</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">http://www.apa.org/books/4318830s.html</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The smoker example in this one is good to relate to how your W thinks about things, I think.

Oh man...there are so many good ones, here, take the whole site!!!!!

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=cognitive+dissonance&spell=1

OK guys,

Myschae -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> *just silently shakes her head and then mutters* …figures…
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, maybe it would of helped if I had mentioned this a little earlier, I don't know. It also explains my spelling mistakes at times eh?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Thank you, now I have a very clear picture of what happens that bothers you but I’m still a bit fuzzy on exactly why.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, I think you hit it right on the head. Basically, I really do not have a problem with my W's POV until she starts with the make believe. But I really do not have a problem with the make believe unless it is being used to make me look bad, stupid or whatever. It is when she uses her "make believe" attacking me. As you put it, when it is negative towards me or someone else, like our S.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I’ll tell you why I’m asking. I do stuff like this all the time.. and I listen to it all the time and it really doesn’t bother me. Certainly, I’ve never felt degraded by this sort of situation. I really have no basis for understanding what specifically about it bothers you. If she ‘made up’ things that showed you in a more positive light would that be acceptable? Is it just the negativity? Or, is it the inclusion of anything that isn’t “real” that bothers you?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, it is pretty much the negativity.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I smiled as I read this. Have you ever read the comic “Calvin and Hobbes”? (if you haven’t go find a few examples of it) It’s about a boy and his stuffed tiger (which he believes is real) and the situations in which he finds himself. My world is very much like that. Things happen that have richer meanings and implications sometimes than what is probably factual. Still, I consider myself pretty grounded. (We won’t give my H a vote, mmkay?)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hear ya, reality is a bit**! We all live in some form of actual reality and I can except that. This is part of what makes each person special. The problem I have is when someone takes this difference and creates part of it to hurt or exploit something. Calvin & Hobbes - yes, they are cool! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think I have a very clear understanding of the communication style you’re referring to. I think it’s very close to my natural way of speaking, actually. I don’t consider myself a liar or particularly given to fabrication. I just .. experience things differently. And, often, when I talk I tend to emphasize things by assigning ridiculous amounts of scale to things. I also tend to assign not only ridiculously scaled values, I often make them exceedingly precise (instead of saying “We spent 10,000 dollars more than we should have!” I’ll say “We spent $10,420.28 more than we should have!” when we really spent like $20 or something.) I do make a concerted effort to refrain from that at certain times.. but when I’m upset is generally when that side of me really comes out. Still, I am fairly successful with communicating with people and building cooperation. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, and this is a fine way to communicate, but it can get to be a little LBish when it comes to the closest person in your life, your spouse. When the one who knows what buttons get you going, exagerates on something that makes you look bad (even if it is to make you look bad only to yourself), sometimes becomes unbearable. I too have exagerated things to get a point across. I am not totally against this. There is also a difference between exageration and plain making something up that was not even close to happening. For instance, my W did not try to get off the phone once yesterday, yet she claimed she tried 10 times. This is not exagerating something, it is making it up.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I suppose I irritate a few folks along the way. I am not trying to upset people (honest) and I do get some rather odd looks on occasion. I don’t really expect people to take me literally. It’s just my way of relating scale and emotion into conversation without always using feeling words.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Scale is one thing and I can understand this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Just from my point of view, I’m not sure it’s something about myself I’d be comfortable changing. It’s very much a method of communication and expression. I’d feel somehow .. stifled.. if I couldn’t express myself comfortably. I assume your wife didn’t develop this habit yesterday.. has she always been like this? Is it possible you didn’t notice so much before because there was a more positive association for you?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I could understand this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What if this is just part of your wife’s core personality? How bad is it for you? Could you learn to take what she says less literally? Give me an idea of the difficulty level for you.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Put it this way, what you described I could live with. I have a real problem, on the other hand, living with someone totally making something up (not scaling it) for the purpose of making me look bad or worse than I really am. This is an attack on me when it happens. Do you see the difference?


CTJ -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You may be hitting a similar kind of communication barrier.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sort of, but different. I take it, your W "acting phsycotic" is not directed at or about you. This is where we differ.

Baba2 -

Thanks for the information on cognitive differences. I think you make a lot of sense here. Though I think maybe my W's negativeness is probably atype of self-defense that she feels required to use when dealing with me because of how she might feel I have hurt her in the past. For example, the whole thing I took from yesterday was that she was recklessly considering spending a large amount of money and she hurt me by hanging up the phone in mid conversation. What my W took from the conversation was that I do not emotionally support her. She has said to me recently that she does not emotionally trust me to not hurt her emotionally. I am trying to relate and know this is big with her. I sometimes, well ok, most times have trouble, for whatever reason, understanding how to give her emotional support or feed her emotionally. I will read through all your examples. Do you know of any cases where someone altered their cognitive differences due to their life situations and then changed back after the situation causing the change was addressed?

Thanks for a really positive post baba. I am glad you are back around. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Thanks guys,

EL

I wonder why your wife's reality is based on a negative view of you? I knew a married couple like that where the woman ran down the husband all the time in her mind, and with other people.

She never expected him to do anything good
She always expected him to mess up
She looked at him as if he were a child.
She "tolerated" him.
She "put up with his hunting and fishing" but disliked it.
She "rolled her eyes" at things he said or did
She showed her dislike and disrespect in other ways.


I wonder what it would take to change SET attitudes such as this???? If this attitude toward the spouse is becoming set in stone, then something drastic needs to happen to break this attitude out.

She seems to slant everything toward insulting you or putting you below her or targeting you. Was she always this way with you? Does she negatively target others too?

It seems very unsupportive toward you, her doing this. There is some reason for it, however.

When she says a negative thing about you exaggerating the untruth, you wanna just say:


"Hey, that is NOT true about me, I am a good smart person, not the irresponsible dummy you make me out to be!!!!"

OR:

"QUIT PUTTING ME DOWN! I am your husband! Not your enemy! I need your support, not your putdowns!"

What would happen if you tried to break her bad habits by coming out with the above statements??? How would she react?

Hey Baba2,

You have presented an interesting concept here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "Hey, that is NOT true about me, I am a good smart person, not the irresponsible dummy you make me out to be!!!!"

OR:

"QUIT PUTTING ME DOWN! I am your husband! Not your enemy! I need your support, not your putdowns!"

What would happen if you tried to break her bad habits by coming out with the above statements??? How would she react? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not in these exact words, but I have said similar things to her. When I have, she seems to get quiet. Sometimes she tries to argue that she was not treating me this way. I have often said to her that she makes me feel like she is treating me like a child sometimes. I have said to her that I am not her enemy and that I am on her side in life.

Interesting.....

Here is another question for the group:

You know I took my ring off last week for an entire week. I have noticed that my W has taken hers off for almost an entire week. I have been wearing my ring again since last Saturday. My W, I am sure has noticed, but has not said a word about it. Do you think I can ask her about her wearing her ring, or do I just need to deal with it and not say anything? It kind of has me wondering a bit. Iguess my W taking her ring off was more effective than me taking mine off. I did not mean for this to turn into some type of relationship game, but I guess it has. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Please don't fall into a pattern of playing "games" in your marriage. If you see a nasty little game, banish it.

Try and stay true to reality and real issues. Don't manipulate each other by games. I wear my ring half the time and half the time I forget. Same with my husband. Rings don't even mean anything or touch the huge love we feel for each other.

Please ignore the ring thing and start working on the bad communication and negative attitudes. To break up this ring game you could either confront it and bring it out in the open. Or just ignore it.

Lost my post. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

I was saying my W did this. I tried telling her that it hurt, but she said she didn't feel like wearing it. I tried asking her to wear it, but that was "controlling." I even said it might have prevented her EA (wishful thinking).

My MC said to let it go, b/c it is just a symbol. She said when W feels happy with the M, she'll wear it again. Treat the disease, not the symptom.

Cool. Thanks for the advice. I needed to see that.

Thanks,

EL

*popping in*

Hi EL. I haven't been posting much as I just am not sure what to say. I just posted a wee update on my stuff. I thought I'd alert you as I comment some on how I feel in my relationship when phrases like "the right way of doing things" get used. Just maybe a perspective on how that can feel to someone who is continually "in the wrong". FYI.

I don't want much of a dialogue on it, as I get tired of defending my POV as valid and don't wish to do so here, but if you have clarifying questions feel free...

lfc

<small>[ September 15, 2004, 12:48 AM: Message edited by: lookingforchange ]</small>

EL--

A thought occurred to me while posting elsewhere. It's related to how we see the world and communicate...

See, there are three basic types of cognitions that I'm aware of:

Facts
Beliefs
Impressions

Facts are of course the things that are 100% observable. They are overall indisputable.

You seem to perceive the world this way and communicate this way.

Beliefs are our thoughts on what is behind the facts. They are the glue that hold facts together in a mind, in many ways. They consist of principle and rules.

I tend to perceive the world this way and communicate in those terms.

Impressions consist of feelings an opinions. They are internal reactions to facts and beliefs. Impressions are often highly distorted from facts because they are context based.

Your W seems to perceive the world this way and communicate in terms of impressions. My W often communicates this way.

So, for instance, when my W starts communicating about someone she think doesn't like her, and I start listening in terms of beliefs, I try to relate to her in logical arguments. This kind of communications disconnect causes arguments.

Now, with you listening for facts and your W communicating in terms of impressions... There's a huge disconnect there as well. Particularly, since the impressions can be disconnected.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yeah, maybe it would of helped if I had mentioned this a little earlier, I don't know. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Heh. Nah.. it did give me a chuckle though.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> OK, I think you hit it right on the head. Basically, I really do not have a problem with my W's POV until she starts with the make believe. But I really do not have a problem with the make believe unless it is being used to make me look bad, stupid or whatever. It is when she uses her "make believe" attacking me. As you put it, when it is negative towards me or someone else, like our S. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Aha! Now we’re getting somewhere.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yes, and this is a fine way to communicate, but it can get to be a little LBish when it comes to the closest person in your life, your spouse. When the one who knows what buttons get you going, exagerates on something that makes you look bad (even if it is to make you look bad only to yourself), sometimes becomes unbearable. I too have exagerated things to get a point across. I am not totally against this. There is also a difference between exageration and plain making something up that was not even close to happening. For instance, my W did not try to get off the phone once yesterday, yet she claimed she tried 10 times. This is not exagerating something, it is making it up. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand why it bothers you. I wonder if it’s not just a part of your w’s personality, though. The thing is that my impressions are very, very colored by my general mood at the time. The more negative I feel about something, the more negative my impressions are. The more positive I feel about something… the more positive my impressions are. The good news is that as things change, it’s likely that the pendulum will shift again. The bad news is no one has any idea how long that might take AND you have to deal with it in the meantime.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Put it this way, what you described I could live with. I have a real problem, on the other hand, living with someone totally making something up (not scaling it) for the purpose of making me look bad or worse than I really am. This is an attack on me when it happens. Do you see the difference? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, I sure do. I’m just not sure what to tell you to do about it. I don’t think that challenging her or arguing with her will work. I think you’ve gathered some pretty strong evidence to that effect so far. I read the challenging statements that Baba suggested and I can tell you how they would make me react. I’d probably withdraw and refuse to attempt to communicate with you on the subject any further for a very, very long time. I’ve been thinking about what WOULD work to get me to change that dynamic (when I’m upset) and I haven’t come up with anything yet. If I do, I’ll let you know.

Mys

MYS I respect your opinions. But let me say this.

In a previous long term relationship, I was the "difficult" person (I know, hard to believe isn't it! Lol!)

The only thing I remember that helped me break out of my rut was him saying, "I am NOT the enemy." in a kind but firm way.

He repeated this often when I started going off on my tangents....."I am NOT the enemy". "I am not your enemy, I am your lover".

He sometimes held my hands gently while saying this and said it in a soft voice getting louder if I did not hear the words.

It really broke thru my "stuff" at the time. And I was a better person because of this statement being said to me over and over...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> MYS I respect your opinions. But let me say this.

In a previous long term relationship, I was the "difficult" person (I know, hard to believe isn't it! Lol!)

The only thing I remember that helped me break out of my rut was him saying, "I am NOT the enemy." in a kind but firm way.

He repeated this often when I started going off on my tangents....."I am NOT the enemy". "I am not your enemy, I am your lover".

He sometimes held my hands gently while saying this and said it in a soft voice getting louder if I did not hear the words.

It really broke thru my "stuff" at the time. And I was a better person because of this statement being said to me over and over... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can see how this might be helpful in some situations. It might help with EL’s wife. I don’t know. I can only say that, for me, I’d be sitting there wondering “What the heck are you babbling about? Aw.. shucks.. forget it.”

What I’m usually looking for is to feel “heard.” The less heard I feel, the more escalated things seem to become. Maybe the reason EL’s wife speaks so emphatically is because she doesn’t feel as though she’s getting through.

Mys

Hey gang,

Yesterday and today I was super busy. I could not get a moment to post. However, here is an update. I'll try mineownself's recomendation on expressing this.

Yesterday, I was quite busy at work, I had too many things going on. My W calls me during the morning and says, "I am feeling sick. I am too sick to do anything." Now this statement in itself is not a problem, I can understand and relate to someone being sick. The problem here is that it was my W's turn to host a neighborhood girls bunco night. The night before she had one of her meetings for the board. Our 4 year old S is home with my W on Monday, Wednesday and Friday. On Wednesdays she takes him to a music class that lasts an hour. She told me she was feeling so bad that she did not think she could take him. I said to her I thought she should skip it if she was feeling that bad. Our S was dissapointed so I told him that when I got home he and I would do something special to make up for missing his class. I talk to my W on my way home and she needs me to pickup a couple of things for her girls night. I pick these things up, get home, and find her cooking away for the evening. She again mentions to me how sick she is and that she just wished she did not have to go through this tonight. I jumped in and got a lot of things done that she needed. We were finished with everything when the girls started to arrive. I took our S and we went to Chucky Cheese (yeah, interesting). Anyway, we got back about 3 hours later and the girls were all leaving (perfect timing). As I walk into the house, my W says, "some of the girls are coming back to sit in the hot tub." This is where I got a little irritated. I said, "I thought you were so sick you just wanted the evening to end? Why did you not take the opportunity to just call it a night and go to bed after bunco? This does not make sense to me." She said, "So you are mad at me! I was going to sit in the hot tub anyway, so whats the big deal?" I think - well I don't know, maybe I would like to sit in the hot tub. I say, "It just does not make any sense to me because of how bad you have been feeling for you to extend the night." My W said, "It is no big deal." I put our S to bed as my W rushed to change for the hot tub and the door bell rang. I was irritated that my W kind of blew off putting our S to bed. She came in and gave him a quick kiss.

After I put our S to bed, I went downstairs and saw the full extent of the mess a 12 women bunco night could unleash. WOW! I started cleaning, and my W said, "Don't clean, I'll get it in the morning!" I said, "Honey, its ok. I understand that you would get it in the morning. I also know how sick you have been feeling and how much worse it will make you feel to wake up to this mess in the morning. I do not mind helping. It makes me happy to be able to do something nice for you." I know you guys had recomended my complying with my W when she says this, but this time I did know better.

My W and the girls go out in the hot tub. I begin cleaning. I go out once in a while and ask the girls if they need anything. I bring them drinks etc.. I continue to clean (it took me 3 hours). After I was done, my W was just getting out of the hot tub and she said, "I told you you did not have to clean." I said, "I am sorry, but I wanted to do something nice for you. Besides, it is the least I could do for being an a** earlier. I did not mean to make you upset when I got home." She said, "Oh, thanks, but it was my mess." I said, "We are partners and therfore, it is our mess. I thought it would be nice to clean and give you the option tomorrow of relaxing if you are feeling sick." She said, "Thanks." I said, "Your welcome." Thats it.

Now my problem with this example is that my W is too sick to take our S to his class, too sick to get everything done for HER girls gathering, yet all of a sudden not too sick to stay up and drink with the girls. This bothered me. Especially when the night before, I was accomodating to her meeting and had our S at work with me. Then last night, picked up things for her for HER night, got home and went 1000mph getting her stuff taken care of for HER night and then leaving with our S. I did not even get to take a breath. When my S and I got back, I was plain tired and would liked to have rested on my own. I felt like there was no consideration for me in my W's thought process or actions.

When we finally were in bed, she cried herself to sleep because she was feeling so sick and had stomach cramps. I kept asking her if there was anything I could do and she would say no. I eventually got her something to eat at 12:00 AM at her request. This morning she was feeling pretty sick. I would think she is probably glad that there is no mess to contend with.

By the way, she still has not put her ring back on.

So go ahead, hit me over the head and tell me where I am sooooo wrong and horrible. Am I just scrutinizing things to hard or what?

EL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So go ahead, hit me over the head and tell me where I am sooooo wrong and horrible. Am I just scrutinizing things to hard or what?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Probably. You're definitely not horrible. I'd be annoyed at this sitch too. But she probably meant what she said: She was going to sit in the hot tub, anyway, and thought it would be fun to have her friends. They quite possibly invited themselves to "keep her company." It's also possible that she didn't want to turn them down due to social dynamics with the group, etc... All sorts of possibilites.

Not that I necessarily would have done things that way, and I would probably be annoyed. But it strikes me as something to not dwell on.

Man, that sounds bad. I think you are too "giving". You helped "too much" and did not care enough for yourself. Not only does your wife not care enough about you, YOU do not care enough about yourself. You GAVE too much and now you feel resentful. The more you GIVE beyond your limits, the less she will appreciate you. Determining your limits is another issue.

Now you resent helping her that much and falling for her (expert) manipulations. And you resent her non appreciation of all you did.

If she was sick, she should have cancelled Bunko until another time. The whole thing stinks to me. Having you get the child out of the house so they all could party, the hot tub, etc.

(I hope she does not play these manipulative fake sick games on you very often....)

Next time, just explain to her that "she is sick", so she should cancel Bunko.

How come you always come last in her life? She is sick and entertains 12 friends yet she cannot even appreciate you half the time?

I will never understand it. I would never expect my husband to act as you did. Even volunteering to clean up and bring them drinks was kind of wimpy of you, though it was a nice thing to do.

But remember, whenever you wimp out and do "something because of her manipulations" or "do something you do not really want to do", you will have lingering resentment afterwards.

This resentment you "brought on yourself" is now lingering. Because you "bent over backwards" for her and you did not really see why you should....since she said she was sick but really was not sick.

If a person is "sick", they should cancel a party. That is the only thing to do. You should never have helped her "have the party" if she was sick.

I use the term "Wimp Out" to describe the act of denying reality, denying your own feelings, denying your own boundaries, and doing all this to try to please another person.

No wonder you feel a bit resentful!

<small>[ September 16, 2004, 04:26 PM: Message edited by: baba2 ]</small>