Look, realistically you haven't given the MB principles anything like a viable trial. The first step is always to eliminate LBs, and most urgently to eliminate all three of the verbal abuse types of LBs completely. You haven't done that -- you still use them with some frequency.

I know the first thing you're going to want to say to that is, "But I've been trying really hard!!!!" But trying hard on the wrong things and in the wrong directions is completely opposite to what MB is about. Yes, you've been trying really hard. But when you find MB principles too objectionable, you go against them. How "hard" you "try" is not relevant when you're not directing your "trying hard" efforts responsibly.

Your recent posts make it sound like you're running up against the fact that you can't both build a good marriage and hold onto your victim mentality -- and you'd rather keep the victimhood. If that's your choice, that's your choice.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Things have been pretty crazy for me (and my W) lately. My MIL is doing fine and actually decided to go home from the H early. She is in pain (as expected) but doing OK. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I’m glad she’s feeling better.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She called me late Saturday morning and was basically crappy to me on the phone and hung up without saying "love ya" or anything. I was upset and really did not give her any reason to be mad at me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This part is a bit confusing to me. Were you upset because she didn’t call you Friday night? Or, were you upset because you felt she was ‘crappy’ on the phone with you? I’m trying to figure out the timeline. If you were all ready upset when she called, is it possible she was on the defensive because she assumed you’d be upset when she didn’t call?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She called later on in the afternoon, when she started her drive back and I made the comment, "I thought you were mad at me." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That’s a provocative statement.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She started to cry and say she was sorry and mentally had had enough. She came home to an extremely clean house and got some rest over the weekend. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, at least that sounds like things got better.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> We had an MC appointment today. The interesting thing is that it had been a while since we had gone to the MC due to every thing happening that I had forgot about the appointment. She brought it up last night in a positive manner. We went to the appointment and for 40 minutes I did not say a word. It was all about my W, her mom and her brother. Incidently, last Thursday, while my W was trying to take care of her mom, her brother drove to town with his W and two kids to talk with my W. He told my W how he and his W are addicted to a form of heroin! He wanted my W to help them out and get them into a clinic and everything. So my W had MAJOR things to deal with all at once. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yipes! That really does sound like a lot going on at once. Hopefully things work out for them, too.

How do you feel about your wife’s involvement in this? I’m not sure if I’m reading between some lines here but I sense (with my extra-sensory MB board abilities) that you are unhappy that your wife would help them? What do you think she should do about it? (This isn’t bait; I promise that I won’t accuse you of a DJ no matter what your answer is. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> At the end of our session, the MC asks my W what she needed from me to help her through all of this. My W said just for me to listen. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok, before we move on THIS is important. Are you willing to do this? “Just listen” sounds like “don’t offer advice” and “don’t try to fix it – let me handle it” how willing are you to do that?

[Sometimes your MC bugs me because she moves too quickly on before ensuring understanding. A lot of what happened next has to do with her not giving your W a chance to feel validated before asking you what you wanted to get through this. At least, in my very humble opinion.]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The MC asked me what I needed from my W to get through all of this. This was the first time in the session I spoke. I said, "I need my W to be able to seperate her difficult issues from us." My W went ballistic and said things like "Fine, I will deal with all this on my own." I tried to tell her that is not what I meant and wanted to explain, but she did not give me many chances to say anything. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok, before we even get to your answer which IS important, I’d like to take a step back and discuss strategy with you. I can’t help but feel that you were set up for this reaction because you were put in a double bind by your counselor *sighs*. You were asked a direct question which you answered honestly but in a way that did not validate your wife’s main concern that she just stated. The problem is NOT WITH YOUR ANSWER. The problem is that when and how your answer was solicited created a very real impression that you weren’t listening to your wife.

This is a little bit like playing catch with another person. Usually, you try to get eye contact to gauge readiness before tossing the ball to that person. This is like someone shouting “THROW” in your ear while your wife was looking elsewhere. That ball hit her right smack in the face.

So, EL, you need some strategies to protect yourself because you are the one that’s getting the brunt of this. Next time, your MC asks a question like that then turns to you and asks the same question, I suggest you pause and say:

“I want to answer that question but first I want to make sure that I respond to what my wife just said. I heard her say that she wants me just to listen and I’m willing to do that but I just want a little more clarification first. Does that mean listen and don’t offer suggestions (let her handle it)? Or, how specifically can I ensure that I am listening in the way that supports her the most?”

The idea is that even if you THINK you know what she means to come up with at least one clarifying question to let her talk about it and get an air of finality about it. Then, when that’s done… offer your answer.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I said, "I need my W to be able to seperate her difficult issues from us." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now, about your answer, I find this somewhat ambiguous so let me try and ask you some questions about what you meant. Did you mean that you are afraid that because your wife is dealing with ‘other family’ unpleasantness that she’ll be cranky and unpleasant to be around in your family so by separating that out, not let that affect her mood? Did you mean that you want to ensure that your family is protected from those ‘other family’ issues – like you don’t want her brother and your SIL around your home and child because of the drug issues? Did you mean that you are afraid that she’ll take whatever anger or angst she feels about the ‘other family’ stuff and take it out on you? Or, is this the concern that she will no longer focus on your needs and instead choose to focus on fixing the outside family issues? Or, is it something else?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> We left and my W for once did not ***** about the day being ruined (first time). She said to me, "Have a good day at work." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, you wanted out of withdrawal, it sounds like you got some conflict. Actually, I don’t have a problem with what you said. And, I think your wife HAS HEARD what you said. She’s listening, EL.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I got to work and had to meet with some new accountants and one in particular was a very attractive young lady. Usually, I met with people all of the time and never really "notice" that someone is attractive or not because I love my W and nobody else ever interests me in this way. Well, I have to say I found this woman to be smart and attractive. I am starting to think that my mind is trying to tell me something about the "real" state of my M. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">*shakes her head* I think you need to be very careful about stuff like this, EL. It’s normal – like fire is natural – but it’s dangerous too and you know it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Currently, things are just too hard. I mean, I have to go to such extreme lengths to even get my W to angrily talk about being physical with me. How unattractive is this for her, and becoming more important to me, how unattractive is this for me? It is not meant to be this hard or difficult. Some may call this a DJ or a skewed reality, but it is definitely a romantic's view point. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, conflict is hard. The path back to intimacy takes you through conflict. So, in a way, it is meant to be this hard. I don’t think it’s possible to have a life together as a partner with another person without conflict. Now, there are more productive ways to deal with conflict but you have to learn those – most people aren’t born with them. Look at it this way, you weren’t born with them either.

You don’t say much about your first marriage except that it ended due to infidelity. If you think about it, now that you know about MB, there might have been some early signs or some instances where you (as a couple) didn’t deal with issues productively. I’m not suggesting that you are responsible for the affair in any way, but I am suggesting that you were probably responsible for SOME of the problems in that marriage.

I know that you’re tired and disappointed with how your marriage is going but part of why the ”It shouldn’t be this hard.” philosophy is that it tends to GET this hard at some point in the relationship. There are chemical changes that happen in our brains when we fall in love. After 2-3 years is when those chemicals start to wear off and different forms of attachment form. Your particular case might be on the low end because of your wife’s pregnancy and the resultant hormonal changes, etc. Right now, you’re in the process of building those attachment feelings. Even if you started over with a new wife next week, you’re still going to have to handle conflict productively at some point AND learn to deal with forming attachment bonds after the chemical boost of new love wears off. So, if you’re interested in building a relationship with someone that lasts more than say.. 3-4 years, you’re going to have to go through this stage (though not necessarily these exact problems) at some point.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So now, I am leaving the office and must go home and am not looking forward to even dealing with my W. I am getting sick of all this. Yes, I do make some grand stands at times in my use of the English language, and make some mistakes like LBs or DJs at times. We are all human. There just comes a time when enough becomes enough and I am becoming very worried that this time for me is approaching quicker than I would of liked. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is it approaching quicker than 3 weeks? Do you want to try and tackle this before Xmas? I mean, there’s nothing magical about that timeline, it’s just that things tend to get easier when Holidays aren’t in the way. But, if what you’re saying is that you just don’t have it in you, I’m willing to believe you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I do love my W and I want nothing more than to truly feel loved back from her. Some of you have said I vent more than ask for help. Well, some of this is true, but I also do a lot of trying to list out conversations we have had to try and understand where it goes wrong. I am open to all suggestions of help, but in the end, I also must be open to the possibility that my M may not be able to be saved. Maybe it can be, but it is difficult to see. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It’s funny, but I was never under the impression that you weren’t open to the possibility that your marriage can’t be saved. By that, I mean that you seem to consider the possibility an awful lot. Sure, there’s a possibility it can’t be saved. There’s always a possibility. There’s a possibility MY marriage can’t last.

The possibility, probability, certainty, or whatever isn’t nearly as important as WHAT YOU DO ABOUT IT. So, there’s a possibility that your marriage can’t be saved. At what point in that possibility do you give up? My philosophy is that if you’re still contemplating that question, then you’re not done yet. And, if you’re not done yet, then you keep working at it because until it’s a certainty that the marriage can’t be saved (the divorce is final) then you’re still in it.

I don’t expect as long winded a reply, but I am very interested in your thoughts about what I wrote concerning different philosophies. In particular, I’m interested in your thoughts about having very different ideas about what is and isn’t appropriate and what you think should happen about those issues in a marriage. How open to negotiation are you on some of those ‘ideals’ that you think are normal and natural in a marriage?

Mys

MOS,

Thanks for your replies, although I do feel they are a bit too harsh and unfair. I have drastically changed since April of last year in many more positive ways than I could actually take the time to list, and yes, these changes are ALL in accordance with MB.

I also do not enjoy being the "victim." The problem here is that one needs to seperate out the definition of "victim" versus understanding the reality of one's relationship.

MOS, I have spent months trying to improve on my personal issues, without so much as a "thank you" or "I really appreciate and see your efforts and I understand change is hard." Instead, when asked, my W says things like, "why should I have to say anything, this is how he should act?" When I do discuss things with my W in accordance with MB, everyone's help on this board and the (all be it minimal) guidance from an MC, my needs are not accepted and recognized as valid and that my W is currently unable to meet these "normal" needs of mine, they are in fact disregarded as "not right," or "wrong." Even eight months into using MB, my needs are still considered to be invalid by my W. I cannot tell you how much more energy it would have given me to have at least heard from my W that she understands and accepts my needs and hopes to someday be able to meet them, but at the moment is unable to. This is what LFC says about her H's needs. Do you see the difference.

Way earlier in this post, LFC and Mys gave me some advice about "weak positioned arguments." This is where each of us try to fight the other to get the other to accept our POV over theirs. Well, I can understand this and have tried to live by this. There is another weak positioned argument that was never discussed in this post and it has to do with convincing your partner that your needs are your needs and in fact they are valid needs because they are your needs. Unfortunately, my W does not accept this nor seems willing to try and understand this.

It is one thing to try and improve communication through ridding yourself of LBs and DJs and things, but it is never going to do you much good if the foundation for the relationship is not there in the first place. Managing2 was very correct, that my W and I missed out on the "dating" period and were forced to become way too serious, way to fast in our relationship for the good of our S. This is something my W and I were extremely concious of and is a big reason we both agreed that we did not want to get married right away. We wanted to get married because WE wanted to marry one another and both felt that getting married because of a child was not the right thing to do. I had also promised myself that I would not marry into dysfunction, yet, I broke this rule and did it anyway. We had these same problems when I asked my W to marry me. This is because I am an old romantic and believe in love. One of my fundamental things is that I would pretty much do almost anything for my W, however, giving up my needs that cause me to feel loved is not one of these things.

Let me give you an excerpt out of "the week in the life of EL." Lets start this week off by going to MC. We go to MC and try to discuss things with an MC that does not really guide, nor control the direction of our sessions, nor give us true things to work on. My W usually ends up getting really upset in these sessions to the point of crying. Each session, my heart feels like it is torn out. We leave the session and my W makes some comment about how the session has now ruined her day. This defeatest comment to me before I go to work total destroys my day, and yes, I own these destroyed feelings as my own. I drive to work with feelings of running away from our M. I try to work through the day and my feelings. Usually my W will call me during the day and act as nothing has happened and has called to relay some type of information about something she is doing. The conversation usually is kept civil, but not overfilled with happiness or excitement (I am still trying hard to sort out my feelings, but I do not want to cause my W negative feelings). I drive home and usually still do not understand my feelings, nor know how to handle being home this night. The night at home is usually superficial in where we do not discuss the MC session or our M again. We get through the rest of the week without discussing our M because I know it will be negative, even if I was Dr. Harley. I do rebuild my feelings to the point of trying to do really nice things for my W and not LB. The week goes by and the next MC session comes and the cycle repeats itself.

Now, this is the basic cycle of how things have been since my W began going to MC with me. The differences have come, when we could not fit MC in every week and have gone every other week, or when it has been so long and I tire of this cycle, that I try to engage my W in a discussion about how she feels about our M and me. Usually, she will say, "I don't know," or that she does not have a feeling or opinion about this. Since we have been going through this process for quite a long time and I have taken ownership of things that would have lessened the stress from my W blaming herself for the state of our M, I get very frustrated when my W does not have an opinion regarding how she is feeling about our M. I feel it is unfair of me to push her into a corner and try and force a response, but I also feel it is equally unfair, after all of this time, to still be getting an "I don't know."

After 8 months of this cycle, and only some minimal changes in my W, to which she has stated to me and the MC as not really being any changes from her, just the case of my becoming aware of what she has been doing all along, I am getting pretty drained.

I have tried to respect my W by not talking about our M at all in between MC sessions and all this has done is gotten me more frustrated and sad because I feel that with her this is really a case of "out of sight, out of mind." I got excited with the suggestions from Mys, that she thought it was now time in the process for me to start being assertive with my needs. Then we got side tracked with my W's mom's surgery and her brother's issues along with the Holidays. There were also other things that helped to side track us, such as my W wanting to be on the home owners association, my W wanting to start a small business, my W's friends. All of these things are not bad and do help my W find self worth, but they ALL do distract from our M and rebuilding our M. It all starts to seem, like everything becomes more important than our M. When I have tried to discuss this with my W, she has turned this around on me and says things like, I am being controlling by being upset that she should always be working or discussing our M over this stuff. All I would like is a reasonable balance and for her to really think through and set her priorities for what she wants out of life. I know what my priorities are and what I want. But this does not seem to happen.

Then there are the few times that we actually do things together. During these times, some physical ailment does seem to crop up and put a damper on what we are doing. Strangely enough, while my W does the "other" things she does not seem to have any of these afflictions, or atleast they do not seem to effect her participating in these "other" things.

Of course, along with all of our M issues, we do have the holidays, her mom's recovery from surgery, her sister who is building a house in another state and wants my W's help, her brother and his W who need drug rehab and their children taken care of, her becoming vice-president of the home owners association, her starting up a small business at home, the raising of our S, the maintenance of our H, the running and growing our my business. So, the writing seems to be on the wall with our M and I do not know what I can do about it, if there is anything I can do at all. I have told my W I am not happy. We have been going to MC and it has not seemed to make a big difference. I have eliminated 90% of LBs or DJs. I have been trying hard to meet her needs and at the very least have shown her that I take her needs seriously.

One would think that with all of this and the inputs your H has given you, if you really wanted this M, you would have really stepped up and found a way to communicate this to your H in a way that he understood that you wanted this M. You would not be lazy at this point, you would leave no stone unturned to try and convince him that you truly want this M and him in your life. I do not feel as though she really has given me this information or feeling.

So, this is where I am at. I am not trying to be doom and gloom. I am just stating my sad situation. I do not know what to do from here. I am sad because I do not feel continuing on the path we are on is going to be healthy for us. I love my W and by saying this, the most important thing is that my W is happy. I cannot have the M the way I would like it and be happy with this if she is not happy also. She is the smartest, most wonderful woman I have ever met and it is unfortunate how things have progressed. When I first met her, we held the same values and she struck me as a very smart person, one who would not allow what has happened to us, to actually progress to this point. Part of where I am at right now is shock because I never saw her as a person who would let her M get to this point.

I deeply love her and do wish to grow old together.

EL

Wow, you're really determined not to give this a realistic chance, are you?

You and mys seemed to come to a consensus that like it or not, progress on marital issues was probably not going to happen until after the holidays. Yet you go on and on about not seeing the progress you want and completely ignore the evidence of progress that is staring you in the face.

You entirely missed my main point, but I guess that doesn't surprise me. I'll restate it again in case you're interested:

1: You recognize you're not happy with the progress of rebuilding your marriage.

2: Go straight into the wife-at-fault translator. WRONG! Part 2 is really: What am I doing to contribute to the situaiton that is making me unhappy? I'm trying to do this MB stuff, but it's not working the way I want, so a review of how I'm doing it is in order. The first step is to completely and absolutely eliminate the 3 verbal abuse LBs, and to be honest, I haven't done that yet. I've been trying to apply a lot of MB things at once, which is good, but realistically I'm still working on that first step without which Dr. Harley says I can't expect any of the rest to work. So I'd better figure out that first step.

3: Plan what to do about my contribution to the situation identified above: What am I going to do to eliminate all SDs, DJs, and AOs completely? What does Dr. Harley say about this in the Love Busters books? What kind of help am I going to secure for myself in this?

Good Morning Mys,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This part is a bit confusing to me. Were you upset because she didn’t call you Friday night? Or, were you upset because you felt she was ‘crappy’ on the phone with you? I’m trying to figure out the timeline. If you were all ready upset when she called, is it possible she was on the defensive because she assumed you’d be upset when she didn’t call?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I was in fact unhappy because she did not call. After the fact she actually explained what she was doing and how she had the time to call, but did not. This did not make me feel any better. However, my complete awareness of how she could be hessitant to call me on Saturday because she would assume I would be upset. Therefore, I really worked on how I was going to handle the phone call when it came. I handled it great. I did not come across angry or upset. I did not give her a reason to get upset. We talked for a couple of minutes and then her mood changed as if someone flipped a light switch. She had me on speaker phone and was getting herself ready in the morning. All of a sudden she says, "Well, I have to go. I am trying to do my hair and talk with you at the same time. The sooner I get ready, the sooner I get home. Bye." Her tone was not a happy tone and she became very short with me. Trust me on this one, I did not do anything to cause it. I was sweet and understanding on the phone and it was killing me to do this. After she said what she said I simply said, "OK, please be safe driving back. I love you." Then we both hung up. I was left with a feeling of hurt and unhappiness. I became angry about how she actually treated me on the phone. I finished cleaning the house and doing laundry and then took our S to go see Santa. My W calls again about 5 hours later and says she is on the road. I was not saying much because I did not want to upset her and I was not in a great mood to be overly happy with her either. So I pretty much remained monotone. I then mentioned that I thought she was mad at me this morning. She immediately said, "I am sorry, I just emotionally cannot take anymore right now." We talked for a little bit and she became warmer to me over the phone.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> How do you feel about your wife’s involvement in this? I’m not sure if I’m reading between some lines here but I sense (with my extra-sensory MB board abilities) that you are unhappy that your wife would help them? What do you think she should do about it? (This isn’t bait; I promise that I won’t accuse you of a DJ no matter what your answer is. )
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You have to understand that my W's mom moved out when she was 11 years old. She was left with being the "mom" of the house and taking care of everything. Her dad was always gone working two jobs to support them. She feels compelled to fix things and mother things. She had not really had a fair opportunity to have the life she really wanted, which was an organized and planned out life, until we got together. Now she has the opportunity for the life she has always wanted, yet is compelled to put many things before this.

I truly understand family and helping out family. I am 100% behind my W helping out her family. The problem comes when my W makes a choice that it is more important to donate time to her brother, who has neglected his children and family over drugs for a while, while not stepping up and saving her own M. I do not want to force my W to choose, but I can only wait so long for improvements in our M. I am not trying to be selfish. Do you see where I am coming from in one of my earlier posts where I say, yes, it is awful what my MIL is going through, but after this difficult thing, there will be another and then another and then another that is always being put in front of our M? At some point, one has to decide if they are going to save the World, or save their own family. Everything is turned into my W's own personal tragedy. Let me offer examples so everyone in the back ground can put their 2x4s down and save themselves a swing.

Take this year for example. Starting in April, when I found MB. This was the time my W had to go home to be with her mom who was getting tested for breast cancer. This was a tragedy that took two weeks. Then they needed my W's grandmother, who is astranged from the family, to take a test for a certain gene, but nobody but my W could go and convince her to take the test. This took two week of everyone putting the pressure on my W. Then came my W's sister starting her own business and wanting my W's help in setting this up which took a week or two. Then came my W's step sister's wedding, which she was in. This took over for another two weeks. Then came the home owner's association, which took three demanding weeks from my W originally and is on going. Then came our patio and outside landscaping which took precedence in our lives for a full month and a half. Then came our only trip for the year, which we had to agree to not talk about or M and I had to be OK with no affection or physical intimacy, which too a week. Then came major issues with her brother and his family, which took her focus for 3 weeks around late August. Then her sister is building a house and wanted my W to help her with choosing some things which took two weeks of her focus. Then came the need to get more furniture for our house, which took her focus for a couple of weeks. Then came my W deciding on her own to start a small business which initially took her focus for a couple of weeks and is on going. Then back to her brother and her sister which caused us to take a trip up there and help with building her sister's house for a couple of days, but took her focus for a week. Then back to her mom's approaching surgery which took 3 weeks of her focus. Now the holdiays are taking her focus as well as her brother's situation. Mys, you have suggested I wait until the new year, well my W's birthday is January 5, there goes another week because we will not want to chance upsetting her around her birthday and appear calaus. My W also mentioned that she is wanting to go back to her sister's in January to help her move into her house.

My entire point for listing all of this is that it quickly becomes evident that my W can easily put something into the forefront of her focus and if I object I quickly come off as selfish or uncaring. Its the same old thing like when people are considering getting married or having children. There never is a "better" time to do this. Some use the excuse of wait until we get more bills paid off, or wait until I get a better job or whatever, but the turth of it all is, everyone could keep making excuses to never make things happen and these excuses can all appear to be very valid. This is why people MUST set priorities in their lives. It is not a choice I wish to "force upon" my W. It is a required choice that everyone MUST make to allow their lives to have some order. You have to ask yourself ultimately, what is more important in your life. Is it your immediate family and your M or is it your job, or your extended family or saving the World. There is not a way to have two top priorities, one must and will always take priority over another, because it has to. Nobody truly can do two things at once. Therefore, one must choose what thing to focus on at any given time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Ok, before we move on THIS is important. Are you willing to do this? “Just listen” sounds like “don’t offer advice” and “don’t try to fix it – let me handle it” how willing are you to do that?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I am willing to do this, but all the while I will have in the back of my head that I am concerned that I am missing some type of support that my W would like. Therefore, I would like for her to tell me "thanks" afterwards to let me know that I gave her what she needed. Does this make sense?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> [Sometimes your MC bugs me because she moves too quickly on before ensuring understanding. A lot of what happened next has to do with her not giving your W a chance to feel validated before asking you what you wanted to get through this. At least, in my very humble opinion.]
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree, and in fact the MC would actually agree with you. In the middle of the short blow up, the MC said, "I asked you this question anticiapting this blow up to happen. You guys need to tell each other what you need from each other and you each need to listen and try to provide what each other needs. Neither of your needs are wrong, they are just your needs." Then the blow up continued forward.

An interesting side note is that during the first 40 minutes when my W was talking about family issues, she talked about how rediculous her brother was being because he did not want to see a counselor because of his addiction. He did not want someone to probe his thoughts and get too personal. Later, in our blow up, my W made some reference to our counseling and it not doing much and the MC was quick to bring up that she had pointed out earlier in the session that counseling can be somewhat helpful. The MC even said, "Those were your words." My W immediately stopped the direction she was going when the MC did this and switched gears.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Now, about your answer, I find this somewhat ambiguous so let me try and ask you some questions about what you meant. Did you mean that you are afraid that because your wife is dealing with ‘other family’ unpleasantness that she’ll be cranky and unpleasant to be around in your family so by separating that out, not let that affect her mood? Did you mean that you want to ensure that your family is protected from those ‘other family’ issues – like you don’t want her brother and your SIL around your home and child because of the drug issues? Did you mean that you are afraid that she’ll take whatever anger or angst she feels about the ‘other family’ stuff and take it out on you? Or, is this the concern that she will no longer focus on your needs and instead choose to focus on fixing the outside family issues? Or, is it something else?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Funny enough I meant all of these, but was not given the chance nor the opportunity to explain this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, you wanted out of withdrawal, it sounds like you got some conflict. Actually, I don’t have a problem with what you said. And, I think your wife HAS HEARD what you said. She’s listening, EL.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am amazed at how you insinuate this to be positive. She comes out of withdrawl to argue and then quickly goes back in. This is her repeated pattern and does not seem to change. How is this progress?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">*shakes her head* I think you need to be very careful about stuff like this, EL. It’s normal – like fire is natural – but it’s dangerous too and you know it.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">All I was saying here is that I have noticed that something has changed in me that has allowed me to feel attraction for someone else. It does not mean I was acting on it. I have found that I have actually been questioning my own attractiveness to my W. You can imagine that going through all of this does not put my W in a very attractive setting in my own eyes. One of my deep rooted worries is that we somehow magically come out of all this and my W decides she really wants this M and by then it is too late for me and I am no longer attracted to her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, conflict is hard. The path back to intimacy takes you through conflict. So, in a way, it is meant to be this hard. I don’t think it’s possible to have a life together as a partner with another person without conflict. Now, there are more productive ways to deal with conflict but you have to learn those – most people aren’t born with them. Look at it this way, you weren’t born with them either. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Great, what are they?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You don’t say much about your first marriage except that it ended due to infidelity. If you think about it, now that you know about MB, there might have been some early signs or some instances where you (as a couple) didn’t deal with issues productively. I’m not suggesting that you are responsible for the affair in any way, but I am suggesting that you were probably responsible for SOME of the problems in that marriage.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">For sure I hold myself part to blame for my last M. I also hold myself part to blame because it was another M I entered into where there was dysfunction in the beginning. See a pattern here?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I know that you’re tired and disappointed with how your marriage is going but part of why the ”It shouldn’t be this hard.” philosophy is that it tends to GET this hard at some point in the relationship. There are chemical changes that happen in our brains when we fall in love. After 2-3 years is when those chemicals start to wear off and different forms of attachment form. Your particular case might be on the low end because of your wife’s pregnancy and the resultant hormonal changes, etc. Right now, you’re in the process of building those attachment feelings. Even if you started over with a new wife next week, you’re still going to have to handle conflict productively at some point AND learn to deal with forming attachment bonds after the chemical boost of new love wears off. So, if you’re interested in building a relationship with someone that lasts more than say.. 3-4 years, you’re going to have to go through this stage (though not necessarily these exact problems) at some point.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, I just cannot help but wonder if our problems are too much to actually over come due to how our whole relationship unfolded. In the beginning I believed that my W was one of the strongest woman I had ever met. I thought if any couple could get through what we have been through, it would be us. Now, I am wondering if I was not wrong.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Is it approaching quicker than 3 weeks? Do you want to try and tackle this before Xmas? I mean, there’s nothing magical about that timeline, it’s just that things tend to get easier when Holidays aren’t in the way. But, if what you’re saying is that you just don’t have it in you, I’m willing to believe you.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Read what I wrote above. If it is not Christmas, it will be her B-day, then it will be her going to her sister's for a while, then whatever.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It’s funny, but I was never under the impression that you weren’t open to the possibility that your marriage can’t be saved. By that, I mean that you seem to consider the possibility an awful lot. Sure, there’s a possibility it can’t be saved. There’s always a possibility. There’s a possibility MY marriage can’t last.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Being open to it and willing to accept it are two very different animals.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The possibility, probability, certainty, or whatever isn’t nearly as important as WHAT YOU DO ABOUT IT. So, there’s a possibility that your marriage can’t be saved. At what point in that possibility do you give up? My philosophy is that if you’re still contemplating that question, then you’re not done yet. And, if you’re not done yet, then you keep working at it because until it’s a certainty that the marriage can’t be saved (the divorce is final) then you’re still in it.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, fight until you die. I used to believe in this type of philosophy. I am starting to question this now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I don’t expect as long winded a reply, but I am very interested in your thoughts about what I wrote concerning different philosophies. In particular, I’m interested in your thoughts about having very different ideas about what is and isn’t appropriate and what you think should happen about those issues in a marriage. How open to negotiation are you on some of those ‘ideals’ that you think are normal and natural in a marriage?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would be extremely open to these negotiations if I felt loved and my W treated what I need as real and not a way of controlling her or something that is wrong because she does not feel the same way. Two people need to enter into these types of negotiations with respect for each other and willing to give weight to what the other feels or needs. With all of this, I would be extremely willing. At this point, I just cannot see my W being this person. After 8 months, she still cannot get the my needs are valid for me and are ok for me to have.

Take Care,

EL

MOS,

Insulting me is not going to help my situation. Of Course I am willing to give this a realistic chance, why would I turn my entire World on its head if I was not? I did not expect a DJ from you!

I also feel you are DJing by maintaining that I have not totally eliminate LBs form my M. You are not there in my house when I speak with my W. You are present for what I write, but this is the only input you have. It is unfair to stretch what I write when I am also admittedly venting because this is truly the only area I have for venting.

I have read Harley's books and have asked for help repeatedly on this site. To try and minimalize what I have tried to do is not fair.

If you have real help with real examples, I am very willing to take them on board.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You and mys seemed to come to a consensus that like it or not, progress on marital issues was probably not going to happen until after the holidays. Yet you go on and on about not seeing the progress you want and completely ignore the evidence of progress that is staring you in the face.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Please point out the progress staring me in the face.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You entirely missed my main point, but I guess that doesn't surprise me. I'll restate it again in case you're interested:
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do not think I missed your main point. I believe your main point is that you feel I have not completely eliminate LBs and therefore because of this MB will not work for me until I do. However, Harley does allow for slips and mistakes because we are human. I have eliminated LBs. Once ina while one does come up when I am talking to my W, but I actually am quick to catch it and apologize. My writings here are not necessarily with my LB radar on because I find having this radar on is too exhaustive to do 100% of my life, so I choose to have this radar fully functioning when I am with my W. I do try and report the quotes as accurately as possible to offer you a real flavor of what happened. other than the real quotes, the rest are my thoughts, mixed with emotions and yes, LBS. However, these LBs are not presented to my W. Are you saying that we must all never even think LBs or DJs in our minds? I would be willing to bet this is impossible.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 1: You recognize you're not happy with the progress of rebuilding your marriage. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Definitely agreed.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 2: Go straight into the wife-at-fault translator. WRONG! Part 2 is really: What am I doing to contribute to the situaiton that is making me unhappy? I'm trying to do this MB stuff, but it's not working the way I want, so a review of how I'm doing it is in order. The first step is to completely and absolutely eliminate the 3 verbal abuse LBs, and to be honest, I haven't done that yet. I've been trying to apply a lot of MB things at once, which is good, but realistically I'm still working on that first step without which Dr. Harley says I can't expect any of the rest to work. So I'd better figure out that first step.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, I have no one to blame but myself for how I feel because ultimately I allow myself to feel the way I do. I understand what you mean. I would be curious to know something MOS. Would you do me a favor? If you were to assume that I have 100% removed all LBs with my W, and then looked back at what her actions have been over the last couple of months, what would your advice to me be then? It would have to be different because for this excersize you would have to accept that I have eliminated all LBs to my W. So, I am really curious as to what your advice would be given this assumption.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 3: Plan what to do about my contribution to the situation identified above: What am I going to do to eliminate all SDs, DJs, and AOs completely? What does Dr. Harley say about this in the Love Busters books? What kind of help am I going to secure for myself in this? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Understood.

Thanks,

EL

EL, I don't think I can be of any help to you at this point. I'm trying to learn to disengage from people who cling persistently to a victim mentality, and it's time I disengage here.

MOS -

I am sorry you feel this way. I am not desiring nor wishing to "cling to a victim" anything. I do not see all of what you are reffering to here. I will miss your advice, because at times you have helped me. I am sorry you feel you must "disengage." I wish you the best and hope you change your mind. I really would of liked to have gotten your answer to my question regarding the different advice you would have offered.

Take Care of yourself,

EL

I am risking my mental health even posting here on MB. But I have to. To me, EL, you are embroiled in day to day issues and drama with your wife when you are not addressing the core issue which is you have no good foundation for a relationship since you two jumped into having a baby, and living together so fast.

You keep saying" We held off marriage" like that would have helped but that was not the issue. Once the baby was established, you WERE IN A RELATIONSHIP with no foundation for the love to grow in a healthy manner. Now you say she was dysfunctional. Those two things alone would be enough to "bring down a jet".

1. You had to jump into a relationship without evaluation of your compatability so the motivation has never been there to form a good marriage.

2. She was dysfunctional and you knew it but you went on ahead and married her anyway.

Wow, what do you do with this info? Realize that she has very little motivation to make a marriage good. And you are slowly losing your own motivation.

If you could somehow reconstruct the "crime" and go back and find out what was missing in her childhood to make her dysfunctional and also find out what was missing in your courtship to see if you were compatable and to make the foundation of your marriage strong,,,,well, this would be good.

If you could ignore the day to day game playing between you two and the hostility, and quit LB'ING and concentrate on these root issues, maybe you could rescue this marriage which was sick and stressed out from the beginning.

"Re-court" her or something.

All I know is if you two keep on with the bad hostile communication every day and the little games you are going to definitely end the marriage.

Only getting at the root causes can do any good. And she may not want to do this. Even if you do want to explore the root causes. But all you can do is try. By yourself or with a better MC.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> We talked for a couple of minutes and then her mood changed as if someone flipped a light switch. She had me on speaker phone and was getting herself ready in the morning. All of a sudden she says, "Well, I have to go. I am trying to do my hair and talk with you at the same time. The sooner I get ready, the sooner I get home. Bye." Her tone was not a happy tone and she became very short with me. Trust me on this one, I did not do anything to cause it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It might not have been about you. Maybe someone else was there or something else was going on in the background that you don’t know about. The reason I say that is because of the sudden mood change. It could be something simple like her not being able to get a good view of what she was trying to do with her hair in that position and just suddenly wanting to get it done.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I then mentioned that I thought she was mad at me this morning. She immediately said, "I am sorry, I just emotionally cannot take anymore right now." We talked for a little bit and she became warmer to me over the phone. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think this is very important. Are you hearing her words? She’s telling you that she’s emotionally over loaded. People act differently when they’re stressed.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My entire point for listing all of this is that it quickly becomes evident that my W can easily put something into the forefront of her focus and if I object I quickly come off as selfish or uncaring. Its the same old thing like when people are considering getting married or having children. There never is a "better" time to do this. Some use the excuse of wait until we get more bills paid off, or wait until I get a better job or whatever, but the turth of it all is, everyone could keep making excuses to never make things happen and these excuses can all appear to be very valid. This is why people MUST set priorities in their lives. It is not a choice I wish to "force upon" my W. It is a required choice that everyone MUST make to allow their lives to have some order. You have to ask yourself ultimately, what is more important in your life. Is it your immediate family and your M or is it your job, or your extended family or saving the World. There is not a way to have two top priorities, one must and will always take priority over another, because it has to. Nobody truly can do two things at once. Therefore, one must choose what thing to focus on at any given time. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, actually, I agree with most of this.

I’ll start off with what I agree with and then I’ll tell you my concerns and maybe we can hash them out a bit.

First, I think you’re right that there’s never a good time for bad news. So, doing something sooner rather than later might be the thing to do. In fact, considering this impending deal with your BIL, it might be the exact RIGHT TIME to step up and say something before she gets overly committed.

I also happen to agree that priorities are important. You really can’t have 12 top priorities or you’ll likely be both ineffective and very, very stressed. So, declaring a priority is a good way to go.
Now, one concern that I have is what you consider a priority and what you consider ‘focus’ to be. Because, I get the impression that by ‘making something a priority’ or ‘focusing’ you are more or less hoping that she will completely exclude all those other activities and focus solely on working on the marriage and meeting your needs. I’m not sure that’s what you mean, but is how you come across and I suspect THAT is why you get told you’re being ‘selfish and controlling’ and not so much because other people don’t understand what priorities are and why they are important.

I think the most important thing is to come up with a list of specific things you’d like her to do which have nothing to do with the other things going on in her life. For example, if you’d like to have more open discussions about your relationship then set time aside to do that and make sure it happens. Or, if you’d like to spend 2 nights as date nights out or <whatever>. If your idea of ‘working on the marriage’ is that she has no other outside activities or that you dictate how she manages those activities then there is simply no way to make that come across as anything BUT selfish and controlling.

So, my entire point for saying all this is just to caution you to make a list of REALISTIC things that you would like to ask your wife to proactively DO that will help you feel as though she is working on the relationship. Then, let her manage the rest of her activities as she feels fit. As long as you two can negotiate (with your Taker) things that she CAN DO to help you feel as though she’s engaged in the relationship, then let her do what else she needs to do to be all right with herself.

Some ideas of things might be:

- be able to have a frank discussion about how you feel about this marriage and your emotional needs on a weekly basis. (Note, telling her she has to discuss how SHE feels is a demand. She can be INVITED to do so, but right now, what’s important is what you want to be ABLE to do not how you want to CHANGE her.)
- set aside time each month to have a date and BOTH commit to keeping those days free and available (unless some family emergency that you both agree is an emergency happens).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yes, I am willing to do this, but all the while I will have in the back of my head that I am concerned that I am missing some type of support that my W would like. Therefore, I would like for her to tell me "thanks" afterwards to let me know that I gave her what she needed. Does this make sense? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sure, and that should have come up in a clarifying question.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I agree, and in fact the MC would actually agree with you. In the middle of the short blow up, the MC said, "I asked you this question anticiapting this blow up to happen. You guys need to tell each other what you need from each other and you each need to listen and try to provide what each other needs. Neither of your needs are wrong, they are just your needs." Then the blow up continued forward. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, ok. Well, it doesn’t seem to have helped all that much, did it?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Funny enough I meant all of these, but was not given the chance nor the opportunity to explain this. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yikes. Well, you don’t ask for much, do you?

I think that’s a long list. I really think you need to prepare to have a frank discussion with your wife about this BIL issue, but I think it is very important that you not frame that as “how” she’s supposed to work on this marriage. Do you understand the distinction and it’s importance? It would be very easy to come across as saying “You have to not work with/love/have anyone else in your life in order to work on this marriage with me!” thus equating marriage with you with having no other outside contacts, relatives, or concerns when that is not what you mean. You do come across as saying that. Let’s try to refine your message.

I think your message should be something like…

”Honey, I really want to talk <<SNIP - sorry, I don't like what I wrote here, gonna think about it and redo it.>> I am very, very unhappy. I am so unhappy that I am honestly wondering whether or not we are going to make it. I’d like you to consider some things that I’d like to see happen in our relationship and let me know if you’re willing to consider doing some or all of them.

<short list – no more than 3-5 items. HAVE a list of 5-15 items so you can mix and match any she says she can’t do but present them a few at a time and as some get discarded. And STOP yourself at 5.>


Then leave the ball in her court. DO NOT ASK HER not to intervene with her brother. INSTEAD, ask her for things you’d like her to do for your marriage and let her manage her own time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am amazed at how you insinuate this to be positive. She comes out of withdrawl to argue and then quickly goes back in. This is her repeated pattern and does not seem to change. How is this progress? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Heh. Well, she did try to reach out to you by saying “Have a good day at work” and not saying “Another day ruined.” after the session. So, she did hear what you said and heard your unhappiness. Again, as long as you can make it about you and what you feel and make thoughtful requests that truly address the core problem, I think you’ll be fine. You NEED to make some thoughtful requests. Just be very, very careful not to diagnose to far along the line. For example, you assume that she’s not meeting your needs because she’s busy with other people. So, your solution is to what.. eliminate all the other people in her life?! Well, that comes across as controlling and, frankly, scary for anyone. Isolation is bad. Instead, ask for things FOR YOURSELF and let her manage her time, obligations, and relatives.

Extremely Lost, I’m not saying that you truly want to eliminate all the people in your wife’s life. But, the way you describe the problem focuses so SHARPLY on how that is the problem that it leads one to wonder if those people weren’t there you’d think your wife would focus on you and you’d be happier. No where in there does there seem to be a proactive request for things you really want – just lengthy descriptions of what you don’t want and why it seems to keep happening. So, while I honestly don’t believe that’s how you FEEL, I need you to be aware that it’s how you come across (at least here).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> All I was saying here is that I have noticed that something has changed in me that has allowed me to feel attraction for someone else. It does not mean I was acting on it. I have found that I have actually been questioning my own attractiveness to my W. You can imagine that going through all of this does not put my W in a very attractive setting in my own eyes. One of my deep rooted worries is that we somehow magically come out of all this and my W decides she really wants this M and by then it is too late for me and I am no longer attracted to her. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yep, I know. That’s why all I said was “be careful.” It’s not bad advice, you know?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Great, what are they? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, there are a couple of things that I find very helpful in conflict resolution. One is a certain amount of empathy. I empathize with how my H must feel and that things truly ARE important to him.

Another is a sense of perspective. I understand that everything isn’t really done TO me… it certainly AFFECTS me .. but most of the time, when he does something I don’t like there is something in it for him and he feels it’s in his best interest. I’d like to be able to negotiate with him, but I don’t expect him to just decide to choose MY best interest over his. I want him to come to the table with his Taker and get the best deal he can for himself. I also want to come to the table with MY Taker and get the best deal I can for me.

Something else that I think would really help you is the ability to stay focused on the problem and not chase carrots that are tossed my way. In many conversations, when someone gets in trouble, they push a button which turns the argument away from the real focus and leads down the merry path of ‘usual’ conflict. Examples are inflammatory statements like “Sex is all you want/think about/care about!” I can hear something like that and not have to make it true for me or feel the need to change (argue) that point with the other person. My response would likely to be: “Yes, sex is very important to me and so this is a really big problem. It IS very important and I’d really like to talk about it now.” Arguing against it only just deflects the discussion away from solution oriented discussion.

You strike me as being way too concerned with the veracity of the facts as opposed to the message of the discussion. (But, that’s me, a Feeler. I know my Thinker H is the same way so whenever I have to use ‘feeling facts’ I always choose some obnoxiously wrong figure so he knows that I know I’m exaggerating.)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> For sure I hold myself part to blame for my last M. I also hold myself part to blame because it was another M I entered into where there was dysfunction in the beginning. See a pattern here? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, is your assertion that if your marriage doesn’t start out “right” then it’s doomed?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yeah, I just cannot help but wonder if our problems are too much to actually over come due to how our whole relationship unfolded. In the beginning I believed that my W was one of the strongest woman I had ever met. I thought if any couple could get through what we have been through, it would be us. Now, I am wondering if I was not wrong. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, all right. Maybe you’re right. It’s a good theory. So, let’s assume it’s true. How does that change what you’re going to do right now or over the next 2 weeks?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Read what I wrote above. If it is not Christmas, it will be her B-day, then it will be her going to her sister's for a while, then whatever. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Fair enough. I’m not stuck on the ‘after-the-holidays’ schedule. It was a suggestion.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Being open to it and willing to accept it are two very different animals. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Huh?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yeah, fight until you die. I used to believe in this type of philosophy. I am starting to question this now. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, well, you said you tried withdrawal and it didn’t help either. So, unless what you’re saying is you’re ready to put the papers in place without ever trying assertive Thoughtful Requests, then I don’t get your point. Did you like Withdrawal so much that you want to go back there, or what?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I would be extremely open to these negotiations if I felt loved and my W treated what I need as real and not a way of controlling her or something that is wrong because she does not feel the same way. Two people need to enter into these types of negotiations with respect for each other and willing to give weight to what the other feels or needs. With all of this, I would be extremely willing. At this point, I just cannot see my W being this person. After 8 months, she still cannot get the my needs are valid for me and are ok for me to have. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sure, but you haven’t asked for what you want yet. Most of this last couple of months you’ve been trying to avoid asking for what you want. Now it’s time to ask. You have a choice. You can ask how you’ve always asked or, you can ask differently. First and foremost is to come up with actual things to ask FOR. Those things should be specific, measurable actions your wife can do. Those things should be negotiated so your expectations need to be set very, very low. Give her some choices.

Mys

Baba Comes Back!!!!!!!!!!!! <Ya for Baba!!!!>

I knew you would be back, welcome!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am risking my mental health even posting here on MB. But I have to. To me, EL, you are embroiled in day to day issues and drama with your wife when you are not addressing the core issue which is you have no good foundation for a relationship since you two jumped into having a baby, and living together so fast.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Exactly. You know, in the beginning I was afraid of this exact situation and I would discuss it with my W frequently. She agreed that we would not let this happen and be open with each other to not let this happen.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You keep saying" We held off marriage" like that would have helped but that was not the issue. Once the baby was established, you WERE IN A RELATIONSHIP with no foundation for the love to grow in a healthy manner. Now you say she was dysfunctional. Those two things alone would be enough to "bring down a jet".
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I was not directly calling her dysfunctional as much as I was refering to our relationship.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If you could somehow reconstruct the "crime" and go back and find out what was missing in her childhood to make her dysfunctional and also find out what was missing in your courtship to see if you were compatable and to make the foundation of your marriage strong,,,,well, this would be good. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Absolutely.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If you could ignore the day to day game playing between you two and the hostility, and quit LB'ING and concentrate on these root issues, maybe you could rescue this marriage which was sick and stressed out from the beginning. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, maybe.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "Re-court" her or something. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I wish I knew how I could.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> All I know is if you two keep on with the bad hostile communication every day and the little games you are going to definitely end the marriage.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Very True!!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Only getting at the root causes can do any good. And she may not want to do this. Even if you do want to explore the root causes. But all you can do is try. By yourself or with a better MC.
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</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have tried to do this, but she then blames me for trying to create a problem that is not really there. I here what you are saying and do believe there are some of her past issues that need to be worked on.

Mys -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It might not have been about you. Maybe someone else was there or something else was going on in the background that you don’t know about. The reason I say that is because of the sudden mood change. It could be something simple like her not being able to get a good view of what she was trying to do with her hair in that position and just suddenly wanting to get it done. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do not think it was about me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think this is very important. Are you hearing her words? She’s telling you that she’s emotionally over loaded. People act differently when they’re stressed.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand and immediately gave her the benefit of the doubt.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> First, I think you’re right that there’s never a good time for bad news. So, doing something sooner rather than later might be the thing to do. In fact, considering this impending deal with your BIL, it might be the exact RIGHT TIME to step up and say something before she gets overly committed.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The problem is she is still dealing with her mom, she is already into the whole BIL thing and now the holidays. I am not trying to make excuses, but if I go home tonight and try to have a sit down, I know she will not be receptive, so why even try it right now? So I will wait. I also have to be careful because if I use the first available moment that she does not seem pre-occupied, this will also bite me as she will see it as this is all I have been thinking about and not really supporting her. I know this is a little mixed up type thinking, but it is where we are at for now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I also happen to agree that priorities are important. You really can’t have 12 top priorities or you’ll likely be both ineffective and very, very stressed. So, declaring a priority is a good way to go.
Now, one concern that I have is what you consider a priority and what you consider ‘focus’ to be. Because, I get the impression that by ‘making something a priority’ or ‘focusing’ you are more or less hoping that she will completely exclude all those other activities and focus solely on working on the marriage and meeting your needs. I’m not sure that’s what you mean, but is how you come across and I suspect THAT is why you get told you’re being ‘selfish and controlling’ and not so much because other people don’t understand what priorities are and why they are important.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I totally agree with you and understand what you are saying. I am definitely not trying to say deal with the M only and nothing else. Even I understand how unreasonable this is. What I am saying is, allow the M to have atleast equal opportunity to be worked on along with everything else. Unfortunately, what continually happens is that the M get put on the back burner to handle any other crisis that comes along. If my W keeps doing this, one day she may decide, "ok, now lets get back to that marriage thing," turn around and there is no M. Do you see what I am saying. The M and our R has ALWAYS (and I understand the use of ALWAYS) been put on life support to tackle any and all other crisis with the assumption the M (and R) is strong enough to wait.

Look at it this way (taking some of Baba's example), we meet and concieve a child in the first weekend we are together. All of a sudden we are pregnant and shift into survival mode and baby prep - Put relationship on hold to get through. Next, during the pregnancy, we both move to another state (each coming from a different state and both changing jobs) - Again relationship get put on hold. Next, I have to make my new job a success, while my W has to sort out our new apartment for us to live and the baby coming - Put relationship on hold. Next, Baby arrives - Put relationship on hold. Next, build new house - Put relationship on hold. Next, my job get in jeapordy and we have to make a very big decision to save the company so we have income, I have a job and we do not have to move and take a job where I will have to travel most of the year - Put relationship on hold. Now, the house is built, the baby is ok, our business is doing well and we have time to focus on us if we want - Put relationship on hold to handle any crisis that now comes into view. I am arguing that we have waited well long enough to tend to our relationship, but now, my W has a problem even trying to discuss our relationship and feels nothing is wrong, why, because we have always put our relationship on hold. Before my W realizes, our relationship is going to disappear and she will not even notice because our relationship would still be on hold.

So I hope you can see that I am not asking (or atleast my intent is not to ask) my W to give up everything else, but to merely put everything into perspective. We have been taking out a loan on our relationship for years and years and it is now time to pay the loan back or go bust.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think the most important thing is to come up with a list of specific things you’d like her to do which have nothing to do with the other things going on in her life. For example, if you’d like to have more open discussions about your relationship then set time aside to do that and make sure it happens. Or, if you’d like to spend 2 nights as date nights out or <whatever>. If your idea of ‘working on the marriage’ is that she has no other outside activities or that you dictate how she manages those activities then there is simply no way to make that come across as anything BUT selfish and controlling.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is good, but you see to me, the actual fact that I need to put this type of list together is a turn off for me because I need us to have that flame and desire again where we are both having the feeling of wanting to do things for and with each other and care about being with and not wanting to loose each other. This comes from with in and there is no list that can make this possible. Some of it is chemical, but being chemical does not mean it has to go away after 3-4 years. But, I know how you like lists, so I will also attempt one:

1) Planing Date night is good and sticking with it.
2) Giving me random hugs and kisses would go a long way.
3) Telling me once in a while how much I and us truly mean to you (ie making me feel that I am special to you).
4) Having physical intimacy at least once a week, even though I would be interested in much more frequency, would do a tremendous amount.
5) Showing me that I am special to you in mixed company such as grabing my hand or putting your arm around me or talking about me positively or telling me how much you love me in company goe a long way.
6) Not being turned off and actually being open and concerned about talking about our relationship and how we both feel about things.
7) Accepting my needs as valid and fair.

These are just some of the things that I would like to have my W do, but even just this list would make a World of difference in my feelings of our M.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Oh, ok. Well, it doesn’t seem to have helped all that much, did it?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think so.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yikes. Well, you don’t ask for much, do you? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hey, you expect the World, when you are willing to give the World. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Heh. Well, she did try to reach out to you by saying “Have a good day at work” and not saying “Another day ruined.” after the session. So, she did hear what you said and heard your unhappiness. Again, as long as you can make it about you and what you feel and make thoughtful requests that truly address the core problem, I think you’ll be fine. You NEED to make some thoughtful requests. Just be very, very careful not to diagnose to far along the line. For example, you assume that she’s not meeting your needs because she’s busy with other people. So, your solution is to what.. eliminate all the other people in her life?! Well, that comes across as controlling and, frankly, scary for anyone. Isolation is bad. Instead, ask for things FOR YOURSELF and let her manage her time, obligations, and relatives.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, I do ask for things for myself, but the problem comes when she says no and is not willing to negotiate. For instance, Do you remember that my W and I actually negotiated and reached an agreement with regards to my leaving for work in the monrings? Basically, when I leave in the mornings, my W is still in bed and I would go up to her and give her a hug and kiss good-bye. Well, she decided that she would rather have me let her sleep if she is sleeping. I did not like this because this was cutting the minimum affection I get per day by 50%. So I agreed that I would do this providing that on these days she would call me when she woke up to say good morning. I felt this would brighten my day enough and kind of make up for what I felt I was missing. We both agreed. Well last night we went to bed and I usually am the one who says good night. Last night I did not say anything and neither did she. This morning she was asleep so I let her be and went to work. In the past when I had done this she actually got upset with me. Anyway, I called her at about 11:15 because she had not called me and I was hoping she was not upset with me. When I called, she seemed like I she was getting on with her day and did not even notice I was gone. I asked her if she remembered that we had agreed her calling me on the days that I let her sleep. She immediately said, "Oh, yeah, I'm sorry. I forgot." We'll atleast she did not get mad at me for bringing it up.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Extremely Lost, I’m not saying that you truly want to eliminate all the people in your wife’s life. But, the way you describe the problem focuses so SHARPLY on how that is the problem that it leads one to wonder if those people weren’t there you’d think your wife would focus on you and you’d be happier. No where in there does there seem to be a proactive request for things you really want – just lengthy descriptions of what you don’t want and why it seems to keep happening. So, while I honestly don’t believe that’s how you FEEL, I need you to be aware that it’s how you come across (at least here).
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for the perspective. You are right, I do not mean to come across this way.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, there are a couple of things that I find very helpful in conflict resolution. One is a certain amount of empathy. I empathize with how my H must feel and that things truly ARE important to him.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can empathize with my W.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Another is a sense of perspective. I understand that everything isn’t really done TO me… it certainly AFFECTS me .. but most of the time, when he does something I don’t like there is something in it for him and he feels it’s in his best interest. I’d like to be able to negotiate with him, but I don’t expect him to just decide to choose MY best interest over his. I want him to come to the table with his Taker and get the best deal he can for himself. I also want to come to the table with MY Taker and get the best deal I can for me.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, a little harder, but workable. I am struggling with this a little at the moment. You know, it is a double edged sword, at least for my warped mind. Basically, if I choose to now always accept that my W's actions are not necessarily TO me, then I can relate to a lot of the things she does in a different POV, but with everything she does being considered by me to not be done TO me, I also start to trip up because of feelings that she does not care enough? Can you follow what I am trying to say, or have I garbled it up enough?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Something else that I think would really help you is the ability to stay focused on the problem and not chase carrots that are tossed my way. In many conversations, when someone gets in trouble, they push a button which turns the argument away from the real focus and leads down the merry path of ‘usual’ conflict. Examples are inflammatory statements like “Sex is all you want/think about/care about!” I can hear something like that and not have to make it true for me or feel the need to change (argue) that point with the other person. My response would likely to be: “Yes, sex is very important to me and so this is a really big problem. It IS very important and I’d really like to talk about it now.” Arguing against it only just deflects the discussion away from solution oriented discussion.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is admittedly pretty difficult and something that would throw us off track in the past. However, when I have my full awareness, I can now see this for what it is and shut it down.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You strike me as being way too concerned with the veracity of the facts as opposed to the message of the discussion. (But, that’s me, a Feeler. I know my Thinker H is the same way so whenever I have to use ‘feeling facts’ I always choose some obnoxiously wrong figure so he knows that I know I’m exaggerating.)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, I think I understand what you are saying. Instead of fact checking, I should just go with the message. The funny thing is that when the tables are turned and I try to deliver a "message" to my W and I might over exagerate, she also tends to try and argue the facts. So what gives? Your claim is that you and your H are the way you are, but mention nothing about someone being both ways and changing at their own convenience.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So, is your assertion that if your marriage doesn’t start out “right” then it’s doomed?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not at all, I am just reconfirming the old addage that if you have problems before you get married, marrying does not make them go away, in most cases, marrying will intensify the problems.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, all right. Maybe you’re right. It’s a good theory. So, let’s assume it’s true. How does that change what you’re going to do right now or over the next 2 weeks?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, alright. If we are playing an assumption game here, it actually would change what I would do over the next two weeks. For instance, if I knew my M was over due to insurmountable odds/issues, then I certainly would not spend a lot of money on my W for Christmas.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Fair enough. I’m not stuck on the ‘after-the-holidays’ schedule. It was a suggestion. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am not stuck on this schedule either, but I do agree that there are better times for things. I guess, I am just stuck. I just wish we could both say enough is enough. Lets drop the baggage and move forward or apart, but from this moment on, we are moving in a positive direction that each of us are putting in 100% effort either way. I absolutely hate being stagnent. I cannot stand the "hurry up and wait" kind of situations.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Being open to it and willing to accept it are two very different animals.
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Huh?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Unless I missunderstood what you were saying, I thought you implied that you never thought I was open to the possibility of my M not working out. This is why I said I am open to the possibility, but accepting this possibility means something totally different to me. In other words, I am aware that all things could come to an end, therefore, I understand this possibility for my M to end doe in fact exist. However, I have not gotten to the emotional position where I yet fully accept my M coming to an end. Does this make more sense?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yeah, well, you said you tried withdrawal and it didn’t help either. So, unless what you’re saying is you’re ready to put the papers in place without ever trying assertive Thoughtful Requests, then I don’t get your point. Did you like Withdrawal so much that you want to go back there, or what?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I did not like withdrawl because it is not how I want my M to be, but being in withdrawl is a lot happier place than where I have been for the last 8 months. Thats all I am saying. OK, you do have my attention. You have helped me to list out some of my ENs in MC. You have helped me through respectfully standing my ground about not being happy in my M and stating that I need physical intimacy, even in the shadow of my W trying to push all of the old buttons to run away from my doing this. Then we went stagnant over the last couple of weeks do to our current MIL and BIL and holiday situations. Why do you say that if I put papers in place right now, I would be doing so without trying assertive respectful requests. Could you please give me some examples or an explanation at least because I am under the impression that I have done this, all be it not for a lengthy period of time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Sure, but you haven’t asked for what you want yet. Most of this last couple of months you’ve been trying to avoid asking for what you want. Now it’s time to ask. You have a choice. You can ask how you’ve always asked or, you can ask differently. First and foremost is to come up with actual things to ask FOR. Those things should be specific, measurable actions your wife can do. Those things should be negotiated so your expectations need to be set very, very low. Give her some choices.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, well I provided a list in this post already. Remember, I have already asked for specific things as well as general catagories of what my needs are. I asked her to make out with me and she turned me down just the other day.

Take Care,

EL

Extremely Lost


I’m utterly confused right now. On the one hand, I hear you saying you don’t like the stagnation and that there’s never a good time to bring things up and you don’t want to ‘wait for a good time’ forever. On the other hand, I hear you saying you don’t want to actually begin a dialogue right now because it’s not a good time.

Shucks. You don’t even know when you’re winning! *nudges you* I was agreeing with you that you shouldn’t wait! What happened here?!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The problem is she is still dealing with her mom, she is already into the whole BIL thing and now the holidays. I am not trying to make excuses, but if I go home tonight and try to have a sit down, I know she will not be receptive, so why even try it right now? So I will wait. I also have to be careful because if I use the first available moment that she does not seem pre-occupied, this will also bite me as she will see it as this is all I have been thinking about and not really supporting her. I know this is a little mixed up type thinking, but it is where we are at for now. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I thought we established there wasn’t going to be a good time? So, even if now isn’t a good time.. tomorrow’s not going to be a good time. After the new year isn’t going to be a good time. Neither you nor I have the patience to wait decades talking about this so….now works.

That said, tonight might not be the BEST time because, since there are other things going on, I think you should have your ducks in a row because the message you are trying to send isn’t even coming across clearly here (to me) and I’m not emotionally invested in it at all. It seems like the very least you can do is get your message straightened out.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So I hope you can see that I am not asking (or atleast my intent is not to ask) my W to give up everything else, but to merely put everything into perspective. We have been taking out a loan on our relationship for years and years and it is now time to pay the loan back or go bust. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, perspective is fine but it comes across as insulting when someone tells you or asks you to ‘put things into perspective.’ I can’t think of a good way to say that which doesn’t come across as incredibly patronizing and condescending. Can you? Well, that’s not true. I can’t think of a way to do that WHILE asking for something to benefit myself that doesn’t sound condescending and patronizing. I talk about perspective and shifting it all the time here, but I’m not really benefiting from it or asking for anything for myself. It is different, I think.

Generally, the best thing to do is just ask for what you want and let the person juggle their life as they see fit. Let me put it this way, would any of this other stuff really bother you if you were getting at least some of your needs met at the same time?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This is good, but you see to me, the actual fact that I need to put this type of list together is a turn off for me because I need us to have that flame and desire again where we are both having the feeling of wanting to do things for and with each other and care about being with and not wanting to loose each other. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sure, but that is where you want to get, not where you start from.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 1) Planing Date night is good and sticking with it.
2) Giving me random hugs and kisses would go a long way.
3) Telling me once in a while how much I and us truly mean to you (ie making me feel that I am special to you).
4) Having physical intimacy at least once a week, even though I would be interested in much more frequency, would do a tremendous amount.
5) Showing me that I am special to you in mixed company such as grabing my hand or putting your arm around me or talking about me positively or telling me how much you love me in company goe a long way.
6) Not being turned off and actually being open and concerned about talking about our relationship and how we both feel about things.
7) Accepting my needs as valid and fair. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The problem with this list is that it’s vague. I know you might THINK you’re being clear, but trust me, you’re not. Put some specifics in there. Let her know exactly what she’s agreeing to and that way she can negotiate with using her Taker to get the best possible deal for herself.

I’ll give you an example – your “date night.” Oh, I can see the impending disaster. Let’s assume she agrees. She might think ‘date night’ happens on special occasions when nothing else is going on or if you happen to go out in a week she might think that “counts” for date night but you don’t. You’re going to get into an argument about it. The best thing to do is to be as clear and specific as possible.

“I’d like us to plan one evening together each month where it’s just the two of us going out to do an activity that we both enjoy. On that evening I don’t want to talk about our relationship or anything, I’d just like to get to know you and enjoy your company. My preference would be if we picked one day (like the 10th or the 2nd Friday of each month) to have this date night but that’s just an idea and I’m very willing to be flexible about that.”

I could go through the rest of the list but I think you get the idea. It’s very vague.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> These are just some of the things that I would like to have my W do, but even just this list would make a World of difference in my feelings of our M. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, this is the whole purpose of this exercise. No one is implying this is the best you get or all you should ever hope for. We’re just trying to get to the starting gate here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Hey, you expect the World, when you are willing to give the World </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Uh huh.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> OK, I do ask for things for myself, but the problem comes when she says no and is not willing to negotiate. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">These are the instances when you need to continue to make thoughtful requests. She might refuse to negotiate but if you are flexible and willing to suggest alternatives, then you can carry on some negotiation. You give up a little too easily when she says no. Now, I don’t mean pester her, I mean look for other things that might do the same type of thing. Don’t be so tied to any one solution that nothing else will do.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I asked her if she remembered that we had agreed her calling me on the days that I let her sleep. She immediately said, "Oh, yeah, I'm sorry. I forgot." We'll atleast she did not get mad at me for bringing it up. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, she forgot. It does happen. It often happens in lopsided arrangements. I’d love it if your wife would come to the table with some things she’d like to see but she doesn’t seem quite ready for that yet.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Thanks for the perspective. You are right, I do not mean to come across this way. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You’re welcome.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I can empathize with my W. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> OK, a little harder, but workable. I am struggling with this a little at the moment. You know, it is a double edged sword, at least for my warped mind. Basically, if I choose to now always accept that my W's actions are not necessarily TO me, then I can relate to a lot of the things she does in a different POV, but with everything she does being considered by me to not be done TO me, I also start to trip up because of feelings that she does not care enough? Can you follow what I am trying to say, or have I garbled it up enough? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I’m not sure I understand what you’re saying.

It sounds like you’re saying that unless your wife is willing to put your needs before hers (negotiate with her Giver and not her Taker) that she doesn’t care enough about you. I was saying that I don’t want my H to negotiate with his Giver. I WANT him to negotiate with his Taker. His Taker and I understand each other.

The impression that I get is that you want your wife’s Giver side to be the one to primarily interact with you – which is fine in many situations but it is absolutely horrible in negotiation situations. YOU need to be in there with YOUR Taker not your Giver, too. Two Givers negotiating is not productive.

I don’t know, maybe I’m missing the point so I’ll just say this. People who are head over heels in love still have Takers… they might ignore them for a while.. but they’re still there.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This is admittedly pretty difficult and something that would throw us off track in the past. However, when I have my full awareness, I can now see this for what it is and shut it down. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">*nods* Yeah, you’ve improved a lot in this area.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> OK, I think I understand what you are saying. Instead of fact checking, I should just go with the message. The funny thing is that when the tables are turned and I try to deliver a "message" to my W and I might over exagerate, she also tends to try and argue the facts. So what gives? Your claim is that you and your H are the way you are, but mention nothing about someone being both ways and changing at their own convenience. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, heh… believe me, I do understand this. I can’t even count the number of conversations we had about ‘what really happened or what really was said.’ The practical upshot of it is that we’ve discovered, over time, that those conversations never did anything but irritate the heck out of both of us. We both do it to some extent. It’s a natural tendency for people who have different perspectives. He tends to have a HARDER time putting ‘facts’ aside if they’re a ‘little wrong’ than if they’re ‘outrageously wrong.’ Me, I don’t really care – in for a penny, in for a pound. I just want to get to how to fix what we need to fix and move on with our lives.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Not at all, I am just reconfirming the old addage that if you have problems before you get married, marrying does not make them go away, in most cases, marrying will intensify the problems. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Heh. Ok, I agree with you here. But, I think everyone has problems. I’m not sure I’ve ever met a fairy tale couple yet. But, I will grant you that you two have definitely had your share of struggles. The thing is that your baggage doesn’t get less as you move on. If this marriage doesn’t make it, you’ll not only be twice divorced, you’ll have all the attendant child custody issue/arrangements to deal with in your next relationship.

I guess my point is that things aren’t moving towards simplicity; they’re heading towards complexity.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, alright. If we are playing an assumption game here, it actually would change what I would do over the next two weeks. For instance, if I knew my M was over due to insurmountable odds/issues, then I certainly would not spend a lot of money on my W for Christmas. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, why spend a lot of money on your W for Xmas this year?

I don’t mean be spiteful and get her a lump of coal, but I think a modest but thoughtful gift would make more sense – unless you’re like us and POJA Xmas gifts. I doubt that you do that though – being the old romantic that you are.

Think about this for a moment. Why are you going to give her an extravagant gift then tell her you’re unhappy with the marriage?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am not stuck on this schedule either, but I do agree that there are better times for things. I guess, I am just stuck. I just wish we could both say enough is enough. Lets drop the baggage and move forward or apart, but from this moment on, we are moving in a positive direction that each of us are putting in 100% effort either way. I absolutely hate being stagnent. I cannot stand the "hurry up and wait" kind of situations. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now THIS is a message I can 100% get behind. THIS is what you should be saying. Well, except for the ‘both 100% part.’ You still don’t get to dictate her % of involvement, but I think saying “Let’s do this or let’s not do it but let’s make a decision about what we’re doing together.” is a great message. Note that it has nothing to do with her mother, her brother, her sister-in-law, the homeowner’s association or anything else. It’s neat. It’s clean. It’s direct.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> However, I have not gotten to the emotional position where I yet fully accept my M coming to an end. Does this make more sense? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Uhm. No, not really but I’m not worried about it unless you are.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I did not like withdrawl because it is not how I want my M to be, but being in withdrawl is a lot happier place than where I have been for the last 8 months. Thats all I am saying. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Heh. Fair enough.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> OK, you do have my attention. You have helped me to list out some of my ENs in MC. You have helped me through respectfully standing my ground about not being happy in my M and stating that I need physical intimacy, even in the shadow of my W trying to push all of the old buttons to run away from my doing this. Then we went stagnant over the last couple of weeks do to our current MIL and BIL and holiday situations. Why do you say that if I put papers in place right now, I would be doing so without trying assertive respectful requests. Could you please give me some examples or an explanation at least because I am under the impression that I have done this, all be it not for a lengthy period of time. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, you barely got started talking about your EN’s. Part of being assertive is not giving up quite so easily. There is a fine line between badgering and assertion but most of the time the challenge is getting you to put your needs out there and ask for them. One example is when you asked to make out before your W left for her trip. Even though that didn’t turn out the way you wanted it to (it won’t always) it was a thoughtful request. You need MORE of those, not less.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> OK, well I provided a list in this post already. Remember, I have already asked for specific things as well as general catagories of what my needs are. I asked her to make out with me and she turned me down just the other day. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Right, but one request isn’t enough.

Anyway, I’m still confused as to what you want to do (are planning to do) because at first it seems you wanted to move forward and now I seem to be hearing you say you want to wait. Which is it?

Mys

Hello Mys -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I’m utterly confused right now. On the one hand, I hear you saying you don’t like the stagnation and that there’s never a good time to bring things up and you don’t want to ‘wait for a good time’ forever. On the other hand, I hear you saying you don’t want to actually begin a dialogue right now because it’s not a good time.

Shucks. You don’t even know when you’re winning! *nudges you* I was agreeing with you that you shouldn’t wait! What happened here?!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, I'm sorry about that. I am just really confused in the state I am. So here is a plan. We are going to MC next Tuesday again. How about I work towards starting things back up at this MC session? The session is next Tuesday and I am pretty flat out working even over this weekend. So, what do you suggest, work towards creating a specific list to present at this next session?

I'll have a think about my list and emoving the vagueness.

Thanks,

EL

Extremely Lost

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yeah, I'm sorry about that. I am just really confused in the state I am. So here is a plan. We are going to MC next Tuesday again. How about I work towards starting things back up at this MC session? The session is next Tuesday and I am pretty flat out working even over this weekend. So, what do you suggest, work towards creating a specific list to present at this next session? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, let’s take a step back and try and refine your message into a concrete thesis statement. What are you trying to get across? Let’s make it as clear and concise as possible. Put the list aside for the moment.

What do you want to say?

Mys

Hey Mys,

Well, I would like to say that I am not happy with where our M is at this point. I cannot be happy with it staying how it is. I need to feel that my needs are understood, validated and accepted as well as met. I need to feel appreciated for realizing my own problems and putting effort into changing these old habits into positive actions.

What do you think?

EL

Extremely Lost

Well, let’s see…

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, I would like to say that I am not happy with where our M is at this point. I cannot be happy with it staying how it is.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is good.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I need to feel that my needs are understood, validated and accepted as well as met. I need to feel appreciated for realizing my own problems and putting effort into changing these old habits into positive actions. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There are some problems with this. First of all, “I need to feel..” statements are almost always so vague as to be useless. It’s very difficult for someone to turn that into any kind of concrete action, you know what I mean? For example, maybe I feel understood, validated, and accepted if I tell you something once. That doesn’t mean that YOU will feel that way.

Another problem with this is that it presupposes her response. You need to feel your needs are understood (what if she doesn’t understand them?), validated (what if she doesn’t feel they’re valid?) and accepted (what if she’s not willing to accept them?).

So, my suggestion is that instead of asking for understanding, validation, and acceptance – you instead ask for communication and dialogue. That way she’s not necessarily pre-supposed to understand, validate, or accept your needs. The way you stated your original message almost sounded like you assumed those three things were in place (which is not a DJ because that actually casts her in a pretty positive light) but I’m not actually sure that isn’t assuming a bit too much.

How about something like: ”I’d like to be able to have a discussion with you about what my needs are in this marriage more frequently than our once a week MC sessions. Specifically, I’d like to set aside a 2 hour block for conversation about our marriage and what is going on between the two of us, good and bad, each week.”

Mys

Extremely Lost

I’ve been following your posts on Rocknrace’s thread and I thought I’d comment on it here, in your thread, to avoid a threadjack because I think it’s going in a different direction which is valuable.

I thought your statement here:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The other issue I struggled with is that when our Ws become emotionally distant, something as simple as a sorry and "I now realize what I was doing was hurtful and I will not do it again" does not immediately fix the problem. We have somehow conditioned the women we love to be emotionally distant to us. Reconditioning them to feel safe and emotionally attach with us again takes time. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">..was very astute. (I was cheering “You GO, EL!”) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

But, I’m wondering what your thoughts are on Rocknrace’s statement here:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Originally posted by Rocknrace, emphasis added by me.

Or I might get lucky and the woman that put me here realizes I'm starting to die (divorce). But if she lets me out I'm not going to hand over my sexualty again just, so when it starts getting healthy, she can lock it up again. I don't trust her... The only way I can trust her is to not give her all of it, if at all... She has to earn it back, little by little. Don't expect me to initate, and fall in love. If she lets me, I will... but I will take it for what is, thats all, letting me... If she want to earn my trust to give her again what she locked away... She is going to have to INITIATE, INITIATE and keep INITIATING with enthusiaism and REAL LOVE, not guilt, until I feel she has given me those WASTED YEARS BACK. When I feel my love come back I will then intiate, and if I do intiate... she better not stop iniating, because that will show she is getting to complacent, and I know when she gets complacent, I will slowly get pushed again into confinent... but not this time... I'll leave.... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I’m specifically interested on your thoughts about the part where he says that he needs his wife to ‘earn those wasted years back.’ Of course, I can’t say for certain this is the case, but I wonder if you think that when your wife says “It’s going to take time to earn trust back.” part of that stems from a similar type of frustration (about your controlling/jealous tendencies and not lack of SF, of course)?

And, most important of all, if that IS part of her need for time, what are your thoughts and feelings about that? I think you can relate to where Rocknrace is coming from (he’s been so frustrated for so long that a simple ‘coming around’ isn’t going to be trusted), and I wonder if this resonates with you and your situation in a similar way even though the source of the frustration is different. How willing would you be to continue working on your relationship if you felt you were in a 'earn the wasted time back' situation?

Mys

Mys -

I do not have a ton of time and want to answer all that you wrote, but I only have the time to say that in Rocknrace's deal, I feel it is truly close minded to think this way. This is why I have trouble with my W possibly thinking this way. You see, I admit to not understanding or seeing what she was trying to tell me and do find myself in the reverse of what nary92 is in, but if I stay and my W continues on the same path, I cannot say that in one year, I will not be where Rocknrace is right now.

Currently where I am at, if my W said to me, "Look, we both were making mistakes and I see how I am negatively effecting you as well, lets start over and leave the past behind us, I would "currently" be all over this. I am open to learning to love again. However, I think I am partly on the cusp of loosing this ability because I am at the point of questioning my attraction to my W because of the lack of even what I percieve as "lack of trying" in the SF department.

I hope this makes sense, I'll get back to this as soon as I can.

Take Care,

EL

EL,

I've been lurking, letting mys and mos assist you. I think they are both doing a great job.

I know you're working with mys to establish a better way to communicate to your W what you need w/o offending her but I did want to bring something up that mys asked about earlier. I feel it is important.

You two were talking about what YOU consider to be normal. From your interpretation you develop expectations of your W. I think MOS tried to point out that it is those expectations that create problems for you. It is those expectations that create resentment for you and it is probably those expectations that come off looking like controlling behavior to your W. Although you have your taker trying to protect you or get what you need your taker also has to play nice.

Your W loves you and your expecting her to show it the way you want it shown. Wouldn’t that be grand!!! The truth is it may be too much out of character for her to do that.

What if your expectations become LoveBusters for your W? Maybe she is very uncomfortable meeting your expectations and when she’s told by you that she is expected to behave or act a certain way it becomes a huge drain in her LoveBank. It is disrespectful for you to assume that she needs to behave a certain way because you expect or feel it is very normal. Yes, it may be too much for you to ask her to call to check in every night!!!

I would like to describe for you a comparison to my life.

I’m a lot like your W. When I go out of town for a weekend with the boys I know my W wants me to call to let her know how I’m doing. Her reasons for expecting a call are different than yours but I know she wants me to call. Yet to me those calls can, at times, seem to be over the top, controlling or needy. (She feels the same way I do when she’s the one out of town so she has a bit of a double standard but that’s another story). When I’m out of town (usually just an enjoyable golf weekend) I don’t want to be burdened with having to make sure I call her every night. If an emergency comes up at home she can contact me and if something happens to me I’m with friends who will keep her informed. Neither one of us feels less loved because we discussed it and now we don’t feel like it’s imperative that we call to check in.

EL, I was behaving just like you not too long ago. I was pretty sure my W loved me… so why is it I never have my expectation of SF met? It always seemed like there was a reason (these reasons were just assumptions on my part) it wasn’t going to happen. And when it did happen it wasn’t the way I wanted it. It didn’t feel right. It felt cold, mundane, and had an all too familiar routine. I’d sit around building resentment instead of communicating. Instead of opening up and communicating to find a working solution I would just wallow around in self-pity building resentment of my W. It wasn’t until I went through some dialogue with my MB friends (MOS and Mys) that I realized I was the source of the problem. I was expecting too much because I wanted things when I wanted things and I wanted them the way I wanted them. Finally after much todo here I began talking with my W discussing how I was feeling and how I was perceiving things. In the end I found out my W does truly love me and wants to make me happy and is willing to fulfill my needs. Just not in the way I used to expect to get them. Now it is my responsibility to ask. I can’t be afraid to ask her or worry about rejection. Because it isn’t rejection it’s just making sure it’s right for both of us. My W doesn’t care about SF. She’s fine when we’re in the thrawls of it but she isn’t one to grab the bull by the horns (so to speak). If I want SF then I have to ask. I have to understand the answer may be no and that is not her rejecting me but her needing it to be the right time for her as well. Today I can honestly say that by dropping my expectation of her I’ve grown to love her more and am now rid of any resentment I have towards her and any lack of SF. In other words I changed my expectations. It wasn’t her changing it was me.

Now I’m not saying that you’re wrong for feeling the way you do but I think this behavior you exhibit doesn’t work for you. It is unfair that you expect your W to do as you wish or live up to what you consider to be normal. Why she’s on the other side thinking it’s unfair for you to expect it. Neither one of you is wrong (because there is no right or wrong) there is only working and non-working. It is disrespectful for you to state what is normal. No two people are alike and each one feels different things so what truly is NORMAL? And what does normal have to do with your W? What is it mandatory she live up to your expectation of that?

Instead of you EXPECTING your W to behave a certain way, then venting like a victim when she doesn’t meet those expectations, you two need to work towards open and honest communication so you can find a working solution. Sometimes that solution is a compromise but either way the solution has to be one that is POJA’d.

I brought this up because I feel it is you and your expectations that are creating resentment in you towards your W and is also probably creating resentment in her towards you. It isn’t the lack of your W meeting your expectations that is killing your M it is the lack of the ability of you two to communicate and find solutions that allow you two to feel appreciation for each other instead of resentment.

I hope this makes some sense and gives you an idea of what MOS was saying when she talked about victim speak. Instead of waiting for your W to meet your expectations work towards working agreements. You do have some control over the situation in one way, shape or form.

Hello MyAlias,

It has been a while, I am glad you are still around.

I see what you are saying.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You two were talking about what YOU consider to be normal. From your interpretation you develop expectations of your W. I think MOS tried to point out that it is those expectations that create problems for you. It is those expectations that create resentment for you and it is probably those expectations that come off looking like controlling behavior to your W. Although you have your taker trying to protect you or get what you need your taker also has to play nice.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I see what you and MOS are meaning here. Something I cannot get my head around is that you guys are telling me it is unfair for me to have expectations about my W and this is what is causing our issues (to sum it up in a nut shell). However, where does this suggestion stop? I'll try to explain and use rediculous examples to make points more obvious.

If you say, it is wrong of me to have any expectations of my W and it is unfair to her and if I do then I am being unfair to my W, I would have to say, ok, in the strictest definition, I am being unfair to my W.

Now, lets say I had a pet that I cherished very much. Lets also say that I had this pet before I met my W and still have the pet today. Lets also say this pet is a dog and its name is Fluffy. Now, the mere fact that I have had Fluffy for years while married to my W for years and Fluffy has remained healthy and happy, with all of the years that I have been at work and my W has been around the house, leads me to have the expectations that my W cares about Fluffy, takes care of Fluffy and loves Fluffy. Lets say I go home tonight and my W has killed Fluffy. You are telling me that I should not be mad at my W for not meeting my expectations regarding Fluffy because she is a different person and it is wrong of me to expect her to act in a certain way.

Now, first let me say that I do not have a pet named Fluffy and no animals were actually hurt during the making of this example. I used this crazy example to illustrate, at what point is it accepted or should it be accepted in society and with in all of us as humans that having certain expectations is correct and proper?

You guys are telling me that it is unfair of me to have the expectation of my W calling me to say good night when she is out of town, under large amounts of stress. First, I want to know that my W is doing ok. Second, I love to hear her voice. Third, I love to feel like she actually thought about me and desired to hear my voice. Also, when I have went on business trips, I would get in trouble for not doing this call. With all this said, "I find it difficult to accept that I am actually acting negatively because I desire my W to call me and say good night, especially if I have not heard at all from her that day." Well, I do have trouble with this because using the "it is not fair to set expectations on your partner" could directly be flipped around and stated, "it is unfair of my W to expect me to be fine with no communication while she is gone." This is why I ask the question "where does this stop?"

I am not trying to play victim here by any means, I am trying to re-establish my understanding of the rules on how to improve my M in the situation I am in. But, in a way, with being told that I am wrong for setting expectations and then having feelings (one way or the other) because these expectations are not met is in fact being unfair to me because I in fact am being scolded because I am not following someone else's expectations. Do you see where I am coming from on this. So in a way, to be called out on this, someone else has to have made a decision that my expectations are wrong and in fact theirs are right.

I am not trying to cause any arguments here, I am truly raising, what I feel is a fair question to try and understand this better. In a way, I am asking for help through clarification.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What if your expectations become LoveBusters for your W? Maybe she is very uncomfortable meeting your expectations and when she’s told by you that she is expected to behave or act a certain way it becomes a huge drain in her LoveBank. It is disrespectful for you to assume that she needs to behave a certain way because you expect or feel it is very normal. Yes, it may be too much for you to ask her to call to check in every night!!!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How do you handle the situation where my expectations for her are LBs and her expectations for me are LBs and we both feel strongly on them. First you would tell me to communicate and negotiate. Unfortunately, we are still working on both of us getting to the point of relying on negotiating. I am very willing to negotiate, but my W has not fully taken this on board yet. Parts of my previous posts have been asking how do I help my W understand that it is hurtful and wrong to force her POV onto me, which is what everyone else here had to drill into my head?

Thanks for the thoughts MyAlias, it is always good hearing from you. By the way, can I ask a personal question? You said that as soon as you lowered your expectations things became a lot better in your M. You also said that your W did not change because it was you who needed to (or something like this). I am confused, in some of your earlier posts, you were unhappy with the frequency and style of your SF with your W. Are you telling me that you have now lowered your expectations, accepted how things were and everything is now ok? If this is the case, I cannot follow your advice towards a happy M because having physical intimacy once a year is not something I will ever accept and is a choice that I make for myself. There is no amount of accepting that will convince me otherwise.

Maybe I misunderstood as I have usually been told I do.

Take care,

EL