Hey baba,

I take your point. My concern in the back of my head is that I actually went a year without bringing it up and nothing was said by her. It was as though she was thinking, hey this is great, I am not being bothered anymore. Now, granted, I was not meeting her ENs at the time as I have since learned last April. Maybe it will make a difference to not mention SF while meeting her needs. I guess it can't hurt. I just drives me crazy because I have needs that are not being met. Its just frustrating. Oh well, I guess I could get that monks outfit. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I hope things are progressing well in your M. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

EL

EL, I hear ya. If I had gone without sex for a year we would be divorced now. I do not know how you can take it. And I do not understand how little she cares for you. After all, she has no sex abuse issues and you never raped her or anything....

Our marriage is better mainly because I feel free to ask for sex now and he knows how hard it is for me to ask (women are taught to respond, not to initiate) so he makes sure he is encouraging when I ask. If he cannot do it right then, we set a time good for both of us.

Sure ends the hassle of me wondering when we would have sex again and waiting and waiting....for it.

Have you ever come right out and asked her why she no longer likes sex with you?

<small>[ September 27, 2004, 05:45 PM: Message edited by: baba2 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I see your point as well. The only thing is that I feel this should not take years to achieve. Now, I know some people are going to say we had our issues for four years. However, during these four years there were other things going on as well. It was not all bad for either of us and we admit this freely. I do not think, it should take four years to progress to where we were when we first met (with regards to feeling safe with each other enough to progress on the physical side). I also know everyone is different and some people take longer. I agree. However, I also agree that some people are classic heel draggers and fear only change itself. Slow is one thing, snails pace is another.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hrmm... I can understand what you're saying. But, you need to understand that that is *your choice*. If that is a boundary for you, that's fine. You can word it like this:

Possible Wording:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will not stay in a marriage where it will take more than {x} years to reach {conditions of satisfaction}</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are entitled to the boundary. It would be kind of you to communicate that to your W at some point (althought you're not in a good climate to communicate it right now.)

But, if you are really trying to say:
Possible Wording:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will not stay in a marriage where it will take more than {x} years to reach {conditions of satisfaction} because that means my W is not putting in enough effort</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Then you are establishing a boundary based on a DJ, which, IMNSHO is dangerous. Actually, that is the kind of boundary which I have been told is really basd on an attempt to control someone elses behaviour.

Perhaps what you really mean to say is:
Possible Wording:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will not stay in a marriage where my W resists change to meet my emotional needs </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sounds fine, but again, it has a lot of controlling overtones. It is also impossible to determine someones attitude without being in their head. (As you are learning!)

So how about:

Possible Wording:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will not stay in a marriage where I do not have hope of happiness.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That boundary statement seems okay to me. What do you think? You like it? How do you think your W would react to it?

Of course, you have to avoid playing prophet or judge. (You can't predict the future, and you can't read anyone's mind.)


I'm not trying to tell you what you think here, I'm just running through some boundaries, so you can weigh how you feel about them in your own mind.


Just to give you a perspective on the foot dragging thing, since you mentioned it. My W, darling that she is, hates change. And so, it is *always* pulling teeth, no matter what the change.

I come to find out, recently, that she's an ISTJ and that it is a natural trait of who she is. And moreover that I'm an INTJ and a natural changeaholic! (What if we did it... *this* way?)

So... As always, be careful to understand the behaviour before you personalize. :-D

"I am having trouble staying in a celebate marriage when I like to make love to my wife..."

"Why are you forcing our marriage to remain celebate, honey?"

"I wish to make warm passionate love with you. Don't you want me anymore?"

"Do you see how badly I want to make love with you?"

"Can you understand how badly I want sex with you?"

"How long are you planning on letting our marriage remain celebate?"

"How long are you not going to want to make love to me?"

"Do you desire a completely celebate marriage" "If not, then when can we make love to each other?"

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CommittedToJewel:
<strong> MOS--

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Jewel's last post is really good on this topic. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
I stand by my statement that you are probably not going to have a reliably happy sex life until you learn to talk to each other safely, respectfully, and directly. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">These statements in many ways seem to contradict each other when I read them. It sounds like you are advocating a more aggressive approach than the work slowly week by week with the MC approach I was suggesting.

Could you clarify/verify what you were intending to suggest? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sure. I thought you put it very well. I was aiming to add my opinion that if they can't even discuss sex or other physical intimacy enough to agree on what they're both currently comfortable with, it's probably too soon for whatever activity EL has in mind.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Extremely Lost:
<strong> See, this statement I do not get. This is because, I am not playing games with my W. If you are refering to the "ring" thing, I took my ring off for me, not to impact her. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hmmm...

From a previous post:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Extremely Lost:
<strong>When I was getting dressed, I even took my wedding ring off in my own form of a little protest. I still have it off and do not think she has even noticed.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">and another one:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Extremely Lost:<strong>
I still do not have my ring on and I think she may have finally noticed, but has not said anything.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

I might be stupid but why the heck is she withholding sex from him all this time?

1. She has some sexual problem
2. Hormone problems
3. She is no longer attracted to him
4. She is afraid of getting pregnant again
5. She does not love him enough to fill that need.
6. She is more attracted to other men than him
7. She truly wants celebate marriage
8. She is hostile and wants to punish him.
9. She cannot bring herself to have sex with him
10. She feels he is a bad lover
11. She does not like his looks
12. She does not respect him as a man
13, She cannot get into his style of lovemaking.
14. She is unable to orgasm
15. She is mentally unstable
16. She is just plain mean.
17. She would rather have a pair of sunglasses than sex.

I don't get it, what the heck is the reason for this celebate marriage she forces on them. It would be OK if they were "both" happy with celebacy but most married people want regular lovemaking. I don't understand.....

<small>[ September 27, 2004, 08:09 PM: Message edited by: baba2 ]</small>

Hey EL. I'm glad the wedding went well!!! What progress! That's awesome!

I saw earlier where you called me out about this SF stuff, but I wasn't sure what to reply so I stayed quiet. But I'll throw in my .02 now...

I do know that your wife and I are likely different in this regard. Just by the naure of us having different Ms and different Sf pasts. So I'll try to answer this as I think she might. *puts down my baggage for a moment*

I think that you are making great progress. I think that CTJ and MOS are right in that you aren't there yet as far as being ina place to work on SF in the way you have expressed wanting to work on it.

By that I mean it is apparent that you want to respect your W's needs and sensitivities in going forward, and aren't willing to force the issue before she is ready.

This, in my book, is a good thing.

You keep bringing up the past where your wife went for a year without any change. I can't emphasize enough the role that your LBing would have played in this. It is likley that your wife, similar to me, is not feeling emotionally close to you. This could, for her, lead to a lack of desire. This will especially be the case if you are LBing. So lets consider the last "experiment" that resulted in a year long drout water under the bridge, past history, no longer relevant. Why?

Because you are working on eliminating LBs. Yay! And you are making steady progress at that! Yay!

That being said, I truly do believe it is early yet. You have, if I can remember right, a string of about 2 weeks going without major disruption. The sunglasses was the last major incident right? So only 2 weeks! And even in those two weeks you have seen your wife opening up! Imagine if that stretches to a month! Or even two! You guys could be back on track by Christmas! Wahoo!

But this will take persistence and patience on your part.

As to the stages of M. I think that you are full on in Conflict right now. We see it in all your posts. You are struggling with keeping your motivation to meet her needs while feeling as though yours aren't being met. This also says to me that she is still likely in withdrawal. Now the progress you ahve made is probably moving her closer to conflict, but any incident seems to put her right back on the defensive/emotionally cold path. So it will take some consistency on your part to keep you guys moving forward.

I would say, as a plan, that CTJs outline looks great. That you are making progress, but it isn't time to go for SF or expect everything to be fixed yet.

Kind of like this... you want to be able to do flips off the highdive. But you don't yet know how to swim. Learning the doggie paddle is progress, but it doesn't mean you are ready for the high dive. There are more steps in between. But do take comfort in the fact that any progress is, in fact, moving you closer to your goal.

hang in there

lfc

Yes EL, List all your LB's that caused her to quit wanting to have sex with you. I bet if you list them you can get a handle on them and pretty much eliminate the ones you have already eradicated and work on ones you are just becoming aware of.

But if the list is small, she could have something against you like some resentment or something stopping her from loving you and wanting to help with your sexual needs. Since she seems not to want sex for herself, she at least could meet YOUR sexual needs. If she cared to.

Extremely Lost

I’m so glad to hear the wedding went well and that things are progressing smoothly for you! Good job! *cheer*

Things on my end are looking up, too. Closing is this Thursday (cross your fingers all goes well) so the chaos is HOPEFULLY coming to an end.

I’m going to hop into the conversation all ready in progress. I ya’ll don’t mind too much.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> However, it is unfortunate that at this time I feel like I cannot be this communicative with my W because it is an LB at this time. I need to gain her confidence and emotional closeness before she will feel comfortable in opening up. I am starving for conversations with her regarding how she feels. I am open and willing to truly listen (probably for the first time in a long time). It is just unfortunate, my W may not feel comfortable enough to actually take advantage of this yet. I cannot push her to do this, even though I so dearly desire her to want to communicate with me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I urge you to bring this issue up in MC. Remember, you have an agreement with your MC to encourage your wife to communicate with you about this issue. I’d like to caution you about a couple of things first. One, you need to be very, very prepared to accept what your wife says – that means, be ready to potentially receive some bad news. Sexuality and intimacy are very touchy subjects and (I’ll use myself as an example) sometimes the explanation for “why not or when” is nebulous and wrapped up in a lot of very strong emotions that might be from some time in the past. Talking about them helps ME to rationalize and examine them. But when they first come out, in their raw form, they can come out in a way that you would find very discouraging or possibly hurtful. In order to build trust, it’s going to be VERY important that your wife has a safe place to say things that she thinks as a way to examine them without worrying about hurting your feelings. Remember, these are all thoughts and feelings that are changeable. None of it has to be “TRUE” in the sense that you are actually like that. It’s simply “TRUE” in the sense that it accurately reflects her current thought/emotional life. I’m going to post a little about my thoughts on this on Lookingforchange’s update thread in a little while. You might want to look for that.

I know you like examples, so I’ll give you one.

It might come out that she’s unwilling to engage in intimacy because she feels that’s all you care about and you are only working on the marriage because you want her to have sex with you. Now, that might make you sad or unhappy because of all the great effort you’ve been putting into trying to make her happy and meet her needs. I caution you to set aside your judgments and realize that she’s telling you the reason she has for “why.” It’s true and it’s valid that she feels that way. It doesn’t make it true or valid that you really only want sex. If you use that admission on her part to EDUCATE her or EXPLAIN to her your point of view, you will be LOOSING an opportunity to make her safe. A better method of approaching that will be to explore with her why she feels that way and whether or not your current actions support that view or do not support it.

YALWE (Yet another long winded example)


Her: I think that the only reason you want to do all this <work on the marriage> is because you want sex. All you want is sex.

You: *heroic effort to refrain from asking for reassurance or explain how you REALLY feel* Wow. Yeah, I can see why that would put a damper on wanting to be intimate with me. Of course, you’re right in the sense that it really is very important to me that we have a good intimate relationship. (gently now) Do I really act as though all I want is to have sex with you?

Her: (wild speculation on my part) Well, no.. not all the time. But it always seems that it comes back to sex. We’ll work on something or you’ll say you’ve changed and then the next thing, it comes back to that. It ALWAYS comes back to that.

You: Oh, yeah, that makes sense. It really does always seem to come back to that at some point. It’s probably because it IS important to me. Of course, what confuses me is how that will ever improve if it didn’t come back to that. Or, how that can be important to me so that I want to fix it but not the only thing I really want. Any thoughts on that?

Her: …



See how the conversation doesn’t attempt to talk her out if her ideas or convince her that you really don’t feel that way? Instead, you’re gently exploring using those wonderful **I** messages how she experiences you. Set aside your message for a while and focus completely on hearing and understanding HER message. Your turn will come. The minute you present an arguing stance or bring up your hurt feelings, she is going to dive for cover. That is because she doesn’t want to hurt you and she won’t feel safe sharing.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> do understand that the path from withdrawl to intimacy includes a trip through conflict. What I do not understand, or may be failing to grasp is: have we not went through this conflict part already? I feel we have went through a lot of conflict already and I would be willing to bet my W may feel the same way. So I guess I do not get it. Is there a lot more conflict we need to go through yet or are we through the conflict and now starting the healing and rebuilding stages? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You have more conflict to go through. The cycle goes like this:

You start out your brand new relationship in a state of intimacy. Both of you are feeling connected and in love with one another. After a while, problems arise, leading to conflict. One or both sides try to address the problems but because of the way the problems are being dealt with (LB’s galore) the love bank gets drained. After a while, frustration and resentment build up as the love bank balance goes down. Withdrawal happens when one spouse is tired and frustrated to the point where s/he simple gives up and withdraws. S/he builds protective walls to escape the agony of constant conflict.

Now, you’re starting to work on the relationship. Effectively enticing a spouse out of withdrawal requires a few things. 1.) Depositing enough love units in the love bank to get the spouse’s attention and interest him/her in the viability of the marriage. 2.) Convincing the withdrawn spouse that it is not only worth while to fix the problems and reinvest in the marriage but that it will be safe and effective to do that. 3.) Entering INTO conflict about the issues which have remained unresolved and negotiating solutions. This conflict is different than the original conflict because, while you’re dealing with strong emotions (anger, resentment, etc) you’re doing it in a way that is productive and solution oriented.

It important to understand that, as a spouse emerges from withdrawal, s/he tends to bounce in and out. It can be very hard to convince someone to try again one s/he has given up. And, any small set back that reinforces the validity of the withdrawal will be more significant at that stage. The withdrawn spouse will pull back into his/her shell like a turtle at the first sign of trouble.

The trouble isn’t the conflict. The conflict is the mechanism by which you will pave the way back to intimacy. As you build confidence in your marriage that these tough issues and disagreements can be handled in a way that you are mutually enthusiastic about you will simultaneously build confidence in the viability and sustainability of the marriage. You can not get back to intimacy until you progress through that state and effectively learn to manage the conflict and strong emotions it brings without LBing your spouse and draining the love bank.

As always, I hope this helps and that you continue to do well.

Mys

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by myschae:
<strong> Extremely Lost

It important to understand that, as a spouse emerges from withdrawal, s/he tends to bounce in and out. It can be very hard to convince someone to try again one s/he has given up. And, any small set back that reinforces the validity of the withdrawal will be more significant at that stage. The withdrawn spouse will pull back into his/her shell like a turtle at the first sign of trouble.

... You can not get back to intimacy until you progress through that state and effectively learn to manage the conflict and strong emotions it brings without LBing your spouse and draining the love bank.
Mys </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, the withdrawn spouse withdraws again - and the withdrawl is more significant this time - BUT you have to get through it in order to get back to intimacy - how DO you accomplish this? Sounds like an uphill battle against a spouse who is now doubly convinced to give up the battle.

Déjà Vu

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So, the withdrawn spouse withdraws again - and the withdrawl is more significant this time - BUT you have to get through it in order to get back to intimacy - how DO you accomplish this? Sounds like an uphill battle against a spouse who is now doubly convinced to give up the battle. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You work the MB system, of course! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Seriously, you work through it by continuing to meet your spouse’s EN’s and building up the LB balance. I didn’t mean the withdrawal was more significant, I meant that any setback would be more significant than it otherwise would be. An incident that would not lead a spouse to withdrawal in a healthy marriage will be more highly weighed and will often put a spouse back into withdrawal as s/he is emerging.

The withdrawn spouse will bounce in and out of withdrawal at what might otherwise be considered a “minor” thing. It is very important to work to eliminate LB’s during the time you are enticing a spouse out of withdrawal. Generally, with a consistent meeting of needs and very consistent lack of LB’s, the withdrawn spouse will emerge and re-engage.

It is an uphill battle, make no mistake about it. It can be VERY challenging to get a withdrawn spouse to re-engage in the marriage! Often, the MB’ing spouse has needs that aren’t being met and yet is working SO hard to fill his/her spouse’s needs. It’s not easy and it isn’t fair. It doesn’t always work, but it’s often an effective strategy to try.

Mys

Mys--

Could you post an outline of how you see things should go when dealing with a spouse in withdrawal, and where you think EL is, kind of like I did above? I am trying to tie together the bits and pieces you've said, and want to make see a whole picture.

And MYS I know you are not "a miracle worker" here but you darn near are!

Could you give EL a timeline so he knows it might take months or years so he is not surprised when it takes longer than he thinks?

I am so impatient as a person that if a thing takes a few months, I get frustrated when I think it could have been done in a couple weeks.

If he knows it will be a L-O-N-G haul, then he can plan for that....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by baba2:

I am so impatient as a person that if a thing takes a few months, I get frustrated when I think it could have been done in a couple weeks.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">since when does misjudging an estimate make you character flawed?

<small>[ September 28, 2004, 03:01 PM: Message edited by: Kasey1 ]</small>

CommittedToJewel

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Could you post an outline of how you see things should go when dealing with a spouse in withdrawal, and where you think EL is, kind of like I did above? I am trying to tie together the bits and pieces you've said, and want to make see a whole picture. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Heh. Ok, I guess I wasn’t very clear.

These three steps are where I see EL being:

1.) Depositing enough love units in the love bank to get the spouse’s attention and interest him/her in the viability of the marriage.

2.) Convincing the withdrawn spouse that it is not only worth while to fix the problems and reinvest in the marriage but that it will be safe and effective to do that.

3.) Entering INTO conflict about the issues which have remained unresolved and negotiating solutions. This conflict is different than the original conflict because, while you’re dealing with strong emotions (anger, resentment, etc) you’re doing it in a way that is productive and solution oriented.


They aren’t necessarily sequential steps, they are simultaneous. Just as EL’s wife is going to bounce in and out of withdrawal, EL needs to follow that lead and bounce in and out of bringing issues up.

The time to start working through some of this conflict is RIGHT NOW. Not next week, not next month, not next year.

So, let me try to be very, very clear.

It is absolutely vital that EL continue to make love deposits by meeting his wife’s needs as she has stated them. He needs to focus REALLY hard on eliminating those LB’s. He has been doing a very nice job with that. He made it through the wedding with flying colors and has had a couple of very good weeks. It’s not time to rest on his laurels quite yet.

As conflict arises on new issues, it’s important that EL manage that conflict in a way that builds mutual enthusiastic agreement. Consider the wedding, again. That conflict was resolved in a very mutually beneficial manner. That is very important. It’s different than what happened in the past. He’s doing so many things right. He’s bringing up the marital problems in MC. He’s responsive and caring towards his wife when he’s with her. He’s encouraging her and showing her support with her outside interests. He’s also learning to apologize when he DOES recognize that he made a mis-step. All that effort is proactively working towards finding a new and better way to solve conflict.

The next step is to gently and gradually revisit historical sources of conflict. Now, that conflict is touchy, runs deep and, right now, even the mention of it causes more conflict. But, it’s time to gather up the courage and start tentatively putting it on the radar screen. Essentially, it’s time to have conflict about the conflict. It’s time to examine the strong avoidance feelings and walls which are built around the conflict so you can get inside and work towards solving it. I’d like to seem him doing that very gently with an extremely light touch. His MC who works with both of them can facilitate those conversations. That is the purpose for the first half of my post – to help EL use a new approach to the conflict and the issue. Those feelings (which are likely to be strong and negative) have to come out and be validated, acknowledged, and processed BEFORE anyone is moving on.

It’s NOT too soon.

There is no way to tell how long it will take to ‘work through’ the issues.

First, you learn to meet your spouse’s EN’s and eliminate harmful LB’s. Fill the Love Bank.

Then, you have to dismantle the protective layers of judgments and resentments. **EL needs to be here.**

Then you have to approach the problem and brain storm solutions.

Then you have to pick one that BOTH find comfortable and sustainable.

THEN you have to test it to see if it worked.

Finally, you have to maintain it - revisit it often enough to tweak things so that both spouse's remain in close, open communication about the issue and it remains solved. (Because, who in his/her right mind wants to do this twice?!)


It’s not something that anyone wakes up one day and says “TODAY is the day I’m solving this issue.” It’s a process, and more likely than not, he’ll wake up one day and find the problem is solved but not really be able to pinpoint what day it happened.

Mys

Mys--

Since I dislike disagreeing with you, let me see if I can work what I am thinking in with what you are thinking. Particularly, so EL can see how to work both sides of the coin.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">First, you learn to meet your spouse’s EN’s and eliminate harmful LB’s. Fill the Love Bank.

Then, you have to dismantle the protective layers of judgments and resentments. **EL needs to be here.**

Then you have to approach the problem and brain storm solutions.

Then you have to pick one that BOTH find comfortable and sustainable.

THEN you have to test it to see if it worked.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">100% agreed.

I think what I am trying to get across is that now is the time that EL and his W start working through *how* they are going to communicate. They can do this in a trial and error fashion, by trying to address issues, but it seems smarter for them to plan their communication.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Then, you have to dismantle the protective layers of judgments and resentments. **EL needs to be here.**</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree that that is where he needs to be, however... I think he is still missing some foundational agreements with his W:

#1, Both sides agree that there are issues that they both need to work on.

#2, Both sides agree what issues need to work on and the priority to work on them.


With out those things, trying to breach resentments will simply create further resentment. (Why are we talking about *this* when the real problem is "X".)

And right now, his W does not seem to be at a strong point to deal with these things. Which is why I recommend that he work with the MC to draw her into building these foundational agreements.

CommittedToJewel


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Since I dislike disagreeing with you, let me see if I can work what I am thinking in with what you are thinking. Particularly, so EL can see how to work both sides of the coin. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don’t think we’re in disagreement here. We’re just saying the same thing in different ways.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think what I am trying to get across is that now is the time that EL and his W start working through *how* they are going to communicate. They can do this in a trial and error fashion, by trying to address issues, but it seems smarter for them to plan their communication. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think that for the short term, they should lean on their marriage counselor and bring these topics up only in marriage counseling. They both need a safe place with a referee present to start examining the layers of emotion surrounding these issues. Before they are going to build agreements, they have to learn to behave in a safe manner with each other. I am hoping (really, really hoping like crazy) that their MC will step up to the plate and actively coach them on this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I agree that that is where he needs to be, however... I think he is still missing some foundational agreements with his W:

#1, Both sides agree that there are issues that they both need to work on.

#2, Both sides agree what issues need to work on and the priority to work on them.


With out those things, trying to breach resentments will simply create further resentment. (Why are we talking about *this* when the real problem is "X".)

And right now, his W does not seem to be at a strong point to deal with these things. Which is why I recommend that he work with the MC to draw her into building these foundational agreements. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bah! You know I’m all about building agreements!

Yeah, but you’re one baby step ahead of me. First I want the emotions to come out and be acknowledged and validated. THEN it will be time for foundational agreements. Right now, perceptions and experiences need to be understood. Get the data first, then try to build agreements on what approach to take.

I don’t think we’re that far apart, after all. Are we?

Mys

I think we're petty much on the same path, except here:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Yeah, but you’re one baby step ahead of me. First I want the emotions to come out and be acknowledged and validated. THEN it will be time for foundational agreements. Right now, perceptions and experiences need to be understood. Get the data first, then try to build agreements on what approach to take.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ironically, I thought you were a baby step ahead of me.

See, I don't think that they are in a place, right now, where they can poke and prod with any kind of safety. Basically, I think with EL's W, any kind of *emotional* discourse is a reminder of EL being needy and will poke her back towards withdrawal.

What I think you are saying is that:

EL and EL's W need to both feel like the other is really *listening* to their emotions and caring about them, before they start dealing with issuess.

I 100% agree with that sentiment.

However, they need to have ground rules established for how they are going to go about doing that. To rephrase what I'm pointing towards...

Step #1, Agree that they both need a way to express their emotions and be heard.

Step #2, Plan a safe way to express their emotions and be heard.

Step #3, Express their emotions at the regular place, validate, etc...

Remember, EL's W has not demonstrated that she can have a conversation without reacting poorly and LB'ing.