I would rather have our W's email Myschae because, I know behind that evil grin, there is a warm heart and she would snap them in line as well! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Extremely Lost

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What if managing2 is right and my W sees me as more independent and selfconfident with my acting this way? What if I go back to worrying about her feelings and what she would like and she sees me as needy or controling? By the way, the message I am trying to send is that I have had enough, at least for the moment and I am in over load and need to be away from her and her judgments for a little bit. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I suppose that is a possibility. Perhaps she is enjoying the distance, too. How do you feel about that?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Believe me I am passed annoyed. I am down right unhappy. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I know. I was just commenting on your “I don’t know how to feel about it.” comment. The usual answer is “feel how you need to feel about it.”

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Here we are again and her excuse was, "it is OK because you were in the room when I did it." This excuse made absolutely no sense. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, it might. Mmm.. consider the possibility that your wife is a “spirit of the agreement” rather than “letter of the law” kind of gal. It’s possible that since you were right there reading when she wrote it you would have the proper context of the letter. I assume the tone of the response was not in any way inappropriate?

This is why I think it is very important to ALSO discuss what happens if the agreement fails (assuming you ever reach one again). I don’t know that it’s realistic to assume it will never happen again. For one thing, this is probably somewhat of a life long habit of hers. It’s also somewhat below her radar as it’s not an important issue to her (not the hurting you part, the danger part). I think that it’s likely that even if she agrees that there will be times that she does it out of habit. What do you think would be reasonable in those circumstances?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I do not think it is a fair statement. This is because she is doing something that makes me feel hurt, makes me feel like less of a man. She does not need to do this behavior to live. I need the behavior to stop in order to live in this M. I think it is pertinent to tell her how it makes me feel and say, "you can do what you want with this information, you can continue to hurt me, or not." This is not controlling and it offers her a choice. It is not being melowdramatic, it is the truth. This is not her hill to die on, it is mine. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I did mention that it was somewhat rhetorical. But, I do think you’re right about offering her information. You can tell her how you feel and what you’re prepared to do and let her make a choice. That is the strategy I’ve been advocating all along. I just suggest you take out the emotionally charged statements so you can be HEARD clearly.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The one thing that kind of does not make sense with what managing2 said, is that if my W is looking for someone who is more independent, then why can't she understand and respect my independent request for her to stop this (as she even admits it) small hurtful act? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don’t quite get your meaning. How can HER CHANGING be construed as independent on your part? If you wanted to be independent.. wouldn’t that involve you doing something, not her? This action strikes me as the opposite of independent because you are relying on her action to help you feel <feeling>.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yes, I agree with you there is always the option to cave and change my behavior and accept all hurt just to not offend my W and try to allow our M to move forward, but this will build resentment with me. I honestly cannot see a way around this. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, I know. My whole point was just to mention that it was AN option. Not necessarily that it is the BEST option. That you acknowledge the possibility and reject it shows good thinking.

Mys

Hah! Fine... Finally had to create an email account to go with this screen name. (For obvious reasons, I'm a privacy freak here.)
CommitedToJewel@hotmail.com

I sent the account info to my W, as well. Kind of an email front.

Oh... Things have moved on, while I was signing up for email accounts.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I had tried this tact in the MC session, supposedly with the MC helping. I actually suggested "take care" and my W said it was to impersonal. This actually hurt me more because now she was admitting that her emails to these guys had to not be impersonal.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This strikes me as a little unfair. Your comments to Myschae have not always been "impersonal." Nor have mine. Friends are not impersonal with friends.

People who are just getting to know each other online are clearly not always impersonal with each other.

Your immediate reaction will be, "But you don't sign your posts with the word 'love'" No, I don't. But it has a different meaning for me than it does for your W. I know of a lot of females who will use that word to describe any kind of friendship.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is one thing to lay down your life for someone you love, and it is another to give up your life for someone to love you. I understand what you are trying to say here. I do not think it is a fair statement. This is because she is doing something that makes me feel hurt, makes me feel like less of a man. She does not need to do this behavior to live. I need the behavior to stop in order to live in this M. I think it is pertinent to tell her how it makes me feel and say, "you can do what you want with this information, you can continue to hurt me, or not." This is not controlling and it offers her a choice. It is not being melowdramatic, it is the truth. This is not her hill to die on, it is mine</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think it is very fair... But to clarify... What do you mean you are willing to die for her? Do you mean you are willing to die to keep her with you? You are willing to die to save her pain? How much pain?


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think it is pertinent to tell her how it makes me feel and say, "you can do what you want with this information, you can continue to hurt me, or not." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Preferably not in that wording. That sounds incredibly close to a guilt trip.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yes, I agree with you there is always the option to cave and change my behavior and accept all hurt just to not offend my W and try to allow our M to move forward, but this will build resentment with me. I honestly cannot see a way around this. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can.... I think? Don't resent it. Give it as a gift, through your understanding of her and her need for independence at this stage of the marriage.

This is not *her* forcing you to do anything, so there is no reason to resent her. This is *you* choosing your battles, and making winning the war your greatest goal. The war is not with her, but with the issues that plague your relationship.

Mys -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, I suppose that is a possibility. Perhaps she is enjoying the distance, too. How do you feel about that? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A little slap of reality and a slam between the eye brows. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> I can count on you! Maybe she is enjoying the distance. This does not say much about our M, but you could be right.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, it might. Mmm.. consider the possibility that your wife is a “spirit of the agreement” rather than “letter of the law” kind of gal. It’s possible that since you were right there reading when she wrote it you would have the proper context of the letter. I assume the tone of the response was not in any way inappropriate?

This is why I think it is very important to ALSO discuss what happens if the agreement fails (assuming you ever reach one again). I don’t know that it’s realistic to assume it will never happen again. For one thing, this is probably somewhat of a life long habit of hers. It’s also somewhat below her radar as it’s not an important issue to her (not the hurting you part, the danger part). I think that it’s likely that even if she agrees that there will be times that she does it out of habit. What do you think would be reasonable in those circumstances?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Obviously, I will not be someone to say that I know how the female mind works, but I can say that forme, if I learned of something I did as a life habit (for example, storing my toiletries on the sink), and my W said to me that it really bothers her when I do this, I would learn to comply because 1) it is not that big of a deal to me; 2) It makes my W happy; 3) I do not want to make my W hurt or feel bad if I can help it. Therefore, I learned to use a basket for my toiletries and now it is a habit of mine. The ironic thing is, she has learned to no longer us a basket and leaves her toiletries all over the bathroom. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, I did mention that it was somewhat rhetorical. But, I do think you’re right about offering her information. You can tell her how you feel and what you’re prepared to do and let her make a choice. That is the strategy I’ve been advocating all along. I just suggest you take out the emotionally charged statements so you can be HEARD clearly.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As always, I take your suggestions to heart. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don’t quite get your meaning. How can HER CHANGING be construed as independent on your part? If you wanted to be independent.. wouldn’t that involve you doing something, not her? This action strikes me as the opposite of independent because you are relying on her action to help you feel <feeling>.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I meant it more along the lines of, instead of her seeing my request as controlling, she should understand my request is being made because I am an individual that does not share the same feelings or levels of concerns about signing "love." It is because I am an independent individual that I request she comply with not hurting me on this matter. Is this clearer, or worse?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yeah, I know. My whole point was just to mention that it was AN option. Not necessarily that it is the BEST option. That you acknowledge the possibility and reject it shows good thinking. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The unfortunate thing is that I really do not have many options with this. It is ask for compliance or I'll leave, or suck it up and hate myself. What choices! <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

CTJ -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Oh... Things have moved on, while I was signing up for email accounts.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Careful, don't blink! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This strikes me as a little unfair. Your comments to Myschae have not always been "impersonal." Nor have mine. Friends are not impersonal with friends.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good Point.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Your immediate reaction will be, "But you don't sign your posts with the word 'love'" No, I don't. But it has a different meaning for me than it does for your W. I know of a lot of females who will use that word to describe any kind of friendship.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">See, this is just it. I never have until I was with my W and living together and found her correspondences. Just because you know of some women like this does not mean the average of women are like this. Just because I never knew of a woman like this does not mean there are not any. But you can see where both yours and my POVs differ and why. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think it is very fair... But to clarify... What do you mean you are willing to die for her? Do you mean you are willing to die to keep her with you? You are willing to die to save her pain? How much pain?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, my loaded statement versus your loaded question. I will try and do my best here. Am I willing to die to keep her? Well in my romantic shakespearean thoughts I would say yes. If you are asking from a phsycotic stand point the answer is h*** no. Yes I am willing to die to save her pain. How much pain, any that could not be avoided. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Preferably not in that wording. That sounds incredibly close to a guilt trip. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How about, "Look honey, I have been bothered ever since the MC session. When you sign "love" to the bottom of an email to your guy friends, it hurts me and makes me feel like our R is less significant in your mind. For me this is not about controlling you, it is about me feel safe with our R. I also feel hurt if you feel like you have to hide things from me because of how I might react. I know what the MC told us to do for a homework assignment and I do not feel comfortable with her telling you to go ahead and violate a boundary of mine. I just cannot see how this will help us in the long run. I would like to ask that you sign off in some other, less emotionally charged way on your emails. I understand that I cannot control you and you are your own person. Therefore, I realize all I can do is ask for this."

What do you think?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I can.... I think? Don't resent it. Give it as a gift, through your understanding of her and her need for independence at this stage of the marriage.

This is not *her* forcing you to do anything, so there is no reason to resent her. This is *you* choosing your battles, and making winning the war your greatest goal. The war is not with her, but with the issues that plague your relationship.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am sorry, but I still have a problem with willingly accepting my W sending anything to an ex-BF that she felt compelled to invite to our own wedding (before I knew they had dated) and signing it "love." This is me. Even though she says "we only dated a little bit." It does not matter, the fact is you dated. It makes me too uncomfortable. If I am to respect the fact that my W is too uncomfortable with SF or affection and I am to just accept this while we are working out all this other stuff, then she needs to also accept what makes me uncomfortable. Why do you guys feel this is so unreasonable on my end? Please make me see it, because after all day, I am not seeing it?

Thanks,

EL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What do you think?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Too much pressure, too immediate. Too contradictory of the MC's orders.

Personally, I think you should play by the rules of the MC's game. Every time you notice her doing it, scream "OWWWW That hurts!"

BTW, there was never an *order* that she do it. You have no idea if she *is* currently signing emails that way. But if you find out that she is, "OWWW THAT HURTS! I am so afraid of what is going to happen to our marriage. This relationship scares me because I have crapped up our relationship so bad, and this guy might seduce you into an EA."

And leave it at that. Seems a reasonable response to me. And you retain your right to be hurt.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why do you guys feel this is so unreasonable on my end? Please make me see it, because after all day, I am not seeing it?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In all honesty? Because you're the one I'm talking to. If you're talking to me, that means you want to save this M. If you've put up with my LB filled DJ posts so far, you really want to save this M. As I see it, my role in this thread is to give you advice on how to do so.

If she was the one talking with me, I would be giving her advice the other direction, just as passionately. My feeling is that this is an issue that should be discussed when you are both ready, and POJA's when you're both ready. Honestly, neither of you are ready right now. So for now, it's endured, one way or another. You're the one I'm talking to, so I advise you to change and endure.

My whole point has been that you're both right. You both have equally valid POVs here. Respecting that and understanding that you are each trying to protect yourself can take the edge off.

You're willing to die for her, but you want to protect yourself. She's only expressing an equal desire to protect herself. Great. You've both got valid POVs. So until you can negotiate it, you endure, and look at the other persons actions with understanding.

I don't believe very far in "hills to die on". If my W had an affair, she would feel my wrath for weaks straight. Then we'd start to clean up the mess.

The *only* case I wouldn't take her back is if she had continual affairs she flaunted in my face, was abusive without repentence, or was caught in an addiction they weren't willing to shake.

Other than that, it can be worked through.

Extremely Lost

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> A little slap of reality and a slam between the eye brows. I can count on you! Maybe she is enjoying the distance. This does not say much about our M, but you could be right. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I was just agreeing with you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

It is food for thought though.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Obviously, I will not be someone to say that I know how the female mind works, but I can say that forme, if I learned of something I did as a life habit (for example, storing my toiletries on the sink), and my W said to me that it really bothers her when I do this, I would learn to comply because 1) it is not that big of a deal to me; 2) It makes my W happy; 3) I do not want to make my W hurt or feel bad if I can help it. Therefore, I learned to use a basket for my toiletries and now it is a habit of mine. The ironic thing is, she has learned to no longer us a basket and leaves her toiletries all over the bathroom. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Fair enough. But, if on the off chance you forgot to put something in your basket one day (before this became a habit) what would have been an appropriate reaction? I assume leaving the marriage would not be on your list of choices. You see what I’m getting at here? I’m tossing that idea out there so you can ASK HER what she feels is appropriate as a reaction. In other words, how much variance can she and you expect. I think it is unrealistic to expect 100% compliance on an agreement that changes any life long habit. People make mistakes. How those mistakes are handled makes and breaks agreements.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I meant it more along the lines of, instead of her seeing my request as controlling, she should understand my request is being made because I am an individual that does not share the same feelings or levels of concerns about signing "love." It is because I am an independent individual that I request she comply with not hurting me on this matter. Is this clearer, or worse? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I suppose it’s clearer but I’m still unsure how you’re getting from the “not being needy or acting insecure” type of independence to the “I’m an independent person with opinions” kind of needy. It’s particularly fuzzy since this particular opinion requires her cooperation. I suggest that your wife likely sees this as part of the “problem” rather than a step away from it. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t need to be addressed, just that I have a different perspective on it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The unfortunate thing is that I really do not have many options with this. It is ask for compliance or I'll leave, or suck it up and hate myself. What choices! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, she might have many of the same choices. What if, by complying, she is building hurtful resentment towards you? If she says she “feels controlled” do you think that is a positive feeling? Perhaps in her mind she’s experiencing the same dilemma.

There is hurt here on both sides, EL. Big hurt.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> How about, "Look honey, I have been bothered ever since the MC session. When you sign "love" to the bottom of an email to your guy friends, it hurts me and makes me feel like our R is less significant in your mind. For me this is not about controlling you, it is about me feel safe with our R. I also feel hurt if you feel like you have to hide things from me because of how I might react. I know what the MC told us to do for a homework assignment and I do not feel comfortable with her telling you to go ahead and violate a boundary of mine. I just cannot see how this will help us in the long run. I would like to ask that you sign off in some other, less emotionally charged way on your emails. I understand that I cannot control you and you are your own person. Therefore, I realize all I can do is ask for this."

What do you think? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Blah! No where in there did you ask her what WOULD HELP HER BE ENTHUSIASTIC.

Ok, let me say this again. Find some way to negotiate with your wife. That means, it will be better if she feels “good” about the deal. Not that she should sacrifice on your behalf. If you try and finagle some way to give her something that she considers of “equal or greater value” then the deal will mean more to her and you’ll experience more success. This is the same message (much, much better wording though.. good job on that) “do something for me pretty please because I really want/need you to..”. Change that message. Make it “I want you to be enthusiastic. What would you like to see happen that will make this work for you?”

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Why do you guys feel this is so unreasonable on my end? Please make me see it, because after all day, I am not seeing it? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The problem with it is the way you phrased it. You are not building agreement you are making a selfish demand. “She just has to accept” is not negotiation-speak. Build agreements. Build agreements. Build agreements. If it was “I need to find some way to get my needs met by building an agreement here.” THAT would be something I can get behind. Got it?

Mys

You know that thing I was saying about hills to die on:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Build agreements. Build agreements. Build agreements. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah! That's what I'm driving at.

Good Morning Guys,

Well, I got home last night and I found that I cannot shake my colder feelings towards my W at this time. I went home expecting to give it a chance and have a talk and when I got home and was near her, I just could not do it. I tensed up and felt cold. We went out for pizza with our S and then I took our S and did something special. Just before bed, my W suggested something that all three of us might do that would be special for our S. I say, "Yeah, maybe." I think she is getting a little jealous that my attentions are now focused solely on my S and having good times with him. However, when the majority of my time used to be focusing on her and trying to do special things with her, she was not that receptive.

I asked her about this wedding coming up and if she has decided to go? You see, I know that an altimute showing of trust would be for me to say, "you just go." This is because all of her "guy" friends that I have potential issues with are mostly single and will be there on the prowl. I am not comfortable with doing this obviously, but it is certainly an option. I would rather we both go and she learns to accept me as part of her entire life (including friends from her past). She has not said to me that she wants to go by herself. In fact, any time she has mentioned this wedding, it has always been about US going. Maybe she is thinking that I would not be able to handle her requesting to go alone. What do you think here? Do I take advantage of this situation and tell her to go alone. She might take this as an "I really do not care anymore."

She asked me last night about what I thought about going. I said, "I really do not have any feelings either way. It is an old friend of yours and I do not feel it would be right of me to make a decision of whether or not to go to his wedding." She kept asking, "So you really do not care either way?" I kept saying, "no." Finally, I said something she would usually say after I asked something more than once. I said, "Look, I really do not know what you want me to say here." This stopped the questioning.

Before we fell asleep, I reached over in our bed to hold her hand. She said, "does this mean you want to hold my hand? Why don't you just say that you want to hold my hand." I figured I did not have to since my putting my hand by her side and open usually got the response of holding her hand or the response of "I do not feel like holding hands." Therfore, I did not think to ask because I never had to before. Anyway, we ended up holding hands last night for a couple of minutes. I also said "good night." She said, "Good night. I love you." I said, "Love you too." This morning I kissed her good-bye and here I am.

Usually, I can decide to just change my mood and get on with it. I cannot this time, which is telling me that we are dealing with a boundary for me. Unfortunately, there is no compromise with a personal boundary. I do not know if the full action of this boundary, because it does not necessarily have to be "to leave the marriage." It very well could be, "distance your heart and monitor the situation," which is what I have done and am continuing to do.

Niether of us must have felt we have been hurt by the other since the MC session because neither of us have told the other one we have been hurt, which was part of our homework assignment. However, I remain skeptical about my W actually telling me she has been hurt, because she tends to not tell me this. This also does not take into account anything that we do in the abscence of the other. Therefore, if she signs "love" in my abscence, even though I am not there to be hurt, it is still wrong/hurtful. This homework also can potentially foster the concept of hiding things from a spouse, which is another boundary of mine. Boy, I am full of boundaries, eh?

CTJ -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Too much pressure, too immediate. Too contradictory of the MC's orders.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I see, this is what concerned me as well.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Personally, I think you should play by the rules of the MC's game. Every time you notice her doing it, scream "OWWWW That hurts!"
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is not that I cannot play by the rules of the MC's game, it is that I do not think I can do this without distancing myself from my W, which I feel is drastically counter productive towards working on an M. However, with new ideas brought up in recent posts, maybe this new distancing I am doing is something my W wants or needs right now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> BTW, there was never an *order* that she do it. You have no idea if she *is* currently signing emails that way. But if you find out that she is, "OWWW THAT HURTS! I am so afraid of what is going to happen to our marriage. This relationship scares me because I have crapped up our relationship so bad, and this guy might seduce you into an EA."
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right that she was never ordered to do this. I do not have an idea that she is doing this. What you wrote would be taken completely poorly by my W. She would see this as jealous, controlling and untrusting of her. The problem is that she does not consider her actions hurtful to me. If she has to alter something that she wants to do, whether this action greatly pains me or not (right or wrong of me), she feels as though she has had to alter who she is and that this is not right. My argument is that in an M we are "two as one" and by an M's nature, there will be some altering of each of us for the greater good of the M and the feelings of the other. Is this making sense?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> In all honesty? Because you're the one I'm talking to. If you're talking to me, that means you want to save this M. If you've put up with my LB filled DJ posts so far, you really want to save this M. As I see it, my role in this thread is to give you advice on how to do so. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Slight difference to what I want to do and what you suggested I might want. I want to not only save my M, but improve it to what it should be. I have no interest in saving my M and having it remain how it has been degraded over the last 4.5 years now. I do know the answer to this question and my M has gotten to the point that if this is as good as it can get, I am done with it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If she was the one talking with me, I would be giving her advice the other direction, just as passionately. My feeling is that this is an issue that should be discussed when you are both ready, and POJA's when you're both ready. Honestly, neither of you are ready right now. So for now, it's endured, one way or another. You're the one I'm talking to, so I advise you to change and endure.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree that neither of us are ready for this yet. But, we never will be if the hurtfullness is not stopped before it grows out of control. You cannot become ready to agree on things if you are still hurting each other.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You're willing to die for her, but you want to protect yourself. She's only expressing an equal desire to protect herself. Great. You've both got valid POVs. So until you can negotiate it, you endure, and look at the other persons actions with understanding.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, what your missing here is that she has not expressed the desire to protect me, only herself. However, you have picked up that I am perfectly willing and wanting to protect her and I. There is a big difference here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I don't believe very far in "hills to die on". If my W had an affair, she would feel my wrath for weaks straight. Then we'd start to clean up the mess.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, there is a difference between you and I then. I have been brought up on this being one of the "ultimate betrayals." I would find it extremely difficult to look past this. To me, someone that does this has made a concious decision to "throw the M away." This can never be recovered for me. Convictions are what make us who we are. I applaud your ability to be able to get through something like this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The *only* case I wouldn't take her back is if she had continual affairs she flaunted in my face, was abusive without repentence, or was caught in an addiction they weren't willing to shake.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">One affair is flaunt enough! I actually think hiding it is worse because the person is making a further concious effort to decieve. Being open and upfront about it, would be easier in my mind, because the spouse would be fair in letting the other know and you both would have reached agreement that it is over, even if you are not ready for it to be over. Trust me, I have been through this.

Myschae -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Fair enough. But, if on the off chance you forgot to put something in your basket one day (before this became a habit) what would have been an appropriate reaction? I assume leaving the marriage would not be on your list of choices. You see what I’m getting at here? I’m tossing that idea out there so you can ASK HER what she feels is appropriate as a reaction. In other words, how much variance can she and you expect. I think it is unrealistic to expect 100% compliance on an agreement that changes any life long habit. People make mistakes. How those mistakes are handled makes and breaks agreements.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do see what you mean here. I do not believe in discussing what will happen if someone fails at something, because I believe it is agreeing that you will fail at some point. Whether or not it is realistic to think this way, I believe in believing in yourself 100% and giving yourself the best opportunity to succeed. To me this starts at not considering failure, because it is not an option. I know this can philisophically be argued until the cows come home, so I will stop here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I suppose it’s clearer but I’m still unsure how you’re getting from the “not being needy or acting insecure” type of independence to the “I’m an independent person with opinions” kind of needy. It’s particularly fuzzy since this particular opinion requires her cooperation. I suggest that your wife likely sees this as part of the “problem” rather than a step away from it. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t need to be addressed, just that I have a different perspective on it.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your POV is fair enough. The one thing though is that all boundaries require a type of action or compliance from the other spouse. For instance, BOUNDARY - If my W cheats on me, I will leave. This personal boundary of mine also requires my W to not cheat on me. You could just as easily fill in whatever blank you want, such as signing "love."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, she might have many of the same choices. What if, by complying, she is building hurtful resentment towards you? If she says she “feels controlled” do you think that is a positive feeling? Perhaps in her mind she’s experiencing the same dilemma.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Very possible and she would then have to make a choice. If she cannot live without signing emails to old male friends or Ex-bfs with terms of endearments such as the very powerful, flirtateous and emotionally packed word of "love," then she will have to make a choice as to what is more important to her. This or her M. It is not a matter of control. It is not being controlling to say, stop this it hurts me. It is more a matter of control from her to say, I will not stop because this should not hurt you. Don't you think?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> There is hurt here on both sides, EL. Big hurt.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with you here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Blah! No where in there did you ask her what WOULD HELP HER BE ENTHUSIASTIC.

Ok, let me say this again. Find some way to negotiate with your wife. That means, it will be better if she feels “good” about the deal. Not that she should sacrifice on your behalf. If you try and finagle some way to give her something that she considers of “equal or greater value” then the deal will mean more to her and you’ll experience more success. This is the same message (much, much better wording though.. good job on that) “do something for me pretty please because I really want/need you to..”. Change that message. Make it “I want you to be enthusiastic. What would you like to see happen that will make this work for you?”
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, thats fine, but last week you were telling me to not bring things into the conversation that I wanted her to do or feel. I was explicitly trying to keep these types of phrases out, based upon your advice. I am confused here. Of course, I want her enthusiastic agreement on not hurting me in this manner. I normally would have said, "Honey, I would really like to reach a compromise on this issue. One that will make me feel comfortable and not hurt, while at the same time allowing you to feel not controlled. Something we both can be enthusiastic about." The reason I did not say this is because I am telling her, what I want her to feel "not controlled" and "enthusiastic." Weren't you telling me that doing this would make matters worse? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The problem with it is the way you phrased it. You are not building agreement you are making a selfish demand. “She just has to accept” is not negotiation-speak. Build agreements. Build agreements. Build agreements. If it was “I need to find some way to get my needs met by building an agreement here.” THAT would be something I can get behind. Got it?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with your statement here.

CTJ -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You know that thing I was saying about hills to die on:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Build agreements. Build agreements. Build agreements.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yeah! That's what I'm driving at.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, let me first say that I agree that building agreement is the best way to improve Ms. Agreements on everything. Now I am going to give a drastic example for this multi-day discussion we have been having with regards to my W hurting me. For example purposes only (PUT THE 2x4s DOWN), if a spouse came home and slapped the other, on a daily basis, they would be hurting their spouse. If the spouse that was being slapped said to the slapper, "Please stop this, you are hurting me and I do not like this." What would you tell the person being slapped if the person slapping says, "This is who I am and you should not expect, nor ask for me to change who I am just because we are married!" Of course you would tell them to leave. Now, I used this drastic example because to me the emotional hurt caused by my W's signing "love" to ex-bfs and guys is an emotional hurt that is unfari to quantify as "not as bad as a physical hurt." This is where I am coming from. I know you guys have said, "what about her hurting because she is feeling controlled?" I argue, I do not wish for her to feel controlled nor do I wish to allow my hurt to continue so she does not feel controlled. Therefore, I am willing to reach an agreement to satisfy both, if we can. However, I will NEVER agree to her signing "love" as part of the solution at any time. This is because this is what I need to not have happen to not feel hurt.

We have pretty much beat this to death now and I still do not see a clear way of expressing myself to my W or the MC to get what I need. I do not feel like I am getting anywhere on this whole thing.

Anyway, any comments on the rest of what we are going through?

Thanks,

EL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I need her to be a little needy once in a while. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why would you need her to be needy?

Maybe what you were trying to say is that you need her to share more. But I'd guess that what you really want is for her to be less independent. This reeks of a co-dependency and/or insecurity issue.

EL I keep seeing red flags.

You want her to stop having friendships where love is involved. Is it because you view love as being something only between family members, spouses and same sex hetrosexuals? I believe there are different types of love. Love doesn't mean the same thing in every situation.

I can't say I have any female friends outside of family that I say I love but I could see it happening. For instance some of the female posters on this site that have taken an interest in my life could become loving friends.

Well actually that's not entirely true. A little bit of history. I have an X-SIL who I love dearly. She was married to one of my brothers and we have become dear loving friends. During her M to my B she stated, with my W present, that she always had a crush on me when we were younger and she often thought about dating me. Now I've created a friendship with her and we're no longer considered family. To this day I still tell her I love her and she says the same to me. My W doesn't view this as a threat because she knows we have a love that friends have.

I don't want to get into a discussion of what is right and what is wrong because there is no right or wrong only what works and what doesn't work. But I did want you to see there is the another side of thinking that differs from yours.

I think you and your W are stuck because you both believe you need something to be a certain way in order for your R to WORK. Unfortunately each one's need doesn't work for the other spouse. You view her need to sign love as a threat and she views your desire to stop that as a controlling behavior. Both could be explained as legitimate concerns. So how do you fix this? Well we can't change our spouses but we can change ourselves.

I myself would look internally at why I need her to see things my way. And then ask 'Why is it I can't budge on that need.' And then try to pokes holes in why I can't budge.

Why does it bother me that she has friendships with men where she feels love for them?

* - Legitimate infidelity possibilities
* - Jealousy
* - Out of my control
* - Gives off a bad impression to others(vane)

Maybe you say I don't know why!! It just feels uncomfortable and hurts.
There is a reason why so what is it? Keep digging. Define it with tangible reasons and then look closely at those reasons. Are they real or are they simply your mind thinking of the possibilities?

When you find a reason why then you can work on that reasoning and possibly change it. Also you could find a way to communicate it to your W and together you could find a way so you no longer feel hurt. A side benefit to that is that maybe she will no longer feel controlled.

Your looking for a WIN-WIN compromise yet I see you've drawn a line in the sand and aren't willing to accept that a change in your reaction might be the answer.

I'm not dismissing that you feel pain but you feel pain because of your learned behavior not because of something she's doing intentionally. And learned behavior can be changed and needs to be changed if it doesn't WORK in your life.

Some, not just your W, may categorize your stance on this situation as insecure, jealous, controlling and needy. Yet these are the things you've said your W doesn't like about you. And your asking her to accept some of these behaviors as who your are instead of working to change yourself.

Again the focus is 'What changes can I make to improve the situation' not 'What can I convince my W to do to improve the situation'.

EL I hope you don't take offense to this. I know you've beaten this topic up and you've explained your stance really well. I still see read flags.

EL--

Today is as close to a 2X4 as you're going to get from me. I want you to see what I'm seeing in your posts, because I believe it is what your W is seeing in your actions, and is in many ways, your elephant.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right that she was never ordered to do this. I do not have an idea that she is doing this. What you wrote would be taken completely poorly by my W. She would see this as jealous, controlling and untrusting of her. The problem is that she does not consider her actions hurtful to me. If she has to alter something that she wants to do, whether this action greatly pains me or not (right or wrong of me), she feels as though she has had to alter who she is and that this is not right. My argument is that in an M we are "two as one" and by an M's nature, there will be some altering of each of us for the greater good of the M and the feelings of the other. Is this making sense?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah... But I'm not suggesting you tell her to alter anything. That's not within the rules of the MC's homework. The rule is that you tell her what hurts you. That's all I'm suggesting you do.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, what your missing here is that she has not expressed the desire to protect me, only herself. However, you have picked up that I am perfectly willing and wanting to protect her and I. There is a big difference here.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Correction. My perception of the situation is that you are both equally focussed on protecting yourself. I've seen both of you make a few baby steps. However, I have not picked up that you *truly* willing to protect her. You've merely stated that you are.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, there is a difference between you and I then. I have been brought up on this being one of the "ultimate betrayals." I would find it extremely difficult to look past this. To me, someone that does this has made a concious decision to "throw the M away." This can never be recovered for me. Convictions are what make us who we are. I applaud your ability to be able to get through something like this.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yet you know from her own words that it is *not* a conscious decision to throw the M away. You choose to interpret it as that, but she states that it is not.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We have pretty much beat this to death now and I still do not see a clear way of expressing myself to my W or the MC to get what I need. I do not feel like I am getting anywhere on this whole thing. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This statement is 100% why I'm taking the tack I am on this. Because, right now, for you, your Taker is gone psycho and you are focussing on trying to "get what I need" by "expressing myself to my W or the MC".

You've stated you're willing to risk death. I feel that is a grandiose gesture that you keep in your head, but not something you are willing to put into effect. Why? Because you seem trapped on your own pain. I cannot see you willing to work past your pain, for short term gain. Keeping in mind that who knows what this MC will do during the next session. You do not seem willing to put aside your own needs and concerns for the next x months, in order to get past things. This, despite the fact that you have admitted your own controlling behaviour is partially responsible for the situation.

I'll leave it with this:

You've mentioned off and on about how you can't continue with any self respect having compromised your beliefs, etc...

What kind of self respect will you be able to have 2 years from now, knowing that you had the power in your hand to grit things through, but you gave up? What story will you tell the bartender?

MyAlias--

I agree with you. When I was in a similar position to EL, I poked and poked and digged and digged, and found it was nothing by my own insecurity driving me. I felt that was ugly and that I was just trying to force my W to do something to make me feel better, when really I should be working on my own insecurity issues.

Extremely Lost

Hrm. Well, I am a bit at a loss for what to say. (isn't that a first?)

I understand that you're frustrated and, frankly, I really don't want to add to your frustration. You and I have very different perspectives and philosophies on many things on a sort of "the way things work" level. At times, I suspect that is helpful to you because it helps you consider alternate points of view. (I'm pretty safe to bounce ideas off as you're not likely to hurt my feelings.) On the other hand, I think it is a challenge to you because you don't feel AS validated as you possibly can and constantly bantering with a devil's advocate can be tiring. I may have reached the end of my usefulness here. That is not to say I’m abandoning you.. it's just recognition that perhaps what I have to say isn't as useful as what someone else might be able to offer.

Be that as it may, I'll give you what few thoughts I have and try not to keep beating the flies off all the dead horses.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I do see what you mean here. I do not believe in discussing what will happen if someone fails at something, because I believe it is agreeing that you will fail at some point. Whether or not it is realistic to think this way, I believe in believing in yourself 100% and giving yourself the best opportunity to succeed. To me this starts at not considering failure, because it is not an option. I know this can philisophically be argued until the cows come home, so I will stop here. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not trying to argue the right/wrong of your point of view. I understand where you're coming from and I can even see the value in it. I'd like to share with you, however, how I would react to this type of attitude or belief system. This is simply an alternate point of view and a peek into how SOME people might experience that attitude. (Most of this comes from how I was raised and may or may not have anything to do with how your wife feels.)

I would find it almost impossible to ever make any agreements with someone who was unwilling to consider the possibility of failure. It's fine if that is a personal standard, but if that extended to me, it would scare me to death. I'd never feel able to measure up. I'd constantly feel inadequate and as though I was being somehow graded (and poorly) because I did or didn’t do something quite right. I'd only make agreements if I felt 100% positive I could do them.. and even then I'd be fairly resistant.

I can say that with absolute conviction because I grew up around people (my FOO) who believed that way. If I didn't do something quite right, I was bombarded with disappointment all the time. It made me miserable and withdrawn and I never wanted to agree to anything to keep myself from having to disappoint them. Better to be a failure because I didn't do anything than to try and risk actually not being able to do it.

One of the major points I've built into my relationship negotiation tactics is the ability for plans and agreements to FAIL without blame accruing to the other party. This was necessary for me to be able to make agreements and stretch out of my comfort zone. Everything we agree to is on a trial basis. If after a period of time, one or the other doesn't like it, the agreement ENDS and a new one is negotiated. If I felt I was going to be punished because I didn't like some agreement that was made, then I can say with a fair degree of certainty that there would be very few agreements ever made.

It might not apply to your situation, but then again, perhaps it's food for thought.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Your POV is fair enough. The one thing though is that all boundaries require a type of action or compliance from the other spouse. For instance, BOUNDARY - If my W cheats on me, I will leave. This personal boundary of mine also requires my W to not cheat on me. You could just as easily fill in whatever blank you want, such as signing "love." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Heh. We're speaking at cross purposes. I'm saying that a boundary does not require ANYTHING from the other person. All you can do is give your spouse the information about how you're going to react. If you're going to react by leaving in an infidelity situation, then your spouse has that information and can act accordingly. Or, at least know what to expect. There is no requirement that your spouse act a certain way – only the expectation that once the <action> occurs the <consequence or result> will happen. It’s like physics. Crashing into a wall at 60mph is a bad idea because of what will result (death). It's not that you CAN’T crash into a wall at 60mph, because you most certainly can, it's just that if you do, you probably shouldn't expect to walk away from it unscathed.

So, like not crashing into a wall at 60mph is conducive to life; not having an affair is conducive to marriage.

I think where we're getting hung up on this is the idea that you're saying your action 'leaving' or whatever is contingent upon the action of your spouse. THAT I can heartily agree with (see, I'm not that difficult) BUT it's not the same thing as saying "MY spouse Can't." because your spouse most certainly CAN. What you want to do is make it very clear to your spouse what happens NEXT once <action> is done.

Crashing into a wall at 60mph --> death or grievous bodily injury
Signing love to emails ---> ?

Where we differ is that you express it as a 'requirement' and I express it as a 'consequence'. They are similar but not exactly the same. And, I'm not sure it really matters as long as you know what I mean and I know what you mean. Did I get what you mean correct?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It is not a matter of control. It is not being controlling to say, stop this it hurts me. It is more a matter of control from her to say, I will not stop because this should not hurt you. Don't you think? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, you didn't really put two equivalent statements up there. If you wanted to be fair you'd say:

Stop this hurts me because stopping should not hurt you.
Vs
I will not stop because this should not hurt you.

Then it would be the same. They're both Selfish Demands.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> OK, thats fine, but last week you were telling me to not bring things into the conversation that I wanted her to do or feel. I was explicitly trying to keep these types of phrases out, based upon your advice. I am confused here. Of course, I want her enthusiastic agreement on not hurting me in this manner. I normally would have said, "Honey, I would really like to reach a compromise on this issue. One that will make me feel comfortable and not hurt, while at the same time allowing you to feel not controlled. Something we both can be enthusiastic about." The reason I did not say this is because I am telling her, what I want her to feel "not controlled" and "enthusiastic." Weren't you telling me that doing this would make matters worse? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah. This one is my fault. I have been bouncing back and forth and it's no bloody wonder you're confused.

*sighs* Let me see if I can straighten this out. I might not be able to and here's why. The reason this is so confusing is because we keep bouncing back and forth between using POJA and asserting a boundary. You and I seem to be in somewhat of disagreement as to what a boundary is so when I start talking about boundaries and you start talking about getting your wife to agree to do something the issue gets muddled together. Let me try and make this as clear as I can.

In relation to asserting a boundary:

Boundaries, as I define them, are NOT building agreements. They are simply a statement of cause and effect. If you do <X>, then expect ME to do <Y>. It's not saying "I need you to agree not to do X." or "You must do <X>" it's simply here's what to expect if <X> happens. It's providing information.

In relation to POJA:

POJA is building agreements. POJA IS asking your wife to do <X> or not do <X> as the case applies. But, POJA requires enthusiastic agreement so each person should walk away with something of greater or equal value to him/herself. POJA is about negotiation. Boundaries are not.

So, depending on which one you're trying to do – and doing both at once is .. confusing as we've discovered… would indicate what you do. Now, where you and I seem to differ is in how you define boundaries. You keep talking about having a boundary and getting her to agree. The two things don't really mix well in my way of looking at things or, in other words, I don't know how to help you do that.

As for which you should be doing, I can't really say. It's obvious that you feel strongly enough about this to be a boundary but you haven't really decided what that should mean as evidenced by this statement:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I do not know if the full action of this boundary, because it does not necessarily have to be "to leave the marriage." It very well could be, "distance your heart and monitor the situation," which is what I have done and am continuing to do. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If it is going to be a boundary then it is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to figure out what that means and give her that information. That's Radical Honesty.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> We have pretty much beat this to death now and I still do not see a clear way of expressing myself to my W or the MC to get what I need. I do not feel like I am getting anywhere on this whole thing. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">*sighs* I'm sorry about that. I hope you can find what you need. Again, I think we have enough differences in our approach at this stage that I honestly don't know how to get you where you want to go. I will continue to be around though and hope you find someone who has some closer ideas than I do.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Anyway, any comments on the rest of what we are going through? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Some, but it's all mostly related and is probably a repeat of what I've been saying. You have to admit, I'm USUALLY fairly consistent. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />


Wishing you the best, as always,

Mys

Hello MyAlias,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Why would you need her to be needy?

Maybe what you were trying to say is that you need her to share more. But I'd guess that what you really want is for her to be less independent. This reeks of a co-dependency and/or insecurity issue. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What I meant here is that my W has admitted to having built a wall in her heart that lets no </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">one in. She admits she can never feel like she needs someone or has to rely on them. To me you cannot have a truely loving M without the scarieness of having to rely on your spouse or depend on them once in a while. Therefore, I see this as a road block between where we are now and where I want our M to be. I will not feel truely loved by my W until I know that she has let me in and through this wall. Based on her words, I see this as a trust issue that she has. Sure I have admitted and am trying to come to grips with my own trust issues and she has certainly waived the flag high on saying, see, I have been telling you you had these trust issues. Well, reality sucks, doesn't it sometimes, low and behold she actually has never truly trusted me on some levels either. However, the difference here is that I now (through some miracle) see my trust issues and their destruction. Unfortunately, she has not, nor is she even willing to consider looking at hers. This is what I really meant.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You want her to stop having friendships where love is involved. Is it because you view love as being something only between family members, spouses and same sex hetrosexuals? I believe there are different types of love. Love doesn't mean the same thing in every situation. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with this. In fact we have discussed this in our last session. The MC asked me if I felt there were different loves and I said, yes. I then said, there is love of family, love of friends and love of spouse and love of children. The disagreement is the use of the actual word and the connotations it carries with it. This is where the MC and my W say that the use of the word "love" to my W means very little, other than the way she signs off her mail. Therefore, I then have to ask, if it is so insignificant to her, yet so big an issue for me, why can't she compromise by giving up what she has admitted is sooooo insignificant. Her unwillingness to give up something she has admitted is sooooo insignificant is what is causing part of our problem.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I don't want to get into a discussion of what is right and what is wrong because there is no right or wrong only what works and what doesn't work. But I did want you to see there is the another side of thinking that differs from yours.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand this and accept what you are saying.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think you and your W are stuck because you both believe you need something to be a certain way in order for your R to WORK. Unfortunately each one's need doesn't work for the other spouse. You view her need to sign love as a threat and she views your desire to stop that as a controlling behavior. Both could be explained as legitimate concerns. So how do you fix this? Well we can't change our spouses but we can change ourselves. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I also understand what you are saying, but have trouble accepting this. Yes, I know, I am the one here and because I am, I must change. But, you know, if I blow this philosophy up to the "big" picture, I would never be here. This is because I would force myself to learn to accept and live with: no sf, no happiness, getting treated unkind and cold, no affection and on and on and on. This is because using the same philosophy most are telling me, I should change, because I am aware of the issue, I am wanting to improve my M, I am the one currently willing to do something. Well, this does not work because, everything is a learned behavior. My W has black hair, and I love black hair. This is a learned behavior. If I trained myself, I bet I could relearn to love blonde hair (my ex-W) and therefore, cause one way I am less attracted to my W. However, my changing this learned behavior makes no sense. Niether does, my always changing because I can only change myself and I am here. Do you see what I mean? I am not just trying to argue for arguments sake here. Anytime, I raise an issue about a problem I am having, at some point I am told to change and not want or desire what I do and then the problem will go away.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I myself would look internally at why I need her to see things my way. And then ask 'Why is it I can't budge on that need.' And then try to pokes holes in why I can't budge. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You offer a fair suggestion here. As I see my stance as a personal belief that signing "love" at the end of an email to ex-whatevers is not appropriate behavior for a spouse TO ME, I am also human enough to be willing to look into why I believe this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Why does it bother me that she has friendships with men where she feels love for them? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A big reason here is that the little I did interact with these "men," some of them were not treating me as friendly and in fact some were treating me as a challenge. Now I know the men on this post understand what I mean. No offense to the women, but I am not sure you can understand what I mean here. When I have brought this up to my W, I was treated as rediculous or crazy or jealous about her firends. She does not see their intentions or how they treat me, or actually how they treat her for that matter. Like I said earlier, she does not see when they are flirting with her, and it is painfully obvious to me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> * - Legitimate infidelity possibilities </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sure. I do not feel that our M is currently strong enough for me to completely dismiss this possibility. Therefore, I felt allowing the continued contact with these old firends (note, not all are bad), was a big step on my part. I felt the simple request of the way she signed the emails was fair to make me comfortable. You see I already had compromised, from, I am uncomfortable with your contact with these people to go ahead and have contact, but can we please keep it the typ of contact that would not be offensive to me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> * - Jealousy </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sure, there are some aspects of this that are because I am jealous at times. H***, I am jealous of our S and our cats for that matter because my W cuddles with them on a regular basis and can not put two and two together with me to even attempt to cuddle on her own. It is human nature, it would make anyone jealous.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> * - Out of my control
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Certainly this makes me uncomfortable, it would most people. Unfortunately, control is an illusion. Having several times in my life where the World as I knew it came crashing down, taught me control is only an illusion.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">* - Gives off a bad impression to others(vane)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course it does give off a bad impression to others, but I am not one to care about what others really think when they are judging me. So no, I am not really vain. However, I am concerned about the impression she leaves these guys by signing the way she does or flirting (which she would define as just being nice). Any guy that says differently here is truly lying, but when a woman says or writes love or flirts, she is leaving an impression (even if it is an infintesimal impression) that "I am available." Whether the woman thinks this or actually agrees with this is not in question here. Even the men who read my statement and take a hollier than though stance, deep down know there is some truth to what I say.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Your looking for a WIN-WIN compromise yet I see you've drawn a line in the sand and aren't willing to accept that a change in your reaction might be the answer.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Some things require a line to be drawn. If I could not trust my W to not hurt our S, he and I would be gone today.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Some, not just your W, may categorize your stance on this situation as insecure, jealous, controlling and needy. Yet these are the things you've said your W doesn't like about you. And your asking her to accept some of these behaviors as who your are instead of working to change yourself.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Some also would say that asking a spouse to not put themselves into a position where there is the potential for an EA or an A is a stance that shows insecurity, jealousy, control and neediness. Its all in a matter of the degree or level you take this statement. As you said earlier, there is nr right or wrong, only what works, and what works for some may not work for others.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Again the focus is 'What changes can I make to improve the situation' not 'What can I convince my W to do to improve the situation'.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Funny enough, the MB principles advocate one person working on improving the M initially, when the other spouse appears or acts unwilling, however, it takes both to make the M good in the end. One spouse just compromising all the time is using the giver way too much and is equally as unhealthy.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> EL I hope you don't take offense to this. I know you've beaten this topic up and you've explained your stance really well. I still see read flags.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MyAlias, I certainly do not take offense to anything you have ever written. Inturn, I hope you have not taken offense to what I have written. I also see red flags, but unfortunately, most are not from me THIS TIME.

Hello CTJ,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Today is as close to a 2X4 as you're going to get from me. I want you to see what I'm seeing in your posts, because I believe it is what your W is seeing in your actions, and is in many ways, your elephant.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK. (Straps on two construction helmets and bites on a piece of leather). <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yeah... But I'm not suggesting you tell her to alter anything. That's not within the rules of the MC's homework. The rule is that you tell her what hurts you. That's all I'm suggesting you do.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If I went strictly by the MC's homework, I can only tell my W WHEN something hurts me at the time of the hurt. Therefore, I cannot or should not bring up discussion, I think. You see, I am still all confused about this HW.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Correction. My perception of the situation is that you are both equally focussed on protecting yourself. I've seen both of you make a few baby steps. However, I have not picked up that you *truly* willing to protect her. You've merely stated that you are. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Fair enough, I have stated this. My W will not even do this much. I do not say this to get into a I do this and she does that, tit for tat. I am willing to protect her even at the sacrafice of me. However, to have a great M, I should not be sacraficing myself, but it does not mean I am not willing.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yet you know from her own words that it is *not* a conscious decision to throw the M away. You choose to interpret it as that, but she states that it is not. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, what about the cheating spouse that says, I care about our M more than anything in the World and did not want to throw away our M by having an affair. Does this make it OK because they say that? I am just asking.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This statement is 100% why I'm taking the tack I am on this. Because, right now, for you, your Taker is gone psycho and you are focussing on trying to "get what I need" by "expressing myself to my W or the MC". </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am sorry, but this is what people have been telling me to do throughout this whole thread. They say, "express what you need, not what you want you partner to need. Be clear in letting them know what YOU want. Make sure you 'express' your needs to your partner." Now you are telling me this is not right to do and my taker has gone phsyco. I can assure you my taker is not going phsyco. It is difficult for me to express myself like this to my partner.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You've stated you're willing to risk death. I feel that is a grandiose gesture that you keep in your head, but not something you are willing to put into effect. Why? Because you seem trapped on your own pain. I cannot see you willing to work past your pain, for short term gain. Keeping in mind that who knows what this MC will do during the next session. You do not seem willing to put aside your own needs and concerns for the next x months, in order to get past things. This, despite the fact that you have admitted your own controlling behaviour is partially responsible for the situation.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">First, I am sorry you feel that my words are only a grandiose gesture, because I assure you they are not. Secondly, I am partly in this situation because I have went through setting my own needs aside for over a year and got no where. I have done this multiple times and continue to do this. This is why some have suggested to me to do this. Now you are truly confusing me on this matter.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You've mentioned off and on about how you can't continue with any self respect having compromised your beliefs, etc...

What kind of self respect will you be able to have 2 years from now, knowing that you had the power in your hand to grit things through, but you gave up? What story will you tell the bartender?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, this exact situation is kind of funny in a sick and twisted way, because after my divorce, I did not spend much time persuing women because I was unhappy and recovering. I met my W, who was bartending at the time. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Thanks,

EL

EL --

To clear up some of the confusion...

I am definitely not most people, and my take on your situation is different. You stated that in MB principles one goes giver psycho, until you are ready to get the other person involved. Others people seem to think you are ready for that point.

I do not. I think you are still in a transition period where you are ready and willing to give out your ears. After your W is out of withdrawal a little bit, then you can start discussing your own needs. But it really doesn't seem to me like your W is ready to hear it.

Which is why I think this is a terrible time to find a hill to die on. You are still working on getting to the point where your W and you and build agreement. You're not ready to deal with boundaries and power games.

I know this is a *huge* issue for both of you. That is why this is so important. The larger issues *must* wait until you've developped better habits of taking care of each other, because they are the ones that have the most hurt associated...

Right now, if you make a stand, you have *no* shot of your W being able to listen to you. Your R isn't that good right now.

If you wait until she's ready to see your side of things, and then make your stand... Then maybe she can see your side, and empathize. But right now? You're setting her up for failure.

Good Morning Myschae,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Hrm. Well, I am a bit at a loss for what to say. (isn't that a first?)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thats OK. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I understand that you're frustrated and, frankly, I really don't want to add to your frustration. You and I have very different perspectives and philosophies on many things on a sort of "the way things work" level. At times, I suspect that is helpful to you because it helps you consider alternate points of view. (I'm pretty safe to bounce ideas off as you're not likely to hurt my feelings.) On the other hand, I think it is a challenge to you because you don't feel AS validated as you possibly can and constantly bantering with a devil's advocate can be tiring. I may have reached the end of my usefulness here. That is not to say I’m abandoning you.. it's just recognition that perhaps what I have to say isn't as useful as what someone else might be able to offer.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh Mys, please do not feel this way. You definitely have not reached the end of your usefulness with me. I truly value your POV and with it being different to mine it has been extremely helpful. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Please do not stop writing and responding, I will promise to let you know when I cannot take talking things through with you anymore (like that would happen). I just am more passionate on some things than others, more hurt by some things than others. I look forward to how you would respond or react. You are currently filling a void that I have had for a very long time. You are someone I can relate to, who gives me a different POV that I can see and understand. If I loose your input now, I would feel lost (no pressure). <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It might not apply to your situation, but then again, perhaps it's food for thought. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You have it things right on the head. I see a lot of my W in your statements. I understand where she is coming from a little better now, thanks.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Where we differ is that you express it as a 'requirement' and I express it as a 'consequence'. They are similar but not exactly the same. And, I'm not sure it really matters as long as you know what I mean and I know what you mean. Did I get what you mean correct?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You sure did get what I meant. I understand what you are saying now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So, depending on which one you're trying to do – and doing both at once is .. confusing as we've discovered… would indicate what you do. Now, where you and I seem to differ is in how you define boundaries. You keep talking about having a boundary and getting her to agree. The two things don't really mix well in my way of looking at things or, in other words, I don't know how to help you do that.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess I am just confused as to what I want or feel a respectful M should be. Its not that you can't help me, its that Ican't give you enough to go on at times. I am sure you could help most people with any situation because you are practical and solution oriented.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If it is going to be a boundary then it is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to figure out what that means and give her that information. That's Radical Honesty.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your right here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> *sighs* I'm sorry about that. I hope you can find what you need. Again, I think we have enough differences in our approach at this stage that I honestly don't know how to get you where you want to go. I will continue to be around though and hope you find someone who has some closer ideas than I do.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Please do not stop posting with me. This is one issue and obviously my W and I have many. I am now where at the point of cutting the chord and I have confidence that we'll be ok. I am not there yet.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Some, but it's all mostly related and is probably a repeat of what I've been saying. You have to admit, I'm USUALLY fairly consistent.


Wishing you the best, as always,
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I still would like to get your opinions on things and situations.

I wish you the best as well. If you decide not to post anymore, you will be missed. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> I hope you change your mind.

Thanks for everything,

EL

CTJ -

I see your point.

EL

Woot! I'm glad.

I wish I'd said it that way, earlier... I think that's part of what Myschae's been driving at, as well... Maybe it was my turn to clear it...

BTW, my thread on boundaries and controlling behaviour is there to give you a different, uninvolved, perspective on the issues. Hopefully you can use it to understand where you're at and what you're trying to do, better.