CTJ -

Thanks for starting that thread. I thought it was interesting. Really - Broccoli? Anyway, looking back on things throughout this M, I see that I have always been consistent with my feelings on ex-bfs with my W. She has always been consistent on the stance of "I am who I am and this is who I am." I think we both have been trying to "change" eachother towards our own POVs.

Do I think my W can handle herself in a situation with another guy? Of course.

Do I wish we could prevent the situation before it arose? Of course.

Do I wish my W would take all the extra time and effort writing to me instead of any that is wasted on old ex-bfs? Of course.

Maybe some of this steems back to what I posted a while back. Basically, my W has always been able to put several things before "us." For instance, we moved to different state because of my changing jobs and our becoming pregnant. We had a baby and of course he needed a lot of attention. We built a new house. Currently my W gives a lot of attention to: our S, our three cats, our house & land scaping, being on the home owners board. All of these things are before me because of the hypersensitive situation we have both created. Therefore, any other extra activities beyond the ones I have noted, really hurt because they continue to take opportunities away from our being together and working on our M.

I do not know what to do for this week with regards to my W and our M. I am probably going to play things safe and remain a little standoffish to see how things play out.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I do not. I think you are still in a transition period where you are ready and willing to give out your ears. After your W is out of withdrawal a little bit, then you can start discussing your own needs. But it really doesn't seem to me like your W is ready to hear it.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So what you are saying is that I need to continue to bend/cave for a while until my W comes out of withdrawl further. I don't know. I thought we were ready to start reaching agreements.

You know I just had to talk to the MC about 10 minutes ago, because I realized I had scheduled our next session, when I could not make it. After we changed the date, I mentioned to her that I was struggling with the homework assignment she gave us. I said that I am having great difficulty with her having told my W to go ahead and sign "love" to her emails because this is a personal boundary with me. She said, "It is not going to get resolved over night." I said, "But I am really struggling with this." She said, "and thats ok to tell her." I said, "OK." and that was it. The MC's reaction just caused me more confusion because I would have hoped she would have said that my W should not sign "love" until we can both reach agreement. But I can see everyone elses point that my W is probably hurting just as much on the other side with not being able to sign love. Not the fact that she feels compelled to sing "love," but by the fact of the hypersensitivity to control.

EL

Okay... It looks like I got most of it across, but I wasn't clear on some of it... You are ready to start building agreement... BUT... You are not ready to start building agreement on big issues, where they are likely to become a hill to die on.

You need to start building agreement on small things. I mean, piddly stupid things like where to go dinner, etc... But you two are still too emotionally charged to deal with what is likely to be an intense negotiation over a large issue.

It's kind of like what I was saying in the Elephant in the living room discussion. When you're both covered in crap, you're not ready to talk about the elephant. You need to deal with enough crap and crap flinging to give you room to deal with the elephant.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She said, "It is not going to get resolved over night." I said, "But I am really struggling with this." She said, "and thats ok to tell her."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">For a while I was worried that your MC was a real crackpot... I think this helps to clarify her intent.

Right now, she's just trying to open lines of communication. She's forbidden powerplays and is helping you guys to first identify LB's. She's keeping you out of bad negotiation styles. But she's forcing you to communicate what is hurting you, so you can learn things about each other. She recognizes that you two are so busy hurting each other that you're not getting very far in negotiating.


So, basically... Start small with your negotiations... Negotiate right until you're ready for it. Wait until you *both* have enough emotional stakes to negotiate with, before you try to negotiate a big issue.

After all, the more we love someone, the more we are willing to sit down and negotiate with them.

Extremely Lost

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Oh Mys, please do not feel this way. You definitely have not reached the end of your usefulness with me. I truly value your POV and with it being different to mine it has been extremely helpful. Please do not stop writing and responding, I will promise to let you know when I cannot take talking things through with you anymore (like that would happen). I just am more passionate on some things than others, more hurt by some things than others. I look forward to how you would respond or react. You are currently filling a void that I have had for a very long time. You are someone I can relate to, who gives me a different POV that I can see and understand. If I loose your input now, I would feel lost (no pressure). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Awww.. I’m not frustrated or anything bad like that at all. So, don’t misunderstand. I think you’ve been pretty clear about what you’re trying to do. I just haven’t a clue about how to get you there. I can tell you how I would handle things but that doesn’t seem to take you where you want to go (except maybe ultimately). You know what I mean?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You have it things right on the head. I see a lot of my W in your statements. I understand where she is coming from a little better now, thanks. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I’m glad it helped. I’m not sure that’s exactly how your wife feels. I do wonder if she is wary of agreements because she’s not nearly as good at fulfilling them as you are. That possibility can be what’s holding her back. In general, people tend to gravitate towards things they think they are good at. If she feels that she fails or feels unsuccessful at agreements then she’s going to tend to want to gravitate towards other methods of doing things. As Dr. Phil is fond of saying “People do what works.” If building agreements doesn’t work for her, because she doesn’t feel successful at fulfilling them up to your high standards (I think it’s fair to say “failure is not an option” is pretty high stakes) then she’s going to have a hard time doing that. What you might need to do is find some way for her to be successful at it – ie. relax your standards or adopt a way that the problem becomes the AGREEMENT not a failure on the part of the person.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I guess I am just confused as to what I want or feel a respectful M should be. Its not that you can't help me, its that Ican't give you enough to go on at times. I am sure you could help most people with any situation because you are practical and solution oriented. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I do think you have some work to do in figuring it out. Part of the problem is that a lot of the work you need to be doing WITH your wife..

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I still would like to get your opinions on things and situations. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, since you asked, let me give you my perspective on your homework assignment.

I think you’re missing the point somewhat of the assignment. The assignment, as I visualize it, is simply to gather information about how often you and your wife hurt each other. I think there is a very good reason not to go into trying to fix everything as it comes up because that hasn’t been working for either of you.

Currently when you try to fix things, you end up getting bogged down in details of this and that. Just gathering information to find out what areas are going wrong is a good way to start some dialogue later. But if you run around trying to fix everything at once it’s bound to get messy.

So, I don’t see this as an exercise in hurting each other. In fact, it’s not so much that you’re supposed to go out of your way TO hurt each other; instead you’re supposed to find out what things you do each and every day (probably without thinking) that DOES hurt each other. Then, my hope would be at some future point, she’s going to have you two come in with your data, sit down, and work on building agreements. Part of this is to learn a little patience (yes, patience… *nudge*) and part of it is learning to do one thing at a time and not getting so distracted about everything else. You’re so worried about step #33 you’re missing the value of step 1.

Unfortunately, this homework assignment came at a bad time and right in the middle of this messy email issue. *sighs* Which just makes it harder and muddies things up.

On the subject of withdrawing making things easier – I have a couple of comments. One, I think there is some learning to be had here. Many of us have been suggesting that you take some of the focus off of her for a while. It’s clear that she likes that. But, taking the focus off of her and abandoning all hope and plans to work on the marriage are not the same thing. You can focus on your son. You can focus on things besides improving your marriage 100% of the time. And, you can still be open to improving things. It’s all about balance. There is value in having some detachment so that you’re not constantly feeling in a warzone of emotional strife. But that does not have to equate to being withdrawn so that your wife is unable to reach you. Can you work on finding that place of balance?

Mys

EL --

There was something I missed getting back to, earlier... I'm a real scatter brain, today. Anyway, here's the obligatory quote:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe some of this steems back to what I posted a while back. Basically, my W has always been able to put several things before "us." For instance, we moved to different state because of my changing jobs and our becoming pregnant. We had a baby and of course he needed a lot of attention. We built a new house. Currently my W gives a lot of attention to: our S, our three cats, our house & land scaping, being on the home owners board. All of these things are before me because of the hypersensitive situation we have both created. Therefore, any other extra activities beyond the ones I have noted, really hurt because they continue to take opportunities away from our being together and working on our M.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You may be making a mistake that I made early in my marriage. My wife has this personality quirk. When there's soemthing to be done, it drives her crazy, unless she's doing it. It gives her a lot of drive and she just has to get things done. Downside is, she doesn't put as much time into "us" stuff as I would like.

In fact, this is part of the set of issues that nearly obliterated our relationship during engagement and our first year of marriage. Independent activity is a *huge* LB for me. So my W would try to get this stuff done that is driving her crazy, and I would be push my buttons left and right, and I would DJ her saying how she doesn't care. (It's not that she doesn't care... It's just that she can't have any peace of mind to do anything with me, while she's got other stuff weighing on her.)


So... I can't give you a great amount of solace here but to say that... IA may be a really big LB for you. But your W isn't trying to make your M less of a priority. She's just trying to get things done.

Conversely, you may find that your W has a high EN for Domestic Support and Family Involvement. You might be able to set yourself up for a win win situation by helping her as much as possible, and then reaping the benefits as she gets more free time. Try to minimize *your* extra projects so you can help her with hers.

Well CTJ and Mys,

I have read through both of your posts and like your suggestions. I just had a conversation with my W. It sort of was an argument, she would call it one anyway, but I really listened and think I got some good information. However, I need some help with decifering it and get some suggestions. Here goes:

I called my W to tell her that I rescheduled the MC session because I realized I could not make it. It turns out the time I rescheduled it for, she cannot make it. I said, "sorry for that, I will reschedule it again." She said, "Why can't you go by yourself?" I said, "Well, I thought about that and considered even suggesting this to you with regards to my not being able to make the first appointment, but then I realized we have this homework assignment we are working on together and that it probably would be best for both of us to go together." She said, "So now you can't go by yourself, and you think I should go by myself. I knew this was all a sham just to get me to go to MC. You started off saying you wanted to go for you. Then you said the C was requesting that I go and it turned into MC. So you are saying you are now fine and everything about you is OK." I took a deep breath, clenched my fists and said, "Hold on honey. First of all I am going to be the first to admit that I am not OK. My going to C originally for me was genuine. The MC did consistently request your presences. I need for us to go to MC to work on our M, while I also work on me. However, I also need for you to understand that there are two of us in this M. There are things I have done in our past that have caused you hurt, and I accept this, apologize for this and desire to work on never hurting you again. I need for you to not make the same mistake that I did. It took me four years, even with you explaining what I was doing, to really realize how I was hurting you and that I had some really bad habits. Please do not make the same mistakes I did and take four years to realize that at times you are also hurting me. I understand that some of your hurting me probably comes from reacting to my hurting you, but I need for you to realize that you hurt me." She said, "You know what hurts me and how you have been. If you fix your issues, we will be ok. End of story." I said, "Maybe you are not willing or wanting to accept that both of us hurt each other at this point. This is fine, I understand that you may need more time. I do not believe that if all of my own issues were completely gone, we would be great." She said, "You have been moping around in a bad mood for three days." I said, "First of all, I have not been moping and it is not fair to say that I was. Secondly, I have been distant and withdrawn because I needed some space to consider my feelings on things. The really odd thing to me is that during these couple of days, I feel you have treated me better than you have when I am completely nice and not withdrawn." She said, "That is not true. How I treat you has not changed at all. You are just realizing it more." I said, "You cooked dinner the other night, you cleaned my car and you said 'good night, I love you, see you in the morning.' all of which are positive signs to me. You did not do much of this before when I was nice the entire week before." She said, "That is not true, I have cooked you dinner before. This was the only time I had to clean out your car because you always have it. You have been moping around ever since you asked for SF!" I said, "What a minute, this is not true. My withdrawing is not because you turned me down for SF. It is because of how you still react to how you THINK I will react without giving me the chance TO react." She said, "I am used to you being in this mood once in a while. I am still trying to figure out if I even want to go to this wedding." I said, "why is that?" She said, "because weddings are supposed to be fun." I said, "They can be." She said, "they aren't because of how you react to my friends. You do not value friendship the way I do." I said, "The only consideration as to whether you go to the wedding or not is how I will react and not make this wedding fun for you? This is what I am talking about and what causes me to withdrawl. Basically, you have decided that I am going to act a certain way and therefore will not have fun at some function with me and decide not to go and are upset because we did not go. Meanwhile, I never get the chance to ever show you I have changed because you are not allowing me to be in a situation to change." She said, "Well, you do react that way." I said, "Five months ago I did. We have been to a wedding since then and you had these same concerns and everything turned out alright." She said, "That was family, this is friends. This is the group you have a problem with." I said, "Honey, at some point you have to take a leap of faith and let me show you I have changed. I am willing to wait until you are comfortable because I do love you, but this is extremely frustrating for me. How would you feel if there was some major formal business thing and I said I did not want to take you because I was worried about how you would act?" She says, "I cannot relate to that question because I have never given you a reason to worry." I said, "I need the chance at some point. but I do not want to go to the wedding if you decide to go and then treat me a certain way because you have completely stressed yourself out over what I might do based on when I could not recognize my bad behavior." She said, "You just had a problem with an email to one of my friends! You do not want me to have any contact with my friends." I said, "wait a minute, we are talking about two different things here. I said I have a problem with you signing 'love' to friends. I do not have a problem with you having appropriate contact with your friends." She said, "I never had inappropriate contact with my friends!" I said, "I was not saying that you have had inappropriate contact with your friends. What I said was that I am fine with you having appropriate contact with your friends, but it hurts me when you sign 'love' to htem. This is me, not you. It is how I feel." She said, "How about how I am hurt because I feel controled or that I can't decide who I can have contact with?" I said, "I am not trying to restrict who you have contact with, I am asking for us to be able to reach an agreement that would protect both of us from future hurt." She said, "let me think about what I want to do about this wedding." I said, "OK."

Now there are some small points that I have missed, but this is the jist of it. I tried to be as MBish as possible, but our conversations change drastically. I also tried to keep things on topic. I believe we have agreed to reschedule the MC and that she is going to make a decision about whether we go to this wedding or not.

Anyway, let me know what you think. Maybe you guys get a little more understanding of her side from this. Oh yeah, and by the way, she made a comment about my being on this site. It started off by her saying she is just so sick of all of this. I said, "what do you mean, sick of all of this? I have not been talking to you about any of our M lately." She said, "We did for an hour this week." I said, "You mean MC, well if that is the only time we are allowed to talk about things we will never get better." She said, "and you write to people on that website." I said, "you are more than welcome to go on the site." She said, "I cannot believe you write complete strangers and tell them about us." I said, "All I am allowed is to go to MC with you and talk to people on this site. You tell me when we can talk about us, one on one. You do not talk to me when I get home, during dinner or when we go to bed. those are the only times I see you other than weekends and you do not accept talking about us or our M. So what do you want me to do. I need to talk about it, you do not want to talk about it and all you allow me is the MC session, so I need to talk to the people on this site. It is because of this site and the people on it that I have gotten to where I am now over these last five months." She said, "we are talking about it now." I said, "yes, we are and I am excited about it because we do not get this opportunity much."

You see, this is typical, she says she is sick of all this, meaning sick of talking about it. Well, that would be ok if we actually were allowed to talk about it.

So please let me know what you think.

Mys - this means you as well. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Thanks,

EL

Initial reaction from CTJ (That's me) --

Next time she brings up the website, mention that we consistently give you a hard time for not seeing her POV, and that we spend all of our time trying to show you her POV.

Second initial reaction -->

She needs time to see the new you.

She could be helped with a carefully constructed epiphany.


She feels like she's dealt with hypersensitivity issues. She's probably going to test those boundaries for a while. That may be why you were allowed to see that email with the "love" in it, in the first place. She was checking to see if you really had changed.

And yes, you were moping. ;-D I think that's what that kind of withdrawn reaction is called. :-D

Extremely Lost

You know what you need? You need a closer. You consistently get to the same point in the conversation and veer off track.

I find myself somewhat curious about your line of work. Ok, here’s some creative homework for you…. and I wonder if anyone on this site can help us out here… can you find a good book on Salesmanship? I’ve never had a sales job but I’ve done a bit of training and I’ve looked at some curriculum about it. There are some good techniques in there (if I remember right) about staying focused, asking for the sale (what you want), and closing the deal. Somehow reading that conversation, I thought to myself.. the problem is you both are in this dance and neither of you is a closer.

I frame it as solution oriented. But, there are a lot of techniques in the area of sales that might be helpful. Is anyone reading this thread familiar with books or websites on the subject of Sales and communication?

I’m not trying to turn you into a used car salesman or anything… I’m just noticing a consistent pattern that pervades your conversations. There are many paths to an end. Perhaps investing in learning a new communication style (even one that is presented in a non-relationship format) would be instructive.

On the other hand.. maybe I’m just going nuts. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Mys

WOW, what a post...I must admit I skipped some pages just for the shear volume of info, but it's really opened my eyes to some of my recent behaviors with my H.

The one thing I didn't see anywhere in here (although, again, I didn't read every single page) was her definition and feelings when she signs the word "love" at the bottom of her e-mails. I'm not even attempting advice as I'm in absolutely no position to offer any. But if the word "love" is so hurtful to you and she doesn't attach much meaning to it, maybe it would help you to see her POV if you two could see how she views or "feels" about the word "love" when she is signing something like an email or letter.

I know how I view it and see it.

Hope I didn't step on toes or chime in inappropriately. I know the problem goes so much deeper than that, but maybe it's a small step?????

Hey guys,

Actually, I really do not have a problem "closing" business deals. This is not a problem. It just seems that for what ever reason, nothing works with my W. I happen to have another example since she just called me again.

Me, "Hello." Her, "Hello, I just wanted to know what you want for dinner because I am on my way to pickup S and I am not cooking." Me, "Oh, are you sore?" Her, "Yes, I have worked outside all day." Me, "I do not have a prefference, what do you feel like?" Her, "I do not know. I know you are more picky about what we get for dinner." Me, "I actually am not picky, I could go for subs, pizza, italian, hamburgers, chinese, really whatever you preffer." Her, "Chinese does not have a drive through." Me, "No, but they have take out." Her, "I am not taking our S into a chinese R and waiting 45 minutes for food." Me, "Actually, I have gotten take out before and it really does not take any longer than getting a sub." Her, "Well, you are talking a lot about chinese, does this mean this is what you want?" Me, "As I said, before, I really am fine with whatever you pick because I know you are not a big fan of chinese." Her, "look, this was supposed to be a quick phone call. It was not supposed to take 10 minutes." Me, "Fine, I will be ok with whatever you pick." Her, "Fine." Me, "good-bye." Her, "good-bye." Me, "I love you!" - She hung up before I got the 'I love you' out.

This really makes me happy that I tried to come out of the withdrawing from her, just to have her slam me right back down. I do not even feel like going home.

What is your take on this?

EL

My take?

Stop arguing with her impressions of you. You won't get any where. She's going to have to realize you're not a schlep on her own. If she says your picky, then in her eyes your picky. It's her right to have that POV. Don't argue with her about it.

I think my wife is obsessive about doing things, she thinks she's just getting things done. She thinks I'm unmotivated. I think I have low energy.

Discussing motives, one way or another is a trap that can't be won.

ok. I've been lurking. I'm looking to procrastinate at work so I'll jump in here for a spell <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Me, "Hello." Her, "Hello, I just wanted to know what you want for dinner because I am on my way to pickup S and I am not cooking." Me, "Oh, are you sore?" Her, "Yes, I have worked outside all day." Me, "I do not have a prefference, what do you feel like?" </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So far so good. Good job on picking up her reason for not wanting to cook.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Her, "I do not know. I know you are more picky about what we get for dinner." Me, "I actually am not picky, I could go for subs, pizza, italian, hamburgers, chinese, really whatever you preffer." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The decline starts. It isn't nice of her to say picky. But it isn't necessary that you "prove" her wrong here. You could just say that you're open to eating x,y, and z tonight. I have this issue with H. H is much more picky about what he eats. It's not a bad thing. It's just that his list of yummy foods is smaller than mine.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Her, "Chinese does not have a drive through." Me, "No, but they have take out." Her, "I am not taking our S into a chinese R and waiting 45 minutes for food." Me, "Actually, I have gotten take out before and it really does not take any longer than getting a sub." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Way off track now! You are both getting into this deal where you have to be right. What does it matter how long they take if you don't actually want Chinese? </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Her, "Well, you are talking a lot about chinese, does this mean this is what you want?" Me, "As I said, before, I really am fine with whatever you pick because I know you are not a big fan of chinese." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your wife is trying to get back on track and be sensitive here. You are making a case for why chinese would be an ok thing to get. There are no barriers to Chinese. We get that. Her assumption is then that you wnat chinese because you are concerned with making sure she knows that chinese is an option. You response is likely to ocnfuse her when you say that you don't actually have a prefernce. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Her, "look, this was supposed to be a quick phone call. It was not supposed to take 10 minutes." Me, "Fine, I will be ok with whatever you pick." Her, "Fine." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now wife is confused and irritated. She probably sees it as a nice thing that she is asking your preference. and even better that she tried to secretly guess your preference and suggest it to allow you to agree without deciding all yourself - and an even bigger gesture since you say she doesn't like chinese much! And then she is frustrated when she has to pick herself. And that is was such a contentious discussion. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Me, "good-bye." Her, "good-bye." Me, "I love you!" - She hung up before I got the 'I love you' out.

This really makes me happy that I tried to come out of the withdrawing from her, just to have her slam me right back down. I do not even feel like going home.

What is your take on this?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sorry. But where is the part where she slammed you? And where is the part that you came out of withdrawal?

I feel like your wife could sneeze and you would somehow understand it to mean she didn't want to take your feelings into consideration. Or that she doesn't want to make things better.

Maybe try and reread the exchange and ascribe to your W the most positive, kind, and loving intentions that you can... rather than the most selfish, mean intentions that you typically give her. See if that makes you feel any different about the conversation.

my .02

lfc
*activates cloaking device*

Something noone as picked up on yet just struck me...

She called you.

She was too sore to make dinner, so instead of just going out and getting whatever she wanted (after all, she was sore, she needed some good food to help her feel better) she called you to give *you* a choice.

And, yeah, lfc was right... That argument over whether Chinese was an option, if you don't care? Never get into an argument you don't have a stake in. If she says no chinese and you don't care if there's Chinese or not, don't waste energy.

I say this because I do the *exact* same stupid thing. I've got this nasty habit about wanting everyone around me to be correct. (whether I'm actually correct or not!)

Wow, I'd be cranky with someone who talked to me the way you talked to your wife in this conversation.

She was considerate and asked for your preference. You didn't give one, so she stated that she was concerned she might pick something you didn't like, since there are fewer choices you like in her perception. So then you argue with her choice of words. I can see why she'd be frustrated when she's trying to be considerate.

Ok, so then you've reached a point where there's a list of options. She raises an objection to one -- chinese has no drive-through. Since neither of you has expressed a preference for one of the many options, any objection by either of you to one choice should be enough to knock it off the list and you can decide from among what's left. But then you start arguing with her objection to that choice -- what was the point of that? Why on earth would you argue with her objection, unless, as she thought, you really wanted chinese?

I understand you're frustrated with this conversation, but honestly it seems to me that you were the one being argumentative and unpleasant, not your wife.

OK guys,

I am taking what you are saying on board. One of my issues that caused the "what to have for dinner" conversation was that my W always does this to me. She NEVER (I know this is a strong word, but a necessary one) picks something. I know her POV is that I am more picky. In reality this is totally untrue. What else happened is that I said, "how about hamburgers? She said, "we have gotten McDonalds a couple times over this last two weeks." I said, "How about Pizza?" She said, "We ate Italian last night." You see? Who is the more picky one here. This happens all the time. She asks me what I want to do. Then she comes up with reasons not to do what I recommend. I have learned to not recommend anymore. The personal kicker that is insulting to me, although it may be her POV, is that she feels I am actually more picky. You could ask anyone else that knows us and they would tell you this is totally not true. I realize, no one else matters and this is between her and I. I also realize being right does not necessarily make things better. I am just asking that you guys understand just how incredibly frustrating this situation becomes.

I am starting to form an opinion as to a major underlying issue I have with my W. I touched upon it briefly yesterday, but the more I think about it, the more I realize the entire scope of this issue. 1) She does not want to go to a wedding because she THINKS I will act in some manner she will not like. 2) She will not do some things, because she THINKS I will say or do something she will not like. 3) She will not pick a resturant for dinner because she THINKS I will not like it. Is anyone else here seeing the same underlying theme?

This is what I was trying to reflect upon yesterday. My frustrations come from my W having this pretend me in her subconcious and it causes her to react to me as if the pretend me was real. She is not allowing the real me to make choices or decisions as to how I would like to react. Instead, she has decided how I might react and has taken this as real. This is incredibly frustrating and not really conducive to allowing me to show her that I am not as bad as the "pretend me." I am very tired of fighting the pretend me for attention in my W's mind. I do not know how to improve this issue.

Using the example of yesterday with regards to the wedding coming up. She is undecided about going because she thinks she will not have fun with me because I will not behave how she thinks I should. She admits, that the last wedding we were at was just fine and different to the others we had went to in the past, yet she writes my progress off as "that was family, this is my friends." Do you see how, even though I work very hard at trying to show her I care and am trying to improve on what she feels is important, I do not really get anywhere?

It is the same thing with the dinner last night. I am not picky, nor have I ever shown her I am picky. Even thought I understand all of your points with regards to her POV, I cannot keep combatting things that are made up, for whatever reason. I have never been picky in my entire life, ok, I do not like tomatoes, but I like tomatoe sauce and I am not a fan of liver etc.. but, this is about it. Do you see what I am saying? I am not saying I am perfect and I do everything right, but it is like she does not know me at all and keeps making things up that have no foundation to be based upon. How would you guys deal with this? Let me make up a scenario for you:

Your spouse comes up to you. You have on a red shirt, a red ball cap, you drive a red car and you're a fan of the Red Sox (ok stretching on this a bit). Your spouse says, "I do not know why you do not like the color red!," and they are serious. You are confused and do not understand why they would make such a statement. You ask and point out the obvious, yet they insist that you do not like red. You go on a website like this one and learn that your spouse has a differenet POV that should be respected, not questioned and that it is not a good idea to try and convince your spouse that her POV is wrong. Now you are left with accepting her POV and living with your spouse believing you do not like red. This is particular frustrating because you LOVE red, its your favorite color. When you try to approach your spouse one final time and ask them why they think you do not like red, they say, "You never have." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> So what do you do in this situation. Do the normal rules apply and you respect the spouses POV even though it is completely off the wall? This is the same as substituting the word "picky" in for red, by the way.

The fact remains that it is nearly impossible to reason with someone if they refuse to use reason themselves. I am not trying to discount people's different POVs or devalue them in any way. I am just trying to get an understanding about at what point do you really say, "This is rediculous?"

Anyway, moving on, I got home last night to a slightly disgruntled W and I ate dinner (her and S already ate). She was outside working and I asked her why she was still working if she is sore. She said, she wanted too. This does not make sense to me because I know for the rest of the night she will be sore and will not be able to do anything with me or S because of it. She claimed she could not even cook because she was too sore, and now she is back out working in the yard. This shows me that she is not too sore to do something she WANTS to do. Unfortunately, family time does not appear to be a WANT. So, my S is wanting to do something special and I decide to take him to hit golf balls again, since he loves doing this right now. I ask my W (this time) if she would like to join us. She says no. I said, "OK, well see you later." My S and I have a great time. I get back home and my W has a neighbor woman with her 3 year old over and they were drinking wine coolers. After we got home, my W changed into pajamas and layed on the couch and said she is too sore to do anything else.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Go ahead and hit me over the head again.

EL

No 2x4's today...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am taking what you are saying on board. One of my issues that caused the "what to have for dinner" conversation was that my W always does this to me. She NEVER (I know this is a strong word, but a necessary one) picks something. I know her POV is that I am more picky. In reality this is totally untrue. What else happened is that I said, "how about hamburgers? She said, "we have gotten McDonalds a couple times over this last two weeks." I said, "How about Pizza?" She said, "We ate Italian last night." You see? Who is the more picky one here. This happens all the time. She asks me what I want to do. Then she comes up with reasons not to do what I recommend. I have learned to not recommend anymore. The personal kicker that is insulting to me, although it may be her POV, is that she feels I am actually more picky. You could ask anyone else that knows us and they would tell you this is totally not true. I realize, no one else matters and this is between her and I. I also realize being right does not necessarily make things better. I am just asking that you guys understand just how incredibly frustrating this situation becomes.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I totally understand... To be honest, I've been in that situation and by the end of it, I wanted to kick my W. Not that I did, but... Bleh!

At this point, you've got everything nailed. I understand your frustration with your wife's perception of you. I could go on and on about how you've earned it, but that's really irrelevant.

The only way to change your W's perception of you is going to be to give her consistent examples of how you've changed. And that probably means a year of work. (Yes, a stinking year. That's mostly a guess, based on how long it took me to start changing my W's perceptions. I agree that's terrible.) Peoples perceptions just *don't* change that fast, particularly when they've become ingrained over 4 years. But, as she has said, "She's still here." That means that you have time, if you have the energy.

I just don't know of another way to get around this. You can't *tell* someone "I've changed" and have them believe it. And it just takes *time* for people to see it. And when you screw up, it feels like one step forward, two steps back. That's the process my W and I are working through.

Basically, what I'm saying is that this is going to be a daily grind of doing the right thing, realizing that right now, your W still think you are who you were, say, 2 years ago.

The good news is, as your limits are tested, if you come through, she'll notice. But she will test your limits.

When the email thing comes up, and you can say, "I understand that you are not cheating on me, and this is an acceptable action in your eyes" without giving her grief over it, you will score points.

When you go to the wedding and hang out with her and her friends, and you have fun, and you don't have an emotional reaction even though you feel like a third wheel, and she ignores you more than you would ultimately like... That'll score you points, too.

But, you won't be alone. We'll be here to help you look at how you could have done something better, and help you to get prepared.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am starting to form an opinion as to a major underlying issue I have with my W. I touched upon it briefly yesterday, but the more I think about it, the more I realize the entire scope of this issue. 1) She does not want to go to a wedding because she THINKS I will act in some manner she will not like. 2) She will not do some things, because she THINKS I will say or do something she will not like. 3) She will not pick a resturant for dinner because she THINKS I will not like it. Is anyone else here seeing the same underlying theme? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes... But I also see you doing things that contribute very powerfully to her perception.

Example: You tell her you have no preference, but then you argue with her because she doesn't want to wait inside a Chinese restaurang, telling her that you have never had to wait.

Why did you argue with her about this? Why did you argue with her about being picky? Isn't it possible that her perception that you are picky is based on something that you do, despite the fact that you *know* you aren't *actually* picky?

What do you think might happen if you had said, "I love that you thought of me. I will be happy with whatever you get." And then MEAN IT. WHen you get home, lavish appreciation on her for getting dinner and relish the meal.

My husband denies that he is critical of what I prepare, but then he is always adding extra things after I cook for him, or coming into the kitchen to "help". Maybe this isn't anything like you--and maybe it's irrelevant, but he thinks he's being helpful. I think he's being controlling. Hence, I don't cook for him anymore.

Maybe you are doing things that DESPITE YOUR BEST INTENTIONS are understandably communicating negative things to your wife.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My frustrations come from my W having this pretend me in her subconcious and it causes her to react to me as if the pretend me was real. She is not allowing the real me to make choices or decisions as to how I would like to react. Instead, she has decided how I might react and has taken this as real. This is incredibly frustrating and not really conducive to allowing me to show her that I am not as bad as the "pretend me." I am very tired of fighting the pretend me for attention in my W's mind. I do not know how to improve this issue. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Quit fighting the image with your words. Stop arguing with her and trying to get her to respond differently (that is actually you trying to control her). Let her think what she wants, and then choose to act in a way that is in line with who you believe and want yourself to be.

For example, quit arging with her about the wedding. Tell her, "Look, I udnerstand why you would be concerned. But I am really excited about going to this wedding, and I think it will be really fun to be with you. So I'm planning on going with you."

The let it DROP. Quite trying to pursuade her that you've changed. The more you fight to pursuade her that you've changed, the more you demonstrate that you HAVEN'T actually changed.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you see how, even though I work very hard at trying to show her I care and am trying to improve on what she feels is important, I do not really get anywhere? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Unfortunately, you are showing her that you care by using words and ARGUING with her. this accomplishes exactly the opposite of what you wish.

instead, ignore her negative comments. Pretend she is testing you, and hoping that this time, you will let her say what she wants without arguing and defending.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is the same thing with the dinner last night. I am not picky, nor have I ever shown her I am picky. Even thought I understand all of your points with regards to her POV, I cannot keep combatting things that are made up, for whatever reason. I have never been picky in my entire life, ok, I do not like tomatoes, but I like tomatoe sauce and I am not a fan of liver etc.. but, this is about it. Do you see what I am saying? I am not saying I am perfect and I do everything right, but it is like she does not know me at all and keeps making things up that have no foundation to be based upon. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Exactly. You have decided that her perspective is completely invalid because YOU know you are not *picky*. Why justify this to anyone? To anyone else OR to her? What would happen if you asked her, "What makes you say I'm picky?" And then listened to her response and let it go.

You come across as being very very argumentative with your wife, it is all over every post.

I'm going to be harsh. If you want your wife to trust you then KEEP YOUR MOUTH CLOSED when you have a difference of opinion about something. Either ask her what she has observed that would make her say you are picky, or say simply "Hmnnnn... and then MOVE ON."

Your ego is going to have to rise above her perception of you--because it isn't so insane that she holds it.

Good luck, EL. I hope that you can turn things around. But you are the only one that can make the first change.

<small>[ September 10, 2004, 10:49 AM: Message edited by: Telly ]</small>

Extremely Lost

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This is what I was trying to reflect upon yesterday. My frustrations come from my W having this pretend me in her subconcious and it causes her to react to me as if the pretend me was real. She is not allowing the real me to make choices or decisions as to how I would like to react. Instead, she has decided how I might react and has taken this as real. This is incredibly frustrating and not really conducive to allowing me to show her that I am not as bad as the "pretend me." I am very tired of fighting the pretend me for attention in my W's mind. I do not know how to improve this issue. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is exactly what a DJ is and why it is so very, very harmful. Your wife is using DJ’s about what you think/feel/want instead of asking you and allowing you to choose. It’s a problem. I know you’re barred from using the phrase “disrespectful” to your wife… and you’re not going to be the most effective person to bring this up with your wife, either. I’m confused about the MC session. If you get to go by yourself, why not describe this feeling to your MC and ask for her help in getting through.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The fact remains that it is nearly impossible to reason with someone if they refuse to use reason themselves. I am not trying to discount people's different POVs or devalue them in any way. I am just trying to get an understanding about at what point do you really say, "This is rediculous?" </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well.. first it is a DJ on your part to assume the other person isn’t using “reason” the other person almost certainly has “reasons” for why s/he does what s/he does. Those reasons might not follow a path that YOU would take, but assuming they don’t exist and that your spouse (or anyone else) is just a floating mass of arbitrary contradictions with no basis in some experienced reality is unhelpful. DJ’s generally come from somewhere. They’re still damaging but they do originate from some experience somewhere. For example, it’s hard to make a DJ about someone you’ve never heard of and have no information about.

I want to look for a past post…. which might be helpful here.

Mys

Blah. I can't find the old post, I'll have to reconstruct it - which will take some time.

How does anyone use this search engine anyway. Yeesh.

Mys