nonononoooo, she said it was too hard to schedule UA time. My point is that it is harder to have a bad marriage. There is nothing harder!

Being your BH has still has strong trust issues I can not understand why you have not had paternity DNA tests done.

But what you essentially said is that this issue of trust came up because of your trip -- he expresses concerns, doesn't feel safe but you feel you have earned the trust, he needs to let go essentially of his mistrust.


Did you read the article I linked? Dr Harley says the feelings of trust change in response to your behavior. Your trip is making him feel unsafe and that's what he is trying to tell you. It doesn't matter if you have been a model FWW for the past four years or not.



I don't think you understand POJA. To me, it sounds like you got your husband's reluctant agreement vs enthusiastic. Regardless, the moment he expressed reservation, using POJA, you would cancel the trip -- not argue with him about his need to trust you.

Sorry if I am beating a dead horse -- but I don't see recognition that you are "getting" it in your posts.

This has almost nothing to do with a prior affair. It's a case of a failure to learn to negotiate. You are using strategies that prevent negotiation by making the negotiation unsafe.


To psycho-analyze your spouse like this is abusive and disrespectful. You are settings yourself up as the dispenser of wisdom to your husband when you talk like this, like a parent talking to a child.

You will never be able to negotiate a win-win situation if you fill the negotiation discussions with disrespectful judgments.


This is more disrespect and psychoanalyzing.

Basically when we want something and our spouse does not agree, we are tempted to escalate along an abusive continuum that Dr. Harley has described in three stages: first, when our requests aren't met, we tend to make demands. If demands do not get what we want, we escalate to the next stage: disrespectful judgments. In disrespectful judgments, we tell our spouse why we believe they SHOULD grant our request. That's where you are at. You are starting with the belief that your husband SHOULD grant your request, that the right answer is for him to trust you and let you go, and you expressing things like this is preventing negotiation.

If DJs don't get our way, we are tempted to escalate even further: to angry outbursts.

All of these three forms of abuse (selfish demands, disrespectful judgments, angry outbursts) constitute fights.


You need to learn about the policy of joint agreement and the four guidelines to successful negotiation. Dr. Harley has a very workable procedure here to bring about win-win solutions in your marriage.

But no amount of "work" done on either of your parts will make it a good idea to pick a win-LOSE solution. If one of you is losing (isn't enthusiastic) over an idea, drop that idea and look for alternatives. Your husband isn't enthusiastic, so look for an alternative together.

Here.

Four Guidelines for Successful Negotiation

We've agreed to put more focus on UA and I'm going to ask him to spend time on ENs with me this week.

I know some of you think differently, but I don't think you have to keep to the program like a priest to a bible to have a successful, affair-proof marriage. I think taking the vital aspects and working them into your life is almost better than living strictly by the rules set out by Dr. Harley. He has a job where he has to travel. For a while he had no job and I assure you, the current situation is far better for our marriage than the previous!

I've come here for further insight into our trouble areas and gratefully, I've received it.

ML - I thank you for the insight of a "crippled version of the pre-A marriage." Our marriage was crippled then; it is, in fact, in much better shape now than then, but I want to ensure it continues improving and never gets back to anywhere near where it was. We manage to have some wonderful time together after the kids are in bed, but as I mentioned previously, we've moved to a new country not so long ago and do not yet have a babysitter we trust (we really don't know anyone yet), along with the fact that $$$ is very tight. As this changes, babysitters will be a priority expense, believe me!

Life doesn't always go by the book, Harley's or anyone else's. When he does travel, we speak or Skype every night. He knows my plans and schedule. He trusts me 'for the most part' but I can see, thanks to coming back here, the areas where we need to tighten up the ship.

I value my marriage far more now than I ever have before. I love my husband now more than I ever have before. I'm not sure how it goes for WHs, but for most WWs (for me, at least) self-esteem is a huge factor in the breakdown of a marriage and the choice of an affair. I now trust myself never to allow for the possibility of cheating again. I'm keeping my eyes open to the red flags within myself and within our marriage. I no longer withhold the things that upset me nor do I allow resentment to build - we talk. I talk even if he thinks it is a "little thing."

I value my husband, my family and last but not least, myself enough now to cradle and protect my relationship with my husband.

I thank all of you so much for your honesty. You do a great service on these boards.

Off now to spend valuable UA as a family. Love and blessings to you all.

And the reason we think differently is because we know that is not true. This is why your husband knows he can't trust you. We are in fully recovered marriages BECAUSE we followed the rules to the letter. People who cut corners end up with a shaky marriages and end up back up in repeat affairs. That is because the marriage is more vulnerable after the affair than before. You don't GET this.


You have no idea what you are talking about, though. You have no idea how to save a marriage, have no experience at it and are just guessing. Guessing against someone who has long successful professional experience with a proven track record. Traveling jobs are a disaster to marriages, even good marriages. And there are other jobs he can get.

If you put the marriage AFTER the job, your marriage will suffer. A job should complement the marriage, not harm it. A traveling job is harmful to even a GREAT marriage, so don't tell us it doesn't matter.


No, he doesn't trust you. As he shouldn't. You said this in your first post. You will learn the hard way that half measures will avail you nothing. You are setting yourself up for failure. It is too much "trust" that leads to affairs. Saying he trusts you is about like saying he "trusts" you to go drunk driving. Spending the nights apart is a risk to your marriage because it causes emotional detachment. He shouldn't trust you if you spend the nights aparts.

here

And you don't have to believe this, that is fine. It is your marriage to wreck. But I have been on this board for 12 years and have seen untold #s of people who came back with 2nd or 3rd affairs after cutting corners. Some people have to learn everything the hard way. We have one such man on SAA now who cut corners after his wife's affair from 2007. She is in another affair. But marriages that don't recover the first time are more vulnerable AFTER than before. If your husband travels and you don't get in 15+ of UA time, I assure you that your marriage is not recovered. It's your choice and your life.

ML - Yes, you've been on this board a very long time and have helped many, including me. You're clearly passionate about Harley's work because you've seen the results.

I'm unsure as why it seems I've set you off and to me you've come across in this last post as somewhat angry and judgmental. I'm not interested in arguing about Dr. Harley's work. I think he's brilliant and obviously knows what he's doing.

But everyone is allowed their own opinion. A religious person can disagree with some points in the bible and still be a good Catholic. I understand your allegiance to the plan. It works, obviously. But so does my marriage. It's not shaky. We're 100% committed to making it great. Yes, I still have work to do to regain my husband's complete trust - or as close as we can get to that. However, the difference is that I completely trust myself.

You said: "Spending the nights apart is a risk to your marriage because it causes emotional detachment. He shouldn't trust you if you spend the nights apart."

If it is emotional detachment that is the concern, then we don't have that concern. To stay connected when he's away for a night or two we talk. We always connect. Our emotional connection is a priority for us. I said it is a challenge to hit those 15 hours, but we meet that 95% of the time.

The burden of trust will always be on me. My husband will always live with the scar of my terrible choices. I'll assure he never suffers like that again and our marriage and family are #1 to both of us. That said, the WS doesn't deserve to be punished for the rest of their life. Not everyone is a repeat offender. Forgiveness (not acceptance) from the has to happen for "The plan" to work. Self-forgiveness is just as vital for the marriage to recover. Love, as an action, is the key to any successful relationship - not a list of rigid rules.

You have your recovered marriage and whether you believe it or not, we're well on our way to one. Our belief in our marriage is the one belief that matters.

I came here to shore up any areas that needed it, I got the guidance I needed and I'm grateful. I'll apply it. We will.

Thank you, everyone.

SusieQ - you're right about the POJA. I'm paying attention now. I've told him (with love and free of resentment) I will only confirm my certification when we can have a family member come and stay with the kids so that he can come with me.

Markos - ouch and thank you. I didn't even consider my psychoanalysis as a DJ. I think I was getting into a selfish space again and I'm going to go study POJA and the Four Guidelines provided (thank you for the link, BrainHurts).

MelodyLane - I apologize. I've been reading through many other posts this morning. It's easier to appreciate your "in your face" approach when it's someone else's story. I'll be rereading your sage words. I'm still certain we won't live the principles 100%, due to current circumstance, but with the intent to integrate more completely as time and especially finances allow.

Thanks again to everyone. I plan to make MB a regular part of my life again to insure that I stay on track and very clear of fog and to continue building a healthy marriage.

It is not "belief" that saves marriages, though. It is a very narrow path of set behaviors. Behaviors that are not existent in your marriage. It is not a lack of trust that ruins marriages, but a lack of boundaries. Your marriage is not recovered. But that is ok, it is your marriage and you don't have to follow any of these concepts and you don't have to recover your marriage. As long as you are prepared to live with the consequences. I wish you the best...

A narrow set of behaviors is in place, though - For some reason I'm frustrated that you are not seeing that. You're like the respected professor that I (for some odd reason) desire the approval of. We have UA (averaging 15h) we have EPs in place, we're going to review our ENs tonight.

No, I don't live it like a bible, but the behaviors have been in place for several years and the only area we're remiss in, which I realize is a biggie, is his travel. When we can, we'll do all our traveling together. As it is, we work hard at keeping emotionally connected.

You don't have to convince me at all. What you have described here is not a recovered marriage. I am just telling you that a marriage where one has a traveling job, doesn't spend 15+ hours of UA time together, still practice lovebusters and don't use the POJA is not recovered. You can tell yourself you ARE, but I can see you aren't. And so can the others here who are in recovered marriages.

We can help you get there if you want, but no one here is going to help you pretend.

You are alot like me in that you tend to cut corners and take what you think is the best from things. You can't get away with that with this program because all the fluff has already been cut out. This program doesn't work unless you follow all of the steps perfectly. In other words, you don't recover unless you follow all the steps.

And the traveling job is more than a biggie. It is a deal breaker. In 2007, when my H and I were in a truly recovered marriage, we were both transferred to a town 4 hours away. I was asked to go down before him so I would drive down on Monday and come back on Friday.

It was so hard on our marriage that we ended it in 3 weeks and he started coming with me during the week. All of a sudden we experienced emotional detachment [sorry, but that cannot be compensated for via the internet or phone] and then when we did get back together, we would fight for 2 days because of the clash of 2 independent lifestyles.

THAT is what happens when one spouse travels without the other. You can't sustain a marriage when one travels.

Here is an excellent thread and radio clips on traveling jobs.

Traveling Jobs

ML jr, I need a favor. The window to listen to this passed before I could hear it. Would you please post a link for me?
Thank you.


"I wanted you to know that we answered your email question of February 4 on today�s Marriage Builders Radio Show, Tuesday, February 5.

You can listen to the show by going to www.marriagebuilders and clicking on the tab Listen Now on the homepage. This show will be replayed until noon, Central Time, Wednesday, February 6."

Those links work just fine. Are you sure you clicked on the link?

But you're also remiss in:
Not practicing the policy of joint agreement
Disrespectful judgments
Not practicing the policy of undivided attention (?)
Possibly more?

TheRoad

Is this your question? The one about getting rid of triggers?

Radio Clip About Getting Rid of Triggers

MrsV, you are now talking like your marriage is fully recovered. Like you have it all figured out.

Being 'in recovery' and still learning the ropes of POJA, etc. is fine, as long as you continue to work toward learning and improving your marriage. But you have to be willing to learn, identify the holes and work toward plugging them.

MelodyLane is identifying holes and you are saying that you can function just as well WITH these holes, that you can have just as strong a recovery with them. I am assuming her experience on these boards tells her otherwise.

Cutting corners creates just that, holes to the affair proof armor that you are attempting to put up around your marriage. The reality is that a marriage with these cut corners is NOT as affair proof and strong as a marriage that has a fully intact affair armor without the holes. If you are saying that you realize that and are comfortable with that, well you are right, that is your choice.

IOW, a marriage with a traveling job provides MUCH more opportunity for emotional detachment and SSL behavior/affairs, than one with no travel in which the spouses come home to each other every day. That is just common sense. If you are saying that you are willing to take that higher level of risk to your marriage so your H can continue his traveling job, then that is your choice.

But there IS potential for another woman to step through that hole in the boundary, while your H is out having a drink by himself while traveling. This would NOT be an option if he was at home, having a drink with you on the couch.

Any time you cut corners and put a chink in the armor around your marriage, such as through traveling jobs (HUGE chink, and I speak from personal experience), or OS friendships or whatever, you could pay the price of another A.

BTW, you talk about the trust for YOU as the FWS, but there should also be concern for HIM, he is just as likely to have an RA as you are to have a 2nd one under these conditions (maybe even more so).

I could have written this a decade ago. My H traveled for work. We talked on the phone or facetime nightly. He said goodnight to the kids. We knew where each other were every moment we were away.

But at night when he went to the bar and started drinking, and ended up in another woman's hotel room for the night, none of that made a damn bit of difference.

And that, may I add, has nothing to do with trust. It has everything to do with OPPORTUNITY. Where there is no opportunity, there is no affair.