Hello Mys and LFC,

I hope you are both doing well today.

Last night my W called me and she was angry for a little bit. I said that I did not wish to cause her any further stress and that it would really be ok for her to call when she could. She said she did not feel that way. I reassured her that I meant it. After picking up our S and getting home we called her back so S could talk with her. They talked for a while, we talked for a while and then hung up. I think she is not mad anymore. She called this morning with an update about her mom and gave me a number for the hospital.

I am trying to put my needs on the back burner for this week. This is very hard since my needs have been on the back burner for way too long already. I am concerned about our M and do not feel as though we will make it. I am not willing to accept a non-physical M and do not know how much more of this I am willing to subject myself to.

Another thing I have noticed, that is sad, is that when my W is around in our "normal" day to day life, our S is always getting into trouble. She is always getting really angry and upset. Yes, I used the word always, because unfortunately, this is true a lot of the time. The sad thing is that with my S and I being alone, he seems to be a much more behaved and well mannered kid. He is not as emotional. He is not constantly looking for reassurances as he is constantly accused of by my W. All in all, the one on one time with my S has kind of opened my eyes to the effect my W is having on our S.

My W is a very caring and loving mother to our S. However, I think her coldness when it comes to showing affection helps cause our S to act out because he is looking for affection. I can completely relate to our S because I am always looking for that same affection.

What do you guys think about this? I have allowed myself to become very open to the facts that I have done things to help cause the current state of our M. It has been very difficult at times, but I have tried very hard to maintain my "eyes open" concept towards trying to see how the things I do affect my W and our M.

Now with this unique test, where my W is completely out of the picture and our S's mood and demeanor is completely different, I cannot over look that my W's current actions have a negative effect on our S. How do I get my W to realize this without her being so defensive. How do I get my W to truly "open her eyes" for the improvement of our S, our family and our M? I think this would go a long way towards everything improving if my W were able to actually watch a tape of our day to day interactions. If our M was a TV show, I know my W would say, "why does he put up with that? whats her problem?" She has done this before when watching shows that I felt portrayed her a to some extent. How do I get her to take a step away from reality and view the big picture? Is there anyway I can?

You know, about 5 years ago, there was a show on TV. I think it may have been Oprah or something like that. I do not usually watch these shows and we were at someone elses home. But, this show was about a couple who were married for 20 years. The W would not have sex with her H and turned him down for 16 years. I do not know why she all of a sudden woke up, but she did. The H did not leave her and stood by her through it all (hats off to him). Now that she realized what she had done and for how long she had done it, she was hysterical with tears and guilt for how she had hurt her H. They now have a "normal" sex life. This has stuck in my mind since I saw the part of this show.

How do I get my W to actually look at our M and actually herself in a more general light. I do not think she will, at first, like what she will see. I know she already does not like herself very much because she feels she is fat and can't fit into her "pre-pregnancy" clothes anymore. She is not fat at all. All of our neighbors, family and friends tell her this. I tell her this regularly. So I know she does not like herself very much right now.

I also know she is searching for herself and her self-worth. This is why she has joined the home owners association and with in 6 months has become Vice-President. This is why she is considering a small business she runs out of our home that would sell beauty products, kind of like Mary Kay. This is more eager to do things with other people than with "just" her family (my S and I).

As I had went for four years and nothing was getting better in our M, in fact it was getting worse, logic caused me to look deeper for a reason as to what could really be causing our problems. As I finally found MB and opened myself up to the concept of my being a large contributing factor, more than both my W and I had originally thought, I realized issues that I was unable to see before, about myself and things I could improve upon. How does someone get someone else to have this realization? My W tried to tell me some of these things over the four years before I found MB, but they did not hit me hard until I finally had enough of our current state of affairs and found MB myself. I guess the answer most will tell me is that a person can only do this for themselves. However, there must be a way another person can help someone "wake up" at least a little bit.

These are just some thoughts flowing through my head that I felt compelled to write down in hopes that they provide part of a key for someone out there to actually help me put this puzzle of a M together. If these thoughts provoke any thoughts, please help me by passing your thoughts on.

Thank you,

EL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Last night my W called me and she was angry for a little bit. I said that I did not wish to cause her any further stress and that it would really be ok for her to call when she could. She said she did not feel that way. I reassured her that I meant it. After picking up our S and getting home we called her back so S could talk with her. They talked for a while, we talked for a while and then hung up. I think she is not mad anymore. She called this morning with an update about her mom and gave me a number for the hospital. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hope things went/are going well with your MIL.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am trying to put my needs on the back burner for this week. This is very hard since my needs have been on the back burner for way too long already. I am concerned about our M and do not feel as though we will make it. I am not willing to accept a non-physical M and do not know how much more of this I am willing to subject myself to. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know it’s hard. I know your needs have not been met for a long time.

I also feel that you’re steadfastly marching down this path of negative prediction. I think you’re sabotaging your efforts and I’m not entirely sure why. You seem to have convinced yourself that things aren’t going to work out (because she’s not home with you right now while her mother is having surgery) and you seem absolutely, utterly determined to find every reason why you are destined to fail.

Look, Extremely Lost, I’m all for using measurement and discernment to judge forward progress and make decisions, but it is VERY wise to choose the moments you choose to measure. You are choosing an incredibly distracting, emotional, stressful moment to measure the chances of your marriage. Now, tell me, does that seem like a good idea to you?

I’m trying really, really hard to be supportive and sympathetic to you, Extremely Lost because I really, honestly, DO think you’ve worked your butt off and have made substantial, measurable, and significant changes and progress. On the other hand, I am not entirely sure that feeding this negative perception is what I want to do. I’m torn between wanting to acknowledge and validate your pain and wanting to kick you in the rear and tell you to quit with the doom and gloom stuff all ready!

You know, you’ve decided in your mind that your wife being away from you for this week and taking care of your MIL is going to undo all the good work you’ve done thus far and, you seem to be doing everything possible to make that happen! Why?

Seriously, let’s talk about this… why is this such a bad thing for your marriage? Why is this week (of all weeks) such a blatant rejection of you? Let me put it to you this way, to me, I’d feel more rejected if my spouse wasn’t meeting my needs while he was right there beside me. If he was taking care of a sick family member, at least I’d know the REASON behind his distraction. I honestly mean that I don’t understand it. Of all the weeks that I’d expect rejection (and feel it was understandably justified) is if his mother was sick.

So, what gives?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Another thing I have noticed, that is sad, is that when my W is around in our "normal" day to day life, our S is always getting into trouble. She is always getting really angry and upset. Yes, I used the word always, because unfortunately, this is true a lot of the time. The sad thing is that with my S and I being alone, he seems to be a much more behaved and well mannered kid. He is not as emotional. He is not constantly looking for reassurances as he is constantly accused of by my W. All in all, the one on one time with my S has kind of opened my eyes to the effect my W is having on our S. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">All right, you’re nit picking. I mean, you really are. *sighs* I suppose you can disregard my opinion because I don’t have children, but I’ve been around enough of them to know that the little dears do stuff like this all the time. Your family dynamics have changed this week. It’s NORMAL for your son to behave differently (better or worse) because his mother isn’t home and things aren’t the status quo. If you were 1 on 1 with your son all the time, you can bet your bottom dollar all those little bad habits would come back.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What do you guys think about this? I have allowed myself to become very open to the facts that I have done things to help cause the current state of our M. It has been very difficult at times, but I have tried very hard to maintain my "eyes open" concept towards trying to see how the things I do affect my W and our M. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think that you’ve taken some very true things ( your wife is not as warm, open and affectionate as you’d like her to be) and jumped to some very unwarranted conclusions (her behavior is causing your son psychological damage because she’s too cold). I think you’re projecting your emotional pain and how you experience your wife’s behavior onto your son and assuming he feels similarly.

One thing you might want to keep in mind is that your son EXPECTS your wife to act the way she does. He’s only 4. In his short life, this is how she’s ‘always been’ so it’s not like she was very affectionate and loving and then withdrew. I think it’s unlikely that he experiences her behavior as rejecting because children are SO adaptable and he has no basis for other comparison. YOU on the other hand, have many, many times the experience that your son has had with other people and even with your wife in different times so you have observed and experienced different behavior.

What are your thoughts on that?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> How do I get her to take a step away from reality and view the big picture? Is there anyway I can? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, first you have to ensure that the lens you’re looking through is not just as fogged as hers. One reason that cameras are so effective in showing other people their behaviors is that they only show what really happened. They document reality. They document EVENTS. One problem with YOU, specifically as her husband, trying to get her to ‘see’ reality is that your view is likely just as flawed as hers is. If what you’re trying to do is get her to see objective reality, you have to be real sure that the reality you’re trying to get her to see is truly objective. That is one reason people use MC’s and IC’s. A third party perspective tends to be much more objective than someone who is heavily involved in the situation. Go back and read what I think about your son’s behavior and how he probably experiences your wife. Unless you are seriously going to tell me that your wife does NOTHING to express love for your son and he has said he doesn’t feel loved, the chances are that he understands exactly how to read the love she does show him. Children are experts at that – the human brain has evolved to respond to parental love like that. Otherwise, I don’t think we’d have made it this far as a species.

This isn’t a flaw. It’s almost impossible to be truly objective about a situation involving your loved ones. In order to do that you’d have to be so emotionally detached that it wouldn’t make a good marriage anyway.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I also know she is searching for herself and her self-worth. This is why she has joined the home owners association and with in 6 months has become Vice-President. This is why she is considering a small business she runs out of our home that would sell beauty products, kind of like Mary Kay. This is more eager to do things with other people than with "just" her family (my S and I). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is something else I’d like to discuss with you. You back off it regularly, but I still get the impression that you take her enjoyment of being with other people as a personal rejection. I can understand your wish that she would enjoy being with you as much as she enjoyed being with other people but, I’d like to suggest that being prickly about her being around other people is not a good way to be enjoyable to be around. I’m not saying that you shouldn’t have any concerns, only that being angry, feeling rejected, or building resentment does absolutely NOTHING to entice her to want to be around you. In a way, you’re making a self-fulfilling prophecy here.

What can you do to make yourself more enjoyable to be around?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> These are just some thoughts flowing through my head that I felt compelled to write down in hopes that they provide part of a key for someone out there to actually help me put this puzzle of a M together. If these thoughts provoke any thoughts, please help me by passing your thoughts on. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, I have a couple of thoughts. One is that I’m a bit confused at the depth of your angst. I thought you were prepared and expected all this. Well, maybe not ALL of it, but at least the shift in focus from your marriage to your MIL.

I do think you have to be careful to not appear as though you lack empathy for your wife, her emotions, her stress, and your MIL. By constantly trying to refocus back on the marriage, it gives the appearance that you’re oblivious to the situation that is happening. In a way, that’s exactly what you resent your wife doing. Do you see that you do it, as well?

And, finally, I know how frustrating it is when you want someone to do something differently than what s/he chooses to do. The answer is in making thoughtful requests about what WOULD make you happy (and, then presumably, letting that make you happy). You know and have said you understand that nothing much is going to happen between now and the New Year because of all the other stuff going on. The biggest thing YOU can do to improve the situation right now is to try to learn to control some of the negative self talk you indulge yourself in. Be stern with yourself. Everything IS going according to what you planned. YES, it is HARD. It is hard to see the worth when you’re doing the work. But, in calmer times you decided this was the right thing to do. I’d like you to consider that you’re not in the best frame of mind at this particular instant in time to second guess that decision. That’s why you MAKE plans like that… for just this eventuality.

So, hang in there, Extremely Lost. You can do this.

Mys

"Ouch" - Covers fast bleeding head wound.....

OK Mys - I need a reality check once in a while, but some of my thoughts are things that have been floating in my mind long before this trip came up. So I will try to disect your post to try and offer some explanations about what I wrote. I do cherish you calling me out when you feel I need to be called out. I do admit I am pretty emotional right now. I want you to understand that I definitely do not have a problem with my W tending to her Mom during her difficult times. I really do not. I have absolutely no problem with this. I guess I am confusing you a little bit.

You see, the way I tend to look at things, (scary, I know, but here is an inside view of my mind), is if you imagine my M as a bowl of gumballs that I carry around with me. Follow me on this one. Then for every action of my W, a gum ball is placed in the bowl. Now, since I am caring this bowl around with me, I cannot help but look at it several times a day. My feeling of love and happiness in my M is based upon this bowl of gum balls. Now, the most recent actions of my W have created additional gum balls that were added to this bowl and they lay on top of the other gum balls in this bowl, so I see these lates actions first when I look at the bowl. Therefore, I am constantly seeing the most recent actions of my W (good or bad) first. Now you might say, I am looking at things to much, but I cannot help this. You might say, "lighten up and let things happen for a while and do not worry about them," but I can't because I am carrying this big bowl of gum balls around. When I end a relationship, I am able to set this bowl of gum balls on a shelf and put a lid on the bowl, but I can NEVER pick it up again. I can look at the bowl on the shelf once in a while, but it can NEVER be filled again. I know this may seem weird, but it is how I am with relationships.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I hope things went/are going well with your MIL.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for asking. My W called today to say that the surgens had finished with her left side and her cancer did not seem to have spread on the left side. They are working on her right side as we speak.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I also feel that you’re steadfastly marching down this path of negative prediction. I think you’re sabotaging your efforts and I’m not entirely sure why. You seem to have convinced yourself that things aren’t going to work out (because she’s not home with you right now while her mother is having surgery) and you seem absolutely, utterly determined to find every reason why you are destined to fail. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would not deliberately try and sabotage my efforts. I am not convincing myself that things are not going to work out because she is not home. I was saying that I think my having some time away from her and being alone with our son may be giving me some clarity for once. I am using this unique opportunity to re-examine our relationship from my POV.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Look, Extremely Lost, I’m all for using measurement and discernment to judge forward progress and make decisions, but it is VERY wise to choose the moments you choose to measure. You are choosing an incredibly distracting, emotional, stressful moment to measure the chances of your marriage. Now, tell me, does that seem like a good idea to you?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course this does not sound like a good idea. The moments I am choosing to measure are not the time while my W is away, per say.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I’m trying really, really hard to be supportive and sympathetic to you, Extremely Lost because I really, honestly, DO think you’ve worked your butt off and have made substantial, measurable, and significant changes and progress. On the other hand, I am not entirely sure that feeding this negative perception is what I want to do. I’m torn between wanting to acknowledge and validate your pain and wanting to kick you in the rear and tell you to quit with the doom and gloom stuff all ready!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know you are trying to be supportive, and I truly appreciate your support. I am sorry for some doom and gloom, but I can't help it at times.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You know, you’ve decided in your mind that your wife being away from you for this week and taking care of your MIL is going to undo all the good work you’ve done thus far and, you seem to be doing everything possible to make that happen! Why?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am sorry that what I said, might have come across like this, but I will try to explain things better. I am not critisizing my W for spending the time with her Mom. No way - No how. I would do the same with my parents and be mad at her if she judged me in this way. I would find a judgment like this to be cold and unacceptable. The issues I have are that the couple of days before my W participating in the tragic moment with her Mom, she felt light hearted enough to consider making plans to go out with friends while she is there. This is not consistent with the martering concept of being around an ailing Mom and going to "take care of her all week." At the same time, my W finds it trying and difficult and debilitating to hear her family would like a 2 minute phone call at night to say good night (especially for her 4 year old). I mean, the night she complained about this, she was at her Mom's house for 4 hours before they went to bed. Her Mom's house is pretty small and all they do is watch TV. So I do not feel I am unreasonable for not accepting her saying she was too busy and does not want to feel like she HAS TO call her family to say good night. What I really want to say to this comment is "TO DAMN BAD! You have a family, a H who loves you and a S who looks up to you and all they ask is for the opportunity to say good night to you during a commercial break! Get over it and count your damn blessings!" You see, where I take issues with my W is her choices of her "hills to die on."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Seriously, let’s talk about this… why is this such a bad thing for your marriage? Why is this week (of all weeks) such a blatant rejection of you? Let me put it to you this way, to me, I’d feel more rejected if my spouse wasn’t meeting my needs while he was right there beside me. If he was taking care of a sick family member, at least I’d know the REASON behind his distraction. I honestly mean that I don’t understand it. Of all the weeks that I’d expect rejection (and feel it was understandably justified) is if his mother was sick. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This week in itself and for what it is intended to be is not seen as a rejection of me. What does make me feel rejected is 1) my rejection for even making out on the last day that my W and I were together alone in bed for a while; 2) my W eagerly making plans (that she was not too upfront about until I brought it up) to go out on the town with friends, when she does not want to do this with me, especially when we are where she is right now; 3) my W's irritation at calling her family to simply say good night. These things are what make me feel rejected, not the fact that she is away. Do you see the difference? I can totally relate and understand her being away, it the other stuff I have trouble accepting. If I bring any of these things up, then she draws the same conclusion you were quick to draw, which is that I have a problem with her being away for a week, when in reality, I would have the same problems if she were actually home.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> All right, you’re nit picking. I mean, you really are. *sighs* I suppose you can disregard my opinion because I don’t have children, but I’ve been around enough of them to know that the little dears do stuff like this all the time. Your family dynamics have changed this week. It’s NORMAL for your son to behave differently (better or worse) because his mother isn’t home and things aren’t the status quo. If you were 1 on 1 with your son all the time, you can bet your bottom dollar all those little bad habits would come back.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now, I would not make this statement lightly regarding my S and my W. My W constantly is frustrated with our S and when I am home with both of them, my S does do things that appear quite irritating. However, my W calls me at work and is usually in a fit and rage over something our S has done. She is usually yelling on these phone calls. Our S goes to pre-school two days out of the week (Tuesdays & Thursdays). We have asked the school about our S's behavior because we were getting concerned about how he was acting. The school and teachers ALWAYS report the same thing. They say our S is a lovely boy who they wish the rest of the children resembled. They say he is a very good natured little boy. We could not understand this because he certainly did not act like this around us. Many other parent we talked to led us to believe that their children acted worse around them as well. On Wednesdays our S has music class, which is an hour long. My W takes him every Wednesday. For some reason, my S does not behave in this class and has been "taken out" of this class on a number of occassions. He will not seem to listen to my W who is trying to TELL him how to do everything. When our S is at home, he is very content to practice the piano by himself. The minute my W sits down with him to "instruct" him, he looses interest and she gets mad at him. My W complains a lot about how our S is "always" looking for constant reassurence from her and she is fed up with it. He does not do this with me.

All of these things tend to look like they make sense, when I find myself with our S alone for a week in our house. Not once have I gotten mad at him. Not once has he challenged me (like he does when we are all together). Not once has he tried to hit me (like he does when we are together after the two of them (S & W) have been together all day. So hopefully you can now understand a little better about where I am coming from. Our S is acting much differently with my W not being around, for whatever reason. But, the fact still remains, this is because she is not around. I have to ask why here, out of concern for my S and my W. I love them both and wish for all of us to be happy. Now taking all of this to the next level, could my S be acting out towards my W because she is a little more over bearing (as she is with me)? Could my S be acting out towards W because he is not feeling warm love from W at a constant pace (as she does with me)? Could my S be acting out because my W is inconsistent at showing affection, if she shows it (as she does with me)? Could my W's irritation of our S "always wanting constant reassurance" be because my W's actions are so inconsistent that my S cannot tell when my W is happy with him or loves him (as she is with me)? You see, I am seeing a pattern here and the consistent thing is my W's lack of affection and inconsistent behavior that appears to not only cause me to act in a way that drives her crazy, but my S is acting this way as well. I tend to look at it as the majority cannot be wrong. My S in this case is the perfect example because he does not, nor could he really be able to at 4, understand why he is acting this way, his actions are just pure and innocent and are human nature, when presented with the type of inputs that my W is providing him. In a way, my S's behavior validates my own hurt and behavior caused by my W's actions.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think that you’ve taken some very true things ( your wife is not as warm, open and affectionate as you’d like her to be) and jumped to some very unwarranted conclusions (her behavior is causing your son psychological damage because she’s too cold). I think you’re projecting your emotional pain and how you experience your wife’s behavior onto your son and assuming he feels similarly.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, I am trying really hard not to do this. I am not trying to assume what my S feels. I am looking at it as he cannot understand why he does what he does at this point (at least in an emotional way). I am merely saying, it is like that book where several young and innocent children were put on an island and then developed without any of todays societal inputs. The children ended up growing into evil savages that fought for power over one another. This book demonstrated human nature and its natural evolution. Since my S is not finally developed emotionally yet, I state that his reactions are based upon my W's actions. His reactions are instinctive more than motivated by manipulation. Therefore, I am saying some of my feelings, which must align with my S's, are valid, instinctive and normal. This being the case, my question was, how do I help my W to see the big picture and for her to realize the damage she is doing through her actions?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> One thing you might want to keep in mind is that your son EXPECTS your wife to act the way she does. He’s only 4. In his short life, this is how she’s ‘always been’ so it’s not like she was very affectionate and loving and then withdrew. I think it’s unlikely that he experiences her behavior as rejecting because children are SO adaptable and he has no basis for other comparison. YOU on the other hand, have many, many times the experience that your son has had with other people and even with your wife in different times so you have observed and experienced different behavior.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is correct, but when met with inconsistent behavior constantly, he apparently is confused and falls into a pattern of anger. This is what I am saying is evident from my S and I being alone with each other for a week. Because I have been through many more emotional issues than my 4 year old, I have half a chance at coming out of dealing with my W's actions and able to move on with my life. What chance does my S have?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, first you have to ensure that the lens you’re looking through is not just as fogged as hers. One reason that cameras are so effective in showing other people their behaviors is that they only show what really happened. They document reality. They document EVENTS. One problem with YOU, specifically as her husband, trying to get her to ‘see’ reality is that your view is likely just as flawed as hers is. If what you’re trying to do is get her to see objective reality, you have to be real sure that the reality you’re trying to get her to see is truly objective. That is one reason people use MC’s and IC’s. A third party perspective tends to be much more objective than someone who is heavily involved in the situation. Go back and read what I think about your son’s behavior and how he probably experiences your wife. Unless you are seriously going to tell me that your wife does NOTHING to express love for your son and he has said he doesn’t feel loved, the chances are that he understands exactly how to read the love she does show him. Children are experts at that – the human brain has evolved to respond to parental love like that. Otherwise, I don’t think we’d have made it this far as a species.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I see my W express love to our S all the time. Unfortunately, I also see my W show our S inconsistent behavior, just as she shows me inconsistent behavior.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This isn’t a flaw. It’s almost impossible to be truly objective about a situation involving your loved ones. In order to do that you’d have to be so emotionally detached that it wouldn’t make a good marriage anyway.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This is something else I’d like to discuss with you. You back off it regularly, but I still get the impression that you take her enjoyment of being with other people as a personal rejection. I can understand your wish that she would enjoy being with you as much as she enjoyed being with other people but, I’d like to suggest that being prickly about her being around other people is not a good way to be enjoyable to be around. I’m not saying that you shouldn’t have any concerns, only that being angry, feeling rejected, or building resentment does absolutely NOTHING to entice her to want to be around you. In a way, you’re making a self-fulfilling prophecy here.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Only when I feel it is obvious that she would prefer others over me. Like you said in a different post to someone else, you need to feel like you are the most important person in your M. Well, I feel the same way.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What can you do to make yourself more enjoyable to be around?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Stop being undersexed and easily irritated.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yeah, I have a couple of thoughts. One is that I’m a bit confused at the depth of your angst. I thought you were prepared and expected all this. Well, maybe not ALL of it, but at least the shift in focus from your marriage to your MIL.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think I explain this above. I do not have a problem with my W's focus being on her Mom. Infact, I would think something was really wrong with her if she did not focus on her Mom.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> do think you have to be careful to not appear as though you lack empathy for your wife, her emotions, her stress, and your MIL. By constantly trying to refocus back on the marriage, it gives the appearance that you’re oblivious to the situation that is happening. In a way, that’s exactly what you resent your wife doing. Do you see that you do it, as well?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hear you and I do see the irony.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And, finally, I know how frustrating it is when you want someone to do something differently than what s/he chooses to do. The answer is in making thoughtful requests about what WOULD make you happy (and, then presumably, letting that make you happy). You know and have said you understand that nothing much is going to happen between now and the New Year because of all the other stuff going on. The biggest thing YOU can do to improve the situation right now is to try to learn to control some of the negative self talk you indulge yourself in. Be stern with yourself. Everything IS going according to what you planned. YES, it is HARD. It is hard to see the worth when you’re doing the work. But, in calmer times you decided this was the right thing to do. I’d like you to consider that you’re not in the best frame of mind at this particular instant in time to second guess that decision. That’s why you MAKE plans like that… for just this eventuality.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for these words. I am definitely considering that I am not in the best frame of mind. This is why I value your opinion.

Thanks,

EL

sounds odd, but do a websearch for *indigo children*

Sounds to me like your wife needs some counseling for FOO issues. Holding on to a lot of anger and resentment, not loving herself and not able to show love to others comfortable, she may not trust in love, if someone who was supposed to love her hurt her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Extremely Lost:
<strong>Therefore, I am constantly seeing the most recent actions of my W (good or bad) first. Now you might say, I am looking at things to much, but I cannot help this. You might say, "lighten up and let things happen for a while and do not worry about them," but I can't because I am carrying this big bowl of gum balls around.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">First, let me say that I am the King of Refusing To Take Responsibility And Blaming All of Life's Problems on My Wife. I too suffer from a lack of SF. And a wife who has a very different tone in her voice when she speaks to anyone else in the world besides me (and yes, everyone else get the friendlier one). So I am very sympathetic to your situation.

That said, you have to accept some responsibility here.

If you truly cannot help looking at the gum balls all the time. Even though you know that looking at them will trigger negative emotions such as anger, frustration, resentment, etc. Well, then you can't help it.

But in that case, stop blaming your wife for all your bad feelings. Your problem is not merely that your wife refuses to provide enough SF. True, she fails to meet your need. And true, her meeting your need might (but only might) eliminate your bad feelings.

Nevertheless, her misbehavior is not the sole cause of your bad feelings. Your inability to ignore her behavior. Your inability to stop looking at the gumballs. Your inability to happily accept whatever color of gumballs happen to be in the bowl. Is just as big a part of the problem as her inability to provide enough SF.

In fact, it may be just as difficult (or even more difficult) for her to provide SF as it is for you to stop looking at the bowl of gumballs. So if you have given yourself permission to constantly examine and anaylze the bowl of gumballs. Then you have to give your wife permission to withhold SF. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

If you cannot stop looking at the gumballs. And you cannot be happy knowing that so many of them are black and so few are red. And your wife just doesn't have any red gumballs to give you. Then maybe you need to put that bowl on the shelf and go find someone with more red gumballs in her pocket.

Hey, I know this is a very old dirty pot calling a freshly polished kettle black. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

Nonetheless, 18 months coaching with cerri has taught me that you have no hope of recovery if you give yourself permission to say "I can't" but you aren't willing to give your spouse the same privilege. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Stop and consider a moment here, EL.

Every time you feel unhappy, you go looking for some way to point a finger at your wife. You don't even question it -- any feeling of unhappiness goes straight into the wife-at-fault translator and crank away.

So long as you keep up this dynamic you will never be happy and there is absolutely nothing your wife can do about it, because no matter what she does, every time you feel unhappy about something the finger will be pointing back at her.

The goodnight phone call for example -- you were unhappy because your son expected a phone call you didn't know if he was going to get. You could own your unhappiness, and say "ok, having this uncertainty makes me unhappy. What am I going to do about it? I could remove the uncertainty -- I could tell him mommy won't call tonight, or I could call her at his bedtime, or I could call her now and ask her to call back at his bedtime." Instead you went straight into "I'm unhappy so my wife must be wrong in two ways: 1. she's not automatically knowing about and fixing my unhappiness without having to be told it exists and 2. she didn't prevent my ever being unhappy in the first place."

Your expectations of your wife's supernatural powers to control your happiness/unhappiness are making it impossible for you to be happy.

Extremely Lost

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I want you to understand that I definitely do not have a problem with my W tending to her Mom during her difficult times. I really do not. I have absolutely no problem with this. I guess I am confusing you a little bit. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, you are a little. Overall I’m getting very mixed messages. For example, you said ” I am just having a hard time with it because our R is not even close to being on track. I know it is probably the opposite, but I feel as though we cannot get better unless we are around each other. I feel with my W being gone, we can only get worse, and this makes me sad and emotional.” which seems to indicate that you feel her absence is the problem (independent of what she’s doing). At the same time, you talk a lot about her not missing you, not calling, and potentially going out with other friends while she’s there – which makes it sound more like something else.

I suppose, the most powerful impression I had was that you understand that she’s gone and want her to take care of her mother but RIGHT AFTER taking care of her mother, you want her to focus on your needs and your son’s needs by calling and ‘acting’ like she misses you instead of focusing on HER needs a little by going out with her friends and having a good time. That’s the best description of my ‘impression’ of what you’ve described and I’m not saying it’s true. I just don’t want you to have to guess about what I’m thinking.

So, really, I see it your resentment as not revolving around your MIL and the fact that she needs care, but around your W and the fact that she’s getting some of her needs or wants taken care of. Would you say that is true?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You see, the way I tend to look at things, (scary, I know, but here is an inside view of my mind), is if you imagine my M as a bowl of gumballs that I carry around with me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mmmm… gumballs…

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Follow me on this one. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Eh? Oh..right. Gotcha.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Then for every action of my W, a gum ball is placed in the bowl. Now, since I am caring this bowl around with me, I cannot help but look at it several times a day. My feeling of love and happiness in my M is based upon this bowl of gum balls. Now, the most recent actions of my W have created additional gum balls that were added to this bowl and they lay on top of the other gum balls in this bowl, so I see these lates actions first when I look at the bowl. Therefore, I am constantly seeing the most recent actions of my W (good or bad) first. Now you might say, I am looking at things to much, but I cannot help this. You might say, "lighten up and let things happen for a while and do not worry about them," but I can't because I am carrying this big bowl of gum balls around. When I end a relationship, I am able to set this bowl of gum balls on a shelf and put a lid on the bowl, but I can NEVER pick it up again. I can look at the bowl on the shelf once in a while, but it can NEVER be filled again. I know this may seem weird, but it is how I am with relationships. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, Ok. I get the analogy. I just wonder how much your expectations changes the color of the gumballs before they get inside the bowl. For example, if you are expecting your wife to #1 take care of her mother and #2 take care of you and your son and put herself a distant 3rd, 4th, 5th, or <some other number> then that might impact how you view the color of the gumballs quite a lot, wouldn’t you say?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Thanks for asking. My W called today to say that the surgens had finished with her left side and her cancer did not seem to have spread on the left side. They are working on her right side as we speak. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I’m relieved to hear it and above everything else, please know that I am hoping for the best possible outcome for your MIL. I hope she is doing better than expected today.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I would not deliberately try and sabotage my efforts. I am not convincing myself that things are not going to work out because she is not home. I was saying that I think my having some time away from her and being alone with our son may be giving me some clarity for once. I am using this unique opportunity to re-examine our relationship from my POV. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, considering your gumball analogy though, it does sound like you’re watching her actions like a hawk while she’s gone and running them through some sort of scoring system. All the while, her absence is stressful for you. The REASON why she ‘s gone must be stressful to you, as well. I don’t know, EL, I don’t think what you’re experiencing is really clarity.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Of course this does not sound like a good idea. The moments I am choosing to measure are not the time while my W is away, per say. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, it’s making up a large part of it. As near as I can tell, your focus seems to be on wondering if she’s going to take a ‘time out’ and go have some fun with her friends. Or, whether or not she feels that it’s important to call you every night. Both of those actions are ONLY possible because she IS away. Obviously, you wouldn’t worry about phone calls if she was in bed beside you tonight.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I know you are trying to be supportive, and I truly appreciate your support. I am sorry for some doom and gloom, but I can't help it at times. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bah! Snap out of it! I don’t buy that you can’t help it. You allow yourself to do it. It’s a bad habit.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The issues I have are that the couple of days before my W participating in the tragic moment with her Mom, she felt light hearted enough to consider making plans to go out with friends while she is there. This is not consistent with the martering concept of being around an ailing Mom and going to "take care of her all week." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">All right, EL, we’re friends so I’m going to give it to you straight right now. YOU ARE BEING SPITEFUL. You really are. Why on earth does taking care of her sick mother have to be martyring herself?! Take a step back and get a breath of fresh air for a moment! When people are dealing with stressful situations it is VERY important that they take some time to do something supportive for themselves. What part of taking care of her mother means that she’s not allowed to have a little bit of fun if she can manage?

Are you suggesting that she plans to neglect her mother in favor of going out with her friends or that her mother’s surgery is a convenient excuse for her to sneak away and get some fun?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> At the same time, my W finds it trying and difficult and debilitating to hear her family would like a 2 minute phone call at night to say good night (especially for her 4 year old). I mean, the night she complained about this, she was at her Mom's house for 4 hours before they went to bed. Her Mom's house is pretty small and all they do is watch TV. So I do not feel I am unreasonable for not accepting her saying she was too busy and does not want to feel like she HAS TO call her family to say good night. What I really want to say to this comment is "TO DAMN BAD! You have a family, a H who loves you and a S who looks up to you and all they ask is for the opportunity to say good night to you during a commercial break! Get over it and count your damn blessings!" You see, where I take issues with my W is her choices of her "hills to die on." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">*sighs*

All right. I understand how you feel about the state of your marriage. I understand that you worry a LOT about your wife going out and having fun with other people when she won’t go out and have fun with you. I also understand that you want her to call you every night.

But, what do you think she feels about all of this? I have to tell you that you come across as not wanting her to have any fun for herself unless she takes care of YOUR NEEDS FIRST. EL, are you asking your wife to put you and your son ahead of her own needs? If you are, for how long do you expect her to keep that up? It’s not healthy to do that, EL. People who give and give and give and never get respite end up with terrible health problems. She needs to be allowed to take care of herself and YES, having a little bit of fun falls under the category of taking care of herself. In fact, I think YOU need to take care of YOURSELF a little better, too. It’s no wonder you’re wearing each other out.

Now, I do realize that optimally, it would be best if she could have that fun with you. Right now, taking a realistic view of your marriage, for whatever reason, that’s not happening. So, until it does I think that as long as she sticks to relatively safe past times (going out with female friends and heading a community board) you might want to consider that she NEEDS these outlets. It doesn’t mean that she doesn’t NEED you. If you set her up in a situation to where nothing else in her life can be done until you and your son are 100% filled up then she is going to want to escape from you. You’re holding on too tightly, EL. You’re going to smother her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Do you see the difference? I can totally relate and understand her being away, it the other stuff I have trouble accepting. If I bring any of these things up, then she draws the same conclusion you were quick to draw, which is that I have a problem with her being away for a week, when in reality, I would have the same problems if she were actually home. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I see the difference. So, about making out, I don’t know what was up with that. It would have been nice for her to do that with you. As far as going out with her friends, I really think you’re being a little selfish. I don’t condone that she wasn’t upfront about it, but I can understand it a little. I think she was worried about you having a negative reaction to the information. I don’t see the point in not wanting her to have a little bit of fun with her friends while she’s there even if she doesn’t go out on the town with you. Look at it this way, EL. What did you want her to plan to do? She can’t very well invite friends over to her sick mother’s house. So, that means she’s going to have to go out somewhere if she wants to see them. And, no, I don’t think wanting to see friends from your hometown while you’re home (no matter the reason) is odd or unreasonable. I assume she made plans contingent on how your MIL is feeling. If she’s feeling all right, I see no reason why your wife shouldn’t take a break.

As for the phone calls, if I put myself in her place, it might make a difference as to why I thought you wanted me to call. If I felt you were checking up on me or if I was worried about feeling guilty each time I called, I’d be reluctant too.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Now, I would not make this statement lightly regarding my S and my W. My W constantly is frustrated with our S and when I am home with both of them, my S does do things that appear quite irritating.
<snip>
You see, I am seeing a pattern here and the consistent thing is my W's lack of affection and inconsistent behavior that appears to not only cause me to act in a way that drives her crazy, but my S is acting this way as well. I tend to look at it as the majority cannot be wrong. My S in this case is the perfect example because he does not, nor could he really be able to at 4, understand why he is acting this way, his actions are just pure and innocent and are human nature, when presented with the type of inputs that my W is providing him. In a way, my S's behavior validates my own hurt and behavior caused by my W's actions. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">All right, let’s assume this is true. Inconsistent behavior can lead to problems with children.

Here’s the thing. I don’t think there IS a way for you to tell this to your wife without pushing her far, far away. At least not right now. You’re going to absolutely HATE my answer, but I really think this just means you need to work harder at getting your marriage back on track. Unless you think that your wife is doing something very harmful to your son, at which point as his father, you need to step up and remove him from the situation (and get custody).

I think that the sequence for this issue is going to have to be 1.) fix marriage then 2.) build a better parenting partnership. You are not going to get your wife to work on the marriage by telling her that she needs to change for your son’s sake. If you suggest that, she’s going to see it as an end run around getting her to change for YOUR sake whether you mean it that way or not. In the meantime, as your son’s father, you can absolutely impact how he feels and how much affection he gets. If you feel your wife’s affection is too intermittent and inconsistent, then you need to double your efforts to give him as much continuous, consistent affection as possible. I really don’t think anything you say about it to her is going to be effective at this point and I see the potential for great damage to your relationship.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This being the case, my question was, how do I help my W to see the big picture and for her to realize the damage she is doing through her actions? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Fix your marriage and get to a place where you two can communicate about very painful issues like parenting styles productively. Right now, it’s unlikely to be successful.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Only when I feel it is obvious that she would prefer others over me. Like you said in a different post to someone else, you need to feel like you are the most important person in your M. Well, I feel the same way. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I did say that. But, also in that post, I said that I don’t expect him to put my needs before his needs. As Dr. Phil says: “You can’t give what you don’t have.” So he has to take care of himself FIRST, then he can take care of me. So, he takes care of his needs for sleep, food, safety, reflection, quiet, etc. before he takes care of my needs. I do expect my needs to come before he meets OTHER people’s needs although in this situation, I’d expect him to attend to his mother first.

I don’t see this as your wife taking care of her friends needs before yours. I see this as her taking care of HER needs before yours. I don’t think it’s a workable strategy to expect or ask your spouse to sublimate her needs in favor of yours. When you think about her activities, she’s not focused on filling someone else’s needs at the expense of yours, she’s focused on filling some of HER OWN NEEDS. Until she gets something iniside, she’s not going to have anything to give to you, EL. Eventually, she can let you help fill her needs but for right now, she’s in withdrawal and giving to your son at least. All your speculation on her inconsistency with your son might be because the well is running dry and she needs to find some way to make things right for HERSELF before she can make anything right for anyone else, including you and your son. She can’t give you what she doesn’t have.

So, yes. I need to come first before any other person in my H’s life. But, I need him to put himself first before me because I need him strong and healthy to be able to give to me. Just like I have to put myself first before him so that I can be strong, healthy, and whole give to love him. I suppose the key difference, for me, would be if I thought he was putting another person ahead of me rather than finding activities that he did for his fulfillment.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Thanks for these words. I am definitely considering that I am not in the best frame of mind. This is why I value your opinion. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Heh. You thought I was harsh yesterday…

Look, EL, I think that your expectations are getting in your way. I fear that your expectations might be more than any person can actually give you if you think she should put you first even before herself.

Mys

MBFW - Checked out Indigo Children. Its a little weird. The questions to figure out if your child is an Indigo Child could easily apply to all children in my opinion. I also share your opinion that my W needs some IC for issues she has had before we got together. You see, in our R she is very quick to point out any of my old issues that she feels are effecting her, but when I have done the same, she is quick to argue I am wrong.

Hold -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> First, let me say that I am the King of Refusing To Take Responsibility And Blaming All of Life's Problems on My Wife. I too suffer from a lack of SF. And a wife who has a very different tone in her voice when she speaks to anyone else in the world besides me (and yes, everyone else get the friendlier one). So I am very sympathetic to your situation.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And I yours. I have followed your posts.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> That said, you have to accept some responsibility here.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Totally willing to. I am just not willing to accept ALL responsibility. I am aware that in my current state of affairs, my guage as to how I try to understand my W's actions needs some recalibrating and is why I am writing on this board.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If you truly cannot help looking at the gum balls all the time. Even though you know that looking at them will trigger negative emotions such as anger, frustration, resentment, etc. Well, then you can't help it.

But in that case, stop blaming your wife for all your bad feelings. Your problem is not merely that your wife refuses to provide enough SF. True, she fails to meet your need. And true, her meeting your need might (but only might) eliminate your bad feelings.

Nevertheless, her misbehavior is not the sole cause of your bad feelings. Your inability to ignore her behavior. Your inability to stop looking at the gumballs. Your inability to happily accept whatever color of gumballs happen to be in the bowl. Is just as big a part of the problem as her inability to provide enough SF.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe I missed something in all of the MB books, but "ignoring her behavior" was never part of anything I read. I am not willing to have my spouse behave in such a way that she emotionally hurts me and I just learn to "ignore" it. Come on here Hold. This is where you and I potentially let ourselves down. We tend to over look too much of this kind of behavior. Both you and I are very much "givers" most of the time. Why? Because we want to make people happy. I am willing to bet you feel as I do, but I am the type of person who very much enjoys giving gifts instead of recieving them.

Of Course things would be ok for my W if I could accept any color of gumball, but that would be dishonest to myself. If you truly mean this than how could you post what you have recently regarding your "line in the sand" with your W. You know, where you tell her you will trade doing things she likes for SF. If you were going to practice what you are preaching to me, you would be giving your W whatever she wants and "ignore" the fact she "ignores" your needs. I do not see the logic in what you are saying to me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> In fact, it may be just as difficult (or even more difficult) for her to provide SF as it is for you to stop looking at the bowl of gumballs. So if you have given yourself permission to constantly examine and anaylze the bowl of gumballs. Then you have to give your wife permission to withhold SF.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I absolutely do not agree with your correlation here. You are saying: If I cannot stop letting the negative actions of my W effect me, then it is OK for my W to not give me SF. This is absurd. How can you offer this advice to me, especially with all the negative things your W has done to you and you have finally had enough and gave her an ultimatum?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If you cannot stop looking at the gumballs. And you cannot be happy knowing that so many of them are black and so few are red. And your wife just doesn't have any red gumballs to give you. Then maybe you need to put that bowl on the shelf and go find someone with more red gumballs in her pocket.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This I can agree with. If my W feels she has nothing left to give me or our M than it definitely is time to put the bowl on the shelf so to speak. This is a decision she needs to make not me. I must, to be fair to my W, assume she feels she has more to give to our M because she is still around and feels that she is trying in some way to work on our M. Therefore, I must offer her this benefit of the doubt because it is not for me to judge. I can only change myself. However, if the case is such that she really does not have anything left for me or the M than she needs to be gracious and honest enough with herself and me to be RADICALLY HONEST.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Hey, I know this is a very old dirty pot calling a freshly polished kettle black.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I respect that you see this, but I do fail to not comprehend what you are truly trying to tell me. IT certainly cannot be the conclusions I have really drawn from what you have written.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nonetheless, 18 months coaching with cerri has taught me that you have no hope of recovery if you give yourself permission to say "I can't" but you aren't willing to give your spouse the same privilege.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You need to expand on what you wrote. It is illogical to say you cannot say if you say you can't do something, you have to allow your spouse to not be able to do something. This is because, this is only true if the two things are actually equal. Definitely, my viewing or pondering my W's negative actions versus my W withholding SF is not even close to being equivalent. Drawing this comparison is similar to saying, I feel it is ok for me to take a piece of candy from a store without paying for it, therefore, I should be OK with my spouse committing murder. This makes no sense.
The other tought thing is that people are all different and give much different weightings to things than other people. Therefore, the value one puts on one action is not likely to be the same value another person would put on the same action. Therefore, it is nearly impossible to try and decide what "equivalent" actions are.

I do appreciate your taking the time to offer me your thoughts. I hope you continue to do so. I just do not understand your thoughts you have written and do not necessarily agree with some of them. However, throughout this entire process, I consider and accept that I must change as a person and evolve towards an improved person which includes being very open to other's opinions. Therefore, I would welcome further explanation on your points with the understanding that I missed something.

MOS -

How have you been?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Every time you feel unhappy, you go looking for some way to point a finger at your wife. You don't even question it -- any feeling of unhappiness goes straight into the wife-at-fault translator and crank away. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, I can accept your statement and agree that I most likely do this from time to time. I also agree it is not good.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So long as you keep up this dynamic you will never be happy and there is absolutely nothing your wife can do about it, because no matter what she does, every time you feel unhappy about something the finger will be pointing back at her. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Fair enough. If I am doing this all the time, I can see your point and agree with it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The goodnight phone call for example -- you were unhappy because your son expected a phone call you didn't know if he was going to get. You could own your unhappiness, and say "ok, having this uncertainty makes me unhappy. What am I going to do about it? I could remove the uncertainty -- I could tell him mommy won't call tonight, or I could call her at his bedtime, or I could call her now and ask her to call back at his bedtime." Instead you went straight into "I'm unhappy so my wife must be wrong in two ways: 1. she's not automatically knowing about and fixing my unhappiness without having to be told it exists and 2. she didn't prevent my ever being unhappy in the first place."
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, here is where I need to offer a little more explanation. You see, we are at the point (I feel) that by my mere calling my W while she is out of town, I am bothering her or it is considered an LB at this point. Therefore, I have told her that I will not call because I know she will be busy and she can call when it is convenient for her. She agreed this and liked this offer. Therefore, I could not call her that night. My issue comes from the fact that in a normal, loving relationship, or family situation for that matter, someone should not need to be told, reminded, asked to call their H or their S when they are out of town, especially to say good night. This person should feel internally compelled and internally desired to call and speak with their H and/or S in this situation. I know I would. I know most situations you find in books, TV or anywhere, display this as "normal" actions. Therefore, one can only feel that to do the opposite to this and show little feeling that it matters, to be "abnormal" in a good relationship. This is where I fell bad and why. My S has only been away from my W for a handful of nights in his entire life. She knows he struggles and waits up for her to say good night to him. Its a small price to pay to pick up a phone and spend 2 minutes on it. Especially when you are just sitting around watching TV for four hours.

I am not trying to hold my W to a standard of trying to fix things she does not know exists. Do you have to be told to call the people you love when you are away from them? NO. So I am sorry here, but I must respectfully disagree. Even so, if my W has a problem with my desire for communicating with her, especially if we are seperated, then why is this my problem? Why is it every time something bothers me it is my problem and not allowed to actually be her problem. I now that I can only change myself and that it is up to my W to change her if she so desires, but this does not take away responsibility for her own issues/actions.

MOS, I have a lot of respect for your posts to me, though some of them have been difficult to take, but in the end I accept them; but, I have to ask, why in all of my posts do you always seem to want to find fault with my thinking or how I feel? I am not asking this to be a smart a**. I am asking because, I wonder why you would not turn around, see it from my POV and then offer me some positive steps towards helping the situation to be more favorable towards my outlook sometimes. I have to imagine that out of a 100 posts of mine, which illustrate 100 different situations where I feel strongly on something, certainly, my feelings cannot be off base on all 100 situations, otherwise I would have not been able to exist as a human being at all.

Mys -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, you are a little. Overall I’m getting very mixed messages. For example, you said ” I am just having a hard time with it because our R is not even close to being on track. I know it is probably the opposite, but I feel as though we cannot get better unless we are around each other. I feel with my W being gone, we can only get worse, and this makes me sad and emotional.” which seems to indicate that you feel her absence is the problem (independent of what she’s doing). At the same time, you talk a lot about her not missing you, not calling, and potentially going out with other friends while she’s there – which makes it sound more like something else.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, what I meant is that by the mere fact that my W is going to be gone, this will present a problem. Why, well 1) she will be gone; 2) whenever she has been gone, it has turned out to be a negative experience for both of us; 3) the fact that she is away from me and at home, causes my W a heightened sense of stress because she feels I am jealous and wanting to control her; 4) Because of my W's internal stress about what she thinks I am thinking or worrying about, anything I attempt to do or say falls under heavy scrutiny and usually ends up removing from her love bank; 5) when we are apart, she comes across as more emotionally cold than she does while at home (not caring about calling to say good night etc..). All these things rolled into one is what I meant by saying "her being gone." I am sorry for not clarifying earlier.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I suppose, the most powerful impression I had was that you understand that she’s gone and want her to take care of her mother but RIGHT AFTER taking care of her mother, you want her to focus on your needs and your son’s needs by calling and ‘acting’ like she misses you instead of focusing on HER needs a little by going out with her friends and having a good time. That’s the best description of my ‘impression’ of what you’ve described and I’m not saying it’s true. I just don’t want you to have to guess about what I’m thinking.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is close, but I do want her to take care of her needs, but without stepping on or hurting me. There is a right way and a wrong way. For example, (I'll use me), my not getting SF for years does build up anxiety in a person. Most of my SF issue is the need to be close to my W specifically, but once in a while there is also the primal urge for the release. Now I could go and take care of this need of mine and then be able to take care of her need, which is right now, never discussing SF and acting like I do not need it, but I understand that this is totally wrong. Therefore, I am ignoring my need because of her needs and my M. The same could be applied to her going out with her girlfriend, who by the way was organizing a night out with her boyfriend and other male friends I have never met. The problem I have is that EVERY time she is away by herself (not just this occassion) she ends up going out with "friends" and has a great time. EVERY time I am with her in these same areas, I ask her to go out with me and lets go out with her friends and she ALWAYS turns me down for some silly reason, like she is tired or whatever. I have even tried to organize things to take every excuse out of it for her and still she has turned me down. This alone hurts, but it even hurts more, when she pre-organizes going out on a trip she knows I will not be around and then is not volontary with the information until I bring it to the forefront. This is where I take exception. Why am I wrong here? It is not like she does not know all this, because we have discussed it in many short conversations and situations. So, how can she not understand how this makes me feel. This goes back to one of Hold's recent posts about his W being Mrs. Obvious?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, really, I see it your resentment as not revolving around your MIL and the fact that she needs care, but around your W and the fact that she’s getting some of her needs or wants taken care of. Would you say that is true?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">to some extent I would agree with this because my W is currently in what I feel is a very selfish mode of "only her needs should be met." This has been my feeling of her since April, when I understood some of my bad habits and actions. Remember I mentioned how up until that point she always would claim that it is definitely not my fault (her not being interested in SF) and that she did not know what was wrong with her? Well, after I opened the door to the possibility that I could understand some things that I have done to make our SF situation worse, she jumped on the bandwagon and over night I had become 100% of the problem. It made me feel like a scape goat. It has evolved into my W and the MC pushing me to meet all of her needs without care for my own. In some way, I am provided with feeling like it is out of some "price my W feels I must pay for all my past actions." The problem and the sentment comes from the fact that throughout all of this, my W's actions throughout our long time of problems did not meet my needs either. I do not see things as her fault or my fault anymore (about the past). I see them as, "OK we have had some problems, we both were not good at communicating nice with each other, lets start working towards cherishing each other and each person's needs." However, this is not what my W will subscribe to right now. I do not know how to help get her to understand that in the past, we were both wrong, and now we both need to improve things. She has said several times that I am the one that needs the counseling, not her. She says I am the one with the problems, not her. How do I pull her out of denial?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yeah, Ok. I get the analogy. I just wonder how much your expectations changes the color of the gumballs before they get inside the bowl. For example, if you are expecting your wife to #1 take care of her mother and #2 take care of you and your son and put herself a distant 3rd, 4th, 5th, or <some other number> then that might impact how you view the color of the gumballs quite a lot, wouldn’t you say?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, good point. There are a number of layers to an onion, wouldn't you say?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I’m relieved to hear it and above everything else, please know that I am hoping for the best possible outcome for your MIL. I hope she is doing better than expected today.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for saying this. I have heard that she is doing better today. Her blood pressure is a bit low so they are concerned with the plastic surgery taking because of blood flow, but they are hopeful.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, considering your gumball analogy though, it does sound like you’re watching her actions like a hawk while she’s gone and running them through some sort of scoring system. All the while, her absence is stressful for you. The REASON why she ‘s gone must be stressful to you, as well. I don’t know, EL, I don’t think what you’re experiencing is really clarity.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not really clarity as much as frustration and dissapointment. Look, she needs to be away for a week or so, fine. She wants to go out with friends without me while she is away, fine. Just be respectful. Atleast act like you care about me and like to talk to me once a day. Be respectful of my feelings. These two small requests will return enormous gains back to her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, it’s making up a large part of it. As near as I can tell, your focus seems to be on wondering if she’s going to take a ‘time out’ and go have some fun with her friends. Or, whether or not she feels that it’s important to call you every night. Both of those actions are ONLY possible because she IS away. Obviously, you wouldn’t worry about phone calls if she was in bed beside you tonight.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are sort of right. I would still be concerned that she is not interested in saying "good night" to me. She does this at times. Earlier in our relationship and mentioned how I grew up in a house where we said good night to each other every night and it was important to me that her and I say good night to each other. She wanted to argue that I was wrong for wanting this and that it was silly. I got hurt, she got hurt because she felt I was being controling by asking and I was insecure for asking this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Bah! Snap out of it! I don’t buy that you can’t help it. You allow yourself to do it. It’s a bad habit. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, you are somewhat right here. Snap*Snap*Snap!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> All right, EL, we’re friends so I’m going to give it to you straight right now. YOU ARE BEING SPITEFUL. You really are. Why on earth does taking care of her sick mother have to be martyring herself?! Take a step back and get a breath of fresh air for a moment! When people are dealing with stressful situations it is VERY important that they take some time to do something supportive for themselves. What part of taking care of her mother means that she’s not allowed to have a little bit of fun if she can manage?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nothing! But, let me ask you, what give you your biggest strength in Life aside from yourself personally? Its your FAMILY is it not? She is allowed to have a little bit of fun to "take care of herself" but why does it ever have to be a choice between that and your family? It never has to be this way. You make your 2 minute phone call to the family and off you go.....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Are you suggesting that she plans to neglect her mother in favor of going out with her friends or that her mother’s surgery is a convenient excuse for her to sneak away and get some fun?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, but what I am suggesting is that she most likely could come home Friday night, yet, I would be willing to bet she stays Friday night to go out with her friends, wakes up feeling crappy by 12:00PM and gets home Saturday night around 6:00PM. It is all about choice. As of Friday at around lunch, it will no longer be about her Mother, it will be about going home and seeing your family, or staying to go out with friends even though you won't do this with your H when he is with you in that area. Do you see a difference here? I also would not accept that she would be too tired to drive all the way home on Friday, but could drive around and go out until 3:00AM, and then be rested enough to drive back home on Saturday.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But, what do you think she feels about all of this? I have to tell you that you come across as not wanting her to have any fun for herself unless she takes care of YOUR NEEDS FIRST. EL, are you asking your wife to put you and your son ahead of her own needs? If you are, for how long do you expect her to keep that up? It’s not healthy to do that, EL. People who give and give and give and never get respite end up with terrible health problems. She needs to be allowed to take care of herself and YES, having a little bit of fun falls under the category of taking care of herself. In fact, I think YOU need to take care of YOURSELF a little better, too. It’s no wonder you’re wearing each other out.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, I am asking for our needs to atleast rate on her radar screen. Also, since when does a person have to be away from their spouse to have fun and take care of themselves? The MB concepts actually favor learning to do EVERYTHING together. I understand alone time and getting a break from things, but even this is against MB writtings.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Now, I do realize that optimally, it would be best if she could have that fun with you. Right now, taking a realistic view of your marriage, for whatever reason, that’s not happening. So, until it does I think that as long as she sticks to relatively safe past times (going out with female friends and heading a community board) you might want to consider that she NEEDS these outlets. It doesn’t mean that she doesn’t NEED you. If you set her up in a situation to where nothing else in her life can be done until you and your son are 100% filled up then she is going to want to escape from you. You’re holding on too tightly, EL. You’re going to smother her.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right. How do I not smother her, but get her to refocus on having fun with me and not needing other things to have fun with instead of me? Tell me how. Please do not tell me it is by encouraging her to do what I wish to avoid (have fun with others instead of me).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yes, I see the difference. So, about making out, I don’t know what was up with that. It would have been nice for her to do that with you. As far as going out with her friends, I really think you’re being a little selfish. I don’t condone that she wasn’t upfront about it, but I can understand it a little. I think she was worried about you having a negative reaction to the information. I don’t see the point in not wanting her to have a little bit of fun with her friends while she’s there even if she doesn’t go out on the town with you. Look at it this way, EL. What did you want her to plan to do? She can’t very well invite friends over to her sick mother’s house. So, that means she’s going to have to go out somewhere if she wants to see them. And, no, I don’t think wanting to see friends from your hometown while you’re home (no matter the reason) is odd or unreasonable. I assume she made plans contingent on how your MIL is feeling. If she’s feeling all right, I see no reason why your wife shouldn’t take a break.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">All of this is fine and I can easily accept it, but (and there is always a but), I am concerned about her keeping anything from me because she is not sure how I would react. This is dishonest and unfair (especially with what she is asking me to do at this time). She wants me to trust her, yet does dishonest things. Her actions do not validate any feelings of trust I am trying to have for her, they break them down. They cause me to think, gee, what else is she not telling me? What else is she doing?

About the going out thing, great. Well, then why not go out with me even just once with her friends when I am with her? You see, after several deliberate attempts to stop this from happening on her part, I cannot just go, ok, I will openly trust her on this as well, because she would take me if I were there, so it is no big deal. Again, she is not validating my trust, yet demands that I trust her. This is a two way street. She needs to step up and take responsibility for what she want as well, which is for me to totally trust her so she can feel like she can totally trust me emotionally. Unfortunately, she says she should not have to do anything because I should normally just trust her. Well this is the same as me saying she should just normally have SF with me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As for the phone calls, if I put myself in her place, it might make a difference as to why I thought you wanted me to call. If I felt you were checking up on me or if I was worried about feeling guilty each time I called, I’d be reluctant too. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do not see how I have done any action that would make her feel as though I am checking up on her other than her having lingering feelings from the past. Why would she feel guilty? If she is feeling guilty because she does not feel enough inside her to want to talk with her family while she is away and she no longer feels this type of loving connection, than I guess she diserves to feel guilty.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Here’s the thing. I don’t think there IS a way for you to tell this to your wife without pushing her far, far away. At least not right now. You’re going to absolutely HATE my answer, but I really think this just means you need to work harder at getting your marriage back on track. Unless you think that your wife is doing something very harmful to your son, at which point as his father, you need to step up and remove him from the situation (and get custody).

I think that the sequence for this issue is going to have to be 1.) fix marriage then 2.) build a better parenting partnership. You are not going to get your wife to work on the marriage by telling her that she needs to change for your son’s sake. If you suggest that, she’s going to see it as an end run around getting her to change for YOUR sake whether you mean it that way or not. In the meantime, as your son’s father, you can absolutely impact how he feels and how much affection he gets. If you feel your wife’s affection is too intermittent and inconsistent, then you need to double your efforts to give him as much continuous, consistent affection as possible. I really don’t think anything you say about it to her is going to be effective at this point and I see the potential for great damage to your relationship.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, I fully agree with your assessment and this is the reason I asked the question. I do not know of anything I could do to actually help this situation without hurting my relationship with my W in the process.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Fix your marriage and get to a place where you two can communicate about very painful issues like parenting styles productively. Right now, it’s unlikely to be successful.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree, but the horrible thing is that this is the few fragile years where my S is in the period of developing his sense of self. These are very formative years. I need my W to be consistent, loving, caring and supportive to him now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I did say that. But, also in that post, I said that I don’t expect him to put my needs before his needs. As Dr. Phil says: “You can’t give what you don’t have.” So he has to take care of himself FIRST, then he can take care of me. So, he takes care of his needs for sleep, food, safety, reflection, quiet, etc. before he takes care of my needs. I do expect my needs to come before he meets OTHER people’s needs although in this situation, I’d expect him to attend to his mother first.

I don’t see this as your wife taking care of her friends needs before yours. I see this as her taking care of HER needs before yours. I don’t think it’s a workable strategy to expect or ask your spouse to sublimate her needs in favor of yours. When you think about her activities, she’s not focused on filling someone else’s needs at the expense of yours, she’s focused on filling some of HER OWN NEEDS. Until she gets something iniside, she’s not going to have anything to give to you, EL. Eventually, she can let you help fill her needs but for right now, she’s in withdrawal and giving to your son at least. All your speculation on her inconsistency with your son might be because the well is running dry and she needs to find some way to make things right for HERSELF before she can make anything right for anyone else, including you and your son. She can’t give you what she doesn’t have.

So, yes. I need to come first before any other person in my H’s life. But, I need him to put himself first before me because I need him strong and healthy to be able to give to me. Just like I have to put myself first before him so that I can be strong, healthy, and whole give to love him. I suppose the key difference, for me, would be if I thought he was putting another person ahead of me rather than finding activities that he did for his fulfillment.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I totally agree with you and this is why I have signed up to try and meet my W's needs initially without expecting her to fill mine in the short term. But that is just it, help me to define the short term. How long do I, or should I go on excepting and not resisting my needs being met and my W acting like Only her needs are important? I still have not yet even recieved confirmation from her that she accepts my needs for SF as valid. Her needs are the only thing in the forefront of our M at the moment and therefore, her tank should have something in it for her to be able to give something back by now. Using your Dr. Phil quote, what about my not having anything left to give because of her outlook that only her needs are important?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Heh. You thought I was harsh yesterday… </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thats OK, I still look forward to your posts. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Look, EL, I think that your expectations are getting in your way. I fear that your expectations might be more than any person can actually give you if you think she should put you first even before herself.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do not think she should put me before herself. I just want her to trust me as she wants me to trust her. She needs to understand that not all of her actions have been totally trust worthy even though she may feel they have been. She needs to be open to the fact that she has and will make mistakes that at times cause me or anyone in my position to question our trust in her. She needs to own up to her side of our M and validate that my needs are real, fair and reasonable.

My true expectations are actually very reasonable. Here they are:

1) I expect the person I choose to spend the rest of my life with will totally trust me, and I will totally trust them. This I now realize I have had issues with and am trying to work on this.

2) I expect the person I choose to spend the rest of my life with actually loves and desires me and will ALWAYS care about my feelings as I will ALWAYS care about theirs.

3) I expect the person I choose to spend the rest of my life with will desire to have a physical relationship with me and desires to please me as much as I desire to please them.

4) I expect the person I choose to spend the rest of my life with to remain faithful to me and to care about my understanding that they are, have been and will remain faithful to me as I do and will for them.

This all I ask. I challenge anyone to say these four items are unreasonable. Give me these four items and I will fill every need you have.....

Thanks & Take Care,

EL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Extremely Lost:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The goodnight phone call for example -- you were unhappy because your son expected a phone call you didn't know if he was going to get. You could own your unhappiness, and say "ok, having this uncertainty makes me unhappy. What am I going to do about it? I could remove the uncertainty -- I could tell him mommy won't call tonight, or I could call her at his bedtime, or I could call her now and ask her to call back at his bedtime." Instead you went straight into "I'm unhappy so my wife must be wrong in two ways: 1. she's not automatically knowing about and fixing my unhappiness without having to be told it exists and 2. she didn't prevent my ever being unhappy in the first place."
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, here is where I need to offer a little more explanation. You see, we are at the point (I feel) that by my mere calling my W while she is out of town, I am bothering her or it is considered an LB at this point. Therefore, I have told her that I will not call because I know she will be busy and she can call when it is convenient for her. She agreed this and liked this offer. Therefore, I could not call her that night. My issue comes from the fact that in a normal, loving relationship, or family situation for that matter, someone should not need to be told, reminded, asked to call their H or their S when they are out of town, especially to say good night. This person should feel internally compelled and internally desired to call and speak with their H and/or S in this situation. I know I would. I know most situations you find in books, TV or anywhere, display this as "normal" actions. Therefore, one can only feel that to do the opposite to this and show little feeling that it matters, to be "abnormal" in a good relationship. This is where I fell bad and why. My S has only been away from my W for a handful of nights in his entire life. She knows he struggles and waits up for her to say good night to him. Its a small price to pay to pick up a phone and spend 2 minutes on it. Especially when you are just sitting around watching TV for four hours.

I am not trying to hold my W to a standard of trying to fix things she does not know exists. Do you have to be told to call the people you love when you are away from them? NO. So I am sorry here, but I must respectfully disagree. Even so, if my W has a problem with my desire for communicating with her, especially if we are seperated, then why is this my problem? Why is it every time something bothers me it is my problem and not allowed to actually be her problem. I now that I can only change myself and that it is up to my W to change her if she so desires, but this does not take away responsibility for her own issues/actions.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wow, that's got to be some kind of record for maximum number of DJs in a minimum amount of space. It's a beautiful example of what I meant though.

When you carry on like this, it makes it pretty clear that there's no way on earth your wife can be secure from the "bad mother" and "bad wife" finger being pointed at her by you because there will always be some imperfection you can find to pounce on if you're really determined to play the wife-at-fault game.

I'm sure if one of us lived in your house for a week, we could find a bunch of little things that we could build up just as big a bruhaha over about how they make you a baaaad father. Do those little things actually made you a bad father? Nope. Does someone saying so make you a bad father? Nope.

Excercise for the student: go back over your post and identify all the DJs.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
MOS, I have a lot of respect for your posts to me, though some of them have been difficult to take, but in the end I accept them; but, I have to ask, why in all of my posts do you always seem to want to find fault with my thinking or how I feel? I am not asking this to be a smart a**. I am asking because, I wonder why you would not turn around, see it from my POV and then offer me some positive steps towards helping the situation to be more favorable towards my outlook sometimes. I have to imagine that out of a 100 posts of mine, which illustrate 100 different situations where I feel strongly on something, certainly, my feelings cannot be off base on all 100 situations, otherwise I would have not been able to exist as a human being at all.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, I did offer you some positive steps in my last post -- you seemed to have missed them or maybe you don't want to hear them.

Want a repeat?

Own your own feelings. Let me say it again: OwnyourownfeelingsOwnyourownfeelingsOwnyourownfeelings.

What does that mean? Back to the phone call issue again. What were your feelings?

1. Unhappiness because of the uncertainty your son faced, and discomfort because you weren't sure what to do about it.

2. Frustration that you felt painted into a corner by your agreement not to call your wife, but now had something you might want to talk to her about without waiting for her call.

Did I miss anything? Ok, so those are YOUR feelings. They are not caused by your wife. They are caused by how you choose to react to the situation.

You keep skipping steps in dealing with your own feelings. You go straight from I'm-unhappy to wife-at-fault without any kind of pause or realistic evaluation.

So step 1: Identify your feelings. Step 2: Own them. They are yours. They are not something that is done to you.

Step 3: Look at the situation that is contributing to your feelings, and most importantly look at YOUR contributions to the situation. When deciding what to change, THIS is the part where you can actually do something constructive, instead of all this finger-pointing hysteria. Ok, so there's some details you didn't settle with your wife before she left. Big deal. If that makes her a bad mother, then it also makes you a bad father. Not so fun when it's dished out equally, is it? But neither of you are bad parents, you just didn't magicaly forsee all details to settle in a new situation. So you can handle it. I made some suggestions how in my previous post.

Extremely Lost

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> All these things rolled into one is what I meant by saying "her being gone." I am sorry for not clarifying earlier. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for clarifying, actually all that does help a lot. The main question is… what are you doing differently this time?

I can list a few probable things, you told your wife it was good for her to go out with her friends and you told her to call you when she feels ready to call you. Did I miss any?

Is she doing anything differently? I don’t get the impression going out with her friends is different.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This is close, but I do want her to take care of her needs, but without stepping on or hurting me. There is a right way and a wrong way. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, ok, stop and take a breath for a moment. The two things you told your wife explicitly are 1.) that you hope she has a chance to go out with her friends because she hasn’t seen them in a long time and 2.) that you don’t mind if she calls you when she can and you don’t expect her to call you every night. Right? Wrong?

So, are you telling me that even though you OFFERED those things to her freely, she should somehow KNOW that it will hurt your feelings, decline your offer, give you credit for offering and still not go out with her friends and still call you every night whether she wants to or not? Is that your definition of trust?

You and I need to level set here. I tend to think of being trusted as being trusted at my word. If I tell someone to “Go ahead and have a good time.” then my expectation is that they go out and have a good time. I’d be very irritated if they decided to outsmart me by staying in and being miserable all the while lamenting that’s what I wanted them to do after I told them something different.

I’d like you to at least consider the possibility that she’s trying to trust your WORDS.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The same could be applied to her going out with her girlfriend, who by the way was organizing a night out with her boyfriend and other male friends I have never met. The problem I have is that EVERY time she is away by herself (not just this occassion) she ends up going out with "friends" and has a great time. EVERY time I am with her in these same areas, I ask her to go out with me and lets go out with her friends and she ALWAYS turns me down for some silly reason, like she is tired or whatever. I have even tried to organize things to take every excuse out of it for her and still she has turned me down. This alone hurts, but it even hurts more, when she pre-organizes going out on a trip she knows I will not be around and then is not volontary with the information until I bring it to the forefront. This is where I take exception. Why am I wrong here? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">*sighs* You’re not wrong for feeling slighted, EL. I’m really not saying that. But, given the fact that you verbally TOLD your wife to go out and have a good time with these people, it does seem a bit uncharitable to be angry with her if she goes. If it really bothers you that much, then you should risk her anger and ire and just tell her so. If you aren’t being honest with her, then how can you really expect her to trust you?

This is a lot like mercy sex. If your wife said it was OK to have sex with her then curled up in a ball saying she felt used and dirty afterward how easy would it be for you to trust anything she said was ok?

So, the real question is how much is this going to bother you? Since you’ve all ready told her it was OK, can you really BE OK with it? Or, do you need to take a step back and confess to her that it’s NOT OK and take responsibility for negotiating with her. (And, yes, you need to expect that she might have a few negative emotions about it.) But, in the long run it’s going to be less damaging then her coming home and picking up on your seething resentment about the issue.

Either choose right here, right now to be OK with it or step up to the plate and speak your mind.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So, how can she not understand how this makes me feel. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Because you told her, out loud, in plain English, that “I hope you get a chance to go out with <friend.>” That’s why.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> to some extent I would agree with this because my W is currently in what I feel is a very selfish mode of "only her needs should be met. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mmmm.. I think you’re confusing withdrawal with only wanting her needs to be met. Aside from asking you not to bring certain subjects up, I can’t think of any needs that she’s willingly offered to let you meet. I was under the impression that was part of the larger problem.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> However, this is not what my W will subscribe to right now. I do not know how to help get her to understand that in the past, we were both wrong, and now we both need to improve things. She has said several times that I am the one that needs the counseling, not her. She says I am the one with the problems, not her. How do I pull her out of denial? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, pulling her out of withdrawal will help with this a lot.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Thanks for saying this. I have heard that she is doing better today. Her blood pressure is a bit low so they are concerned with the plastic surgery taking because of blood flow, but they are hopeful. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I’m so glad to hear she’s doing well. That’s the most important part of any of this, isn’t it?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Nothing! But, let me ask you, what give you your biggest strength in Life aside from yourself personally? Its your FAMILY is it not? She is allowed to have a little bit of fun to "take care of herself" but why does it ever have to be a choice between that and your family? It never has to be this way. You make your 2 minute phone call to the family and off you go..... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It’s only a choice between the two if you force it to be one. She can have both.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> No, but what I am suggesting is that she most likely could come home Friday night, yet, I would be willing to bet she stays Friday night to go out with her friends, wakes up feeling crappy by 12:00PM and gets home Saturday night around 6:00PM. It is all about choice. As of Friday at around lunch, it will no longer be about her Mother, it will be about going home and seeing your family, or staying to go out with friends even though you won't do this with your H when he is with you in that area. Do you see a difference here? I also would not accept that she would be too tired to drive all the way home on Friday, but could drive around and go out until 3:00AM, and then be rested enough to drive back home on Saturday. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">All right, but which activity sounds more FUN? Which activity sounds more STRESS relieving? Driving X number of hours on a Friday night doesn’t sound as much fun to me as a night off with my gal pals. Maybe it would be more fun to YOU… but then you and I have very different definitions of fun.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> No, I am asking for our needs to atleast rate on her radar screen. Also, since when does a person have to be away from their spouse to have fun and take care of themselves? The MB concepts actually favor learning to do EVERYTHING together. I understand alone time and getting a break from things, but even this is against MB writtings. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don’t see this as having to be away from you to have fun, but rather having fun even though she’s away from you. Your life doesn’t sound SO dismal that you NEVER have fun, is it? On the other hand, taking care of a sick mother after surgery does NOT sound fun. Going out with old friends does sound fun.

I don’t think MB tells you to never do anything alone or be away from each other. MB says to make sure you get 15 hours a week together. Other than that, it assumes you do spend time away from each other. MB cautions you against developing intensive hobbies that your spouse does not participate in because those are on going events. It does not say that you can’t go out and visit some friends without your spouse once in a while. Heck, I love to take off for a week and go visit my gal pals.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You are right. How do I not smother her, but get her to refocus on having fun with me and not needing other things to have fun with instead of me? Tell me how. Please do not tell me it is by encouraging her to do what I wish to avoid (have fun with others instead of me). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, it depends on what question you’re asking. If you’re asking how to stop smothering her, then the answer really is to stop trying to limit her behavior so much. You’re not where she is right now. Expecting her to not see any of her friends while you’re not there is smothering. Not wanting her to have fun with anyone else until she learns to have fun with you is smothering and controlling. I think you should be worried about scale and excess but your wife doesn’t seem to have a busy social schedule usually. Occasional nights out aren’t as much of a problem as if she were going out every weekend, right?

As for how to get her to focus on having fun WITH you instead of always associating fun activities to those that DON’T include you the only answer I can think of is that you learn to do things that she finds fun. I don’t understand why she doesn’t want to do the same things while you’re there than she does when you aren’t. About the only thing I can think of from what you’ve told me is your past statements that she feels you act jealous or possessive when her friends are around. It might be that those situations make her uncomfortable because she’s worried about you saying or doing something that appears jealous or that you might get angry with her for having a good time or something. I’m not saying that’s true, I’m just speculating based on some of your past descriptions.

Like you, I don’t find “She’s too tired” as particularly illuminating. What types of activities did you two enjoy when you were dating? I know you had a long distance relationship for some time so maybe those activities were limited. What sorts of things do you enjoy doing together? Are you saying that she doesn’t do anything she finds fun with you or that she only doesn’t do certain things with you? I didn’t really have the impression that you two didn’t have any way to have fun together.

I’m probably rambling just a little. Tell me a little more about this ‘fun factor’ stuff and maybe we can brainstorm a little.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> All of this is fine and I can easily accept it, but (and there is always a but), I am concerned about her keeping anything from me because she is not sure how I would react. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, yeah, but you do the same thing. Is it because you have dishonest intentions? For example, you told her you were fine with her going out with her friends but you aren’t. Or, at least you certainly don’t seem to be fine with it. You also don’t seem very fine with her not calling you to say goodnight every evening. Isn’t the reason because you were afraid of her reaction to that news?

I really don’t think she’s trying to pull anything over on you, Extremely Lost. I think she just wants to go out with her friends and not feel guilty because she chooses to do that instead of hopping behind the wheel of a car and driving X hours to get home to you and your son.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This is dishonest and unfair (especially with what she is asking me to do at this time). She wants me to trust her, yet does dishonest things. Her actions do not validate any feelings of trust I am trying to have for her, they break them down. They cause me to think, gee, what else is she not telling me? What else is she doing? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is unfair. But, if you want her to be honest with you, then you have to help remove some of the fears she has about being honest with you. That means you need to be very, very respectful of her wishes to go out and have a good time even if you’re feeling a little jealous. You can be truthful and tell her that you’re feeling a bit jealous and make a thoughtful request for a little extra attention when she gets back, but if you’re going to punish her each time she tells you the truth, she’s going to learn not to tell you the truth. And, by punishing her, I mean use that as a springboard to manipulate her into choosing your way without negotiation. Please understand that saying “Oh yes, honey, I don’t mind if you go.” then acting resentful about the fact that she made that choice is passive aggressive punishment. By the same token telling her “No, you MUST not go.” and not letting her make the choice is a Selfish Demand. All you can do is tell her how you feel about her and then be open to negotiating a way for her to help you feel enthusiastic that doesn't ALWAYS exclude the activity she wants to do.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> About the going out thing, great. Well, then why not go out with me even just once with her friends when I am with her? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I really don’t know what’s going on there. I just don’t have enough information.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I do not see how I have done any action that would make her feel as though I am checking up on her other than her having lingering feelings from the past. Why would she feel guilty? If she is feeling guilty because she does not feel enough inside her to want to talk with her family while she is away and she no longer feels this type of loving connection, than I guess she diserves to feel guilty. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, give me a break. Extremely Lost, I doubt the reason she is feeling guilty that she doesn’t have enough feelings for you and your son. I think she’s feeling guilty because when she calls instead of hearing how you guys are doing fine, she hears how your son waited up until past midnight, WITH A COLD, for a call that never came. YEESH. That makes ME feel bad and I’m not even his mother. She calls and she gets this guilt trip laid on her for not calling after you told her she didn’t need to call and you wonder why she doesn’t want to talk to you?! I wouldn’t want to talk to you, either.

This is when you really need to get a hold of your doom and gloom and present a calm, cheerful, supportive voice on the line. THAT’S attractive. THAT’S who I want to talk to.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I agree, but the horrible thing is that this is the few fragile years where my S is in the period of developing his sense of self. These are very formative years. I need my W to be consistent, loving, caring and supportive to him now. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">*sighs* Yeah.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I totally agree with you and this is why I have signed up to try and meet my W's needs initially without expecting her to fill mine in the short term. But that is just it, help me to define the short term. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your plan is to start to assert your needs and make thoughtful requests to have them met after the New Year. So, we’re talking January. Up until January, I’d like you to try as hard as you possibly can to .. if not fill her love bank.. refrain from making substantial withdrawals.

So, short term is about four more weeks. You gonna make it?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Using your Dr. Phil quote, what about my not having anything left to give because of her outlook that only her needs are important? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Four more weeks.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Thats OK, I still look forward to your posts. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I do not think she should put me before herself. I just want her to trust me as she wants me to trust her. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You squander that trust each and every time your words do not match your actions. Telling her something is OK to do then resenting her for doing it is squandering her trust.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She needs to understand that not all of her actions have been totally trust worthy even though she may feel they have been. She needs to be open to the fact that she has and will make mistakes that at times cause me or anyone in my position to question our trust in her. She needs to own up to her side of our M and validate that my needs are real, fair and reasonable. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, she does need to pull her weight in this marriage. But, you have a plan. Your plan is to assert this after the New Year. Are we still on board for that plan?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 1) I expect the person I choose to spend the rest of my life with will totally trust me, and I will totally trust them. This I now realize I have had issues with and am trying to work on this. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It depends on how you define total trust. I’m not sure it’s wise to totally trust someone. I think you always have to worry about appropriate boundaries and have communication lines in place to ensure that the marriage is protected.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 2) I expect the person I choose to spend the rest of my life with actually loves and desires me and will ALWAYS care about my feelings as I will ALWAYS care about theirs. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Care about and respect your feelings, yes. I think it’s unrealistic to always expect someone (anyone) to always COMPLY with your wishes and feelings. I respect my H’s feelings a lot but there are times that, even though it hurts him, I have to follow my own conscience and do what I feel is right.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 3) I expect the person I choose to spend the rest of my life with will desire to have a physical relationship with me and desires to please me as much as I desire to please them. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now, this one I agree with.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 4) I expect the person I choose to spend the rest of my life with to remain faithful to me and to care about my understanding that they are, have been and will remain faithful to me as I do and will for them. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, it depends a bit on what you require as proof. I suppose this has a lot to do with the trust you spoke of earlier. If you require that she never look at another man as proof of fidelity then obviously that’s not realistic. However, if you’re talking about reasonable reassurances (as I said it’s not necessarily wise to trust too completely) then that is a great idea.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This all I ask. I challenge anyone to say these four items are unreasonable. Give me these four items and I will fill every need you have..... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hey, I actually like this list a lot. Maybe it’s a nice summary you can take to your MC sessions when you talk about your needs? What do you think?

Mys

hi EL. I noticed that you didn't really reply to my post. (I don't think - maybe I missed it?)

I have tried to stay off this thread today becuase it is a little too much for me. But I just can't help it so here I am <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Please take this as the kindest, squashiest, smooshiest 2x4:

Please. For one week. Get over yourself.

For one week simply focus on the things you need to be doing yourself. Work on you.

You spend an incredible amount of time laboriously nitpicking every little thing your wife does. We rarely hear you humbly ask for ture help that you then accept. We frequently hear you ask for help and then respond to advice by pointing out every reason why your resentment for your wife and reasons for doing the things you do the way you do them - is perfectly justified.

Well of course you have reasons for doing things. We don't argue that. But it is pretty obvious that those strategies aren't working. So time to try something else.

I honestly couldn't stand to read today becuase I felt so bad for your wife.

Here she is trying to juggle family illness - a tumor no less (it sounded so much LESS serious in how you described it) and you are worried about you. You are even, in this latest post, begrudging her a moment of unwinding and recovering by going out with friends before coming home to worry about your needs and your son.

Give her a break just this once before you doom and gloom. Please.

respectfully,
lfc

OK, the evil EL steps into view......

I am a logical person, no really I am. I can take a look at something and say, gee, so many people disagree with my points that I really must consider that I am wrong, or not getting something. So, this is what I am going to try and do. I think one of my personal issues is that I do not provide enough information about statements I make, and therefore, I get called on it because you guys are drawing the only conclusions you can based upon what I wrote. However, in my mind, I feel as though I am explaining things well enough, but obviously I am not.

Before I begin, I would like to say that my W and I had a very good conversation on the phone last night. I did tell her that she needs time for herself and to take care of herself and I hope she did get a chance to see her girlfriend. I love her and meant every word of it. However, this does not change the fact that I am still very hurt about my W not going out with me when with or without her friends when I am in that area with her. But either way, we did have our best phone call yet and hopefully it was positive enough that she looks forward to talking with me today, however, she has not called me yet and had called me by this time three other days this week. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

So here I go.


MOS -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Wow, that's got to be some kind of record for maximum number of DJs in a minimum amount of space. It's a beautiful example of what I meant though.......

Excercise for the student: go back over your post and identify all the DJs.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, here goes:

"You see, we are at the point (I feel) that by my mere calling my W while she is out of town, I am bothering her or it is considered an LB at this point."

One could consider this to be a DJ. However, one must examine the definition of my W relaying information to me. For example, has my W actually said the words: "You are bothering me when you call me" to me? The answer is no. Has my W reacted in very negative ways to my calling her even when I kept the calls LB less (and I know you probably think I am not capable of this, but I am)? The answer to this is Yes. Therefore, it is not a DJ because my W has communicated to me that it does in fact bother her when I call her, even if she did not say the exact words.

"My issue comes from the fact that in a normal, loving relationship, or family situation for that matter, someone should not need to be told, reminded, asked to call their H or their S when they are out of town, especially to say good night. This person should feel internally compelled and internally desired to call and speak with their H and/or S in this situation. I know I would."

This statement may be called a DJ. However, it is something I believe and am not saying it just about my W. I am saying it applies to everyone, including myself. In this text, it is not a DJ.

"She knows he struggles and waits up for her to say good night to him."

Some may take this as a DJ, but it truly is not. My W would tell you this.

"Its a small price to pay to pick up a phone and spend 2 minutes on it. Especially when you are just sitting around watching TV for four hours."

Again, I could see how someone would take these words as a DJ, but again it is not. My W actually told me this is what they were doing. Therefore, this is not a DJ.

"Do you have to be told to call the people you love when you are away from them? NO."

I guess by definition this could be called a DJ, but come on. I think it is a logical statement. It even says in the MB material that if you love someone you want to spend more time with them, not less. This includes talking on the phone when you are in two different towns. So, I do not accept this as a DJ.

"Why is it every time something bothers me it is my problem and not allowed to actually be her problem."

This may be taken as a DJ by saying I am assuming that someone has said "it is my problem and not my W's," and no one has. However, a lot of people have written posts indicating that most of these things are my problem apparently. So i guess this last sentence I just wrote is also a DJ.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> When you carry on like this, it makes it pretty clear that there's no way on earth your wife can be secure from the "bad mother" and "bad wife" finger being pointed at her by you because there will always be some imperfection you can find to pounce on if you're really determined to play the wife-at-fault game. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am sorry, but I do not see the same "clarity" you are reffering to. I do not feel I am setting my standards of feeling loved too high. Realistically, my standards would be considered pretty low to most. I am asking for the basics here: Love, Trust, Faithfulness and Respect. I am willing to give her the same thing.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm sure if one of us lived in your house for a week, we could find a bunch of little things that we could build up just as big a bruhaha over about how they make you a baaaad father. Do those little things actually made you a bad father? Nope. Does someone saying so make you a bad father? Nope. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK. I believe anyone could find the negative if they are looking for it.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 1. Unhappiness because of the uncertainty your son faced, and discomfort because you weren't sure what to do about it.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will admit that I was also hurt because when I told my W I was not going to call her because I understood she would be busy, I did not mean I was willing to accept that she not call at all during a day. Perhaps I should have been more clear, but I do not think this clarity is fair. If you love someone, one would think you would want to speak to them. This is not a DJ by the way.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You keep skipping steps in dealing with your own feelings. You go straight from I'm-unhappy to wife-at-fault without any kind of pause or realistic evaluation.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right. I am unhappy because of a continual perception of a lack of love for me due to specific actions (or lack of actions) from my W. I do own my own feelings. My feelings are that I have been hurt and rejected for a very long time and I am a little bitter about this. The angry bitterness is part of a healing process, such as grieving over the loss of a loved one.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Step 3: Look at the situation that is contributing to your feelings, and most importantly look at YOUR contributions to the situation. When deciding what to change, THIS is the part where you can actually do something constructive, instead of all this finger-pointing hysteria. Ok, so there's some details you didn't settle with your wife before she left. Big deal. If that makes her a bad mother, then it also makes you a bad father. Not so fun when it's dished out equally, is it? But neither of you are bad parents, you just didn't magicaly forsee all details to settle in a new situation. So you can handle it. I made some suggestions how in my previous post. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You cannot be very constructive here if your feelings are actually based from the actions of another. How someone makes you feel, is not something you can actually change yourself. This is a basic MB philosophy, is it not?

MOS, thanks for your post. I understand and deeply respect that you are trying very hard to maintain middle ground when you offer me advice or a slam in the head. I hear what you are saying with regards to my allowing my W to change, but I cannot change the hurt that I feel based off of hurtful actions. Being made to feel not that important in her thoughts to even get a 2 minute good night call, does hurt, even if I agreed to just wait for her to call. I am not going to be hurt any less just because I agree to not be hurt. This is near to impossible. I am trying to look at things she does in a different light and to not be as sensitive to some of the actions she does that used to really bother me, because I do love her and want to give our M the best chance possible. However, I also do feel that I have been hurt for such a long time that I, at times, probably try to over compensate, (just as she is doing), for my hurt. I need her to at least start seeing how her actions hurt me. I am trying to see how mine hurt her. She is admittedly not open to doing even this right now.

Mys -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Thanks for clarifying, actually all that does help a lot. The main question is… what are you doing differently this time?

I can list a few probable things, you told your wife it was good for her to go out with her friends and you told her to call you when she feels ready to call you. Did I miss any?

Is she doing anything differently? I don’t get the impression going out with her friends is different.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, yes, aside from doing the work I do when she is here (both at work and home) I am picking up double duty along with other household things and our S. As far as her doing anything differently, not really. She has said she does not need to do anything differently and that I am the one who needs to change. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I cannot tell you how much it hurts to hear her say this. This is a complete disregard and invalidation of my feelings and me as a person.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, ok, stop and take a breath for a moment. The two things you told your wife explicitly are 1.) that you hope she has a chance to go out with her friends because she hasn’t seen them in a long time and 2.) that you don’t mind if she calls you when she can and you don’t expect her to call you every night. Right? Wrong?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not quite. I told my W that I hoped she got a chance to see a particular girl friend (who she refers to as her BEST friend) because she has not seen her in a while. this did not include going out with her and some guys.... About the calling, all I said was that I understood she would be busy and I would not know her schedule and in the hospital it can be difficult to call, so I would not call her and leave it up to her to call us. I never said I would be fine with her not calling at all during the day.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So, are you telling me that even though you OFFERED those things to her freely, she should somehow KNOW that it will hurt your feelings, decline your offer, give you credit for offering and still not go out with her friends and still call you every night whether she wants to or not? Is that your definition of trust?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, my definition of trust is that she gets together with her girl friend and catches up. This does not necessaarily mean a night on the town with a band, the friend's boyfriend and his buddies. It also does not mean, do not call for days. Remember, part of MB and building trust is to give information to your partner, including what you are doing and when. This is not a form of control as much as offering a platform to be trusted.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You and I need to level set here. I tend to think of being trusted as being trusted at my word. If I tell someone to “Go ahead and have a good time.” then my expectation is that they go out and have a good time. I’d be very irritated if they decided to outsmart me by staying in and being miserable all the while lamenting that’s what I wanted them to do after I told them something different.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I happen to agree with this statement.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I’d like you to at least consider the possibility that she’s trying to trust your WORDS.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would consider this, but I think after my clarification above, you would agree that she could not be following my "exact words."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> *sighs* You’re not wrong for feeling slighted, EL. I’m really not saying that. But, given the fact that you verbally TOLD your wife to go out and have a good time with these people, it does seem a bit uncharitable to be angry with her if she goes. If it really bothers you that much, then you should risk her anger and ire and just tell her so. If you aren’t being honest with her, then how can you really expect her to trust you?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually understanding what I encouraged and what she is talking about doing are two different things. Throw in the fact that what she is talking about doing (which is not what I encouraged) is something she will not do with me and this spells HURT for me. Now, if I take the true MB line and try to "discuss" things with her over the phone (if and when she happens to call) then I would upset her because she will take it as I am going back on my word and sending her mixed messages, which of course I am not "using exact words." Besides, since I am going to only get a few precious moments in this week to actually speak to my beloved, I think we both agree that being upbeat and accepting whatever she says and "becoming the type of person you would like to be around," will bear more fruit for me in the long run. Therefore, I have difficulties with some of the things that happen and come hear to vent and get you take on her actions. I look for support for my hurt feelings as well as better understanding as to how to continue.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This is a lot like mercy sex. If your wife said it was OK to have sex with her then curled up in a ball saying she felt used and dirty afterward how easy would it be for you to trust anything she said was ok?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of Course, but it is all in the difference of what I really agreed to and what she may have interpreted in her own mind as to what I was agreeing to. This in a way is a DJ on her part to expect me to be OK and not have hurt feelings because she is doing what she thinks I agreed to and ignoring my true words.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So, the real question is how much is this going to bother you? Since you’ve all ready told her it was OK, can you really BE OK with it? Or, do you need to take a step back and confess to her that it’s NOT OK and take responsibility for negotiating with her. (And, yes, you need to expect that she might have a few negative emotions about it.) But, in the long run it’s going to be less damaging then her coming home and picking up on your seething resentment about the issue.

Either choose right here, right now to be OK with it or step up to the plate and speak your mind.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Given the situation and my maintaining the goal of moving our M along towards bliss at the fastest rate possible, I really do not have a choice but to accept this. Therefore, I have been accepting it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mmmm.. I think you’re confusing withdrawal with only wanting her needs to be met. Aside from asking you not to bring certain subjects up, I can’t think of any needs that she’s willingly offered to let you meet. I was under the impression that was part of the larger problem.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No. She also lets me fill her need for finances. She lets me fill her need for domestic things. When I try to compliment her on something that she has not done for a very long time and it is something that I find to be very nice and encourages me that we will be good again some day, she feels compelled to say something like "well, it is because you are finally realizing what I am doing." I have learned now to not accept this challenge of a fight and just let this drop, but it is not easy. She has also made staements towards my needs as not being realistic or right or real and that my fulfilling her needs is what I should do because it is WHAT I SHOULD DO. How insulting is this?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, pulling her out of withdrawal will help with this a lot.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Weren't you telling me that she was in and out of withdrawl and this is why I should move towards the next level of being more firm with my needs? So if this is actually the case and some of the time she is actually outside of withdrawl, why is it she still does not see her contribution to the current state of our M and how she has hurt me? The funny thing is that a lot of things she has done, like the few times we have actually had sex over the last few years, she will say she did it because she did not want to dissapoint me. How can she actually be concerned with this, yet continue to ignore my needs? How can she really be serious and then make, what looks to me, to be a half baked effort?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I’m so glad to hear she’s doing well. That’s the most important part of any of this, isn’t it?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, you are right. She is doing ok. My W called while I was responding to all of these posts and we talked for about two minutes. Apparently her brother is up to his old tricks and skipped work for the last three days, skipped another court appointment today and is on his way to see my W because he "needs to talk with her." My W, her sister and her Mom are all stressed out about her brother. So, he continues to add to the misery of the entire situation.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It’s only a choice between the two if you force it to be one. She can have both. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We are saying the same thing here. I even combined the idea with, call for 2 minutes and say "good-night, I am going out tonight," and then go out.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> All right, but which activity sounds more FUN? Which activity sounds more STRESS relieving? Driving X number of hours on a Friday night doesn’t sound as much fun to me as a night off with my gal pals. Maybe it would be more fun to YOU… but then you and I have very different definitions of fun.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Personally, if I were in the same situation, I would drive back because I would feel pretty guilty knowing that I put my W under extra pressure so that I could handle a family emergency, and then just went out when I could have gotten home. Besides, I would have been home sick by then anyway, because I am an old romantic. So I guess we are different.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, it depends on what question you’re asking. If you’re asking how to stop smothering her, then the answer really is to stop trying to limit her behavior so much. You’re not where she is right now. Expecting her to not see any of her friends while you’re not there is smothering. Not wanting her to have fun with anyone else until she learns to have fun with you is smothering and controlling. I think you should be worried about scale and excess but your wife doesn’t seem to have a busy social schedule usually. Occasional nights out aren’t as much of a problem as if she were going out every weekend, right?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right, she does not go out every weekend and I do not wish to smother or control her. I do have a question on duality though. If it is controling and smothering for me to not want my W to go out and have fun with others until she learns to have fun with me again, is it not equally as controlling of her to expect me to wait for her to have fun with others, before she becomes willing to once again learn to have fun with her own H? Do you see the duality here?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> As for how to get her to focus on having fun WITH you instead of always associating fun activities to those that DON’T include you the only answer I can think of is that you learn to do things that she finds fun. I don’t understand why she doesn’t want to do the same things while you’re there than she does when you aren’t. About the only thing I can think of from what you’ve told me is your past statements that she feels you act jealous or possessive when her friends are around. It might be that those situations make her uncomfortable because she’s worried about you saying or doing something that appears jealous or that you might get angry with her for having a good time or something. I’m not saying that’s true, I’m just speculating based on some of your past descriptions.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The problem here is that I do like to do things she considers to be fun. Lets take socializing and drinking (not that we are lushes, but you know what I mean). She is not excited about going out to a couple of bars with me and when we do go out, she usually ends up being very tired by say 10:00 PM. When she is around old friends (some of which she cares very little for) she is energized to go bar hoping and be out until 3:30 - 4:00AM. This makes me feel hurt. It would hurt any spouse.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Like you, I don’t find “She’s too tired” as particularly illuminating. What types of activities did you two enjoy when you were dating? I know you had a long distance relationship for some time so maybe those activities were limited. What sorts of things do you enjoy doing together? Are you saying that she doesn’t do anything she finds fun with you or that she only doesn’t do certain things with you? I didn’t really have the impression that you two didn’t have any way to have fun together.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, we really do not have that many things to do with each other that are fun. We both have not had much time. The problem what I think is fun, she only really wants to do with other people. What she ends up wanting to do with me, I do not think is too fun. Therefore, I do not know how to transition this. You see, how do you get your spouse, who is supposed to be your best friend, to have fun with you as if we were friends, like her old friends? Plus, since we started out in a long distant relationship and became pregnant very ealry in the relationship, we missed the honeymoon stage of our relationship. Now that our S is old enough to have a baby siter some of the time, I would like to be able to pick up where we left off and have some of that missing honeymoon stage. This is part of the reason my W says she does not want to have a baby because we are now at a stage to work on us.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, yeah, but you do the same thing. Is it because you have dishonest intentions? For example, you told her you were fine with her going out with her friends but you aren’t. Or, at least you certainly don’t seem to be fine with it. You also don’t seem very fine with her not calling you to say goodnight every evening. Isn’t the reason because you were afraid of her reaction to that news?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, you see, this is dangerous territory because I am caught in a delima. Basically, you are correct, I am not totally fine with some of these things and yet I am trying to be so I tell her I am ok with somethings that I feel I should be, but am not quite there yet. However, this is because I have accepted that I need to be better about some things based upon what I have learned since April. However, I am also very aware that my W is not at a point to be very forgiving to me if something happens (even if it is innocent on my part) and she mis-inturprets it as me being controling or jealous or not behaving in a way she feels I should naturally be behaving in. Now her reaction is not right or fair, but I also understand I cannot change her, it is up to her to change herself. with this understanding, I now must choose which thing is the lesser of the two evils for the greater good and better outcome for our M. Do you see what I mean or do you need more explanation here?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I really don’t think she’s trying to pull anything over on you, Extremely Lost. I think she just wants to go out with her friends and not feel guilty because she chooses to do that instead of hopping behind the wheel of a car and driving X hours to get home to you and your son. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sure, I can understand that, but do you think she feels guilty when she rejects me on going out when I am with her at her home town? Do you think she even realizes this hurts me?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It is unfair. But, if you want her to be honest with you, then you have to help remove some of the fears she has about being honest with you. That means you need to be very, very respectful of her wishes to go out and have a good time even if you’re feeling a little jealous. You can be truthful and tell her that you’re feeling a bit jealous and make a thoughtful request for a little extra attention when she gets back, but if you’re going to punish her each time she tells you the truth, she’s going to learn not to tell you the truth. And, by punishing her, I mean use that as a springboard to manipulate her into choosing your way without negotiation. Please understand that saying “Oh yes, honey, I don’t mind if you go.” then acting resentful about the fact that she made that choice is passive aggressive punishment. By the same token telling her “No, you MUST not go.” and not letting her make the choice is a Selfish Demand. All you can do is tell her how you feel about her and then be open to negotiating a way for her to help you feel enthusiastic that doesn't ALWAYS exclude the activity she wants to do.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You see, it goes back to ideally I should be able to tell her exactly how I feel, unfortunately, she is not at a point of accepting how I feel as ok and that I am working on improving my outlook. She is at a point of I am either good (acting/feeling how she thinks I should feel) or I am bad (acting/feeling in some way she does not agree with). There is no ability to negotiate at this time as you are aware. Therefore, I am left to accept the current situation we are in while at the same time enticing her out of withdrawl. Well, I am not going to be able to entice her out of withdrawl by being "bad" in her eyes.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I really don’t know what’s going on there. I just don’t have enough information.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know. She has said one of her worries is that I will act as I did over four years ago, which is the last and first time she took me out with her friends. I was fine while we were out, but she ended up hanging out with a guy and singing a romantic kareoki song with him. Later I find out they used to date. Yeah, I was a little jealous and self concious since this guys was in her town and I was currently living several states away and I just recently found out she was carrying our baby. Sorry, I am a falable human.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Oh, give me a break. Extremely Lost, I doubt the reason she is feeling guilty that she doesn’t have enough feelings for you and your son. I think she’s feeling guilty because when she calls instead of hearing how you guys are doing fine, she hears how your son waited up until past midnight, WITH A COLD, for a call that never came. YEESH. That makes ME feel bad and I’m not even his mother. She calls and she gets this guilt trip laid on her for not calling after you told her she didn’t need to call and you wonder why she doesn’t want to talk to you?! I wouldn’t want to talk to you, either.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I never said she did not have to talk to us. I told her to call us when she could. There is a difference. When I am away for work or whatever or even am going to be late, she expects me to call and if I don't she gets on me about it. Why is it now, not good enough for her to do?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This is when you really need to get a hold of your doom and gloom and present a calm, cheerful, supportive voice on the line. THAT’S attractive. THAT’S who I want to talk to.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I did that last night and today. I will try to continue it when she calls again.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Your plan is to start to assert your needs and make thoughtful requests to have them met after the New Year. So, we’re talking January. Up until January, I’d like you to try as hard as you possibly can to .. if not fill her love bank.. refrain from making substantial withdrawals.

So, short term is about four more weeks. You gonna make it?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">With the help from you good people, I am hopeful.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You squander that trust each and every time your words do not match your actions. Telling her something is OK to do then resenting her for doing it is squandering her trust.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yes, she does need to pull her weight in this marriage. But, you have a plan. Your plan is to assert this after the New Year. Are we still on board for that plan?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I hope you are still willing to help me in the new year.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hey, I actually like this list a lot. Maybe it’s a nice summary you can take to your MC sessions when you talk about your needs? What do you think?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks. Yeah, Maybe I can come up with a more to the point list than the last one I tried to present in MC.

LFC -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I have tried to stay off this thread today becuase it is a little too much for me. But I just can't help it so here I am
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for tuning in. I do like your posts and input. Thanks. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Please. For one week. Get over yourself.

For one week simply focus on the things you need to be doing yourself. Work on you.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will try.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You spend an incredible amount of time laboriously nitpicking every little thing your wife does. We rarely hear you humbly ask for ture help that you then accept. We frequently hear you ask for help and then respond to advice by pointing out every reason why your resentment for your wife and reasons for doing the things you do the way you do them - is perfectly justified.

Well of course you have reasons for doing things. We don't argue that. But it is pretty obvious that those strategies aren't working. So time to try something else.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Fair enough.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I honestly couldn't stand to read today becuase I felt so bad for your wife.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Personnally I don not think that is a fair assessment, especially since some things I said were not properly inturpreted. I hope my post today offers some justifiable clarity.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Here she is trying to juggle family illness - a tumor no less (it sounded so much LESS serious in how you described it) and you are worried about you. You are even, in this latest post, begrudging her a moment of unwinding and recovering by going out with friends before coming home to worry about your needs and your son.

Give her a break just this once before you doom and gloom. Please.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am sorry you see me as this horrible person. I really am not this bad. I will try to be very gracious towards my W.

Please take care of yourself to LFC.

Thanks to all,

EL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Extremely Lost:
<strong> MOS -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Wow, that's got to be some kind of record for maximum number of DJs in a minimum amount of space. It's a beautiful example of what I meant though.......

Excercise for the student: go back over your post and identify all the DJs.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, here goes:

"You see, we are at the point (I feel) that by my mere calling my W while she is out of town, I am bothering her or it is considered an LB at this point."

One could consider this to be a DJ. However, one must examine the definition of my W relaying information to me. For example, has my W actually said the words: "You are bothering me when you call me" to me? The answer is no. Has my W reacted in very negative ways to my calling her even when I kept the calls LB less (and I know you probably think I am not capable of this, but I am)? The answer to this is Yes. Therefore, it is not a DJ because my W has communicated to me that it does in fact bother her when I call her, even if she did not say the exact words.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nope, that's still a DJ. She could easily have been reacting negatively to something other than the fact that you called -- what you had to say or the tone of voice you used, for example. Until you ask her and she says that she is upset by the fact that you called, any saying that is the case is a DJ.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

"My issue comes from the fact that in a normal, loving relationship, or family situation for that matter, someone should not need to be told, reminded, asked to call their H or their S when they are out of town, especially to say good night. This person should feel internally compelled and internally desired to call and speak with their H and/or S in this situation. I know I would."

This statement may be called a DJ. However, it is something I believe and am not saying it just about my W. I am saying it applies to everyone, including myself. In this text, it is not a DJ.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nope, that's still a DJ. You're claiming you are the authority who gets to decide what's right for everyone, and that is not the case.

This would not be a DJ: "Oh, I'd just assumed you'd call S to say goodnight, and I was really surprised that wasn't a given, but then I don't know the situation at your mother's at this time".

But what you're saying is a massive DJ.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
"She knows he struggles and waits up for her to say good night to him."

Some may take this as a DJ, but it truly is not. My W would tell you this.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok, since she said that, it's not a DJ, just a reporting of what she's said.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

"Its a small price to pay to pick up a phone and spend 2 minutes on it. Especially when you are just sitting around watching TV for four hours."

Again, I could see how someone would take these words as a DJ, but again it is not. My W actually told me this is what they were doing. Therefore, this is not a DJ.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nope, that's a huge DJ. You're deciding you know better than she does what she needs to be doing in this very delicate and trying situation, and that is simply not possible.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

"Do you have to be told to call the people you love when you are away from them? NO."

I guess by definition this could be called a DJ, but come on. I think it is a logical statement. It even says in the MB material that if you love someone you want to spend more time with them, not less. This includes talking on the phone when you are in two different towns. So, I do not accept this as a DJ.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Doesn't matter whether you accept it, it's still a huge DJ. Someone not meeting YOUR UNSPOKEN EXPECTATIONS as to when they should call has nothing to do with a lack of love -- that connection is entirely your own invention. This is a case where you need to be owning your feelings and your contribution to the situation. Your contribution to the situation is that you haven't asked for what you want clearly and respectfully -- you've sent mixed messages all over the place.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

"Why is it every time something bothers me it is my problem and not allowed to actually be her problem."

This may be taken as a DJ by saying I am assuming that someone has said "it is my problem and not my W's," and no one has. However, a lot of people have written posts indicating that most of these things are my problem apparently. So i guess this last sentence I just wrote is also a DJ.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yup, it is, and it's another example of your fondness for grandstanding language. Where did you ever pick up this drama queen thing anyway? It seems so at odds with most of your personality.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> When you carry on like this, it makes it pretty clear that there's no way on earth your wife can be secure from the "bad mother" and "bad wife" finger being pointed at her by you because there will always be some imperfection you can find to pounce on if you're really determined to play the wife-at-fault game. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am sorry, but I do not see the same "clarity" you are reffering to. I do not feel I am setting my standards of feeling loved too high. Realistically, my standards would be considered pretty low to most. I am asking for the basics here: Love, Trust, Faithfulness and Respect. I am willing to give her the same thing.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Uh, but you're not. You're not trusting her capability to balance her responsibilities while at her mother's in the best way she can -- instead you're going on long rants on how wrong she is. A big pile of DJs is not loving. These rants show neither faith nor respect.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm sure if one of us lived in your house for a week, we could find a bunch of little things that we could build up just as big a bruhaha over about how they make you a baaaad father. Do those little things actually made you a bad father? Nope. Does someone saying so make you a bad father? Nope. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK. I believe anyone could find the negative if they are looking for it.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sure, and it's not even hard. I suspect you need a replacement activity. Months of people telling you to stop nitpicking at your wife doesn't seem to be getting you far, but then, simply stopping a bad habit is a lot harder than replacing it with a positive one.

As for finding a replacement activity, I don't know -- that's where a good cognitive-behavioral therapist would come in.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 1. Unhappiness because of the uncertainty your son faced, and discomfort because you weren't sure what to do about it.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will admit that I was also hurt because when I told my W I was not going to call her because I understood she would be busy, I did not mean I was willing to accept that she not call at all during a day. Perhaps I should have been more clear, but I do not think this clarity is fair. If you love someone, one would think you would want to speak to them. This is not a DJ by the way.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yup, that's a big DJ, whether you agree or not. You're not giving your wife even a fighting chance to meet your wishes -- you're keeping what you actually want so mixed up and muddied that no one could keep up.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You keep skipping steps in dealing with your own feelings. You go straight from I'm-unhappy to wife-at-fault without any kind of pause or realistic evaluation.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right. I am unhappy because of a continual perception of a lack of love for me due to specific actions (or lack of actions) from my W. I do own my own feelings. My feelings are that I have been hurt and rejected for a very long time and I am a little bitter about this. The angry bitterness is part of a healing process, such as grieving over the loss of a loved one.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok, can you see the DJ in there? You've felt hurt and rejected for a long time, that doesn't mean than anyone actually rejected you.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Step 3: Look at the situation that is contributing to your feelings, and most importantly look at YOUR contributions to the situation. When deciding what to change, THIS is the part where you can actually do something constructive, instead of all this finger-pointing hysteria. Ok, so there's some details you didn't settle with your wife before she left. Big deal. If that makes her a bad mother, then it also makes you a bad father. Not so fun when it's dished out equally, is it? But neither of you are bad parents, you just didn't magicaly forsee all details to settle in a new situation. So you can handle it. I made some suggestions how in my previous post. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You cannot be very constructive here if your feelings are actually based from the actions of another. How someone makes you feel, is not something you can actually change yourself. This is a basic MB philosophy, is it not?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know, I'm not sure if anything I can say here is going to be helpful. You're so far gone in victimspeak that I have know idea how to say anything that will even make sense in that kind of context.

I'll give it a shot... At the most fundamental level, your feelings are not caused by anyone else or anyone else's actions. Your feelings are based on how you choose to act and how you choose to handle someone else's actions. This basic shift in perception is what I mean when I say to own your feelings -- someone who owns their feelings would never say that someone else causes them. The phone call issue was not in any way caused by a lack of love -- you completely made that up. The phone call issue was simply caused by a breakdown in communication. All your hurt over the issue IS NOT CAUSED BY YOUR WIFE; it is caused by your choice to point fingers and throw DJs rather than resolve the situation respectfully.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
MOS, thanks for your post. I understand and deeply respect that you are trying very hard to maintain middle ground when you offer me advice or a slam in the head. I hear what you are saying with regards to my allowing my W to change, but I cannot change the hurt that I feel based off of hurtful actions.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You can change how you deal with actions and situations, and to build a good marriage, you're simply going to have to give up all this blame-seeking sooner or later.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Being made to feel not that important in her thoughts to even get a 2 minute good night call, does hurt, even if I agreed to just wait for her to call. I am not going to be hurt any less just because I agree to not be hurt.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You don't have to agree not to be hurt. You do need to understand and accept that the connection between not calling on a certain schedule and lack of love is something you made up and has nothing to do with reality. You also need to take responsibility for your share in the communication breakdown and the mixed messages you've been sending. "Yeah, ok, but she should have done what I want anyway" DOES NOT qualify as taking responsibility for your actions.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
This is near to impossible. I am trying to look at things she does in a different light and to not be as sensitive to some of the actions she does that used to really bother me, because I do love her and want to give our M the best chance possible. However, I also do feel that I have been hurt for such a long time that I, at times, probably try to over compensate, (just as she is doing), for my hurt. I need her to at least start seeing how her actions hurt me.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, agreed, but you're blaming her when YOUR actions hurt you. YOU didn't ask clearly for what you want. Blaming her for the outcome of that choice is, well, outrageous victimspeak.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

I am trying to see how mine hurt her.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know you are. And I know getting out of the victim mindset and manner of speaking is really hard and takes sustained self-examination. I wish I knew better how to help with that, but all I really know to say is "nope, that's not it, that's still victimspeak".

El -


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am sorry you see me as this horrible person. I really am not this bad. I will try to be very gracious towards my W. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I didn't say you were horrible. anywhere. it doesn't help you to do grandstanding like this.

I actually think you are probably a very nice guy. With, like all of us here, some things to learn about M.

*hugs* I know this is hard for you. I want you to hear that again. I know this is hard for you. It sucks. It does. and I'm sorry for that.

I think you are working very hard and that is good. I have no ill will towards you. Mys has you in capable hands and so I leave her to that.

I'm gonna stay away from this thread for a little while. FYI. But before I go... I just wanted to say one last thing. You can't change your wife. You can only change you. So try to put your energy into changing you. This doesn't mean you give up your dream of a better M... it is, in fact, the only option you have to achieve that dream.

Because you can only change yourself.

Think about, when you post next, how much of your post is vent... and how much is asking about how you can change yourself. Everyone needs to vent sometime - so don't feel like you can't, but maybe think about where your energy is going right now, and how you can focus it on making yourself a better H.

peace to you
lfc

Extremely Lost

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> OK, the evil EL steps into view...... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, stop it! *playful nudge* You know we wouldn’t spend this much time with you if we didn’t care about you so you must have SOME redeeming qualities. Er.. that’s one theory, at least. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am a logical person, no really I am. I can take a look at something and say, gee, so many people disagree with my points that I really must consider that I am wrong, or not getting something. So, this is what I am going to try and do. I think one of my personal issues is that I do not provide enough information about statements I make, and therefore, I get called on it because you guys are drawing the only conclusions you can based upon what I wrote. However, in my mind, I feel as though I am explaining things well enough, but obviously I am not. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, it definitely is hard to achieve dialogue over a message board. Assumptions are often made and have to be clarified later.

However, I have another theory about why our dialogues sometimes come across as disjointed as they are. I don’t necessarily think it’s the way you explain yourself but rather that we have very different world views. Take this statement, for example:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "My issue comes from the fact that in a normal, loving relationship, or family situation for that matter, someone should not need to be told, reminded, asked to call their H or their S when they are out of town, especially to say good night. This person should feel internally compelled and internally desired to call and speak with their H and/or S in this situation. I know I would." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You see, fundamentally, you and I disagree on this statement. I don’t necessarily believe that I would be internally compelled or desired to call home all the time when I’m out of town. There are various reasons I might or might not call. In fact, I’ve been known to tell my H, ”This is how you can reach me if you need me. Now, try not to need me.” I didn’t mean him any ill will or loose my love for him. In that particular situation I had way, way more than I could handle all ready on my plate and even a 2 minute phone obligation at the end of the day would be the straw that broke me. I’ve also not called him when I was out of town recreationally. Or, he hasn’t always called me when he’s out of town. Now, I WILL say that we always have these expectations set ahead of time… I won’t not call him when I’ve told him I’m going to call him unless there is a very good reason (no phone service). And, as a matter of course we try to always have a method of getting in touch with each other when we’re not together.

So, to be very honest with you, I think your standard of communication when you’re apart is very, very high. If you and I were married, for example, there would have to be some serious negotiation going on because I would find your requests to be unnecessarily restrictive and probably quite inconvenient. Your assertion that this type of communication always happens in ‘normal, loving relationships’ simply doesn’t meet with my experience. To be fair, when we’re apart we usually do TRY to have daily communication of some sort.

Just for comparison, we’ve been apart for longer than a week with absolutely no communication and it hasn’t really damaged the trust or love between us. Sometimes that’s just the way it is.

I don’t want you to get the impression that I’m not listening to you or that I don’t understand that you really want this daily contact. I don’t dispute that at all. I even understand WHY you want this contact and, I think, how much it means to you. What I do disagree with is that any ‘normal person’ would have the same standard of contact and therefore she is doing something out of some malicious intent or because she’s uncaring. As much as you assert that she MUST know this bothers you and how much it bothers you, it is hard for me to believe that is true because the arguments for WHY she has to know tend to focus on how ‘anyone’ would know this. Well, I wouldn’t know this unless you told me. My H certainly wouldn’t know it. In fact, we had to work all this communication while away from each other stuff out as we went along. I remember one time I was the one out of town and he promised me he’d call me at a certain time. The time came and went… no call. So, I called him. He wasn’t home. I left a message and waited… and waited.. and waited. Eventually, I started to get worried.. then I got frantic… he’d always been so reliable before, what if he was in an accident?! No one was home to know he was missing. I was just about to try and figure out how to call local hospitals and check for John Doe’s when he finally checked messages and called me. I was FURIOUS. After all, he told me he would call! Well, he got busy and distracted and figured he’d call when he was done. He had no clue that I’d be imagining him bleeding on the side of a roadway somewhere. After that, we agreed that if we made a time to call each other that would be honored or, if that wasn’t possible, at least get a message or call as soon as possible. So, you see, we had to make an explicit agreement about something that you or I might take for granted that ‘everyone knows.’ In my experience, he doesn’t know unless we explicitly work it out. Details are your friend.

Extremely Lost, it’s really not my intention to attack you or to dismiss your feelings. I believe that your feelings are very real and very valid. I also understand that your wife isn’t in the best place for productive communication at this time. What I am trying to do is to help you question some of the hard and fast beliefs that you have about what ‘she knows’ or what ‘everyone knows.’ One of the rules I’ve found to be very helpful in my marriage (it’s a rule for myself) is never to assume that he is doing something with the specific intent to harass, hurt, annoy, scare, injure, or inconvenience me. Most of the time, he’s doing it for some reason that makes perfect sense to him and, at worst, he didn’t consider the impact on me. It’s not because he doesn’t love me, it’s because sometimes he just doesn’t see what effects his actions are going to have and sometimes he’s just plain lazy (that’s not a DJ, he’s sitting right here and he says it’s true). This is why Radical Honesty is so important and why Disrespectful Judgments are so damaging. If you feel you don’t have to be honest with your wife because after all, she should know this then you are doing her and yourself a great disservice.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Before I begin, I would like to say that my W and I had a very good conversation on the phone last night. I did tell her that she needs time for herself and to take care of herself and I hope she did get a chance to see her girlfriend. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, when you said this, can you understand how she’s probably not going to understand that you only want her to see her girlfriend since you’ve known for awhile (though not at first) that those plans include other people?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> However, this does not change the fact that I am still very hurt about my W not going out with me when with or without her friends when I am in that area with her. But either way, we did have our best phone call yet and hopefully it was positive enough that she looks forward to talking with me today, however, she has not called me yet and had called me by this time three other days this week. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good, I’m glad you had a good talk. I’ll say more about the going out thing later on.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, yes, aside from doing the work I do when she is here (both at work and home) I am picking up double duty along with other household things and our S. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I’m not sure you answered the question I intended to ask. The question I intended to ask was: “What are you doing differently than you’ve done other times she’s away to make this time work out better (differently) than all your prior bad experiences?”

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She has said she does not need to do anything differently and that I am the one who needs to change. I cannot tell you how much it hurts to hear her say this. This is a complete disregard and invalidation of my feelings and me as a person. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When does she say stuff like this? Can you give me some specific context here? When was the most recent time?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Not quite. I told my W that I hoped she got a chance to see a particular girl friend (who she refers to as her BEST friend) because she has not seen her in a while. this did not include going out with her and some guys.... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, yes. And, I do understand that originally that’s all you thought it was. However, at some point before she went, you were told that the plans included other people. Since you didn’t speak up then, I would have assumed you were all right with the evening. I’d assume it even more strongly after your conversation the other night.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> About the calling, all I said was that I understood she would be busy and I would not know her schedule and in the hospital it can be difficult to call, so I would not call her and leave it up to her to call us. I never said I would be fine with her not calling at all during the day. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I would take that statement as use my discretion and that there was no specific compelling reason to call. Extremely Lost, I have to tell you that since I knew you had a way to contact me if anything urgent happened (your son or you got sick), I would just do what I felt like and if I was tired at the end of the evening, I wouldn’t have thought twice about not calling you. Since I’d all ready spoken to you that day, my expectation would be that you didn’t need to hear from me until the next day.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> No, my definition of trust is that she gets together with her girl friend and catches up. This does not necessaarily mean a night on the town with a band, the friend's boyfriend and his buddies. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, since you found out about it and didn’t say anything about it, how is she supposed to know it’s a problem? I would see this as a different situation if she let you believe that it was only a night out with her girl friend and then AFTER the fact it came out that she went out with other people.

Once again, let’s apply the ‘reasonable Myschae test’ (ie. would I feel this is reasonable behavior). Well, she’s going out with a group of people not one on one with another man. She’s primarily going out with her girl friend who wants to bring her boyfriend along (pretty standard stuff). The focus of the evening seems to be to ‘catch up’ and to listen to a friends band play. *shrugs* If this was every weekend or even monthly I’d probably be concerned. But, considering it’s old home town buddies and she’s never given you reason not to trust her, I think this is reasonable.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It also does not mean, do not call for days. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What would happen if she didn’t call for days? I mean.. my reasonable standard for this type of visit (taking care of a sick relative) would be 1 call when the party arrives at the destination. Calls after the surgery with updates on how MIL is doing or during surgery if it’s taking longer than expected. One call towards the end of the week with an update on MIL’s condition and an eta on when I can come home. I’d expect maybe 2-3 calls in a week, mostly focused on directly following surgery and if there were medical updates to be made. Otherwise, I know where he is or he knows where I am and which ever one of us is there is probably BUSY. My expectation is that he can manage 1 week (or even longer if necessary) without me. Or, conversely, if he was there that he should call when he’s available to talk and to give me updates on the sick person’s condition but shouldn’t make special efforts on my behalf.

No, I realize that YOU don’t feel that’s reasonable. I am not asking you to. I am trying to point out that reasonable people can disagree on a topic like this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Remember, part of MB and building trust is to give information to your partner, including what you are doing and when. This is not a form of control as much as offering a platform to be trusted. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, sure. But, you all ready KNOW what she’s doing, don’t you? She’s taking care of her mother who just had surgery and possibly (probably) going out with her friends one evening. You know where she is, why she’s there, and the basics of what she’s doing. She knows where you are, why you’re there, and the basics of what you’re doing. You don’t really need a blow by blow account of her helping your MIL to the bathroom or getting her a drink of water. It not like she vanished for a week and you didn’t know where she was or what she was doing. Seriously, what more communication is needed in this instance (aside from updates on MIL’s condition)?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I would consider this, but I think after my clarification above, you would agree that she could not be following my "exact words." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">*sighs* Well, all right, bad on her for assuming your consent extended to including other people in her evening out.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Actually understanding what I encouraged and what she is talking about doing are two different things. Throw in the fact that what she is talking about doing (which is not what I encouraged) is something she will not do with me and this spells HURT for me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, what really is the problem? Is the problem that you think she’s truly mis-interpreting your words in an unreasonable, unrealistic way? Or, is the problem really with the idea that she’s doing something with other people that you wish she’d do with you? They are very different problems.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Now, if I take the true MB line and try to "discuss" things with her over the phone (if and when she happens to call) then I would upset her because she will take it as I am going back on my word and sending her mixed messages, which of course I am not "using exact words." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, sure, but it was clear to you that your ‘exact words’ didn’t match her intent before she left for her mother’s house. You didn’t clarify then so my inclination is to say that her belief isn’t unreasonable.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Besides, since I am going to only get a few precious moments in this week to actually speak to my beloved, I think we both agree that being upbeat and accepting whatever she says and "becoming the type of person you would like to be around," will bear more fruit for me in the long run. Therefore, I have difficulties with some of the things that happen and come hear to vent and get you take on her actions. I look for support for my hurt feelings as well as better understanding as to how to continue. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, YES, I do think that being pleasant and upbeat will bear more fruit for you.

I know you come to vent. And, really, I’m trying to be sensitive to your feelings. But, at the same time, I don’t want to feed some of the resentment you’re building because I have a different perspective on those actions which, while it doesn’t make it any less hurtful to you, can explain her actions in an innocuous “It doesn’t mean she doesn’t love you” kind of way.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Of Course, but it is all in the difference of what I really agreed to and what she may have interpreted in her own mind as to what I was agreeing to. This in a way is a DJ on her part to expect me to be OK and not have hurt feelings because she is doing what she thinks I agreed to and ignoring my true words. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, not really. A disrespectful judgment usually is framing someone’s intent negatively. In this case, she’s framing your agreement in a way that she would find POSITIVE instead of NEGATIVE. At least, I assume her thinking you’d not be OK with her going out with other people would be a negative. Do you see the difference?

I can agree that her assumption is INCORRECT, but I don’t think she’s casting you in a negative light at all by making it. Do you?

So, Extremely Lost, are you really trying to tell me that you expect her to take you THAT literally? I mean, I hope you see <friends name> implying that you hope she only sees <friends name> is a bit subtle. We’ve been having a dialogue about it all this time and I didn’t pick up on it till you spelled it out to me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Given the situation and my maintaining the goal of moving our M along towards bliss at the fastest rate possible, I really do not have a choice but to accept this. Therefore, I have been accepting it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Uh huh. But are you going to resent her for it?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> No. She also lets me fill her need for finances. She lets me fill her need for domestic things. When I try to compliment her on something that she has not done for a very long time and it is something that I find to be very nice and encourages me that we will be good again some day, she feels compelled to say something like "well, it is because you are finally realizing what I am doing." I have learned now to not accept this challenge of a fight and just let this drop, but it is not easy. She has also made staements towards my needs as not being realistic or right or real and that my fulfilling her needs is what I should do because it is WHAT I SHOULD DO. How insulting is this? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, it’s quite common for people to not understand that people have very different needs in marriage. We all seem to believe that whatever we define as a ‘good marriage’ is in fact what a ‘good marriage’ is. So, if she doesn’t define a ‘good marriage’ as including sex, then it’s MORE likely that she’d feel the way you describe. After all ‘every body knows’ that a ‘good marriage’ includes <list of her needs>. If this stuff was THAT obvious, Dr. Harley wouldn’t sell very many books.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Weren't you telling me that she was in and out of withdrawl and this is why I should move towards the next level of being more firm with my needs? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, but she’s in and out. Which is why you need to be more assertive. In and out is not all the way out.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So if this is actually the case and some of the time she is actually outside of withdrawl, why is it she still does not see her contribution to the current state of our M and how she has hurt me? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There have been some signs. It does sound like she bounced back in from the stress of her mother’s surgery and probably the bustle of the holidays, too. But, if you remember back, your MC did ask her point blank if she though that ‘some day’ your relationship should become physical and she acknowledged positively. Go back and read some if it helps.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The funny thing is that a lot of things she has done, like the few times we have actually had sex over the last few years, she will say she did it because she did not want to dissapoint me. How can she actually be concerned with this, yet continue to ignore my needs? How can she really be serious and then make, what looks to me, to be a half baked effort? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I don’t really have enough information about what the problem is with the SF between you from her perspective. I’m not sure how difficult it is for her to have SF with you or how she really feels about it. It’s kind of a mystery to me, too at this point.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yes, you are right. She is doing ok. My W called while I was responding to all of these posts and we talked for about two minutes. Apparently her brother is up to his old tricks and skipped work for the last three days, skipped another court appointment today and is on his way to see my W because he "needs to talk with her." My W, her sister and her Mom are all stressed out about her brother. So, he continues to add to the misery of the entire situation </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I’m glad to hear she’s doing all right.

Ugh. Don’t you hate family members who always seem to want to trump whatever crisis is all ready happening with one of their own? It’s irritating.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> We are saying the same thing here. I even combined the idea with, call for 2 minutes and say "good-night, I am going out tonight," and then go out. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Make a thoughtful request that she call you before heading out.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Personally, if I were in the same situation, I would drive back because I would feel pretty guilty knowing that I put my W under extra pressure so that I could handle a family emergency, and then just went out when I could have gotten home. Besides, I would have been home sick by then anyway, because I am an old romantic. So I guess we are different. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Heh. Why am I not surprised?

It’s funny. I’m really not a very romantic person at all. If I had to guess, I’d say my H is probably more romantic than me… yeah, actually, I think that’s true. He’s always been. I think we’re reversed from the norm that way. However, I can also tell you that he’d be out with his buddies rather than driving home to see me, too.

I think it’s a matter of preference. How do you feel about her preference being different than yours? It doesn’t mean she doesn’t love you, you know?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You are right, she does not go out every weekend and I do not wish to smother or control her. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The reason I bring this up is because I do believe that perspective is important. If this was an every week event or even monthly, I’d be concerned. But this sounds like a once in a while (probably not even annual) kind of thing.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I do have a question on duality though. If it is controling and smothering for me to not want my W to go out and have fun with others until she learns to have fun with me again, is it not equally as controlling of her to expect me to wait for her to have fun with others, before she becomes willing to once again learn to have fun with her own H? Do you see the duality here? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I might not understand this question but I’m going to take a stab at it anyway. If I answer a question you didn’t ask, feel free to reframe it for me.

There is a problem if your wife was getting her RC needs regularly met elsewhere – this is a danger that Harley warns about. If she’s allowing other people to regularly fill her RC needs then that can interfere with your ability to meet those needs. Because of that, scale is important and like I mentioned above, I would be VERY concerned if this was a regular event.

Now, I don’t quite understand your assertion that she’s asking you to ‘wait until she has fun with other’s’ before having fun with you. That doesn’t really make sense to me because it’s not so much that she’s asking you to wait, it’s that you’re trying to build the type of relationship in which that happens. WHILE you’re building that relationship, asking her to not have any fun at all .. well, it just doesn’t seem like that would make building a marriage with you an attractive thing to look forward to doing. So, the problem isn’t that the marriage building is waiting until she has her fun (how much did you really think you were going to get done in that one evening?) but rather that your fun together SEEMS contingent on the marriage building.

In other words, I just don’t see this one activity NECESSARILY needing to have a significant impact on your relationship.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The problem here is that I do like to do things she considers to be fun. Lets take socializing and drinking (not that we are lushes, but you know what I mean). She is not excited about going out to a couple of bars with me and when we do go out, she usually ends up being very tired by say 10:00 PM. When she is around old friends (some of which she cares very little for) she is energized to go bar hoping and be out until 3:30 - 4:00AM. This makes me feel hurt. It would hurt any spouse. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, that is kind of disturbing. I get the impression you only went out with her friends the one time? If so, did she act very different with them than she does with you?

When you do go out to bars and such, is it usually alone (just the two of you) or do you go with a group of friends? Or, is it a combination?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Actually, we really do not have that many things to do with each other that are fun. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This can be a BIG problem.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> We both have not had much time. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, time is definitely hard to find. But, it is important to make time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The problem what I think is fun, she only really wants to do with other people. What she ends up wanting to do with me, I do not think is too fun. Therefore, I do not know how to transition this. You see, how do you get your spouse, who is supposed to be your best friend, to have fun with you as if we were friends, like her old friends? Plus, since we started out in a long distant relationship and became pregnant very ealry in the relationship, we missed the honeymoon stage of our relationship. Now that our S is old enough to have a baby siter some of the time, I would like to be able to pick up where we left off and have some of that missing honeymoon stage. This is part of the reason my W says she does not want to have a baby because we are now at a stage to work on us. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Huh. Well, if it helps, I’m as perplexed by this as you are. The only questions I can think to ask are whether she acts significantly different around her friends than she does around you? And, whether or not it might be that her friends are always a group and you always go out as a couple?

Meanwhile, it might not be a bad idea to take the initiative and schedule the babysitting for a once a month ‘date’ night or something. You don’t have to go out and do the bar scene but maybe you can start small with dinners and movies and move on from there. Don’t feel you have to jump into the middle, you can start slow and work your way up. I think the main thing is constancy and commitment! When I worked, my whole office knew my ‘date night’ because that was the night I would not work late. And, I also complained when I was sent out of town over that time period (and usually got comp time when I returned). It’s that important.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Now her reaction is not right or fair, but I also understand I cannot change her, it is up to her to change herself. with this understanding, I now must choose which thing is the lesser of the two evils for the greater good and better outcome for our M. Do you see what I mean or do you need more explanation here? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do. But, just because your rationalization sounds more positive doesn’t change what it is, a rationalization. Heck, Extremely Lost, I’ll give you this one. Your reasons are better than hers (or, at least what we surmise hers to be). The point is that you are working towards honesty but you aren’t there yet, either. She’s not even as far as you are yet.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Sure, I can understand that, but do you think she feels guilty when she rejects me on going out when I am with her at her home town? Do you think she even realizes this hurts me? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know, I really don’t know. I can think of several reasons she’d say no but I don’t know if she feels guilty about any of them or not. It does sound like the one time you did go out it turned into a pretty bad scene (the aftermath) so maybe she’s just stuck on that? What do you think?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Therefore, I am left to accept the current situation we are in while at the same time enticing her out of withdrawl. Well, I am not going to be able to entice her out of withdrawl by being "bad" in her eyes. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, sure, but there’s a trade off. The trade off is that you still need to speak up before YOU take on too much damage. Personally, I don’t think this is a good hill for you to die on, either. On the other hand, I can’t discount your feelings that it might be.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I know. She has said one of her worries is that I will act as I did over four years ago, which is the last and first time she took me out with her friends. I was fine while we were out, but she ended up hanging out with a guy and singing a romantic kareoki song with him. Later I find out they used to date. Yeah, I was a little jealous and self concious since this guys was in her town and I was currently living several states away and I just recently found out she was carrying our baby. Sorry, I am a falable human. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, we’re all fallible. So, level with me, how bad was it? Considering she is still worried about it 4 YEARS later, it sounds like it made an impression on her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I never said she did not have to talk to us. I told her to call us when she could. There is a difference. When I am away for work or whatever or even am going to be late, she expects me to call and if I don't she gets on me about it. Why is it now, not good enough for her to do? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, it sounds like you’ve had at least daily contact (I’d count the call in the restaurant as the call for the day). Is that more or less standard? Or, is it always a ‘good night’ call?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I did that last night and today. I will try to continue it when she calls again. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Muuuucccchhh better.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yes, I hope you are still willing to help me in the new year. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Heh, I imagine I’ll be around. I’m hoping to start coaching classes like Starfish did if they’ll have me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Thanks. Yeah, Maybe I can come up with a more to the point list than the last one I tried to present in MC. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, maybe. When is your next MC appointment, anyway? After the holidays?

Mys

Heh, as another perspective on the frequency of communication idea...

I'm the child of an airline pilot. When I was little, we lived in a neighborhood that had a whole lot of pilot families. And every family had different arrangements on how contact would be handled while the dad was away. I don't think any of them were more or less loving, but rather suited to the needs of the family and the current situation. "I'll be home on this day at this time and I will call if there are any changes to that but otherwise not" was pretty common. It was also assumed that crises of various sorts could be handled by the spouse at home, and for anything major the pilot could be reached via the airline crewdesk.

Heh, if you had propounded your theories on how a "correct" person would feel "compelled" to behave at one of the neighborhood parties, everyone would have asked you if you were feeling ok and checked you for a fever.

EL:

I can't recall anyone addressing the core issue, so at the risk of stating the obvious, let's recap.

1. You and your future wife concieve a child the first weekend together as a couple.
1a You move in together.
2. Your wife has a difficult pregnancy.
3. Your wife has a difficult birth.
4. You are working hard to get a financially distressed company off the ground.
5. Your son exhibits behaviors that need thoughtful attention.

Enough stress for ya?

At what point in the process did you and your wife go through the courtship and process of getting to know one another intimately, bond as a couple and resolve compatibility issues?

Usually, don't we do this as we date. You two seemed to have skipped this process, jumping right into the deep end of the pool.

And so, you have these expectations:

My true expectations are actually very reasonable. Here they are:

1) I expect the person I choose to spend the rest of my life with will totally trust me, and I will totally trust them. This I now realize I have had issues with and am trying to work on this.

2) I expect the person I choose to spend the rest of my life with actually loves and desires me and will ALWAYS care about my feelings as I will ALWAYS care about theirs.

3) I expect the person I choose to spend the rest of my life with will desire to have a physical relationship with me and desires to please me as much as I desire to please them.

4) I expect the person I choose to spend the rest of my life with to remain faithful to me and to care about my understanding that they are, have been and will remain faithful to me as I do and will for them.

This all I ask. I challenge anyone to say these four items are unreasonable. Give me these four items and I will fill every need you have.....

Very reasonable for a couple that has gone through the process of building their relationship. Help me understand, but I just don't see where you two have had the opportunity to develop intimacy in the first place. Rather, you two are at square one figuring each other out. I don't see where your wife has denied you something you had, but rather that you expect something that has not been given the opportunity to exist in the first place.

You've heard it over and over again, but I really do believe when you work on yourself and becoming more emotionally independent, then you will not struggle with unfufilled expectations in the relationship.

Allow your wife the space for her to work it out for herself. I'm in your corner, you are trying to make it work, meet her needs, etc. but she has to decide on her own if she will reciprocate.

Otherwise, why be in an intimate relationship that is not intimate?

Good morning,

I'm just checking in with you and hoping that your wife made it home, safe and sound, after her busy week. I'm also hoping that your MIL is doing well and continues to heal.

Mys

Hello All,

Things have been pretty crazy for me (and my W) lately. My MIL is doing fine and actually decided to go home from the H early. She is in pain (as expected) but doing OK. My W never called me Friday night (the night she went out and said she would try to call me). She called me late Saturday morning and was basically crappy to me on the phone and hung up without saying "love ya" or anything. I was upset and really did not give her any reason to be mad at me. She called later on in the afternoon, when she started her drive back and I made the comment, "I thought you were mad at me." She started to cry and say she was sorry and mentally had had enough. She came home to an extremely clean house and got some rest over the weekend.

We had an MC appointment today. The interesting thing is that it had been a while since we had gone to the MC due to every thing happening that I had forgot about the appointment. She brought it up last night in a positive manner. We went to the appointment and for 40 minutes I did not say a word. It was all about my W, her mom and her brother. Incidently, last Thursday, while my W was trying to take care of her mom, her brother drove to town with his W and two kids to talk with my W. He told my W how he and his W are addicted to a form of heroin! He wanted my W to help them out and get them into a clinic and everything. So my W had MAJOR things to deal with all at once.

At the end of our session, the MC asks my W what she needed from me to help her through all of this. My W said just for me to listen. The MC asked me what I needed from my W to get through all of this. This was the first time in the session I spoke. I said, "I need my W to be able to seperate her difficult issues from us." My W went ballistic and said things like "Fine, I will deal with all this on my own." I tried to tell her that is not what I meant and wanted to explain, but she did not give me many chances to say anything. Then she brought up the whole "good night" phone call thing and continued to say things that really irritated me. She actually "made up reality" about certain things such as how long we talked on the phone and how many times we talked on the phone. I understand that it was pointless to argue this because it is her POV versus mine and there was no meshing going to happen here. So I tried to not even engage in this friutless discussion. She kept at it and finally drug me into it. With only a few minutes left in the session, we ended up having it turn bad for us. I said to the MC, "Can you see? No matter what I do, or how hard I try, she turns things around to make me fit my older mold of being controlling or jealous. I have tried really hard to work through these issues, and no matter what I do, she finds me guilty." My W kept talking over me and yelling at me. One of the things she said is that up till now she thought I was supportive, but thinks now, I was not. I just really had enough. I then said, "Now, we are going to walk out of here and she is going to say, 'Great, another Tuesday ruined!' and I am going to have to carry this negativity around all day and try to be useful at work. Whats even more difficult to live with is that up until this moment my W felt I was supportive of her and because of a misunderstood statement of mine, she is now going to feel that I have always been unsupportive and it is just not fair." We left and my W for once did not ***** about the day being ruined (first time). She said to me, "Have a good day at work."

I tried to talk with her before we got into our cars. I told her that I am supportive of her and I love her. I went to work unhappy about the whole experience and as I usually feel after an MC session, questioning my M. I got to work and had to meet with some new accountants and one in particular was a very attractive young lady. Usually, I met with people all of the time and never really "notice" that someone is attractive or not because I love my W and nobody else ever interests me in this way. Well, I have to say I found this woman to be smart and attractive. I am starting to think that my mind is trying to tell me something about the "real" state of my M.

Currently, things are just too hard. I mean, I have to go to such extreme lengths to even get my W to angrily talk about being physical with me. How unattractive is this for her, and becoming more important to me, how unattractive is this for me? It is not meant to be this hard or difficult. Some may call this a DJ or a skewed reality, but it is definitely a romantic's view point.

So now, I am leaving the office and must go home and am not looking forward to even dealing with my W. I am getting sick of all this. Yes, I do make some grand stands at times in my use of the English language, and make some mistakes like LBs or DJs at times. We are all human. There just comes a time when enough becomes enough and I am becoming very worried that this time for me is approaching quicker than I would of liked.

I do love my W and I want nothing more than to truly feel loved back from her. Some of you have said I vent more than ask for help. Well, some of this is true, but I also do a lot of trying to list out conversations we have had to try and understand where it goes wrong. I am open to all suggestions of help, but in the end, I also must be open to the possibility that my M may not be able to be saved. Maybe it can be, but it is difficult to see.

Take Care,

EL

I understand how painfully frustrating it must be for you when your wife reports things differently from how they happened.

What I cannot for the life of me understand is, given this frustration, how on earth you can go on doing the same thing to your wife with your grandstanding language. And this victimspeak routine -- if you're a victim here, she is too since you do the same thing to her.

You're living in a glass house and casting stones, EL. There's time enough for pondering extreme alternatives AFTER you've cleaned up your own behavior.