</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Therefore, if my W says something that I feel is insensitive to me, and am hurt by it (we cannot change how we feel from something, only the way we react to the hurt), is she not LBing? I think this gets confusing. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course, but I think the question is what is truly insensitive and what is you misinterpreting her statements (probably brought on in part by her not being careful how she phrases things).

If she call you a big pile of crap well then you know where's she's coming from. But when you described the talk you had I didn't think she said anything insensitive. In fact, I really saw your thought pattern as being a little insensitive. I would have thought, based on what I know of you, you would have recognized her statements as being strictly about herself and how she was stressed out, tired, frustrated, etc. Why did you go there? Is it part of that power struggle, got-to-win R you two have? This is a good example of a situation where you could stop and ask yourself: Man why do I do that? What is that all about?

If my W would have made those statements to me I would have recognized that she was frustrated. Of course I would have taken the wrong approach also(at least before I got smart) and tried to fix the problem. Sometimes (and I do this to) we just need to have someone listen to us. Not fix our problems but just let us communicate how we're frustrated, mad, at our wits end, etc.

I do a much better job now of stopping myself from trying to go right to a solution for my W and spend that time listening to what she's saying. Once she's done and then she looks at me and stops and I know she's finished, then I ask if she would like me to help her fix it. I don't plow right in there with my solution. Sorry that was a seguay(sp?) into my world.

Speaking of stopping ourselves. I never got around to explaining my technique for helping me promote change.

First the steps in the technique.
1) Stop
2) Look
3) Choose
4) Vote
5) Do it
6) Step Left

I know that last part seems weird but I'll explain.

Step 1). Stop. Whenever you feel your in a situation where's something's not quite right... that you're getting irritated or you're feeling sorry for yourself or you're <whatever> then just stop your current train of thought. How about when you feel yourself in a situation that could, let's say, begin an argument. Before you say the first thing that pops into your head.... STOP.

Step 2). Look. Analyze how you were going to react and say to yourself 'Is my reaction creating a working environment for everyone involved.' This is a time where I really try to focus on putting myself in the other person's shoes. I try to forget about what I want or what I need and think about the other person.

Step 3). Choose. If the answer to your analysis was 'No' or 'Probably Not' then Choose to do something else. Think of a different way to react.

Step 4). Vote. Make a decision on what it is that you are going to do differently.

Step 5). Do it. Well that's self explanatory.

Step 6). Step left. That simply means that if Do it lead to a more working solution for everyone then step left. Move on to the next situation.

For me if I can get to step 3 then I usually can create a pretty decent working solution. The hardest part is Step 1. Stopping. It's so hard and so uncomfortable to try something different.

I'm not sure if a technique is needed for everyone but for me it worked. If I have a plan I can execute it. Give me a set of instructions and I'm off building. So, for me, this technique was the catalyst I needed to start introducing change in my behavior and in my life.

Hmm, I see you reporting a lot of statements by your wife that she has more than she can quite handle.

By the way, that's how I read her letting you know when her shoulder is hurting -- she's giving you information about her status at that time. If pain is added to her plate, something else is going to get bumped off. She's letting you know she has a bandwidth problem.

She seems to be making statements like this a lot. It makes me suspect that she knows she can't handle fully everything on her plate right now, and something has to get bumped or given short shrift, and she'd probably like some input from you on what gets priority. Note that doesn't mean that you get to decide or what you think should be her order of priorities will be, but she probably is interested in your point of view and is probably making some of her choices based on what she thinks is important to you.

It sounds like the two of you don't get much couple time that doesn't involve working on the house. Is there anyway you can cut back on the house projects for a while? And I know you've said you have problems cutting back at work, but I think you need to re-examine that.

Look at it this way. By MB principles you need at least 15 hours a week of giving your undivided attention to your wife, and that's when your marriage is humming along happily. When you're having problems, you need more. You also need time with your child and with the three of you as a family. Are you getting all that in right now?

Or does your work schedule get in the way? I know you said you've had problems figuring out how to delegate some of the work so the business doesn't suffer when you work less. But think about this: Is your business more important than your family? Than your marriage?

What I'm trying to get at is I think you're using a backwards process to budget your time. You're doing what you have to do to get your business taken care of and then doing as much as you can with everything else with what's left over. If your business is the most important thing in your life, to the point that you would save it over saving your marriage, this is appropriate. If your marriage and family are more important than your business, you need to reserve time to your marriage first, then to your family as a whole including one-on-one time with your child, THEN the business can have what's left over.

I agree with MOS here (hi!).

Sounds like she is feeling overwhemed with everything that's happening.

Now....

Before you jump in with "her plate's full?! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ... Mine's full too - maybe even moreso!"

Think of it this way... you and her are sharing a plate. Your marital plate. (i'm loving this anlogy already). If she thinks it's full, and you think it's full... then well it's time to cut back somewhere for the sake of the M.

But you have to do it as a team. Let's say you picked out the roast and the peas. She picked out the bun (in the oven - HA!) and the mashed potatoes. But there isn't enough room for the dessert that you both want. Well - something's gotta go. And it might mean you lose your peas so she can have pudding. And you might like peas and that might be hard - but since you only get one plate for your M, someone's gotta give. And maybe that means your wife would be willing to have 1/2 as many mashed potatoes so you can have your brownie. But you have to work together - and think about it as ONE PLATE.

Mutuality. Sharing. Working together. ONE team.

*off to have lunch. YUM*

lfc

Hello everyone,

Well I am in a very confused state right now. I will write all about the major points from this weekend and the MC session this morning. Please give me yout POV and recomendations, thoughts, whatever. The only thing I know for sure is that I am confused about how I feel or where I go from here. I apologize for the length ahead of time, I will try to be as fair as I can with my descriptions and my W's comments.

As I left you all Thursday night, I was headed home and had taken Friday off to finish the tiling of our patio (which the construction of the entire patio has been going on for 1.5 months and was one of the major things causing my W stress). It was supposed to not rain on Friday, but it was supposed to rain on Saturday through Monday). Friday morning I setup everything and begin work on the patio. It starts to rain around 9:00 AM. Frustrated I cover things and head inside for the rain to blow over. At 9:30 AM the phone rings and it is my W's sister-in-law. She called to tell my W that they had decided to come down to visit for the weekend and would be down this evening. This is dissapointing to me because I had four days of no plans and was off work the entire time. I was looking forward to the family time and the one on one with my W. My W asked me if it was OK while they were on the phone and I said, "Its up to you." Our S loves it when his 6 and 4 year old cousins come to visit and play. They problem is that the parents (my W's brother) are quite young and do not discipline their childeren well. So anyway, we get through Saturday and the family leaves on Sunday (they originally were going to stay through Monday, but this is a different story and we both really still do not understand why they chose to leave early).

Anyway, during Sunday morning, my W goes on her email account and mentions to me that a friend of hers is getting married. We both know this guy and are happy he has found someone. This guy was a friend of my W's when we had met and falls into the catagory of her previous guy friends. I know they never dated nor was there ever a desire on her end. She replied to his email and signed it "Love." This really hurt me because we had reached an agreement this past April that she would not sign her emails like this because it hurt me. She said, "you were right there and saw me do it." I said, "I am still hurt because this is a personal boundary for me and it really hurts me because I do not agree with signing off in an affectionate or loving way if it is anyone other than family." She said, "You are insecure and are making me pay for your past." I said, "No. you are not paying for my past. This is a personal boundary of mine that I am not comfortable having it crossed." She said, "Fine, I will never do it again. You tell me who I can email and what I am supposed to write. I do not even want my email account anymore." I said, "Look, this is getting off topic because I am just trying to let you know that it hurts me when you sign 'Love,' we had previously reached an agreement that you would not do this because you realized how much this hurt me, and now I feel hurt because our agreement seemed to not mean very much." She said, "Its settled, I won't do it anymore." She said, "Let it drop!" So I let it drop and went on with doing something else. Five minutes later she says, "It is settled and I won't write my friends anymore." I did not respond because I would have been accused of not letting it drop.

The rest of Sunday was better and we did some things together around the house. In the evening I asked my W if she wanted to do something this evening. She said, "I don't know, what do you want to do?" I said, "I don't know, how about inviting a couple over?" She said, "OK." So I called one of our neighbors and his W answered. She said that the guys were getting together to play some cards tonight. I mentioned this to my W and she said, "go play cards if you would like, I'll have some of the girls over and have some wine." So I went and played cards and she had the girls over. The night went pretty well. When I came home, the girls were still over and my W was mentioning how the a couple of the girls were trying to get her to do something (that I did not really think was a big deal), and she told them that I would be mad at her. They told her to not tell me and she said no, because she would hear about it the next couple of days. This made me feel pretty bad because it was not true and is part of my W not letting go of the past and allowing our R to change because I have changed. I said to her, "I would not react that way anymore." She said, "Yeah, right!" I left it like that.

We get up to bed and I ask for SF. She says, "I am not in the mood." I said, "OK." Then I said, "would it be alright to cuddle for a little bit?" She said, "No. Can we cuddle in the morning?" I said, "OK."

Well, for some strange reason, I wake up at 6:45 AM and cannot get back to sleep. I stay in bed, awaiting our opportunity to cuddle. Our S wakes up and comes into the room. I set him up with cartoons and leave him happy in front of the TV. I get back into bed and wait. My W wakes up at 9:00 AM and says, "we can cuddle now if you want," and rolls ove with her back to me. This bothered me a little, kind of like I am here if you want to put your arm around me, but I am not putting any effort in. I move over to her and put my arm around her and 10 seconds later she says, "we need to move because my back is hurting." I rolled onto my back and away from her. She says, "I just needed to move, why are you mad now?" I was not mad, all I did was move out of her way. I told her I was not mad and just moved to give her room. Then I said, "you could come by me." She says, "It hurts my neck to lay my head on your shoulder/chest." This is part of the problem, apparently there is no comfortable way for my W to cuddle with anyone, which I find rediculous. She puts her head on my shoulder for 60 seconds and the we get up. I am pretty dissapointed, but I do not say anything. I am hurt from yesterday because of the boundary thing, I am hurt from her not giving the new me a chance to react to something, I am hurt from her rejecting SF and I am hurt from the whole poor cuddling attempt on her end. I get out of bed and say, "Thanks for remembering to cuddle this morning." She said, "Your welcome." I got dressed and went downstairs. My W and S end up following and she says, "where are you going?" I said, "I am not in a good mood and I need to go for a drive, so I was going to pickup breakfast for everyone." Then I left. I brought breakfast back and remained in a bad mood all day. My W could tell I was not happy and even mentioned that I was in a bad mood. When I was getting dressed, I even took my wedding ring off in my own form of a little protest. I still have it off and do not think she has even noticed.

We worked around the house during the day and had a cookout to go to in the evening. My W asked about my picking up some drinks for the cookout and I said I would. I went and picked up some things including ice. My W calles me as I am almost home to say, "I wanted to call and ask you to pickup ice for the cooler." I said, "I am almost home and I already did." She said, "Well, your on it then." I said, "Yep." She said, "See you in a little bit." I said, "Good-bye." That was the end. We usually say, "I love you" at the end of our phone conversations, but neither of us did and I was not in the mood.

I would say that all day Monday, I remained mellow and not overly nice to my W. She acted nice to me for most of Monday, which was out of character for her lately. Going into this morning and till now, I have not changed my mood or how I react to her. We dropped our S off at school and went to the MC. By the way, we were supposed to have discussed what we were going to say to the MC, as we had agreed to discuss this again after we both took time to think of things. I knew my W would not take the time to think of this agaiin, but I wanted to give her the chance. However, I did not bring it up on Monday and did not think discussing it in the bedroom was a good idea. Therefore, this morning when we were getting ready I thought would be the best time. I approached my W and said, "Honey, we never had the chance yesterday to discuss what we would like to say to the MC about how we would like to make our sessions more worthwhile." My W said, "You know I do not like to go, and every time we have to go I am sick in my stomach before hand." I said, "Have you thought about how it could be different so you do not feel like that before the sessions?" She said, "I do not know. What you said before was fine." I said, "OK." I do not even know if she really remembers what I had said before. I really feel this was a cop out, but was not going to call her out on it.

We went to the MC and she asked how our two weeks had been. After a pause, because I wanted to give my W the chance to say something, I opened with, my W and I have reached an agreement. We both feel that have these sessions where we rehash old arguments that we already feel are past, is not helping us much. We would like for you to take a more active coaching role with us." I gave the MC the example about the "last word" and how she could stop us and explain our two different POVs and how they were actually similar. I then said, "I fell that working on good communication techniques is only a part of what I need. I feel that we need to rebuild our emotional love for eachother, while at the same time improving our communication." The MC said, "I agree that the two need to be worked on together, which is why it is important for the two of you to feel you can trust the other not to hurt you. This comes from how you communicate." My W brought up the email on Sunday and we dicussed the issues with her signing "love." I mentioned how it hurts me and how we reached an agreement and then it was broken. My W says that it is not a big deal for her to sign "love." This hurts me even more because it is what she signs to me. My W said, You are just insecure. You claim that you have changed and you have not. You are insecure and this is just another example of how I had to change to stay in this relationship. I have had to change to how you wanted me to be."
I said, "I did not change you. I cannot change you. All I can do is let you know how I feel on certain things. It is you choice and decision as to how you react. I also said, this issue with how you sign "love" to your older guy friends is a personal boundary with me. It is not because I am insecure, it is because I do not feel it is the proper thing to do and feel hurt if my W engages in this activity." My W said, "What about my boundaries?" I said, "What boundaries, you have never mentioned anything about boundaries to me before?" She said, "You are just saying this because you are insecure." I said, "This is not because I am insecure, I have a few simple boundaries and this is one of them. Another boundary of mine is that we remain monogomus. If this boundary was broken, there would be nothing you or the MC could say to convince me to change my boundary. Boundaries are what each of us setup for ourselves to allow us to feel happy with ourselves and look at ourselves in the mirror with a smile." The MC said, "you guys are not hearing eachother. Basically your W is saying that the meaning of the word 'Love' is different to your meaning. She does not put the same value on it, so it is ok for her to sign 'Love.'" My W brought up the example of using "Dear XXXX" to begin a letter. My W felt that all letters should not begin with 'Dear' because it is short for dearest. I said, "When I write emails to clients I always put 'Dear' at the beginning because it is the professionally accepted way of writting a letter." She disagreed. So the MC says, "I am going to ask you both to do something this week." She said, "You both should go on with your normal behavior. If one of you does something that hurts the other, the one hurt should mention that they are hurt (only once), and then let the other be. The person who does the hurt does not have to change thier behavior." My W said, "This will be easy for me, but I do not know if he can handle it." I said, "I do not understand why it is ok for one of us to continue with behavior if we know it is hurting the other. This says to me that if my W says she feels I am doing something that is controlling, that she is supposed to tell me what I am doing and then I am supposed to continue doing it. This seems bizzar to me." The MC said, "Mrs. EL, you can go and sign 'Love' to emails if you want." My W said, "I am not going to because I know it will bother Mr. EL and he'll get upset." The MC said, "That is fine. He can tell you that he is upset, but that does not mean you have to stop." This is where I am really confused. I have just spent paying for an hour, where I tell both these people that her signing "love" is a major boundary for me, and the MC gives her permission to violate my boundary. Can anyone explain this to me because I am totally lost? I still do not have my wedding ring on and I definitely do not feel this homework assignment will help me to put it back on.

Incidently, with my being upset and subdued with my W yesterday and today, she has treated me better than she has in a long time. Even, last night she says, "Good night honey, I'll see you in the morning." She never usually is the one to say good night to me. I usually am the one who says this, if it is ever said at all. Doe this mean, I should continue to behave this way. If I had to discribe the behavior it would be, that I had enough with everything.

Anyway, I will try to answer your questions:

MyAlias -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm not sure if a technique is needed for everyone but for me it worked. If I have a plan I can execute it. Give me a set of instructions and I'm off building. So, for me, this technique was the catalyst I needed to start introducing change in my behavior and in my life.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I see what you mean. I do try to do this. I find myself catching myself before I say something. But for right now, I am just too confused to even get into an argument at this time. I am starting to withdrawl again.


mineownself -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What I'm trying to get at is I think you're using a backwards process to budget your time. You're doing what you have to do to get your business taken care of and then doing as much as you can with everything else with what's left over. If your business is the most important thing in your life, to the point that you would save it over saving your marriage, this is appropriate. If your marriage and family are more important than your business, you need to reserve time to your marriage first, then to your family as a whole including one-on-one time with your child, THEN the business can have what's left over. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with what you are saying. Over the last four months I have made considerable efforts at reducing my time at work, even to the detriment of our business. This is because my family and marriage are the most important thing to me. One of the issues is that I do not feel my W values our spending one on one time together, much at all.

LFC -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But you have to do it as a team. Let's say you picked out the roast and the peas. She picked out the bun (in the oven - HA!) and the mashed potatoes. But there isn't enough room for the dessert that you both want. Well - something's gotta go. And it might mean you lose your peas so she can have pudding. And you might like peas and that might be hard - but since you only get one plate for your M, someone's gotta give. And maybe that means your wife would be willing to have 1/2 as many mashed potatoes so you can have your brownie. But you have to work together - and think about it as ONE PLATE. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I like the analogy. I see what you are saying. I do not feel that my W is in the sharing mood at this time. I certainly do not feel like sharing much since I feel like all I am doing is giving with the one exception of my boundary being crossed and our agreement abandoned with disregard to my feelings.

The current problem is that both my W and I are hyper-sensitive to what each of us is doing. Everything I do, my W sees as my trying to control her. If I tell her it hurts me for her to sign "love" in an email to another guy, I am told that I am trying to control her.

You know how my W has been trying to find selfworth with this whole board thing? She goes to a committee meeting and I am fine with it. I get home in time to watch our S and I tell her to have a good time. My S and I go for a bike ride (he really likes doing this with daddy). During the bike ride, my S says, "Daddy, can we go play on the swings?" I say OK and we ride our bikes to the swings. It just so happens that these swings are near the club house, where my W's committee meeting is being held. My W brings this up in MC and feels that I am spying on her because I am insecure and controlling. Come one!!!! I cannot do anything without it being misinturpreted and I have reached the point where I am tired of this. Please help me out here.

Thanks,

EL

EL--

I think the point of the homework is related to baby steps. The MC has no idea (i think) about how much you understand.

It is an attempt for you both to be able to see, in a "normal" situation how the things you do hurt each other. You understand, EL, how your W does things that hurt you. She understands how you do things that hurt her.

Right now, the MC wants to give you a chance to see how you are hurting each other. It may help dispell some of the insecurity questions.

I think that the specific mention of the inclusion of "love" in emails was the MC trying to make clear to your W that she was allowed to act in a naturally uninhibitted fashion.

CTJ -

I understand what you are saying, but I still do not understand the value in this excersize if one of us will be hurt by something.

When I first found out my W was signing "Love" at the end of her emails to her guys friends, it was early on in our relationship. Therefore, we were still heavy into the give give give stages of our relationship. The MC said, the reason we have some of our issues is because we are too hypersensitive about what each of us is doing and how we are interpreting what the other is doing. If we have the understanding or fall back in love, then we should be over looking smaller things, which are causing larger problems now. I completely agree with this statement. However, this is never going to change for a personal boundary. Therefore, I really think it was a poor suggestion on the MC's part to tell my W to go ahead and violate your H's boundary, oh yeah and by the way, if he complains about it, continue doing it. I mean, I have heard of the 180 thing, but this is "how to destroy your M in 1 week." I mean, really, my biggest need is SF. Since this is not being met, should I bring someone home tonight and when my W says she is hurt, just say, sorry and ignore her? This sounds rediculous, but it is on the same level as all other boundaries. Do you get what I am saying here or not?

Thanks,

EL

Yeah, I get you. But the difference in bringing home some meat, and signing her emails "Love" is.... Signing her emails "Love" is something she was already doing. If you were continually out at "massage parlors" getting some SF, the MC would probably have told you to continue.

I think the MC's thought is that another week of it isn't going to kill the M. But it *is* going to shed some light on the situation.

Extremely Lost

When you say signing “love” is a personal boundary what does that actually mean? A boundary is an action YOU take. Something SHE is doing can not really be a boundary because it’s not an action you are doing.

So, what’s at stake here? If she continues to do this does that mean you will end the relationship? Is it a deal breaker? What are you prepared to do or not prepared to do about this issue?

By the way, I’m not commenting about the appropriateness or right/wrong about it at the moment because I want to understand where you are on this issue. Is this your “hill to die on” or something else?

Mys

CTJ -

I am at a loss because I could not see the MC telling me to go to parlors. The problem here is that my W had stopped doing this and now she is told to go ahead and do it. This little experiment is something I am not comfortable with and feel it will cause me issues that will take a while to heal (if they do). On the other hand, I am now stuck, because if I go home and say, I disagree with the MC and do not wish for us to participate in her idea because I am not comfortable with it, I come across controlling to my W instead of trying to protect myself from further hurt. I am screwed either way.

EL

EL --

If your goal is to protect yourself from further hurt, you are screwed, anyway. Right now, you need to solace yourself with the idea that when your W hurts you it is typically unintentional.

Your W is going to hurt you, for the rest of your life. Your W is probably going to hurt you weekly, for the rest of your life. Your W is going to do stupid, thoughtless things... for the rest of your life.

Not because of who she is, but because of who we all are. Humans, in their finite limited nature, tend to make mistakes on a regular basis. Those mistakes often end up hurting those we love.

Right now, it's a matter of willingly letting yourself be hurt. Not because you don't want to back out on the MC. But because you want to learn about your marriage, and hopefully give the MC the feed back that he/she/it wants.

Hello Myschae,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> When you say signing “love” is a personal boundary what does that actually mean? A boundary is an action YOU take. Something SHE is doing can not really be a boundary because it’s not an action you are doing.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That means that my W, should not sign "love" to her emails, letters, cards, or say it over the phone to any men of the opposite sex, other than her family. This is unacceptable behavior that I would not participate in, nor do I wish to put up with. If it is not a big deal (as my W says) then why can't she stop doing it because it hurts me so much. Why does this have to be her hill to die on. Yes, I would have to consider if I could truly, deeply, LOVE a partner that willfully gives out her "Love" to everyone, but finds it so tough to give it out to her own H.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So, what’s at stake here? If she continues to do this does that mean you will end the relationship? Is it a deal breaker? What are you prepared to do or not prepared to do about this issue? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, pretty much on this one. I do feel it is a deal breaker. I am sorry, but it is improper. I am sick and tired of not being heard or understood or accepted on this one. I do not understand why you say a boundary is an action, because some people share the common boundary of monogomy. If your partner sleeps with someone else, this has infringed on your personal boundary, without the person who actually set the boundary performing any action.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> By the way, I’m not commenting about the appropriateness or right/wrong about it at the moment because I want to understand where you are on this issue. Is this your “hill to die on” or something else?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think I have a couple hills to die on and that appropriate and respectful behavior of my W towards other men is one of them. I will not accept anything less. This is me and what I require and need from my partner. It is not insecurity. If my W chooses to act inappropriately with other men, then I will choose to end our M.

I am sorry, but as you might tell, I am a little emotional on this subject.

What did you think of the rest of my post?

Thanks,

EL

CTJ -

I agree with you if you are reffering to ALL hurts. I am not. I understand that as humans we will do things that hurt the ones we love. What I am trying to do is protect myself from the "marriage ending" hurts. The kind that you almost will not be able to forgive.

EL

I see where you are coming from, now.

You need to understand something, though:


There are a lot people who will have trouble grasping how important this "Love" email issue is to you. For a lot of people, it is just an *empty* word on a screen.

For you, it carries a lot of meaning.

I can understand where you are at, though. I can see how it would be a deal breaker or a marriage ending hurt.

*But*, it is your choice for it to be so.

You cannot force your POV or even true understanding of your POV on your W. Right now, I'm willing to be that she just doesn't get it. I doubt she's interested in it being a marriage ending hurt.

You might also try to choose to understand that when she writes it, it is a meaningless empty word. You might decide that there is nothing their to hurt you.


I understand that you feel like it is inappropriate behaviour. It is clear that it is a very strong emotional issue for you.

But that also makes it a great example for you to show your wife how you are willing to understand her POV.

I'm probably being *way*, *way* too hard on you, here. I'm just trying to throw up as many warning signs and red flags as I can.


[edited to snip, and reedited to repaste, as I was just too darn slow ;-D]

<small>[ September 07, 2004, 04:11 PM: Message edited by: CommittedToJewel ]</small>

Extremely Lost

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What did you think of the rest of my post? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I’m organizing my thoughts on the rest of your post. I promise, I’m not ignoring it, they’re just somewhat complex and I’m trying to figure out how to express them.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yes, pretty much on this one. I do feel it is a deal breaker. I am sorry, but it is improper. I am sick and tired of not being heard or understood or accepted on this one. I do not understand why you say a boundary is an action, because some people share the common boundary of monogomy. If your partner sleeps with someone else, this has infringed on your personal boundary, without the person who actually set the boundary performing any action. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I’m not calling you insecure or anything else. I just wanted to find out. When I say a boundary is an action, I mean that it is a consequence. Just saying “My boundary is monogamy.” does not really communicate anything of significance other than you feel strongly about it. It is not the same as saying “I will not remain in a relationship that is not monogamous.” which implies an action (leaving). There is nothing you can do to force monogamy on your spouse. The only person you control is yourself. You can leave if you discover infidelity but you can’t MAKE your spouse be faithful. That’s what a boundary is.. it’s an action you take in response to a situation.

So in this case: If your partner sleeps with someone else, this has infringed on your personal boundary, without the person who actually set the boundary performing any action.

Your partner has performed an action. What makes it a boundary is YOU knowing in advance what you would do in that situation (leave?) and then doing it (leaving). If you don’t do ANYTHING when that happens, then how is that a boundary?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think I have a couple hills to die on and that appropriate and respectful behavior of my W towards other men is one of them. I will not accept anything less. This is me and what I require and need from my partner. It is not insecurity. If my W chooses to act inappropriately with other men, then I will choose to end our M. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There are a couple of problems that you have right now. One is that you have to be very, very clear in communicating this with your wife. Another is that it is unlikely that your wife will ADOPT your personal philosophy on this matter. It sounds as though that is what you are arguing, even if that’s not what your ultimate goal is. You can ask for specific behavior. You can be very clear about what consequences will be of that behavior. If you demand behavior or try to convince her she is “wrong” you are committing LB’s of Selfish Demands and Disrespectful Judgments.

More in a minute.. have to run real quick.

Mys

CTJ -

I appreciate your response, but I do not understand why it is so hard for people to understand why this word is so emotionally charged for me, or anyone else. This was one of my original issues that I wrote about when I started posting back in April. When I first posted this and asked everyone if I was out to lunch, EVERYONE that responded did so by saying that they felt signing "love" was inappropriate. EVERYONE, not just me. So now I do not understand why it would be so hard for a lot of people to understand where I am coming from. There were so many who responded before, some even claiming that my W was having EAs with everyone she wrote "love" to.

This again begs the question, if to me it is close to M ending, and to my W it is a meaningless word, why can she not just stop doing it out of respect or care for me being hurt? It is not a matter of me controlling her, or of my insecurities. It is a matter of this word meaning so very much to me. For some reason the MC and my W do not get this, and believe me I express it with emotion, that I feel I have just been made a fool of, through the MC saying, go ahead, keep doing it.

EL

Hey Mys,

I see what you are saying, but now I cannot ask or even express the boundary. If I say, I still do not accept my W signing "love" and if she chooses to continue to do so, I will leave, because, now she has been given permission by the MC to trounce on me. If I now walk away because of my boundary, I am walking away from the MC and what she suggested to save our M, which means I was unwilling to save our M. You see how this send the wrong message to my W no matter how I slice it? It is now impossible to turn this around. I almost feel like the MC has just setup the failure of my M. This is one of the reasons I now am loosing hope on a minute by minute basis. I do not even feel like going home, other than to see my S.

EL

EL--

I cannot speak to thought behind the original responses or to the people who thought it indicated an EA. Unfortunately, I can neither go back in time, nor get in their heads to understand what they were thinking.

It is an empty word, but it is also a habit, and a symbol of her ability to make her own decisions without having your perspective on the habit/word forced on her, right now.

To give you my perspective on it a little more clearly, I have had 20-30 year old waitresses sign their receipts with little hearts and smiley faces, reminiscent of a 14 years olds love letter. (And no, I'm not the type of guy that anyone would even *consider* flirting with.)

Some people express themselves that way.

But, I have to wonder:

If you *know* it doesn't mean that she is actually in love with the person on the other end of the letter... Why is this a make or break boundary for you?

Right now, the two of you are entering a dangerous game over this issue.

You've basically stated: Don't cross this line, It's the end.
She's basically taken the position: You can't tell me what to do. I'll cross the line if I want to. Besides which, why put the line there?

To my mind, since she's neither intentionally harming you, nor is she involved in an A, this is a dangerous time/issue to make a stand. (on.)

Extremely Lost

I’m going to stay on this issue before I jump to the rest of your post. I do have some thoughts on your homework assignment but I want to hash this out while we’re on the topic.

First, I’m not going to try to talk you out of your belief on the right/wrong of signing “love” on emails. I probably have quite a few things I feel strongly about that would raise several eyebrows around the board, too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Heh. I should go back and take the word ‘probably’ out of that sentence.

But, I digress.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I see what you are saying, but now I cannot ask or even express the boundary. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Au contraire’ you MUST communicate this boundary. But, you need to do it in a respectful, thoughtful way. Unless you’re willing to NOT leave because your MC said it was OK?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If I say, I still do not accept my W signing "love" and if she chooses to continue to do so, I will leave, because, now she has been given permission by the MC to trounce on me. If I now walk away because of my boundary, I am walking away from the MC and what she suggested to save our M, which means I was unwilling to save our M. You see how this send the wrong message to my W no matter how I slice it? It is now impossible to turn this around. I almost feel like the MC has just setup the failure of my M. This is one of the reasons I now am loosing hope on a minute by minute basis. I do not even feel like going home, other than to see my S. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, ok, take a big, deep breath. In the first place, RIGHT NOW this INSTANT you really probably shouldn't expect your wife to respect this boundary because it IS what the MC suggested. That does not mean this is going to be the way it is from this day forward into eternity. This is a short term issue… you have some time. Is your wife’s email volume of such concern to you that you’re afraid she’s going to go write a bunch of letters? I realize this is a sensitive issue but it’s one that you’ve been dealing with on an ongoing basis for 4 years. A few more days or weeks to straighten this out RIGHT is doable, isn’t it?

Still more coming if the phone will stop ringing!!

Mys

(edited to make sense)

<small>[ September 07, 2004, 04:34 PM: Message edited by: myschae ]</small>

Hey guys,

CTJ -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It is an empty word, but it is also a habit, and a symbol of her ability to make her own decisions without having your perspective on the habit/word forced on her, right now.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand this. This did not have to be right now. The MC chose to make it so. She could just have easily said, "OK, Mrs. EL, Lay off the signing "love" and sign "take care" because it is so emotionally charged for your H, and not that big of a deal for you, that it would go a long way in regaining your H's trust that you will not emotionally hurt him." Then she could have brought up her homework, but not including the "love" thing. She did not have to turn it into a jealousy/insecurity/control thing. It is not that, but in my W's eyes it will now always be that. This is why I say I am screwed.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you *know* it doesn't mean that she is actually in love with the person on the other end of the letter... Why is this a make or break boundary for you?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">One of the problems is that the whole issue started when she was emailing an ex-boyfriend and writing "Love." The other problem is that my W is a very smart woman, but somehow cannot pickup when guys are hitting on her or taking things too far. With her signing "love" it just invites temptation from a third party. We do not need this extra crap. Things are difficult enough between us as it is.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Right now, the two of you are entering a dangerous game over this issue.

You've basically stated: Don't cross this line, It's the end.
She's basically taken the position: You can't tell me what to do. I'll cross the line if I want to. Besides which, why put the line there?

To my mind, since she's neither intentionally harming you, nor is she involved in an A, this is a dangerous time/issue to make a stand. (on.)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have not stated the "actions" of my boundary to her. I do not feel this is a game. I feel that if she wants to give up our M over signing "love" to guys or ex-boyfriends then what kind of M do we really have?

Myscahe -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> First, I’m not going to try to talk you out of your belief on the right/wrong of signing “love” on emails. I probably have quite a few things I feel strongly about that would raise several eyebrows around the board, too. Heh. I should go back and take the word ‘probably’ out of that sentence.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Fair enough. Thanks for respecting my POV.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, ok, take a big, deep breath. In the first place, RIGHT NOW this INSTANT you really probably shouldn't expect your wife to respect this boundary because it IS what the MC suggested. That does not mean this is going to be the way it is from this day forward into eternity. This is a short term issue… you have some time. Is your wife’s email volume of such concern to you that you’re afraid she’s going to go write a bunch of letters? I realize this is a sensitive issue but it’s one that you’ve been dealing with on an ongoing basis for 4 years. A few more days or weeks to straighten this out RIGHT is doable, isn’t it?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I beg to differ. This is because, this most likely could be a pivitol point, a way as CTJ put it, to show my W that I have changed. However, I must do this by sacraficing my own beliefs and boundary which make me uncomfortable. If I do not like myself because I feel like I am letting myself be stepped on by allowing the boundary to be ignored, then I will not like myself very much. My not liking myself very much leads to a poor M but on a different path. If our M becomes great and then I later try to re-assurt this boundary, I will be seen as controlling no matter what. Therefore, there really is no choice, thanks to the MC.

On an aside, I am also at a point of withdrawing further, as I first wrote. My ring is already off and I cannot see my rushing to put it back on at this point.

Either way, my W is stubborn and this is one of the traits I liked about her in the beginning, but unfortunately I feel this trait will now help with our demise. If I make a stand, I pretty much know the results. If I allow my boundaries to be compromised, I will feel trampled on forever. Neither of the two results are favorable for me and I make up 50% of this M (atleast I thought I did).

I cannot believe Baba2 has not written in yet about how my W hates me etc...

Take Care,

EL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have not stated the "actions" of my boundary to her. I do not feel this is a game. I feel that if she wants to give up our M over signing "love" to guys or ex-boyfriends then what kind of M do we really have?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That may be precisely how she's feeling:

"I feel that if he wants to give up our M over me signing a stupid word to guys then what kind of M do we really have?"