Baba,

I won't lie to you, our situation was difficult for both of us. It changed our lives forever. However, I do not have any regrets. I love my S very much and he was the best thing that ever happened to me, next to my W of course. Sure there were times that I felt caught in the middle, but we found our footing and moved on.

You know, I was very cautious in the beginning to not force or pressure my W into doing anything she did not want to. I said I would have been supportive with any choice she would make with regards to her body and the baby. Although once over the shock, I wanted the baby deep down.

I can remember the first time I met my W's mom. We went to dinner and her mom said, "So, we just want you to know that you are not obligated in anyway to stick around. If you want to go, we will be fine raising the baby." I felt so bad for my W because, how awful is this to hear from your mom? I said, "I love W and she makes me the happiest person in the World. I can only pray that I am worthy of her." With that we moved on.

Even when I asked my W to marry me, two years after our S was born, I was ecstatic when she said "Yes." I did not automatically expect her to say "Yes" because we had a baby. I let her know this too, because I felt it was important for her to know this.

EL

i wonder how many of your wife's decisions were because she "did the right thing" as opposed to doing what "she wanted to do".

She needs to find this out. I know she did the right thing. But at what cost....what "inner" price did she have to pay here.

<small>[ November 01, 2004, 10:41 AM: Message edited by: baba2 ]</small>

What kind of lifestyle would your wife have chosen had the child not come along? What path was she walking that got temporarily interrupted by the child?

That question could be asked of anybody throughout their life.

Ya, know, many people get in the middle of their life (35 - 45) and start to have a "mid life" crisis because they realize the dreams they had as kids or young adults are not going to materialize. This is really a part of growing up. I mean, at times, everyone's life sucks. Big deal, learn to deal with it and move forward. How do these things get in people's way for a wonderful life?

I am not trying to minize anything, just put it into a "global" perspective. I love my W, and I hope she does not eventually flip out and run off because she feels she missed out on life or some aspect of it. By many people's standards, my W has a great life. There are a lot of people that comment about how she is so lucky. We are doing pretty well for ourselves at the moment and have a beautiful 4 year old boy. Our personal R is not good, but we are working on this.

I do not know if I should actually try to confront her on this subject, or let it come out naturally. Maybe talking about what I need to be happy is so unrelevent to her right now because she is unhappy, but is trying to put on the guise that everything is great. I know she thinks both sets of my parents judge her and think she trapped me. She has told me this before. I told her I did not think my parents felt this way and if they did then they were fools.

EL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What kind of lifestyle would your wife have chosen had the child not come along? What path was she walking that got temporarily interrupted by the child? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Lets see, she was in debt, but paying it off. She was working two jobs: one in the day as a manager of a retail store and one at night as a bartender. She worked all the time. She would hang out with her friends, mostly guy friends. She did not have the opportunity to go to college. When I apparently met her she was in an anti-guy mode due to a breakup 5 months or so before I met her. She was living with this last boyfriend, when she realized he was living off of her and cheating with many women. Except for the getting pregnant part, we started off taking things slowly. I had been divorced for about a year and was not looking for really a fling. My W swept me off my feet (mentally). We connected on so many different levels. I truly felt she was and is my solemate.

EL

By taking it to the next level, I mean really stop the LBs.

The frequency of telling her that her TFO are wrong somehow or that you want her to think or feel differently seems to be going down, but going down isn't sufficient. It's critical at this time that it never happen at all if you want your wife to continue to open to you.

Sounds like she was not all that passionate about a carreer or any path like that. So she gave up the little jobs. Big deal.

She is scarred from being cheated on before. This surprises me since then she should understand your (cheating) fears much better than she does.

Maybe next time she makes a hostile crack about you not trusting her, tell her she probably can remember how hurtful it was to be cheated on and how scarring it is and how those scars take a time to go away. I wonder why she cannot put herself in your place regarding jealousy and worrying about cheating.etc.

And again I am sorry to any mothers here on MB but anyone who has an unexpected pregnancy, decides to keep and raise the child, and then actually bears the child and raises it with the father has my total vote.

If I were in that situation, I would be much more upset. I am a controlling person and would "feel like" committing suicide if I could not immediately obtain an abortion for the "accident". I do not consider unplanned pregnancies (for me) blessings. I consider them a failure of Birth Control or failure of the people to use BC properly.

I am glad you like your child that was born. Not every child is a good child. Your W does not seem eager to create another one.....however.

MOS - I would be interested in knowing if you felt some of my communications over the weekend included LBs? I do not think they did, but I am open to your POV in hopes to "take it to the next level."

Thanks,

EL

Yes, Baba,

My W is not too interested in another child. She did not like being pregnant and definitely did not enjoy giving birth. I think she is scared about getting pregnant. One thing that is interesting is that she was told by doctors that as soon as she knew she was done having children, she must have her ovaries out due to the large amount of cancer in her family. I talked to her about this and she said, "I am not sure I am ready for this permanency yet." So what do you think I should be thinking? Just that she is being honest and does not really know what she wants? I would like another child, but not at the hurt or pain of my W. However, if my W decided that she would want another child, I cannot tell you how happy this would make me that we would have the chance to have another child, with all the proper things in place this time.

I do not know why she cannot put herself in my place with regards to the scarring from having been cheated on. She tells me she has been there and got over it. She says I need to realize she is not the other women in my life that have hurt me and it is not fair for her to have to "pay the price" for other women's mistakes. She has a point. I do love her very much and wish she could now see, that I am back to being the man she originally fell in love with.

EL

Perhaps she feels the sociatal pressure to "have to have a second child" to give the first one a little sibling.

I do not get the feeling she cares much about how YOU would feel about having another child....even though in a good marriage both partners should have a choice in their "family size". I know that even if you do want another baby she has the final say.

Can you imagine how painful it is to give birth? It would be like trying to pass a bowling ball out of an opening way too small. I do not know how women can stand it. I could NOT stand any part of pregnancy, birth, or raising the baby.

Women who do this (and do it more often than once) are amazingly brave to me. I do not want to bring myself knowingly any more pain than I already have in life to deal with. And pregnancy, birth, and childraising is elective, not mandatory.

So, what does your wife want to do in life besides raise children? Find out. Ask her. Try and get to know HER.

Baba,

You are so right! I thought men were the strong ones until I watched my W give birth. Then I told her right away, women are definitely the stronger sex. I have so much respect for women its unreal.

My W had talked about going to college, and I encouraged this thinking because she had felt that she never got a chance. She is definitely smart enough to ace anything she would end up taking in college. Unfortunately, I think the pressures of life ended up in such a way that when I talk to her about this she does not really share the same interest she used to. She really is into the wheather and watching the wheather channel and such. I think she would love to do one of those tornado chasing vacations.

I just cannot get the sick feeling in my stomach to go away. I am so concerned that we are not going to get better that I think this feeling gets in my way and causes me to LB by accident at times. I so wish a happy M for both of us (together by the way).

EL

Extremely Lost

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I just do not know how to feel right now. I do not know what to do or how to react around my W. I get very sad when I am around her. I do try very hard not to show this hurt to my W all the time. Her words make me feel like we are done and that things will not get better on her end.

Please, I need to get you opinions and ideas about what you guys think. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think things are going well and that you’re starting to get some of the conversations you were hoping for all along. I understand that the news is upsetting to you. I’d like you to try to prepare yourself to hear some bad news along the way. If things were working all right, you wouldn’t be here in the first place, right?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I turned to my W to find her crying. I said, "Why are you crying?" She said, "I don't know." Then she said, "You act jealous like that guy." I said, "I understand and am ashamed for that, but I would not take it as far as that guy did, where he actually tried to hurt her efforts to be successful." My W said, "You want me to be vulnerable to you." I said, "In MC I meant this is a good way. I want us to be able to be mutually vulnerable in a physical and emotional way. I want us to get to a point where we are comfortable and trust each other enough to be vulnerable with each other." She is feeling like my saying this is actually saying "I wnat to control you!" </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Next time, instead of reasserting what you said, perhaps you can ask her why being vulnerable bothers her so much. What about it feels controlling to her?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I would like another child, but not at the hurt or pain of my W. However, if my W decided that she would want another child, I cannot tell you how happy this would make me that we would have the chance to have another child, with all the proper things in place this time. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">On a scale of 1-10 how worried would you say she is about another unwanted pregnancy? This might be a large part of the issue between you. Maybe she’s concerned that your method of bc will fail… but abstinence is 100% effective.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> thing that is interesting is that she was told by doctors that as soon as she knew she was done having children, she must have her ovaries out due to the large amount of cancer in her family. I talked to her about this and she said, "I am not sure I am ready for this permanency yet." So what do you think I should be thinking? Just that she is being honest and does not really know what she wants? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh wow, Extremely Lost. I have to say… better that you said this here and not at home because … let me tell you what.. this made steam come out of my ears.

Let me just give you a friendly little female perspective. Now, I don’t want children. Actually, biologically I can’t have them, either – but that’s beside the point. So, even though I have all these parts that I don’t happen to be ‘using’ in any productive way, they are still a part of me.

Ovaries are the female sex organs analogous to your testicles. Now, if I were to suggest that, just because you’re done having kids, why don’t you go get yourself castrated, I’m sure you wouldn’t enthusiastically jump on this idea. And, yes, I understand this has to do with a medical reason for her to preemptively improve her chances of avoiding cancer. That does not mean it’s an easy decision.

My advice to you, is to take her statement as a fairly natural expression of someone who has *NOT* had cancer yet, is still pretty young and ostensibly in good health, who is in absolutely no hurry to mutilate her body permanently. It might not have anything to do with having children at all.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "Look honey, I understand that you do not feel like having sex right know. I do not want to push you to do something you do not want to do. However, being physically intimate with you is very important to me and is part of what will make me happy. Right know, I am not happy. We are going to have to work through this and deal with this issue." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You did pretty good here. Let’s fine tune this. Your last statement: “We are going to have to work through this and deal with this issue.” was not a request. It was a nicely stated demand, but a demand all the same. When you make requests, always make it in the form of a question. You’re not TELLING her what she’s going to do; you’re asking her to do something and she has the option of saying “Yes, I will.” or “No, I won’t.” without implied punishment or retribution. You’re getting there, the rest of it was right on.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think this is good as long as she can not carry any baggage forward from our bad times and we can start fresh. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don’t understand about what you mean about being her old self and carrying baggage. More specifically, what would be bad (or worse) about her being her old self carrying baggage and being her .. uh… current self and carrying baggage? Or, were you saying the baggage was the problem? I’m confused. Can you clarify?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Could this be that she is just lashing out because she feels this difficult issue fast approaching the point of possibly having to deal with it? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I didn’t get the context (voice, body language, inflection, etc) of when she said this but I’m not sure it had to be lashing out. She could just be telling you that she doesn’t desire sex. But, didn’t we all know that all ready? This isn’t new news .. but it’s great that she can actually ‘talk about it’ enough to say it to you. It’s better than guessing.

Remember, you have to go through conflict. The conflict will be that she doesn’t want to have sex. This discussion is a good sign. It means that she’s peeking out of withdrawal long enough to engage some conflict with you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I find it hard to believe that deep down this is really how my W feels and will feel for the rest of our M. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think it’s just to early to tell, Extremely Lost.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I just cannot get the sick feeling in my stomach to go away. I am so concerned that we are not going to get better that I think this feeling gets in my way and causes me to LB by accident at times. I so wish a happy M for both of us (together by the way). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe you should try to do what LFC did and decide that you’re not going to worry about whether or not things are ‘working’ for a period of time? Stop carrying it around? Set a date in the future when you can evaluate the changes over time. This is like trying to loose weight. You can weigh yourself every hour on the hour but you’re unlikely to see much change. What makes more sense is to weigh yourself weekly or biweekly. Do it often enough to stay on track but not so constantly that you wear yourself into the ground worrying about it. What do you think?

Mys

Hello Mys,

I am glad to hear from you. I am just emotionally in turmoil right now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think things are going well and that you’re starting to get some of the conversations you were hoping for all along. I understand that the news is upsetting to you. I’d like you to try to prepare yourself to hear some bad news along the way. If things were working all right, you wouldn’t be here in the first place, right?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am glad to hear that your take is that things seem to be going well. I gotta tell you, as the one going through this, it is not easy to see things are going in a good direction. I feel like my heart is ripped out and then eaten.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Next time, instead of reasserting what you said, perhaps you can ask her why being vulnerable bothers her so much. What about it feels controlling to her?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She said that just the fact that I want her to be vulnerable to me is waht makes her feel as though I am saying "I want to control you!" She said this when I first read the beginning of my list in MC.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">On a scale of 1-10 how worried would you say she is about another unwanted pregnancy? This might be a large part of the issue between you. Maybe she’s concerned that your method of bc will fail… but abstinence is 100% effective.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would say like a 9 or 10. She was very concerned after our S was born. Now she just makes comments that she does not want to have another baby. I will say that I offered in April, that if it was a major concern for her, I would have an operation. She told me, not yet because that would be perminent.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Oh wow, Extremely Lost. I have to say… better that you said this here and not at home because … let me tell you what.. this made steam come out of my ears.

Let me just give you a friendly little female perspective. Now, I don’t want children. Actually, biologically I can’t have them, either – but that’s beside the point. So, even though I have all these parts that I don’t happen to be ‘using’ in any productive way, they are still a part of me.

Ovaries are the female sex organs analogous to your testicles. Now, if I were to suggest that, just because you’re done having kids, why don’t you go get yourself castrated, I’m sure you wouldn’t enthusiastically jump on this idea. And, yes, I understand this has to do with a medical reason for her to preemptively improve her chances of avoiding cancer. That does not mean it’s an easy decision.

My advice to you, is to take her statement as a fairly natural expression of someone who has *NOT* had cancer yet, is still pretty young and ostensibly in good health, who is in absolutely no hurry to mutilate her body permanently. It might not have anything to do with having children at all.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you are taking this wrong. You need to understand that her Great Grandmother on her mom's side, her Grandmother on her mom's side and her mom all have had breast cancer. They have tested for the breast cancer gene and all this. Believe me I am more freaked out than my W. I cannot believe it, but it is true. My W has said, "I have known all along that I would eventually have my breasts removed." I cannot believe this is as acceptable to her as she is saying. It freaks me out that this is so OK with her and her sister and mom. Now, the doctors have told her that she need to get her ovaries out as soon as she is done with having babies. She does not have a problem with this and is absolutely fine about it. I do not get it, but she really is fine about it. Believe me, I do not understand it, but she has said she is fine with it and can't wait to get this stuff done. I do not understand because, like you said, this is like giving up your womanhood. Anyway, the point of my bringing this up was not to be cruel, it was to ask, what you thought because she was told things are serious enough that she should have her ovaries out immediately after she is done having children. She said, "I do not know if I am done." But, everything else she says to me or others indicates she would never get pregnant again.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You did pretty good here. Let’s fine tune this. Your last statement: “We are going to have to work through this and deal with this issue.” was not a request. It was a nicely stated demand, but a demand all the same. When you make requests, always make it in the form of a question. You’re not TELLING her what she’s going to do; you’re asking her to do something and she has the option of saying “Yes, I will.” or “No, I won’t.” without implied punishment or retribution. You’re getting there, the rest of it was right on.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Fine. How would you recommend I rephrase this to "ask" the question? I see your point, but I do not understand how to do this with what I was trying to say. You see, I was trying to be unwaivering with regards to the fact that we will have to deal with this issue if we are both ever to be happy in this M.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I don’t understand about what you mean about being her old self and carrying baggage. More specifically, what would be bad (or worse) about her being her old self carrying baggage and being her .. uh… current self and carrying baggage? Or, were you saying the baggage was the problem? I’m confused. Can you clarify?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess I am trying to say that I wish my W could not have a "tainted" view of me moving forward. Right now I feel like a man that she meets out in the World, is starting at a much better place in her mind than I am with respect to the potential opportunity for her to fall head over heels in love.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I didn’t get the context (voice, body language, inflection, etc) of when she said this but I’m not sure it had to be lashing out. She could just be telling you that she doesn’t desire sex. But, didn’t we all know that all ready? This isn’t new news .. but it’s great that she can actually ‘talk about it’ enough to say it to you. It’s better than guessing.

Remember, you have to go through conflict. The conflict will be that she doesn’t want to have sex. This discussion is a good sign. It means that she’s peeking out of withdrawal long enough to engage some conflict with you.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It just really hurt that she said, "I do not want to have sex! I have said this before. Why can't you understand?" Why can't she understand that this is completely unacceptable for me? I certainly have told her this numerous times. Now, I see your point about her poking her head out and engaging in conlfict. She has brought up all of these little discussions. You know I have not been - deliberately. Just like I asked you on Friday if I should wait until MC. So, she is obviously having a battle going on inside her that forces this discussion out once in a while in short bursts. I suppose it is good that she is atleast saying something, but I can see she is in conflict. For one, I never brought up anything about sex, yet my W seems to have it on her mind. She also seems to be becoming slightly more emotional in front of me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Maybe you should try to do what LFC did and decide that you’re not going to worry about whether or not things are ‘working’ for a period of time? Stop carrying it around? Set a date in the future when you can evaluate the changes over time. This is like trying to loose weight. You can weigh yourself every hour on the hour but you’re unlikely to see much change. What makes more sense is to weigh yourself weekly or biweekly. Do it often enough to stay on track but not so constantly that you wear yourself into the ground worrying about it. What do you think?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Easier said than done. I eat, sleep and breath our situation right now. It is effecting everything in my life, because it is my entire life.

Thanks Mys,

EL

Extremely Lost

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am glad to hear from you. I am just emotionally in turmoil right now. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know. I’m sorry.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am glad to hear that your take is that things seem to be going well. I gotta tell you, as the one going through this, it is not easy to see things are going in a good direction. I feel like my heart is ripped out and then eaten. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">*sighs* I’m really sorry this is hard for you. It’s unfortunate that you keep hearing “conflict is a GOOD thing” because it’s also going to be painful. You’re going to have to really face in NEW AND DIFFERENT WAYS some thoughts and things you are really strongly going to disagree with. But, you have to do this because if you don’t deal with it then it will just sit quietly there causing damage.

How can we help you prepare yourself for this?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She said that just the fact that I want her to be vulnerable to me is waht makes her feel as though I am saying "I want to control you!" She said this when I first read the beginning of my list in MC. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, ok. But, what does being ‘vulnerable’ really mean. I mean, I’ve had sex before and I’ve never really felt vulnerable about it. At least that’s not really an emotion that comes to a descriptive mind.

If I can’t ask her, I’ll ask you. What the heck do you mean by being ‘vulnerable’ anyway?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I would say like a 9 or 10. She was very concerned after our S was born. Now she just makes comments that she does not want to have another baby. I will say that I offered in April, that if it was a major concern for her, I would have an operation. She told me, not yet because that would be perminent. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wow, you two need to talk about this. Maybe you need to use 2 forms of birth control or something to assure her that she won’t get pregnant. I can certainly understand her reticence. Let’s assume (and I really mean assume because I have no idea what you believe) that abortion is not a choice that either of you would be comfortable with, she might be very uncomfortable with sexual activity because she’s afraid of an unintended pregnancy. Abstinence as a form of birth control is pretty reasonable. I don’t know if you used any birth control the last time she got pregnant. She might have good reason to be scared. It’s particularly a problem if she’s worried about the state of your marriage. A child right now would be a difficult accommodation.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think you are taking this wrong.
<snip>
She said, "I do not know if I am done." But, everything else she says to me or others indicates she would never get pregnant again. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh. My apologies, I did misunderstand.

Wow. Well, good for her for that strong attitude. I couldn’t do it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Fine. How would you recommend I rephrase this to "ask" the question? I see your point, but I do not understand how to do this with what I was trying to say. You see, I was trying to be unwaivering with regards to the fact that we will have to deal with this issue if we are both ever to be happy in this M. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, you got that across well enough with the “However, being physically intimate with you is very important to me and is part of what will make me happy. Right know, I am not happy.” part of the discussion. *thumbs up, by the way* So, turn your sentence into a question. “Can we work together to solve this issue?”

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I guess I am trying to say that I wish my W could not have a "tainted" view of me moving forward. Right now I feel like a man that she meets out in the World, is starting at a much better place in her mind than I am with respect to the potential opportunity for her to fall head over heels in love. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, I see. Yeah, that is a legitimate fear but she’s going back to support her mother through surgery, right? Do you consider that to be a ‘dangerous’ activity – infidelity wise?

What are you doing about your feelings?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It just really hurt that she said, "I do not want to have sex! I have said this before. Why can't you understand?" Why can't she understand that this is completely unacceptable for me? I certainly have told her this numerous times. Now, I see your point about her poking her head out and engaging in conlfict. She has brought up all of these little discussions. You know I have not been - deliberately. Just like I asked you on Friday if I should wait until MC. So, she is obviously having a battle going on inside her that forces this discussion out once in a while in short bursts. I suppose it is good that she is atleast saying something, but I can see she is in conflict. For one, I never brought up anything about sex, yet my W seems to have it on her mind. She also seems to be becoming slightly more emotional in front of me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know! Here you were worried that she wasn’t processing what you said and she was just forgetting about it! Now, you have concrete evidence that she didn’t forget and you’re complaining. My goodness! *playful nudge* Quit yer belly achin!

And, I think she does understand that it’s unacceptable to you. That’s not the point of her expression. You’re not trying to argue with her, you’re trying to build agreement. That means she needs to be able to say her side even if you don’t like it. That she is able to stand up to you and express that completely contrary opinion without backing down (and spontaneously) is a GOOD sign because you’re going to have to acknowledge those contrary opinions in order to deal with them. It’s ugly, but it’s true.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Easier said than done. I eat, sleep and breath our situation right now. It is effecting everything in my life, because it is my entire life. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeesh. Nothing like a little pressure. Extremely Lost, you’ve got to get a broader perspective here or you’re going to burn yourself out. I really mean it. Quit solving this every day. Let the process work and check on it periodically. You’re going to drive yourself crazy.

Mys

Hiya EL.

just poking my head in to give you encouragement. Look at all the tough convos you've had without jumping off the cliff or shooting yourself in the foot too bad! Yay!

a moment of my perspective... sounds like your W has a lot working against her as far as comfort with sex, the least of which is your relational issues.

So it sounds like.. in summary... that she had an uninteneded pregnancy which turned her life in a completely different direction. Had a difficult pregnancy and delivery. Has significant woman's health concerns re: various cancer risks. And struggles with non-woman health issues like headaches/back etc. stuff. On top of which you add your current Marital climate and history. It is no suprise, to me, that she isn't interested in sex.

So it is good you are beginning to have conversations so that she can begin to discover for herself and communicate her barriers and boundaries re: sex. Note: it is not your job to diagnose and fix those things. It is your job to encourage her to do those things and to provide any necessary support and love during that process. (just in case you were thinking about handing her a list of her issues with an attached list of your plans for how she should fix herself. Not a good plan <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> )

hang in there - you're making progress.

lfc

Hello Mys,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I know. I’m sorry. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for your support.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> *sighs* I’m really sorry this is hard for you. It’s unfortunate that you keep hearing “conflict is a GOOD thing” because it’s also going to be painful. You’re going to have to really face in NEW AND DIFFERENT WAYS some thoughts and things you are really strongly going to disagree with. But, you have to do this because if you don’t deal with it then it will just sit quietly there causing damage.

How can we help you prepare yourself for this?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do not know how best to prepare for this, especially now that I am finding out that things are popping up at what seem like random intervals from my W. I do take solice in the fact that she is atleast talking about things without my having prompted the discussion. However, the things she says are tending to make me feel very insecure and I find myself in my own internal battle with some of my past trust issues that hurt us before. For example, my W says "I do not want to have sex," yet we go to the party on Saturday night and she is a natural flirt. This makes me think she is already looking for something she percieve as "can only be better than me." Now I know I am adding meaning to things that she said and it is not fair. This is the battle I have going on inside of me. I know I need to re-think how I would like the MC session (now on Thursday morning) to go. I would like some help from you on honing what might be good directions, because I have some new ideas for this. I will ask you some questions later on this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yeah, ok. But, what does being ‘vulnerable’ really mean. I mean, I’ve had sex before and I’ve never really felt vulnerable about it. At least that’s not really an emotion that comes to a descriptive mind.

If I can’t ask her, I’ll ask you. What the heck do you mean by being ‘vulnerable’ anyway?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't you think that having sex with a person and being that close, being naked (or exposed) is putting yourself in a vulnerable position? You are opening yourself up to an ultimate type of trust of that person.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Wow, you two need to talk about this. Maybe you need to use 2 forms of birth control or something to assure her that she won’t get pregnant. I can certainly understand her reticence. Let’s assume (and I really mean assume because I have no idea what you believe) that abortion is not a choice that either of you would be comfortable with, she might be very uncomfortable with sexual activity because she’s afraid of an unintended pregnancy. Abstinence as a form of birth control is pretty reasonable. I don’t know if you used any birth control the last time she got pregnant. She might have good reason to be scared. It’s particularly a problem if she’s worried about the state of your marriage. A child right now would be a difficult accommodation.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, she was on the pill when our S was concieved. We started to use condoms after our S was born because she could not be on the pill and breast feed. Later, she got a 5 year IUD that was supposed to be 99.9% effective. Well, one woman in our neighborhood got pregnant a year ago with this IUD. So, I am sure her confidence is not very high right now with respects to birth control. Remember, I had said to her in April that I would be willing to have the operation if it made her feel more comfortable. She said, "Thank you, I appreciate that, but it is perminent and I am not sure. Lets wait a few more years and then you can do that." Also a doctor has now told her that she has to get her ovaries out imeediately following her decision to not have any more children. She has said, "I am not ready to do this yet because I am not sure about more children." However, every time she talks to anybody (friends or family) she says how she will not have anymore children.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Oh. My apologies, I did misunderstand.

Wow. Well, good for her for that strong attitude. I couldn’t do it.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Her attitude is so strong on this, that I am not sure I am really buying into it, but she has always tried to keep up a tough facade. This is where I think we have another issue that may need to be tackled. She does not tend to let anyone truly inside. She has said, more than once, "I had to learn at a young age that I could not depend on anyone." This way of getting through life tends to be a real romantic killer.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yeah, you got that across well enough with the “However, being physically intimate with you is very important to me and is part of what will make me happy. Right know, I am not happy.” part of the discussion. *thumbs up, by the way* So, turn your sentence into a question. “Can we work together to solve this issue?”
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Got it! You make it sound so easy to come up with the right phrasing. Thanks. How about lending me your brain when these random comments from her hit me in the back of the head?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Oh, I see. Yeah, that is a legitimate fear but she’s going back to support her mother through surgery, right? Do you consider that to be a ‘dangerous’ activity – infidelity wise?

What are you doing about your feelings?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I guess any time a spouse is away from home there is opportunity, by the purest definition of it. Trust is a two way street. There needs to be a trustworthy person diserving of your trust, which I believe she is. I also need to have the self confidence that if she were going to rip my heart out, that I would be fine, eventually. I am working on this last part.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I know! Here you were worried that she wasn’t processing what you said and she was just forgetting about it! Now, you have concrete evidence that she didn’t forget and you’re complaining. My goodness! *playful nudge* Quit yer belly achin!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, OK. Point taken. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And, I think she does understand that it’s unacceptable to you. That’s not the point of her expression. You’re not trying to argue with her, you’re trying to build agreement. That means she needs to be able to say her side even if you don’t like it. That she is able to stand up to you and express that completely contrary opinion without backing down (and spontaneously) is a GOOD sign because you’re going to have to acknowledge those contrary opinions in order to deal with them. It’s ugly, but it’s true.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How is it best to acknowledge something that you otherwise completely disagree with to the point that you almost want to vomit? How do you do this, while getting your point across and not coming off like you are argumentitive or disagreeing?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeesh. Nothing like a little pressure. Extremely Lost, you’ve got to get a broader perspective here or you’re going to burn yourself out. I really mean it. Quit solving this every day. Let the process work and check on it periodically. You’re going to drive yourself crazy.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ya know, I am beyond burned out. I need our M back now. The way I feel inside right now can be described as metal on metal without any lubrication.

Thanks for all your help,

EL

LFC,

Thanks for the encouragement and positive thoughts. When I read how you listed things out it makes me wonder if we will ever get through this. Even if we do, will we be collecting social security by then (if it is available). <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Thanks,

EL

Extremely Lost

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I do not know how best to prepare for this, especially now that I am finding out that things are popping up at what seem like random intervals from my W. I do take solice in the fact that she is atleast talking about things without my having prompted the discussion. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, to be fair, it probably feels the same way to her when you bring things up. Neither of you is in the other one’s head so when one of you is ‘moved’ to talk about this stuff it’s going to come as a surprise. At some point, it would be great if you could SCHEDULE these talks so you both can come prepared and ready. But, you’re just not there yet.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> However, the things she says are tending to make me feel very insecure and I find myself in my own internal battle with some of my past trust issues that hurt us before. For example, my W says "I do not want to have sex," yet we go to the party on Saturday night and she is a natural flirt. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A natural flirt? Due to your past trust issues, is it possible that you consider relatively normal, friendly behavior flirtatious (smiling, laughing, eye contact, playful winks or banter)? Or, is she making obvious sexual overtures to other men (hugs, lap sitting, sexual comments)?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Now I know I am adding meaning to things that she said and it is not fair. This is the battle I have going on inside of me. I know I need to re-think how I would like the MC session (now on Thursday morning) to go. I would like some help from you on honing what might be good directions, because I have some new ideas for this. I will ask you some questions later on this. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, she did say she didn’t want sex with anyone (as opposed to it being about you) so it’s likely she’s not looking for sex elsewhere.

As for Thursday, I’d say it’s a toss up between stopping and discussing your SF need or moving on the rest of your list. I think you’d be better off to go ahead and move on to the rest of your list. The only draw back to that is it might defect attention away from SF.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Don't you think that having sex with a person and being that close, being naked (or exposed) is putting yourself in a vulnerable position? You are opening yourself up to an ultimate type of trust of that person. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Uhm. Well, I suppose. Vulnerable isn’t the word that comes to my mind, actually. I understand about it being a very trusting situation. I’m just trying to puzzle through what vulnerability has to do with control and also what are some other words you can use and ways you can communicate the same or a similar thing. I just don’t see general, loving sex being about control and I’m trying to get a handle on it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yeah, she was on the pill when our S was concieved. We started to use condoms after our S was born because she could not be on the pill and breast feed. Later, she got a 5 year IUD that was supposed to be 99.9% effective. Well, one woman in our neighborhood got pregnant a year ago with this IUD. So, I am sure her confidence is not very high right now with respects to birth control. Remember, I had said to her in April that I would be willing to have the operation if it made her feel more comfortable. She said, "Thank you, I appreciate that, but it is perminent and I am not sure. Lets wait a few more years and then you can do that." Also a doctor has now told her that she has to get her ovaries out imeediately following her decision to not have any more children. She has said, "I am not ready to do this yet because I am not sure about more children." However, every time she talks to anybody (friends or family) she says how she will not have anymore children. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yikes. Ok, this is going to be a big issue. I really think she is NOT going to relax until you two find some agreement on birth control. Maybe 2 forms would make her feel better? You’re going to have to ask these questions and acknowledge her very real (and very valid) fears about this. If she’s very concerned about avoiding pregnancy, that is going to make a very real barrier to fixing this issue.

I can see her reticence for doing something permanent. You know, when we got married, we both knew that we never wanted to have children. I STILL made him wait for many, many years (like 10) until he did something permanent about it. It’s not because I thought I’d change my mind or that he would change his mind.. well, ok, that’s not true. I knew I wouldn’t change my mind but I wanted to make sure “We” would make it and if he wasn’t with me, I wanted him to have a chance to change later in life. So, part of it was because we did go through some tougher times trying to get our marital act together. (Yeah, I know, that doesn’t make you feel better, I’m sure.) Also, I was squeamish about the procedure, itself. There are risks to every procedure and even though that one is pretty straightforward, I didn’t want to potentially loose our sex life. So, just be aware that there may be many other reasons she doesn’t want permanency. For one thing, you’ve expressed that you’d like to have more children if it works out. That ALONE, would stop me from agreeing to anything permanent. Not only did we both have to vehemently NOT want children.. he still had to wait 10 years till I was absolutely comfortable with it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Her attitude is so strong on this, that I am not sure I am really buying into it, but she has always tried to keep up a tough facade. This is where I think we have another issue that may need to be tackled. She does not tend to let anyone truly inside. She has said, more than once, "I had to learn at a young age that I could not depend on anyone." This way of getting through life tends to be a real romantic killer. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh? Talk to me about the dependence/romantic link. I don’t see dependence as particularly romantic. I am thinking this might be like the vulnerability/sex issue. It might be more about how you describe what you’re seeking than what you’re actually looking for. If I heard “I want you to depend on me.” I’d also think “control.” So, tell me about what kind of dependence you’re looking for. It all ready seems to me that she’s pretty dependent on you – financially, at least.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Got it! You make it sound so easy to come up with the right phrasing. Thanks. How about lending me your brain when these random comments from her hit me in the back of the head? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Look. I have one half of one brain cell left after all this moving. And, it’s recently applied for a passport. So… I just don’t think I can offer that. *winks* *playful nudge*

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, I guess any time a spouse is away from home there is opportunity, by the purest definition of it. Trust is a two way street. There needs to be a trustworthy person diserving of your trust, which I believe she is. I also need to have the self confidence that if she were going to rip my heart out, that I would be fine, eventually. I am working on this last part. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, ok. I was thinking more about learning a healthy way to manage this issue. For example, can you think of one (1) thoughtful request you can make during the time she’s gone to reassure you? Then, can you MAKE that (1) request REALLY WORK and actually REASSURE you? For example, we always talk on the phone almost every day when we’re not together. There are very few exceptions.

Just remember it’s a request that means if she says “No, I don’t think so.” then you walk away from it without assigning any DJ’s to her motives or engaging in any punitive behavior (no sulking, arguing, etc.)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> How is it best to acknowledge something that you otherwise completely disagree with to the point that you almost want to vomit? How do you do this, while getting your point across and not coming off like you are argumentitive or disagreeing? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, first you realize that you both have very different T/F/O on an issue and that does not mean it’s unsolvable. How much is your ‘wanting to vomit’ because you’re afraid the issue won’t be resolved to your satisfaction? If you knew that she could feel how she feels and you can STILL build agreement, would it become less important that she T/F/O the same as you do?

You state your point ONCE. If you stated yours first then she states hers, you bite your tongue, take a long slow breath, count to 10 backwards in German or do whatever you have to do to keep yourself from repeating what you said first. You take your opinions as your starting point not as your compromise point. Realize you are GOING to have to consider options that aren’t your 100% ideal.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Ya know, I am beyond burned out. I need our M back now. The way I feel inside right now can be described as metal on metal without any lubrication. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">*shakes her head* Ick! Well, now isn’t an option, so take some steps to unwind yourself. Seriously. You’re just not helping anyone by burning yourself out.

Mys

If I gained 90 lbs I would never want sex again. Pregnancy (to me) is heinous. EL how could you ever even "think" of having her bear another child for you?

She is petite (or was) for goodness sakes! The next baby could have her wearing diapers for the rest of her life because of permanent incontinence!. Be logical like an engineer. A petite woman is almost too small to carry a baby without major damage....look at the dimentions man.

Why would you want to put her through this kind of ordeal under ANY circumstances?

I feel like you don't "really" understand her. You don't really accept what she has to say (because you don't want to) and you certainly don't know what it is like to completely ruin your body permanently for a baby you never ever wanted in the first place.

If I got pregnant (it would be a real accident since I have a tubal ligation) my H would insist on an abortion to protect my precious body and my life. He would not ask that I have the baby. He would push for abortion unless I insisted on ruining my body for a baby I did not want. I would RUN to get an abortion. (If they were still legal....hmm.) We have actually discussed this.

He said: "I would never want to put you through that, if an accident happened I would bring you for the abortion immediately".

Yet you are holding the possibility open that she might relent and bear you another child?????

Oh man. If I were her, I would hate you for not protecting me from that ordeal in the first place and for "actually holding open the possibility" of having her have a second baby some day.

I would not want to put a DOG thru what your wife went thru. And to think of doing it a second time???? It is heinous and cruel to want to put the love of your life through that torture.

Don't men care about women? Or thier pain? Or protecting thier precious wives bodies? Or anything?

If you really cared about her you would insist she NEVER go through that ever ever again. And express how sorry you are that she had to ruin her precious body the first time! And believe her when she says she does not want sex.

She is still having sex with you though she does not want it! She is listening to you ask for sex and to offer oral that she does not want. She sacrificed her whole precious body to carry, have and raise a baby for you she never wanted.

I would be mad as HELL!

Good Morning Mys,

I have to type this twice because this site just had some type of issue about 1 minute away from my posting to you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Anyway, Last night I got home, cleaned up a fair amount of the house. My W was relaxing. I played with my son for a while and put him to bed. I did make sure to acknowledge my W for the things she did during the day, like laundry and some cleaning. I also thanked her last night for being such a good person and partner. I mentioned that we would not be where we are today if it was not for all the things she does. She said, "Thank you honey." This is actually out of the norm because every compliment I have EVER tried to give her met with a plane "Thank You."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, to be fair, it probably feels the same way to her when you bring things up. Neither of you is in the other one’s head so when one of you is ‘moved’ to talk about this stuff it’s going to come as a surprise. At some point, it would be great if you could SCHEDULE these talks so you both can come prepared and ready. But, you’re just not there yet.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is a very good and valid point. I also wish we could be at a point where we are comfortable enough to be able to schedule times that we could discuss difficult issues. I look forward to these times.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> A natural flirt? Due to your past trust issues, is it possible that you consider relatively normal, friendly behavior flirtatious (smiling, laughing, eye contact, playful winks or banter)? Or, is she making obvious sexual overtures to other men (hugs, lap sitting, sexual comments)?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right again, scary how you know me so well. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> She did the things that you labled as "relatively normal" behavior. The thing that causes me grief is that she does not normally act like this with me at home (smiling, laughing, eye contact, playful winks, or banter).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, she did say she didn’t want sex with anyone (as opposed to it being about you) so it’s likely she’s not looking for sex elsewhere.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I hope you are right.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> As for Thursday, I’d say it’s a toss up between stopping and discussing your SF need or moving on the rest of your list. I think you’d be better off to go ahead and move on to the rest of your list. The only draw back to that is it might defect attention away from SF.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I think the MC session could go two ways. First, as you suggest, I could go through my ENs breifly stating my first EN again. However, Baba brought up an interesting point about how my W could feel trapped due to the whole situation. Do you think it is a good idea or a REALLY REALLY bad idea to try and bring this up and get an understanding from my W about this?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Uhm. Well, I suppose. Vulnerable isn’t the word that comes to my mind, actually. I understand about it being a very trusting situation. I’m just trying to puzzle through what vulnerability has to do with control and also what are some other words you can use and ways you can communicate the same or a similar thing. I just don’t see general, loving sex being about control and I’m trying to get a handle on it.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, I do tend to try to explain things and end up using words that hurt what I am trying to get across. I have to say that sex is not about control for me. My W said that when I read my first EN her first feelings were that I wanted to control her. I guess my saying that I would like us to feel we can be comfortable and feel safe enough to be vulnerable with each other says to her that I want her to be vulnerable to me and this spells CONTROL to her. What I truly mean is that I think two people being physically intimate with each other is one of the ultimate ways a person can give themselves to someone. It is this incredible gift of one's self physically that I cherish and would always cherish. It is also her respecting and understanding that I am not a dog in heat; but, a man wishing to give to her that same gift that I wish for.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yikes. Ok, this is going to be a big issue. I really think she is NOT going to relax until you two find some agreement on birth control. Maybe 2 forms would make her feel better? You’re going to have to ask these questions and acknowledge her very real (and very valid) fears about this. If she’s very concerned about avoiding pregnancy, that is going to make a very real barrier to fixing this issue.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right. This is going to be a big issue for us. I do not think it is an issue of birth control as much as the idea of getting pregnant again. You see, my W is a very intelligent woman who I believe understands that birth control is something physical that you can choose and double up on if you want. I do not think it is an issue of what types of birth control to use. I also think that it probably is not the right issue to try and tackle with my W right now. If I started to talk about issues og getting pregnant and birth control I think she may develop the opinion that I think we have moved to a point right before we are having sex and this would be presumptuous of me. It would be putting the cart before the horse and she may feel like I have just ignored or stepped on her feelings or raised issues. What do you think?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I can see her reticence for doing something permanent. You know, when we got married, we both knew that we never wanted to have children. I STILL made him wait for many, many years (like 10) until he did something permanent about it. It’s not because I thought I’d change my mind or that he would change his mind.. well, ok, that’s not true. I knew I wouldn’t change my mind but I wanted to make sure “We” would make it and if he wasn’t with me, I wanted him to have a chance to change later in life. So, part of it was because we did go through some tougher times trying to get our marital act together. (Yeah, I know, that doesn’t make you feel better, I’m sure.) Also, I was squeamish about the procedure, itself. There are risks to every procedure and even though that one is pretty straightforward, I didn’t want to potentially loose our sex life. So, just be aware that there may be many other reasons she doesn’t want permanency. For one thing, you’ve expressed that you’d like to have more children if it works out. That ALONE, would stop me from agreeing to anything permanent. Not only did we both have to vehemently NOT want children.. he still had to wait 10 years till I was absolutely comfortable with it.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for this uneasy to hear, but very real perspective. Until you wrote this, I had not thought of it like this before. Thanks.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Oh? Talk to me about the dependence/romantic link. I don’t see dependence as particularly romantic. I am thinking this might be like the vulnerability/sex issue. It might be more about how you describe what you’re seeking than what you’re actually looking for. If I heard “I want you to depend on me.” I’d also think “control.” So, tell me about what kind of dependence you’re looking for. It all ready seems to me that she’s pretty dependent on you – financially, at least.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I believe my W was feeling a bit financially dependent upon me and probably still does. We had one bank account which she ended up being in charge of. She wanted to write out the bills, which was extremely difficult for me at first due to my last M. Around this past April, I gave my W a check and said, "Why don't you open up your own checking account in your name only? This account would be just for you. I do not want to know anything about it. I am not going to comment on anything you do with this money, it is yours. If you make a purchase and you are really excited about it and want to tell me, then that is your decision, but I will not interfer, question or try to control what you do with your account. Each month we can put a set amount into this account as well." We have been doing this ever since and I have not asked my W about this account once. She has volunteered information at times and I still did not ask any questions of what she told me.

Now, my W was about 10 when her mom divorced her dad. She had a younger sister and brother that she felt compelled to take motherly direction with. Her dad would drop her off at the grocery store with some money and pick her up in an hour after she did the family shopping. Her dad worked two jobs trying to make ends meat. This is where my W has "learned to not depend on other people." Now this lesson, or learned behavior tends to make people strong in some aspects, but weak in others. This is because this life lesson causes people to build walls and not let people, who would normally get close to you to not be able to be close. Now, my W says she has learned not to depend on anyone. To me this is the same as her not "trusting" anyone. I think this is ironic since she feels that I have trust issues and do not trust her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, ok. I was thinking more about learning a healthy way to manage this issue. For example, can you think of one (1) thoughtful request you can make during the time she’s gone to reassure you? Then, can you MAKE that (1) request REALLY WORK and actually REASSURE you? For example, we always talk on the phone almost every day when we’re not together. There are very few exceptions.

Just remember it’s a request that means if she says “No, I don’t think so.” then you walk away from it without assigning any DJ’s to her motives or engaging in any punitive behavior (no sulking, arguing, etc.)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think this is all on me. We do speak on the phone atleast once a day if we can when we are apart. This goes back to my mistrust issues and I need to handle my internal emotions.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, first you realize that you both have very different T/F/O on an issue and that does not mean it’s unsolvable. How much is your ‘wanting to vomit’ because you’re afraid the issue won’t be resolved to your satisfaction? If you knew that she could feel how she feels and you can STILL build agreement, would it become less important that she T/F/O the same as you do?

You state your point ONCE. If you stated yours first then she states hers, you bite your tongue, take a long slow breath, count to 10 backwards in German or do whatever you have to do to keep yourself from repeating what you said first. You take your opinions as your starting point not as your compromise point. Realize you are GOING to have to consider options that aren’t your 100% ideal.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, I get this, but how do you go forward without my W feeling like her idea is being attacked or compromised. I mean, she is a pretty strong willed woman and is not at a point right now where she is in the negotiating mood. So I think, no matter what I say, or how I say it, it will be viewed as a challenge and not a gracious willingness to compromise because at this point I do not think she feels or understands her need to compromise.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> *shakes her head* Ick! Well, now isn’t an option, so take some steps to unwind yourself. Seriously. You’re just not helping anyone by burning yourself out.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know, but I cannot help my internal strife. I will try to relax on this as much I can. Thanks for caring.

Take Care,

EL