I'm with mys that it's jus too much of a logic leap to go from her response to your "joking threat" to she doesn't care about your marriage.

In that situation I would have given a similar answer. If I were married, would I consider my naked H crashing a gathering of neighbor ladies a threat to my marriage? Only in that it'd make me wonder if I want to be married to a nutjob. It wouldn't strike me as even the remotest threat in terms of it leading to some kind of infidelity.

As best I can guess, maybe you're missing a critical difference in early socialization of girls versus boys. At the age when the hormones are raging and it's all new and we're all trying to learn to cope with it, boys are likely to consider figuring out how to get to see a woman naked as a major problem to be solved. Girls quickly learn that for them the problem isn't getting to see a guy naked, it's getting the ones you don't want to see naked to keep their clothes on. (Unpleasant flashback to freshman dorm where various male dorks would ostentatiously strut around with their shirts off obviously fantasizing that this somehow made them more attractive. Bleah. It might have been attractive if they weren't such hopeless idiots.)

Of course we all grow up. Thank heavens. But if you jumped in the hottub naked while your wife and her friends are in there, your wife probably thinks that what would run through all their heads is "oh for heaven's sake, another one who can't figure out how to keep that thing put away", followed by sympathy for her for having married a lunatic. There's no possibility of anything leading to infidelity in this scenario. In that context her answer made perfect sense.

Good Morning,

OK, just for clarification, I did not say I would jump in the hot tub naked when the girls were in there. I said, "Make sure you call first because I might be in the tub naked." Big difference! However, I think we have beaten this up enough.

My Alias -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm not agreeing with your W's behavior when it comes to Quality Time but I can't help her because she's not here. You are and you are getting frustrated so I'm trying to make sure you aren't making mountains out of molehills, building up resentment to the point where you'll quit doing the good work you've been doing.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for this.

Myschae -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Thanks for asking.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No problem. I am in your corner and wishing you well! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Awww.. the poor little guy. And poor you, too. *chuckles* I’m sure it’s just a phase and he’ll grow out of it. Take heart and good notes – these are the ‘cute’ stories you get to embarrass him with when he brings his prom date over. *evil grin*
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah! A lot of people seem to have trouble keeping up with children's baby books (including my W and I), but somehow I am not going to run out of embarassing stories for my S when he gets older. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Now, the problem isn’t that you feel how you feel about other’s seeing her or you naked. The problem is that you ‘fill in’ all these conclusions and assign them to her as opinions when they are 1.) casting her in a very negative light and 2.) not explicitly stated as her opinions or thoughts. Assuming that you’re right about her opinions based on your internal logic and without asking her directly is a disrespectful judgment. It’s a love buster. Stop it.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You never get to decide how your spouse feels. Not ever. Not even ONCE. Your spouse can TELL you how she feels. But, you never get to say “THIS IS HOW YOU FEEL.” Not even if your spouse is having an affair. Because anytime you do that you are guilty of a disrespectful judgment. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I did not mean to imply that I got to decide how my W feels. I meant more of at what point does a person have enough of their spouse making them feel like they do not value your M as much as you might. Even if the offending spouse thinks they value the M very much, actions and comments made to their spouse may not directly support this in their spouse's eyes. No matter how much a spouse says, "I love you very much. You mean the World to me." It does not amount to much if they are hitting their spouse and saying these things. Now, I used an extreme example to make my point. Replace hitting with "negative actions that would cause or imply a lack of caring" and you get my M. So why is it that physical abuse is an ultimate item to be acceptable to make a judgement call, but negative actions are not necessarily accepted for forming an opinion? You see what I am asking here? Anyone can rationalize the negative actions of a spouse to make their spouse seem nicer or more noble than they really are. This is what causes people to stay in very bad relationships for lengths of time. It is human nature to not admit defeat and move on. Why not look at this a different way, I know that if I knew of an action that offends my W, I am totally prepared to try and change it to the best of my ability because I love her. Why is it wrong to expect anything less from your spouse?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yes! Now that the crisis with your son is managed, get that out there!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am going to try. I want to tell you and the others a little item that happened last night. My S and I went to the meeting that my W was in. A friend of mine (the guy neighbor whose wife was over in the tub the night before) came and sat next to me. At the end of the meeting he made an off the cuff comment about how his W came home drunk and had sex with him. This comment was made in front of me and my W. In fact, this guy thanked my W for getting his W in the mood! My W said, "Oh, really. No problem." As you can imagine with our situation, this made me feel even worse and I also felt anger. We got home and nothing was said until later in the evening. My W makes a comment, "I can't believe X said that about Y coming home and wanting sex." Feeling even more miserable because I wished my W would do this, I said, "I don't want to talk about it." I blew it off because of my dissapointment and I felt that I would not be able to be very constructive in this discussion. I felt anything I would say would make my situation much worse and that there was very little I could actually say to turn this into a positive. Couple this with what I was saying yesterday about my anger from this situation increasing, and I realized I was not in a good situation for a level headed discussion. As I have really been trying to make huge steps towards meeting my W's ENs, I feel more like I am taken advantage of because she does not seem interested in meeting my top EN.

Baba -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Hey here's an idea. Next time all *****get in the hot tub with thier wine and cigs, jump on in there with them. (maybe not naked however)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually Baba, they both asked repeatedly if I would get in with them. I do not know about anyone else, but I would feel uncomfortable if my W went to someone's house and got into a hot tub with a man and a woman. I do not feel this is proper. Out of some kind of feeling of respect for the Hs in our neighborhood, I have never gotten into our tub with any of their Ws unless they were in the tub.

I did go to the meeting last night as it was open to all. However, the other meetings throughout the year are open, but not if you know what I mean. Also, if I went, my W would feel as though I am checking up on her and do not trust her. I used to take our S to a set of swings when my W was at some of the meetings. These swings were right next to the club house where the meetings were going on. My W commented that she felt I was doing this to check up on her. You see, I am on pins/needles to be careful of what I do because it most likely will be mis-inturpreted as something its not. The real kicker is, even if I get the chance to explain that a certain thing I have done was not out of jealousy or control, it usually does not change her POV to be more favorable. So I loose out anyway.

MOS -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Of course we all grow up. Thank heavens. But if you jumped in the hottub naked while your wife and her friends are in there, your wife probably thinks that what would run through all their heads is "oh for heaven's sake, another one who can't figure out how to keep that thing put away", followed by sympathy for her for having married a lunatic. There's no possibility of anything leading to infidelity in this scenario. In that context her answer made perfect sense. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for the insight between men/women and their early stages of socialization. That was an interesting concept that I did not think aboout before. Regarding your example above, I was not saying that I was going to jump in naked. I was saying that I might be in the tub naked when she came home. Big difference here.

Thanks guys,

EL

I feel there is nothing wrong with you getting in the hot tub with them. Especially if they asked you. If you did join them, and have fun with them, it might possibly make your wife "hot" for you. Do you know why? Figure it out!

You might break your "rule" once and try it....

Or, ask the other husbands if they would mind if you did this. Invite the husbands if you want.

I can see if you are ALONE with a neighbor woman or something in the hot tub without your wife. But if your wife was in there, what is the big deal about joining them?

I have an observation:

1. The neighbor girls ask you to join them in the hot tub.

2. Your wife does not object to you joining them.

3. You have this rigid idea that it is BAD to join all of them.

It is no wonder your wife feels like you are a "killjoy" or "stuffy". Maybe if YOU COULD LET LOOSE and drink some wine and laugh and have fun with your wife and her friends, she would be naturally more attracted to you.

If you strive to be FUN and ATTRACTIVE and PERSONABLE, you maybe would open yourself up to some sex.

If you strive to be BORING, STRAIGHTFORWARD, UNSOCIABLE, and UNACCEPTING and RIGID, you may as well buy that MONKS ROBE since you won't be getting any sex very soon.

Tell me if I am wrong here. I am thinking a lot since I found out your wife and her friends actually ASKED you into the hot tub to join them.

(I had formerly assumed your wife was cutting you out of her activities on purpose and wanted to be alone with her friends....)

Would you describe yourself in any of these ways?

Stuffy
Traditional
Religious
Rule bound
Not fun
Boring
Rigid
Non emotional
Non passionate
Laid back
Mellow
Judgemental
Unaccepting
Jealous
Controlling
Unhappy
Sad
Depressed
Down
Blue
Unsmiling
Frowning
Rigid face
Unemotional
Undemonstrative
Unsocial
Prefers to be alone with family at home
TV watcher
Silent
Logical
Unwilling
Unhappy
Deprived
Sexually Deprived
Unsexy
Avoids things
Avoids people
Seeks rejection
No hobbies
No personality
Feeds of others
Needy
Lives by strict rules
Imposes rules on wife and family
Unexciting
Uncommunicative
Would make a good undertaker
Stoic
Thrifty
Frugal
Wants things a certain way
Responsible
Good worker
Hates to be late


If some of these things are true, then I can see why your wife is trying to break away from her boring life (and you) and bring some fun into it.

In fact, in order to have "fun" at all in her life, (instead of the often total hard work and drugery of a SAHM) she might have to leave you behind if you do not follow "willingly" with her into her "fun" things to do.

Are you willing to have fun with your wife or will you stand on the sidelines watching her and trying to impose your "rules" of life?

My RX for you is to have FUN this next weekend and next week with your wife. Look for no less than 5 oportunities to take advantage of that you would not normally do with your wife. Join her in 5 fun activities, things she has planned, or things you plan that are fun. Pretend that you enjoy socializing with neighbors and friends. Get a sitter for the kids if you have to or bring them along.

I see a real lack of fun in your life and your wife craves this. You can do fun things with her. You can find out what things are FUN to her and join her on that level. Or, she will have to do fun things on her own without you furthur separating you two. It is your own choice which way this goes.

Sorry for the many posts but I am seeing so much here now...Or I think I am!

The fact that your wife would be suspicious if you joined her in the regular neighborhood meetings and some other social events is clear to me now.

BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT VERY SOCIAL AND SHE KNOWS YOU WOULD NOT GO BECAUSE YOU REALLY WANTED TO BE THERE!

So she knows you are there for "another reason". And she can fill in the reason:

1. To watch over her
2. Because you do not trust her
3. Because you are forcing yourself to be with her even though you hate social events yourself and she knows this.

I bet you would prefer to socialize very rarely. And your wife knows this. So if you were to change and become really social, she would know IT WAS NOT REALLY YOU and she would get suspicious.

So it appears you cannot win, yet. If you go with her and become a social being that loves fun, she may be suspicious since this is so different for you.

But if you do not go with her and have fun with her and learn to socialize and learn to have fun with your wife, then your marriage and your sex life will suffer and maybe end because she will have to break away from YOU in order to have some light hearted fun occasionally.

So, there is a dillemma, that I am sure there is a good solution for. Is there any kind of socializing that YOU truly enjoy? I mean it would be sad if you NEVER truly wanted to have fun with your wife but you did it because you feel you MUST have fun.

(My husband would be happy if we rarely socialized (He loves to be with mainly, me) and I need more than that so I am going to start making those changes in our life, are you this way too? Do you rarely or never like to socialize with others?)

What do you, personally, like to do to have fun in YOUR life? Can you let loose and have FUN? How long has it been?

Love of FUN = Sexual attractiveness

baba is making a major point, which I know at least one other poster has made recently.

Quality time with your wife is important, and I don't think the two of you get enough undivided attention time, so I'm all in favor of negotiating for more. But negotiating for more will inherently include making that one-on-one time fun for your wife.

You're right about the difference in what you said about the hot tub. However, what I said about what your wife was probably thinking still applies. If at a time when she and her bunco friends normally sit in the hot tub, and you were in there naked, I could see them deciding to skip but expressing a lot of sympathy for your wife for having married a nutjob who also appears to be a control freak, since that would be a pretty blatant ploy on your part to interfere with a regular activity of your wife's. If they decided to just jump in with you, same still applies -- sympathy for your wife for having married a nutjob, but determination not to let the nutjob spoil her fun. No matter how you slice it, there's no danger of infidelity coming out of any of these scenarios.

About the thing last night, I'm honestly puzzled as to what you're angry about. It's clear you were very angry then and are still now, but I really can't figure out why.

EL, it is like you want sex, but you don't really want your wife to socialize with friends or do her activities.

Nor do you want (really want) to join her and her friends in the hot tub (not naked!) They are NOT NAKED either are they? (wanted to clear that up)

Nor do you "really" like to or want to join your wife in any other activities outside the home, do you?

Admit it, if you had your total choice here you would prefer she "stay at home every night", happily, alone with you and the kids and offer you lots of good sex.

This is the way you truly want this marriage to go, isn't it? In your heart, you want it this way, don't you?

<small>[ October 22, 2004, 11:12 AM: Message edited by: baba2 ]</small>

Baba,

Thanks for this reply. It certainly is an eye openner because I never would have dreamed/imagined you would have said what you did. I would have bet that you would have stood behind me on the "not getting in the hot tub with the women, when their Hs were not there." I truly felt I was just being proper and respectful. I am not trying to be a killjoy. Infact, there were nights this happened that I would have liked to have went into the hot tub.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It is no wonder your wife feels like you are a "killjoy" or "stuffy". Maybe if YOU COULD LET LOOSE and drink some wine and laugh and have fun with your wife and her friends, she would be naturally more attracted to you.

If you strive to be FUN and ATTRACTIVE and PERSONABLE, you maybe would open yourself up to some sex.

If you strive to be BORING, STRAIGHTFORWARD, UNSOCIABLE, and UNACCEPTING and RIGID, you may as well buy that MONKS ROBE since you won't be getting any sex very soon. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You really think so? I try to be fun. However, I like to think that my W and I should be able to go out (like on a date) and have fun. What I realize is that my W has said that she feels that we have more fun with other people being with us. This idea hurts me because I really deep down want to have the type of M where we can have fun doing anything with only each other. Being the old romantic that I am, When I am with my W, the rest of the World melts away and there is only her. IF we both felt this way, then we would not need the interjection of other people in order to have fun. My realization that my W does not feel the same way saddens me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Tell me if I am wrong here. I am thinking a lot since I found out your wife and her friends actually ASKED you into the hot tub to join them.

(I had formerly assumed your wife was cutting you out of her activities on purpose and wanted to be alone with her friends....)

Would you describe yourself in any of these ways?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am thinking long and hard on this question. I would like to write a preamble before I answer this. When I first met my W I was in a job where I traveled around the World. I was divorced and felt free to explore and try new things. The first weekend my W and I spent together, we concieved our S. From that moment onward, my life began to take on more and more serious roles. I not only had another adult to help take care of (because I changed her life by our getting pregnant), but I now have a child to take care of. Two years after this point, we were building our first house so we could raise our S in a home and not an apartment. We wanted to give him the best we could. Around this time, I found that the job I had changed to so I would not be traveling as much, was in dire straights because straights because the Company was going bankrupt. This was an extremely difficult time for me because I did not know how we were going to pay for the house, and how I was going to take care of my family. I ended up taking an even larger risk and bought part of the Company and took the reins to try and get stability back in our lives. I never ran a Company before and the pressure is fantastic. I had a lot of proffessional "growing up to do." Our lives were very serious from the point of concieving our S to now. I really had not thought about how you put things until you wrote it down. I have tried to do "fun" things trying to be fun again, like going out on the town for the night, or going on very nice vacations. From my end, the dissapointment with our doing these kinds of things were that from time to time, my W would make the comment that some of these things would have been better with another couple or other people in volved. To me this is hurtful and bothersome, but maybe I am taking things wrong.

Thinking along these lines, some of what my W has been saying over the past months could be attributed to this concept as well. She would say, "Why do we always have to talk about our R?" or, "Why do we always have to be so serious when we talk?" Maybe you are onto something here.

Now, your list: First, I think there is not one person who could not find anything on this list that would not be used to describe themselves.

Traditional - I could see me being described as traditional in some aspects.

Rigid - I could be seen as rigid on some items, but again, I have to be in running a business.

Judgemental - I have been called this, even by some posters.

Unaccepting - I can be unaccepting at times.

Jealous - Obviously, my W has seen me as jealous.

Controlling - Again, my W has seen me as controlling.


Unhappy
Sad
Depressed
Down
Blue
Unsmiling
Frowning - I could use all of these to describe how I feel in particular about my M.

Unsocial - Sometime I feel unsocial. I used to me more social, but becoming the "boss" tends to change that, when you used to be friends and now you are responsible for the bottom line.

Prefers to be alone with family at home - a lot of time I feel like this usually because I am tired from work. However, I also do request we do something with other people at times.

TV watcher - I do watch TV. My W watches way more than me, but I do watch too much I think.

Sexually Deprived
Unsexy - I do feel these things. Obviously, one of my reasons I am here is that I feel sexually deprived in my M. Being sexually deprived makes me feel unsexy.

Logical - I do feel I am a logical person. I do not see this as a bad trait though.

No hobbies - I have not really had a lot of extra time over the last 5 - 6 years to have any hobbies. I do consider growing the Company as a hobby.

Needy - My W would probably describe me as this, since I am left with needing any positive attention I can get from her since I do feel deprived of this.

Thrifty - I believe I am mostly thrifty, except for things like a nice vacation. Then I spare no expense.

Wants things a certain way - Doesn't everyone?

Responsible
Good worker
Hates to be late - Yes, these are me. These are also my W.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If some of these things are true, then I can see why your wife is trying to break away from her boring life (and you) and bring some fun into it.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do not see why some of these traits are being labled as "bad" and would cause someone to "run away" from me. For instance, if I was not responsible, would this be more attractive?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> In fact, in order to have "fun" at all in her life, (instead of the often total hard work and drugery of a SAHM) she might have to leave you behind if you do not follow "willingly" with her into her "fun" things to do. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is all well and good, but what about what I would like to do and consider fun? Is it not part of her responsibility to also participate in what I find entertaining?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Are you willing to have fun with your wife or will you stand on the sidelines watching her and trying to impose your "rules" of life?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course I am dying to have "fun" with my W. I would rather die than stand on the sidelines.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My RX for you is to have FUN this next weekend and next week with your wife. Look for no less than 5 oportunities to take advantage of that you would not normally do with your wife. Join her in 5 fun activities, things she has planned, or things you plan that are fun. Pretend that you enjoy socializing with neighbors and friends. Get a sitter for the kids if you have to or bring them along. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sounds like a good RX. I will try to add more things.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I see a real lack of fun in your life and your wife craves this. You can do fun things with her. You can find out what things are FUN to her and join her on that level. Or, she will have to do fun things on her own without you furthur separating you two. It is your own choice which way this goes. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do see a lack of fun in our lives, but unfortunately some of this has been sacraficed for what we both saw as the greater good. We are so entrenched (up to our eye balls) with this company having to be successfull, that its not funny. Would I like to be able to ignore it and just do what I want, when I want? You bet I would. To have it thrown in my face, that I can't do all these things anymore, because my W and I both made a choice, but now she can start doing some of these things, while I still can't and it is also held against me is a slap in the face. We owe it to our S to be responsible with the choices we have made for our future as well as for our son.

I don't know, watch ya think from all this Baba?

By the way, I have been trying to figure out a costume for Halloween. Maybe, it would be ironic if I got the monk outfit?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I bet you would prefer to socialize very rarely. And your wife knows this. So if you were to change and become really social, she would know IT WAS NOT REALLY YOU and she would get suspicious. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Baba, you have been making an interesting point but are getting a little of course now. Yes, I am probably showing my W some introverted tendencies, but I am not an introvert. I have been so more recently (over last three years), but it is because of being a product of choices we felt we had to make and the effect of having made these choices. However, I do see your point of my W becoming suspicious when I try to not be such an introvert. Point taken.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What do you, personally, like to do to have fun in YOUR life? Can you let loose and have FUN? How long has it been?

Love of FUN = Sexual attractiveness </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I can let loose and have fun. It has been a while since we both were like this together.

MOS -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Quality time with your wife is important, and I don't think the two of you get enough undivided attention time, so I'm all in favor of negotiating for more. But negotiating for more will inherently include making that one-on-one time fun for your wife.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I could not agree with you more. I have asked my W for this a lot. Unfortunately, her claim is that we spend time together at night, in front of the TV with our S. I say, I want more one on one and she gets upset that the time we spend to gether is not good enough. This then goes back to the "everything I do is not good enough" feelings my W says she has. When I do insist and we get a babysitter, my W is not happy because we are "ignoring" our S.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> About the thing last night, I'm honestly puzzled as to what you're angry about. It's clear you were very angry then and are still now, but I really can't figure out why. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not angry as much as severely frustrated with our sex life, or lack there of.

Baba -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Nor do you "really" like to or want to join your wife in any other activities outside the home, do you?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is not the case. I have often asked that we go do things and a lot of the time she does not want to get a sitter for our S, or she is feeling tired, or she is sore somehow. The only time these things do not get in the way is when she is doing things with people that are not me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Admit it, if you had your total choice here you would prefer she "stay at home every night", happily, alone with you and the kids and offer you lots of good sex.

This is the way you truly want this marriage to go, isn't it? In your heart, you want it this way, don't you?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, Never! Way off base. This is not the M I want at all!

Take Care,

EL

OK, I see why you had to become "responsible" and knuckle down right away. And why you still have to maintain that. I would have done the same things.

But something was lost in becoming so responsible.

1. Your wife seems to have more fun with you when others are around. Than with you ALONE.

2. You would rather have fun with just HER.

I do not know why this is. But it would create a conflict between you two.....

Extremely Lost

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> did not mean to imply that I got to decide how my W feels. I meant more of at what point does a person have enough of their spouse making them feel like they do not value your M as much as you might. Even if the offending spouse thinks they value the M very much, actions and comments made to their spouse may not directly support this in their spouse's eyes. No matter how much a spouse says, "I love you very much. You mean the World to me." It does not amount to much if they are hitting their spouse and saying these things. Now, I used an extreme example to make my point. Replace hitting with "negative actions that would cause or imply a lack of caring" and you get my M. So why is it that physical abuse is an ultimate item to be acceptable to make a judgement call, but negative actions are not necessarily accepted for forming an opinion? You see what I am asking here? Anyone can rationalize the negative actions of a spouse to make their spouse seem nicer or more noble than they really are. This is what causes people to stay in very bad relationships for lengths of time. It is human nature to not admit defeat and move on. Why not look at this a different way, I know that if I knew of an action that offends my W, I am totally prepared to try and change it to the best of my ability because I love her. Why is it wrong to expect anything less from your spouse? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah, you really do ask some very good questions, you know? This one is a toughie.. I have an answer, but it’s probably going to be pretty long. And, in order to get to the bottom of this very complicated question, I’m going to need to step back in places and redefine some words so that we have a common understanding. You see, we’ve talked about this many times and over many incidents (at least I’ve tried to) and I think that what is happening is that the words we use are getting in our way. So, I’m going to ask for your patience in this as I try to explain my meaning; in spots, I might redefine some terms as I’m using them which will be differently than you usually might think of them or vary from a common definition. I’d ask you to insert my definition for the sake of my reply since in this forum I’m unable to halt the discussion and renegotiate a different term with you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Why not look at this a different way, I know that if I knew of an action that offends my W, I am totally prepared to try and change it to the best of my ability because I love her. Why is it wrong to expect anything less from your spouse? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Let’s start here.

The key word in the above paragraph is action. For the sake of this discussion, I’m going to define an action as ‘something someone actually does.’ I’m going to use it as an active verb. An example of an action would be walking down a street or saying a particular phrase that is objectionable or hitting someone. I’m also going to draw a clear line between an action and a thought, feeling, or opinion. So, while I might feel like hitting my spouse, that is going to be very different from actually performing the action of drawing back my hand then moving it forward so it contacts his face.

Adjacent to thoughts, feelings, and opinions I’m also going to talk about motivations. Motivations will represent the reasons that a person chooses to take or not take any particular action. Motivations can be supported by thoughts/feelings/opinions (TFO, for the sake of brevity) or they can sharply contrast with TFO. For example, I might really FEEL like hitting my husband, but I choose not to since I know I’ll go to jail. My motivation for not hitting him is very different than my feelings about doing it. Or, perhaps my husband doesn’t like me calling him hunny-bunny. My motivation for not doing it is to make him happy (or at least not annoy him) but my personal opinion is that the word ‘hunny-bunny’ is cute, affectionate, and suits him. Or, I like kissing my H because I love him and I consider that affectionate behavior and know he likes it too. So, my motivation for choosing to kiss him a lot is consistent with my TFO.

Next, we’ll move on to Emotional Needs (EN’s) and I’ll define them as Harley defines them:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
From the “Concepts” section of this website.
What is an emotional need? It is a craving that, when satisfied, leaves you with a feeling of happiness and contentment, and, when unsatisfied, leaves you with a feeling of unhappiness and frustration. There are probably thousands of emotional needs. A need for birthday parties, peanut butter sandwiches, Monday Night Football, I could go on and on. Some have them, some don't. If you feel good doing something, or when someone does something for you, it's meeting an emotional need.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And, finally, I’ll talk about boundaries. Boundaries are generally separate from EN’s. While not having an EN met, leads to unhappiness and frustration, boundary crossing behavior causes severe emotional trauma. A longstanding refusal to meet EN’s CAN become boundary crossing behavior. To illustrate the difference, let’s consider the need of SF. During a marriage there can be many times that the need for SF can not be satisfied - during illness or directly following child birth, for example. Even though the need for SF isn’t being met and that might make the spouse with a higher need for SF frustrated in that regard, that is not boundary crossing behavior because it is either ‘understood’ or negotiated. But, if the need for SF is chronically unmet over a period of years and hasn’t been negotiated or ‘understood’ then that can BECOME boundary crossing behavior.

So, let’s put all this together.

Emotional needs are actions that you need/want/desire your spouse to do for you to make deposits in your love bank and so that you can feel happy, fulfilled and satisfied with your marriage. Boundaries are actions that you take in specific situations in order to protect yourself from emotional or physical harm. You do not ask your spouse to perform boundary related actions because those are only actions that you take yourself. For example, if a boundary is that you are unwilling to remain married to an unfaithful partner. You can TELL your spouse about your boundary and your intentions, but to subsequently then DEMAND that your spouse remain faithful (so you won’t have to leave) is still a Selfish Demand. Anytime you demand your spouse to do an action you are committing a Selfish Demand. The real problem with demanding compliance is that, of course, there is really no way to force fidelity. People either decide to be faithful, or they don’t. All the demands in the world won’t stop a spouse who is determined to break his or her vows. So, aside from being a love buster, demanding is ineffective.

So, the distinction between boundaries and emotional needs is that boundaries are always actions that YOU take and filling emotional needs are actions that YOUR SPOUSE takes.

Since we know that demands are both an ineffective method of getting your spouse to do anything and a love buster, how do you manage to get Emotional Needs met? Well, you negotiate and make thoughtful requests. That is easy to say, but actually it is very difficult to accomplish and people tend to fall into a few fairly common pit falls.

One pitfall, is to confuse Emotional Needs with Boundaries. When we confuse the two, we sign ourselves up for a lot of frustration because, again, we really can’t control what another human being does. So, we really can’t control what ACTIONS our spouse is willing to do to meet our Emotional Needs by simply DEMANDING those actions and calling them “Boundaries.” When this happens, the spouse usually becomes frustrated and angry at being “Told what to do” by the offending spouse. The receiving spouse might be motivated for a short while to perform the actions in order to avoid conflict, but the resentment usually builds up and eventually, the spouse will withdraw.

Another pitfall is to confuse negotiation with having the same TFO. The purpose of negotiation is NOT to change your spouse’s TFO, instead it is to build enthusiastic agreement on an ACTION. It is very attractive to want our spouse to value the same needs in the same way that we do because then we conclude there is a HIGHER likelihood of having that need met properly. So, it is easy to fall into the realm of disrespectful judgments by trying to ‘fix our spouse’s’ TFO’s or to ‘educate our spouse’ or to ‘change their minds’ about how they feel about particular EN’s.

Let’s consider the need for SF as an example. In many cases, the high drive spouse wants to find some way to change the low drive spouse’s TFO regarding SF so that s/he can feel better about having that need met. The low drive spouse might try to convince the high drive spouse that the need for SF is foolish, or juvenile, or piggish so s/he can feel better about not meeting the need.

EN’s are very tender parts of our psyche; we’re very vulnerable there. No one wants to go to their spouse feeling like they have to supplicate for their needs to be met. People are naturally afraid of rejection in terms of ANY important EN. So, one “solution” people try is to use DJ’s as a method of changing how their spouse’s TFO about SF so that they can have that need met without risking rejection. Afterall, if she wants it just as much as he does, doesn’t that imply that they will have lots of SF? So, instead of negotiating for the ACTIONS required to satisfy the EN of SF, you have someone trying to use DJ’s in order to CONVINCE their spouse to WANT SF in the same way. The spouse who is being “convinced” will often become resentful and withdraw because no one likes to be told what she or he should think, feel, or want, right? So, instead of negotiating how s/he can feel enthusiastic, the energy goes into trying to convince the high drive spouse s/he doesn’t really need it, anyway.

Working to change your spouse’s thoughts, feelings, or opinions, is NOT negotiation and it is NOT POJA.

Negotiation is about motivation. Negotiation is about finding positive reasons – enthusiastic reasons – for your spouse to perform ACTIONS that meet your EN’s. Those reasons do NOT have to be because your spouse finally ‘came to her senses’ and realized that SF should be number one. Your spouse can be motivated to meet your need for SF for reasons that have nothing to do with how much she enjoys the experience or how many O’s she has. They could be for reasons of being affectionate, enjoying the admiration that follows, enjoying the conversations that you are willing to provide which meet HER important EN’s. Holding up “Well, it makes me happy so you should do it.” as the motivation for an action is a selfish demand. It’s inviting resentment by implying that making you happy should be placed above her own TFO and not acknowledging that her motivation for making you happy is very closely tied to YOU making HER happy.

At the heart of POJA is the idea that “I’ll meet your needs enthusiastically if you meet mine enthusiastically.” Wow.. there’s a good arrangement. It’s not “Meet my needs because we’re married and you SHOULD make me happy.” It’s not “We’re married now so you must meet my needs.” Those are demands. It’s all about NEGOTATION.

So, back to your question…

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So why is it that physical abuse is an ultimate item to be acceptable to make a judgement call, but negative actions are not necessarily accepted for forming an opinion? You see what I am asking here? Anyone can rationalize the negative actions of a spouse to make their spouse seem nicer or more noble than they really are.

--AND—

Why not look at this a different way, I know that if I knew of an action that offends my W, I am totally prepared to try and change it to the best of my ability because I love her. Why is it wrong to expect anything less from your spouse? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Forming judgments, opinions, thoughts, and feelings about the state of your relationship is permissible at any time. As long as they are YOUR TFO’s. When you stray into dangerous territory is when you construct motivations for your spouse that aren’t explicitly stated. The reason this is an unhealthy action is because you don’t give your spouse the opportunity to clarify his or her true motivations. It’s also dangerous to try to manipulate someone’s motivations. Trying to convince someone to adopt your point of view about a situation is, essentially, trying to manipulate his or her motivations. The reason those actions are ‘bad’ is because they tend to build resentment in the manipulated spouse and they just don’t build healthy marriages.

What builds healthy marriages is negotiating actions not TFO’s or motivations. Let’s take another near and dear example from your situation. Your wife likes to sign “love” at the bottom of her emails. If you try to negotiate the ACTION of her not signing “love” at the bottom of her emails, it’s a very different process than if you try to manipulate her MOTIVATION for signing “love” at the bottom of her emails. It might be that her TFO never changes and she always thinks it’s OK to sign “love” at the bottom of her emails – but her actions can still be different. And, her very VALID motivation for refraining can be because it makes you uncomfortable.

In order to change her MOTIVATION, you’d work to change her TFO on the matter. Doing that is disrespectful to her because it implies that her TFO’s on the matter is less important than your TFO on the matter. It’s also unlikely to be effective and VERY likely to drain her love bank.

Making it a boundary only works if you define what your action will be each and every time she chooses to sign “love” at the bottom of her email. You can’t project a boundary on to her actions – because it doesn’t work.

So, what’s left is to negotiate for the ACTION that you’re trying to accomplish. Ask her what would make her feel enthusiastic about the deal. Stop trying to change her TFO and, instead, learn to trust that even if her motivation is only ‘to make you happy’ and not ‘because she believes it’s wrong’ she can still be sufficiently motivated and keep you safe.

And that, Extremely Lost, is what’s at the very heart of true POJA and true negotiation – TRUST. You have to trust that your partner will live up to her end of the bargain because there is sufficient value in the agreement for her that she becomes enthusiastic about doing it. If your partner is not enthusiastic about meeting your needs then demanding that she meet them won’t work. Trying to change her mind about wanting those needs for herself or changing her TFO’s on the needs won’t work. The only thing that will work is to find whatever motivation she needs to be truly enthusiastic about meeting the needs. The good news is that most of the time, people become enthusiastic about meeting needs when their own needs are met in exchange. After all, that’s how we fall in love and marry in the first place.

So, this was very long and rambling. The bottom line answer to your question is that EN’s are met through negotiation and mutually enthusiastic agreement. In order to negotiate, you have to be able to eliminate the LB’s of Selfish Demands and Disrespectful Judgments. When, after you’ve attempted to negotiate for your needs in good faith and you are still unable to have your needs met and you determine FOR YOURSELF that your boundaries have been crossed then THAT is the time that you need to figure out what ACTIONS YOU NEED TO TAKE to protect yourself. Until then, in my very long winded opinion, you still have work to do.

I hope this helps cause I’m tired now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Mys

Hiya EL,

You have asked your wife for more one-on-one time -- yup, I know you have!

But I think two things are missing from that process.

And I think you need some mys magic in here.

First, I think that just asking won't do the job -- this is a build agreement and negotiate deal. Leaving these steps out is part of why your wife feels like you are trying to control her. You state what you want, and then she's left with either doing it or not doing it, and this drives you apart. Building agreement and negotiating out something you both really want is what's going to bring you together.

Second, this sounds like a boundary issue. I would certainly stand up and applaud if you decided it's a boundary for you that you won't stay in a marriage where you and your wife don't get dedicated alone time (and watching tv with your son is not alone time for you as a couple).

But I would also stand up and applaud if your wife decided it's a boundary for her that she won't stay in a marriage where her time is just demanded of her -- instead of, for example, being negotiated so that it's an enthusiastic thing for both of you.

<small>[ October 22, 2004, 01:18 PM: Message edited by: mineownself ]</small>

Wheee, well I'm getting an education even is no one else is. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I think part of the gist I'm getting (thwack me if I'm wrong) is:

EL: My wife should be enthusiastic about what I want.

Mys: Nope, your wife should be enthusiastic about what she wants. You can negotiate so you both get actions you want and are enthusiastic about, but your wife still gets to be enthusiastic or not enthusiastic as she chooses and that's just fine.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Mys: Nope, your wife should be enthusiastic about what she wants. You can negotiate so you both get actions you want and are enthusiastic about, but your wife still gets to be enthusiastic or not enthusiastic as she chooses and that's just fine. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ya know.. coming on here and posting a 3 line summary to what takes me 10,000 words to spit out is not earning you any points in my good book... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> *grumble*

Ya, that's what I meant.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Mys

<small>[ October 22, 2004, 01:35 PM: Message edited by: myschae ]</small>

Well said mineownself.

EL,
Negotiating so it's entusiastic for the two of you. My H is not a very socialable person either and he did not know how to have fun. For this we pick events we both liked. I grew up snowmobiling and H rode on cousins sleds when he was a kid, so we picked up some used sleds. This has helped in the social area, as we take many trips as a group. We parked our fifth wheel camper at a winter site with other snowmobiler enthusiasts, so we are around many people now. I realize these are not all affordable to some, but so many things are out there that you can enjoy.. Go have some fun!


Good luck,
Laura2

Good Morning, I hope all had a good weekend.

I tried to respond on Friday to some of your posts, but the server was down. Anyway, you guys did have an influence on me over the weekend. Basically, last Friday was the last day of a 12 day straight, work period for me. I was looking forward to just relaxing and spending some quality time with the family. However, I get a call from a neighbor friend of mine and he asks if I would be interested in getting a drink with him after work because he was going to meet up with another friend of his near where I work. I told him I needed to check with my W and I would get back with him. He was going to call me when it was closer to the time he was going to meet his friend.

Now, I feel confused because, I would like to go and have a drink with my friend, but I also have been working for 12 days straight and have not spent a ton of time with my family. If you remember, some of the girls in the neighborhood (at their Bunco night) tried to talk my W into throwing a spur of the moment Friday night hot tub bash and she said no claiming "My H has been working for two weeks straight and this will be his first night off and I would not want to do that to him." She told me this Wednesday night and I thought it was very thoughtful of her. I wonder if she just used me as a convenient excuse, though or not. But I took her at her word an remained happy about her thinking of me. Anyway, my W pushes me to do more things with other people without her. She tells me I should take a weekend trip to see old friends or I should go out with friends. I try to explain to her that I would rather go out and have fun with her. You see, I am not anti-social by any means, but I do not have a lot of time these days to socialize. Therefore, when I do have the time, I like to try and maximize my W's and my time together in hopes of improving our M. So I talked to my W and she said, "Yeah, I don't mind. I push you to do these things." I said, "Yeah, I know, but I cannot help feeling bad because you turned down having a hot tub party because it was my first night off in a while." She said, "I just did not feel like throwing a spur of the moment bash, and I did not think it would be fair to you." So I said OK and planned on going out for a little bit after work. At the end of my day, my friend called and said, "My friend had to cancel so I picked up some beer and thought we could get together at one of our houses." Usually, my W and I get together with this guy and his W and their kids play with our S. I said, "Let me check with my W." I talked to my W and she said, "Well, I turned down going out with a couple of the women in the neighborhood because I thought you were going out. I guess it would be OK if they come over." I got home and called our neighbors and it ended up that his W did not want to come over because she wanted to get her kids to bed early. So now its my W, this neighbor and me. My W is obviously dissapointed, how much fun could this be for her. Anyway, a different neighbor called up and invited us over because they were having an impromptu get together, and the wife of the neighbor at our house agreed to go to this because it was right across the street. So we all went over there and had a good time.

Now the reason I went through this long winded explanation was to give you the background. While we are at this gathering of neighbors, the conversation turned to OS. Some of the men were asking, "Why is it that a woman tends to participate in OS until she is married?" As you could imagine, there were many different opinions on this subject and I just kept quite and listened eagerly to what my W had to say. My W ended up saying, "that first of all, nobody likes to do things they feel are a duty and that they have to do those things. Some women never liked OS form the beginning. Some women do. I do not see why being married would change that for someone." I thought her answer was pretty plain, but I did find her comment on not liking things if she thought they were a "duty."

Another interesting thing to come out of the night, was that there was a younger male neighbor who was there without his W. This guy flirts with some of the women in my "guy" opinion. He was doing this with my W and I just watched her reactions. It was interesting. I did not get overly upset with this and let the night play out. At the end of the night, my W mentions to me that she thought that guy was a jerk and had suspicions about that guy. I told her that he was flirting with her. I expressed that in my opinion, my W has trouble picking up when guys are actually flirting with her. My W does not argue this point about her not picking these things up, but she did say, "I can handle myself." I know my W can handle herself and I am trying to give her a lot of credit for this. I think it was a pretty positive evening. A lot of the guys made typical "guy" comments and mistakes in what or how they were saying things to the women. I just sat back and let them jump off cliffs themselves. Then I explained how I felt on things one on one with my W and she was somewhat receptive to my feelings and opinions. I should see this as a positive step forward. It does give me confidence for our upcoming MC appointment on Tuesday morning.

With this new piece of information, about how my W is overly sensitive to feeling negative towards things she even percieves as a "duty," should I do/say anything different in this upcoming MC session that could help our cause? I definitely do not want her to feel things are a duty, but if they continue being ignored, our M will not last.

Now, to your posts:

Baba -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> OK, I see why you had to become "responsible" and knuckle down right away. And why you still have to maintain that. I would have done the same things.

But something was lost in becoming so responsible.

1. Your wife seems to have more fun with you when others are around. Than with you ALONE.

2. You would rather have fun with just HER.

I do not know why this is. But it would create a conflict between you two.....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can probably see why this is, but do not know how to turn it around.

Myschae -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> At the heart of POJA is the idea that ?I?ll meet your needs enthusiastically if you meet mine enthusiastically.? Wow.. there?s a good arrangement. It?s not ?Meet my needs because we?re married and you SHOULD make me happy.? It?s not ?We?re married now so you must meet my needs.? Those are demands. It?s all about NEGOTATION.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Myschae, I am afraid, your well thoughtout explanation has lead me to another question. If I agree with the first sentence in this paragraph, which I do whole heartedly, how do I go about helping my W see this, understand this, accept this and actually work towards this? I am asking this because it seems that based upon the profound statement made in this sentence, this represents an extremely "fair" way to live with in a M. However, for whatever reason, my M consists of me asking for this "fairness" to be accepted and adhered to, while my W is still at the "meet all my needs, and some of yours are silly and I do not have to meet them" stage. I am not trying to be unfair here, believe me (MOS put down the wood woman!). I am truly at a loss, because it seems to me that this sentence represents a nice and wonderful goal, that seems rarely obtainable. My reasoning is this: based upon the state of my M (as I have defined it), MB says I should meet all my W's ENs and squelch my own desire for my ENs to be met (IN THE SHORT TERM) to try and stimulate my W towards wanting the holly grail (your sentence above) so to speak. There are rules/recomendations for how to begin and there are rules/recomendations for how we are supposed to end up; but, there are no steadfast rules/recomendations for the middle. Do you see what I mean?

I have let go of my ENs being met in the short term. I have tried very hard to learn about me as a person, a father and a H. I have taken some difficult paths towards improving myself im all these catagories. Yet, I only see the odd glimmer of hope that I really saw throughout the entire time that we have had our issues. Sure, I get all happy and try to hang my hat on one incident that seems positive, because they are far and few in between. However, when I take the same hard look into our M that I did at myself, I got to wonder what we are doing. This is because, I do not really see any major changes, I do not yet feel like my major ENs are even thought of as valid by my W. So, what is the advice (other than auto-pilot) for a person like me who seems to, despite my best efforts, bestuck in a sort of quagmire? I know things take time and I have been warned by many that these things take a lot of time, but I have been working on this since April. It has now been a year and my W and I have had two physical encounters. The year before we may have had 3 or 4. The year before that maybe 10 - 12. You see, statistically speaking, we are getting worse! What signs do I or better yet, should I hang my hat on that things actually are getting better. You know, the MC as well as posters here tell me to make a mountain out of a mole hill about the little things my W seems to do, such as maybe grabbing my hand (once in 6 months). Well, I tell ya, this is not enough! I totally can respect your statements regarding how I cannot change someone or control them or make them accept my POV over their own. I really am fine with this, however, what safeguards are in place with this entire MB system that stop the other spouse from running amuck with their POV being the end all/be all?

Naturally, when you have two people who are married and are in conflict for a number of years. For this example use the man as X and the woman as Y. Lets say that X & Y both really want their differences to go away. Lets also assume that both X & Y are two very independent and strong willed people. Lets also say that X finds the MB system, which shows him things that he has been doing that he should change if he cares for Y. X tries really hard to change all the things recomended by MB. Then X tries to impliment a plan to bring Y back into the M. So X does what would be seen as "laying down" to Y to end conflict. X also tries to request from Y, what Y would like so that X can meet Y's ENs. X is met with less help because Y does not offer what Y's ENs are. X goes along for months trying to meet Y's ENs, while X's remain ignored. You see this MB scenario could actually inflate Y's ego instead of help the XY M. This could not only inflate Y's ego, but make Y feel like X is finally understanding that Y was right all this time. With this feeling that Y now has, why would Y consider changing Y's opinions especially towards making X happier, since X is already seeming happier because MB has told X to do this. What is X to do now?

To let you off the hook a little, I think some thing you have kind of said in the past will apply to this. Basically, X or I need to test the waters once in a while. I need to be respectful of my W, while at the same time letting it be known that I am unsatisfied with how my ENs are currently met. I must ask about the meeting of my ENs once in a while. I need to find out if any of my ENs are never going to be met. This is what I am going to attempt to do tomorrow in MC.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Forming judgments, opinions, thoughts, and feelings about the state of your relationship is permissible at any time. As long as they are YOUR TFO?s. When you stray into dangerous territory is when you construct motivations for your spouse that aren?t explicitly stated. The reason this is an unhealthy action is because you don?t give your spouse the opportunity to clarify his or her true motivations. It?s also dangerous to try to manipulate someone?s motivations. Trying to convince someone to adopt your point of view about a situation is, essentially, trying to manipulate his or her motivations. The reason those actions are ?bad? is because they tend to build resentment in the manipulated spouse and they just don?t build healthy marriages.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Fine. But, what if your H tells you he loves you every night and although he know you love/lookforward to a good night kiss from him, he will not kiss you good night anymore. Any attempts for verbal answers from you are met with the response "I don't know." Therefore, his words say one thing, his actions another. You feel less loved than you did when he would kiss you good night. Is it really such a far leap for you to feel like he loves you a little less?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What builds healthy marriages is negotiating actions not TFO?s or motivations. Let?s take another near and dear example from your situation. Your wife likes to sign ?love? at the bottom of her emails. If you try to negotiate the ACTION of her not signing ?love? at the bottom of her emails, it?s a very different process than if you try to manipulate her MOTIVATION for signing ?love? at the bottom of her emails. It might be that her TFO never changes and she always thinks it?s OK to sign ?love? at the bottom of her emails ? but her actions can still be different. And, her very VALID motivation for refraining can be because it makes you uncomfortable.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Fine. This is all very systematic. Negotiate for actions, when what you really want feelings from your spouse such as: desire, love, caring etc.. Is MB saying that actions begats feelings? With this understanding, it would be appropriate in MB for pre-arranged Ms because if the two who were pre-arranged were able to negotiate actions, the feeling will follow. Well, what if the feelings do not necessarily follow actions?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So, what?s left is to negotiate for the ACTION that you?re trying to accomplish. Ask her what would make her feel enthusiastic about the deal. Stop trying to change her TFO and, instead, learn to trust that even if her motivation is only ?to make you happy? and not ?because she believes it?s wrong? she can still be sufficiently motivated and keep you safe.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Great, and I wish my M was this way, but if I asked her, in this example, what would make her feel enthusiastic about not signing "love," she would say, "nothing." Then what?

Thanks for this Mys. Sorry for playing Devil's advocate for a few things, but it is what goes through my mind at times. Thanks for the time. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

MineOwnself -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> EL: My wife should be enthusiastic about what I want.

Mys: Nope, your wife should be enthusiastic about what she wants. You can negotiate so you both get actions you want and are enthusiastic about, but your wife still gets to be enthusiastic or not enthusiastic as she chooses and that's just fine. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This summary is fine, but where I go wrong is that I do not necessarily want a particular action that is something you can negotiate. I sometimes wish my W "felt" and expressed her feelings differently. Unfortunately, I understand this is not negotiable. The problem also comes in when I try to understand how my W "feels" on something when she does not come right out and say "I feel like (Fill in blank)." However, I do feel that there are some very basic things that people can take to the bank as to how another person feels. For example, if my W were to drink some sour milk and then make a really nasty face afterwards, I could safely conclude that she does not like that milk or that she "felt" the milk tasted bad. Its the same thing I am asking about with in our M. Sometimes my W does or says something that I feel is "safe to conclude" in a certain way. Unfortunately, when I do this, it typically makes me feel bad that my W feels that way even though she has not come out and explicitely said "I feel (fill in the blank)."

Struggling4Years -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Negotiating so it's entusiastic for the two of you. My H is not a very socialable person either and he did not know how to have fun. For this we pick events we both liked. I grew up snowmobiling and H rode on cousins sleds when he was a kid, so we picked up some used sleds. This has helped in the social area, as we take many trips as a group. We parked our fifth wheel camper at a winter site with other snowmobiler enthusiasts, so we are around many people now. I realize these are not all affordable to some, but so many things are out there that you can enjoy.. Go have some fun!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Its actually not a problem with me being social. I am a pretty sociable person when I have the time. However, I do not have a lot of time since I am bringing in the income. We made a joint decision to become business owners and we went over all this entailed as far as how it will take a large amount of my time. I must say my W was enthusiastic about it in the beginning. She does not really give me a hard time about this, even to this day. Unfortunately, she has started to grow towards doing more things with others instead of making our time together as good as it could be. I, however, have not grown away from still wanting "us time." This is the real issue.

Thanks to all of you for your inputs.

Take Care,

EL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Extremely Lost:
<strong> However, for whatever reason, my M consists of me asking for this "fairness" to be accepted and adhered to, while my W is still at the "meet all my needs, and some of yours are silly and I do not have to meet them" stage. I am not trying to be unfair here, believe me (MOS put down the wood woman!). </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ROFL!!!

To answer one of your questions:

It's naturally and normal to feel hurt and to feel less loved if your spouse stops kissing you goodnight. We each of us have certain things that make us feel loved and in love -- ENs.

But jumping to the conclusion "my spouse loves me less" is a DJ.

Let me repeat, "I feel less loved and cared for" is a description of one's own feelings and a description of how certain actions or changes in behavior can affect those feelings.

"You love me less" is a conclusion the other person's TFO and a disrespectful judgement. It doesn't matter how "reasonable" a line of logic you can build to support that conclusion, it's still a disrespectful judgement.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "You love me less" is a conclusion the other person's TFO and a disrespectful judgement. It doesn't matter how "reasonable" a line of logic you can build to support that conclusion, it's still a disrespectful judgement. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Fair enough. Then in this example, if I would say, "honey, when you do not kiss me good night, I feel less loved," this would be OK. However, I know my W has said things that would fit this example. If this example were to be about us, my W would say, "Great, now the way I go to bed is not good enough for you. You tell me what you want me to do and I'll do it." I would then try to take one shot at explaining that I was not trying to "control" or "scold" her, and that I was merely trying to let her know how I felt regarding something she was doing. Typically, she would not see my point and come back with something that used to easily antagonize me into furthering the beginning of a "circular argument." Now, I would just cut it off after that by saying something like, "I am sorry that you feel I am trying to tell you how to do something. I was not. However, I wish to not continue the direction of this conversation because I believe it is unhealthy for the both of us." Usually she will allow it to drop after this as well.

Extremely Lost

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> With this new piece of information, about how my W is overly sensitive to feeling negative towards things she even percieves as a "duty," should I do/say anything different in this upcoming MC session that could help our cause? I definitely do not want her to feel things are a duty, but if they continue being ignored, our M will not last. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Usually people feel things are a ‘duty’ when they aren’t enthusiastic about the deal. Implementing POJA is a way to negotiate without someone having to feel like they are performing a ‘duty’ because they are mutually enthusiastic.

I know, I know.. “what if that person is never enthusiastic?”… more on that in a minute.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Myschae, I am afraid, your well thoughtout explanation has lead me to another question. If I agree with the first sentence in this paragraph, which I do whole heartedly, how do I go about helping my W see this, understand this, accept this and actually work towards this? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Seriously? The easiest way I’ve found is to hone my negotiation skills to such a fine point that I don’t walk away from the table until BOTH of us are enthusiastic. Until that happens, we’re not done.

It’s not like we haven’t had our share of ‘failed’ attempts. People often don’t get it right on the first (or second, or third.. or..) try. Eventually, I learned that my H has a few passive aggressive traits.. (or, rather, had.. I’ve since beaten them out of him <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) and I just had to learn to make each deal as important to him as it was to me. Albeit, the REASONS it was important for each of us were usually wildly different. In the beginning, for us, it started out with me as the sort of .. Mediator extraordinaire. So, while I looked out for my own interests, I was keenly aware of HIS interests too. I refused to get sumthin’ fer nuthin’. And, let me tell YOU, was that a struggle sometimes. He’d want to ‘agree’ just to end the discussion but I hung in there until he got something measurably important out of that deal. After awhile, that got to be too much work for me, so I told him he needed to learn to be his own Best Advocate.. but by then things were much further along and easier.

So, yeah, there were a lot of times that “I’m sorry, but just agreeing with me on this issue doesn’t get to fix it. We’re not done yet.” was said in my house.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am asking this because it seems that based upon the profound statement made in this sentence, this represents an extremely "fair" way to live with in a M. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is fair. It’s also very safe and secure because it takes a lot of the guessing out.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> However, for whatever reason, my M consists of me asking for this "fairness" to be accepted and adhered to, while my W is still at the "meet all my needs, and some of yours are silly and I do not have to meet them" stage. I am not trying to be unfair here, believe me (MOS put down the wood woman!). I am truly at a loss, because it seems to me that this sentence represents a nice and wonderful goal, that seems rarely obtainable. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I’m not sure it’s true that it’s rarely attainable. I’m willing to grant that, based on this message board and personal experience, I believe that many people don’t live this way. But, I’m not sure what the percentage of those people have ever really tried or even KNOW about it. It seems that would factor in to that conclusion. But, rare or not, it IS attainable. I’m 100% certain. I do it every single day.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My reasoning is this: based upon the state of my M (as I have defined it), MB says I should meet all my W's ENs and squelch my own desire for my ENs to be met (IN THE SHORT TERM) to try and stimulate my W towards wanting the holly grail (your sentence above) so to speak. There are rules/recomendations for how to begin and there are rules/recomendations for how we are supposed to end up; but, there are no steadfast rules/recomendations for the middle. Do you see what I mean? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sure there are! I’ve been trying to nudge you in that direction for a little while now. *nudge* *nudge*

How you act in the middle is that you become honest about your needs but WITHOUT dictating, demanding, or forming expectations. You learn to NEGOTIATE to have your needs met. What generally ends up happening is that you don’t ever really get to where you ‘want’ to be needs wise but you end up somewhere that you’re happy with.

The stage you’re at right now is the stage where you’re setting up negotiations. You’re not supposed to go in there and say ”Honey, do this to show you love me.” You’re supposed to go in there and negotiate what you can be mutually enthusiastic about. That means brainstorming away from your ideals and meeting together somewhere in the middle. Now, I don’t mean negotiate away your NEEDS (Oh, goodness, no.) but negotiate HOW they’re met. Be open to some different ideas on what would meet your needs.

This is the nitty gritty. This is where the communication lines that have been closed need to get open. If they don’t open, you’re just not going to get where you’re going.

And, for what it’s worth, I think your MC is moving too slowly. This should be a faster progression and implementation of this. That’s why I’m always pushing you. Well, ok, not always.. but have 2 good weeks and I’m pounding on the table for you to bring things up. You’ve been doing quite well now for long enough. Get your needs out there. Your goal is to state them clearly and describe them (for now). SOON AFTER, needs to come dialogue and negotiation. But not immediately after, give her some time to process.

There’s your middle.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, I tell ya, this is not enough! I totally can respect your statements regarding how I cannot change someone or control them or make them accept my POV over their own. I really am fine with this, however, what safeguards are in place with this entire MB system that stop the other spouse from running amuck with their POV being the end all/be all? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">*sighs* I don’t really think it has anything to do with POV, it has to do with comfort zones maybe. Or, maybe it does, it really doesn’t matter which words you use.

What’s in place in MB to keep you from ‘giving away the store’ is Radical Honesty: Speak honestly about your feelings and needs. POJA – don’t do things you aren’t enthusiastic about. And, finally, boundaries.

Your biggest tool is Radical Honesty. You’re not happy. Stop being silent about it. Yes, speaking up will cause conflict. The basic over view for a withdrawn spouse is as follows.

First, understand what withdrawal is and what it means. People withdraw when they’re tired of being hurt or not having their needs met. They go to a place of safety within themselves because they are afraid to invest in the relationship. It’s a method of conflict avoidance – they’ve usually tried some form (mild to extreme) of conflict to resolve the situation and haven’t had results. In order to entice someone out of withdrawal, you first have to offer her some hope that you are capable of meeting her needs and stop the Lovebank draining behaviors (LB’s). You fill her lovebank for a time, without expecting that she will be able to fill yours. Then, you use radical honesty and POJA to negotiate to have your needs met. This will invariably lead you back INTO conflict. BUT, this time, you’re going to handle conflict differently. This time you’re not going to use selfish demands or DJ’s in conflict. This time you’re going to stay at the negotiating table until you’re both mutually enthusiastic. You stay in conflict until you resolve the conflict. You have to face it. THAT is your middle ground.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> With this feeling that Y now has, why would Y consider changing Y's opinions especially towards making X happier, since X is already seeming happier because MB has told X to do this. What is X to do now? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Enter conflict and negotiate. If X has to, then he will enforce some boundaries and Plan B. You don’t get stuck in the cycle of filling needs while yours go unmet endlessly. You do that part in order to recreate hope in Y that the union is able to meet her needs.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> To let you off the hook a little, I think some thing you have kind of said in the past will apply to this. Basically, X or I need to test the waters once in a while. I need to be respectful of my W, while at the same time letting it be known that I am unsatisfied with how my ENs are currently met. I must ask about the meeting of my ENs once in a while. I need to find out if any of my ENs are never going to be met. This is what I am going to attempt to do tomorrow in MC. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yep.

You make respectful requests and attempt to negotiate. At the same time, you fill needs and avoid LB’s. At the end of whatever period of time YOU feel is reasonable – after you’ve been successful at eliminating LB’s and filling her needs and respectfully communicating your needs – then you go to a higher risk strategy and withdraw to a respectful distance. You let your spouse make a choice. Either negotiation happens and you work on this marriage together or there is no more marriage.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Fine. But, what if your H tells you he loves you every night and although he know you love/lookforward to a good night kiss from him, he will not kiss you good night anymore. Any attempts for verbal answers from you are met with the response "I don't know." Therefore, his words say one thing, his actions another. You feel less loved than you did when he would kiss you good night. Is it really such a far leap for you to feel like he loves you a little less? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">*sighs* My serious answer to this question is “yes, it is a far leap” because there could be other reasons. But, frankly, it might be a ‘no’ in some senses.

I’m not speaking very clearly today. Let me try that again.

If I was in that situation and all I got to my verbal queries was “I don’t know”, I’d be MORE likely to conclude that something was wrong between us that we can’t discuss or negotiate this. Depending on the importance to me, I’d either respectfully ask that he kiss me or find some other expression of love that would work just as well for me that he didn’t mind. If it was just that one issue, no, I wouldn’t start wondering if he loved me. If I always got a ‘no’ and an answer like “I don’t know” to requests, I might wonder if he was in withdrawal. At which point, it probably is true that he loves me less (has less in love feelings towards me) than he had prior. So, I’d do something about that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

In no way would I assume he’s doing it in a ‘bad way’ to punish me or because he’s trying to be spiteful or vindictive. I wouldn’t see this as something he needs to change about himself because it’s ‘wrong for him to love me less’ I’d see it as a problem we need to work out by finding something that he does like to do instead of kiss me or work out by figuring out why he’s in withdrawal. What needs have I missed? Am I LBing? Is something else going on?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Fine. This is all very systematic. Negotiate for actions, when what you really want feelings from your spouse such as: desire, love, caring etc.. Is MB saying that actions begats feelings? With this understanding, it would be appropriate in MB for pre-arranged Ms because if the two who were pre-arranged were able to negotiate actions, the feeling will follow. Well, what if the feelings do not necessarily follow actions? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I’m not ENTIRELY sure I understand your question but I’m going to take a stab at answering what I THINK you mean. If I’m wrong, just correct me and I’ll try again.

MB says that people fall in love when you meet their needs. MB does not say that people fall in love by meeting YOUR needs. However, being in love because their needs are met, generally tends to make people feel enthusiastic about meeting needs for their partner because they love them and not because those needs are now their own. So, desire is a funny thing. I might desire my H physically (a high SF drive). Or, I might desire my H lovingly (a low/moderate SF drive but a LOT of loving feelings). In the end, the action SF, can be the same. You get my meaning?

So, no, she’s not going to fall in love with you through meeting your needs. She’s going to meet your needs because you’ve done such a good job meeting hers and filling her love bank that she feels love from THAT. And, she’s going to be protected because you’re going to negotiate with her to meet your needs in a way you’re both enthusiastic about.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Great, and I wish my M was this way, but if I asked her, in this example, what would make her feel enthusiastic about not signing "love," she would say, "nothing." Then what? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Then you sit back, get comfortable, and say: ”Well, I can see we have some work to do on this. Let’s brainstorm.”

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Thanks for this Mys. Sorry for playing Devil's advocate for a few things, but it is what goes through my mind at times. Thanks for the time. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don’t be sorry. You’re not giving me any headaches. They’re good questions. I hope my answers help.


Mys