I appreciate the 2x4s and objective feedback .. I felt for the longest time that we were "fixed" only to be taken by surprise from this series of events that unfolded and I am shocked at how quickly they escalated and erased this fantastic year that went by. But I am also glad I have this place to talk to someone .. i had not spoken to anyone about these events other than my wife and well ... that was not going very well so i was internalizing it.


I had it briefly mentioned because I dont know if it was a REAL EA or not (back when i started my thread before we both came on MB) ... Yeah .. she bashed me a bit and the guys would tell her what she wanted to hear, but never did i see her ever tell any of them ILU or that she wants to be with them .. meet etc. But she would DEF be further out of love from me after being validated by these other guys and I would always feel insecure and make it worse with my reactions.

I also didnt think much of it because her story was that she was looking up peoples babies on the net and the keylogs backed up that story as she had looked at many other previous baby pics of many different people before heading over to OMs page to see if she could see his. But his wall is blocked and so are his pics. But yes ... it brought me an eerie feeling of insecurity and I reacted to it very negatively instead of giving it rational thought and approaching it with respect. We both know of the keyloggers .. so I believe her when she says she didnt do it to intentionally hurt me. She can look at the logs on both our PCs just as easy as I can, so I am giving her the benefit of the doubt as she has given me no other reason to NOT believe her. It just happened at a bad time.

Another trigger happened also .. we recieved a christmas card from my wifes mother and her AP also. They are in fact married now and my step dad is dating and planning on marrying my mother in laws AP ex wife. ........that was fast .. wow.

@ armymomma We may just do that. My wife decided to delete everyone she feels I may have an issue with off her FB account. She did that without me asking. Tightened up her EPs.

We both agreed to get back to the basics, up our UA time (we started by reading the 3 policies again and it seemed to have new meaning this time for some reason) and reread the new version of HNHN and I will mention to my wife that we should possibly get SAA also and see what she says.

Again, I appreciate the objective feedback and 2x4's. For a while there i was loosing my sanity.

MNG

Edit: Merry Christmas! *cheers to everyone in hopes they have a safe and successful holiday filled with joy, fun, family and good times!"

Well .. things are going alot better especially since christmas is over. We managed to keep the "conversations" calm and even had a few moments of enjoyment as we hosted christmas dinner for our entire family.

I recognized one of my issues during this past turmoil. That is I am not honest about how i feel sometimes. I have a bad habit of not calling my wife out on the things that bug me .. rather I bring them up when my wife has an issue with me ... and throw back at her the things that have gone by that bugged me but never called her on. I hate rocking the boat.. and so I gotta get out of this habit.

The lovebusters my wife does to me I usually brush off (she swears frequently ... directly at me .. or indirectly and i get withdrawn quickly) I learned i have a high need for conversation as well as she does .. (caused by being raised by single mom?) My wife occasionally thinks I am the wife and shes the husband lol since some of my high needs are attributed to women...

This year our new years resolution is to be more honest about what bugs us and call it when we see it. My wife then said if we dont call it on the spot you cant bring it up later (enemies of conversation right?) So if my wife points out a lovebuster I did .. i cant throw back in her face something that bugged me last week that i didnt call her on. This is going to be a tough one for me for some reason. Any suggestions?

The lovebusters my wife said I have currently is

1. Nail biting ... (yuck i know)I quit for a while .. grow my nails out some and soon as I get stressed out BAM .. my nails are gone .. and i get hangnails like crazy!

2. Not emotionally honest 100% of the time.


I was glad to have a week after christmas to recover from the stress christmas created. We have spent the week together with the kids relaxing, reconnecting and catching up on our UA time. Its has helped ALOT. (back to basics right?) SO .. i gotta stop biting my nails .. and be honest more about the things that bug me about my wife and call her on them. I hesitate ... but I did it a few times already and got a positive response instead of the usual defensive response she usually gives me so thats a plus.



Crazy how quickly you can fall back into old habits and lovbusters under stress. Crazy how You can go from hating each other (for a brief few days) back into intimacy again only after a week of reconnecting and re-establishing our MB plan.

MNG

hi mng. i'm going to avoid the recent FB/OM thing and let others with experience comment on that.

i just wanted to say that i've only read the most recent 50 posts on your thread, and it seems like the stress from your extended families cause a lot of tension between you and your w. have you had an O&H discussion about this and POJA'd some ideas?

i know you can choose your family like you can your friends, but you can choose when/how/if you engage with them. just food for thought from an outsider's perspective.

Thanks Letty. Yes we have POJA'd the inlaws and such, however .. they just do as they please anyhow IE: show up unannounced, untactful conversations, if any of them have dirt on another they tell everyone etc. Its horrible. Often times things can be OK .. but occasionally the drama gets out of hand. I wish more of my family took on marriage builders .. but unfortunatley almost all of them are adulterers. SO .. we make little effort to interact with them since its usually unpleasant.

Most of my close family is chosen. The only blood relative i live close to is my dad .. and his common law wife (the source of 75% of the family drama currently). Everyone else was just sort of adopted over time. A majority of my blood relatives dont associate with me much because I live close to my dad and my family is in little chunks all over the place. No one gets along very well.

Actually this weekend my wife said to me (after PLENTY of UA time ) "You know hunny, if we can keep the good vibes going like they are currently (meaning no love busters coupled with meeting EN's as we have spent a TON of time together since christmas was over without the external family members around) I dont need anyone but you!" She says she is quickly falling back in love with me again. WOO HOO! And its been showing. Been lathered in love lately and feeling pretty good about life again.

My wife and I made a News years resolution to make 2013 better than 2012 .. even though 2012 was pretty darn good up til christmas. Next year Christmas will be great too as I think we fixed up our negative christmas neuro pathway triggers from this year.


P.S. I am SO glad christmas is over. Its like a breath of fresh air. Also .. as for the OM/FB thing ... I am pretty sure thats over now too. It was a momentary lapse of judgement. The guy has been blocked .. removed .. and locked out of my wifes FB account from every direction possible that FB can accomplish it from. My wife did all that on her own without me asking (she showed me after). SHe realized her error and has since appologized and I also appologized for my reaction to it. So we are moving forward is positive light.

MNG

Hey Nice Guy,

Thanks for the good report. It sounds as if you got everything back on track quickly.

Just a couple of thoughts.


You and W should be very aware that IF things get a little rough, she will be tempted to check in on OM.

Take a look at all the POJA information and be absolutely certain neither one of you is doing anything that is not with enthusiasm. No one is supposed to sacrifice anything in POJA. To do that, you both have to be radically honest.

I have read that some couples do an MB review at the beginning of every year. I think it is probably a good idea.

AM

Absolutely Armymama

We have spent quite a bit of time these past few weeks catching up on UA time (reluctantly at first due to withdrawl feelings from Christmas drama fall out, but its getting easier again) and going over love busters .. and re did our ENQs .. we noticed we are a bit off again as we have not redone our ENQs for quite some time. In regards to the POJA .. thats exactly what we did ... went back over all the POJA stuff and realized we both were not being RH with each other and sacrificing and really without realizing it until it was too late.


Its scary how easy it is to lose sight of the MB stuff when your in the heat of emotional turmoil and how quickly it can escalate to withdrawl for the both of us. We had to make a conscious effort to STOP even though it felt more natural to stay withdrawn and allow our takers to drive us further apart. Its rediculas! I even said to my wife during one of our heated moments.

"hun, this is crazy .. how we can go form hardly keeping our hands off each other to such indifference in such a short amount of time!"

My wife agreed... then asked me to leave her alone for a bit to calm down. Then we re approached the subjects with a more neutral approach with the logical solutions of MB. Its seems really hard for my wife at times to be logical .. so its usually up to me to bring the realization to the table about waht part of MB we may be lacking in and how to address it and then let my wife stew on it for a bit (usually a day or so til she lightens up).

BUT .. so far so good. We are back on track .. hopefully anymore setbacks are resolved much quicker in the future. Sometimes I feel silly posting this stuff as it seems it should be second nature to me by now.. but the objective opinions of you guys bring it to clear light when the fog rolls in and things get out of hand.

Your insights and opinions and thoughts are MUCH appreciated.

MNG

The really great thing about MB is that if something goes amiss, there is a solution. It is always possible to re-visit the principles and see which one has fallen off a little.

Glad to hear things are so much better.

We really like you guys.

AM

Thanks! .. I appreciate that. I know I havent been contributing much lately ... so I appologize for that. Things are getting better by leaps and bounds (part of the reason i havent been posting much). As quickly as it got out of hand between us its coming back even faster.

My wife has that sparkle in her eyes again and is rewriting everything in positive light. Like none of December ever happened.

MNG

Memories are reconstructed using cues from the present... so this isn't surprising.

Well .. brief update .. Cant talk long as I am at work. I am currently separated from my wife. At my parents place temporary. I had a HUGE angry outburst and totally lost control of my self. The result was the cops got called on me (didnt actually hurt my wife but it scared her so bad). I have been asked to get anger management by my wife and even then shes not sure if I can be the man she needs me to be anymore. She doesnt want to do phone counselling with the harleys due to the fact that she feels that MB is not fully working for her or we cant seem to follow it and make each other safe in times when frusteration mounts up.

I am lost ... and feeling very alone .. and very desperate. My outburst was uncalled for and in the process my wife got accidently hurt (she cut her fingers on her key ring trying to snatch them away from me after i threw them when i got out my vehicle and retrieved them again and went to hand it to her)

NO excuse I know ... i can go into more details later. Wife is not sure how long she wants me away for. I feel like my entire life is crashing in before my eyes and I am being a self fulfilled prophecy and going to repeat what my dad did to us and what my wifes parents did to her.

MY wife also admitted she has some issues with controlling her disrespectful judgements and tones and her anger also, but whats me to put the first foot forward since I am scarier than she is when I lose my temper.

The sad part is i know WHAT I am supposed to do .. just not sure how to stop it once i get to that point. For the most part I cope with it trying to keep the peace ... but my self esteem has gone up alot lately and I am having a hard time with my wifes disrespect.

Feel free to ask any questions .. or give me any 2x4s...

p.s. I have been out of the house since friday and when people ask me whats going on my story gets back to my wife and bites me in the [censored] as she now feels I am trying to turn everyone agasint her. I dont feel thats the case .. but my perspective def paints it that way. This has been brewing since christmas... the tension is so thick you can cut it with a knife. Shes not in love .. I am not in love but I feel she has more power over the situation than I do. Cops told me the could of charged me for assault for throwing the keys and my wife getting cut... they even told me if i slam cupboards and doors i can be charged with mischief.

WTF is going on ...

I got an appotinment with a local counsellor as per my wifes request but shes right i need to get a grip on my temper when I feel provoked and disrespected. I should not let it get to me that bad and I cant seem to not let it in the moment.

MNG

I'm so sorry to hear about this, MNG.

Would you say that you and your wife are working towards a reconciliation? Has she established conditions for this to take place?

Have you suggested MB phone coaching to her?

What specific incident led to the angry outburst?

Thanks SugarCane for your reply.

I hope we are working towards reconcilliation ... in my current situation Where I am staying .. i am being grilled for info while I ma there by my dad and step mom. Seems when i vent to them somehow the info is leaked back to my wife ... including maybe some stuff i shouldnt have said but spoke out of spite and hurt. Much of which is true .. but it still getting back to me and biting me in the [censored].

Her conditions are for me to get anger management and she stated the next time i lose my temper she is going to leave me forever. I feel so insecure. I dont know if i can promise that. ALso To have completed some or all of the counselling .. i have never cheated ... nor hit my wife .. but in the last two conflicts (which started from practicaly nothing but escelated into everything we have ever been mad at each other about) I have unintentionally hurt her. The first time we had a few drinks and we were horse playing around .. and i accidently hurt her hand ... sprained her thumb actually when i went to block her playful slap at me... she didnt respond but gave me this look .. like i had done it on purpose ... wouldnt respond to my questions ... and looked like she was going to pass out .. i got a bit worried .. and started to reach for her hand to see if she could move it and she got very verbally abusive. I reacted in kind ... (booze fueled obviously and its not like we drink that often) but anyhow .. i reacted in such a manner that i came across very disrespectful at first in her opinion ... i got her some ice after a few mean exchanged words .. and went to bed. The next morning we began to talk about the incidend from the night before .. and i was met with alot of blaming ... and alot of critisizim over my reactions. My wife told me to "get lost" so i went away. My daughter DD14 was asking whats up .. and i said to her your mom told me to F off. My wife started becoming irate that she did not say that .. and i explained to her that from my perspective get lost is the same as "f off" and she insisted its not and that talking like that to my dd14 is child abuse and she will not tolerate it.

I argued the point ... and asked her to look up the definition of both .. bad mistake.

Things calmed down for a few days (both of us in a state of withdrawl at this point) and my wife asked me to get anger maangement for my unloving and loud reactions.. so i agreed.

So i spent a few days looking up counsellors and trying to organize it to be convineinet for my wife to attend as well .. but she didnt feel she had any issues .. and it was all me .. all i could hear from her was her blaming. SO .. i went to work .. did some reasearch on my work PC .. an made a few calls. I got a reply back from one guy who is (in my opinion) too expensive ... my wife told me i was to only seek a male counselloer (trying to instill the MB rule no talking to opposite sex ppl about our marriage issues) and that really narrowed down the choices by 75% or more.

So ... my wife tells me "you have all day at work, find and go the the first person that will take you in to help you with your problems" well i felt offended by this statement but did as she asked. I was told I would get a call within 24- 48 hours to set up an appointment.

When i got home from work the day she asked me to have an appointemnt set up .. she picked me up form the transit station and as soon as i got in the truck i was faced with the question. "did you get that appointment set up yet?" I said .. nope ... (soon as i said nope i was interupted with much disrespect and was not able to complete what i had to say as i didnt have the answer she was looking for ... and i lost it. We had a yelling match in the cab of the truck of which i was tring to explain to her that these things dont just happen over night and to please give it a rest (in a not so respectful tone at this point as i was getting really mad by her disrespect) and so i said to her. "i cant take this anymore .. and got out of the truck took the keys from the ignigtion and threw them across the parking lot as i walked away from the truck.

What i failed to realize was .. the keys were not my keys. In my blind madness i thought they where mine. As soon as i noticed they where hers i went over and picked them up and started going back to the truck with them. As soon as i reached out to hand her the keys .. she quickly snatched them away form me before i had a chance to really let go. This resulted in her finger getting cut. She started screaming at me that i had cut her. I yelled back she cut herself by snatching the keys from me... and i walked away as she was telling me i had made my choice and all i had to do was ask her for a few more days in a respectful way and she would have been fine with that. Well as i said .. i never got that chance as i was interupted before i even finished speaking when i got into the truck.

SHe told me to go home ... pack my stuff .. and GTFO. I called home .. asked my daughter to dig out a suit case becasue mom just kicked me out .. and when i got home .. i packed my stuff ... kids crying and yelling at mom to give me a 2nd chance... me crying ... i left. My wife feels I am over the top abusive.And she fears me when I am mad. I have nver hit my wife ... but 1.5 years ago .. when we hit a low similar to this .. and my wife didnt want to give up the guys she was talking to on the net i threatened to kill my self (i actually got my guns out and amuntion). It was a huge mistake and my esteem was sooo low at the time and i felt soo insecure i didnt know what to do to make her stop hurting me .. A mistake I would never make again.. but she assumes I will stoop to that level again. I have never even so much as mentioned my guns in a tiff. They are locked up like our laws require them to be ... and that time my dad came and took my gun safe keys and ammo from me til the next hunting season.

So... 2 days later .. I am at my dads house ... working in his yard to pay my rent as he calls it. I am being bombarded by phone calls from all sorts of family. Whats going on .. etc etc ... Finally i cant stand being at my dads becasue they will not let up on the talk about what happened .. and i tell my wife I am coming home. I dont give her a choice.. with that she gets all worried that I am about to come over and make a huge scene and says to me in a text that i leave her no choice to call the cops.

A while passes ... and I am still working in my dads yard. I get a call .. i forgot to mention to my wife i had changed my mind i was too busy at dads. It was the cops ... they asked me where i was .. they wanted to talk to me. My wife told them about my past behaviours .. and they told her she has ground to charge me with assault for throwing her keys ... and cutting her hand. They told me i can not even so much as huff around the house and slam a cupboard or i can be charged with mischief. The cops also suggested That i get my guns removed so they are no longer an issue that can be used agasint me. This is the first time in my life i have ever had to deal with the cops where i was involved.

My wife admits that she has a few issues to deal with but that i have no right to get angry for any way she treats me .. and I am responsible for my reactions to whatever she does ... even if i feel she deserves it .. (she admits sometimes she does but i should control myself)

I am beside myself right now ... thinking WTF just happened ... it feels insane ... i feel blindsided ... i feel alone .. i feel insecure .. i feel so much anxiety over this im still in shock.

What should I do now? She wont listen to reason She DEF wont do MB phone coaching (i suggested that but she says we know it all but at this point she doesnt want to do it or meet my needs as i have offended her far too much for her to even bother anymore) ... however she did say if my counsellor wants to talk to her she will go in .. but feels i need to do the hard work here. I feel provoked ... tricked ... baited ... like somthing else is going on that I am not privy to.

Sorry for hte long post ... but I am still in shock .. and fear i am going to lose my kids and wife that i love so dearly. I acept all the blame in our phone calls .. but that doesnt seem to be good enough. Some ppl i talk to suggest i should just get ready to get on with my life that this is coming to an end... I dont want that ...but my fuse is so short with my wife .. as soon as i hear blame ... i get very defensive and cant even talk to her without losing my cool now.

Suggestions? sorry this is so long.

MNG

You both have anger issues.

I only have a brief moment just now, but my suggestion is for you to read markos's threads and contact the same anger management specialist he used/uses. You should be looking for a behavioural therapist who will focus on your stopping the behaviour.

It may be true that your wife has just as bad an anger problem as you do, but you need to work on yourself even if she refuses to work on herself at the moment.

I hope you get more responses today.

From one 'nice guy' to another.... Hang in there!

I feel like your situation is similar to ours, which means I dont have as much advice, but you are definately not alone! So try and relax a little, and focus on what you need to get done.

My DW would do her best to provoke me, but now, I see what she is doing, escalating the tempers, and I break off the conversation to prevent another bad experience. Women seem to use words as their weapons.

I am also pursuing a counselor. It does take time. So in some respects... I have "put my relationship needs and expectations on hold" until I can fix some of her complaints. I've recognized that I am no longer that attractive 'nice guy' personality I once was, and am focused on rebuilding that.

My DW has plenty of LB but now I only gently let her know what I like and dont like without being judgemental. This is a real struggle for me to rethink my use of words and mental point of view to avoid my own LBs.

I am also more careful with what I share with my family. They will try and help, but DW sees this as painting her as the bad guy, when I play that part.I come here to vent when i have to. I will talk with them for babysitting help and explain how important it is to get UA alone time.

Based on my experience with gaming, i would bet $1 that she is chatting on-line too. Maybe somebody who doesnt argue and is a 'nice guy' like the one she used to know. You have to be nicer than that guy. Or she assumes you are chatting with women and she's p.o.ed at that.

My DW sees my 'nutty-ness' as a weakness, so I havent shared too much detail with her, but I do share with her the tips and methods I have read about. I want her to know I take it serious, and continuing to work on 'me'.

My $0.02

MNG,

The best I can offer you is a heavy load of 2x4s. In the 10 years I�ve been here those things have proven the hardest to hear � but in the end the most important and the most beneficial.

So here goes ...

From my perspective it appears you say you own your brunt of the responsibility but still seem to cast blame on your W.

I read this long post and I see a lot of excuse making for your behavior. You have some horrible behaviors that have NO PLACE in a marriage ... I don't care what your spouse is like. Anger and disrespectful judgments begets more anger and DJs. Stop the current destructive ways you interact with people ... most specifically your W. Stop trying to retaliate for her poor behavior with even more poor behavior. Someone has to step up.

If you can do that then you can help change the dynamic in your R. You will learn how to calmly dissolve her anger or at least teach her, in a mature way, how that type of behavior won�t be tolerated.

You have to do this regardless of your R with your W. You cannot continue these behaviors and take them with you into another R should you divorce. You�ll still be the same guy with the same behaviors.

The goal of MB is to make your M change but you don�t do that by changing the other person . NO, the goal is to make YOU change into the best marriage partner and the M can only grow and prosper from there.

I say get a full dose of introspection going and don�t stop until your side of the street is immaculate. Once you�ve done that you can discuss your W�s behavior from a position of strength.

Have you seen this?

Anger Management 101

Have you looked into AngerBusters?

I read your story and it feels like a lot of situations between my wife and I. We got to a point where we would start an argument about how I did XX and she would make a DJ and I would feel the need to make one back, and next thing you know doors are slammed, things are thrown, and we are in a terrible situation. While I never want to hurt her, we would let our anger get the best of us, and take it too far.

Since I cannot control her behavior, I have to control mine. When she says something disrespectful or has an AO, I take a breath and just apologize. There are times it is difficult because she will lecture me, but I have to refrain from trying to defend my behavior. There are times where I will just walk away and do something else for an hour. Or I will go for a 5 mile run to clear my head.

I recently read an article about how people with built up stress will overreact to minor situations. It made me think a lot about how I act in regards to road rage, or being angry at people in stores or restauraunts. I have made it a mission to stop being so angry. I feel that if I adapt this to my whole life, eventally it will become the habit to not react, instead of my bad habit of overreacting.

Yes. This is m h like what I have been doing. When I have time to take a break, I start to realize I've got my teeth clenched, my shoulders are locked in knots, and my legs stiff like I'm holding up a wall. It sounds so California metaphysical BS, but I focus on relaxing my mind, body and muscles. I am amazed how tense I find myself.

Now when DW is winding up, I recognize the tension forming and know to disarm the situation. This has been really helpful.

Thanks for the responses. I got my counsellor appointment pushed ahead to today. My Supervisor told me to go get my life dealt with my job will be here when i get back.


I totally agree with this statement. Which is why I am putting the first foot forward to better myself. What I have realized is that over the years I have been MrComplacent and the peace keeper (hence how i came up with the user name MrNiceGuy).

For most of my marriage I feel that in these situations my adrenaline brings the fight or flight response (along with a ton of anxiety) and I would often just shut down and flee or go along with whatever my wife said and take the blame as she blasts me. She would rule over me with her emotional outbursts and ability to out argue me.

This last year that has gone by has been one of the best years of my life. I am alot more fit.. I have more self esteem than I have ever had in my life. I get treated with more respect in the outside world than I ever have before, even more so than how I feel I am treated at home. I get TONS of unwanted attention from women at work now that I never had before also (or maybe recognized). It makes me sad when they treat me nicer and more respectful than my wife does. I do my best to deflect it, but when i get home to my wife and I dont get the same treatment as i do at work.Its frusterates me alot.

What scares me now is .. with my new self esteem and confidence my response is no longer to flee and cower away from my wife or anything for that matter .. but now to fight back. I have never acted much this way before in all the years I have been with my wife.

My mother (who was a single mom my dad was not in the picture) treated me just as my wife does in these situations and I would always back down regardless if i felt I was in the wrong or not. My siblings are 10 years younger than me and I was placed in a position of "father figure" and given alot of responsibility to my brothers.

When I was bullied in school .. i had the same response as i learnt to deal with my mom ... flee ... and cower away from the many skater groups that felt the need to harass me (always in large groups they did that in).. i brought that exact response into my relationship when i started dating my wife at 15. I WAS MrNiceGuy... to a fault.

I am scared of my new self confidence.. its as if my mind is saying .. you have been treated with such disregard your entire life its time to stand up for yourself, why are you tolerating it. I am not sure how to control the new "fight" response.. I think thats the scary part and something i need to get under control.


I will DEF look into markos thread .. thanks for the suggestion.


Yeah .. I noticed the same thing .. my wife said to me "Your not the guy I married! I don't even now you anymore!" and I believe that statement is true .. I am not the guy she married and I am having a hard time in the new me when it comes to these responses that are coming out in me.. which never really did before.


That's ok .. I need them from an objective perspective. I really appreciated them.

I asked my wife to come here and post. She says shes not sure but will think about it. I hope she does.


I agree .. I do have to step up. I was not always like this. This is all new really. I used to be able to walk away and in my mind she would win.. i would take the blame as she gave it to me and not see her make much effort to change herself. So i chalked it up to it being just me. I would apologize and pretty much beg for my wife's attention again and then fear if i ever didn't like what she did or does, I would get the same responses again from her and flee her outbursts or nagging and have it turned all into my fault again.. I would not often tell her when i thought she was being disrespectful or call her out on anything just to keep the peace.


Absolutely... I couldn't agree more.

Again .. I hope my wife comes here and explains things from her perspective. When I asked her to post here and she said she will think about it. She also said in a text to me when she replied "marriage builders is good advice, but hard work. I don't think either of us is capable of actually following through. Its easy for me to be professional to my co-workers when they piss me off.. but I can't imagine keeping it up all the time. Same for you. I just cant fathom you doing it either. Maybe for a time.."

I didn't reply..

Anyhow .. I must get some work done before my counsellor appointment today. Think he will allow me to record our convo on my smart phone for future reference? Or some kind of transcript? I want the new ... more self confident me to be able to properly handle my wife in her current state without putting blame and fueling the fire and have her gain her own introspection.

MNG

p.s. wow that was long .. >.< I will let you know later how counselling went.

Edit to add a detail and clean up some punctuation.