Good Morning Mys,

The only response I think you did not touch upon could be:

Her: "See, even you are realizing that MC is not helping. It is just like the other two Cs who wasted our time. Its stupid to continue and it is making us worse."

Me: "I do know that you are not happy about going to the MC. I have not thanked you recently for doing this. It has really been helpful for me in areas. When we went to the other two Cs we did not agree with them or their tactics, but I also was not as aware of how my actions hurt you. I now understand how some of my actions were causing us problems and with this insght of mine, I believe MC will be very useful for our future. What is important to me is to give this MC a chance. I agree with you that I am not happy just going to MC and rehashing an argument. I feel this is not productive for us and would like to ask the MC if we can try a different approach. I am concerned that you feel going to the MC is making things worse and I would like to understand why you feel this."

What do you think?

EL

Great job! *two thumbs up*

whadda ya need me here for?! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Mys

Mys,

Now come on, you got me here. Don't leave me at the side of the road. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

So what do you think would be a good way to word things to the MC? I know I am counting my chickens and things, but I do not want to drop the ball after getting over this first hurdle.

Do I just say that we would like you to play more of a coaching role with us. Maybe I can give her the example of how I said I felt like one of our issues was that we both had to have the last word blah blah blah. I really want to get this across right as it is going to be critical.

Any help here is appreciated.

Thanks,

EL

I always like the subtle approach. Somethinge like:


"MC Dude... While I appreciate your need to run us through the ringer by making us relive past events right before your eyes, we would really appreciate you helping us to work out a strategy by which we can communicate more effectively without reaching an argument point."

Okay... Now that I've pulled my tongue out of my cheek, I'll continue...

That's approximately what you want to see, right?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Now come on, you got me here. Don't leave me at the side of the road. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Heh. Never! Perish the thought. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

So what do you think would be a good way to word things to the MC? I know I am counting my chickens and things, but I do not want to drop the ball after getting over this first hurdle.

Do I just say that we would like you to play more of a coaching role with us. Maybe I can give her the example of how I said I felt like one of our issues was that we both had to have the last word blah blah blah. I really want to get this across right as it is going to be critical.

Any help here is appreciated.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, I'm thinking hard about it. It not only has to clearly communicate what you want to your counselor ("coaching" is likely to be a bit vague) it also has to pass the wife test. Believe me, I haven't forgotten. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Examples are always good but what's going to make or break the wife test is how much we can center the example on you and then assume the MC will realize it should work both ways.

*ponders*

Touchy touchy... I'll post thoughts as I get 'em.

Mys

How about something like, we need you to offer more guidance and suggestions on how I can understand my W's POV and gain the tools to not shoot my foot off?

or,

We need to understand what your over all approach is because for right now, we both feel like we are doing the same thing at every MC session, and would like to take a progressive step forward. I feel like we are working on a maintenance program where you try to keep a good M from getting off track. I feel we need to get ourselves on track first. We need you to help us learn to do things that will promote a positive and loving M, not just learn to deal with specific conflicts.

Each time we are at a session, I do learn about my W's different POV on the one disagreement we have discussed. However, what I learn does appear to be very situational. I need general rules and processes to move forward. Something that my W can buy into and support as well. So far this MC has given us very simple homework, like tell the other when someone says or does something that hurts. Tell them, "that hurts." Well, OK, but this does not really get us anywhere. How do I outline what I really need from this MC. I find it very difficult to express what I need to the MC in a manner that the MC will understand and participate in, while at the same time my W will also agree with.

I am so confused how to do this. I will try to approach my M tonight on this subject and try to get her agreement on talking to the MC. I will leave it open for discussing what we will say to the MC, but I do need some help from here.

Thanks,

EL

Typically, what you need more than anything is a framework to be able to communicate with each other, without turning things into a conflict.

So... What you really want from the MC is

"a strategy for my W to express her POV to me, without resulting in conflict."

Perhaps?

CTJ,

Yes, in part, but I need to stick more with the "I" statements. Although the way you put it is how I would have put things before, it comes across to her as my saying, "here is another thing my W does wrong. She cannot express her POV to me without causing a conflict." Currently, my W is in some serious withdrawl and is hypersensitive to anything I say. I need to create the enviornment that allows her to come back from this withdrawl.

EL

Yeah... I just reread it. It was terrible.

Maybe

"a strategy that I can use to communicate with my W about her POV without being offensive"

You see, it still is pointing out the problem as "her POV." Where I think it is also her understanding my POV and not feeling threatened by it or having to fight for which POV is correct. Even though I am willing to accept that we have two different POVs and neither are wrong, this does not mean she is ready for this. She is defensive and protective about her POV. I think I need to reword things completely different.

Besides, I already accept that she has a different POV and I am aware of trying to discover it everytime we talk. I am looking for the MC to do much more than what I am already aware of. I need her to lead us to a better M. I do feel the MC may be loosing credibility with my W. If this happens, it is all over with this MCing.

EL

Well... As you or mys said in a post up above, you want to put it in terms of your problem, and then let the MC be smart enough to make it across the board.

I am sure you are learning her POV. I didn't mean to suggest you actually *needed* that help. Actually, a great strategy for you may be to ask for help not doing something that you know is an LB, already, so that she can see the "dramatic" change in your behaviour.

If your W were the type to want the MC involved, what would she ask the MC for?

Extremely Lost

I’m thinking back to my examples and the highlights are:

- you don’t want to rehash old arguments in MC
- You want to learn to build agreement
- You want to make sure that you are using I messages and acknowledging and validating what your wife says


So, it might be something like…


We are concerned that our MC sessions seem to be filled with describing and reliving our old arguments. What would be more helpful is if you can stop our conversation in here any time you can see that we are NOT in agreement or you can tell that we are not using “I” messages or not validating and acknowledging each other. My wife would like to <whatever she asks for>. I’d like to work towards focusing on solutions instead of simply describing what’s wrong to do that I’d like you to help us find some basis for agreement and build from that.


What do you think?


Mys

I am afraid that due to her current withdrawn position, she would say, "I wish he would just not talk about our relationship so much. Everything has to be about our R and how we need to fix it. Everything is fine."

What do you do with this?

She has said this stuff.

Last night we went to bed and she even commented that her shoulders were kind of sore. I immediately offered to give her a message. She declined. I asked, how come you do not take me up on messages (because she has done this about 3 -4 times this month)? She said, they do not help. This upset me because she always told me she felt good from my messages. So, I say, "How come you always tell me that you like my messages then?" She said, "Fine, give me a message if you want." I said, "thats ok, if you do not want one, I do not have to give you one."

To me this makes me feel like she does not want me touching her. Everytime I give her a message, I do not try to take it to the next level. I just give a good message and thats it. So what gives? You see, we need to start moving together and stop moving apart. We need some MC that will push us a little. Maybe a pushy MC will turn her off even further, I do not know.

EL

Sounds good Mys.

I will think about this. - EL

Extremely Lost

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am afraid that due to her current withdrawn position, she would say, "I wish he would just not talk about our relationship so much. Everything has to be about our R and how we need to fix it. Everything is fine."

What do you do with this? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You listen. You acknowledge. Then, you build some agreement.

The first part is listening to the message

Your wife wishes you wouldn’t talk about the marriage so much.

She doesn’t like that everything has to be about the relationship and how you need to fix it.

Everything is fine.

Then you acknowledge.

Did you hear that your wife is tired of talking about the marriage so much? Now that doesn’t mean that you should NEVER talk about the marriage. “So much” is a quantifier. She wants “less” not more or the same.

Did you hear that your wife is tired about everything being about the relationship? How much effort do you put into making things fun? Let work be work (relationship wise) and the rest of the time be down time. Don’t turn every encounter into a lesson. This tells me that there is a huge amount of perceived effort on her part.

Did you hear your wife say everything’s fine? It’s clear to me that you don’t have the same definition of “fine.” Is that clear to you?

Then you build agreement


Honey, I heard you say that you’re tired of talking about the relationship so much. I can certainly understand that feeling. What I am hoping for is to find some way to talk LESS about the relationship but still feel as satisfied. I guess I’m looking for a more efficient way to communicate. What are your thoughts on that?

Honey, I heard you say that you’re tired of always working on the relationship. We do seem to spend a lot of time on that. Maybe if we set aside time when we both agree we are working on the relationship and are really focused on it, I can make every effort to not bring it up outside that time so that you don’t feel we’re always doing it? I do think it’s important for you to feel you get a break … and I need one too. If I was confident that we’d have some time set aside, I’m just sure I’d be less focused ALL the time. What do you think?

Honey, I heard you say everything’s fine. I wish I felt the same way. I’m not fine with the way this marriage is going and that is NOT a reflection on you in any way. I think there are a lot of areas in which things seem a lot harder than they were in the past or than I want them to be and I’m trying so hard to find some way around that. I know I have a lot of work to do in this area. I really appreciate you helping me as much as you have and I’d love to be able to count on your continued support.


*sighs* I just look at this exchange and shake my head.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This upset me because she always told me she felt good from my messages. So, I say, "How come you always tell me that you like my messages then?" </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This was probably not the best response you could have chosen, EL. Remember what I said about recognizing when you’re upset. When you’re upset and you respond from your self talk you are loading and aiming that gun. Stop doing that.

That statement was argumentative. You asked her “why don’t you want a massage.” She said “because it wouldn’t help.” You said “How come you always tell me you like my massages.”

It’s like you weren’t even listening. She didn’t say she didn’t like your massages, she said it wouldn’t help. She didn’t say she didn’t want you to touch her. She said it wouldn’t help.

Listen, validate, then build agreement.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So what gives? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, a different question may have discovered that answer. “How come you ALWAYS tell me…” is not a very good clarifying question because 1.) people tend to bristle at the phrase “you always” or “you never” and 2.) it sounds like a challenge. She either has to argue that she doesn’t say that or … or… or what’s a good response? You’ve backed her into a corner so she put up her hands and surrendered “Fine, give me a massage then…”

If you really wanted to know, proceed more gently and take the DJ’s out of it.

“Oh? I had thought rubbing them might help; are they not sore in that way? Is there anything else I can do to help? Can I get you an aspirin or maybe a heating pad?”

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You see, we need to start moving together and stop moving apart. We need some MC that will push us a little. Maybe a pushy MC will turn her off even further, I do not know. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is hard to say. It might depend on how pushy in what areas. If you can build agreement, I think you’ll be all right.

Mys

Thanks Mys,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The first part is listening to the message

Your wife wishes you wouldn’t talk about the marriage so much.

She doesn’t like that everything has to be about the relationship and how you need to fix it.

Everything is fine.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do this part.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Then you acknowledge.

Did you hear that your wife is tired of talking about the marriage so much? Now that doesn’t mean that you should NEVER talk about the marriage. “So much” is a quantifier. She wants “less” not more or the same.

Did you hear that your wife is tired about everything being about the relationship? How much effort do you put into making things fun? Let work be work (relationship wise) and the rest of the time be down time. Don’t turn every encounter into a lesson. This tells me that there is a huge amount of perceived effort on her part.

Did you hear your wife say everything’s fine? It’s clear to me that you don’t have the same definition of “fine.” Is that clear to you?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This part I am trying to do.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Then you build agreement
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This part I am looking forward to getting down pat.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This was probably not the best response you could have chosen, EL. Remember what I said about recognizing when you’re upset. When you’re upset and you respond from your self talk you are loading and aiming that gun. Stop doing that.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I realized after I said it. It did not cause a big issue with her because our week has been OK.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It’s like you weren’t even listening. She didn’t say she didn’t like your massages, she said it wouldn’t help. She didn’t say she didn’t want you to touch her. She said it wouldn’t help. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know she did not say this, but sometimes it is extremely difficult to take her at her word, when her repetitive actions say the complete opposite.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> “Oh? I had thought rubbing them might help; are they not sore in that way? Is there anything else I can do to help? Can I get you an aspirin or maybe a heating pad?”
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I actually thought about saying something like this, but felt like a wus.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> That is hard to say. It might depend on how pushy in what areas. If you can build agreement, I think you’ll be all right.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hope you are right.

On an aside, I should currently be holding off even thinking about SF at this time, right?

Thanks,

EL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I actually thought about saying something like this, but felt like a wus.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I seem to be missing the boat on this thread, so I'm going to just lurk for a while. Had to respond to this one little bit.

EL, I'll race you to see who becomes the biggest wus. I think that's what it's going to take, in some cases. ;-D

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I know she did not say this, but sometimes it is extremely difficult to take her at her word, when her repetitive actions say the complete opposite. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I’m unsure how you get from point A to point B here. Declining a massage does not directly translate into “Don’t ever lay your hands on me again!” does it? I mean, seriously…

Let’s look at it a different way. If what you wanted was physical touch, why not ask your wife to touch you? It seems like an awfully round-a-bout way of going around things to offer to give her a massage and she’s supposed to understand that means you want physical touch. If you want that, ask to hold her hand or ask her to give YOU a massage. Say what you want and quit expecting her to guess. She’s not getting it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I actually thought about saying something like this, but felt like a wus. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Can you explain why that would make you feel like a wus? (I’m not being facetious, I truly don’t get the connection between that statement and “wussing out”. I expect I’m missing something vital.)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> On an aside, I should currently be holding off even thinking about SF at this time, right? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thinking about it.. uhm.. sure, if you think you can. I doubt you’ll be able to as that seems difficult. I think what I said before was hold off on expecting any significant improvement in that area for a while. Thinking about it, wanting it, desiring it, etc. is normal and natural.

Mys

I don't get the wuss comment either. Your spouse comments she's sore. You offer some potential help. She says that suggestion won't work, and since only she can feel her soreness, she must know. You then say that offering any other help means you are a wuss. I really can't see the connection at all there.

I can easily see how your wife would percieve you as controllling in this situation though. She has a problem, and when she doesn't take your first suggestion you try to pick an argument with her and dig your toes in and decide you won't help in any other way. What gives with that?

OK,

Hold the 2x4s back. I did not explain things properly and am getting nailed for it (as I would expect). <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Over the last couple months my W and I have had two major conflicts: 1) anniversary; 2) our trip. Other than this, we have kept it pretty contained and I think doing well. During this last month, my W has turned me down for four different offers for a backrub. Other than our morning kiss/hug goodbye and our evening kiss/hug hello, this is the only offers I have made for anything physical. Since she has turned me down repeatedly for my giving her a back rub, after she comments to me how she is sore in her back (each time), I do start feeling like she does not want to touch me. I am sorry for this, but it is normal to feel this way. I slipped last night and asked why she did not want a back rub when she said her shoulders were hurting. Her words were, "because it does not do any good." This would bother anybody. This is why I asked, "if the back rubs do not do you any good, how come you've told me in the past that they felt great?" Again, I felt this was a fair question. During all of this time, I did at one point consider offering to help her get her heating pad that was laying on the floor on her side of the bed already. Unfortunately during this discussion, my sensitivities were heightened and I continued to ask for more information instead. She then said, she would just go to the chiropractor in the morning (she goes quite a bit). My mentioning all of this has stirred up controversey on my ultimate care for my spouses over all health and my willingness to help her. Believe me, she would be the first to correct you on this exact subject.

Now - Takes deep breath, rubs bump on head:

Mys -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I’m unsure how you get from point A to point B here. Declining a massage does not directly translate into “Don’t ever lay your hands on me again!” does it? I mean, seriously…
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The back rub was kind of the last type of physical touch that did not bother my W until now for some reason. The repeated rejections of it are what got me from A - B. Just listening to her words does not get me from A - B.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Let’s look at it a different way. If what you wanted was physical touch, why not ask your wife to touch you? It seems like an awfully round-a-bout way of going around things to offer to give her a massage and she’s supposed to understand that means you want physical touch. If you want that, ask to hold her hand or ask her to give YOU a massage. Say what you want and quit expecting her to guess. She’s not getting it.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When this happened, it was brought on from her complaint about her shoulders. I was reading in bed when she said this. My wanting to physically touch her was not on my mind (believe this or not.)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Can you explain why that would make you feel like a wus? (I’m not being facetious, I truly don’t get the connection between that statement and “wussing out”. I expect I’m missing something vital.)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In a man's World (which does not make this right, but it is our World), when a man feels rejected and then forces himself to turn around and please the person who has rejected him, it makes him feel like a Wus. This is because, in his mind he is feeling as though he is being taken advantage of (full on taker coming out).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Thinking about it.. uhm.. sure, if you think you can. I doubt you’ll be able to as that seems difficult. I think what I said before was hold off on expecting any significant improvement in that area for a while. Thinking about it, wanting it, desiring it, etc. is normal and natural.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with your normal and natural comment. What I was meaning was, if I ask, she may go ahaed with it out of "not wanting to disappoint me." With what you know about her, you have the ability to get into her head a little bit (you have been successful with doing this). Therefore, I was asking for your POV about whether you felt this would be detrimental to the over all progress we are slowly making.

Mineownself -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I don't get the wuss comment either. Your spouse comments she's sore. You offer some potential help. She says that suggestion won't work, and since only she can feel her soreness, she must know. You then say that offering any other help means you are a wuss. I really can't see the connection at all there. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is generalizing what happened. Understanding is in the details. I have tried to explain it up top, but still probably not good enough.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I can easily see how your wife would percieve you as controllling in this situation though. She has a problem, and when she doesn't take your first suggestion you try to pick an argument with her and dig your toes in and decide you won't help in any other way. What gives with that? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I did not pick a fight with her. I was asking for more information because I did not understand. However, I could have asked in a way that showed me as a little defensive, or hurt now that I look back on it. I did not refuse to help her in any other way. I just simply did not suggest getting her a heating pad. She said she was fine anyway. I did not dig in, in fact I was pretty passive and asked the one question, felt uncomfortable and then let it go. The old me would have pushed for more. I think I am getting better. She certainly did not seemed bothered by any of this.

Thanks you guys,

EL