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I'm with SugarCane.
My WH spend every major celebration during his A days not with me. My birthday, Valentine's, nearly missed Christmas. He even had a dirty weekend date with the Dolly instead of joining me for our wedding anniversary, even after I told hi. How very important it was to me. Now I would be horribly offended if he has ANY reason not to spend special days with me.
So KISS, make this one a really special day for the two of you!! I appreciate that there is a difference between what you are describing, catwhit, and what is happening here. Kiss is not the one asking to spend time away; his BW is the one who wants to do so, and who is resentful that her recent WS is asking her not to go. I'm suggesting that it is a good thing that Kiss doesn't want her to do something that is not good for the marriage or its recovery - and that it is not a "pity party" for either spouse to want to special occasions to be theirs and theirs alone.
BW
Married 1989
His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
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KISS
Good for you for telling her. But you MUST try to see it from her POV. This is a milestone birthday and she had a wonderful oppty to celebrate it. Perhaps she also thought of it as a way to make a fresh start and move on from a horrible year. Of course she's disappointed and resentful. She'd be superhuman if she wasn't!!
There is still too much focus on "me". You need to get cracking on how to make this bday as special as possible. Stop the pity party!
GET MOVING!!! I disagree with this. If my H wanted to spend any birthday, let alone a "milestone birthday" with anyone but me I'd be ANGRY and PISSED and hurt. It does not make any difference that the wayward and betrayed positions are reversed in my imaginary scenario (he, the FWS, would be wanting to go; for Kiss and RQ it is the BS who wants to go). Kiss has not long finished being involved with another woman, and rather than being indifferent to what RQ does on a special birthday, he is jealous about spending time with her. RQ's "wonderful opportunity" for a holiday needs to be an opportunity for her and Kiss to be together, not for her to be away with her mother and daughter. Apart from honesty and openness, the one thing that a BW wants more than anything is proof that her H does not love OW still, and that he never lost his feelings for his wife. Even better is that those feelings are stronger and deeper in the light of nearly having lost her (me). It is agony to think about what OW meant to him. Here is Kiss expressing a desire for his wife to spend a special occasion with him, and not to go away and leave him. That could be interpreted as an expression of the love the BW wishes her H still felt. Instead his disappointment is being interpreted as a "pity party". I'm a bit shocked at that. Well, I disagree with you. I think some of KISS's reactions as detailed in his post are counterproductive to their Recovery. I did not say that his disappointment was engaging in a pity party. But, IMO, his post upthread DID. To wit: I AM NOW THE BAD GUY!!! I REALLY WISH I NEVER SAID ANYTHING!! I SHOULD HAVE KEPT IT TO MY SELF LIKE I ALWAYS HAVE!! KISS and RQ are both partners in this marriage, but to pretend that they are in the exact same situation given KISS's recent infidelity and lack of care for RQ is simply not realistic. Does KISS want to be right? Or does he want to be married? Frankly, I have read FAR more harsh reactions to WS, and indeed, to KISS on this very thread! So I am a bit mystified why my rather mild chiding of him would be so "shocking."
Last edited by kerala; 01/27/13 02:34 PM. Reason: change order
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KISS
Good for you for telling her. But you MUST try to see it from her POV. This is a milestone birthday and she had a wonderful oppty to celebrate it. Perhaps she also thought of it as a way to make a fresh start and move on from a horrible year. Of course she's disappointed and resentful. She'd be superhuman if she wasn't!!
Stop the pity party! The POV that must be seen is Dr Harley's CORRECT view that separate vacations are bad for marriages. What a crazy thing to do at such a fragile time in their recovery. That wouldn't be a fresh start, but a BAD START. He was absolutely correct in telling her how unhappy he is about this and I am baffled why this is being called a "pity party?" Why add insult to injury?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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IMO aspects of his post above certainly were engaging in a pity party.
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KISS
Good for you for telling her. But you MUST try to see it from her POV. This is a milestone birthday and she had a wonderful oppty to celebrate it. Perhaps she also thought of it as a way to make a fresh start and move on from a horrible year. Of course she's disappointed and resentful. She'd be superhuman if she wasn't!!
Stop the pity party! The POV that must be seen is Dr Harley's CORRECT view that separate vacations are bad for marriages. What a crazy thing to do at such a fragile time in their recovery. That wouldn't be a fresh start, but a BAD START. He was absolutely correct in telling her how unhappy he is about this and I am baffled why this is being called a "pity party?" Why add insult to injury? Gotcha! I did not realize that KISS should not try to understand RQ's pov when she is clearly upset about something. It's not like I have ever seen that proposed over and over to wayward spouses. Oh, and I never disputed that the separate vacation cannot happen.
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Well, I disagree with you. I think some of KISS's reactions as detailed in his post are counterproductive to their Recovery. What is counterproductive is the suggestion of separate vacations and then putting Kiss down when he objects. To wit: I AM NOW THE BAD GUY!!! I REALLY WISH I NEVER SAID ANYTHING!! I SHOULD HAVE KEPT IT TO MY SELF LIKE I ALWAYS HAVE!! You must be kidding? He was disrespected by RQ by planning a vacation without him and then put down for expressing his unhappiness. And now you accuse him of having a "pity party" because he objects?  Are you kidding me? If RQ had followed the program in the FIRST PLACE none of this would have happened. But putting down kiss for objecting is to add insult to injury and makes me think you have a strange double standard for men versus women. Does KISS want to be right? Or does he want to be married?[/quotee]
It looks to me like he wants to be married since HE IS FOLLOWING THE MARRIAGE BUILDERS PROGRAM.
[quote]
KISS and RQ are both partners in this marriage, but to pretend that they are in the exact same situation given KISS's recent infidelity and lack of care for RQ is simply not realistic. And you are unrealistic if you think that good marriage building practices don't apply to both partners. These principles are not some kind of perpetual punishment that apply only to a former wayward. The fact that RQ is a BS does not entitle her to gain at his expense. That is not how good marriages are created, and that is the goal here.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Gotcha! I did not realize that KISS should not try to understand RQ's pov when she is clearly upset about something. It's not like I have ever seen that proposed over and over to wayward spouses. What in the world is there to "understand?" That she is violating the policy of joint agreement? I think he gets that!
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Right. So, basically all KISS needs to do now is tell her she is violating POJA.
Ok.
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Right. So, basically all KISS needs to do now is tell her she is violating POJA.
Ok. Basically all Rocketqueen needs to do is follow the program. And she can apologize to kiss for her behavior, especially for throwing him under the bus to her mother when he expressed his unhappiness about the trip. Women CAN be accountable, wouldn't you agree?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Does KISS want to be right? Or does he want to be married? This has always struck me as a silly question. There is no point being unhappily married. The goal is not to be either "right" or "married"; the goal is to be happily married. That won't be achieved if one spouse appeases the other.
BW
Married 1989
His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
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[quote=SugarCane]KISS and RQ are both partners in this marriage, but to pretend that they are in the exact same situation given KISS's recent infidelity and lack of care for RQ is simply not realistic. So now he is demonstrating care for both RQ and the marriage by wanting to spend a "milestone birthday" with her. I hate tit-for-tat posts. They accomplish nothing.
BW
Married 1989
His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
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kerala, old chum, at the risk of yet again, as on Christmas Day, having you wish, hope, or pray, for something awful to happen to me ![[Linked Image from planetsmilies.com]](http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/fighting/fighting0079.gif) , I'm going to remind you that the MB principles, once recovery is well under way, apply to both spouses equally. The BEST way to ensure that there will be destabilizing cracks in the foundation of their marriage is for the FWS to retain indefinitely the status of a silent, if resentful, junior partner in that marriage. RQ owed HER MARRIAGE (note: not "kiss") the duty to fully explore and discuss the vacation opportunity with him, and the burden for securing the joint "enthusiastic agreement" lay on her. I get that this is probably new to both of them, and certainly NOT the way their relationship operated previously, but on this item, in early 2013, she failed to get that enthusiastic agreement required.
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I agree she shouldn't go because it isn't agreed upon. By going she is saying I would rather be with other people. Even if its is family. RQ could of said I would rather spend my time with my husband by telling her mother kiss doesn't want to go she is basically saying "I would like to go but my husband is being mean and doesn't want me to"
Last edited by TranquilDark; 01/27/13 07:42 PM.
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Thanks for the positive reinforcement. It definitely helps.
I know that saying something was the right thing to do but I still wonder if I should have brought it up. When RQ and I discuss it now I get a lot of double talk and I feel a heavy guilt for saying how I feel. I don't see anything good coming out of telling her how I feel. Yes I spoke up and told her I wasn't happy about it( I have always kept my view on touchy subjects to my self in the past) but I will not benefit from doing so. I have been told that she will not go because I " don't want her to go". I told her that I am not crazy about her going away with out me but if it was a different week other then her Birthday I could deal with it. Then she will tell me how disappointed she is. Then she says that all the pressure i s on me now because its a "big birthday". Then two seconds later she tells me to her birthdays aren't that important and its not a big deal.
So now I feel that she will not be happy if she doesn't go or if she does she will feel guilty. That's actually what she told me. So yes the pressure is on me. I can't win.
KISS
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Are you being radically honest without using disrepectful judgements? I could see how it could easily spiral out of control if that's the case. Maybe one of the senior posters could come up with some text of how you could have both POJA'd the issue.
Me BW: 30
WH: 33
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Kerala,
I am not sure of your point of view. So am I not supposed to let my wife know how I feel? What exactly did I do wrong? Should I be the beaten dog spouse and just deal with it? She asked me how I felt about it I told her and she did nothing with it! I don't know anything about you but if your spouse did the same to you would you be o.k. with it? Do you implement MB concepts like POJA? Or do you pick and choose when to follow certain concepts that fit you best? I just don't get what direction you are going and what benefit this thinking would bring to my marriage or yours.
KISS
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BetrayedP,
We did POJA the issue. She decided not to talk to her mother about what we discussed and I feel that the discussion did nothing but really never happen because she really didn't care about what I had to say and now because of that it has grown into a no win situation. I really wish I didn't say anything. This is why I haven't spoke out in the past because I get the bad guy treatment for saying how I felt about an issue.
Their was no disrespectful judgments. She did bring up that I was throwing MB in her face because I questioned her on POJA. I did not due it disrespectfully I just questioned her on the policy of joint agreement. It just seems like I am the one that has to be following the program because yes I screwed up majorly. It won't work if its just me.
KISS
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The toughest thing right now is RQ has her wall up. Here comes the im not getting close to him / I don't want to be near him treatment . Very familiar situation!!! The only show of affection or closeness has been and will be by me. Tired of the im mad so I don't want to be close to you treatment. I just keep trying to put it behind us. I am trying to forget that it happened but her distance makes it hard. Any ideas?
KISS
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Thanks for the positive reinforcement. It definitely helps.
I know that saying something was the right thing to do but I still wonder if I should have brought it up. When RQ and I discuss it now I get a lot of double talk and I feel a heavy guilt for saying how I feel. I don't see anything good coming out of telling her how I feel. Yes I spoke up and told her I wasn't happy about it( I have always kept my view on touchy subjects to my self in the past) but I will not benefit from doing so. I have been told that she will not go because I " don't want her to go". I told her that I am not crazy about her going away with out me but if it was a different week other then her Birthday I could deal with it. Then she will tell me how disappointed she is. Then she says that all the pressure i s on me now because its a "big birthday". Then two seconds later she tells me to her birthdays aren't that important and its not a big deal.
So now I feel that she will not be happy if she doesn't go or if she does she will feel guilty. That's actually what she told me. So yes the pressure is on me. I can't win.
KISS You, absolutely, did the right thing by letting RQ know about your feelings on the subject. With the reaction that you got, I can certainly understand how you'd be a bit hesitant to open up again. I'd just have a sit down and say Look, this has all turned into a big mess and I don't want this to drive a wedge into our marriage. Let's figure out a way to put this behind us... And plan something for her birthday, too.
Me (BH)
FWW
Married 2000, DS 8, DD 6, DD 2
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The toughest thing right now is RQ has her wall up. Here comes the im not getting close to him / I don't want to be near him treatment . Very familiar situation!!! The only show of affection or closeness has been and will be by me. Tired of the im mad so I don't want to be close to you treatment. I just keep trying to put it behind us. I am trying to forget that it happened but her distance makes it hard. Any ideas?
KISS Ignoring the elephant in the room never works very well. For me and my wife, addressing, with some humor, that there is an elephant goes a long way to breaking the ice.
Me (BH)
FWW
Married 2000, DS 8, DD 6, DD 2
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