I see. Maybe RQ was not radically honest and was NOT in enthusiastic agreement. Did you propose an alternative to the trip for her to be excited about? I would probably view that as the misstep here. Also RQ was dishonest by hiding the fact that she never approached her mother on the issue and delaying telling you that the tickets had been bought. So overall I think RH on her part needs to be worked on.

Great post NG. Great perspective.

I would highly suggest planning something romantic and very special for her birthday. Even if she says events are not important to her, and even if that's true, given everything you have been through and the significance of this birthday, and the hoopla about the vacation, eating tv dinners in front of the tube would be a bad bad idea.

Remember that you cannot control RQ's responses. You CAN control how you respond. So she isn't handling this POJA situation very well...just keep your head up and keep putting one foot in front of the other to do what YOU know is the right thing, giving your opinion without the use of DJ's, planning a special birthday that you can be a part of, etc. Follow the program and walk the walk, regardless of what she is doing. You can't revert back to old behaviors in your marriage unless you are BOTH doing the same thing you used to do.

Here's a radio clip of Dr. Harley talking about resentment.

Radio clip on the Two Types of Resentment

After reading HER thread, I think she understands what the big deal was. So they trip is off.

Now on to her birthday. I guess I don't understand why you can't plan some kind of big deal for her? I'm not sure what she would like?

For me it would involve chocolate!! Grin.. Maybe a weekend away at a B & B where he made all the arrangements including what to do with the kids. Where he just said, keep the weekend free I'm doing something for your birthday..

Now, that is me... You know her or better yet ask her. If she could do anything fun, what would it be? what are her favorite foods? activities? Would she love for you to contact all of her friends and have them celebrate as well??

I think the pressure is on for you to make this birthday a good one,but I don't see why that is bad.....

My impression is that it's the whole tit-for-tat atmosphere that is making this hard for him to maneuver in.

If she's thinking "He told me I couldn't go to Cancun so he'd better make this birthday a good one" then he'll hardly be inclined to do anything or, at least, take any joy out of doing it. And it'll show, becoming an unspoken burden or task that he's merely checking off of the list. I'm not saying that she is thinking that, but if that's the impression that he's getting then it'll impact how they deal with each other.

Hence the need for a good quality conversation where they dispel any misunderstandings, both come to an agreement, hitch up their belts and move on with lessons learned. And such a conversation doesn't have to be a tiring or grueling effort, either.

..it's the whole tit-for-tat atmosphere that is making this hard for him them to maneuver in.

Enough already! Yeah, RQ had to take a remedial POJA course, which she passed. Kiss, she ain't going! Got it? Good!

The MB system (when finally implemented) worked! Move on!

But her "not going" isn't resolving anything when it's accompanied with "Fine, I won't go!"

That they're retreating to their own corners over something that should have been put to bed days ago is hard to watch. Kiss, make a move.

kiss, I get the impression that you let RQ plan this trip for the past year before saying your feelings. Is that true?

Surely you can see how that would be frustrating for anyone and how it would cause conflict.

POJA again - if at any time in a POJA agreement one spouse or the other is no longer in enthusiastic agreement, then the previous agreement is null and void, the defualt position is "do nothing," and brain-storming and renegotiating begin again.

When KISS is not enthusiastic about something, "considering how she feels" is NOT the concern... finding mutual enthusiastic agreement is.

Browbeating somebody for being honest about something, regardless of the timeline, is not productive.

In fact, it is a FANTASTIC thing that KISS finally got honest.



HIS work is to BE HONEST, not to avoid conflict, or to avoid frustrating his wife because he is honest.

THAT was part of the previous marital problems!

I think you missed my point because I probably was not clear.

Next time don't wait for a year to express that you are not enthusiastic.

I realize that things sometimes have to be re-POJA'd.

I don't think that is the case here. Sitting back and holding your tongue for a year is not MB and looks like he is trying to manipulate things.

I also think kiss is making a DJ here by predicting how his wife will react to something he says before he even says it. You do not know how RQ will react and even if she does react the way you expect you do not know how she will react in the future once you've discussed it with her.

Just over a month ago, KISS was out on his keister. A year ago, they were in a wreck of a marriage.


Woulda, shoulda, coulda while their marriage was a wreck is a waste of time.

KISS was honest NOW. Where this program is focused; today, tomorrow. NOT a year ago.

The focus needs to be on beign honest NOW and IN THE FUTURE.

Fear can no longer be the motivator for dishonesty or dishonesty by omission.

As far as him having a DJ about her reaction, that DJ is based upon a behavioral precedent. One that Dr. Harley addresses in the Q&A columns when dealing with a "get out of trouble liar."

HOWEVER, the focus for KISS is to be radically honest. That is his side of the streeet.


That doesn't mean that if something has bothered him for some time that he doesn't complain that it bothers him because he "waited a whole year." It means he complains and gives his wife a better opportunity to meet his needs and avoid love busters. It means he avoids letting her continue with IB that continues to build resentment in the marriage.

Exactly my friend. I never suggested that kiss avoid conflict...only to learn from his past mistake. I am not sure how anyone can learn from a mistake if they do not even first acknowledge it and commit to never repeating it again.

This whole debacle is a fine illustration of why POJA takes TWO people communicating O&H with each other from the very beginning. Recognizing and acknowledging past mistakes and learning from them is a vital part of MB and cleaning up of the street. That is how you move forward and help your spouse feel safe.

This gives the impression that you understand and will follow POJA and PORH. That was on 06 Dec 2013... 5 weeks ago.

At about the same time you post that O & H is RQ second EN.

It is hard to take you seriously when you continue to waffle back and forth on actually implementing POJA and PORH on a permanent basis. This is past and present behaviour that has been a recurring theme on your thread from day one.

Pokerface,

I'm not sure i understand you. In what way am i waffling where did i not implament POJA or the policy of joint agreement? I am not following you. Wiuldn't it be RQ that didn't follow POJA?

KISS

I agree KISS that RQ did not follow POJA and that she should not be taking separate vacations from you even if it was properly POJA'd.

But this is not RQ's thread and that has already been addressed over on her own thread.

I will be back to answer your other question.

KISS it bothers me that even as you were typing this back on 06 Dec 2012 and giving us the impression that you understood and would abide by PORH...you were making the decision to NOT speak up about your feelings. You were violating the PORH simultaneously as you typed about it.


It is good that you finally decided to implement it 2 weeks ago when RQ brought up the vacation.

It would have been GREAT for you to implement the PORH back in DECEMBER when you were typing about it.

Sorry for the "would have should have" but glossing over your own violations and focusing on RQ's is not cleaning up your own side of the street.

I have yet to see you acknowledge your own mistake. I get the sense that you think it was ok because you finally decided to speak up.


How can RQ feel safe that you will not again in the future hold something in and then suddenly blind her with your honesty when you cannot even see or acknowledge your own mistake but continue to focus on RQ's.

Playing devil's advocate here, but I seriously doubt that kiss had the nerve to voice any complaints back in December given the status of their recovery. He was on such thin ice, in other words, that rocking the boat probably wasn't in the picture and self-preservation kicked in. We see the reaction that he received in January. What it might have been in November or December is anyone's guess.

Or, at least, that's my take on it and, like most things, it's worth what you paid for it.

Regardless, what's done is done and they've received their t-shirts for this little episode. Neither did a particularly great job at any of it, but I trust that they'll know better next time.

Knowing is half the battle!