Baba,

I really do not think you are being very fair.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yet you are holding the possibility open that she might relent and bear you another child?????
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am open to having another child. I am not open to causing my W any further pain. I have been consistent throughout our entire relationship. Because of how I feel, I offered that we could adopt. Heck, I even offered to get surgery to make her feel comfortable. When she was first pregnant, I was open to whatever she wished to do, because it was her body. I told her I would support her decision in any way. She and her mom tell me at a dinner that they are going to have the baby and raise it and that I dod not have to be involved. I was offended by this!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Oh man. If I were her, I would hate you for not protecting me from that ordeal in the first place and for "actually holding open the possibility" of having her have a second baby some day. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think deep down, my W is actually unsure if she really does not want another baby. I do not want to tell her "I do not want to have another baby" when it is not true and would definitely cause her to not have a baby if she wanted to because of what I said. Do you see what I mean here? therefore, I have remained open and in the middle. I have not said, "Lets have another baby" and I have not said "I do not want another baby." I have said, "Honey, I never want to putyou through anything like that again. I am willing to get surgery to prevent that from happening if it will help to make you feel more comfortable."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Don't men care about women? Or thier pain? Or protecting thier precious wives bodies? Or anything?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I really do care about my W, her pain, protecting her body and everything.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If you really cared about her you would insist she NEVER go through that ever ever again. And express how sorry you are that she had to ruin her precious body the first time! And believe her when she says she does not want sex.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have expressed sorrow for what she has been through. I cannot believe you are now saying that I should just roll over and agree to a sexless M. How unthoughtful and one sided is this. Baba, you of all people can understand how unfair your statement really is. I did not make my W have her baby, she choose to and I am very happy she did because we have a precious and wonderful S.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She is still having sex with you though she does not want it! She is listening to you ask for sex and to offer oral that she does not want. She sacrificed her whole precious body to carry, have and raise a baby for you she never wanted.

I would be mad as HELL! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This does not make any sense and your being "mad as HELL" would be horribly unfounded. How can you say these things?

EL

You don't have to live with a sexless marriage. But you can accept that for now she does not want sex. Can't you?

I am glad you are not pushing for another baby. Thank goodness.

I am a woman that thinks even having ONE baby is horrible (the pain, the ruining of your body, the 20 years raising it) so I am too blunt and adament about this. If having this baby left some lingering resentment on her part then it needs to come out.

And she was a bartender! Her "MO" is smiling at strangers, mostly men, and laughing with them. You married a bartender what can you expect. They get tips that way.

Hiya EL,

On your question to me a ways back about the LBs, it looks like it's been covered already, but I'll reiterate a little.

First, as I've said before, you absolutely must not tell your wife that what she thinks or feels is somehow wrong in any way, or that you want her to think or feel differently. One example is about her remembering to put her ring back on. You told her it wasn't enough for her to wear the ring, she had to want to the way you wanted her to want to. This is very controlling and you need to do whatever it takes to stop saying that kind of thing. Requesting that she wear the ring is fine. Telling her want you want to her to feel about the ring is badbadbad.

Second, myschae is already talking a bit about demands versus requests, and I'll just say go back and read what she said at least a dozen times. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> It sounds like you already get it, but read it again anyway.

Third...this is back on the subject of you telling your wife her T/F/O are somehow wrong or not what you want. Because of your history of doing this, if your wife says what she thinks or feels about something, and then your response is to tell her what you think or feel, it sounds very much like you're adding "and therefore your thoughts and feelings are wrong" even when you don't say those words. You've said them so many times that they're kind of hanging in the air. So for the time being you need, as myschae said, to absolutely NOT respond to your wife stating her feelings or opinions by stating your own. Instead talk about what she said, or ask questions about what she said, or thank her for telling you and give her a hug or a peck on the cheek or whatever affectionate thing she likes best.

By the way, telling her the next day that you appreciate her sharing how she thinks and feels after she's said something difficult to say or hear is good, but telling her the same thing right when she says it is even better.

On negotiating...I think you're going to have to show your wife how negotiating with you can be a positive thing for her. From the sound of it her experience with you is that you both state what you want and then somebody has to give in. Bleah. I wouldn't want to negotiate either. So show her ways that it can be a win for her. Right now your first reaction when you hear what she wants is to say that's not what you want. That's not gonna work. Right now you need to listen to what she wants and offer up ideas on how you can both do what she wants, but add something to it that would make you enthusiastic about doing what she wants. If you can do that a few times, she gets a chance to see that "negotiation" is not just another word for getting her to do things your way.

On the list of ENs, my thought would be to go over the rest of the list. You could start by saying you'd already read the first on the list last week.

Also on the list of ENs, your wife is hearing as a list of demands. I know that's not what you're trying to say, but that's what she's hearing. Getting help from mys and others on wording things to help avoid making them sound like demands is definitely in order, but no matter how you word them, I think at times your wife will see the list as an attempt at control, since that fits in very well with your past history. Ranting about how it's not fair won't help, so please don't start <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> because it is very fair. Your free choices built the reputation you have. It won't change overnight. So basically what I'm saying is that if your wife calls it a list of demands or an attempt to control, suck it up and agree with her that in the past that's what it would have been, and that you're sorry to have treated her that way in the past. Then repeat that this isn't a list of what she has to do, just a list of information about you and what makes you tick.

I am sorry. I feel men should be more sensitive to women when they want them to bear children. A tiny woman cannot always have a good pregnancy. It is logistics.

All the size O and size 2 women I know who have had children have permanent health problems because of it.

So I am so adament about men thinking this over before expecting thier tiny women to plop out babies. Maybe your wife did not think about this issue before deciding to have the baby. But you can bet she thinks about it now! Somebody should have told her!!!!

But this society hides all the bad things about pregnancy, birth, and raising children and only talks about how wonderful it all is. "It is wonderful and a beautiful experiance" is a myth propagated by society to women in order to make them want to continue cranking out babies to continue the (human) species.

Really pregnancy is like a prison and birth is like elective heart surgery that you have no choice but to go thru if you become pregnant.

Baba,

You really do have a talent you know? How you can wind me up so tight and then in a matter of minutes defuse me is beyond my comprehension. You even made me laugh to boot!

EL

Extremely Lost

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I have to type this twice because this site just had some type of issue about 1 minute away from my posting to you. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good Morning. Did you vote today? I did – first thing this morning!

How frustrating. You know, I’m always so long winded that I type my responses out in Word then cut/paste into the reply box. Then, I wait until it successfully posts before closing the window without saving them. It might be worth trying. It also helps me if I have to get up and do something in the middle.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I mentioned that we would not be where we are today if it was not for all the things she does. She said, "Thank you honey." This is actually out of the norm because every compliment I have EVER tried to give her met with a plane "Thank You." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good deal!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You are right again, scary how you know me so well. She did the things that you labled as "relatively normal" behavior. The thing that causes me grief is that she does not normally act like this with me at home (smiling, laughing, eye contact, playful winks, or banter). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, she’s in introvert, right? That can be how introverts are sometimes. Goodness knows I do the same thing. When I’m at a party or in public, I have my ‘public face’ on. It’s a genuine part of me – I don’t want you to get the impression it’s fake because it’s not - but it takes energy for me to sustain it. When I’m at home, relaxing, I recharge that face with a much more subdued aspect of my personality. It’s a little like wearing make up. I don’t paint my face for an evening at home in front on the T.V. I MIGHT once in a while if my H liked that stuff but he prefers me au’ naturale.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yes, I hope you are right. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It’s not going to do you any kind of productive good to worry about it if I’m not. Down that road lies madness and perdition. So, why not just decide I am? It works for me… what else is there to life? *winks* <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, I think the MC session could go two ways. First, as you suggest, I could go through my ENs breifly stating my first EN again. However, Baba brought up an interesting point about how my W could feel trapped due to the whole situation. Do you think it is a good idea or a REALLY REALLY bad idea to try and bring this up and get an understanding from my W about this? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, it might be a bad idea. I’d really like you to get your needs known. Either clarify the first one since you had so little time on it – especially if your wife brings it up – or get the rest of them out there. Try not to shift focus so much. You’ll get further faster with calm, planned action. Don’t stick TOO closely so you loose flexibility but don’t jump around randomly, either.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yeah, I do tend to try to explain things and end up using words that hurt what I am trying to get across. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, in your defense, the word ‘vulnerable’ wouldn’t have set off any alarm bells for me so this is something that you can truly assign to your Wife’s preferences. I’m not saying it’s not important – obviously it is because SHE’S the one you’re trying to talk to. We need to find a comparable way that’s not so threatening to get your message across. Right now I’m still puzzling over what your message IS.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What I truly mean is that I think two people being physically intimate with each other is one of the ultimate ways a person can give themselves to someone. It is this incredible gift of one's self physically that I cherish and would always cherish. It is also her respecting and understanding that I am not a dog in heat; but, a man wishing to give to her that same gift that I wish for. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I’m going to have to think about this. I sort of relate to what you’re saying.. but the message presentation has elements of control in it. For example, what if sex doesn’t mean that she believes that you want to give her a gift? Or, what exactly does ‘giving yourself’ to someone mean? Those are rhetorical questions, I’m not actually looking for an answer (though feel free, of course).

I suppose a lot of it seems difficult to me because it almost seems as though you’re scripting her experience. What if sexual intimacy involves an entirely different experience to her that has nothing to do with ‘giving herself’ or ‘respect’ or any of that? It might contain things that are just as valuable to her as those things are to you, or not.

Anyway, I’m thinking about it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You are right. This is going to be a big issue for us. I do not think it is an issue of birth control as much as the idea of getting pregnant again. You see, my W is a very intelligent woman who I believe understands that birth control is something physical that you can choose and double up on if you want. I do not think it is an issue of what types of birth control to use. I also think that it probably is not the right issue to try and tackle with my W right now. If I started to talk about issues og getting pregnant and birth control I think she may develop the opinion that I think we have moved to a point right before we are having sex and this would be presumptuous of me. It would be putting the cart before the horse and she may feel like I have just ignored or stepped on her feelings or raised issues. What do you think? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, now isn’t the time. First you have to get her consent to discuss the issue. This is just good to put on your radar screen for super extra sensitive validation and acknowledgement. Er.. I’ll give you some examples soon.

AND, more important than that, it’s an important filter for you to have for yourself to guard against DJ’s. If you acknowledge that this is a major concern for her, you have other options to consider for her reluctance other than that she doesn’t love you. It might help some of that negative self talk that you get into.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Thanks for this uneasy to hear, but very real perspective. Until you wrote this, I had not thought of it like this before. Thanks. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">*chuckles* Yeah, and doesn’t it give you some sympathy for what my poor H has to go through? *grins* In his world it was a simple, easy decision. 10 YEARS later, I finally agree. I tell you, he has the patience of a SAINT.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yes, I believe my W was feeling a bit financially dependent upon me and probably still does.
<snip>
To me this is the same as her not "trusting" anyone. I think this is ironic since she feels that I have trust issues and do not trust her. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">All right, you told me all about her history, but you didn’t answer my question. What does ‘depending on you’ mean to YOU. Give me verbs. What types of actions would be romantically dependent? Like…. calling you if the car breaks down? Uh… waiting for you to move heavy boxes? Give me concrete examples, please.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think this is all on me. We do speak on the phone atleast once a day if we can when we are apart. This goes back to my mistrust issues and I need to handle my internal emotions.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Fair enough.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yeah, I get this, but how do you go forward without my W feeling like her idea is being attacked or compromised. I mean, she is a pretty strong willed woman and is not at a point right now where she is in the negotiating mood. So I think, no matter what I say, or how I say it, it will be viewed as a challenge and not a gracious willingness to compromise because at this point I do not think she feels or understands her need to compromise. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

You: I feel <X>.

Her: I feel <Y>!

You: Ah. I can see that we feel very differently. I understand that you feel <Y>. Can we talk about some ways in which we can build a situation that works for both of us even if we never end up feeling the same way about <the issue>?



There’s an example. The key parts you want to include are:

- acknowledge that there is a difference of opinion
- repeat back to her in your own words what she said so you can verify your understanding of her words
- Ask to build a solution that works while acknowledging that she doesn’t have to change her POV nor are you likely to change yours.

The first two items can swap positions.. actually, as long as you get all 3 in there, you’ll be fine.

Just keep telling yourself that: “You’ll be fine.” Because you really will, you know.

Mys

MOS -

Thanks for going through the genral things. I was asking more about if you saw any LBs from the weekend that I wrote out. I was trying to see if I was getting better and wondered your opinion.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> By the way, telling her the next day that you appreciate her sharing how she thinks and feels after she's said something difficult to say or hear is good, but telling her the same thing right when she says it is even better. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually I told her at the moment it happened and then I reiterated my thankfulness later.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">On the list of ENs, my thought would be to go over the rest of the list. You could start by saying you'd already read the first on the list last week.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As Mys has pointed out, I share the same concerns that glossing over the topic of SF will only help to hide it or burry it for my W. What about all of the support I got from you and others about being consistent and not letting the subject drop respectfully? I think this is why my W has been mentioning this subject out of the blue this past week.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Also on the list of ENs, your wife is hearing as a list of demands. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know, I feel horrible that she is going to see any list like this as demands and my wanting to control her. I cannot help the past, only the present. I know I do not control what she does. I can only give her information and then she chooses what to do.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Getting help from mys and others on wording things to help avoid making them sound like demands is definitely in order, </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I did this for a week! You also provided opinions on this list. I thought you guys had helped me to come up with a pretty good list and ways to say things to try and not push my W's buttons. I even had my onw seperate list that had how my W would respond based upon her past responses along with prepared answers you guys helped me with. I really do not think we could polish the list much more. Basically, I think I just need to deliver it as it is and take your recomendation on trying to explain how this list is not one of demands, just information about me.

Thanks,

EL

Hey Mys,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Good Morning. Did you vote today? I did – first thing this morning!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not yet! I have been at work very early today and do not know when I will get the chance to leave.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It’s not going to do you any kind of productive good to worry about it if I’m not. Down that road lies madness and perdition. So, why not just decide I am? It works for me… what else is there to life? *winks*
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Because of some of the interesting, yet disturbing points that Baba has raised. You know the whole, my W may feel trapped and hates me, or the my W hates me for having a child she "never ever" wanted. I've noticed you have kept from any comments on these subjects yourself.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yeah, it might be a bad idea. I’d really like you to get your needs known. Either clarify the first one since you had so little time on it – especially if your wife brings it up – or get the rest of them out there. Try not to shift focus so much. You’ll get further faster with calm, planned action. Don’t stick TOO closely so you loose flexibility but don’t jump around randomly, either.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would like to get my needs out there as well, but I also share MOS's concerns regarding no matter what I say or how I say it, my W will take it as demands, which I am trying to avoid - right?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, in your defense, the word ‘vulnerable’ wouldn’t have set off any alarm bells for me so this is something that you can truly assign to your Wife’s preferences. I’m not saying it’s not important – obviously it is because SHE’S the one you’re trying to talk to. We need to find a comparable way that’s not so threatening to get your message across. Right now I’m still puzzling over what your message IS.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am obviously making a simple message very difficult to understand. All I am trying to do is to explain (obviously not very well) that SF is more than just the act of intercourse for me. I cherish the sharing and love that is enveloped in the whole process. I miss this closeness more than an O.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I suppose a lot of it seems difficult to me because it almost seems as though you’re scripting her experience. What if sexual intimacy involves an entirely different experience to her that has nothing to do with ‘giving herself’ or ‘respect’ or any of that? It might contain things that are just as valuable to her as those things are to you, or not. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Like what? How could it be that she is not interested in sharing the closeness (if she currently did not have SF issues right now)?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> No, now isn’t the time. First you have to get her consent to discuss the issue. This is just good to put on your radar screen for super extra sensitive validation and acknowledgement. Er.. I’ll give you some examples soon. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Great, I love your examples! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> AND, more important than that, it’s an important filter for you to have for yourself to guard against DJ’s. If you acknowledge that this is a major concern for her, you have other options to consider for her reluctance other than that she doesn’t love you. It might help some of that negative self talk that you get into.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are so right here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> All right, you told me all about her history, but you didn’t answer my question. What does ‘depending on you’ mean to YOU. Give me verbs. What types of actions would be romantically dependent? Like…. calling you if the car breaks down? Uh… waiting for you to move heavy boxes? Give me concrete examples, please.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess ultimately it means trusting me. It means letting me into your heart and not holding back any secrets, even from the past. It means understanding that I will not violate your trust or hurt you and you are safe with me. It also means trusting me physically like that I will not do things that are unpleasent and hurt you.

Now you are going to ask me how a person can show this to me. Well, first off, from being open and free in a sexual relationship; from not minding help from me time to time especially when I volunteer it. I hope this gives you a better idea.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The first two items can swap positions.. actually, as long as you get all 3 in there, you’ll be fine.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for the example. I get it a little better. You said your H was very patient, but you are also with explaining things to me. Thank you for this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Just keep telling yourself that: “You’ll be fine.” Because you really will, you know. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, thanks for the confidence booster.

EL

Extremely Lost

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Not yet! I have been at work very early today and do not know when I will get the chance to leave. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Because of some of the interesting, yet disturbing points that Baba has raised. You know the whole, my W may feel trapped and hates me, or the my W hates me for having a child she "never ever" wanted. I've noticed you have kept from any comments on these subjects yourself. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah. Well, I look at it this way. It may be that she has some of those thoughts and feelings. Actually, let’s assume it’s true – just for the sake of argument. It’s not really your issue to solve, is it? If that’s how she truly feels, at some point she’s going to either have to reconcile those feelings within herself and commit to the marriage OR she’s going to decide she can’t do that and leave. No matter what we do here, you can’t unwrite the past that has been written. She’s going to have to manage to live in her own skin and look in her own mirror.

So, what do I think you should do about it? I think you should concentrate on making the marriage an attractive place for her to be by eliminating LB’s and filling her EN’s. At the same time, I think you need to assert your needs and try and negotiate for a true partnership in which you can both be happy. If her feeling trapped and hating you poses a barrier that can’t be overcome then, I hope you can walk away with the sure knowledge that it wasn’t yours to fix. You can only do your part. You can’t orchestrate her healing. She’s a big girl now and she’s going to have to do the same thing all of us do and that is to learn to get by in this life as best we can and still live with ourselves. You can’t do it for her and even if you COULD I’d encourage you not to. Because, in the end, people deserve the right to do their own personal growth. It’s not yours to manage or solve.

So, I don’t think making it about her being trapped is going to be helpful at this stage. If she wants your help in solving that particular problem, then let her come to you and ask. Assigning her this problem then trying to ‘draw it out’ of her is going to damage your relationship and send you spinning off track.

Now, conjecture over. Stop assuming it all ‘has to be true.’ It MIGHT be true, but there’s no certainty that it is until she sits you down and says “You know… I feel trapped and I kind of hate you.”

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I would like to get my needs out there as well, but I also share MOS's concerns regarding no matter what I say or how I say it, my W will take it as demands, which I am trying to avoid - right? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nope. She gets to feel however she needs to feel about them. You’re not stating them as demands and that’s all I really care about. Yes, she’s emotional and likely to see them as demands but that’s her DJ and you aren’t responsible for eliminating it. There is only so much you can do. Your list is pretty well polished.

Just BE PREPARED and try not to let it throw you, OK? This is crunch time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> All I am trying to do is to explain (obviously not very well) that SF is more than just the act of intercourse for me. I cherish the sharing and love that is enveloped in the whole process. I miss this closeness more than an O. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">AHA! Why don’t you memorize that phrase and say it next time you’re talking about this issue. That is a beautifully clear statement of your message. I love it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Like what? How could it be that she is not interested in sharing the closeness (if she currently did not have SF issues right now)? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I was getting to something a lot like what you said in your ‘clear’ statement. Closeness is much clearer to me than vulnerability.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I guess ultimately it means trusting me. It means letting me into your heart and not holding back any secrets, even from the past. It means understanding that I will not violate your trust or hurt you and you are safe with me. It also means trusting me physically like that I will not do things that are unpleasent and hurt you. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok, but what if what I have to say is going to hurt your feelings? What if what I have to say is unpleasant and negative about you? What about the fears I have that you don’t share? How are you going to react to that stuff?

If I tell you something that you don’t agree with or hurts your feelings, how will you treat that information? What if we don’t agree? Will you ever be able to accept that I don’t think/feel the same way you do and still be able to move on and forward? Will you argue with me? Will I have to explain ad nauseum what I mean and feel because when ever I say something it’s dissected and projected into scenarios I wouldn’t even dream up?

Mmmm… food for thought.

Being trusted means being trustworthy. That means that if you want her to trust you with her thoughts and opinions, you’d better get a handle on your ‘vomit reaction’ when she tells you things you don’t like. Because, I think we can all agree, that if each time we told someone our opinion, s/he threw up on us, we’d probably have a pretty short learning curve on keeping the ole mouth shut, huh?

I think the key here is LONG TERM change on eliminating DJ’s and other LB’s.

*puts the 2X4 back down*

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Thanks for the example. I get it a little better. You said your H was very patient, but you are also with explaining things to me. Thank you for this. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You’re welcome. It’s my pleasure.

Mys

Hey Mys,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yeah. Well, I look at it this way. It may be that she has some of those thoughts and feelings. Actually, let’s assume it’s true – just for the sake of argument. It’s not really your issue to solve, is it? If that’s how she truly feels, at some point she’s going to either have to reconcile those feelings within herself and commit to the marriage OR she’s going to decide she can’t do that and leave. No matter what we do here, you can’t unwrite the past that has been written. She’s going to have to manage to live in her own skin and look in her own mirror. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right. You know, deep down I truly do believe in her and I think she will not chose to leave. She is my soulmate. Take the examples that you and MOS have pointed out as to how you guys thought she was incredibly generous in how she handled some of my LBing and DJing.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, what do I think you should do about it? I think you should concentrate on making the marriage an attractive place for her to be by eliminating LB’s and filling her EN’s. At the same time, I think you need to assert your needs and try and negotiate for a true partnership in which you can both be happy. If her feeling trapped and hating you poses a barrier that can’t be overcome then, I hope you can walk away with the sure knowledge that it wasn’t yours to fix. You can only do your part. You can’t orchestrate her healing. She’s a big girl now and she’s going to have to do the same thing all of us do and that is to learn to get by in this life as best we can and still live with ourselves. You can’t do it for her and even if you COULD I’d encourage you not to. Because, in the end, people deserve the right to do their own personal growth. It’s not yours to manage or solve.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, you are right. I cannot MAKE her do anything. I can only try and make our M a great place that she may wish to spend the rest of her life at.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So, I don’t think making it about her being trapped is going to be helpful at this stage. If she wants your help in solving that particular problem, then let her come to you and ask. Assigning her this problem then trying to ‘draw it out’ of her is going to damage your relationship and send you spinning off track.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, that just sounds like control doesn't it? I mean, who am I to say my W has a certain problem, and then have the balls to recomend a fix for the problem I'm telling her she has?!?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Now, conjecture over. Stop assuming it all ‘has to be true.’ It MIGHT be true, but there’s no certainty that it is until she sits you down and says “You know… I feel trapped and I kind of hate you.”
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for the reality slap! I needed that. Really, thanks.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Nope. She gets to feel however she needs to feel about them. You’re not stating them as demands and that’s all I really care about. Yes, she’s emotional and likely to see them as demands but that’s her DJ and you aren’t responsible for eliminating it. There is only so much you can do. Your list is pretty well polished.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks, you are right again! I agree that I thought the list was pretty polished.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Just BE PREPARED and try not to let it throw you, OK? This is crunch time.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Right! Crunch Time!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> AHA! Why don’t you memorize that phrase and say it next time you’re talking about this issue. That is a beautifully clear statement of your message. I love it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Comitting to memory.....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Ok, but what if what I have to say is going to hurt your feelings? What if what I have to say is unpleasant and negative about you? What about the fears I have that you don’t share? How are you going to react to that stuff?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I need to be open to what she has to say. I need to validate what I heard her say and I need to state my position and try to figure out a compromise.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If I tell you something that you don’t agree with or hurts your feelings, how will you treat that information? What if we don’t agree? Will you ever be able to accept that I don’t think/feel the same way you do and still be able to move on and forward? Will you argue with me? Will I have to explain ad nauseum what I mean and feel because when ever I say something it’s dissected and projected into scenarios I wouldn’t even dream up? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sometimes I might need to disect some things to try and understand things better. I would hope she could understand that I am giving what she says so much attention because I really care about trying to understand what she means and how important what she says is to her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Being trusted means being trustworthy. That means that if you want her to trust you with her thoughts and opinions, you’d better get a handle on your ‘vomit reaction’ when she tells you things you don’t like. Because, I think we can all agree, that if each time we told someone our opinion, s/he threw up on us, we’d probably have a pretty short learning curve on keeping the ole mouth shut, huh?

I think the key here is LONG TERM change on eliminating DJ’s and other LB’s.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand. I will work on this reaction. I am trying to make my changes last.

Thanks for the support Mys,

EL

And sometimes I try to put myself in another person's place too much. Trapped is the way I for sure would feel but your wife is not me. I look at things from my own filter. If I see resentment bubble up in a woman, I look for the source in order to figure out a solution for that hostility.

She was a bartender.
Bartenders flirt with men
Bartenders can be hostile when they need to be

She is not Mother Theresa.

EL - cross-posted from my thread so we can discuss here if you wish - or over there. Whichever you'd like.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Hiya EL-

I'm intrigued by your paragraph:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I do not understand your H's reaction to your trying to teach him how to please you. From what I understand, most of us (ignorant guys when it comes to femal sexuality) tend to pride ourselves on being able to satisfy a woman. For instance, my first experience with my W, I believe she had an O, but never really got confirmation. Other experiences after, I would ask her out of care for her experience and she would say, "I think so" or "no." I take these answers as "nos" because I would think, if she had, she would remember and it would have been a positive thing for her. However, I would also try and give her oral stimulation, but about a year and a half ago she told me that this did not do anything for her. I can't believe this and think it is just from her not feeling very sexual in our M right now.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You don't understand how my H could not have been interested in learning how to please me. Well.. I don't either . But that's how it was. I don't know how many times I said things like "I like it when you" or "I'd like it better if you" or "how about trying this" or "you show me what you like then I'll show you what I like" and it just never got anywhere. Ugh.

But I think that maybe it isn't as uncommon as I'd like to think. For example... you say that the first time you *think* your wife had an O - but you didn't ask or work to make sure or make it a point of focus to make sure she was happy with the sit? It seems that if her pleasure was important you would have done those things. Then you say that she has responded with nos and I don't knows since then....so would it be safe to assume that she may never have experienced an O in your 4 year relationship? Why is that? Did you talk to her about it? Have conversations? Ask what she wanted? Were you willing to learn? And then you say that you don't believe that she didn't like the oral. Why would you discredit something she says? Is she supposed to follow you're script of sexual enjoyment which means that oral must be good for her even if she says it isn't?

Honestly. Something to think about EL. If your W has never *enjoyed* SF ... why would she be even remotely intersted in working towards something that has only meant unwanted pregnancy, pain, and never a good outcome for her?

What is in it for her? (besides a happy EL - cause POJA is all about making it good for her too)

And the fact that you dismiss her honest communication about oral makes me think that you perhaps weren't intentional about attending to her other communication either re: sf. Maybe she doesn't feel heard and respected? I'm starting to feel as though your W and I are in a pretty similar place.

What are your thoughts on all this? I don't want to make you defensive. I don't want a littany of how you're hurt too and she should do it because she loves you. But maybe some honesty about your part in the SF scenario would be in order?

My H also had a script for me. It was the porn script where women O at the slightest touch, always through intercourse, and quickly. That they might even O at the sight of their H in pleasure such that giving H pleasure was jsut AS pleasurable for them as it was for H. That anything an H does is good - the H doesn't ned to listen to the W about what she likes because he automatically knows what kind of touch, oral, or wahtever willdrive her wild. And if she protests, it's just cause she isn't into it and that is her hangup not his.

*sigh*

*****
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">lfc

I'm another one who is baffled by your choosing not to believe your wife about the oral stimulation. How in heaven's name can you ever have mutual sexual fulfillment when you discount what she tells you about what works for her and what doesn't?????

Honestly, you need to behave a lot more responsibly than that given how important sex is to you.

here's to hoping you're busy and not simply mad or avoiding <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Don't want to ruffle your feathers... just hoping that the solution to the SF situation for you AND your wife might have some clues to it that are under your control to improve...

lfc

<small>[ November 03, 2004, 05:59 PM: Message edited by: lookingforchange ]</small>

It might be that he finally collapsed from exhaustion.

We could hope that no news is good news and he and his wife are off in a romantic huddle somewhere. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hey guys,

Actually I have been really bogged down with work the last few days. Sorry to not get down to your posts as quickly as I have before. Unfortunately MOS, my time was not spent how you suggested. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

BUT, I did have an interesting MC session this morning. In fact, the MC said at the end, "I have to say something here. This is the first time I have witnessed the two of you actually communicating and discussing things without defending and arguing. Wonderful job! Keep this up."

Well, it started with dropping our S off at his pre-school. We had an appointment at 10:00AM so we had discussed earlier in the week that maybe we could go somewhere and have coffee before the session. We are walking out of the pre-school and I am thinking I should ask my W where she would like to go and she turned to me and asked me. You see, this is the type of mental connection we used to have. We ended up having a danish and coffee. We just talked. Not really serious stuff, but you know, just talked. It was nice.

We get to the MC office and I walk in with my "list" in hand. My W says, "Why are you bringing that?" I said, "Because we only got through the first item on my list and I would like to get through the rest." She did not say anything. Tension was building inside of me thinking "oh boy, here we go again, things are going to go poorly." We get into the MC office and I mention that I have my list and would like to finish it. The MC says, "OK."

I start off with saying how I have learned this week that I have a different meaning for the word "vulnerable" than my W does. To me, it does not mean that someone is submitting to another and allowing another person to "control" them. I then explained that how I looked at the number one item on my list was that all of the physical things that go along with SF represent for me a closeness to another human being that is truly a gift. It is this closeness that I truly miss, not the "O." This began another discussion on SF for this session.

My W said, "So if I have sex with you, you think you are giving me a gift?" I said, "No, if you have sex with me, I would feel as though you gave me a gift." Then my W said, "You see, I was mad in the last session because you had been telling me that SF is not the most important thing to you and now you are saying it is!" I said, "I have always been consistent in saying that for me, SF is the most important thing for me, but I realize it is not for you. Therefore, for our relationship, SF is not the most important thing because it is not that way for the both of us. This list is a list about what makes me happy and feeling loved. I took the time to write this, as thoughtful as I could, to offer you some information about what makes me happy and feeling loved." My W said, "Well, my list would be the exact opposite of yours." I said, "I would love a list from you. That would be so helpful to me." My W said, "You know what is important to me. We have talked about it!" I said, "I have ideas, but not a concrete list. Incidently, I know you did not get past item 1 on my list and you threw my list away in the last session. I would bet that out of my top four, are a couple that you would have in your top four, based upon our previous discussions." My W said, "I do not think so." The MC then said to my W, "OK, let me read one to you that I think is what would be your number one based upon what I have heard you say in our sessions." My W said, "OK." The MC read, "I am attracted to someone who treats me with kindness and care for my feelings. I love the feeling of being treated like my feelings and needs are important. I absolutely cannot stand being told that my feelings or needs are not important or realistic. I do not like feeling as though I am being judged for what I like or want." Then the MC said, "Wouldn't you say this was pretty high on your list?" My W said, "Yes." The MC said to me, "This is fifth on your list." I said, "yes, but if we went by my W's exact words, she was saying to flip my list to get hers. This would put 'family oriented' at the top of her list, which I know is not what she has told me in the past." My W said, "If you were not a good father, I would not be happy in our M." I said, "I know."

The MC then said, "Well there are people that need the physical intimacy more and there are people that need emotional intimacy in order to participate in physical intimacy. W, if H was doing what I read out for you, would you be more in clined to be physical with him." The room got very quite as the MC and I eagerly awaited a response from my W. She said, "Yeah, I guess so." I felt elated. I finally had some kind of validation that my W might be able to move towards being physical with me again!

Then the MC turned to me and said, "If you had to choose one of two things 'emotional intimacy or physical intimacy,' which would you choose?" I said, "Both, I could not see living without either." The Mc said, "I know, most would chose both, but if you could only choose one that you could have for the rest of your life, which would it be?" I said, "I do not understand how this is going to do any good, because I do not believe you can have one without the other and be happy. I am not going to choose." The MC then said, "I have seen a lot of couples divorce over these two items not being met. Do you know whic of the two couples tend to divorce over more?" I said, "emotional intimacy." She said, "yes."

I said "One of my fears is that my W no longer finds me attractive or is in love with me." Then my W said, "your personality changed to an unattractive personality to me. Things have gotten better." I said, "I understand that and am sorry for that."

Then the MC said to my W, "How was this week? Did H doe anything that pushed you away emotionally or did he do some things that helped emotionally?" My W said, "Well, he did not really do anything to push me away. The other day I asked him for the business checking account because I was getting our finances in order and he hands me the check book and says, 'Don't loose this.,' which irritated me. But I immediately said, 'do I really diserve that?' and he realized he made a mistake and said, 'no, no you didn't and I am sorry.'" She also said, "I think he is listening to me know."

Then my W said, "Well, last Saturday night, H told me about one of the women in the neighbor hood who told him she wanted to get naked in the hot tub with him. H was upset that I was not upset with this, but I trust him. H thinks a small amount of jealousy is normal in a relationship. I totally disagree." Then I said, "Well, this woman is already thought to have been with other guys in the neighborhood. I would have thought there would have been a little concern at least when I mentioned it. To me a small amount of jealousy shows that someone cares about the realtionship and puts value on it. The thing I do not understand is where do you draw the line between a small amount of jealousy and taking someone for granted? Because, without a small amount of jealousy, I feel as though I am being taken for granted." The mc said, "You two are speaking from two different areas. H is speaking from insecurity and W is speaking from trusting H."

My W said, "another thing was when you first heard me talking about wanting to go for a week to my moms because she was havinge her surgery. I felt that you were upset with me for this initially." I said, "You know the funny thing? The funny thing here is that I have not acted as I did in the past when we discussed you going there. I actually thought, hey the W has got to be happy with me because I have not reacted like I did before. In reality, you are feeling as you did in the past." She said, "Well, I am only going to get to spend one day with my mom because you and S are going to be there until Sunday and Tuesday is her surgery." I said, "Well, it is your mom and I understand that you would want to spend some time with her. Why don't you figure out what you want to do and S and I will drive back early, like Friday or Saturday?" My W said, "because I am worried you will feel like I do not want you guys there and you will be upset." I said, "Honey, I understand and would not be upset. Just let me know."

This was the jist of the whole session. Basically, I still did not get to "read" outloud my entire list and I still do not think my W looked past SF on my list, but it is a start.

We walked out of the session and my W said, "Its nice to walk out of these and not be upset, mad, angry or crying." I said, "I know honey, this is how it should be every time. Thank you. Have a great day. I love you."

So I think it went pretty well. We are kind of talking about things without the blowups. I do not know, what do you guys think?

Anyway - on to your posts......

Baba -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And sometimes I try to put myself in another person's place too much. Trapped is the way I for sure would feel but your wife is not me. I look at things from my own filter. If I see resentment bubble up in a woman, I look for the source in order to figure out a solution for that hostility.

She was a bartender.
Bartenders flirt with men
Bartenders can be hostile when they need to be

She is not Mother Theresa. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I am sure my W has had some of those feelings, heck I have too. But I also think deep down we do have a clue about love and each other.

LFC -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You don't understand how my H could not have been interested in learning how to please me. Well.. I don't either . But that's how it was. I don't know how many times I said things like "I like it when you" or "I'd like it better if you" or "how about trying this" or "you show me what you like then I'll show you what I like" and it just never got anywhere. Ugh.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would be over the moon if my W would say things like this to me. I am left with guess work and trying to figure it out on my own from very few clues. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But I think that maybe it isn't as uncommon as I'd like to think. For example... you say that the first time you *think* your wife had an O - but you didn't ask or work to make sure or make it a point of focus to make sure she was happy with the sit? It seems that if her pleasure was important you would have done those things. Then you say that she has responded with nos and I don't knows since then....so would it be safe to assume that she may never have experienced an O in your 4 year relationship? Why is that? Did you talk to her about it? Have conversations? Ask what she wanted? Were you willing to learn? And then you say that you don't believe that she didn't like the oral. Why would you discredit something she says? Is she supposed to follow you're script of sexual enjoyment which means that oral must be good for her even if she says it isn't?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do think there is a misunderstanding here.... The encounter I am talking about is the first time we ever had an encounter. I did not feel comfortable enough to ask her if she had an "O." However, I also did not feel comfortable giving her oral either, but I did. I started with oral and moved on from there. All I can say is that I remember this moment well. She moaned a lot and was extremely into it. She seemed to have had an "O" based off what I could tell from my other experiences.

One issue I have is that I truly do want to make sure that my W has a pleasurable time. I do ask and I do say what can I do. She does not answer or will not tell me. I think she is embarassed to talk about it for some reason. She did tell me about a year ago, that it is a turn off for her for the guy to ask her if she had an "O," so now what am I supposed to do. If I listen to her request, I am never supposed to ask. However, if I listen to what you are telling me, I am uncaring for asking. So what is it?

The whole oral thing is being taken way out of context. Let me give you the history. I seldom gave oral to anyone. The first time with my W I gave her oral and she seemed to love it and really respond to it. It was like this a couple times after this first time. Then we warp forward to where we are now and have had sex a handful of times in the last 4.5 years. A few of these times I tried to give her oral and she did not respond like she really had in the past. Then one day she makes the comment, you really do not have to do that you know. It does not do much for me. This was about a year ago. So, now, I am telling you, any woman that enjoys oral, will definitely agree with me, when a guy give you oral and you enjoy it, he can really tell. This is why I am choosing to not really believe her comment a year ago because in the beginning she loved it. Yes, I do accept that right now she does not like it for some reason. But, my W is not herself and we are not who we used to be due to circumstances that I am trying to really work on. I hold the belief in my heart that we can become those two loving people from before. With this logic, I am believing that she will once again, like oral. Ya know, why is it, at times all of you guys tell me (and it says in MB info) to not give much credence to some really negative things your spouse says throughout this recovery process because they do not really mena it, yet I am getting jumped on when I do this for not taking my W at her word? This really sounds like a double standard to me?

Finally, I definitely do not believe that my W must like what I like. However, I wish she would tell me what it actually is that she likes. When asked, "what can I do to give you more pleasure?" She responds, "I don't know." What am I supposed to say or do after this?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Honestly. Something to think about EL. If your W has never *enjoyed* SF ... why would she be even remotely intersted in working towards something that has only meant unwanted pregnancy, pain, and never a good outcome for her?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Because she used to enjoy SF with me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What is in it for her? (besides a happy EL - cause POJA is all about making it good for her too)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Closeness, pleasure, warmth, happiness

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And the fact that you dismiss her honest communication about oral makes me think that you perhaps weren't intentional about attending to her other communication either re: sf. Maybe she doesn't feel heard and respected? I'm starting to feel as though your W and I are in a pretty similar place.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I really would like to know if you feel this way after reading my more in depth explanations.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What are your thoughts on all this? I don't want to make you defensive. I don't want a littany of how you're hurt too and she should do it because she loves you. But maybe some honesty about your part in the SF scenario would be in order?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have been nothing but honest about SF.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My H also had a script for me. It was the porn script where women O at the slightest touch, always through intercourse, and quickly. That they might even O at the sight of their H in pleasure such that giving H pleasure was jsut AS pleasurable for them as it was for H. That anything an H does is good - the H doesn't ned to listen to the W about what she likes because he automatically knows what kind of touch, oral, or wahtever willdrive her wild. And if she protests, it's just cause she isn't into it and that is her hangup not his.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do not have a "script" for my W other than participating, and informing me as to how I can please her more and more.

MOS -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm another one who is baffled by your choosing not to believe your wife about the oral stimulation. How in heaven's name can you ever have mutual sexual fulfillment when you discount what she tells you about what works for her and what doesn't?????

Honestly, you need to behave a lot more responsibly than that given how important sex is to you. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now, come on MOS. I do not think you are being fair to me by calling me irresponsible. You guys did not have the full story and you judged me. Part of it is my fault because I thought you guys would understand with what I wrote. I found out I was not as clear as I thought. For this I am sorry, but name calling?

LFC -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> here's to hoping you're busy and not simply mad or avoiding

Don't want to ruffle your feathers... just hoping that the solution to the SF situation for you AND your wife might have some clues to it that are under your control to improve...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Dear LFC, I am not mad. Believe me if you could point out something I could do that would make our SF better, I am definitely all ears. I am willing to try anything. However, everyone seems to be barking up the wrong tree on this one. I think my W would even tell you that I asked her in her opinion, too much. I have not quite fully understood the oral comment she made, but I have to look at all information she offers me. In the beginning she liked it, now she does not. I am not a bad person for believing that she will once again like it.

MOS -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It might be that he finally collapsed from exhaustion.

We could hope that no news is good news and he and his wife are off in a romantic huddle somewhere. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, I did not collapse. Thanks for the good thoughts though. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Take care everyone,

EL

hmmmm, why would she have liked it early on and not now? Because she does not feel emotionlly safe with you, and there is a lack of overall intimacy in the relationship, not JUST in the SF area.

Congrats on the huge steps forward in MC!!!!

And it sounds like you and the MC are more on the same page about what physical intimacy means as an EN. That's great.

I do stand by what I said about the oral sex. You need to take her wife at her word. You're saying she did enjoy it once, and though she didn't come out and say she enjoyed it, she did give a vocal equivalent. So that's fine. But you jumped to the conclusion that when she told you it doesn't do anything for her, that means it doesn't do anything for her because she's not feeling sexual right now and so you "don't believe" that it wouldn't normally do something for her. You have no basis to jump to that conclusion and if you want to have mutual SF with your wife, you're going to have to stop jumping to conclusions. All you know is: 1. She as good as told you she enjoyed it once, and 2. She later told you it doesn't do anything for her. That's all you know. You know nothing about the reason for the disparity between the two until she tells you why the disparity is there.

Hmmm...this seems overobvious, but it might be background info that might help you with this one, so here goes anyway. I've noticed that sometimes men assume that if a certain type of touch is ever pleasurable for a particular woman, then it must be pleasurable for her at any time. The reality is that some kinds of touch are only pleasurable if the woman is already considerably aroused. I've heard of this leading to some ugly infighting when the man assumes that these sorts of touch are a way to create arousal, when all they can actually do is heighten arousal that is already there, and they in fact may kill off any potential of arousal if done prematurely.

This is true of oral stimulation for many women. Your wife may have found it pleasurable once, and at other times may have been trying to appreciate and get into it, but was unable to because she wasn't aroused enough before you started. Or it may be that your technique doesn't quite work for her and it only felt good when she was hyperaroused. Or it may be that you've changed your technique to try to get more of a reaction and you've gotten too rough on her and it's just not possible for her to relax into it anymore.

There are a lot of possibilities. Jumping to conclusions is unwarranted.

Hello -

MBFW -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> hmmmm, why would she have liked it early on and not now? Because she does not feel emotionlly safe with you, and there is a lack of overall intimacy in the relationship, not JUST in the SF area. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course you are correct. This is a major thing we are working on. My W had stated many moons back that she did not emotionally trust me. There definitely is a lack of emotional intimacy in our R. My major goal has been to try and create an atmosphere where this emotional intimacy can return, and my W feels emotionally safe with me again. I cannot tell you how much is hurts to here the one you love more than anything, tell you that she does not emotionally trust you anymore.

MOS -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Congrats on the huge steps forward in MC!!!!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thank you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And it sounds like you and the MC are more on the same page about what physical intimacy means as an EN. That's great.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hope so. Maybe she has turned the corner from 100% just listening to my W to trying to help motivate her and to get both of us to understand each other better.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I do stand by what I said about the oral sex. You need to take her wife at her word. You're saying she did enjoy it once, and though she didn't come out and say she enjoyed it, she did give a vocal equivalent. So that's fine. But you jumped to the conclusion that when she told you it doesn't do anything for her, that means it doesn't do anything for her because she's not feeling sexual right now and so you "don't believe" that it wouldn't normally do something for her. You have no basis to jump to that conclusion and if you want to have mutual SF with your wife, you're going to have to stop jumping to conclusions. All you know is: 1. She as good as told you she enjoyed it once, and 2. She later told you it doesn't do anything for her. That's all you know. You know nothing about the reason for the disparity between the two until she tells you why the disparity is there. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We are splitting hairs again here. I know nothing as to why her change in opinion has happened, and any ideas would be purely guessing on my part until she feels comfortable enough to actually TELL ME. All I am claiming is that I hold in my heart that we can get back to a place where she is who she once was and likes what she once liked.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Hmmm...this seems overobvious, but it might be background info that might help you with this one, so here goes anyway. I've noticed that sometimes men assume that if a certain type of touch is ever pleasurable for a particular woman, then it must be pleasurable for her at any time. The reality is that some kinds of touch are only pleasurable if the woman is already considerably aroused. I've heard of this leading to some ugly infighting when the man assumes that these sorts of touch are a way to create arousal, when all they can actually do is heighten arousal that is already there, and they in fact may kill off any potential of arousal if done prematurely. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, this is not so obvious to men, like you say. Thanks. You make a great point here. This could very well be the case.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This is true of oral stimulation for many women. Your wife may have found it pleasurable once, and at other times may have been trying to appreciate and get into it, but was unable to because she wasn't aroused enough before you started. Or it may be that your technique doesn't quite work for her and it only felt good when she was hyperaroused. Or it may be that you've changed your technique to try to get more of a reaction and you've gotten too rough on her and it's just not possible for her to relax into it anymore.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yup! I could see this. Boy it would be a lot easier if she could just tell me this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> There are a lot of possibilities. Jumping to conclusions is unwarranted. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right. PUT THE 2x4 DOWN! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Thanks,

EL

Hey guys,

Just wondering if anyone has heard from Mys lately? I hope everything with her is good.

This past weekend my W asked for help on something she needed to do on her computer. Before I could help she became way to frustrated and kept ranting about quiting what she was doing. I said, "Honey, just take it easy. We can figure this out. Let me take a look and see if we can get you going." She blew up and walked away out of frustration. She was yelling at me and I caught myself yelling back once. Then I immediately said, "I am sorry for yelling, we should not yell at each other." Later she apologized for yelling. I still do not get the feeling we are closer. Later last night, she told me that she does not see my controling tendencies anymore. I thanked her for her openess.

Thats my update.

Take Care,

EL