The fibromyalgia point is a good one.

Actually there are a few other things that can easily be missed that would explain her symptoms too. Hypothyroidism, for example. If her TSH is over 3.0, it's worth investigating further, though many doctors will insist it has to be much higher before it's a problem.

A friend of mine had some pretty similar symptoms. Her chronic congestion was really bad and the various aches were getting worse. She went to an alternative "energy medicine" doctor when she wasn't getting anywhere with conventional medicine. The diagnostic techniques were pretty strange to someone not used to them, but the doctor said she appeared to have a wheat intolerance. He explained how exactly this would affect the various systems and produce her symptoms. She checked up on his explanations in conventional medicine guides later, and it all followed. So she gave up wheat. Night and day difference. The unexplainable aches went away and she quit eating decongestants.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, I had the MC session today. It was interesting. I got the points across to the MC. Thanks for all the help Myschae! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You’re welcome, it’s my pleasure.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She asked if I had my choice between a wonderful emotional relationship or a wonderful physical relationship with my W over the next 50 years, what would I pick. I struggled with this question and felt that both needed to be there for a relationship to be good for me. She pushed me further and said to choose one because it is a hypathetical question. I explained that I felt if I said a physical relationship I would be thinking more "short" term and if I said an emotional relationship I would be thinking more "long" term. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">*blinks* Ok.. I find that to be a very odd question.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 1) Understanding her homework assignment: She said, her whole purpose was to remove any control out of things and have each of us let the other know when we are being hurt by one another. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, what are your thoughts on this? Do you feel more comfortable with it now?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 2) With regards to signing "Love" and boundary issues: She felt that boundary issues needed to be clear and stated up front. She did not say anything when I said I was unhappy leaving her office feeling like a boundary of mine was disregarded. I left and did not have an understanding. She said, this was her removing control out of things for my W. She said, if your W signs "love" 100 times per month and you let her know that it hurts you when she does this, but you do not demand she stops, your W can do one of two things. She can ignore your hurt and keep signing like she has, which tells you something, or she could slow down the frequency of the action that hurts you, which should make you feel good. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How do you feel about this?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 3) Helping to mediate a way to get my needs stated to my W in an unthreatening way. Here we had a couple examples I gave her as to where I felt we are at right now. She said, your W may be moving closer to you and then you bring up the subject of a physical R and she pulls back or away. You have to let her come to you. On your W's side she should be keeping you updated and she currently does not give you any information. You need to ask her to do this. I told her I have and get refused or no answer or into an undesired argument. The MC said to ask her in MC and then the MC will help.

4) Asking MC to encourage W to encourage me: The MC said, again this is something I should ask her for. The MC said I could bring it up in MC when my W is there. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good and good.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 5) Relationship with my mom: The MC said that I should be careful here. She said that when her and I discussed all of these things in the beginning, she was under the impression that my M was more important than my issues with my mom and if I can seperate the two, we should work on the M first. I agree with the MC. However, since my W is averse to even discussing relationship things, and she brought my working on my issues with my mom as something she felt would help us, I felt we could not ignore the signifigance. The MC said, you need to make sure you are not taking ownership of your W's issue. Because your W brought it up, by your holding onto it and trying to "own" it, exhibits a form of control. She said you need to get more information from your W as to what she is meaning and how she feels about specifics she is talking about.

6) My own trust issues: We both agreed that this is something I need to continually work on and will have a positive impact on my M. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And, also good and good.

It looks like a very positive meeting. *smiles* I’m glad you were able to turn the situation around to your benefit and get both some good information AND an ally in helping you communicating some delicate subjects with your wife. Don’t “forget” (yeah, right) to bring that up.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I must say, that in the last 24 hours, I have felt more emotionally close to my W than I have in a long time. Its in the little things she has done in this time (like smiling at me or seeming interested when she talks to me). I do believe that some of this is a result from how we have interacted over the last two weeks. I do need to thank you guys for the positive suggestions you gave me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I’m so glad. I think that CTJ was right. You’ve found a good pace now you’re in the endurance test. There will be further issues, of course, but now you know what is working and you can concentrate on doing more of the same. I’m not suggesting you stop posting here or anything rash like that <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . I’m just saying that I hope that things will smooth out as you put into practice the strategies you’ve laid into place. I think lining up your MC as an ally is a GREAT positive step forward. Having those issues on her radar will hopefully help you get your needs on the table. I expect that your MC will want to move slower than you would like as I don’t think she wants to push your W too hard, but some progress in that direction (even slow progress) will be beneficial.

Regarding all your W’s health issues… yeesh, it sounds like she’s been through a ringer! Mineownself seems to have some great suggestions for things to try. I do hope she’s open to trying some new ideas to resolve the issues but I want to caution you against making this a ‘barrier’ to working on your marriage. You can offer help and support but, remember, she might be too tired of all the Dr. visits and tests to entertain the idea of signing up for more. Right now, you’re in a delicate place of building some foundational agreements. Be very careful that your helpful suggestions don’t stray into areas of demands or nagging.

Mys

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">*blinks* Ok.. I find that to be a very odd question.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's a leading self-discovery question. She wanted to force him to evaluate and acknowledge what are his short term and long term goals, and what he is *really* working for. She wanted to force him to assess in his mind how important the physical relationship really was compared to the emotional relationship.

Keep in mind that right now (as with myself in the past 3 years) without that physical relationship, it is so *easy* to make that the sum total of his focus, and ignore the rest of the relationship. His sexual relationship is his "broken mast" which is screaming for his attention. That question helps remind him of where everything is at, and what his overall desire is. ;-D That's why I'm carrying that broken mast analogy with me. Because it's easy to focus on "fixing a problem," when the whole relationship needs work. :-D

Atleast, if I was the MC, that's why I would have asked it. ;-D

Hey guys,

Thanks for the posts.

Mineownself -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Actually there are a few other things that can easily be missed that would explain her symptoms too. Hypothyroidism, for example. If her TSH is over 3.0, it's worth investigating further, though many doctors will insist it has to be much higher before it's a problem.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I tried to bring this subject up to my W. She was a little defensive, probably from having been to multiple doctors. I tried to back out of the convo because I did not want her to feel like she needed to be defensive. She says she is opposed to going to a physical therapist, but not a neurologist. I said ok. Its a start. She disagreed with the concept that chiropractics is a short term solution. I should have known better and not went there.


Myschae -

Hey, how is the housing situation?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> *blinks* Ok.. I find that to be a very odd question.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I felt it was a little odd and frustrating as far as questions go. I see she was trying to get me to evaluate which (emotional or physical) is more important than the other. The question startled me and made me pause and think. Because of this, I think it is a good question. I do feel both are equally important. Obviously, if the question was "which one would you prefer to fix first?" my answer would be simple. However, since I had to choose to "give up" one, it became something I could not answer. As far as the bigger picture, maybe the Mc was trying to get me to think something like this: For me the physical would be my first pick. I feel like I cannot live without it right now and it is making me completely miserable. The emotional connection is nice and is what will in the end make me feel like our relationship is totally complete. However, my W may be opposite and feel that she cannot live without the emotional connection and that the physical would be her "icing on the cake" that would complete our relationship for her. Therefore, if I view the emotional side with the same weighting of importance as I currently view the physical side, I will be viewing the emotional side similarly to the way my W feels. This will help me to understand my W better. Wow, am I reading too much into the question? I don't think I am.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So, what are your thoughts on this? Do you feel more comfortable with it now? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, and no. Let me explain... Basically, I truely feel that control is an illusion and that nobody actually is in control of anything. I understand what the MC is saying and I can accept what she is trying to do. The problem I have with it is more of a philisophical one that will probably get dubbed as "over thinking a simple issue." Essentially, using an MB statement, "anything that anyone does effects their marriage." This statement in itself implies that we are all in total "control" of our Ms because anything we do can and will effect our Ms. Therefore, the MC could not possibly remove "control" (in its fundamental definition) from our M. Therefore, in my mind, since there is no way to actually remove control, I view the homework assignment as kind of pointless. However, because of this and trying to give it a chance, I look at the other things this homework assignment may achieve. Based upon reccomendations from posters here, I do agree that the brunt of the homewrk assignment is to help us see and understand how we hurt each other. Potentially we are not seeing that we are hurting each other and awareness of our actions should help us to create better behaviors for the future that encourage a better M.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> How do you feel about this?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am not happy with the idea of my W telling some guy that she "loves" him, whether it is direct or implied. So I guess I will agree to disagree with everyone else's opinions on this. I mentioned to the MC, for me this is not about control, it is about hurt. Since it hurts me, my partner should not do it, if my partner does not want to hurt me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It looks like a very positive meeting. *smiles* I’m glad you were able to turn the situation around to your benefit and get both some good information AND an ally in helping you communicating some delicate subjects with your wife. Don’t “forget” (yeah, right) to bring that up.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, the session went ok. I am still left with the feeling of just how much of an ally is the MC going to be. She really was pushing for me to discuss these things with my W on my own (away from MC). As I explained here and to her, she is kind of averse to these types of discussions right now. I asked the MC what homework assignment she was giving me. She said, "no homework assignment, just talk about these things with your W."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I’m so glad. I think that CTJ was right. You’ve found a good pace now you’re in the endurance test. There will be further issues, of course, but now you know what is working and you can concentrate on doing more of the same. I’m not suggesting you stop posting here or anything rash like that . I’m just saying that I hope that things will smooth out as you put into practice the strategies you’ve laid into place. I think lining up your MC as an ally is a GREAT positive step forward. Having those issues on her radar will hopefully help you get your needs on the table. I expect that your MC will want to move slower than you would like as I don’t think she wants to push your W too hard, but some progress in that direction (even slow progress) will be beneficial.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">YEs, we do seem to be currently on a micro peak. The trick is to not fall down the other side and allow things to level off a bit and gain some staying power at this level. Then in a little bit, take it to another level.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Regarding all your W’s health issues… yeesh, it sounds like she’s been through a ringer! Mineownself seems to have some great suggestions for things to try. I do hope she’s open to trying some new ideas to resolve the issues but I want to caution you against making this a ‘barrier’ to working on your marriage. You can offer help and support but, remember, she might be too tired of all the Dr. visits and tests to entertain the idea of signing up for more. Right now, you’re in a delicate place of building some foundational agreements. Be very careful that your helpful suggestions don’t stray into areas of demands or nagging.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right. I almost fell into this last night. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I am aware of not making this a barrier between us and what we are trying to achieve.

The big mid-term exam is going to come on Friday night at her friend's wedding where a lot of these "guys" are going to be. We'll see how this pans out.

CTJ -

You are right in your assessment of the MC's question.

Thanks to all,

EL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Hey, how is the housing situation? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well.. lately it’s been very, very frustrating. Just when I think I’m done, 3 more issues pop up and have to be dealt with. Most of them are things that SHOULD take 15 minutes to resolve but I’ve found myself in a constant game of phone tag between people so a 15 minute “yes or no” question turns into a 3-day ordeal (and it’s still not resolved). Closing is in a week… in THEORY we should be ready.. but at this pace I’m beginning to worry.

Blah. I’m just not in a very good place right now. I haven’t been getting enough sleep; I’m stressed out and frustrated. If you don’t see me around much for a while it’s probably because I’m huddled in a corner having a nervous breakdown or three.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Wow, am I reading too much into the question? I don't think I am. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, it makes sense to me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Based upon reccomendations from posters here, I do agree that the brunt of the homewrk assignment is to help us see and understand how we hurt each other. Potentially we are not seeing that we are hurting each other and awareness of our actions should help us to create better behaviors for the future that encourage a better M. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, from the way your MC described her intent, perhaps we can go back and substitute Selfish Demands for the word ‘control’.

She said, this was her removing Selfish Demands out of things for my W. She said, if your W signs "love" 100 times per month and you let her know that it hurts you when she does this, but you do not demand she stops, your W can do one of two things. She can ignore your hurt and keep signing like she has, which tells you something, or she could slow down the frequency of the action that hurts you, which should make you feel good.

Perhaps her intent is more focused on eliminating the LB of Selfish Demands? If you let your W know what hurts you but then allow her to make her own choices instead of Selfishly Demanding that she stop, it will improve your marriage.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am not happy with the idea of my W telling some guy that she "loves" him, whether it is direct or implied. So I guess I will agree to disagree with everyone else's opinions on this. I mentioned to the MC, for me this is not about control, it is about hurt. Since it hurts me, my partner should not do it, if my partner does not want to hurt me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sharing that it hurts you and is a LB is important. It’s also important to avoid selfishly demanding that she stop (Telling her she “shouldn’t” can be perceived as a demand). You’ll never like it. To your knowledge has she continued?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yeah, the session went ok. I am still left with the feeling of just how much of an ally is the MC going to be. She really was pushing for me to discuss these things with my W on my own (away from MC). As I explained here and to her, she is kind of averse to these types of discussions right now. I asked the MC what homework assignment she was giving me. She said, "no homework assignment, just talk about these things with your W." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Did she offer you any suggestions or strategies when you told her what happened?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> YEs, we do seem to be currently on a micro peak. The trick is to not fall down the other side and allow things to level off a bit and gain some staying power at this level. Then in a little bit, take it to another level. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yep!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You are right. I almost fell into this last night. I am aware of not making this a barrier between us and what we are trying to achieve. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good. I’m glad you saw it and caught yourself. That is really GREAT progress!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The big mid-term exam is going to come on Friday night at her friend's wedding where a lot of these "guys" are going to be. We'll see how this pans out. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You’ll do fine.

Mys

Heya,

It sounds like it didn't go *too* bad talking about the health issues -- your eagerness to back down when she seemed uncomfortable on this is a good thing. This is a tricky and painful issue for her to deal with and she can't currently see any way out -- just imagine how painful that must feel. So your eagerness not to distress her on this subject is very nice. Good for you.

You did bring it up, and you did find out she'd be willing to see a neurologist. It's a step forward. Who knows, the neurologist might send her to physical therapy. Maybe not. There's a difficult mental component to healing this kind of long-term problem, and she's going to have to take her own unique path to get there.

I can see why she wouldn't agree right now that chiropractic care might not be permanently necessary -- in her experience, it IS permanently necessary. It sounds like she's having some of the same issues that I did with not truly listening to her body while it heals (like working on the patio when she's sore), so any time she does listen to her body right now is a good thing. If her physical intuition says CHIROPRACTOR FOREVER, hey, go with it, at least she's paying attention to what is helping her. Sowing the idea that it's possible she might not need it forever and then letting it drop like you did is good, I think. It lets the possibility be stated, but makes room for her current reality where it's just not bloody likely from her perspective. Some day if she gets the right combination of help she may decide she doesn't want to bother with the chiropractor anymore. But probably not for at least a couple of years.

Hello,

Myschae -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well.. lately it’s been very, very frustrating. Just when I think I’m done, 3 more issues pop up and have to be dealt with. Most of them are things that SHOULD take 15 minutes to resolve but I’ve found myself in a constant game of phone tag between people so a 15 minute “yes or no” question turns into a 3-day ordeal (and it’s still not resolved). Closing is in a week… in THEORY we should be ready.. but at this pace I’m beginning to worry.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sounds like you are making very good progress. Was it not a week or two ago you were saying that you would find you had 15 things to do, get them done and then find out there was another 15 things? Now that you are down to 3 issues at a time poping up, it sounds like progress to me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Blah. I’m just not in a very good place right now. I haven’t been getting enough sleep; I’m stressed out and frustrated. If you don’t see me around much for a while it’s probably because I’m huddled in a corner having a nervous breakdown or three.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Take it easy. Breath. IN, then OUT. You are going to be ok. You are entitled to feel how you do. 1) I hear you, and understand. 2) I feel your frustrations are valid. It is a frustrating thing to move. 3) How about you just post when you feel like you have the time and need a break from "huddling" in the corner? mkay. 4) Now would you like some chocolates? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> You, my friend, have created a monster! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, from the way your MC described her intent, perhaps we can go back and substitute Selfish Demands for the word ‘control’.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sounds like a good point. It makes sense.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Sharing that it hurts you and is a LB is important. It’s also important to avoid selfishly demanding that she stop (Telling her she “shouldn’t” can be perceived as a demand). You’ll never like it. To your knowledge has she continued?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand and accept what you are telling me. To my knowledge, no. I am not around during the day when she is on her email though.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Did she offer you any suggestions or strategies when you told her what happened? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not really. She just said I needed to talk it over with my W. This obviously is not really great advice, based upon my W's current aversions. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Good. I’m glad you saw it and caught yourself. That is really GREAT progress!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You’ll do fine.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks again. The MC recomended that I speak with my W tomorrow on the drive to the wedding. The wedding is 5 hours away. She said to get my W to agree on a suitable signal for me when I am feeling not included. I told the MC that for whatever reason, my W feels a signal or things like it are stupid. I really would feel comfortable if we had a signal. She also asked what caused issues at other weddings. I mentioned in the past how my W would find all the time in the World to dance with everyone else and not be able to fit me in. This really hurts me, so the MC suggested I ask my W on the drive if she would be willing to promise to save me a dance. I am still trying to figure out the best way to ask these things, but I am going to give it a shot.

Mineownself -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It sounds like it didn't go *too* bad talking about the health issues -- your eagerness to back down when she seemed uncomfortable on this is a good thing. This is a tricky and painful issue for her to deal with and she can't currently see any way out -- just imagine how painful that must feel. So your eagerness not to distress her on this subject is very nice. Good for you. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for the kind words. It is tricky.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You did bring it up, and you did find out she'd be willing to see a neurologist. It's a step forward. Who knows, the neurologist might send her to physical therapy. Maybe not. There's a difficult mental component to healing this kind of long-term problem, and she's going to have to take her own unique path to get there.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I must follow her chosen path towards recovery on this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I can see why she wouldn't agree right now that chiropractic care might not be permanently necessary -- in her experience, it IS permanently necessary. It sounds like she's having some of the same issues that I did with not truly listening to her body while it heals (like working on the patio when she's sore), so any time she does listen to her body right now is a good thing. If her physical intuition says CHIROPRACTOR FOREVER, hey, go with it, at least she's paying attention to what is helping her. Sowing the idea that it's possible she might not need it forever and then letting it drop like you did is good, I think. It lets the possibility be stated, but makes room for her current reality where it's just not bloody likely from her perspective. Some day if she gets the right combination of help she may decide she doesn't want to bother with the chiropractor anymore. But probably not for at least a couple of years. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is a wise point regarding the chiropractor. I think she will eventually feel like something more than the chiropractor down the road.

Thanks for the posts,

EL

EL,

I love reading your updates.

They make me smile. keep up the good work--and hang in there even when you get weary.

Thanks Telly,

Hey if they make some people smile, then it makes me feel good.

Good Luck to you,

EL

I hope it isn't too late in the day to wish you the best of luck at the wedding tonight.

I'm rooting for you!

Mys

EL,

I know this is too late to wish you luck at the wedding... but I look forward to hearing how it went, and I know others do, too!

Hey guys,

Thanks for the good wishes. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

This weekend went fine for us. I did good. The wedding turned out to not be a big deal. There ended up being about 20 people at the reception. There were only a few old friends of my W's. It was really no big deal. I just let her mingle and catchup with all of them. She included me at different times and this made me feel good. At the end of the night, I said to my W, "I have been really stupid to get jealous in the past. You are totally trust worthy and a great person. I love you so much. I am sorry for being so stupid in the past." My W said, "Thank you."

Now my W did have a rough weekend on her own for reasons that had nothing to do with me. The old girl friend she was concerned about, was nice to her face at the reception and the next day was spreading rumors about my W. Also, my W's brother and his W have become addicted on pain meds.. The family is trying to get them to get it together and stop this. Meanwhile their two kids (6 & 3) are suffering. So my W had a ton to deal with. I tried to just offer my emotional support. Driving home last night I asked my W if I did anything to hurt her or drive her away emotionally. She said no. So I just took this as a positive dropped the issue. It would be nice if she could let me know how I am doing (good or bad) because I really do feel like I am flying blind at times.

I helped my W's dad frame a house he was building for my W's sister this weekend. This was a long two days. Anyway, my W used the time to meet up with a good girl friend of hers.

I feel comfortable for the way the weekend went. I cannot say I am 100% over trust issues, but I feel this weekend went a long way towards something positive.

One of the issues that is so hard, is that when I do things better and it draws my W and I closer emotionally, sometimes I can see through little things, that she reacts more positively to me. For instance, she might sit down next to me or volunteer a kiss before bed before I have to. This small steps she is making are great, but cause me to start feeling a lot more love for her and I find myself wanting to be more physically intimate with her. This makes things a lot more difficult for me because I do not know if she is feeling anything towards being intimate or not. I do not want to ruin our forward progress and am afraid to ask for anything for fear that she will think I have done all of this last 5 months just for the physical relationship. What guidance or recomendations do you guys have for: A) trying to figure out through clues, that she might be moving towards being "kind of interested" in a physical relationship; B) When is it proper (in her mind) for me to ask for physical things without my merely asking (even asking the "right way") causing her to discredit all of our efforts to this point?

Take Care,

EL

Well the number one thing is to stop your sulking and arguing routines when she turns you down for physical contact.

Any other suggestions are useless until you get the hell over that.

When she initiates something, like a kiss goodnight, do your best to make sure it is pleasant for her, but don't try to turn it into something more for the time being.

Also remember you still have to back off. Just because you're feeling more sexually inclined doesn't mean she is.

You have a pattern of trying to play a lot of passive-aggressive head games. You're so into doing this that you play them with yourself, like the whole wedding ring thing. You ask us here a lot how you can essentially read your wife's mind, and of course, you can't. You also do a lot of ranting about how she fails to read your mind. You're probably not going to have a happy sex life until you drop all the head games and expectations of mind reading and learn to just plain talk to your wife, directly, honestly, respectfully, and without LB's.

<puts down 2x4> If you don't want to hear my answer to that kind of question, don't ask... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

EL--

Drawing a parallel to my M which is both similar and different.

I would recommend against doing anything reactive, such as trying to initiate things farther when she kisses you.

Instead, as the relationship progresses, I would recommend having sit down talks about it, just discussing where the relationship is, right now.

I would recommend discussing with the MC how you and your W can sit down and establish goals of relationship improvement that you can give regular feedback on.

Hello Mineownself,

Well, you are right. Your answer appeared a little hostile. Anyway, I will bear the blunt force of your 2x4 and muddle through.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well the number one thing is to stop your sulking and arguing routines when she turns you down for physical contact.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I try not to sulk or argue. I mean, if I ask for SF and she rejects me it plain hurts. If I catch myself feeling hurt from rejection, I try to take a deep breath and then let it go because I am very aware of not reacting negatively in front of my W about rejection. Sometimes I am accused of "sulking" and really feeal it is an unfair accusation. I understand that my W's POV may differ from my own. However, I also feel that at times I am accused because it is "how I used to be" and not necessarily how I am reacting today. It is kind of a guilty by association to my past behaviors.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Any other suggestions are useless until you get the hell over that. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with you that a person should not be angry over rejection, which I am not. I will admit to getting a bit frustrated and hurt though.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> When she initiates something, like a kiss goodnight, do your best to make sure it is pleasant for her, but don't try to turn it into something more for the time being.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand what your saying. My question was more geared towards how do I know when the "time being" is over and she will be receptive to things?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Also remember you still have to back off. Just because you're feeling more sexually inclined doesn't mean she is. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, I understand this and agree with you. I was asking these questions because I did not want to ruin things between us because of my lack of ability to understand her at this time. This lack of ability is because she is not opening up about how she is feeling with regards to our M or me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You have a pattern of trying to play a lot of passive-aggressive head games. You're so into doing this that you play them with yourself, like the whole wedding ring thing. You ask us here a lot how you can essentially read your wife's mind, and of course, you can't. You also do a lot of ranting about how she fails to read your mind. You're probably not going to have a happy sex life until you drop all the head games and expectations of mind reading and learn to just plain talk to your wife, directly, honestly, respectfully, and without LB's. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is where I think your statment is a little unfair and hurtful. I try to not play a lot of head games with my W. I ask you guys about ideas about where she is coming from on some things because she does not open up about her feelings currently. Therefore, I am left with "trying to read her mind," which I really do understand is impossible to do. This is why I gather opinions from you good people. I figure, if I try and explain things as fairly representative as possible, I will get fair feed back. Averaging out the feed back will probably get me close to where my W is coming from on some things. Amazingly, a couple people on this post have been quite representative of my W's thoughts and feelings, when my W did actually reveal how she felt about some things. This has given me a confidence in relying on some of these posts for help in gaining further understanding.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> <puts down 2x4> If you don't want to hear my answer to that kind of question, don't ask...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I love to hear any answer that is fair, and takes into account the feelings of the original poster as well as their spouse. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

CTJ -

Hello,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Drawing a parallel to my M which is both similar and different. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thats a mouth full.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I would recommend against doing anything reactive, such as trying to initiate things farther when she kisses you.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand this for the time being. I am just curious as to how long the time beign should be. At what point does someone go OK, I can start slowly getting back to reacting on my normal urges again, like we used to when we were really happy.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Instead, as the relationship progresses, I would recommend having sit down talks about it, just discussing where the relationship is, right now.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The only problem with this is that apparently it is an LB for my W if I try to talk about our relationship, especially regarding anything SF specific. Therefore, it is extremely difficult for me to "ask how she is feeling" because it is and LB. I am not supposed to act on any of my own urges/feelings because it is an LB. I am not allowed to show that I may feel bad because we can't communicate about us because it is an LB. I feel stuck at times. The good times are when I do not do any of the above and just coexist and accept how things are. This is a very frustrating way for me to live. I guess I am dying for good old fashion communication more than I am SF.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I would recommend discussing with the MC how you and your W can sit down and establish goals of relationship improvement that you can give regular feedback on.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have done this with the MC. We do not get very far on this with my W. I am not sure why yet and am trying to understand.

Thanks,

EL

EL --

I see what you're saying, and I think I need to lay the framework back a little farther.

Step #1, Work with W and MC to get to a point where there is a regular process by which you two can talk about R on at most a weekly basis. (Progress doesn't happen fast enough to make more frequently worthwhile.) <--- YOU ARE HERE

Step #2, Use this regular time to set mutual goals for the marriage. Include SF as *one* of many mutual goals.

Step #3, Use the regular time to address where you are at in meeting your mutual goals, and how to best achieve those goals.


Until you have completed step #1, you are in the land of no communication. Until there is a regular "safe" time for communication about the "R", trying any kind of communication about the "R" outside of time with the MC or MC assignemnts is counter productive, and will likely feel to your W like you are trying to push her forward. Progress here will be slow, but as long as you are both going to the MC, and you keep doing the great job you are doing, you are moving closer to having step # completed.

Until you have completed step #2, you are in the land of assumptions. Don't go there. Without open communication about a set of goals, you have no idea how either of you is really intending to change. You can only guess and get yourself in trouble.

Until you have completed step #3, you are in the land of "Did she mean what I think she meant?" Take every action at face value, and no action as an invitation. Reciprocate happily with what your W is willing to give, but until she has explicitly stated she's ready, don't go there.


My thoughts on the slow and steady progress you'll have to make and *are making*.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Extremely Lost:
<strong> Hello Mineownself,

Well, you are right. Your answer appeared a little hostile. Anyway, I will bear the blunt force of your 2x4 and muddle through.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well the number one thing is to stop your sulking and arguing routines when she turns you down for physical contact.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I try not to sulk or argue. I mean, if I ask for SF and she rejects me it plain hurts. If I catch myself feeling hurt from rejection, I try to take a deep breath and then let it go because I am very aware of not reacting negatively in front of my W about rejection. Sometimes I am accused of "sulking" and really feeal it is an unfair accusation. I understand that my W's POV may differ from my own. However, I also feel that at times I am accused because it is "how I used to be" and not necessarily how I am reacting today. It is kind of a guilty by association to my past behaviors.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Erm, it doesn't seem like it's definitely in the past based on what you report here on this board. You got pretty worked up over your wife saying a backrub from you would not help her a particular day. And you went on a marathon sulk after your anniversary. Until you've established a reliable track record of no arguing and no sulking when your wife turns down physical contact, it's unreasonable to expect her to trust you not to do those things given your history.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Any other suggestions are useless until you get the hell over that. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with you that a person should not be angry over rejection, which I am not. I will admit to getting a bit frustrated and hurt though

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, you got really angry over your anniversary. That wasn't that long ago. Some of your other posts it's hard to tell whether you're venting out of anger or frustration or both.

I have noticed you more than once insisting you weren't angry and weren't sulking when you were in fact making very angry statements and describing clearly sulking behavior on your part.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> When she initiates something, like a kiss goodnight, do your best to make sure it is pleasant for her, but don't try to turn it into something more for the time being.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand what your saying. My question was more geared towards how do I know when the "time being" is over and she will be receptive to things?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When she says so, of course. You keep offering up excuses as to why you can't talk about these things with your wife. People here keep pointing out that the path from withdrawl to intimacy goes through the state of conflict. The two of you will have to learn a mutually safe and effective way to talk about these things. Jewel's last post is really good on this topic.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Also remember you still have to back off. Just because you're feeling more sexually inclined doesn't mean she is. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, I understand this and agree with you. I was asking these questions because I did not want to ruin things between us because of my lack of ability to understand her at this time. This lack of ability is because she is not opening up about how she is feeling with regards to our M or me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You have a pattern of trying to play a lot of passive-aggressive head games. You're so into doing this that you play them with yourself, like the whole wedding ring thing. You ask us here a lot how you can essentially read your wife's mind, and of course, you can't. You also do a lot of ranting about how she fails to read your mind. You're probably not going to have a happy sex life until you drop all the head games and expectations of mind reading and learn to just plain talk to your wife, directly, honestly, respectfully, and without LB's. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is where I think your statment is a little unfair and hurtful. I try to not play a lot of head games with my W. I ask you guys about ideas about where she is coming from on some things because she does not open up about her feelings currently. Therefore, I am left with "trying to read her mind," which I really do understand is impossible to do. This is why I gather opinions from you good people. I figure, if I try and explain things as fairly representative as possible, I will get fair feed back. Averaging out the feed back will probably get me close to where my W is coming from on some things. Amazingly, a couple people on this post have been quite representative of my W's thoughts and feelings, when my W did actually reveal how she felt about some things. This has given me a confidence in relying on some of these posts for help in gaining further understanding.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hrm, there's "trying not to" do something, and there's just plain not doing it. It doesn't matter that you "try not to" play head games with your wife; what matters is that you do actually do this.

I noticed that while you did address trying to understand your wife, and yes, you are absolutely right that the perspectives you get from people here on how she might feel are very valuable, you once again skirted the issue of being radically honest with your wife yourself.

I stand by my statement that you are probably not going to have a reliably happy sex life until you learn to talk to each other safely, respectfully, and directly.

MOS--

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Jewel's last post is really good on this topic. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
I stand by my statement that you are probably not going to have a reliably happy sex life until you learn to talk to each other safely, respectfully, and directly. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">These statements in many ways seem to contradict each other when I read them. It sounds like you are advocating a more aggressive approach than the work slowly week by week with the MC approach I was suggesting.

Could you clarify/verify what you were intending to suggest?

Wait 6-8 months, then bring up sex.....

CTJ -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Step #1, Work with W and MC to get to a point where there is a regular process by which you two can talk about R on at most a weekly basis. (Progress doesn't happen fast enough to make more frequently worthwhile.) <--- YOU ARE HERE

Step #2, Use this regular time to set mutual goals for the marriage. Include SF as *one* of many mutual goals.

Step #3, Use the regular time to address where you are at in meeting your mutual goals, and how to best achieve those goals.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I see your point as well. The only thing is that I feel this should not take years to achieve. Now, I know some people are going to say we had our issues for four years. However, during these four years there were other things going on as well. It was not all bad for either of us and we admit this freely. I do not think, it should take four years to progress to where we were when we first met (with regards to feeling safe with each other enough to progress on the physical side). I also know everyone is different and some people take longer. I agree. However, I also agree that some people are classic heel draggers and fear only change itself. Slow is one thing, snails pace is another.

Mineownself -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Erm, it doesn't seem like it's definitely in the past based on what you report here on this board. You got pretty worked up over your wife saying a backrub from you would not help her a particular day. And you went on a marathon sulk after your anniversary. Until you've established a reliable track record of no arguing and no sulking when your wife turns down physical contact, it's unreasonable to expect her to trust you not to do those things given your history. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, but hear is another beautiful thing about this board. I can vent, get it out of my system, listen to you wonderful people tell me how I am wrong and then regroup. Doing this, I do not react in a worse way towards my W. I can somewhat see where I am going off track before I actually go off track with her. Please to not mis-inturpret my vent and spilling what is in my mind with how or what I say to my W. What you are calling me being angry is probably a little of frustration mixed with anger mixed with confusion mixed with feeling rejected and lonely. This is not necessarily what I am saying or portraying to my W. I try to be explicite on this board. I do try to give detailed examples when my W and I have some conversations because I may not understand why it went a certain way. The clarity I get from the good people here helps me imensely.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Again, you got really angry over your anniversary. That wasn't that long ago. Some of your other posts it's hard to tell whether you're venting out of anger or frustration or both.

I have noticed you more than once insisting you weren't angry and weren't sulking when you were in fact making very angry statements and describing clearly sulking behavior on your part.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thats fair and is inturpretation. You know how someone can do some action. Then if that person says nothing, one can inturpret it in one way. However, if the person actually says something about why they acted a certain way and gave clear understandings, one probably would inturpret their actions differently? This is sometimes what happens to all of us. On this board, I am practicing radical honesty with all of you. I am not holding back on what my true feelings are because I feel I have nothing too looses. However, it is unfortunate that at this time I feel like I cannot be this communicative with my W because it is an LB at this time. I need to gain her confidence and emotional closeness before she will feel comfortable in opening up. I am starving for conversations with her regarding how she feels. I am open and willing to truly listen (probably for the first time in a long time). It is just unfortunate, my W may not feel comfortable enough to actually take advantage of this yet. I cannot push her to do this, even though I so dearly desire her to want to communicate with me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> When she says so, of course. You keep offering up excuses as to why you can't talk about these things with your wife. People here keep pointing out that the path from withdrawl to intimacy goes through the state of conflict. The two of you will have to learn a mutually safe and effective way to talk about these things. Jewel's last post is really good on this topic.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Great, I would love to be able to feel confident that my W will eventually tell me she feels like being intimate with me (if she ever does in fact feel like this). However, I personnally, do not have the confidence that she would say something if she felt like this. This is not meant as a DJ. It is purely how I feel. I do understand that the path from withdrawl to intimacy includes a trip through conflict. What I do not understand, or may be failing to grasp is: have we not went through this conflict part already? I feel we have went through a lot of conflict already and I would be willing to bet my W may feel the same way. So I guess I do not get it. Is there a lot more conflict we need to go through yet or are we through the conflict and now starting the healing and rebuilding stages?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Hrm, there's "trying not to" do something, and there's just plain not doing it. It doesn't matter that you "try not to" play head games with your wife; what matters is that you do actually do this.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">See, this statement I do not get. This is because, I am not playing games with my W. If you are refering to the "ring" thing, I took my ring off for me, not to impact her. Based upon statements she has openly made to numerous persons, the concept of wedding rings means more to me than it does to her. This is in part due to me actually being a romantic. I took my ring off for a week and it hurt me to do this. I did it for me because I was very emotional at that point and it was a step towards walking away. It was my way of going through a decision point, probably the closest I've come to leaving. It was in no way to "play a game on my W." Other times I may react to things based upon my emotional state at the time, which I freely admit is hard for me to keep in check once in a while due to where our M was at. These reactions of mine are certainly not done to get an effect from my W. I am sorry if my actions are mis-inturpreted as games, but please accept my clarification that they are not.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I noticed that while you did address trying to understand your wife, and yes, you are absolutely right that the perspectives you get from people here on how she might feel are very valuable, you once again skirted the issue of being radically honest with your wife yourself.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do not understand. I am totally willing to be radically honest with my W. I have absolutely no problems with this. The only thing is my W does not usually like to discuss anything about our R at the moment. When I try to talk about anything, including saying something like, "I was such a fool all these years," she immediately clams up. My problem is not about being radically honest with my W, it is about how/when to discuss things and how to progress our M with her still feeling uncomfortable with discussing anything. When we go to the MC, I can tell that as we walk into the MC's room, a wall goes up with my W and her defenses come out immediately. I just do not know how to begin or get things going with her to help her feel interested in progressing our M through building a comfort level in her with regards to actually talking about things.

I am in absolute agreement with you. I have been trying very hard to learn and accept (though it is at times difficult) the things I do that cause my W to not feel a comfort level. Unfortunately, I need to learn how to get the chance from her to be able to show her we can talk about all the areas of our M and work towards solutions for both of us. I am totally willing. I have learned SOME new skills from you guys (thank you). I just want to know how do I go about getting the opportunity, when she sees really any discussion regarding our M as an LB. I mean, I could say, "Honey, I just wanted to thank you for making me feel great tonight when you gave me a hug." She clams up if I say this.... How do you get around this?

Thanks,

EL