baba, I think you've got some good thoughts there, but I also think you're jumping the gun a hair.

For one thing, it hasn't been a year since they've had sex, it's been several weeks. Still not good, I know, but not what you were thinking.

For another, EL LBs a lot. He keeps killing his own sex appeal with his LBs. It's too soon to drag out the big guns on this issue when he hasn't even tried seeing what life without the LBs will do yet.

After all, that is always the first step in MB -- eliminate LBs. All the other techniques cannot be expected to really work if that first step isn't completed. Since EL hasn't even taken step one yet, it's too soon for "put up or shut up", unless it's to tell EL that if he's serious about this Marriage Builders thing, it's time to really do step 1 already.

I hear ya MOS. I read in one of his posts it had been a year. I could be wrong. And it could be too soon. EL, keep the idea in mind for the future if it would not be good now. And keep working on your LB's.

How are you LB'ING now? Can you make a list of LB'S and cross them off one by one as you eliminate them?

(The reason I say this is that is what I did. I eradicated my LB'S this way. When I slip and LB, I catch it early now and continue the eradication process with my own LB'S. )

<small>[ October 29, 2004, 12:58 PM: Message edited by: baba2 ]</small>

Hello Mys,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Aww… thanks! I really needed to hear that this morning because for some reason I’m just feeling out of sorts. I think it’s the weather (seriously) because it’s windy and overcast and grey. Ugh. That’s pretty much how I feel inside, too. Windy, overcast, and grey. Yuck.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">((hugs!)) Everyone needs a hug once in a while. How about you are a kind and thoughtful person who graces me with her wisdom and is a major force that helps to keep me on track during very difficult times during my life. You are truly appreciated.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yes, you got it! See, you barely need me here anymore. (Not that I’m leaving, I’m just saying.)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't you dare! I need your help more than ever. I am going to need your wonderful abilities of helping me inturpret why my W says/does some things, especially if we are moving into new territory.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, look at it this way. The longer you give and give and give and don’t assert your needs the harder it is going to get. The harder it gets, the more prone to LBing you are. So, that is why you want to start this NOW while you still have some ‘oompf’ left in ya. So, yes, you assert your needs: calmly, respectfully, directly. Then after a period of time (say, in a year.. though a year from NOW seems long.. I’d say at the year ‘total’ mark, depending) if she isn’t ready to re-engage, you withdraw to a higher risk strategy which is Plan B. In Plan B, you curtail contact and you meet NONE of her needs and allow her to decide then if she wants to commit to the marriage or not. Now, if you happen to send her spinning into withdrawal by indulging in a LB fest, then you get to go back into more Plan Aish behavior. But, you’re not going to do that, right?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So you are suggesting another 6 months or so. If I go into a plan B, what if she just jumps into withdrawl and remains there?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> For now, yes, keep it confined to MC. I’d like to see you get all of your needs out on the table before you do anything else.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Fine, I understand. Our next appointment is this coming Thursday because I could not make it on Tuesday. Now, this is interesting. I called home last night before I left work and my W was in a great mood. She asked if there was anything I wanted for dinner. I asked for meat loaf and she made it for me. I got home and she was in a good mood and I brought up that I needed to choose a time for the MC on Thursday and wanted to know what would be better for her day. She did not make a negative comment at all. In fact she suggested a time and I said OK. This is the only time I can remember that she has not said something or acted some way negatively towards the MC when I brought up scheduling the MC. I was pretty happy. I kept the rest of the evening lite and things were status quo, we watched TV together (different couches) and then went to bed.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Her going out of her way to show you that level of trust, could be a reflection of the type of trust she’d like YOU to show HER. Many times, people will treat people like they want to be treated – that’s the golden rule, after all. So, her treatment of you in that area might be her way of showing you through actions what type of behavior she’d like you to show her. In other words, she has no intention of cheating and she believes you have no intention of cheating; so if she treats you one way maybe you’ll catch on that it doesn’t mean you have to go out and cheat. Therefore, you might conclude that it’s safe to treat her the same way. Maybe she’d LIKE to have you go out of your way to prove to her that you don’t think she’s out looking for an affair.

What do you think?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I tend to agree with what you are saying. However, I do not think it is fair to assume that your partner will stay with you forever, if you are not willing to meet their needs. This is an unreasonable and selfish way to expect things to go on.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Wow! I can’t imagine the … er.. chutzpah (to put it nicely) those people were able to muster! Don’t they know that picking on post partum ladies is a bad, bad, idea. All those hormones…I always just provide lots of cushy cuddly things and stay a safe distance.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It did not end there. These people followed us for two years, even to where we built our new house. They kept showing up at odd times trying to offer us money to finish the survey. They showed up on Sunday on day and offer us $200 to finish it. We asked them several times to get away from us and leave us alone. Finally we called the police and filed a report.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, it sounds like at the time she thought it was fixable. Maybe she doesn’t any more. I’ll try to think of a nice, delicate way of asking that question. I usually like direct, but this might need a slightly softer touch.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, I do not understand this point. I do agree with what you are saying. What I do not understand is that if my W went through a lengthy period of time where she believed things could be fixed, but she became dissapointed with not being able to find answers from professionals, to the point that she then no longer believes there is an answer, then why, when presented with a solution and very willing partner, is she not able to reflect back (after a period of time) and think, hey, this might work. If I am there and presenting her with a potential solution while showing that I am willing to put in a ton of extra work to get there, why can she not see the possibility that this could work for us?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Oh? Now that is interesting. I’ll have to think about that. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, I think it is a reaction after feeling incredibly guilty for a number of years because she felt she had changed and did not know "how to fix things," when she had na opportunity to shove off the guiltyness, she jumped at it. Now, I need her to come back towards center on this whole thing and actually see that we both have some proving to do towards each other. As it stands right now, it appears to all be my fault and I have to pay severe homage to her before she will ever even consider the possibility of being a marriage partner to me. Of course all this serves is to massively build resentment inside of me. You remember how she brings up that she feels I have fooled her or dupped her? Well, if you were in my shoes and were being told for a long time that it was not your fault and nothing you have done and then come to be told it is ALL your fault and it will take you an extremely long time of managing your Ps and Qs before you are allowed to be seen as an acceptable M partner, would you not feel like you were massively fooled?

Thanks Mys,

EL

<small>[ October 29, 2004, 02:38 PM: Message edited by: Extremely Lost ]</small>

Baba,

Yes, what you say is very interesting and an idea for the soon to be future. I would like to clear up that we have had sex about two months ago and the time before that was last October 03.

MOS does have a point. I have been working at eliminating LBs. I do think MOS is being a little harsh on me though. I have taken step #1. We all make mistakes and I challenge anyone to show me that they completely live their lives LB free. This is because, there are LBs out there that you do not even know are LBs. What is an LB to one is not to another, especially if the person is LBing themselves and not realizing that their judging what the other person is saying instead of listening is in fact causing the other person to LB towards them and it is not even their spouse's fault, it is their own for judging instead of listening. So, I have eliminated a very large percentage of my LBing with my W. The other thing that needs to be said is that on this post, I do not hold back and occassionally do LB towards my W. All I have to say about this is that it is better I do this here than in front of my W.

I will keep your suggestion in mind. I do think last night was a pretty good sign that my W did not become negative when we discussed rescheduling the MC.

Thanks MOS & Baba,

EL

Hiya EL,

I disagree that you have taken the first step. I do agree that you have taken some major strides on eliminating LBs, but I think you have a long way to go. Not understanding that something isn't an LB doesn't make it drain the love bank any less. I agree that your wife LBs quite a bit, but we're talking about your behavior, not hers. And for what it's worth, I'm all for you asking her respectfully not to speak to you that way whenever she LBs.

I know you're really frustrated with the amount of effort you've put forth and what looks to you like lack of results. My point is that results are not proportional to effort if you don't put the effort in the right places. Eliminating LBs is the *first* step, without which the other MB tools will not be really successful. And it's eliminating LBs, not just getting rid of the easier ones to stop, or cutting back overall. So no, you haven't taken the first step in MB terms. If you want the MB principles to work for you, you need to give them a chance by fully using them.

I hear your frustration, and I know you'd like things to progress faster. You can't master all the MB steps and tools at once because no one has the time and energy for that. But Dr. Harley clearly says that's why you stop the LBing first -- since you can't do it all at once, start there.

Hanging on to the LBing in any way is sabotaging your own efforts. It's time to pick which you care about more -- hanging on to LBing when you feel you really have a reason, or working towards having a good marriage.

Extremely Lost

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> ((hugs!)) Everyone needs a hug once in a while. How about you are a kind and thoughtful person who graces me with her wisdom and is a major force that helps to keep me on track during very difficult times during my life. You are truly appreciated. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Thanks, again.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So you are suggesting another 6 months or so. If I go into a plan B, what if she just jumps into withdrawl and remains there? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, it largely will depend on you. I’d like to see at least another quarter of good effort on behalf of your marriage. For one thing, you’ve got the holidays coming up which will probably give you some time to make some deposits along the attachment and family time areas. But, at the same time, holidays are busy and distracting and can be a little stressful if you have to plan between different sides of the family, etc. So, I see the through the end of December as a time to be gently assertive about your needs while focusing your primary efforts on eliminating LB’s (or keeping them to a bare “I’m only human, after all” minimum).

And, I’d like to see you concentrate on filling your wife’s lovebank by helping her create whatever Holiday atmosphere your family celebrates. From what you’ve described here previously, it does sound as though this area is one in which she will let you fill her lovebank. (Sort of a cross between Family Commitment and Domestic Support.) My suggestion to you would be to substantially relax some of your holiday expectations and try to entice out of your wife what would make the Holidays most stress-free and special for her. So, that means, focus on only planning and doing things that your wife is enthusiastic about. To do that, you might have to decline some invitations that you otherwise would have taken – potentially to family or close friends. I’m putting this idea out there RIGHT NOW so you have some time to think about it. You CAN decide RIGHT NOW for this holiday season to allow yourself to potentially disappoint other important people in your life in order to keep your wife happy. OR, as the case may be, you might have to ramp up your social schedule and suppress your desire for “family ONLY” time in deference for her preference to make the social rounds. (This might be more likely.)

Extremely Lost, the holidays this year are going to give you a great opportunity to fill her bank without love busting if you plan for it. I’d like to suggest that you focus mostly on the needs of Domestic support and family time rather than trying to make it ‘romantic.’ The idea is to gently assert your needs by giving her the information of how you can be happy while at the same time meeting her needs as best you can.

After the end of the year, when things settle down a little bit, I’d like to see that message about your needs change and become directly assertive to strongly assertive. I think if you make it through the holidays making lots of deposits and with few Lovebusters, then you’ll be in a very nice position to do that.

Now, this isn’t a scientific timeline or anything, it was just a general ‘feel’ for a plan that I think would be effective. It’s always worthwhile to be somewhat aware of what’s coming up in life and on the calendar. Holiday bustle, time together, and the feelings (positive and negative) all that creates can be significant in your relationship. Anyway, those are my thoughts, how do you feel about that? I know it means potentially ‘giving up’ some of the holiday traditions that you really like and she’s been lukewarm about, but if all goes right, it’s only temporary (for this year) and there’s a good reason.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Fine, I understand. Our next appointment is this coming Thursday because I could not make it on Tuesday. Now, this is interesting. I called home last night before I left work and my W was in a great mood. She asked if there was anything I wanted for dinner. I asked for meat loaf and she made it for me. I got home and she was in a good mood and I brought up that I needed to choose a time for the MC on Thursday and wanted to know what would be better for her day. She did not make a negative comment at all. In fact she suggested a time and I said OK. This is the only time I can remember that she has not said something or acted some way negatively towards the MC when I brought up scheduling the MC. I was pretty happy. I kept the rest of the evening lite and things were status quo, we watched TV together (different couches) and then went to bed. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nice! I like that you kept the rest of the evening light, too.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I tend to agree with what you are saying. However, I do not think it is fair to assume that your partner will stay with you forever, if you are not willing to meet their needs. This is an unreasonable and selfish way to expect things to go on. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree but I doubt whether or not she’s really projected things out that far. People often get caught up in a day to day cycle of activities and can be unaware of how much time is passing – especially when it’s something that they’re not really actively DOING. One downfall of Plan A behavior that you’ve discovered is that it tends to mask your unhappiness. You’re focused on showing her that you CAN meet her needs and giving her hope in the marriage without asking for your needs to be met so it’s easy for her to form the impression that you’re happy with that. It’s normal. It’s natural. It’s working as intended; because at this stage you’re letting her know that you aren’t happy. But, not in a “look at all I did for you; now it’s your turn” kind of way.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It did not end there. These people followed us for two years, even to where we built our new house. They kept showing up at odd times trying to offer us money to finish the survey. They showed up on Sunday on day and offer us $200 to finish it. We asked them several times to get away from us and leave us alone. Finally we called the police and filed a report. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wow! What a nightmare. Did you ever find out who they were or why they wanted that survey? Goodness.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So, I do not understand this point. I do agree with what you are saying. What I do not understand is that if my W went through a lengthy period of time where she believed things could be fixed, but she became dissapointed with not being able to find answers from professionals, to the point that she then no longer believes there is an answer, then why, when presented with a solution and very willing partner, is she not able to reflect back (after a period of time) and think, hey, this might work. If I am there and presenting her with a potential solution while showing that I am willing to put in a ton of extra work to get there, why can she not see the possibility that this could work for us? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Uhm… well, I’ll tell you how I would feel but I want you to take that with a huge grain of salt. I’m a pretty stubborn and tenacious person. It takes a long, long time for me to give up on something. But, when I finally get to the point that I am willing to walk away, that’s pretty much IT. I’m done. It’s over. I’ve invested all that I’m willing to invest in the process or solution. Past that point, the amount of energy it would take to get me re-involved is substantial because it’s so painful to go back and revisit all the pain and angst that got me to the point of giving up in the first place. That doesn’t mean it isn’t POSSIBLE, just that it’s really hard. But, honestly, that is really far away conjecture and may not have anything to do with your wife so be careful about too much projection.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yeah, I think it is a reaction after feeling incredibly guilty for a number of years because she felt she had changed and did not know "how to fix things," when she had na opportunity to shove off the guiltyness, she jumped at it.
<snip>
Well, if you were in my shoes and were being told for a long time that it was not your fault and nothing you have done and then come to be told it is ALL your fault and it will take you an extremely long time of managing your Ps and Qs before you are allowed to be seen as an acceptable M partner, would you not feel like you were massively fooled? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, that’s an interesting conjecture. It’s definitely frustrating, situations like this always are *hugs*. Hang in there. You’re making progress.

Mys

Hiya mys, feeling any better this morning? I hope the icky weather cleared up at least.

OK Guys,

I need some understanding here. I am going to go through this weekend and need help understanding what went on. What parts you might think are positive/negative. Right now I do not know how to feel, but am on the verge of feeling like I have lost her.

Saturday morning, we are laying in bed and my W had some reality show on TV. It was on HG TV and was the one where the group is revamping a mansion and in the end one of the people in the group will get the mansion. Anyway, there is a girl who was in charge of the group for this show, and she had a crush on one of the guys. It was an obviously mutual crush. However, the guy turned out to be pretty much a jerk. This girl wanted to go out with the other girls for dinner and this guy went crazy over it. He went so far as to actually try to hurt the effort and undermine her leadership of the group. He acted way childish. Now, my W made a comment about how she should run and not look back. At the end of the show, this girl got back with this guy and still thought he put in the most effort, even when out of one week, this guy did not even participate for three days because he was sulking. I made the comment, "What is wrong with that girl? She diserves what she gets for letting him walk all over her like that." I turned to my W to find her crying. I said, "Why are you crying?" She said, "I don't know." Then she said, "You act jealous like that guy." I said, "I understand and am ashamed for that, but I would not take it as far as that guy did, where he actually tried to hurt her efforts to be successful." My W said, "You want me to be vulnerable to you." I said, "In MC I meant this is a good way. I want us to be able to be mutually vulnerable in a physical and emotional way. I want us to get to a point where we are comfortable and trust each other enough to be vulnerable with each other." She is feeling like my saying this is actually saying "I wnat to control you!" Perhaps, I chose the wrong word for my EN list, but know I seem to be in trouble and have caused a hurdle with the word "vulnerable." My W just cried for a little bit longer and then went and took a shower. I got up and took our S to go get food for the three of us.

Later this day, I made a comment about one of our neighbors. The woman does not do much of anything around the house, including getting up with their 7 month old. The guy has to do everything, including getting up with the baby and cleaning the entire house and I mean everything. His W makes no bones about how he should be doing all of these things and shows this attitude in front of others. I was at this guys house to play cards with him and some other guys the night before and his W had made some comments like this. So I said to my W, "I do not know how X puts up with it. It seems unbearable." My W said, "Well, I suppose you would say, he is probably at least getting sex so it is bearable!" This was weird because my W does not usually bring the sex subject up. So I am thinking, hey maybe this is progress. I said, "Honey, I told you that if we had a good sex life, we would still be in MC from my POV because we have several areas of our R that need to be improved." She said, "I do not want to have sex. I have said this to you before. Do you understand!" I said, "Honey, this morning I felt like you opened up to me and were willing to trust me with your feelings emotionally. I think we may be making some progress." She said, "I know, you like to see me cry because I rarely do." I said, "I do not like to see you cry." She then walked away. I took a deep breath and tried very hard to keep my emotions from getting the better of me. I took Mys, advice and waited for her return. She came back into the room and I said, "Look honey, I understand that you do not feel like having sex right know. I do not want to push you to do something you do not want to do. However, being physically intimate with you is very important to me and is part of what will make me happy. Right know, I am not happy. We are going to have to work through this and deal with this issue." She said, "OK" and then started watching TV. Meanwhile I am crushed. I then asked one last question. I said, "Honey, there is one last thing I need to know and then I will let things drop. When you said,'I do not want to have sex.' Did you mean with me or with anybody?" She said, "with anybody."

Later in the evening, we had a costum party to go to. At the party, I was alone with my W at one point and said, "Honey, I love you more than anything. Thinking about our conversation earlier, I do not want to loose you." She said, "I am not getting into this now." I said, "I am not either, I just wanted to let you know just how much I love you." Then I let it be.

During this party, there was a neighbor girl who was beyond flirting with a neghbor guy. They were both married, but not to each other. A lot of the neighborhood has had suspicions about these too, yet this all of us were feeling embarassed by what was going on. Especially since for a lot of this their partners were around. Anyway, the entire neighborhood is now talking about these two. My W has said, "Some People make some pretty bad decisions." That was really all she had to say bout the situation. I felt bad for the H of the girl because I know him pretty well.

My W's mom is having some pretty major surgery coming up Nov. 30. My W is going to be with her mom throughout this. Also, my W has started to talk to her old friends and re-energize some old friendships. I take this as a sign that my W may be trying to be her old self again. I think this is good as long as she can not carry any baggage forward from our bad times and we can start fresh. I just do not know what to think or how to take her announcing she does not want to have sex. This scares me because it was not a "I do not want to have sex at this time in our R." It felt kind of permanent. Could this be that she is just lashing out because she feels this difficult issue fast approaching the point of possibly having to deal with it? Right now, I feel little hope based upon her statement. I know what Baba is going to say, but I find it hard to believe that deep down this is really how my W feels and will feel for the rest of our M.

I just do not know how to feel right now. I do not know what to do or how to react around my W. I get very sad when I am around her. I do try very hard not to show this hurt to my W all the time. Her words make me feel like we are done and that things will not get better on her end.

Please, I need to get you opinions and ideas about what you guys think.

Thanks,

EL

I think you need to back up a bit.

I know you want to take her statement about not wanting sex as a rejection of you, of your marriage, as doom for your marriage, and so on.

But it's not.

It's just a statement of where she is right now.

And it's a huge, HUGE, step forward that she made this statement to you. You need to stop and congratulate yourself big time, because in the past she's felt like she can't make such a statement to you about how she is without you trying to tell her how she's somehow wrong. So the fact that she was willing to try this time is a major testing-the-waters leap of faith for her that your changes are for real, and that she could simply tell you how she is and not get a storm of correction.

This really is a big step forward.

Now, you need to do your part, and take her statement for what it is, and not start piling all kinds of other stuff on it like you normally do. She said she doesn't want to have sex. That's it. She did not say anything about why she does not want to have sex. Jumping to conclusions will not serve you. You need to wait and give her time and show that it's safe for her to talk about why when she's ready and feels like she can successfully put the reasons into words.

One thing we do know is that the word "vulnerable" scares her, because she has said so more than once. We also know she feels like she has been hurt a lot by you, because she has said so. We also have the MB materials that identify LBs that kill love. From where I'm sitting, getting rid of the LBs is almost a certain win here for you, pretty much guaranteed to make the situation significantly better. Keep at it, but not just what you've been doing -- it's time to step it up to the next level.

I agree with MOS. Having her admit her feelings to you is a truthful place to start. If you do not know how she feels or cannot stand to "hear" how she really feels, then you won't get anywhere.

And from what she said you can tell how unhappy she really is in the marriage with you..

This would explain her moments of hostility toward you that slip out every day and her bitterness.

I would be bitter too if my whole life (in my mind) was suddenly and irreparibly and permanently (sp) ruined because I accidently got pregnant. I would be suicidal. Just thinking about it makes me feel depressed.

Now she maybe feels that she has a life "she is not happy with" that she never saw coming. She probably feels that she is TRAPPED IN THIS LIFE WITH THE KID AND YOU and that she has to "pretend to be happy all the time". She even has to "pretend to like sex".

This is a lot of pretending. Hard to contain the resentment she feels that seeps out here and there. There is no one to blame for this "ruined life" besides herself or you.

It will all come out one day that she feels her life is ruined and "over" and that she feels trapped.

Who would ever want sex again after that?

<small>[ November 01, 2004, 09:26 AM: Message edited by: baba2 ]</small>

MOS - What do you mean by "taking it to the next level." Would you mind letting me know in simple words?

Baba - It is currently hard for me to not try and put more weight on my W's words and just take them as a statement of what she is feeling right now. However, I feel you have jumped to a conclusion that may not be fair here.

In the beginning, I was very fearful of my W or my self possibly feeling like our lives were ruined because of us getting pregnant. Because of this fact, we both agreed to not jump into getting married because we wanted to both get married if we both wanted to. Therefore, two years after finding out we were pregnant, we got engaged. In my situation, one always fears that the other does not feel like you have ruined their life. I truly hope this is not how my W truly feels. I can see how she feels she has changed her life because of how I was reacting to some things and this she does blame me for. I am working on this. I pray that my situation is not hopeless. Remember, we were both in this situation in the beginning. I am in love with this woman as I have been truly from the moment I met her. I also have no doubts that she also was truly in love with me in the beginning.

I have been through so much hurt and frustration throughout my life. All I want is to have a happy M with the one woman I truly love.

EL

If you wife can finally admit that she feels trapped or bad because of what happened this is good and then you two have a chance at healing and changing your lives.

Until she can admit that:

1. Something is bugging her about her life

2. What exactly is bugging her about her life

You will not get far until she admits the truth of how she really feels.

I bet she will come out with the truth and I bet then you two will have a "good growth jump" in the right direction.

Something I forgot to add, was that I did thank my W on saturday morning for emotionally opening up to me. She did not seem to think she was and kind of blew my thanks off, but I wanted to make sure that at least she could feel I was actually receptive and thankful for what I percieved as a chance from her.

EL

Baba -

I really do share your thoughts and concerns. I am very worried that one day my W is going to just say, "I feel like you have trapped me." I keep trying to keep on track without assuming or deriving anything extra from what she says and listen to her exact words. This is really difficult, especially when looking back on recent MC conversations and my W has said that she feels like I have fooled her by acting one way and then changing after we moved in together. All of this points to what you are saying. I have flat out asked her if she feels trapped or that her life has been ruined. Of course, she always comes out and says, "No, I do not feel this way. I have no regrets. I love you and our S." I think she probably feels as though she would be an evil person if she said she felt like this. But, I am only guessing.

EL

EL, keep on helping her open up. One day she might open up so much she is sobbing in your arms about the ruined life.

1. People feel they HAVE to be a certain way in life.

2. Some feel that if they get pregnant they cannot ABORT A BABY or NOT get married.

3. People feel like society expects them to do certain things.

4. Later in life, people feel resentful at all the things they missed by pleasing society and doing what they think was the right thing.

Maybe she is trying to get some fun in her life like what she missed for those "unchosen" years of toil bearing and raising that baby with you. How much of that was fun for her??? For me, that type of childbearing childraising lifestyle would be bad, very bad. But that is just me. How much did she do this because she FELT SHE HAD NO CHOICE even though it appeared to you she was making a clear choice?.

I think you are right, she does not want to appear to be an evil person so therefore cannot admit much to herself.

But she obeyed and did what society told her was the right thing to do. NOT what you told her to do. She may have been influenced by you and that is where her bitterness comes in.

How is she able to tell who influenced her more, societies rules or your influence.

She is highly influenced by society as evidenced by her "even speaking at all" to those census takers, feeling bad in front of friends about being unmarried and pregnant, and other things you have said about her.

So, she may have not gone with what SHE really wanted at the time because what SHE wanted was unimportant. You, the kid, and what others thought was all important and she and her feelings was not important at all. Now, she probabaly cannot face any of that but you can maybe help her face it.

Are you OK with all that stuff you two went through?

Sounds like you are happy as pie that she became pregnant, moved around with you, is a SAHM, etc. All except for the little bit of sex (which is more than I get) you are pretty happy with the situation or are you?

Yeah, but Baba,

Could a situation as you are describing end good? I would tend to think that the larger percentage of these situations do not end good. This also saddens me very much. I am sad for our S and for me and for my W burdening these issues. I really do love her.

EL

It could end good if she comes out, admits she regrets some choices that were made, even blames you for some of the choices, bawls her heart out due to the pain of her ruined life.

I can see it happening. The life has been chosen but she can be healed from her resentment if it is retraced how back then she felt forced to make certain choices above other choices. That (how she chose ) has to be revisited it I think.

Did you tell her not to get an abortion or did she not want to get one? Who made that choice?

(I would RUN to get an abortion and no one could stop me if I had been in her situation)

Anyhow, crying and healing and facing the truth can almost always lead to uncovering dormant love for the spouse. In fact it is the only way.....

Do it soon before the chance is over....help her retrace what happened. Help her open up over the pain of her lost and ruined life (it is not really ruined but on some level, she feels it is)