules is not going to be as tough. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, I think this MC situation really might be an excellent spring board for discussing rules. I’m not sure this is a good time to work on the “stop and start” strategy. Why not concentrate on one thing at a time.

So, the focus right now is building agreement.

What you can build agreement on is that the MC is not going as well as you’d hoped it would. In the past, she’s mentioned that she doesn’t like to go to counseling and then sit there and rehash arguments. You’ve even made some agreements with her ahead of time to avoid specific arguments. What is important is that you are very, very clear about your intentions.


You: Honey, can we talk for a moment?

<assuming she indicates yes>

You: I’ve been thinking about our MC and about something you’ve said in the past. You’ve mentioned that it’s frustrating to go to MC and rehash arguments that we’ve had and I agree. I’m concerned that our MC hasn’t really given us much direction in avoiding these arguments in her office. Do you feel the same way?

<assuming she agrees>

You: I don’t want to stop going to MC because I think it’s important. Do you think we should talk to the MC about how we’d like her to help us in the future? I’d really like to make this as helpful as possible and I agree with you that just going in there to argue isn’t making the best use of the time in there. What do you think?

<assuming she disagrees and doesn’t want the MC to change>

You: Oh? Ok, well thanks for hearing me out.

<assuming she agrees but wants to stop MC>

You: I really don’t want to stop going to the MC, I was just hoping that we could make it more effective. I understand that you aren’t finding it <enjoyable, helpful, whatever she says> and I’m really worried about that. I’d like to work to make it productive if at all possible. I really appreciate you coming with me because I think it has been helpful but that it could be MORE helpful with a slightly different focus.

<keep going until you come to some sort of agreement then… >

You: I’ve been thinking of some ideas but I wanted to give you some time to think of what you think would be the most helpful. Would you be willing to do that? I don’t think we’ll get this figured out before the next appointment but I’d rather not let things go on too long. Can you let me know in the next few days if you have any ideas? Otherwise, I’ll give you my list sometime in the next few days.



I think it is very important that there be a pause between when you initiate this conversation and when you present your proposal. I don’t think, however, that you should wait till then to work on the other portions.

What are your thoughts on that approach? See any warning signs?

Mys

Hey Mys,

Yes, I like your suggestion. My S and I are having a son/daddy evening while my W gets together with the girls in the neighborhood and plays BUNKO. Maybe tonight after she gets back I can have this conversation with her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I don’t think, however, that you should wait till then to work on the other portions. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I did not understand this.

I do not really see any warning signs other than my W's initial tensing up when I ask if we can have a chat.

EL

Hey Mys,

I did not get a good opportunity to discuss the MC with my W yesterday. No I did not chicken out. Basically, my W was gone most of the night at a neighbors house with the women in the neighborhood playing a card game. When she came home, she spent time with my S and I while I finished doing dishes and cleaning up a bit. We went to bed and the bedroom (for the moment) is not the place to start a relationship discussion. You see, the bedroom is where we have had the majority of our large disagreements in the past. Therefore, I decided to try again today.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Actually, I think this MC situation really might be an excellent spring board for discussing rules. I’m not sure this is a good time to work on the “stop and start” strategy. Why not concentrate on one thing at a time.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree that the MC situation may be used to reach a positive agreement with my W. I do not understand why you are getting the feeling that it may not be a good time to work on the "stop and start" strategy. Are you just thinking she will not be open to this even if it is presented in a way that appears nonthreatening to her? I agree with concentrating on one thing at a time.

I do think that I have managed to not really LB or DJ much over the last week. I also think that I have managed to meet her needs as well as I can over the last week. I think she is acting a little better towards me and seems open to some of the things I say (although I have not said anything relationship wise yet).

Usually our MC appointment is Tuesday mornings. I could not make todays appointment so we scheduled it for next Tuesday in our last session. As we discussed different potential times this week for a session, my W was confused and asked me last night if we had an appointment on Thursday. I said, "No, we do not go until next Tuesday." Usually, after such a statement, she would make a negative comment like, "Phew, good. I'll have a good day tomorrow." She did not make any negative comment, or really any comment at all. I was thankful for this, what I took as a small token of peace. I cannot expect her to change her POV towards being enthusiastic, but I can hope she does not put my POV down. So this stuck in my mind from last night. I know it is small, but to me it is big. I hope I am not reading too much into it.

All The Best,

EL

Extremely Lost

Good Morning!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I did not get a good opportunity to discuss the MC with my W yesterday. No I did not chicken out. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Heh. The thought never entered my mind. I’d have figured you were busy or there wasn’t an approachable moment. Waiting until an approachable moment is a wise thing to do.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I agree that the MC situation may be used to reach a positive agreement with my W. I do not understand why you are getting the feeling that it may not be a good time to work on the "stop and start" strategy. Are you just thinking she will not be open to this even if it is presented in a way that appears nonthreatening to her? I agree with concentrating on one thing at a time. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The ONLY reason is that I don’t want too many issues coming up at once. It seems as though the MC issue is a wee bit more timely in that they are scheduled sessions. I just don’t want things to get confused in her mind (or yours… heh.. or mine for that matter) and inadvertently come across as being TOO complicated. Remember, one of the things we’re trying to do is reduce the amount of perceived effort. Keeping it simple seems to be a step towards success.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I do think that I have managed to not really LB or DJ much over the last week. I also think that I have managed to meet her needs as well as I can over the last week. I think she is acting a little better towards me and seems open to some of the things I say (although I have not said anything relationship wise yet). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Excellent.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Usually our MC appointment is Tuesday mornings. I could not make todays appointment so we scheduled it for next Tuesday in our last session. As we discussed different potential times this week for a session, my W was confused and asked me last night if we had an appointment on Thursday. I said, "No, we do not go until next Tuesday." Usually, after such a statement, she would make a negative comment like, "Phew, good. I'll have a good day tomorrow." She did not make any negative comment, or really any comment at all. I was thankful for this, what I took as a small token of peace. I cannot expect her to change her POV towards being enthusiastic, but I can hope she does not put my POV down. So this stuck in my mind from last night. I know it is small, but to me it is big. I hope I am not reading too much into it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, that is a good thing. You might be reading too much into it, though.

If she had said "Phew, good. I'll have a good day tomorrow." I’m not sure why you would interpret that as anything other than an expression of her lack of enthusiasm. It’s not questioning how YOUR day would go, it’s simply reminding you that she does not like MC.

Here is something to consider. Often, when people agree to do something that is difficult or that they aren’t really enthusiastic about on behalf of another person, they want some acknowledgement that they are doing that and they FEAR that if they don’t say something the other person will somehow forget about how they feel. So, these little negative reminders keep coming out. Now, I do realize that they might make you feel bad or guilty but can you reframe it so that it isn’t an attack so much as a request for reassurance that you haven’t forgotten that she’s not enthusiastic about going to MC?

A parallel situation would be your desire for SF. You fear that the longer you don’t bring it up the more ingrained the idea of you being OK with not working on SF will become. If you could bring up the idea of missing SF and get acknowledgement that you’re not happy about it with your wife, it would mean a lot to you. As much as you don’t want to bring it forward as an “attack” on her or with the expectation that she’ll “get right on it” (that was not meant as it sounds tee hee) you WOULD feel better if she was able to not be defensive when you mention it.

How can you work to reassure your wife that you understand her reluctance? Thank her.. give her appreciation.

“I know you don’t like going to MC. It’s been really very helpful to me. I don’t know if I’ve told you lately, but I really appreciate you doing that for me. Thanks.”

Meanwhile, I’ve thought a little about POV’s and wanted to refine a bit what I suggested last night. Specifically I wanted to discuss what to do if you can’t build agreement on what to do. I can see two paths that can take.

She doesn’t agree that you two should talk to the MC about changing the counseling sessions.

Thank her for hearing you out and drop it. I think it is very likely that, if you ask her or not, she will be very likely to tell you WHY she doesn’t want to approach the MC and that would be worthwhile to know (I’d sure be curious about it). BUT, put on your extra special flak jacket because it’s likely to be a POV that you wildly disagree with. It will be vital that you do NOT argue with her. Some of the reasons might include:
- she doesn’t think the MC sessions will work regardless so why bother
- she feels the MC is a professional and is resistant to the idea of ‘asking’ for something different
- she somehow implies that this is a controlling tactic on your part or says something pretty hurtful like “Nothing people do is good enough for you..”

The reason I bring this up is so that you are prepared. I think it is always good to have an escape strategy if things don’t go well. Let’s assume she says something hurtful to you, what kind of responses can you give?


Her: I don’t see why we should bother. MC sessions aren’t going to work anyway. I just don’t see the point of doing that.

You: I understand that you don’t want to do it. I know we don’t agree on the effectiveness of MC sessions and I don’t know if I’ve thanked you lately for coming with me. I’ve found them helpful and would love to make them MORE helpful to me but I will not do this without your consent. Maybe you’d be willing to think about it? If you change your mind, let me know.

--

Her: What do you mean you want to ask her to change? Isn’t she a professional? If she doesn’t know what she’s doing why are we there?!

You: Oh, yes, I know she’s a professional. And, I am willing to follow her guidance and direction. It’s just that she might not realize that we’re getting frustrated with the continuing arguments in her office. For all she knows, maybe that’s what we want to do. I’d just like to bring out to her that I’m trying to stop arguing. It seems that her office is a good place to start.

--

Her: Gah! When is enough, enough for you?! Now you don’t like the way the MC is going about doing things? Is this because we’re not having sex yet? This will never work!

*take a long, deep breath*
You: Yikes! Wow, I really didn’t mean to upset you by asking and I’m sorry that I did. Honestly, it doesn’t have anything to do with our sex life. I’m not trying to put her down in any way at all, I just wonder if she realizes that we both seem frustrated with arguing in her office. If you think this is a terrible idea, then I will not do this without your OK. Maybe you’d be willing to think about it for me? I’d really appreciate it.



She agrees but then has a completely different set of ideas of what she thinks the MC should be doing.

LISTEN! Ask her permission to take notes (“Wow, this is great stuff, do you mind if I grab some paper and write them down so I don’t forget?”) and then pretend you’re interviewing her. This is a cookbook strategy to get her to work on the marriage that she’s volunteering. Take GOOD notes and then bring ‘em here and we’ll see about incorporating them!

EL, I am not bringing up those hurtful responses because I think she’ll react badly. I actually think she’s going to be pretty open to the idea. BUT, I wanted you to see some of the potential hurtful ones HERE so you can pre-think about what you can do in that situation. If you anticipate or are afraid of another “hurtful” response and wish to post it, we can work on finding a good escape for you.

I hope this helps,
Mys