Quit offering her ANYTHING! Stay away from her. She does not want or appreciate anything you offer. I would do the 180 at this point. Offering her and sympathizing with her back pain and being sensitive and bringing her a heating pad is not helping.

Does she imply, ever so slightly, that her back pain is due to you?

I would die and go to heaven if my husband offered to me or gave me a backrub. Geeze.

You may have a point here Baba2. I wish she would like the back rub from me. I will give her a little credit though. Last night, she went and played cards with some women in the neighborhood. Afterwork, I stopped by where she was to pick up our S. Usually, we give a kiss and hug when I get home, but the girls were all around and I did not push things. I just got our S and went and had a good time with him. When she got home, she came right up to me and gave me a kiss. I thought this was nice. She certainly did not have to and I was not expecting it. Maybe there is a glimmer of hope before the 180.

Thanks,

EL

The 180 is not mean, cold, or cruel. It is merely a way to act "differently" around your spouse. You are too available, too nice, too helpful.

The 180 is, "if you are doing something and getting negative results (or no results) then do the opposite." - Michele Weiner-Davis

If you offer back rubs and she never wants them or gets irritated, then don't offer anymore.

The 180 is not mean, cold, or cruel. It is merely a way to act "differently" around your spouse. You are too available, too nice, too helpful.

Why thank you Baba2, I think this is the nicest thing you have ever said to me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I am concerned about doing the 180 because I think she will take it as a sign that I have moved on. Her self defense mod, from her childhood would kick in and she would leave. I spent a year being opposite as far as the SF and asking for it or showing interest. I was also colder to her because I was protecting myself. This got me no where and caused me to once again turn to the web. This is when I finally found MB in April and started to realize the things I had done to help cause our situation. Sometimes I do worry about being too nice and being taken for granted. This is part of why I felt like a wus for thinking about offering to get her a heating pad after she rejected the back rub. I am in conflict.

Take care,

EL

You asked her to do the backrubs 4 times, after the first time she said NO, don't ask again.

You can tell her if she wants a backrub anytime to let you know and THEN FORGET ABOUT IT.

You demand her attention by continuing to ask even on different days.

And about her defensive mode and leaving you if you do the 180. Does this mean you have to beg to do the right response all the time with her like a trained dog or she will leave? She will leave if you beg to do too many backrubs, she will leave if you do not ask to do back rubs for her.

It is a no-win situation. You are manipulated by her and her defensive feelings. That would frustrate the heck out of me to have to walk on eggs all the time "or they will leave"....

If that continues very many months I would tend to ask WHERE THE HECK IS THE LOVE?

This is from another thread but it may apply to your marriage too.

"
posted August 31, 2004 06:33 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dan,

I guess I am going to be a contrarian here. I have a true story for you to consider.

I had a friend that worked with Dolphins and he told me this story. It seems they were "training" this dolphin to jump through a hoop, and it would NOT do it. It was by any measure a very smart animal but it would NOT jump through the hoop.

One day as this training was being tried and not working one of the people observed that the person holding the hoop was not holding it truely vertical and suggest that they "square" it up. At that point the dolphin jumped through the hoop.

Now what does this have to do with you? Let's consider the story, who was training who in this story? I am betting on the dolphin.

Who is training who in your marriage? I think you are being trained by your W to endure deprivation of emotions, basic human contact, and when you get some you are so glad that you are willing to ignore that she is manipulating you and does NOT want to have sex with you.

You pay the bills, you work at a high stress job, you take care of things, and you get...what she wants to give you. NOTHING.

Of all of the situations I have responded to on this board and that is thousands of them, your case is one of the few where I would say "walk on". Only other one I would be even stronger on is physical abuse. She is abusing you, she has abused you in the past.

There seems to be NO reason for you to expect that she will change. Yes, eventually she will talk with you again. But, you will do something to tick her off and you will be just where you are now.

It is all your fault and the only way it will NOT be your fault is if you are dead. Unless she underwent serious counceling you are going to get what you get.

Several of the mantra's on this site is "you cannot change another person only yourself" and are needs being met in your marriage?

In your case the only way you will be right is when you are dead right and you will NOT get you needs met. You are not now are you?

Time to really reevaluate what you can expect to get from this relationship and what it will cost you to get it.

I don't know too many people that would put up with what you have, and frankly I am not sure what you are hoping to prove but doing so yourself. There is even a biblical "out" based on your situation. It is called having a "hard heart". She has one.

Please step back and ask yourself what you are doing? Go back to your MC and ask for their opinion of the likelihood of her changing, go to your clergyman/woman and ask the same question.

It is said one has to earn a divorce. I am thinking you need to stop and really evaluate this situation.

God Bless You,

JL
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 8226 | Registered: Aug 99 | IP: Logged

"

I see your wife as being Hard Hearted. And I do not see any change.

*sighs* Oh all right, the backrub is a relatively minor issue. I’m glad it didn’t turn into a major one. I don’t think anyone was questioning your care for your W, instead we were pointing out that it is a DJ to assign motives to your W’s actions. Feel how you feel about the situation (disappointed, etc) but jumping to negative conclusions only hurts you and your W.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I agree with your normal and natural comment. What I was meaning was, if I ask, she may go ahaed with it out of "not wanting to disappoint me." With what you know about her, you have the ability to get into her head a little bit (you have been successful with doing this). Therefore, I was asking for your POV about whether you felt this would be detrimental to the over all progress we are slowly making. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, asking in a respectful way isn’t likely to cause any damage. I don’t think you need to worry about doing damage if she accepts your offer. If she does, it is likely something that she’s doing in recognition of wanting to work towards making the marriage better. For many women (or at least in MY experience) the longer I go without physical passion the less I miss it. But, that does not mean that I actively don’t want intimacy. There’s a big difference between not really missing it and actively wanting to avoid it. One is a normal, natural bodily rhythm the other is something else. You see the difference?

From everything you’ve said, if your wife is not ready for intimacy, I don’t think you have to worry about her saying yes. If she says “yes” then I think you’re safe to draw the conclusion that she’s doing it for the “right” reasons. She doesn’t seem easily intimidated into just giving in on the actual act of intimacy for the sake of keeping the peace or not disappointing you.

So, if you can ask nicely, then I’d say go ahead and ask. BUT, are you prepared for her to say “No?” And, if she does, are you going to allow yourself to indulge in DJ’s? I’m not talking about feeling disappointment. Disappointment is perfectly natural. I mean deciding that “means something” particularly if that casts your wife in a negative light. You all ready know that your relationship is not where you want it to be so what I mean is don’t read into it that things are getting worse or that things aren’t getting any better at all (they are getting better just not better enough yet).

If your purpose is to respectfully ask for your needs to be met, then I’d say go ahead. If this is some sort of “test” you’re setting her up for, I’d like to suggest you refrain. Do you have enough self control to not damage the situation by jumping to negative conclusions if things don’t work out? Mmmmmm? (I think you can, I really do. But, I’d like YOU to be sure you know what’s at stake.)

Mys

Hello gals,

Baba2 - Thanks for the insight. I am not ready to write my W off yet.

Myschae - Thanks for your insight on asking for SF right now, I understand what you mean to be prepared and have self control depending on the answer.

Last night, I got home and my W walks up to me and says, "My left shoulder is still hurting from yesterday." I said, "I will still give you a message if you would like." She said, "No." I left it at that for a while. Later on in the evening, I said, "Honey, I know you said that you did not want me to give you a message, but I was wondering if there was anything else I could possibly do to help your pain?" It was interesting because I think this statement caught her by surprise. The look on her face was quite different. She seemed happy and then said, "Can we watch TV in bed tonight so I can use the heating pad?" I said, "sure." I left it at that.

Maybe I scored some points here because I think she expected me to question her or complain because she did not want a message from me. It was a notable difference to how she would react to things I've said in the past.

Thanks,

EL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">*sighs* Oh all right, the backrub is a relatively minor issue. I’m glad it didn’t turn into a major one. I don’t think anyone was questioning your care for your W, instead we were pointing out that it is a DJ to assign motives to your W’s actions. Feel how you feel about the situation (disappointed, etc) but jumping to negative conclusions only hurts you and your W. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with this statement. And it is those actions/reactions of EL's that I think are being overlooked. She explains the backrub won't help ... he extracts things like; she rejects physically touching him and some other statement about how things are in a Man's world(power struggle).

EL you let your thoughts get the best of you. You build resentment from something that really isn't even there. Something as relatively small as rejecting a back rub leads you to believe it has something to do with her rejecting you and 'forcing' you to act in a less than chavionistic way.

Here is a prime example where you should work on a stop/start technique. Only this technique is something you use on yourself to improve your thought pattern.

I have a technique that I use to help me in these situations. I don't have time to explain it right now but I'll drag up the post on MB where I listed it before. It may be something that would help you.

Hi Extremely lost!

I don't jump on to your thread much, but I do read it.

And I just wanted to say WAY TO GO on implementing Myschae's helpful suggestion about how to try and help your wife.

I'm SOOO glad you offered to help her in another way, and that this seemed to make her happy.

Additionally, I think it says something that you and your wife hug and kiss goodmorning and goodnight. Seriously. For some of us, this would be HUGE.

Keep working on stuff--and I can't wait to see what MyAlias has to say about the whole controlling his thoughts, thing.

Hello MyAlias,

You make a good point and I have become aware of this. I am trying. You see, last night, right after she rejected the back rub again, I had to fight myself internally to not ask why are you rejecting my offer for a back rub, again? One of the reasons this becomes a struggle is that I think it is fair to be given an answer as to why someone is rejecting you (whatever is being rejected). However, I fought this desire for an answer and reacted differently and it caused a dramaticly different result from my W.

Thanks,

EL

EL--

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Last night, I got home and my W walks up to me and says, "My left shoulder is still hurting from yesterday." I said, "I will still give you a message if you would like." She said, "No." I left it at that for a while. Later on in the evening, I said, "Honey, I know you said that you did not want me to give you a message, but I was wondering if there was anything else I could possibly do to help your pain?" It was interesting because I think this statement caught her by surprise. The look on her face was quite different. She seemed happy and then said, "Can we watch TV in bed tonight so I can use the heating pad?" I said, "sure." I left it at that.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is *so* huge for you. I'm almost positive you scored some points.

Look at the ways you loved her here:

1. You listened to her pain and didn't judge it ("If you had let me give you a back rub, it might night be so bad!")

2. You listened to her perspective when she didn't want it, without arguing her perspective. ("But, I'm sure the back-rub would help.")

3. You moved past the rejection to focus on *her* need, rather then focussing on your own disappointment. ("Well, if that's the way you want it.")

4. You were gracious and provided care for her sore shoulder, rather than apathy. ("That's too bad.")

Now *that's* the way to do it. :-D

Hey Telly,

Thanks for jumping in. I am happy to see you guys jump in an offer your thoughts.

Thanks for the support,

EL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You make a good point and I have become aware of this. I am trying. You see, last night, right after she rejected the back rub again, I had to fight myself internally to not ask why are you rejecting my offer for a back rub, again? One of the reasons this becomes a struggle is that I think it is fair to be given an answer as to why someone is rejecting you (whatever is being rejected). However, I fought this desire for an answer and reacted differently and it caused a dramaticly different result from my W.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">EL --

I totally understand this sentiment. I, also, feel it is reasonable and *important* to understand the why's and wherefore's. That way I know how to treat my W better.

However, your W could be like my W, in that she processes things slowly enough that she's not sure of the "why" and so has a hard time answering.

She could have a communications problem, where she understands why, but can't tell you.

Or, (most likely, I think) she's not ready to communicate emotionally and explain her reasoning.

The other thing to be careful in this situation is that if you question too closely it looks like a DJ to the other person.

They are sitting there thinking, "Why *shouldn't* I *not* want a backrub? Can't he just take no, without pestering me? Why does he have to question my judgement about whether *I* want a backrub or not?"

Hey CTJ,

Thanks for the kind support.

EL

CTJ,

We keep cross posting here.

Anyway, you are right. If I would have pestered her for an explanation it would have been, "I don't know." This would have gotten both of us more frustrated. I think some of her not answering these things is that she is still healing from the feeling that what ever she does is not right or good enough in my mind. For right now she is completely disconnected from understanding how/what she says effects me. She is only thinking of herself here. I am not saying she is a selfish person. I am saying she is in a selfish mode from her defenses beign hypersensitive from the way we both used to interact with eachother. Maybe showing her she can say no and it means no without conflict, she can build on this to actually choose yes sometimes and feel like she is in control. Ultimately, I do believe that true control is an illusion and is never achievable anyway. We'll see.

Take Care,

EL

EL --

Hah! I waited this time!

I think that if you can show her that you respect and value her opinion, even when you don't "get it", particularly in areas that are primarily her desires ("I don't want a back rub.") she will warm up to things a lot better.

At some points in our lives, the equation boils down to:

"If he loved me, he wouldn't care *why* I want X, he would just respect that I want it."

I don't know if that's a fully true/fair equation. But, I know that it's a way you *can* live until she's at a point when she can start communicating with you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">One of the reasons this becomes a struggle is that I think it is fair to be given an answer as to why someone is rejecting you (whatever is being rejected). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Be careful with this thought. Just because you think it's FAIR doesn't mean she feels the same way. Nor should she have to. There aren't a bunch of rules defined that state what is fair and what isn't fair especially when it comes to small conflicts like "Explaining why one would decline a backrub". I see you having a level expectation based on what you think is fair (your rules) and when she doesn't satisfy your rules you begin to build resentments or, at the very least, start making assumptions to help explain the reasons why she doesn't provide an explanation.

EL, I would have accepted her explanation of 'The back run won't help' and I would have left it at that.

Kudos to you for offering something else later!

CTJ -

I waited too!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think that if you can show her that you respect and value her opinion, even when you don't "get it", particularly in areas that are primarily her desires ("I don't want a back rub.") she will warm up to things a lot better. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is my hope.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> At some points in our lives, the equation boils down to:

"If he loved me, he wouldn't care *why* I want X, he would just respect that I want it."

I don't know if that's a fully true/fair equation. But, I know that it's a way you *can* live until she's at a point when she can start communicating with you.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with what you are saying, but at some point it needs to be a two way street. This cannot be our mantra for life.

MyAlias -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Be careful with this thought. Just because you think it's FAIR doesn't mean she feels the same way. Nor should she have to. There aren't a bunch of rules defined that state what is fair and what isn't fair especially when it comes to small conflicts like "Explaining why one would decline a backrub". I see you having a level expectation based on what you think is fair (your rules) and when she doesn't satisfy your rules you begin to build resentments or, at the very least, start making assumptions to help explain the reasons why she doesn't provide an explanation. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This statement is fair enough and your point is well taken. As my W and I are currently at different stages in this M, her rules for fairness are different to mine. Eventually, these fairness rules should become pretty similar (as they were in the beginning), because we would be looking out for eachother's feelings more.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> EL, I would have accepted her explanation of 'The back run won't help' and I would have left it at that.

Kudos to you for offering something else later!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for the support!

Take care,

EL