Hiya EL,

Good job on the list, and way to go on working on getting it ready well before the next MC session.

I think your list itself is good. But I also think the wording needs tweaking here and there, to help avoid getting a defensive reaction from your wife.

For example, don't use the word "yardstick". It sound too much like you're saying she'd better jump exactly so high or she'll be judged as not measuring up. I know that's not what you're saying -- I'm just trying to say that's a word that can me misinterpreted very easily in this context, so to be safe, just don't use it.

Also, all the places where you use phrasing along the lines of "this helps me know that the other person is in love with me", change it to something more like, "this helps me feel loved and helps make me feel very much in love". The former sounds again a bit too much like the "yardstick" thing again. The latter, which just talks purely about the impact on your feelings, is more likely to be received with enthusiasm.

I hope this is helping. I also hope others here can help tweak the wording to make it as easy as possible for your wife to feel receptive to everything you say here.

EL,

I thought I'd take a crack at rephrasing your list. It was a good list but you did have a few spots where your W may have gotten a little defensive.

My rephrasing may need some work as well.

==============================================

1) Admiration: I feel more in love with someone when I receive their admiration for the things I do. It really makes me feel loved if I receive the admiration for something I did specifically for them.

Thinking about it, it is not as much admiration as it is appreciation. When I do not feel as though the things I do are appreciated, I do not feel as in "love" with someone.

Things that show me appreciation: mostly the little things, concern about my day, positive comments relating to things I am doing, a smile that shows their happiness for my effort.

2) Affection: Affection is an important emotional need for me and makes me feel like that person is really in love with me. If a person is affectionate towards me, I definitely feel closer to them. Ways I like affection shown to me include: seeing my a person's face lite up when I walk into the room; terms of endearment (things like "you mean a lot to me," or "you make me so happy"); a simple touch that shows that person was thinking of me (a hand on my leg, the grabbing of an arm or hand, a hug from behind, an unannounced or unexpected kiss).

3) Physical Intimacy: This is the main way I feel close or connected to someone. It is the ultimate form of my partner trusting me, through them being open and "letting themselves be open" with me. Being physically intimate is allowing one's self to be vulnerable to another. This vulnerability and trust is something I find extremely attractive and cherish. I would never want to do anything to make my partner not feel comfortable with this vulnerability. Ways that I like physical intimacy: sometimes I like to just make out; other times I would just like OS; most of the time I would just like sexual intercourse (desired frequency would be 1 - 2 times per week).

4) Feeling Needed: I am not talking about wanting a needy spouse. Basically, the feeling of being needed once in a while gives me a feeling of being irreplacable. It makes me feel special to a person and with this I gain a further feeling of love for this person.

5) Feeling of self: I am really in love with someone if I can tell that they have remained themselves, while at the same time made me the biggest part of their life. This means, not sacraficing our relationship for the sake of remaining who they think they are. It means a person finding a way to remain who they are, while joining me into their life. I get kind of turned off if I see a person who used to be a clean freak, change later on and not care about cleaning as much. This shows me that they have stopped caring aboout things.

6) Kindness/Politeness: I am attracted to someone who treats me with kindness and respect. I love the feeling of being treated like my feelings and needs are important.

Hey guys, thanks for the support and help on my list.

Mineownself - The positive support means a lot to me, thanks.

MyAlias - Thanks for the rewrite, I like a lot of it.

Do you think I should simply stick to a list for me, or should I add how I surrently feel about where we are at in our M based upon my list? I also realized that it is probably important for me to write down how I like these needs met. I am also going to go "out on a limb" and write down what my W's responses have been to these in the past. The reason I am doing this is not to slam or discredit her. I would like some feedback as to how to respond to what she may say because she has said these things in the past. So please, do not take this as my being negative towards my W. Help me to prepare the best possible response so that I can respond in a way that my W hears and understands me and does not feel attacted.

1) Admiration: I feel more in love with someone when I receive their admiration for the things I do. It really makes me feel loved if I receive the admiration for something I did specifically for them. It also makes me feel more in love if I recieve admiration for the things I do that may not be specificly towards one person, but may be for the greater good of the entire family.

Thinking about it, it is not as much admiration as it is appreciation. When I do not feel as though the things I do are appreciated, I do not feel as in "love" with someone.

Things that show me appreciation: mostly the little things, concern about my day, positive comments relating to things I am doing, a smile or a wink that shows their happiness for my effort. These types of actions show me that I was thought about.

{W = "Well, I feel like I do tell you when you do a good job. I think I do show you that you are admired. I think you do not appreciate the things I do."}

{EL = "I think you do make an effort to tell me at times that you appreciate some things that I do, however, it is not in a way that I really recognize that this is what you are doing. This is why I have listed specific things that would better show me this appreciation. They are small things and would go a long way towards me feeling appreciated. I also feel that I try to show you appreciaton, but suspect, I am doing the same thing by showing you appreciation in a way that I would like to be appreciated, but it is not necessarily a way that you feel is best to show you appreciation. If you are willing to list out ways that I could do things better to make you feel more appreciated, I would be happy to give them a try."}

2) Affection: Affection is an important emotional need for me and makes me feel like that person is really in love with me. If a person is affectionate towards me, I definitely feel closer to them. Ways I like affection shown to me include: seeing a person's face lite up when I walk into the room; terms of endearment (things like "you mean a lot to me," or "you make me so happy"); a simple touch that shows that person was thinking of me (a hand on my leg, the grabbing of an arm or hand, a hug from behind, an unannounced or unexpected kiss); taking a moment and initiating cuddling.

{W = "I do these things!" although I believe my W feels this is a true statement, it is not actually the case. However, I cannot think of a way to respond to her that would not cause a back and forth argument at this time. I am open to suggestions here.}

3) Physical Intimacy: This is the main way I feel close or connected to someone. It is the ultimate form of my partner trusting me, through them being open and "letting themselves be open" with me. Being physically intimate is allowing one's self to be vulnerable to another. This vulnerability and trust is something I find extremely attractive and cherish. I would never want to do anything to make my partner not feel comfortable with this vulnerability. Ways that I like physical intimacy: sometimes I like to just make out; other times I would just like OS; some of the time I would like sexual intercourse (desired frequency would be 1 - 2 times per week).

Here I think I may be coming on a little storng because my W has not been into OS since I have met her. Maybe, I should not be "adding" something that may come to her as a curve ball. On the other hand, it is about me and what I like. I just do not know what to do here.

{Listing this need makes me very nervous, for obvious reasons. As you all know, my W feels or atleast states that I am only after sex. She makes me feel ashamed for having this desire. She makes me feel bad and guilty and as though I am a master-manipulator with one goal in mind. She makes me feel like I am a pig for even thinking about this. My W's response = <Crossing her arms and immediately adding another brick to her wall> "I knew it! It comes down to this! I knew this was the reason for all of this! Everything would be OK for you if we just had sex every night!" This is where I seem to run into an emotional brick wall myself. I need the most preparation on this response because this is where I shoot myself in the foot all the time. I do not know how to respond. Frankly, I get a little mad hearing this response from her several times. I get mad because it is not fair, nor right for her to judge me for having a desire to be physically intimate with her. I need many suggestions on this one to try and piece together a good solid and positive response for my W.

4) Feeling Needed: I am not talking about wanting a needy spouse. Basically, the feeling of being needed once in a while gives me a feeling of being irreplacable. It makes me feel special to a person and with this I gain a further feeling of love for this person. The ways I like to feel like I am needed are: through verbal phrases such as "I couldn't have done X without you;" or "I need your help" for example.

{W = "This is not who I am. You know this is not who I am. I am not a needy person. You want a woman who is hanging on you and is afraid to do anything without you."}

{EL = "I do not want a needy woman. I just would like to feel needed instead of feeling not needed sometimes." This is usually my response and it obviously does not get the point across. Any sugestions?}

5) Feeling of self: I am really in love with someone if I can tell that they have remained themselves, while at the same time made me the biggest part of their life. This means, not sacraficing our relationship for the sake of remaining who they think they are. It means a person finding a way to remain who they are, while joining me into their life. It is a difficult balance for someone because I need to feel like I remain the most important thing to them, while they maintain who they are. I get kind of turned off if I see a person who used to be a clean freak, change later on and not care about cleaning as much. This shows me that they have stopped caring aboout things. The ways I like to feel secure with this are: being shown through examples, not so much in verbage.

{W = "I tried to be who I am and I had to change because you were upset and I would get into trouble for being who I was. To avoid "getting into trouble" I gave up on who I was to stay in this M."}

{EL = "I fell in love with who you are. I do not have a problem with you being who you are. I just need to feel like no matter who you are, I am the biggest part of who you are and vice versa."}

6) Kindness/Politeness: I am attracted to someone who treats me with kindness and care for my feelings. I love the feeling of being treated like my feelings and needs are important. I absolutely cannot stand being told that my feelings or needs are not important or realistic. I do not like feeling as though I am being judged for what I like or want.

{W = "This is how I feel! You do this to me! You make me feel like my feelings are not important!"}

{EL = "I am aware that I used to treat you like this. I am very sorry. I did not realize I was acting this way. However, I also feel this way and need to feel like my feelings and needs are not only OK, but important to you because they are MY needs."}

7) Happy & Positive Spouse: I feel more in love with a person who is more positive than negative about things in life. If my partner is unhappy (for whatever reason) it really brings me down. If my partner is generally happy and shows consistent happiness through actions, I feel like I am on top of the World, because the person I am in love with is happy.

{W = "I am happy! I do not go around jumping for joy. I do not understand what you want from me. I am not this emotional person!"}

{My W, although her POV may be that she is happy, goes through life (lately) acting as though she is unhappy. This is not me trying to judge her, even the neighbors have asked me if she is OK, quite frequently, because she comes across in her actions as being unhappy. I do not know how to broach this in the best way. Suggestions please.....}

8) Honesty & Trust: Honesty is huge for me. I have extreme difficulty feeling love towards someone if I feel they are dishonest with me. One of the things I cannot stand the most is if a person is dishonest with me because they are trying to "help" me or are concerned for how I may react. I am deeply in love with someone if I feel I can trust them. I do not think I know how to "completely" trust someone, and am trying to learn this. Based upon what I thought was trust in the past, I really feel in love with someone when I trust them and feel they trust me.

{W = "I completely trust you! I have told you this many times. I do not care if you go out with friends. It does not bother me if you work late evenings. You are the one with the trust problem."}

{Obviously I do have a trust problem. This is why the title of this post is what it is. I have recognized my trust problems and have been trying really hard to work on them. I have consistently admitted my own trust problems and have made every attempt to try and work on them and analyze them so I can "fix" myself. However, my W has stated in MC that she actually does not trust me emotionally. This needs to be worked on. When I bring up her not trusting me emotionally, she says, "I need to learn to trust you emotionally over time." I have spoken about this with the MC and she has agreed that my W is going to have to decide to try and trust me emotionally if she is ever going to trust me emotionally.}

9) Family Oriented: I really feel in love when my partner is a great parent. I really look up to my partner when I see examples of this.

{W = "I am a good mother!"}

{EL = "You are right. You are a good mother. You are meeting this emotional need of mine, quite well."

Please offer me some constructive critisicm on these points. I am really not trying to write something that is emotionally charged about my W, I love her. I am just feeling a bit unsure and confused. I feel like I just became blind and the World is completely different to me now. Our next MC session is this coming Tuesday morning.

Thanks for any help,

EL

Hiya EL,

I think for your list to be most effective, you need to pick one clear goal you want to meet by preparing this list at this time, and let other goals wait.

For example, if you want most to get a list out there of all your ENs and the things that make you feel most loved, that would not be quite the same goal as preparing a list for how your wife can do the most to make you feel more loved in the short term. This is going to work better if you can pick one specific goal that we can help you fine-tune this thing for.

For example, if you want to get all your ENs out there, the part about OS is good. If you want to work on how your wife can make you feel more loved in the short term, leave that one out entirely, because she won't be ready to work on that right now and to get the most in the short term you'd need to avoid clouding the discussion with things that aren't ready to be tackled right now.

Is this making sense?

My personal thought on this is that your wife is often feeling like making you happy is a task she can't handle. The pain she is regularly in from her physical condition would alone make her feel this way, even without any past history of issues between you. I think that right now she needs a lot of small successes in making you happy so that she can start to experience the feeling that making you happy is not an overwhelming task. No, I am not saying it IS an overwhelming task, I'm saying to someone in chronic pain it's going to FEEL that way.

So I would definitely focus on the short-term in the upcoming discussion, and I would focus specifically on things that your wife would find fairly easy to do in the short term, things that will feel good for you without her feeling even more overwhelmed than she already feels. I'd leave sex pretty much out of the discussion entirely, just saying something like, "We all already know sex is important to me, so I don't think we need to talk about it further right now. Right now as I understand it we're talking about other ways to connect and other ways in which the things my wife does make me feel loved and in love with her."

You talked about affection, and that she says she does those things, but you say she doesn't. It sounds like you're both telling the truth, but have different ideas of frequency. If she says she does those things, you could say, "I know you do honey, and I soooo love it when you do, it puts me on top of the world, so I'd really love it if you could do them more often". <insert warm loving smile at her here>

I think a lot of things on your list will go over better with the same approach -- talk about these things as she already does them, maybe mention a specific time she did the particular action, and say how incredibly wonderful you feel when she does these things, so you'd really love it if she did them more often. Maybe when you first start talking about your list, don't call it a list of "things that would make me feel loved", but "things my wife does that make me feel loved".

Extremely Lost

Whew.. it’s been a very busy week! I’m glad I stopped by because…

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 5) Feeling of self: I am really in love with someone if I can tell that they have remained themselves, while at the same time made me the biggest part of their life. This means, not sacraficing our relationship for the sake of remaining who they think they are. It means a person finding a way to remain who they are, while joining me into their life. It is a difficult balance for someone because I need to feel like I remain the most important thing to them, while they maintain who they are. I get kind of turned off if I see a person who used to be a clean freak, change later on and not care about cleaning as much. This shows me that they have stopped caring aboout things. The ways I like to feel secure with this are: being shown through examples, not so much in verbage. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Let me just suggest that you not use cleaning house as an example of your wife staying true to herself. Words can not adequately express the DANGER involved in implying that your wife’s (or any woman’s) housekeeping habits are a reflection of her “true self.” I suggest that you find some sort of neutral example that passes the gender test – or you’d say that about your best male buddy too. Some ideas along that line might be: her work on the committee (community involvement) or potentially encouraging her to pursue her education and how attractive you’d find that.

Ok, I’m going to read the thread more closely now but I thought that might catch you before you leave for the week.

Mys

Hello Mineownself,

You have offered a lot of good suggestions. This homework assignment came about because I mentioned that I feel as though the guages I use to determine if someone is showing me love are wrong. The MC said I should list out the guages I use and we could go through them in the next session. She then said we could see which ones my W can do and which ones she can't. So I guess the assignment is more of a lits what I would like and then go from that list. However, I do take your point, and half of me agrees with you about listing things we know my W is probably not ready for. This is where I am kind of confused as to how to proceed. I do not want to make my W uncomfortable, but ironically, as we have discussed in previous posts, in order to get better, my W (and I) are both going to go through some uncomfortable times, I am afraid.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My personal thought on this is that your wife is often feeling like making you happy is a task she can't handle. The pain she is regularly in from her physical condition would alone make her feel this way, even without any past history of issues between you. I think that right now she needs a lot of small successes in making you happy so that she can start to experience the feeling that making you happy is not an overwhelming task. No, I am not saying it IS an overwhelming task, I'm saying to someone in chronic pain it's going to FEEL that way. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand what you are saying. Ya know, I wonder if part of this assignment is going to end up being for me to better understand my W's ENs because I am certain she feels the same things I do on a couple of the ENs I have listed. This way, she can tell me how she would prefer to have certain ENs met, which up to now she has not been able to tell me. On a note regarding her pain, (not to sound harsh hear), a lot of her pain is made worse by her over doing it. She does not do things to actually make her pain better. She knows better, but chooses to do otherwise. It is hard to be sympathetic when someone does this by choice.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So I would definitely focus on the short-term in the upcoming discussion, and I would focus specifically on things that your wife would find fairly easy to do in the short term, things that will feel good for you without her feeling even more overwhelmed than she already feels. I'd leave sex pretty much out of the discussion entirely, just saying something like, "We all already know sex is important to me, so I don't think we need to talk about it further right now. Right now as I understand it we're talking about other ways to connect and other ways in which the things my wife does make me feel loved and in love with her."
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I totally agree with this. Do you not think it is possible to get both ideas accomplished? Maybe I can get through listing my ENs. Then we could pick some of the easire stuff as what we could work on.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You talked about affection, and that she says she does those things, but you say she doesn't. It sounds like you're both telling the truth, but have different ideas of frequency. If she says she does those things, you could say, "I know you do honey, and I soooo love it when you do, it puts me on top of the world, so I'd really love it if you could do them more often". <insert warm loving smile at her here>
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Although I do think frequency is not at a desirable level for me, I do think we might have more of an issue of it not being the way I appreciate affection. This is why I thought it would be important to list how I value or appreciate affection.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think a lot of things on your list will go over better with the same approach -- talk about these things as she already does them, maybe mention a specific time she did the particular action, and say how incredibly wonderful you feel when she does these things, so you'd really love it if she did them more often. Maybe when you first start talking about your list, don't call it a list of "things that would make me feel loved", but "things my wife does that make me feel loved". </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do like your point here, very much. I will try to thing of specific examples to attach with each EN. Thanks for the kind thoughts. I really appreciate them.

Hey Mys -

And how is your house coming along? I hope you are getting into your groove and things are going as you were hoping. How are the chocolates? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Let me just suggest that you not use cleaning house as an example of your wife staying true to herself. Words can not adequately express the DANGER involved in implying that your wife’s (or any woman’s) housekeeping habits are a reflection of her “true self.” I suggest that you find some sort of neutral example that passes the gender test – or you’d say that about your best male buddy too. Some ideas along that line might be: her work on the committee (community involvement) or potentially encouraging her to pursue her education and how attractive you’d find that.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Very good point! Thanks for catching this. It is so nice to have you guys offering advice. I cannot tell you how much more comfortable this makes me feel going through this whole thing with a support group like you guys. Thanks, so very much. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Have a great weekend everyone,

EL

Extremely Lost

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My W said, "The only problem we have is affection, but I still go back to saying that if we were having sex everyday, you would be fine." I said, "This is not true." I know, I should have come up with something different instead of disagreeing with her POV, but I was taken by surprise. I then tried to recover and said, "Most men show love through a physical relationship." The MC stepped in and said, "That is not true, most men do not show love through a physical relationship. You do." It really bothered me that the MC disagreed with me and validated my W's position that it is basically ok to not have a physical relationship in a M. Then the MC said, "OK. Here is a homework assignment for you. I want you to right down the ways you measure love. Bring them to the next session and we will go through them. Then W can say, I can do that, I can't do that and we can go from there." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">*sighs* I think that one thing that is going to have to change (within you) is that you are going to have to somehow overcome your reluctance to admit to your physical needs. I understand it is very difficult for you but as long as you keep sending the mixed messages “Yes, it’s important ---- NO, it’s not important” to your wife you’re not going to get anywhere. I understand that she caught you by surprise and so you reacted with your normal “No, that’s not true.” reaction and then got somewhat flustered. What needs to happen, is that you need to drill into yourself a different response the next time this comes up. You need a response that validates the truth that SF is your #1 EN and yet also indicates that you don’t want just SF in a vacuum.

Here are some ideas:


It’s true that physical affection is a high need for me. I would be much happier with more physical affection and sex. However I don’t feel that is all there is to building this relationship. There are other things I am looking for in addition to affection and sex.

--

You might be right that things would be much better for me if we were able to have sex every day. However, I’d like this marriage to be about making us BOTH happy. Something in the way you said that seemed to imply that you would be more unhappy if we had sex every day. Am I wrong about that?



Now then, about your list.

I find it interesting that you put your most important need: Physical Intimacy, third on the list. Perhaps this is unintentional and perhaps you intentionally did this in order to ‘not look like all you’re after is SF.’ I’d like to encourage you to RANK ORDER your needs. I think it is important that you build some confidence in stating that SF is a high priority need for you – not because 75% of other men need it too (or however many I made that number up), not because you’re a shallow guy, not because <insert negative judgment or attempt at explanation> but simply because you are YOU and important and precious just as you are. There is nothing wrong with wanting physical intimacy in your marital relationship and RESPECTFULLY requesting it.

No one – not your wife or your counselor or anyone on this board – can make you feel badly about your EN’s. You do that to yourself. Make a decision to accept yourself for who you are and what you want as whole, complete, and unbroken and I think you’ll have a much easier time asking for (and hopefully getting) what you are looking for. Progress will start when you STOP DEFENDING your needs or EXPLANING them (in terms of why you want them vs how they can be met which is good explanation). Take OWNERSHIP of your EN’s and have some pride in yourself for having figured out what makes you happy.

Next time your wife says “You see! All you want is sex!” Sit there calmly and agree: “Well, it might not be ALL I want, but it is very important to me.”

In fact, I think you need to be a bit more assertive about this need. Your wife needs to understand that the marriage will not be ‘restored’ until you are having mutually satisfactory relations. If her idea of a sustainable marriage does NOT include regular, frequent SF, it doesn’t sound like that will be a sustainable marriage for you. You need to be RADICALLY HONEST about that point. If your future marriage does not include the ability to negotiate your sexual/intimate life, then your future marriage is in jeopardy. The more you try to ‘sneak this in’ after dealing with everything else – all the while pretending it’s not that big of a deal, the more damage you are doing to your future marriage. This is your opportunity to put your cards on the table, so lay them all down.

Now then, about the rest of your list, once again, I’d like to encourage you to put some rank order to your list. It seems a little long to me but then again, that might be because of the additional comments you made describing your W’s anticipated reactions. I’d be a little concerned that you make sure you frame that this is just a comprehensive list and you aren’t expecting everything on the list tomorrow.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> {EL = "I think you do make an effort to tell me at times that you appreciate some things that I do, however, it is not in a way that I really recognize that this is what you are doing. This is why I have listed specific things that would better show me this appreciation. They are small things and would go a long way towards me feeling appreciated. I also feel that I try to show you appreciaton, but suspect, I am doing the same thing by showing you appreciation in a way that I would like to be appreciated, but it is not necessarily a way that you feel is best to show you appreciation. If you are willing to list out ways that I could do things better to make you feel more appreciated, I would be happy to give them a try."} </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is important that you not frame what you are asking for as “small things” because they might not BE small things to her. Substitute “specific” instead of “small” : “They are specific things that would go a long way towards me feeling appreciated.”

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> {W = "I do these things!" although I believe my W feels this is a true statement, it is not actually the case. However, I cannot think of a way to respond to her that would not cause a back and forth argument at this time. I am open to suggestions here.} </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Instead of arguing “No, you don’t!” Ask her to do them more often. Ask her if she’s willing to increase the frequency of how often she does it. That will avoid an argument and (likely) accomplish the same thing.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Here I think I may be coming on a little storng because my W has not been into OS since I have met her. Maybe, I should not be "adding" something that may come to her as a curve ball. On the other hand, it is about me and what I like. I just do not know what to do here. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Put it on the table.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> {Listing this need makes me very nervous, for obvious reasons. As you all know, my W feels or atleast states that I am only after sex. She makes me feel ashamed for having this desire. She makes me feel bad and guilty and as though I am a master-manipulator with one goal in mind. She makes me feel like I am a pig for even thinking about this. My W's response = <Crossing her arms and immediately adding another brick to her wall> "I knew it! It comes down to this! I knew this was the reason for all of this! Everything would be OK for you if we just had sex every night!" This is where I seem to run into an emotional brick wall myself. I need the most preparation on this response because this is where I shoot myself in the foot all the time. I do not know how to respond. Frankly, I get a little mad hearing this response from her several times. I get mad because it is not fair, nor right for her to judge me for having a desire to be physically intimate with her. I need many suggestions on this one to try and piece together a good solid and positive response for my W. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Once again, your W is not “making” you feel any particular way. You are reacting to her words in a specific way that YOU have control over. You do not have to feel like a pig or a master manipulator even if your W calls you one (and it really doesn’t sound like she ever uses those words, you supply those all on your own). This is a VERY IMPORTANT issue for you.

I also think that this issue is eroding trust between you. You SAY it’s not that important because you try to deny how much you desire SF. But your ACTIONS are different. If you think about it, that is partially what your W is always saying. You ACT as though SF is important. Well, yeah, that’s because it IS important to you. Stop getting defensive over this need and trying to justify it. Be upfront and TELL your wife that your vision of a great marriage includes regular, frequent SF. Let her know that NOW. If that is not going to work for her in the long term, then she needs to be aware that you are not going to be happy in this marriage. You’re not asking her to change this tomorrow or next week, but as you work towards a loving marriage this is absolutely part of what you are seeking for your sustainable, future marriage.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 4) Feeling Needed: I am not talking about wanting a needy spouse. Basically, the feeling of being needed once in a while gives me a feeling of being irreplacable. It makes me feel special to a person and with this I gain a further feeling of love for this person. The ways I like to feel like I am needed are: through verbal phrases such as "I couldn't have done X without you;" or "I need your help" for example.

{W = "This is not who I am. You know this is not who I am. I am not a needy person. You want a woman who is hanging on you and is afraid to do anything without you."}
{EL = "I do not want a needy woman. I just would like to feel needed instead of feeling not needed sometimes." This is usually my response and it obviously does not get the point across. Any sugestions?} </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think the problem with the way this is stated is the word “needed.” Do you think if you substituted the word “Special” it would work just as well? To be honest, this one is a bit vague to me, as well. In a way, it reminds me of the need to be appreciated, but it seems like you are looking for something even more specific. Can you try and describe a little more clearly what exactly you are looking for? Is it close to feeling appreciated?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 5) Feeling of self: I am really in love with someone if I can tell that they have remained themselves, while at the same time made me the biggest part of their life. This means, not sacraficing our relationship for the sake of remaining who they think they are. It means a person finding a way to remain who they are, while joining me into their life. It is a difficult balance for someone because I need to feel like I remain the most important thing to them, while they maintain who they are. I get kind of turned off if I see a person who used to be a clean freak, change later on and not care about cleaning as much. This shows me that they have stopped caring aboout things. The ways I like to feel secure with this are: being shown through examples, not so much in verbage.

{W = "I tried to be who I am and I had to change because you were upset and I would get into trouble for being who I was. To avoid "getting into trouble" I gave up on who I was to stay in this M."}

{EL = "I fell in love with who you are. I do not have a problem with you being who you are. I just need to feel like no matter who you are, I am the biggest part of who you are and vice versa."} </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In addition to your choice of an example (which I pointed out earlier), this is also nebulously described. For example, what does it mean for you to “feel that I am biggest part of who you are”? What does that mean?

This need is very confusing to me because of the way it’s described. On the one hand, it sounds like you’re saying “Keep your own life and interests and be independent.” And on the other hand, it sounds like you’re saying “Make me the focus of your life.” The two things don’t seem to be that congruent. Can you make this clearer? Perhaps if you chose a different example, it would be easier to understand.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 6) Kindness/Politeness: I am attracted to someone who treats me with kindness and care for my feelings. I love the feeling of being treated like my feelings and needs are important. I absolutely cannot stand being told that my feelings or needs are not important or realistic. I do not like feeling as though I am being judged for what I like or want.

{W = "This is how I feel! You do this to me! You make me feel like my feelings are not important!"}

{EL = "I am aware that I used to treat you like this. I am very sorry. I did not realize I was acting this way. However, I also feel this way and need to feel like my feelings and needs are not only OK, but important to you because they are MY needs."} </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 7) Happy & Positive Spouse: I feel more in love with a person who is more positive than negative about things in life. If my partner is unhappy (for whatever reason) it really brings me down. If my partner is generally happy and shows consistent happiness through actions, I feel like I am on top of the World, because the person I am in love with is happy.

{W = "I am happy! I do not go around jumping for joy. I do not understand what you want from me. I am not this emotional person!"}

{My W, although her POV may be that she is happy, goes through life (lately) acting as though she is unhappy. This is not me trying to judge her, even the neighbors have asked me if she is OK, quite frequently, because she comes across in her actions as being unhappy. I do not know how to broach this in the best way. Suggestions please.... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Uhm, you do realize the danger of telling your W that she’s not happy if she says that she is, right?

This is a tough one because it sounds as though you’re trying to define FOR HER how she should act if she’s happy. It almost sounds as though you’re saying “You’re not happy unless you can demonstrate to me that you are by doing: X, Y, and Z.” I think you’d get a lot farther a lot faster on this one if YOU become willing to learn the signs that YOUR WIFE says indicates she’s happy rather than asking her to change her outward emotional affect to be in line with what you consider “Happy” behavior.

I know you like direct, so I’ll give it to you straight on this one. If I were your W and you said something like this to me, my response to you would be: “Let me manage your expectations on this. I have certain emotional reactions to my own emotions. I will be having those reactions for the rest of my life. If the way I act “happy” isn’t how you want me to act happy or isn’t something you associate with happy, then I suggest you study my behavior a little more closely. I am not willing to change how I experience my own emotions to fit your model of how they should be experienced. You’re going have to learn to live with me as I am on this one.

Simply put, I would not be willing to change how I experience my own emotions just to fit someone else’s model of what those emotions should look like. If you want to be a party and share my emotions with me, it is going to have to be on MY terms. I’m not going to window dress them for you.

Now, those are my feelings about this (essentially, I’d draw a boundary here). But, I don’t know how your wife feels about it, and she might be willing to do that for you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 8) Honesty & Trust: Honesty is huge for me. I have extreme difficulty feeling love towards someone if I feel they are dishonest with me. One of the things I cannot stand the most is if a person is dishonest with me because they are trying to "help" me or are concerned for how I may react. I am deeply in love with someone if I feel I can trust them. I do not think I know how to "completely" trust someone, and am trying to learn this. Based upon what I thought was trust in the past, I really feel in love with someone when I trust them and feel they trust me.

{W = "I completely trust you! I have told you this many times. I do not care if you go out with friends. It does not bother me if you work late evenings. You are the one with the trust problem."}

{Obviously I do have a trust problem. This is why the title of this post is what it is. I have recognized my trust problems and have been trying really hard to work on them. I have consistently admitted my own trust problems and have made every attempt to try and work on them and analyze them so I can "fix" myself. However, my W has stated in MC that she actually does not trust me emotionally. This needs to be worked on. When I bring up her not trusting me emotionally, she says, "I need to learn to trust you emotionally over time." I have spoken about this with the MC and she has agreed that my W is going to have to decide to try and trust me emotionally if she is ever going to trust me emotionally.} </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree that there are different levels of trust. But, trust also has to be earned. You can’t demand that someone “trust you emotionally” until you prove to that person’s satisfaction that you are trustworthy. I think the best thing you can ask for in regards to this issue is more feedback from your wife to guide your course in gaining her emotional trust. Asking her to decide to try to trust you emotionally because you’ve been working on it is unlikely to go over very well. Instead, I suggest you ask for continuing feedback on what is working to gain her trust and what doesn’t.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 9) Family Oriented: I really feel in love when my partner is a great parent. I really look up to my partner when I see examples of this.

{W = "I am a good mother!"}

{EL = "You are right. You are a good mother. You are meeting this emotional need of mine, quite well." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And how is your house coming along? I hope you are getting into your groove and things are going as you were hoping. How are the chocolates? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Heh, slow but good. The chocolate is.. .GONE.. send more! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Mys

Hello Mys,

Sending Chocolate.........

Yesterday, my W and I had some setbacks that are causing me to question whether we are ready for this Tuesdays "list my ENs" session. Maybe it is me being chicken. I will describe a couple of things and look for any and all thoughts.

The first and most worrisome is in regards with our 4 year old son. Just this weekend he has started saying some really odd things that have started to scare my W and I. Since we only have one child, we do not know if it is normal or not. Basically, our S has said things like, "I am thinking about starting a fire." or "I want to hurt a pet." Now our S is shown a lot of love and we are very devoted parents. He is only 4 years old. The problem is, we think this is just for attention. However, it is extremely worrisome to us and we freak out thinking he is becoming a phsycho or something. Last night we discussed bringing him to a couple of sessions possibly to talk about what he is thinking. We also think he has gotten some of these thoughts from TV. However, he says he is struggling to get these thoughts out of his head. Scary, eh? Of Course, as parents we are fearing the worst and think we have been bad parents, when in fact, it is the opposite. Everyone comments how good of parents we are and how well behaved and adjusted our 4 year old really is. We are both hoping this is just a phase and it will pass, but we are very disturbed about it none the less. Last night my W said, "We should work on this issue with our son before anything else." I said, "We need to work in tandum with our son's issue and ours, because we cannot be putting things in front of our issues and ignore them." My W was not really pleased with my answer.

The second issue is that my dad and step mom came for a visit this weekend. The last time they came for a weekend was in April (just before a HUGE blow out argument my W and I had; You know, the argument that caused me to find the MB site and got the entire ball rolling forward). Well, yesterday, my W and I got off to the wrong start, and I really do not know why. The whole day, I felt as though my W was treating me with contempt and hatred. Obviously, my W also felt as though I was not reacting well to how I felt I was being treated and the whole day was on and off with little spats. Well, last night we went to bed around 11:00PM. I got woken up at 12:45AM by my W who was complaining I was snoring and she could not sleep. I was on my back and she demanded that I roll on my side. She demanded this in anger, which came across to me poorly. I rolled over and said, "Honey, please ask me nicely. I will do whatever you'd like." She said, "I have asked you two other times before this and I have not been able to get to sleep!" I said, "I am sorry, but this is the first time I am actually AWARE of you asking because I was not awake the other two times." Then I moved the covers at my feet and my W said, "You took the covers from me. Now I do not have enough covers." I actually did not have enough covers on my side and this was getting me upset. Remember, I was half asleep. I said, "Honey, I just moved the covers on my feet, thats all. I did not meant to take any covers away from you." She said, "Now I am up!" She went into the bathroom. While she was gone, I did not move in the bed. I felt bad that she was talking to me in a tone that made me feel like she hated me. She got back into bed and said, "What happened to the covers?" I said, "Nothing, I have not moved since you left." She said, "You are lying." I said, "I am not lying. I do not lie to you. Since April, I have been trying to be careful of everything I say to you so that I do not come across as lying." She said, "This is just an example of how you lie to me about everything!" Now this really hurt, because I do not lie to my W. I did not understand this and was very hurt and confused. She got out of bed and said, "I have had enough, and don't follow me!" She went down stairs for a little bit. I stayed in bed and was sad, and hurt. She left and jabbed me and demanded that I do not follow. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I waited until she came upstairs. She stayed in our bonus room outside the bedroom. I went out to try and talk. I had time to think about things while she was gone. I said, "Honey, I heard you say that you feel I lie to you all the time. I certainly do not feel as though I lie to you. Your words really hurt me and made me feel as though you hate me. Therefore, it would be very helpful if you would let me know when you are feeling like I am lying to you because I obviously am not seeing this and do not understand your feelings." She said angrily "Well, I guess I'll have to point them out to you then! If you are going to continue arguing, then close our S's bedroom door, because this is probably what is making him psycho!" Again, what she was implying really hurt. I got up and started to walk to our bedroom and turned and said, "Honey, I do not want a marriage where we sleep in different bedrooms." She got up and shut our S's door and said, "I guess I'll have to do it!" I said, "You gave me two choices, stop or shut the door. I was choosing to stop, and therefore did not go and shut the door." She said, "You are not stopping." I said, "Maybe our S is acting the way he is because he does not see his parents being affectionate with each other." She said, "I am very affectionate with S." I said, "Yes, but he sees that we are not affectionate with each other and I think this is really affecting him." Seeing that this was becoming a "circular" argument, I then got up and went down stairs. My W then said, "Now, where are you going?" I said, "I am wide awake now and will not be able to fall asleep so I am going down stairs. You can go on the bed if you'd like."

I went down stairs and watched TV until 5:30 AM. At around 4:00 AM my W came down stairs and said, "If I knew you were going to stay down hear, I would have went into the bedroom. It does not make sense that nobody is in the bedroom. I could not believe that she said, what she said. She was well aware that I had said for her to go in the bed earlier. Anyway, I said, "It really bothers me that we are not sharing a bed. I do not want a M where the H and W do not sleep in the same room." She said, "Well I do not know what to do anymore, you refuse to go see a doctor about your snoring." I said, "I'll do anything to avoid sleeping in seprate beds." She went upstairs and went to bed. I stayed down stairs until 5:30 and then went up to bed. I could tell that when I got into bed, she was still awake. When I got up this morning I kissed her on the back of her head (as she had asked me to do, because I knew she would be tired). She woke up and said, "I love you." I said, "I love you." Then I left for work.

Now, I find myself questioning if I should go through with listing my ENs as originally planned. I feel as though my W might be upset because she may think I am putting things ahead of our S and also that we slipped backwards quite a bit from last night. Her feeling as though I lie to her "ALL THE TIME" is a new thing that she has not really brought up before. I usually am quite happy with myself because I think of myself as a person that does not really lie. Therefore, you can see how I am feeling hurt by all this.

On another note, Friday night we had a neighbor couple over on a spur of the moment kind of evening. The couple made some comments regarding sex and my W actually chimed in the conversation. This bothered me a bit and I did not say anything in this conversation because I was feeling quite down about the subject. My W's comments were geared towards how women do not really need sex, and the neighbor woman was agreeing with her. My W also made the comment about how a guy rarely turns a woman down for sex. One of the things I actually started considering yesterday is that I am beginning to feel a little unattracted (physically) towards my W. Maybe this is a good thing?

I don't know. I am so confused. What do you guys think. I am sorry for leaning on you guys, but I need your help to get through these difficult times. The communication is still not there between my W and I, and I need to talk about this.

Take Care,

EL

Extremely Lost

I’m sorry to hear you had a rough weekend.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Last night we discussed bringing him to a couple of sessions possibly to talk about what he is thinking. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It might be worthwhile to look into finding a competent child psychologist to talk to your son. However, I strongly discourage you from bringing your son with you to your MC sessions or involving him in any way. Your marriage issues are between the two of you and completely independent from your parental relationship. Do not involve him in those sessions. You do need to find a way to work TOGETHER to raise and parent your son which is part of your marriage, but I think that involving him directly is a very bad idea and could cause further problems down the road. Keep the two issues separate.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Last night my W said, "We should work on this issue with our son before anything else." I said, "We need to work in tandum with our son's issue and ours, because we cannot be putting things in front of our issues and ignore them." My W was not really pleased with my answer. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, both of you stated your positions on the matter but I don’t see anywhere where you stopped to build agreement. She’s not happy with your answer. You can’t dictate to her what issues she will work on. She can’t dictate to you which issues you will work on. You both need to come to some AGREEMENT on what you’re doing so you can focus your efforts. Where is the negotiation and agreement phase on this issue?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I waited until she came upstairs. She stayed in our bonus room outside the bedroom. I went out to try and talk </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know, it was probably bad timing for the whole discussion. It was the middle of the night, both of you had been awakened. She hadn’t been sleeping – and was probably a wee bit cranky (who wouldn’t be). Discretion is often the better part of valor. Don’t have these discussions when the deck is stacked against you. If you all ready know your wife is cranky, upset, tired, etc. that is not a good time to discuss matters. Let it wait until morning and calmer, more reasoned minds prevail.

I’m guessing that about 60% of what happened was because you were both awake in the middle of the night and not really in the best frame of mind to be having the discussion.

Think about it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Now, I find myself questioning if I should go through with listing my ENs as originally planned. I feel as though my W might be upset because she may think I am putting things ahead of our S and also that we slipped backwards quite a bit from last night. Her feeling as though I lie to her "ALL THE TIME" is a new thing that she has not really brought up before. I usually am quite happy with myself because I think of myself as a person that does not really lie. Therefore, you can see how I am feeling hurt by all this. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, it’s a good thought. If I were you, I’d offer my wife a choice. ”Honey, I know we were supposed to go over my list of needs this session but it seems as though we have a more important topic to discuss. I’m willing to delay sharing my list if you want to discuss how we can come to some agreement about what to do about working on this issue with <our son>. I know I’ve all ready said this, but I really feel strongly that we should CONTINUE to work on building our marriage at the same time we focus on <our dear son>. I know you feel differently. I think that whatever we decide to do, we need to decide to do it jointly for it to have the best benefits. Maybe our MC can help us today to figure out what is the wisest course of action so that we both can feel happy can confident about what we’re doing. What are your thoughts on that?

I suspect that the “lie to her ALL THE TIME” was more a product of being frustrated, cranky, tired, and it being 2am (or whatever time) than anything else.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I don't know. I am so confused. What do you guys think. I am sorry for leaning on you guys, but I need your help to get through these difficult times. The communication is still not there between my W and I, and I need to talk about this. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you two had an argument in the middle of the night (never a good time) which was probably largely because of the additional stress and worry over your son’s recent behavior and your parents dropping in for an unexpected visit. I think your wife LB’d during the discussion – mostly because if you pick a bad time, almost ANYONE is capable of severe LB’s.. and the middle of a sleepless night after a surprise visit from the in-laws would pretty much DEFINE a really BAD time.

I think that you should not dwell too strongly on what she said but you should focus on building strong agreement between the two of you on what you should do to address the issue of your son. Stating how you felt about working on the marriage and your son’s issues was important but the WAY in which you said it sounded more like a decision rather than an opinion. It might have come across as your “final word” as opposed to your position and you’re willing to negotiate. Because, my friend, you are going to need to negotiate this issue with your wife. If you allow this to remain as it is, I predict that she will withdraw herself from the marriage building/restoration project fully and focus on your son. In addition, she will probably resent you for “not caring enough” to jump on the band wagon with her. It’s likely to be a very silent protest and you’re not going to be breaking down that particular wall for a long time. DRAG THIS ISSUE OUT onto the NEGOTIATION table and work to find a solution that you both can be mutually enthusiastic about. That means you are going to have to be willing to do what she needs you to do about this issue to allow her be enthusiastic. First and foremost, dedicate yourself to working TOGETHER, as a team, with her on this issue.

I’m going to give you some brainstormed ideas to take with you:


- You focus on son’s issues for the next X weeks and then resume your marriage building with renewed focus.
- You focus primarily on working on son’s issues and allow her the time/energy to work on her areas of the marriage. (With lots of communication about what you’re doing)
- She focuses primarily on working on son’s issues and allow you the time/energy to work on your areas of the marriage (with lots of communication about what she’s doing)
- You continue to work on the marriage and address your son’s issues for X number of weeks. If after X number of weeks your son is not making progress or seems to be getting worse, you agree to delay working on the marriage and focus solely on him until he is in a program and starts make progress.



Those are just some examples of ‘in the middle’ type of solutions you can propose during a brainstorming session. Some of them you might reject out of hand but, often, just suggesting something – even if it’s outlandish – can spark some new ideas and get you on the track to finding something that you can mutually agree upon.

Build agreement. Build agreement. Build agreement.

Got it?

Oh, and *hugs* for you and your precious son. I’m sure he’s in good hands with you and your wife. Take care of the problem, but try not to worry TOO much. Ok?

Mys

Hey Mys & Others,

As I am unsure if I should go through with my EN list for the MC session tomorrow AM or not based upon my previous post, I thought I would take a stab at improving it based upon Mys comments.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It’s true that physical affection is a high need for me. I would be much happier with more physical affection and sex. However I don’t feel that is all there is to building this relationship. There are other things I am looking for in addition to affection and sex.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I like this response the best. Thanks Mys. I am drilling it into my head right now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> In fact, I think you need to be a bit more assertive about this need. Your wife needs to understand that the marriage will not be ‘restored’ until you are having mutually satisfactory relations. If her idea of a sustainable marriage does NOT include regular, frequent SF, it doesn’t sound like that will be a sustainable marriage for you. You need to be RADICALLY HONEST about that point. If your future marriage does not include the ability to negotiate your sexual/intimate life, then your future marriage is in jeopardy. The more you try to ‘sneak this in’ after dealing with everything else – all the while pretending it’s not that big of a deal, the more damage you are doing to your future marriage. This is your opportunity to put your cards on the table, so lay them all down.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hear what you are saying, but I have trouble getting over other things I have been told, such as lay off the SF for a while because you are not getting anywhere. By continually requesting or trying to discuss SF with my W I push her It’s true that physical affection is a high need for me. I would be much happier with more physical affection and sex. However I don’t feel that is all there is to building this relationship. There are other things I am looking for in addition to affection and sex.further away. These are the reasons it is hard for me to talk about this subject with my W. She paints a poor picture of me to anyone about my wanting SF. In fact, my hand is even shaking as I type, just considering this unavoidable confrontation and the inevitable set back my stating this will cause. However, I do know that sometime I will have to face this confrontation and live with the results. I just hope it is not too soon. I have tried really hard for a couple of months to meet what I think are my W's ENs, but I can't help but feel she will now call my efforts a sham just to get her to participate in SF. This is going to make me feel so awful, so defeated in my over all efforts for a better M.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Now then, about the rest of your list, once again, I’d like to encourage you to put some rank order to your list. It seems a little long to me but then again, that might be because of the additional comments you made describing your W’s anticipated reactions. I’d be a little concerned that you make sure you frame that this is just a comprehensive list and you aren’t expecting everything on the list tomorrow.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Understood. Basically, I was going to produce the list without my anticipated comments and this is what we would go over. By putting down the things I have heard, as my W's response to certain things up to now, I was just looking to hone my particular responses during the session. It is a great point to state that I am obviously not expecting these things to be perfect over night.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It is important that you not frame what you are asking for as “small things” because they might not BE small things to her. Substitute “specific” instead of “small” : “They are specific things that would go a long way towards me feeling appreciated.”
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Great point!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I also think that this issue is eroding trust between you. You SAY it’s not that important because you try to deny how much you desire SF. But your ACTIONS are different. If you think about it, that is partially what your W is always saying. You ACT as though SF is important. Well, yeah, that’s because it IS important to you. Stop getting defensive over this need and trying to justify it. Be upfront and TELL your wife that your vision of a great marriage includes regular, frequent SF. Let her know that NOW. If that is not going to work for her in the long term, then she needs to be aware that you are not going to be happy in this marriage. You’re not asking her to change this tomorrow or next week, but as you work towards a loving marriage this is absolutely part of what you are seeking for your sustainable, future marriage.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, I understand what you are saying and I have tried to say things like "SF is something I need for me to be happy in a M." She ALWAYS takes this as a threat that I am saying I am going to leave. She has dealt with this in one of two ways in the past. She percieves this as a threat or ultimatum from me and then says, "So you are saying you do not want to be married to me any more. Fine, S and I will move out tomorrow." or she says, "Go." There is no inbetween and this is what makes me nervous about being radically honest. My radical honesty tends to get turned around to not be what I am saying. It is not a threat, it is how I feel. My W is the type of person, when confronted with someone drawing a line in the sand, she imediately raises her defenses and jumps into battle with an "I can loose everything attitude and it will not matter, as long as I know I am right!" How do you properly communicate to her so that she does not do this type of thing? This is what scares me. Reason does tend to go out the window on this subject. I am pretty sure that if I come across as drawing a line in the sand, I will loose my family. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

So here goes my list: in order of importance to me.

1) Physical Intimacy: This is the main way I feel close or connected to someone. It is the ultimate form of my partner trusting me, through them being open and "letting themselves be open" with me. Being physically intimate is allowing one's self to be vulnerable to another. This vulnerability and trust is something I find extremely attractive and cherish. I would never want to do anything to make my partner not feel comfortable with this vulnerability. Ways that I like physical intimacy: sometimes I like to just make out; other times I would just like to cuddle; some of the time I would like sexual intercourse (desired frequency for me would be 1 - 2 times per week).

[Note: I got rid of OS because my W and I have not ventured into this. I do feel it will make her feel further uncomfortable with this topic. She also has an issue with feeling that whatever she does for me is not enough or not good enough. I am concerned that by adding OS at this time, she will feel like it is something hanging over her head that will remind her that she is not fullfilling one of my "catagories" and therefore, what she IS doing is once again not good enough.]

[W = <Crossing her arms and immediately adding another brick to her wall> "I knew it! It comes down to this! I knew this was the reason for all of this! Everything would be OK for you if we just had sex every night!"]

[EL = "It’s true that physical affection is a high need for me. I would be much happier with more physical affection and sex. However I don’t feel that is all there is to building this relationship. There are other things I am looking for in addition to affection and sex."]

2) Affection: Affection is an important emotional need for me and makes me feel like that person is really in love with me. If a person is affectionate towards me, I definitely feel closer to them. Ways I like affection shown to me include: seeing a person's face lite up when I walk into the room; terms of endearment (things like "you mean a lot to me," or "you make me so happy"); a simple touch that shows that person was thinking of me (a hand on my leg, the grabbing of an arm or hand, a hug from behind, an unannounced or unexpected kiss); taking a moment and initiating cuddling.

[W = "I do these things!"]

[EL = "Great. I do appreciate your efforts to show me affection. Is it possible for you to increase the amount of times you are affectionate towards me?] My only issue with this response is that my W shows me affection in ways that she feels are big, but to me are barely a blip on the radar. So asking her to do more of the same, makes me worry that it will just be "more of the same."

3) Honesty & Trust: Honesty is huge for me. I have extreme difficulty feeling love towards someone if I feel they are dishonest with me. One of the things I cannot stand the most is if a person is dishonest with me because they are trying to "help" me or are concerned for how I may react. I am deeply in love with someone if I feel I can trust them. I do not think I know how to "completely" trust someone, and am trying to learn this. Based upon what I thought was trust in the past, I really feel in love with someone when I trust them and feel they trust me.

[W = "I completely trust you! I have told you this many times. I do not care if you go out with friends. It does not bother me if you work late evenings. You are the one with the trust problem."]

[EL = I agree with you that I find it difficult to trust women in general at times. I reckognize this and God willing, with your patients I will over come my personal issues. You have mentioned that you do not trust me emotionally. I very much desire to re-earn your emotional trust again. I need your help in helping me reckognize things that I am doing that either gain a small amount of your emotional trust or loose a small amount of your emotional trust. Any information you are willing to provide me on this subject is huge to me no matter how small you may feel your information may be.]

4) Admiration: I feel more in love with someone when I receive their admiration for the things I do. It really makes me feel loved if I receive the admiration for something I did specifically for them. It also makes me feel more in love if I recieve admiration for the things I do that may not be specificly towards one person, but may be for the greater good of the entire family.

Thinking about it, it is not as much admiration as it is appreciation. When I do not feel as though the things I do are appreciated, I do not feel as in "love" with someone.

Things that show me appreciation: mostly the little things, concern about my day, positive comments relating to things I am doing, a smile or a wink that shows their happiness for my effort. These types of actions show me that I was thought about.

[W = "Well, I feel like I do tell you when you do a good job. I think I do show you that you are admired. I think you do not appreciate the things I do."]

{EL = "I think you do make an effort to tell me at times that you appreciate some things that I do, however, it is not in a way that I really recognize that this is what you are doing. This is why I have listed specific things that would better show me this appreciation. They are specific things and would go a long way towards me feeling appreciated. I also feel that I try to show you appreciaton, but suspect, I am doing the same thing by showing you appreciation in a way that I would like to be appreciated, but it is not necessarily a way that you feel is best to show you appreciation. If you are willing to list out ways that I could do things better to make you feel more appreciated, I would be happy to give them a try."}

5) Feeling Needed: I am not talking about wanting a needy spouse. Basically, the feeling of being needed once in a while gives me a feeling of being irreplacable. It makes me feel special to a person and with this I gain a further feeling of love for this person. The ways I like to feel like I am needed are: through verbal phrases such as "I couldn't have done X without you;" or "I need your help" for example.

[W = "This is not who I am. You know this is not who I am. I am not a needy person. You want a woman who is hanging on you and is afraid to do anything without you."]

[EL = "Honey, you are a very independent woman and this is one of the things I find very attractive about you. However, it would also feel very nice to me if once in a while you let down your gruff exterior and asked for my help once in a while. Its great that you are a confident person, but sometimes I get the feeling you are so confident that your life would be the same with or without me in it."]

6) Kindness/Politeness: I am attracted to someone who treats me with kindness and care for my feelings. I love the feeling of being treated like my feelings and needs are important. I absolutely cannot stand being told that my feelings or needs are not important or realistic. I do not like feeling as though I am being judged for what I like or want.

[W = "This is how I feel! You do this to me! You make me feel like my feelings are not important!"]

[EL = "I am aware that I used to treat you like this. I am very sorry. I did not realize I was acting this way. However, I also feel this way and need to feel like my feelings and needs are not only OK, but important to you because they are MY needs."]

7) Happy & Positive Spouse: I feel more in love with a person who is more positive than negative about things in life. If my partner is unhappy (for whatever reason) it really brings me down. If my partner is generally happy and shows consistent happiness through actions, I feel like I am on top of the World, because the person I am in love with is happy.

[W = "I am happy! I do not go around jumping for joy. I do not understand what you want from me. I am not this emotional person!"]

[EL = "I understand what you are saying and have recently learned that I fail to recognize when you are happy and when you are not. Would you be open to helping me better understand when you are happy and when you are not? I feel my interpretation of when you are happy is flawed in some way that I do not understand."]

8) Family Oriented: I really feel in love when my partner is a great parent. I really look up to my partner when I see examples of this.

[W = "I am a good mother!"]

[EL = "You are right. You are a good mother. You are meeting this emotional need of mine, quite well."]

So here is my shot at the list again. Remember, I am only going to provide the list, not the comments to the MC and my W. Let me know if you think it still diserves a little more tweaking. Thanks for all the help you guys, I really am thankful!

Take Care,

EL

Hey Mys,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It might be worthwhile to look into finding a competent child psychologist to talk to your son. However, I strongly discourage you from bringing your son with you to your MC sessions or involving him in any way. Your marriage issues are between the two of you and completely independent from your parental relationship. Do not involve him in those sessions. You do need to find a way to work TOGETHER to raise and parent your son which is part of your marriage, but I think that involving him directly is a very bad idea and could cause further problems down the road. Keep the two issues separate.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What I was thinking is that the MC we are seeing now is also a family counselor. I thought that maybe we could take our son and have a few specific sessions that just deal on him. I never intended on bringing him into a session that my W and I are working on our M. My W also thought this may be a good idea.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, both of you stated your positions on the matter but I don’t see anywhere where you stopped to build agreement. She’s not happy with your answer. You can’t dictate to her what issues she will work on. She can’t dictate to you which issues you will work on. You both need to come to some AGREEMENT on what you’re doing so you can focus your efforts. Where is the negotiation and agreement phase on this issue?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right. I will attempt to build agreement when I get home tonight.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You know, it was probably bad timing for the whole discussion. It was the middle of the night, both of you had been awakened. She hadn’t been sleeping – and was probably a wee bit cranky (who wouldn’t be). Discretion is often the better part of valor. Don’t have these discussions when the deck is stacked against you. If you all ready know your wife is cranky, upset, tired, etc. that is not a good time to discuss matters. Let it wait until morning and calmer, more reasoned minds prevail.

I’m guessing that about 60% of what happened was because you were both awake in the middle of the night and not really in the best frame of mind to be having the discussion.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right. It just hurts. I am trying very hard to not LB or DJ when I speak to my W and she just let go last night. I was hurting from it, thats all.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, it’s a good thought. If I were you, I’d offer my wife a choice. ”Honey, I know we were supposed to go over my list of needs this session but it seems as though we have a more important topic to discuss. I’m willing to delay sharing my list if you want to discuss how we can come to some agreement about what to do about working on this issue with <our son>. I know I’ve all ready said this, but I really feel strongly that we should CONTINUE to work on building our marriage at the same time we focus on <our dear son>. I know you feel differently. I think that whatever we decide to do, we need to decide to do it jointly for it to have the best benefits. Maybe our MC can help us today to figure out what is the wisest course of action so that we both can feel happy can confident about what we’re doing. What are your thoughts on that? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is good.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think that you should not dwell too strongly on what she said but you should focus on building strong agreement between the two of you on what you should do to address the issue of your son. Stating how you felt about working on the marriage and your son’s issues was important but the WAY in which you said it sounded more like a decision rather than an opinion. It might have come across as your “final word” as opposed to your position and you’re willing to negotiate. Because, my friend, you are going to need to negotiate this issue with your wife. If you allow this to remain as it is, I predict that she will withdraw herself from the marriage building/restoration project fully and focus on your son. In addition, she will probably resent you for “not caring enough” to jump on the band wagon with her. It’s likely to be a very silent protest and you’re not going to be breaking down that particular wall for a long time. DRAG THIS ISSUE OUT onto the NEGOTIATION table and work to find a solution that you both can be mutually enthusiastic about. That means you are going to have to be willing to do what she needs you to do about this issue to allow her be enthusiastic. First and foremost, dedicate yourself to working TOGETHER, as a team, with her on this issue.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, you are right here. My W has said that at times she has felt that I was jealous of our S. I certainly do not want to come across as competing with my S for attention from my W.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> - You continue to work on the marriage and address your son’s issues for X number of weeks. If after X number of weeks your son is not making progress or seems to be getting worse, you agree to delay working on the marriage and focus solely on him until he is in a program and starts make progress.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I like this one the best.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Build agreement. Build agreement. Build agreement.

Got it?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Got it!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Oh, and *hugs* for you and your precious son. I’m sure he’s in good hands with you and your wife. Take care of the problem, but try not to worry TOO much. Ok?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for the very kind words. I can't help but worry about our S. We have never been parents before and our S is our life.

Take Care,

EL

Hi EL. Sorry for your rough weekend. I think MYS and everyone are handling this well. I jsut saw one thing (in my drive by posting today) that raised an eyebrow...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 5) Feeling Needed: I am not talking about wanting a needy spouse. Basically, the feeling of being needed once in a while gives me a feeling of being irreplacable. It makes me feel special to a person and with this I gain a further feeling of love for this person. The ways I like to feel like I am needed are: through verbal phrases such as "I couldn't have done X without you;" or "I need your help" for example.

[W = "This is not who I am. You know this is not who I am. I am not a needy person. You want a woman who is hanging on you and is afraid to do anything without you."]

[EL = "Honey, you are a very independent woman and this is one of the things I find very attractive about you. However, it would also feel very nice to me if once in a while you let down your gruff exterior and asked for my help once in a while. Its great that you are a confident person, but sometimes I get the feeling you are so confident that your life would be the same with or without me in it."]
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think that the way you respond here is dangerous. I would take the words "gruff exterior" out of your vocabulary. It isn't a kind description for most women and would put your wife on the defensive.

I would instead focus on how you two together are a team. That you want to be able to contribute to lightening your load because it helps you feel like a teammate and you feel close to her when you can do this for her. Affirm that she soemtimes doesn't want or need help, but that it would make you feel good to be asked to help sometimes so that you can share things with her.

I wouldn't include any words like "stubborn, too independent, gruff exterior, overly confident, etc." Those words all place a value judgement on who she is. I would, instead, focus on sharing tasks as a team and how you feel included and valued when you can contribute.

Does that make sense?

Hang in there...

And about your son... I think that kids do say things like that in genereal. I wouldn't be suprised if most parent's here could give you five stories off the top of their heads about kids saying troublesome or worrisome things. Truth is - kids are sweet and innocent, but they also know what's up and have destructive and troubling tendencies. I would wait it out for a while. Make sure that when your kid says those things that you give him a chance to talk about his feelings..

i.e. "I want to <insert desire for aggressive act>" EL says *asked inquiringly - w/out judgement* "Why would you want to do that?

ELjr says "oh we were learning about fire today and I think it is interesting..."

EL says "oh - well fire is pretty interesting. But it is also dangerous. We need to be careful with it because we would be very sad if all of our things got wrecked in a fire. Instead, we can learn about fire with adults around by lighting a candle, or building a fire in the fire place. Remember - we only do this with the help of adults because fire is hard to control...

OR....

ELjr says "well I want to burn things up because it's all dumb"

EL says "wow, jr, it sounds like you are having a hard time with something. Is there anything you want to talk about? It's okay to be upset or angery, but it is best when we talk about those things. It sometimes feels good to share your feelings with someone, and then you can maybe work to make things better. So do want to share with me how you are feeling about <insert likely subject like school to get the ball rolling>"

Just my .02 I don't think it is time to freak out. But it is time for you and Mrs. EL to present a united front of love and understanding towards your son by allowing him the safety and freedom to talk about things with you (hey - it's great that he's saying these things to you and hasn't moved to just thinking on them, dwelling, and then maybe acting - keep those lines of communication open!)

*hug*
lfc

Extremely Lost

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I hear what you are saying, but I have trouble getting over other things I have been told, such as lay off the SF for a while because you are not getting anywhere. By continually requesting or trying to discuss SF with my W I push her </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There’s a difference between bringing up SF as your top EN when you are requested to do so by your MC as part of a list of your EN’s and just ‘bringing it up’ in the bedroom. This is the time when you NEED to be bringing it up.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> These are the reasons it is hard for me to talk about this subject with my W. She paints a poor picture of me to anyone about my wanting SF. In fact, my hand is even shaking as I type, just considering this unavoidable confrontation and the inevitable set back my stating this will cause. However, I do know that sometime I will have to face this confrontation and live with the results. I just hope it is not too soon. I have tried really hard for a couple of months to meet what I think are my W's ENs, but I can't help but feel she will now call my efforts a sham just to get her to participate in SF. This is going to make me feel so awful, so defeated in my over all efforts for a better M. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know it’s hard. But, it really needs to be done. Look at it this way, EL, if you wait until the end of the process to bring it up, your wife will REALLY feel as though you went through all of this with a “Hidden” goal in mind – to get SF. You need to be HONEST with your wife. You are asking to improve your intimate life. I think the longer you go without asserting this goal, the harder it is going to make the confrontation when you finally do. She’s going to accuse you of trying to “butter her up” to the idea of getting SF. The longer you wait, the more your actions are going to imply this. Right now, you have a golden opportunity to say “Well, you asked me not to discuss it, however, no list of “how I feel loved” would be complete without that part so I felt compelled to add it.”

Besides, wasn't one of your top needs Honesty and Openness? Didn't you say that being "protected" from honesty was a huge LB to you? Mmmm? Time to practice what you preach, my friend.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Understood. Basically, I was going to produce the list without my anticipated comments and this is what we would go over. By putting down the things I have heard, as my W's response to certain things up to now, I was just looking to hone my particular responses during the session. It is a great point to state that I am obviously not expecting these things to be perfect over night. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think it’s VERY important that you state that these are your needs and your list of ‘ultimate’ goals to incorporate into your marriage. You are not expecting this list to be accomplished tomorrow or next week.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> OK, I understand what you are saying and I have tried to say things like "SF is something I need for me to be happy in a M." She ALWAYS takes this as a threat that I am saying I am going to leave. She has dealt with this in one of two ways in the past. She percieves this as a threat or ultimatum from me and then says, "So you are saying you do not want to be married to me any more. Fine, S and I will move out tomorrow." or she says, "Go." There is no inbetween and this is what makes me nervous about being radically honest. My radical honesty tends to get turned around to not be what I am saying. It is not a threat, it is how I feel. My W is the type of person, when confronted with someone drawing a line in the sand, she imediately raises her defenses and jumps into battle with an "I can loose everything attitude and it will not matter, as long as I know I am right!" How do you properly communicate to her so that she does not do this type of thing? This is what scares me. Reason does tend to go out the window on this subject. I am pretty sure that if I come across as drawing a line in the sand, I will loose my family. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand your reluctance to face this sort of confrontation. I think it’s time to consider your response. I consider there to be 3 possible outcomes or attitudes at the moment.

- SF isn’t possible now but it will be in the future.
- SF isn’t possible now but it MIGHT be in the future (it’s uncertain and will have to wait to see)
- SF isn’t possible now and it is 100% not possible in the future.

They way you describe your wife’s response is what I would consider to be Grandstanding behavior. The way I usually deal with it is very calmly and ‘head on – calling the person on their behavior.’ I don’t know what you typically do, but my guess is you immediately drop into a soothing, comforting “oh no, don’t do that…” role.

So, the way *I* would respond is by saying ”Well, no, I didn’t say that I don’t want to be married to you anymore. I don’t think we’re at the point yet where we need to split up or divorce, do you? I do think it’s important to know if what you’re saying is that you are 100% certain that we can never fix this marriage up so that we can both be happy – and that includes me being happy so it includes working on physical intimacy sometime in the future. If that is what you are saying then maybe it is time to discuss options. Otherwise, I’m willing to keep working on it. What do you think?”

It’s likely that she’s going to keep on reinforcing her message that you’re “forcing” her to make a decision. But, I think it’s very important that you calmly keep to your message that YOU think the marriage is fixable and are committed to making a great marriage for both of you. Extremely Lost, you keep asking us whether or not we think your wife will ever come around. Why not ask your wife that same question? If she were to say “There is 100% no possibility that I would ever consent to regular, frequent SF with you.” wouldn’t you want to consider your future more closely? Wouldn’t that be a good time to re-examine your options?

I say, be Radically Honest and ask her that question. “It sounds to me that you are saying that you are 100% positive that we will never have regular, frequent sex. Now, if that is what you’re saying then maybe we should discuss options. If what you’re saying is that you’re not ready RIGHT NOW for that, and you AREN’T SURE if you’ll ever be ready, then I’m willing to work on the marriage and see where we end up. If when we get farther along, you can say that you’re 100% sure it will never happen, then I’m willing to believe you. But, if we’re not there yet, then I’d like to continue working on the marriage.”

I know that will be hard for you to hear, but wouldn’t you rather know that information NOW than 2 years from now? Especially if it turns out that she knew all along that there was 100% no chance of ever getting there? If she’s unsure, I’d say give it a chance. But if she’s 100% positive, then I say take the woman at her word and plan accordingly. Either you’ll be able to accept a celibate marriage and take SF off the negotiation table, or you need to find other arrangements.

I’d also like to stress that You should have this conversation in MC and expect your MC to help you negotiate around her grandstanding behavior.

Now, for a few more tweaks….

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> [Note: I got rid of OS because my W and I have not ventured into this. I do feel it will make her feel further uncomfortable with this topic. She also has an issue with feeling that whatever she does for me is not enough or not good enough. I am concerned that by adding OS at this time, she will feel like it is something hanging over her head that will remind her that she is not fullfilling one of my "catagories" and therefore, what she IS doing is once again not good enough.] </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Fair enough.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> [EL = "Great. I do appreciate your efforts to show me affection. Is it possible for you to increase the amount of times you are affectionate towards me?] My only issue with this response is that my W shows me affection in ways that she feels are big, but to me are barely a blip on the radar. So asking her to do more of the same, makes me worry that it will just be "more of the same." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I’m confused. Ok, she says she does the things on your list, you say she doesn’t. Then ask for more of something specific. Well, can you do more of the .. leg touching thing..<whatever>. Be specific when you ask for more… add items. Just don’t argue with her when she says she does it. Let that go and ask for more of those SPECIFIC things.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Things that show me appreciation: mostly the little things, concern about my day, positive comments relating to things I am doing, a smile or a wink that shows their happiness for my effort. These types of actions show me that I was thought about. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Take the phrase “Mostly little things” out of that and you’ll be fine.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 5) Feeling Needed: I am not talking about wanting a needy spouse. Basically, the feeling of being needed once in a while gives me a feeling of being irreplacable. It makes me feel special to a person and with this I gain a further feeling of love for this person. The ways I like to feel like I am needed are: through verbal phrases such as "I couldn't have done X without you;" or "I need your help" for example.

[W = "This is not who I am. You know this is not who I am. I am not a needy person. You want a woman who is hanging on you and is afraid to do anything without you."]

[EL = "Honey, you are a very independent woman and this is one of the things I find very attractive about you. However, it would also feel very nice to me if once in a while you let down your gruff exterior and asked for my help once in a while. Its great that you are a confident person, but sometimes I get the feeling you are so confident that your life would be the same with or without me in it."] </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is still REALLY nebulous. It comes across as a back handed compliment. In other words, I don’t know how I would take “you are so confident that your life would be the same with or without me in it.” I wouldn’t know how to change my actions based on that statement or, more accurately, it wouldn’t bring to mind and POSITIVE changes I could make to my life based on that sentence. I hate to say this, but this really does come across as you want her to be kind of clingy. I hear you saying that is NOT what you want but then what you describe seems to indicate that. I can’t tell enough of what you’re saying to help you rewrite it, either. *sighs*

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> [EL = "I understand what you are saying and have recently learned that I fail to recognize when you are happy and when you are not. Would you be open to helping me better understand when you are happy and when you are not? I feel my interpretation of when you are happy is flawed in some way that I do not understand."] </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">*chuckles* Thanks for my laugh of the day. I told you that was MY boundary. As I said, maybe she’d be willing to do that. I just wouldn’t be (but then I’m kind of difficult anyway. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What I was thinking is that the MC we are seeing now is also a family counselor. I thought that maybe we could take our son and have a few specific sessions that just deal on him. I never intended on bringing him into a session that my W and I are working on our M. My W also thought this may be a good idea. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah, ok, that makes sense. I didn’t realize she was a family counselor too. I’d ask her what she thinks.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You are right. I will attempt to build agreement when I get home tonight. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I strongly suggest you wait for your MC session. This is a touchy issue.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You are right. It just hurts. I am trying very hard to not LB or DJ when I speak to my W and she just let go last night. I was hurting from it, thats all. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know, it is rough. *hugs*

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Again, you are right here. My W has said that at times she has felt that I was jealous of our S. I certainly do not want to come across as competing with my S for attention from my W. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, you don’t. And, more important than that, this is a very important issue and it’s vital that you two build some agreement and do this as a team. EL, this is a huge chance for you to build teamwork and trust with your W. If you allow this to remain as it is, I think you need to realistically expect your W to make her own choices AWAY from yours in order to resolve her internal priorities.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I like this one the best. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Uh huh. Of course you do. But, I put several of them out there for you for a reason. I think it is very important for you to present all those options as well as any others you can think of during the session and not just present the one that you like. Remember, you’re building agreement which involves putting all the iterations and options out there. I find the best thing to do is just to sit down and list all the possibilities – no matter how outlandish they are – and THEN eliminate options. The more you try to pre-emptively narrow options by not presenting ones you ‘don’t like as much’ the more you sabotage the true power of REAL negotiation.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Thanks for the very kind words. I can't help but worry about our S. We have never been parents before and our S is our life. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know *hugs*.

Mys

LFC -

Thanks for chimming in. I hope all is good with you today. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I would instead focus on how you two together are a team. That you want to be able to contribute to lightening your load because it helps you feel like a teammate and you feel close to her when you can do this for her. Affirm that she soemtimes doesn't want or need help, but that it would make you feel good to be asked to help sometimes so that you can share things with her.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right. I suppose, I should probably just take this one out. Between you and Mys, I believe this one can only get me in trouble.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And about your son... I think that kids do say things like that in genereal. I wouldn't be suprised if most parent's here could give you five stories off the top of their heads about kids saying troublesome or worrisome things. Truth is - kids are sweet and innocent, but they also know what's up and have destructive and troubling tendencies. I would wait it out for a while. Make sure that when your kid says those things that you give him a chance to talk about his feelings..
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am hoping you are right. We think he is doing this just for attention. Today a service man came to the house and my W could not give him undivided attention. When this happened, our S had "bad" thoughts and did not like the repair man. Sounds like jealousy to me. This was the only time he had these "thoughts" today.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Just my .02 I don't think it is time to freak out. But it is time for you and Mrs. EL to present a united front of love and understanding towards your son by allowing him the safety and freedom to talk about things with you (hey - it's great that he's saying these things to you and hasn't moved to just thinking on them, dwelling, and then maybe acting - keep those lines of communication open!)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Absolutely. Thanks for the .02 cents. It was worth atleast .05 cents to me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Best Wishes,

EL

Mys -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> There’s a difference between bringing up SF as your top EN when you are requested to do so by your MC as part of a list of your EN’s and just ‘bringing it up’ in the bedroom. This is the time when you NEED to be bringing it up.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know, and I see this. I am just afraid that whether or not my bringing this up is justified or not is irrelevant to my W and her reactions will be the same no matter what.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I know it’s hard. But, it really needs to be done. Look at it this way, EL, if you wait until the end of the process to bring it up, your wife will REALLY feel as though you went through all of this with a “Hidden” goal in mind – to get SF. You need to be HONEST with your wife. You are asking to improve your intimate life. I think the longer you go without asserting this goal, the harder it is going to make the confrontation when you finally do. She’s going to accuse you of trying to “butter her up” to the idea of getting SF. The longer you wait, the more your actions are going to imply this. Right now, you have a golden opportunity to say “Well, you asked me not to discuss it, however, no list of “how I feel loved” would be complete without that part so I felt compelled to add it.”
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right. I'll stand strong. You know, I can think extremely well on my feet when I am dealing with very important customers at work, yet, when it comes to my W on this particular subject, I fall apart. I can't think coherently. I do not make sense. I cannot get the words I want out. I will study this and try tomorrow.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Besides, wasn't one of your top needs Honesty and Openness? Didn't you say that being "protected" from honesty was a huge LB to you? Mmmm? Time to practice what you preach, my friend.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right. Being honest is key.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think it’s VERY important that you state that these are your needs and your list of ‘ultimate’ goals to incorporate into your marriage. You are not expecting this list to be accomplished tomorrow or next week.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think I need to start off by saying "I was asked to come up with a list of the ways I measure or feel loved. In thinking about what this means, I realized I feel loved if my emotional needs are met, plane and simple. Therefore, I came up with a list of my most important emotional needs in their order of importance for me. This is a list of my personal needs and what I feel are ultimate goals to incorporate into our marriage."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I understand your reluctance to face this sort of confrontation. I think it’s time to consider your response. I consider there to be 3 possible outcomes or attitudes at the moment.

- SF isn’t possible now but it will be in the future.
- SF isn’t possible now but it MIGHT be in the future (it’s uncertain and will have to wait to see)
- SF isn’t possible now and it is 100% not possible in the future.

They way you describe your wife’s response is what I would consider to be Grandstanding behavior. The way I usually deal with it is very calmly and ‘head on – calling the person on their behavior.’ I don’t know what you typically do, but my guess is you immediately drop into a soothing, comforting “oh no, don’t do that…” role.

So, the way *I* would respond is by saying ”Well, no, I didn’t say that I don’t want to be married to you anymore. I don’t think we’re at the point yet where we need to split up or divorce, do you? I do think it’s important to know if what you’re saying is that you are 100% certain that we can never fix this marriage up so that we can both be happy – and that includes me being happy so it includes working on physical intimacy sometime in the future. If that is what you are saying then maybe it is time to discuss options. Otherwise, I’m willing to keep working on it. What do you think?”

It’s likely that she’s going to keep on reinforcing her message that you’re “forcing” her to make a decision. But, I think it’s very important that you calmly keep to your message that YOU think the marriage is fixable and are committed to making a great marriage for both of you. Extremely Lost, you keep asking us whether or not we think your wife will ever come around. Why not ask your wife that same question? If she were to say “There is 100% no possibility that I would ever consent to regular, frequent SF with you.” wouldn’t you want to consider your future more closely? Wouldn’t that be a good time to re-examine your options?

I say, be Radically Honest and ask her that question. “It sounds to me that you are saying that you are 100% positive that we will never have regular, frequent sex. Now, if that is what you’re saying then maybe we should discuss options. If what you’re saying is that you’re not ready RIGHT NOW for that, and you AREN’T SURE if you’ll ever be ready, then I’m willing to work on the marriage and see where we end up. If when we get farther along, you can say that you’re 100% sure it will never happen, then I’m willing to believe you. But, if we’re not there yet, then I’d like to continue working on the marriage.”

I know that will be hard for you to hear, but wouldn’t you rather know that information NOW than 2 years from now? Especially if it turns out that she knew all along that there was 100% no chance of ever getting there? If she’s unsure, I’d say give it a chance. But if she’s 100% positive, then I say take the woman at her word and plan accordingly. Either you’ll be able to accept a celibate marriage and take SF off the negotiation table, or you need to find other arrangements.

I’d also like to stress that You should have this conversation in MC and expect your MC to help you negotiate around her grandstanding behavior. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thank you, thank you, thank you. This is what I needed to read. You really are very good Myschae. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I am going to study this and perhaps print it out to just have on hand for me only tomorrow. Thanks for this support. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I’m confused. Ok, she says she does the things on your list, you say she doesn’t. Then ask for more of something specific. Well, can you do more of the .. leg touching thing..<whatever>. Be specific when you ask for more… add items. Just don’t argue with her when she says she does it. Let that go and ask for more of those SPECIFIC things.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Understand.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Take the phrase “Mostly little things” out of that and you’ll be fine.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This is still REALLY nebulous. It comes across as a back handed compliment. In other words, I don’t know how I would take “you are so confident that your life would be the same with or without me in it.” I wouldn’t know how to change my actions based on that statement or, more accurately, it wouldn’t bring to mind and POSITIVE changes I could make to my life based on that sentence. I hate to say this, but this really does come across as you want her to be kind of clingy. I hear you saying that is NOT what you want but then what you describe seems to indicate that. I can’t tell enough of what you’re saying to help you rewrite it, either. *sighs*
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can't get across what I am meaning and I feel it is just opening myself up for cliff diving tomorrow, so I am taking it out. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> *chuckles* Thanks for my laugh of the day. I told you that was MY boundary. As I said, maybe she’d be willing to do that. I just wouldn’t be (but then I’m kind of difficult anyway. ) </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Always happy to make you laugh, but you got me thinking and I do feel this way.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Ah, ok, that makes sense. I didn’t realize she was a family counselor too. I’d ask her what she thinks.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You are right. I will attempt to build agreement when I get home tonight.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I strongly suggest you wait for your MC session. This is a touchy issue.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, my W forwarded me an email, so I took advantage of knowing she was on line. I sent her an email explaining how I felt and that I understood how she felt and that I realized we did not reach an agreement last night. I mentioned how it was important to me that we reach an agreement and I offered the try both for two weeks and if this did not work, then work just on our S until the situation was taken care of. My W did not respond, but I called later and she said she got my email, but thought she would see me in a couple of hours and we could talk about it. She did not seem mad or angry with me. In fact, I even mentioned to her how she sounded more awake than I would expect since she did not get any sleep last night. She did mention that she thought we should talk to the MC tomorrow about our S, but she is getting more convinced that he is doing this just for attention. So I think we kind of reached an agreement on this already. You know, I think about when you (Mys) described to me about how my W was going to go in and out of withdrawl in the beginning of this process. I think I understand the differences now. In the beginning of our recovery (April), my W was in a pretty deep withdrawl from me. As I started to reduce LBs and DJs I think she kind of tentatively pulled out of withdrawl. Whe I would make a mistake early on, she would go back into withdrawl and stay there for a period of time. Now, when I make a mistake, she goes back into withdrawl, but the period of time she stays in withdrawl is smaller. She was nice on the phone. I think it may be helping us to get behind an issue and work on it together (especially such an emotionally charged issue like the well being of our only child).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> No, you don’t. And, more important than that, this is a very important issue and it’s vital that you two build some agreement and do this as a team. EL, this is a huge chance for you to build teamwork and trust with your W. If you allow this to remain as it is, I think you need to realistically expect your W to make her own choices AWAY from yours in order to resolve her internal priorities.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have taken some positive steps forward on this phone call we just had.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Uh huh. Of course you do. But, I put several of them out there for you for a reason. I think it is very important for you to present all those options as well as any others you can think of during the session and not just present the one that you like. Remember, you’re building agreement which involves putting all the iterations and options out there. I find the best thing to do is just to sit down and list all the possibilities – no matter how outlandish they are – and THEN eliminate options. The more you try to pre-emptively narrow options by not presenting ones you ‘don’t like as much’ the more you sabotage the true power of REAL negotiation.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand.

Thanks so much,

EL

It looks like Mys is on top of everything as usual, so I've just got one question:

Did you make an appointment to see a doctor about your snoring today?


Psst, Mys, I'm still using what I think of as "myschae lessons" in certain sticky situations. It's starting to get easier, especially since it keeps paying off. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Hello everyone,

Mineownself - Thanks for keeping me honest! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Today we had an MC session. We used the entire session to discuss our S and what we need to do. This was the first MC session, where we worked together as a team. There were no arguments or disagreements. We left the session without any discord between us. Our MC is not around next week, so our next appointment is in 2 weeks. I have to wait a while to have my needs list discussed. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Oh well, I guess I have waited for a long time already. Two weeks should not kill me. Anyway, I feel more comfortable now that we talked about our S today. I feel my W probably feels more relaxed to. Maybe this will not only help us to help our S, but also help my W to gain some level of acceptance of the MC. She is a very nice Woman. We found out she has over 30 years experience with dealing with children. I feel she was pretty helpful today.

Take Care,

EL

Hey guys,

Last night, I woke up to find my W not in bed. She had moved to the couch apparently. I know the couch is not comfortable for her, so I offered to take the couch while she went back to bed. Basically, she could not sleep because I was snoring. Obviously I do not realize I am doing this and do not think I have done this before my W. However, I am working on getting checked out as to why I am doing this and if there is anything that can be done.

The point of this background is because I spoke to my W today and said, "I do not want a M where we sleep in seperate rooms." She said, "I do not mind. It is only sleeping." This really bothered me and maybe gives me further insight into her mind frame regarding how she feels about our M. I believe a H & W share the bed. This is what I believe and want in my M. I told this to my W and she said, "OK." That was all she said. Do you guys think I am over reacting about her seeming not to really care about sharing a bed? Is this odd or not? Does her point about "its only sleeping" have merit? I said to her that I believed in sharing the bed and would hope in the future that we grow more towards cuddling again. I would like to be able to cuddle in the middle of the night. I told her that one of my favorite things in the entire World is to wakeup with her in my arms. I have not been able to do this in quite a while with her (probably 2.5 years).

Let me know if you think I am over the top here.

Thanks,

EL

I think you're just not seeing the situation and her concerns for how it looks to her.

Right now she has serious physical problems that are a major force in her life whether she likes it or not, and they drain a lot of her energy.

Plenty of high-quality sleep is absolutely critical to her if her body is going to have any chance to heal.

Compared to that, sleeping in the same bed is simply not going to seem like a big deal. I'm a snugglemuffin myself and I know exactly what you mean by wanting to sleep together and cuddle at night, but if I were in your wife's condition, it would sound like a very minor thing and I wouldn't understand why it's even relevant compared to the absolute necessity of getting plenty of high-quality undisturbed sleep.

I honestly don't think your wife meant anything remotely like it's not important at all or shouldn't be important to you. Every time you hear a statement from her that you don't like, it's going to make a lot more sense if you look at it again from the perspective of someone who is completely overwhelmed. Given everything else on her plate and how impossible it must feel to handle it all, saying that sleeping in the same bed doesn't seem like a big deal makes perfect sense to me.

First things first:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Let me know if you think I am over the top here. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ummm... maybe a little...

You are looking at *sleeping in the bed* from a what does this mean to our marriage standpoint.. which is all fine and good. But that likley takes a lower spot on the priority list to your wife to *actually getting sleep*


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The point of this background is because I spoke to my W today and said, "I do not want a M where we sleep in seperate rooms." She said, "I do not mind. It is only sleeping." This really bothered me and maybe gives me further insight into her mind frame regarding how she feels about our M. I believe a H & W share the bed. This is what I believe and want in my M. I told this to my W and she said, "OK."
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are making this too big, IMHO. I think she was being generous to simply say "ok". If I was her, I might interpret your "I don't want to be in a M where we sleep in seperate beds" as a way of asking your W to choose between *not*sleeping in the same bed with you and *getting*sleep in a different bed.

To make it about the marriage when she stated the issue is about her ability to sleep through your snoring is diminishing the value of her concern. It is, IMHO, communicating to her that you value the "rules of M" more than her health.

Now maybe I am jumping ahead and making DJs also - but i am doing this intentionally.

You assuming her desire to get sleep and the natural consequence, giving the snoring, of moving to another room as a *sign of her feeling about marriage*

She could jsut as easily be assuming that your focusing the conversation on the rules of marriage above her need for sleep as a *sign of your lack of care for her*.

both of these are unhealthy.

So my final meassage is... try not to take everything your wife does as a sign of her not being a *proper wife* or of her not thinking *proper things about Marriage*.

She just needs some sleep. So get your snoring taken care of...

respectfully
lfc