Here's the difference Dude, and it cannot be any more blatant than the names of the programs.

Divorce Busters has as it goal the prevention of divorce. The entire thrust is apparently to "nice" the WS back to the marriage. It is MUCH more effective for a BW whose WH is just getting a piece on the side, but does not seriously have a hook into the wayward life. "Whatever you do, don't serve me those papers; I'll do anything you want." Think: Neville Chamberlain!

Marriage Builders is not content to have as a goal merely non-divorce. The ultimate target is to have a strong, supportive union between the spouses as the dust settles. To do that, especially in the BH/WW arena, there must be conflict, in essence killing the wayward inclination with whatever tools exist, with the idea of laying the groundwork for a much better future. Think: Winston Churchill!

So does one want to FIGHT, or HOPE? Remember one thing: Being served divorce papers does not end a marriage.

As for contacting the OM before exposure: ABSOLUTELY NOT! You would be yielding initiative in this most important of fights to the team of enemies arrayed against you right now. WW's immediate reaction would be a mass e-mail to everyone explaining how you are having massive insecurity issues, and actually think she is betraying you! OMG - Can you believe it?

So, is you bias toward ACTION, or WISHFUL THINKING?

Exactly.

MB receives posters from DB because DB does not teach you how to have a wonderful romantic M.

L&F - I think it would be a good idea to e-mail Dr. Harley about the timing of your exposure. You can e-mail him at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com

Divorce Busters is probably about the worst marriage program there is because their plan is to ENABLE the affair and stay in the marriage at all cost. We have people who came here from DB and followed Marriage Builders and saved their marriages. Enabling an affair makes it very, very hard to save. They have a very low success rate with their plan. Marriage Builders plan of exposure and Plan A and Plan B is around 50% success rate.

One such DB refugee is SunnyDinTx, who is now in a fully recovered marriage because she abandoned DB and came here and used MB concepts.

Their plan is very appealing, though, to conflict avoiders and enablers. Michele Wiener Davis is not a psychologist like Dr Harley, btw.


No. Going to "therapy" is a waywards dream because it takes the focus off the affair.


You should do this AFTER you expose, not before.

This is not true. Exposure ruins the affair. It helps the affairees see themselves through the eyes of others, which serves as a cold splash of water. Affairs thrive on secrecy so keeping it a secret only fuels the affair.

I will just tell you that taking a complacent approach reflects a lack of caring and it comes across that way, especially to wayward wives.

Helping a WS hide an affair is nothing more than enabling. And enabling is not an act of love, it is an act of INDIFFERENCE.

I can't second this enough!!!

Believe me, Lost, I know the appeal of the DB program. It SOUNDS really good and it kept me tied up for months! It makes me a bit angry when I think back, actually. Had I not wasted months on DB it is highly likely that my H's affair would have not gone from an EA to a PA. Those months I wasted allowed the A to grow and the attachment become so strong that my H visited the OW in her state - twice - where it became physical. If I had used MB principles sooner rather than later, more than likely the A would have been killed quickly while still in the early stages.

AS SOON as I employed MB principles, things got better in my sitch. Sure, it was hard; not going to say it didn't take courage and trust - it did - every ounce that I had at that time. IT WAS WORTH IT. It was worth every ounce of fear and emotional upheaval I went through - because it saved ME. It saved my marriage! There are no guarantees but I can tell you for certain that my marriage would have been doomed to a slow death with DB!!!

I was fortunate enough that while I was on the DB forums there were one or two dissenters that believed in Exposure - it had worked for them. It was good that I had listened to them and found my way here when any talk of Exposure on the DB forums was no longer allowed - at least not in a positive light.

My H's affair ended in Oct. 2010. We have been in recovery every since then using MB - and my H will tell you it is GOLD. We are happier than ever - celebrating our 22nd anniversary this Saturday! I have a thread on the Recovery forum. Had one on SAA when all this went down too. (You can see my links.)

I am happy to answer any questions you have in how I switched over from DB to MB.

The 180s - all that stuff - some of that you can utilize in doing a good Plan A.... but that's about as far as you can get with it. Not exposing is the WORST advice that could ever be given when a spouse is involved in an affair!

Get your stuff together. EXPOSE!


I will try and write more later as I'm running off to an appointment - but wanted to add my 2cents at least, from someone who's been in both places.

Just to add.... therapy certainly did NOT work in my sitch! In fact, I even drug my H to a "Save your Marriage" weekend which also did not work. AND...it even used SOME of Dr. Harley's work. SOME: that was the problem. It mixed in other stuff which did not force an end to the affair. (Of course, at the time I had no proof of an A - just suspected.)

I tried just about everything; until I found out about the A and exposed, none of it worked to better or save my marriage.

Thanks Sunny!

Another point about DB and the DB forums.

On the DB forums it seems the 180 plan is often/always presented as "go dark" and "get a life" wherefore you are to set about ignoring your spouse and hoping to manipulate them into missing you or wondering what you are up to. However this really isn't always in accordance with what Michelle Weiner-Davis instructs as a 180.

Consider this quote from Why You Haven�t Seen Change in Your Marriage (and What You Can Do to Fix It)
by Michele Weiner-Davis
:



How does this apply to you? I'd suggest that a true 180 plan for you would be trying something different LIKE EXPOSURE, STANDING UP FOR YOUR MARRIAGE and ACCEPTING UNCERTAINTY. Enabling, begging, pleading, acquiescing "hasn't worked" so go for it "do a 180" . Exposure is YOUR "easier done than said".

When Michelle says "Act As If"...I think that too would be useful for you. ... After exposure when she goes nuts (as they always do) "act as if" you are extremely confident in your decision to speak the truth and fight for your her and your marriage even though deep inside YOU are scared and nervous about your decision and, perhaps, even regretting it [briefly]. She won't understand or like exposure one bit but her fury will subside faster if and when she realizes she can't manipulate you any longer into believing keeping her (and OM's) secrets is your responsibility. In Plan A, you CAN apologize for her feelings ("I'm sorry you are upset") as you want to keep her TALKING to you so you can continue to meet any emotional needs she'll allow you to.

Your wife is addicted to OM. If you sit back and do nothing to disrupt her addiction...she'll be somewhat pleasant and nice to you. This is strictly an attempt to pacify you. OM is her focus NOT your feelings or best interests. Disrupt her addiction and she'll fight like heck. Since busting up the affair is the only chance you have to save your marriage...there is no getting there without messing with her addiction and thus, infuriating her.

Infuriating her through EXPOSURE is therefore technically YOUR Michelle Weiner-Davis 180 plan.


Later on...if unsuccessful...you can "go dark" in an MB Plan B.

Very astute analysis, MW!

Agree 1000%!

Hi All,

All I can say at this point in time is WOW. Thank you all so much for taking the inclination of putting finger to keyboard and parting with your knowledge and time to assist a complete stranger in a very dark period of their lives. It amazes me the extent that some people will go to assist another human being. It gives me faith that all is not lost in humanity in our time and age.

I am at work at the moment so will comment in full on progress my side and your opinions when I have a moment later today. I also need to reread these posts and let all the nuggets of information sink in.

I suppose this is just a quick thanks to everyone for giving a very lonely person some hope. Being in remote China, living in hotels far away from any English speaking people for the past 6 months can test even the toughest mental attitude.

Ok, having read through all your posts again and read some of your stories (gawd I thought mine was bad) I am convinced MB is the program to follow. Goodbye DB. Thanks a million everyone again, some really insightful words were put down that hit home hard.

An update. I spoke to the WW a minute ago. She was at work so could not really chat. The main point of conversation was that I wanted to know what was happening with the passports, we were robbed and she ordered replacements. So it was intended to be quite business like.

She suspects that I am snooping. In fact I know she knows as she has changed passwords and stopped sending text messages to OM1 and OM2 (or has gone deeper underground and using messenger services on her cell, they don't show up in call records).

So in order for her to lose my scent I told her I believe she has ended it with OM1 and that OM2 is just a friend. I want her to feel more secure so she makes more mistakes. She thinks I believe her, I don't. I also don't want her to start telling everyone about the OM as that will derail my exposure plan. About 4 of our friends know already (we have a large group), not who it is, but suspect she is having an A.

Conversation was going quite well until ....

We started talking about my work. In a nutshell I have been asked to extend my contract overseas for a further two years. In return the company will give me equity in the business, a 7 figure bonus and double my 6 figure tax free salary (sorry I know it sounds like a brag but I need to paint the picture here). I have already informed my WW that I do not want this once in a lifetime opportunity and will be coming home as planned, to be with my family and try save my marriage. She thinks I dont love her and that I only want to save the marriage for the children. She said don't do it on account of her as there is no marriage to come back to.

I then spoke about the fact that I feel immense guilt - am I making the correct decision. I personally want to go back, I am tired of this job and China is killing me. I want to be with my wife and my children. However I feel I am being financially irresponsible by not extending the contract. Is the writing on the wall for us. Should I just pack it in, do the two years, take the money and my kids will be set up for life. Or do I go back to recession hit Britain, try find a job and save my marriage at the same time. I know what I want to do but my paternal instincts tell me otherwise, its financially punitive. This is a decision that no one on this board can advise, its something I need to make on my own. One thing I do know is that if I stay my marriage is doomed, if I go home there is a chance, its minute but there is a chance.

She got all "why are you telling me this, its not my decision, I cant handle the pressure or guilt either" and very frustrated.

I will be back in the UK in Feb for a period of 10 days. We agreed to take the family skiing but she has stated she does not want to go away with me anymore, but I can take the kids. I love my kids dearly but if its just me and them for 10 days I'll go crazy. They are 1 and 4 years old and it wont be much of a relaxing holiday for me. I started sounding needy and tried to convince her to come away with us. An emphatic no was the answer. I said fine and basically hung up the phone.

We had been getting on so well until now. I had been depositing units like crazy over xmas (to no avail may I add) but feel like I just lost all the hard work in one conversation.

Aaargh this is so frustrating. I need to head back as soon as possible to start exposure. I cant do this from a distance, period.

L&F:

You are making the right decision to not extend your contract. You need to be with your family now. (Plus, you are not enjoying the work anyway, but that is beside the point.)

My WH, Taffy, had to make a job transfer to get away from the Dolly (OW). It meant an approximately 50% reduction in remuneration for us. And he had to leave behind a project that was thrilling to him, and a real career-maker. However, it was absolutely the right decision for us. We can deal with a reduced income. But we absolutely had to get away, which required the fiscal decision. We are much happier now, and able to focus on fixing us.

You may miss out on a big income RIGHT NOW by not extending your contract, that is true. But once your family life gets on track (whatever that means), you can reconsider your big career opportunities, that are supportive of your marriage and family life. MB principles are that your career should support your marriage, not the other way around. And please do not think this is the last big job opportunity you will ever have. If you have one, you will have more. But it MAY be the last shot at your marriage.

If you took the 2 year assignment and your marriage was fine would your wife and kids be joining you in China?



Don't fret over the phone call. She wants....NEEDS to push your buttons and aggravate you so you in turn [hopefully] aggravate her which serves to feed her rationalizations and justifications.

Mr. W

I agree you need to be home.

yes. The plan was to do 1 year then if its going well and china is conducive for a young family then they would join me. I had no idea that my employers would offer me what they did so if the marriage was fine then yes the family would join me.

I wish I could have ended that call quicker than I did.I was in the driving seat when I was saying how much i believe her she has ended it, that she would not lie to me anymore she is not that type of person. She was silent.

Then I got needy.Its amazing how something like this can change someones actions. I am usually such a controlled self disciplined person.Doing a 180 seemed so easy for me, but when I talk to her I say stupid things.

Anyway just ranting at the moment. I have decided to head back to the UK.I will chat to my employer and tell them my story. They have no idea I have been going through this for 6 months. I will ask them if they will keep the door ajar, so if my situation does not improve in 6 months could I return. Long shot but I can ask.

This weekend I am putting pen to paper and devising my strategy. From beginning to end. I may need assistance so will post it here when done.

Its been a while since my last post - I have been digesting all the information and advise that so many amazing people have given me.

Something has just dawned on me that has made me feel rather anxious. Having read a few of your posts and your stories it appears that at some point your WS were either living with you or moved out but soon returned back to the Marital Home during the entire ordeal. This allows for love deposits and reconciliation. I suppose the idea of having your spouse around helps tremendously in sorting our problems.

I am faced with a scenario where i have been away for 9 months, 6 of those since D-Day. My question is have I done irrecoverable damage to my marriage by being away? Is it past the phase of no return. I fear I have been an enabler to an affair in my own marriage, I feel sick to the stomach with the thought (its been 3 months since i found out about A)

Whenever I head back to the UK my W and I get on very well. We talk, we laugh we go out for dinner, holidays etc. Then we talk about D, I am fighting it she is getting annoyed I am fighting it. I leave on a bad note, until the next time when the time apart makes us forget about the last tough conversation and we start over again - its like ground hog day.

We seem to be moving further apart each time we see each other. When I first got the news and headed back we were still in the same bed (no sex though), got dressed or showered in front of each other, even talked about "feelings" and intimacy. Then I found out about the A, confronted her and she has gone as cold as ice. Still very civil but its put on.We no longer sleep in the same room and never get dressed in front of each other. Before she was willing to do things as a family together or just me and her, now its a definite no - she doesn't want to send the wrong message to me or the kids by playing happy family.

Have I put the final nail in the coffin by staying away and doing what I thought was best and support my family from a distance and give her the space I thought she needed to come to her senses, is it too late?

I have such hope but feel any efforts and choices were wrong.

Hi L&F

Yes, you have enabled the A, by not being here, by not exposing. It is a tough pill to swallow, but you are not alone in the enabler ship of fools.

Yes, the A will be further entrenched by your living away for the past 6 months since D-Day, and continue until you can get home and follow the MB plan.

But don't beat yourself up about these things. You may be like many who, until they found MB, did what they thought was the right thing, only to learn it was exactly the wrong thing.

The good news is that there is still hope of recovery. WS's have been known to leave the AP even up to, or after, the divorce goes through. However, the A will continue and nothing will move towards recovery until you can take the first step of exposure. As I am too new myself, I won't comment on whether you should expose before you move back home. But you are not doing your marriage any favours by continuing to be away.

I realize moving back to the UK would mean huge financial setbacks, especially since you are nearing the end of your contract. But at this point, you are choosing to put your marriage on the back burner, IMO.