Luvsdavid, this is all covered in the policy of radical honesty and the policy of joint agreement. In his 3rd example, LHs wife is honest about her feelings about the walk. She then opens negotiations by asking for other suggestions. (POJA) If you have trouble applying the principles to specific situations, you would really benefit from the radio show. Dr Harley applies the principles to specific situations.

"We are leaving today on the weekend get away with the family. I will use this and hopefully walk with my family and everybody is making love bank deposits. "

You are catching on, and i wanted to encourage you. You are starting to see how some of your behavior patterns have caused you problems. this was all a real eye opener for me too.

I wanted to address this comment, though. Be sure to do things with your wife about which she is enthusiastic. If she is not enthusiastic about going for a walk, then negotiate with her to find something you BOTH like. And I don't mean getting a grudging agreement, because those are a disaster.

You said you are taking your daughters. Are you and your wife getting in 15-20 hours ALONE each week?

GloveOil,

My wife texted me to look at this thread and now I know why.

Thanks for taking the time to write all that out. I wish I had read it yesterday before I did almost the exact same conversation with my wife (different topic, different situation, but same lousy confusing communication). Fortunately, after the stuff hit the fan, my wife and I sat and talked out how we could have improved our conversation and came up with something VERY similar to what you came up with for "best." It took us an hour to step through where all of the breakdowns were (just like this thread has pointed out), but with MB principles we were able to figure out the "best" way to communicate. So it's good to see you spell it out - it tells me that I'm not the only person in the world with screwed up communication. And it shows me that with practice - my W and I can figure out how to communicate effectively - and teach our children in the process.

Even if I hadn't been a wayward spouse, my poor communication skills were killing our marriage from the get-go. I wish we would have had MB 20 years ago. Anyway... Thanks 1,000,000!!!

LongHaul,
We are POUNDING into our conversations the simple phrase: "How would you feel about __________." It's a brilliant tool by Dr. H because it isn't demanding and it takes your spouses FEELINGS into account. Which is what it's all about! It's still unnatural for me, but I usually catch myself and redo mid-sentence. My W appreciates the effort even if I fumble... as long as I recover.

I just listened to a MB Radio blurb on this very topic:

Caring for your spouse

Excellent show for you and your BW to listen to about POJA.

Radio clip on Trouble with POJA
Segment #2
Segment #3

Radio Clip of Followup Show
Segment #2
Segment #3

Tell us what you think.

Doing the online program. We have just finished Selfish Demands. I seem to be more nurturing to StrongerMe's needs. I feel we are communicating better. I feel we have checks and balances in place because of MB. Sorry for not having a lot of depth here, just trying to keep posting to help my wife in the healing process of recovery.

Checking the box?????

I have an interview/testing on Saturday for a new job. If there is an offer, it will be second shift - leaving house at 2:00 PM, home at 12:30 AM.

I�m going to pretty much repost the pros/cons that StrongerMe/wife already posted because I�d like your thoughts. We�ve listened to half of the radio show clips that MelodyLane posted and plan to listen to the rest tonight or tomorrow.

Assuming there is an offer:
Pros:
� Income - almost 60% more than the teaching salary
� 2nd shift - helps in summertime - will be able to be home with the girls until 2:00 each day - StrongerMe usually gets home at around 5:00.
� Opportunity - hard to come by in this economy
� You can�t get a job on 1st shift unless you work on an off shift. They are talking about putting in an additional line but that doesn�t have any guaratees of a 1st shift job for several years.

Cons
� 2nd shift - won't see the girls during the school week, unless I get up early to take them to breakfast/school a couple of days
� 2nd shift - We will see each other less. StongerMe works at home 2 days per week, so we may be able to make up some of the time missed

What are your thoughts on trying to get another teaching job in two years if another one opens up? This is with strict adherence to EP�s.

Did you see what Dr Harley said about that? The problem with shift work jobs is that they are a disaster to marriages. None of the pros you listed can overcome that. Taking that job would virtually eliminate your necessary 20+ hours of undivided attention, which renders your recovery efforts useless. The program doesn't work without the UA time.

The FIRST THING to consider when choosing a job is if it complements or harms your marriage.

If you don't believe me, please post to Dr Harley and ask his opinion. It is HIS opinion that counts. None of us here know how to save a marriage. Our best thinking ruined our marriages.

you forgot one:


But don't take my word for it, ask Dr Harley. I sell soft drinks for a living and only know how to screw up marriages.

Please remember to concentrate on your UA time, finding things to do that you both enjoy....

Get an Ice Cream Treat (like a Hot Fudge Sunday) - Order ONE, and sit close enough to each other to share it. Make one rule before eating it.... You can only have a bite when the other one gives it to you..... It'll make you laugh and smile!

This is just one example, be creative....
It's the inexpensive fun while out on a date that makes all the difference.

It can't be serious all the time or you'll go insane!

This one is on my list for the very next time Mr Pep and I share a treat.
Thanks for the brilliant idea!

DH and I sit on the same side of the booth and share an entree. It is very romantic!!

Had a good weekend with StrongerMe this weekend. Had a good time with the daughters as well. We talked and had recreational activities together. The whole family went and rode bicycles together. We had different times that we were talking with each other and the girls while we were riding. This is one of the things I really enjoy is getting outside and doing something. Anything but being inside watching TV or on the computer. I was so happy because StrongerMe seemed to be positive about doing it and was trying to do it.

Here is where it started going south. Our children have not been listening to us. I have been trying to let StrongerMe handle the discipline because our daughters especially the younger 11 year old have not been obeying when they are told to do something. When they are spoken to they say ok and walk away. They are told 3 and 4 times to do chores. I really need to work on this because it makes me upset when this happens. I feel it is disrespectful for them to not obey us and I do not do well with them disobeying.

There are three females in this house. I do not like to wait. They may tell you they are always waiting on me. I have tried to deal with this by getting a Rubiks cube and working it while I wait on them. I also have a pellet rifle that I go outside and shoot until they come out.

We finished our family devotion last night and then I told the girls to do their bedtime routines. They didn�t move quickly enough for me. My wife and I talked about how I need to be more patient and I agreed with her after it was all discussed. I do feel she backs me for the most part on discipline with the children and I feel we end up on the same page. Sometime I have to tell her things but I have to give her time to process it. I feel we are in line with each other.

This makes me feel that I can�t do anything right. This morning I looked at motorcycles for sale and there was one with 2k less miles for 2k less than I would want for mine. My wife just wants it sold. I didn�t have positive feelings out of this.
We went to church and the message was on family. How the father is to be the leader of the household. Lead by example. It is very hard to be a leader if you have lied to the people that love you the most. You have not lead by example. You have let your family down in every way. Caused your wife pain that she may not ever be able to get over and made your children look at marriage in a negative way.

When we got home we were going to watch a movie with the family. I went to set up the movie and then my wife wanted me to put clothes up in the bedroom instead of us watching a movie. While I was putting the cloths up she wanted to talk about why I had been distant and not talking to her that morning. I told her I was going to post about it and she could read it then that I didn�t have all my thoughts together. She kept talking pressing the questions about what was I going to post and what was going through my mind. I was just trying to just put up clothes. We started arguing and it went south from there. I ended up watching the movie with my daughters without my wife. We talked about it later and I feel we are on a more positive note.

The difference in me now is:

I try to figure out what am I doing for us to have an argument.

Before I would think about just leaving because I couldn�t make her happy.

Why do I think the way I do because that is not what she meant?

How can I look at this differently and learn from it so it will never happen again?

What behavior do I need to change so that it will never start?

I never wanted to hurt her feelings before and I certainly do not want to do it now. I still am doing this and I understand that it is killing Love Bank deposits. This is one of the things that I really want to work on but the reality is we both have had behaviors to cause arguments for years. It is hard to change these bad habits overnight. I have 10 times the bad habits as my wife. I am trying. She hates to hear this when I say it.

I did quit my job on Dec. 19th.

I haven�t had any alcohol.

I haven�t put the motorcycle up for sale. I will do that this week.

We have been working through marriage builders and doing a minimum of 15 hrs. UA with each other every week.

I feel our feelings have changed when we argue. I feel I am looking for ways to fix it and I feel my wife is exhausted and is possibly wondering if all of this is worth it.

Haven't been following your thread but is it possible for you and the wife to take a parenting class together and be on the same page when it comes to discipline?

This is a real trigger.

My FWH put off selling his RC stuff because he would not sell for what he wanted it to sell for. Ever day several times a day, I thought about how much more the money and the RC stuff was meant to him. I didnt care if that was true, its how it felt and that was what was important.

I got to the point of telling him that I was going to go and donate it to the local good will if it was not sold for whatever he could get for it.

Hi Longhaul, I would first suggest that you go and post this to Dr Harley so he and your coach know you guys are fighting. I don't know which lessons you are on, but they might want you to jump over to the first 5 chapters of Lovebusters. Fighting is devastating to marriages and your marriage cannot afford this now or any time.

I know that Dr Harley told a man on the radio last week that there is no "trying" about stopping the lovebusters; just stop doing it. And that is what you are going to have to do. I realize it is easy to fall back into bad habits, believe me I had all of them too, but you guys can't do it anymore. I know you see how damaging it is.


You are so right. But you can change this today. It takes 2 people to argue.

One thing really stands out in your post that I wanted to address. And that is the comment about losing $2000 on the motorcycle. Were you saying this in the hopes that she would say "oh no, don't sell it then?" Did you say it to put pressure on her somehow? Because that is how I would have interpreted your comment. I would also feel like I was being pressured to say don't sell it and put in a position to have to RE-NEGOTIATE a key factor in my own recovery. Your wife cannot be placed in that condition, LH. She needs you to protect her now and can't be forced to defend her boundaries anymore.

I can't read her mind but that is exactly how I would have taken your comment. I would have been very upset. That motorcycle represents her worst nightmare and getting it out of there will alleviate many of her triggers.

You are leading by example by being man enough to face your wrongdoing and correct your wrongs. You are showing your children and your wife what a good man does, Longhaul. It takes a long time to earn respect when we have destroyed it. It is not easy but you are on the right road. Hang in there and don't give up.

And stop fighting!!

In reflecting, I would say I am having a difficult time in selling the motorcycle. I have rode dirt bikes and street bikes my whole life. I love riding motorcycles. I have always wanted my wife to ride with me. I tried to always get her to ride with me. I tried to get her to ride with older riders that did not drink and would be very conservative riders. She wouldn�t ride alone or with a group. I tried everything. We went to TX last October and we rode with another couple and had a wonderful time. I thought when we got back we would ride more. We rode more than we did before but not that much.

I understand this was one of the factors in recovery. She has told me she does not want me to turn my head and look at a motorcycle going down the road while we are in the car. She told me she wants the motorcycle sold with no plans of ever buying another one, EVER. Do not even bring this up two years from now or ever. She will bring it up and I am not to say anything unless she brings it up. This would be one of those times I would think to be quiet, think, and especially don�t speak.

$2000 dollars is a lot of money when you do not have a job. I am not getting unemployment. I have worked since I was 15 years old and have never been without a job. I am about to be at a month without a job.

The motorcycle is a small sacrifice to go without. I had rather have my wife recovering and moving forward and also not having triggers than having a motorcycle or a job. It will go just like the job. We will be better once it is gone.

Posting is therapeutic but I am very slow. My last post took one hour and 45 minutes to write. It frustrates me because that is time I could be spending with my wife. She seems to be better when I post.

You have been there for my wife when I was not. I truly believe without MB and you we would not be together. It takes my wife and I to do this and we are the ones that will make it successful but we have to follow the path. I just want to say �Thank You� for being a support system. You have been so helpful for us and I appreciate this. I hope we make it through this and I hope we will make you proud that you have helped us.