You are very lucky to have PB and ML helping you -- excellent advice all around.


I would just like to add to this:

Prioritizing your children's best interests -- not only do you not want them thinking this type of behavior is normal, but you want to give your children at least one healthy WHOLE parent. Very tough to do when you are worn down and living a nightmare with a serial cheater who won't change.

My children and niece (almost like a daughter) have repeatedly told me that I am a much better (happier, involved, focused) parent after I stopped having the constant fear of my xWH hurting me again hanging over my head...

I wonder if these folks telling you to "stick it out" know that this is WW's 4th affair (that you know of) and that she left the 3 yr old and 10 yr old home alone to pursue this latest affair? Somehow I doubt it.

The only people who did not think it was wise to D my serial cheating xWH after his 3rd affair were his family -- that's IT. Because they all had been exposed to.

I could file for divorce right now and introduce proof of adultery. It would help with alimony but everything else seems to be "mathematical".

I probably will be a better dad if this goes through. I spent all of my time with her because I tended to think if I focused on her, the kids would be better off. Though I did not do a terrific job of maintaining romantic love I did try to do so.

I want to assure you it was next to impossible to create a romantic relationship with someone whose lovebank is open to EVERYONE. You have competed with almost every guy who crossed her path for most of your marriage. You can't ever win in that environment.

A 4 time cheater is not someone who accidentally fell into it; but is someone who was actively looking for it.

And I would strongly urge you to file for divorce now so you do have an advantage. Ask your attorney to make her get out so you don't have to have her affair rubbed in our face.

Will she get out without you having to get a court order? Wll you ask her if she will get out and see what she says?

Makes sense. I feel like you can't always be "on". And yes, I can't compete with every new person out there.

What is my plan though. Am I divorcing? If so, I should probably file right now and submit evidence of adultery. She is very far from an un-fit mom (even though her leaving that day was terrible) so 50-50 custody will be the outcome. Assets will be split, and I can probably get less alimony.

Am I trying to Plan-A and kill the A to see what happens when its gone (this is what Steve has me doing)? My plan-A has been a complete failure so far. I can't find any need I can meet with this wall she has up other than playing with the kids and doing chores. She recognizes any attempts and kind of scoffs at them right now.

She also might find this thread. Can we move it to an un-expected forum so you guys can keep helping me?

I don't think she will leave. She very clearly says she does not want to abandon the kids, just the marriage.

That is what divorce IS. She wants the divorce, so I would ask her to move out so you don't have to force her out. You have NOTHING to lose by filing for divorce first, and everything to gain. You and I both know she is not going to change so this gives you the legal advantage.

And you can still give her an opportunity to make those necessary radical changes - AFTER you have filed for divorce and got her out.

P.s. a serial cheater is an unfit parent. How many men has she introduced your children to?

Go sit her down and tell her since she wants a divorce will she move out now? A WS will often say yes.

Can you elaborate on the advantage of filing first? I haven't learned of any specific advantage but I've only talked to a lawyer briefly about this stuff. This is opposite to what steve is recommending but I can't talk to him all that often.

I have talked to her about her moving. She said she doesn't want to abandon the kids. I think in her mind, with a divorce and child custody agreement, she would not be abandoning the kids whereas leaving now, she would be.

Please keep the help coming, I really appreciate it. I took several of the steps today. (haircut, ordered gps tracker, set up journalling, made 'plan A' plans with the kids) I am balancing your advice with Steve's advice but I appreciate all of it.

If YOU file, you control more of what happens. And if you decide to you can cancel the divorce (IE if she decides she wants to be still married to you and conforms to all your conditions).

The person who files first has a legal advantage. And in your case, you have cited some of those reasons. Secondly, I think your wife knows you are not serious about really having standards since you have never had standards before. It will take filing and setting some conditions to convince her.

For what possible reason would you even consider waiting to do it? Because you think she might change? Really?

I would work to persuade her to leave. Let her know there is no reason to wait since she wants the divorce.

Do you believe your wife will make a radical 180 degree change? If not, then you would be better off filing and moving forward. I don't believe she will change and nothing you do can effect such a change. Waiting to file is just prolonging the inevitable/

You have nothing to lose by filing, and everything to gain. But then, I have already explained this 3 times.


Then there is no reason for me to post to you if you aren't going to take my advice. I have a marriage and a full time career myself and as such, have very little time for this forum.

But she has. She leaves them alone so she can have sex with other men.
She's a selfish woman.
You've been on here for YEARS!
I came here in Nov 2011 and got divorced by middle of 2012.
I feel much better now that I haven't seen or spoken to my cheating wife since divorce.
I can't imagine how frustrating it must be to live like that for years.

It's your life. But life is short.
Do you want to be a martyr for your marriage?

Has Steve addressed what EPs your WW would need to implement to keep your M affair-proof into the future? Has he addressed the resentment that would have to be overcome on your side after so many affairs? Has he addressed the longstanding problem your WW has with not wanting to give up her SSL (secret second life)? These are things that you need to consider when deciding whether YOU would want to pursue a recovery.

After xWH's third affair, I was pretty sure I could never do any work towards recovery or fall in love with xWH again. But D/separation is still a hard decision and I wanted Dr Harley's take. Specifically I wanted to ask him -- and your WW is similar to my xWH in that they have learned about MB, a toolbox to improve the M, and they know how destructive and painful affairs are and yet they continue -- how will I ever trust that xWH "gets" it and is willing to give up this behavior?

Dr H basically acknowledged that I had a very hard decision to make. He said that we had to completely change xWH's lifestyle -- make an affair essentially impossible. Examples: no cell phone, no email and probably that he should find a job working at home with me.

Do you think you can get your WW to make such lifestyle changes? Frankly, it doesn't sound like she would be willing to make ANY changes. Even if she was, do you think you will be happy knowing that she needs to be watched and held accountable all of the time?

Keep in mind also that a serial cheater who has a long history of having a SSL will have a difficult time becoming radically honest -- this is probably a big part of the problem in your marriage aside from the affairs. It is very hard to develop intimacy with this type of person.

Specifically the behavior I am speaking about:
selfishness
laziness
independent behavior
dishonesty
poor boundaries

All serial cheaters have these issues IMO.

t/j to Susie: your posts are some of the best on this forum and I am always glad to see you have posted...

What a compliment coming from you, I scramble to read your posts whenever I log on TY!

She had a couple of EAs (as far as I know), then a very brief PA at which point we found MB and "recovered". At that time (6-7yrs ago?) I started to divorce her and she made radical changes, eliminated any "SSL", shared email accounts, phone records, checked in with each other, etc. We also rebuilt our marriage by meeting ENs and protecting each other. We were doing really well and the family has thrived. She improved herself a lot too by getting degrees and a job. We made it through a lot of tough things together.

What you say about Radical Honesty is very true. I realized at some point that I can learn how my wife really feels about some things by listening to my 10yr old daughter's comments rather than my wife herself. Of course this only works for things that she talks to her about. My wife always wants everyone else to be happy. She was making me very happy while sacrificing herself apparently. My efforts did lessen somewhat but I never stopped trying to meet her needs.

Ok I realize that is only part of the story. The other part is she willingly entered into this affair. I can probably pinpoint the time she first met him because I noticed a change in her many months ago. There wasn't anything big, just subtle changes in her attitude. But from then on it was downhill no matter what I tried to do. I even suggested we talk to someone a couple of times.

Your story is very similar to mine. It will probably turn out the same way. I'm coming to the same conclusion. I just thought we were doing so well.