First of all, I want to say that I have done some work on my marriage since the last time on here, and I have some good things to report. However, I have, as you may know or will see, a problem with an overbearing and highly-critical mother-in-law. Yesterday was my birthday, and she gave me a product to improve my hair and a picture of herself. She explained, in front of my H and kids, the hair product gift as that she had given it to her daughter (who also has fine hair) for Christmas, and that her daughter liked it, etc.

I was hurt, by her gift, and it was, unfortunately, obvious to her, my H, and my two teenagers. : /

Won't go into details, but she is constantly criticizing me, this is not just one instance...

I'm sorry to obsess about her on this marriage forum, but the relationship between her and I is causing severe damage, and even, very much, negatively impacting my marriage.

I always tell my H when she hurts my feelings. My H always covers for her, saying that she doesn't mean the things she says in the way I take them, etc. So I feel double-hurt - hurt by her, then blamed for feeling hurt when I shouldn't. Other times, even worse, my H will say something sarcastic like, "Oh, you want to talk about my mom again..."

I could really use some objective advice. Would you be insulted if your MIL gave you an unsolicited self-improvement gift and a picture of herself to you for your b-day? Please be honest and let me know if I am really the problem. Maybe I need to go to counseling for just myself/get on some meds, etc... And, if I should say something, please advise if the letter at the end of this post is appropriate.

I really am sorry to keep obsessing about her; I can't seem to stop and, today, am even feeling like moving very far away from her since we live in the same small town and she is a widow. I am very emotional today, and already tore her picture to shreds... Oops, a little mental right now. : /

Thanks for your help and putting up with me MBrs!

This is the letter, if you think I should send:

I just wanted to apologize, as you may have noticed I was a little insulted by your b-day gift and ask that you forgive me and not mention this to anyone else. It�s just that I feel that gifts to improve someone should only be given if you are really close with that person and mention a particular product, and someone expresses interest in that product. I would say the same is true for XXX, even though she is your daughter. It�s none of my business, but I don�t know if, when you gave the product to XXX, if she had said she wanted to try it/or if she asked for it and you bought it for her. That is, different, though, and how I would think she would like to be treated since her hair is beautiful as-is.

As you know, I am sensitive with my feelers. I am sorry that I am easily hurt. I will try to improve myself and my self esteem, because I can only change myself/not others.

Thanks for understanding, and please just keep this between us.

CP - absolutely DO NOT send that letter. It mentions her daughter's feelings, which you should not be guessing about nor speaking on behalf of someone else who did not expressly ask you to do so. Also, you should not suggest that you are part of the problem and that you need to fix yourself.

Absolutely not.

You should stop seeing your critical MIL, or see her only under the very limited conditions that you decide you can cope with, until and unless she stops doing this. If you stop seeing her altogether she will no doubt ask why, and you can convey the message about her behaviour, making it clear that you will only see her again if she agrees to stop it.

I'll be back in a moment with a post from Dr H on this.

This was Dr Harley's response to a post on his private forum. The difference between this case (and Dr Harley's own case) and yours is that your H does not seem to be sympathetic to your reactions, nor even, perhaps, to believe that his mother is doing anything to be upset about. Even if he did not feel offended on your behalf, a loving husband would speak to his mother and ask her to stop the behaviour. If she didn't stop, he would jointly decide, with you, that the family would not visit her until and unless she changed her ways.

The gross lack of care from your H to you worries me, and I suspect that this is an even bigger issue for you than his mother's behaviour. A very serious, unhappy message is being sent when one spouse laughs at or is scornful about the other spouse's unhappiness. I don't think you can fix this issue in isolation, and certainly MB is not about finding other people's "right answer" to specific issues in your marriage. MB is about creating a loving, romantic marriage of extraordinary care in which you would find solutions to problems with each other's feelings in uppermost, so that even if your H wanted to see his mother and just wished the whole issue could go away, he would be even more anxious to support and care for you, above his care for all others.

It seems to me that you have much work to do on your marriage (as have most of us here - this is not a put-down).

SugarCane,

Thank you for the quick response and good advice. I do think I should stop seeing her except under very limited conditions.

As far as my letter, though, I wonder if I could get others' opinions on that. The reason is that my MIL knows that I was insulted by her gift - it was obvious with the crying, etc. : / The reason why I want to bring up her daughter is that she (my MIL) tends to twist things, and my MIL may say something to my SIL, behind my back/about me, like "I don't know why she was so insulted. You like it... She must think she doesn't need it, etc." I just didn't want to give her (my MIL) any ammo because she may use this to hurt her daughter and my relationship, too, she is that kind of person. : /

SC - Unfortunately, I think you are right on track with this. I don't know what I should do about this. : / I've tried marriage counseling, and my H is not willing to do that either. We have been married for 23 years, and I don't see a way to fix this.
____________________________________________________________
"The gross lack of care from your H to you worries me, and I suspect that this is an even bigger issue for you than his mother's behaviour. A very serious, unhappy message is being sent when one spouse laughs at or is scornful about the other spouse's unhappiness. I don't think you can fix this issue in isolation, and certainly MB is not about finding other people's "right answer" to specific issues in your marriage. MB is about creating a loving, romantic marriage of extraordinary care in which you would find solutions to problems with each other's feelings in uppermost, so that even if your H wanted to see his mother and just wished the whole issue could go away, he would be even more anxious to support and care for you, above his care for all others.

It seems to me that you have much work to do on your marriage (as have most of us here - this is not a put-down)."

The letter gives her more ammo, makes you sound overly sensitive, insecure and will leave you open to more attacks cause it exposes your weakness ( wanting her approval)It would be a very bad move to send it.

I agree that the issue is your husbands reaction, not your mil hurtful ways. The issue is also your refusal to put up boundaries with her so that she can't hurt you anymore. Like not seeing her/talking to her/accepting gifts from her. You can choose to be done with the toxic relationship. You are obsessing about whose right and running around in circles. Crazy-making!! It's entirely in your control to stop the madness.

If your a Christian repeat after me " I can't , God can" and get off the crazy train

First of all, I want to say that I have done some work on my marriage since the last time on here, and I have some good things to report. However, I have, as you may know or will see, a problem with an overbearing and highly-critical mother-in-law. Yesterday was my birthday, and she gave me a product to improve my hair and a picture of herself. She explained, in front of my H and kids, the hair product gift as that she had given it to her daughter (who also has fine hair) for Christmas, and that her daughter liked it, etc.

REALLY??????????????? You are going to write her a nasty letter over a hair care product???? REALLY... Seriously, look at this objectively.. You are SO incredibly sensitive. There is no way i have EVER wasted mental energy on a bad gift... Honestly, so you have a gift you don't like..so what???

If I were your husband I would be SO tired of the drama. Now you may have a right to be upset over major things but if you are complaining about something like this???? I just don't get it... And your letter sounds like something out of junior high!!! Toughen up!!!

Totally agree. a) Flaming Nastygram Emails are a TERRIBLE way to communicate. You are typing stuff you would never say to her face, because you know it is angry and hurtful. YOU would feel better venting, but it would only further damage the relationship. They stick around forever. Dear MIL will ruminate over this email for years!
b) The non-gifting idea is good. But you should say it politely to her directly. This is not your DH fault. You should either accept the gift and re-gift it, donate it, return it for cash, ebay it, or throw it away. Simply say, "I love my shampoo/dye/extension glue/chaffing dish and i'm very loyal to things I like. (squeeze husband appropriately here.)
c) Give it back to her, tell her if she is using it, it looks great on her.
d) give er suggestions, ie something you DO like. She feels compelled to gift to you, so tell her you really like that Salad shooter/ipad/gold chain you saw in BHG or Restoration hardware. Or go shopping with her, show her what you like. Try building up some points in HER love bank, your way. It gives you more control of the relationship, without the scorched-earth policy. And DH will LOVE that. Big LB points here!
e) RELAX!!!! My mother was annoued by her MIL up till the day MIL died, and then some. DM is very easy going, MIL (my dear grandmother ) was anal clean freak. They did annoying behaviors their whole life. A huge waste of energy, and toxic stressful family times. So she is not perfect, so gently kid her about it. Gently let DH see the relationship dynamics he is missing because its HIS MOM. I'm assuming she is not a druggie and has good intentions... bless her heart...

Pretty sure in a healthy relationship a hair care product wouldn't evoke such extreme feelings but years upon years and layers upon layers of unspoken/ unresolved hurt will make a mountain out of a mole-hill.

This poster keeps going around and around the merry-go-round. Time for some action. Unless the purpose of her multiple postings are only to vent and get validation for feelings. In that case she will be stuck in this problem forever.

Just wanted to add that YES he should protect you and I'm sorry, but I don't remember the other issues you had. ( That is why it is helpful if you keep it on one thread.) But it seems to me that this was NOT a matter of protection. She made a big enough deal that she hated the gift in front of her teenage daughters so they could tell. Is that how you would want them to react if your mom gave them an innapropriate gift???? My mom has given TONS of innapropriate gifts.... Now we just donate to charity in each others names.

Your husband does need to hear you and protect you if she is doing things like criticizing you in front of the children.. But she was trying to be nice and it seems like you gave her no credit. If I were the husband, that would be a huge love buster for me. How hard would it be to say, "Thank you for thinking of me." and then continue on to something else. You don't have to lie and say you love it... But she did make an effort!!!!!!!!

That said, your husband does need to protect you. But it would be helpful if he could concentrate on the important issues and not the unimportant ones..

I hope that makes sense... It is just your behavior would have hurt me and I would have talked about buying something like that for my daughter because that is what gave me the idea.. Most ladies like bath/personal care items. I know that my mil has gotten me bath soaps, which haven't really been my favorite scent..but I apreciated the sentiment behind it.

Oh my goodness, went back and found her posts. Infidelity is at the root of this.. In laws are the least of her problems and the affair is the elephant in the room. I will repost optimism's advice from an earlier thread:

CP,
If you don't have a good understanding of MB principles after having experienced infidelity, then I have very grave concerns. Most likely you never REALLY recovered from the adultery. You think you did, but you did not. I am a prime living, divorced, example of that.

Dr. Harley has found ONE single effective path to recovery from infidelity. The ideas must be implemented accurately or a repeat affair always looms and is inevitable. Mostly because you eventually fall back into the same patterns that made the affair possible. People simply don't understand what protections have to be put in place to guard against further infidelity.

In fact you need to read "Surviving an Affair." Priority.

I'm glad you came back and are now going to give more effort to learning the basic concepts and implementing the strategies here. Read, read, read.

You will find that once you and your husband both have mastery over the ways to conduct a MB marriage, problems like your MIL can be solved together in a caring and respectful, cooperative way.

It takes time to "get it" but your M will be better than ever.

Once you learn the concepts and start having a better understanding of MB principles, you can ditch the "marriage" counselor. In fact you should probably do so now. They tend to do more harm than good, especially if there is a history of infidelity. Most therapists know about as much about infidelity as they know about how to construct a laser-guided missile.
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I am concerned about this advice. It sounds nothing like the advice Dr H gave a poster in the private forum, after she was upset about her in-laws' behaviour. This site is MB, after all, and "toughen up!!!" does not sound like any advice I have ever heard Dr H give where there is a complaint.

I am taking this poster at face value and believing what she said about her MIL being overbearing and highly critical. I am accepting what this poster says, that her MIL is unpleasant to her. I have no reasons not to believe this, and if we start from believing what she says then there is no justification for telling her she is "SO incredibly sensitive".

We can take any present in isolation and say it is a present, and therefore well-intentioned, but I'm going to accept that this poster recognised that the present was intended to be yet another criticism of her. I know that it is perfectly possible to take subtle digs at someone over a period of time, and that a gesture that would be kind in some circumstances is NOT kind in others.

If this poster has talked to her H about how his mother treats her and he has sneered at her, then he is showing serious lack of care and concern over her feelings. I am surprised that you know you would be "SO tired of the drama", when you haven't heard much about the drama but you have heard that this MIl is "overbearing and highly critical".

We have had many in-law issues on this 101 board over the years and thank goodness they were never told "so what"?

There is an unhappy marriage at the root of this problem - indeed one that never recovered from an affair - and we should be helping the couple to deal with that - not telling the poster to get over herself. Thank goodness nobody spoke to you like that when you came here complaining about your loneliness with your very caring, giving, life-saving, family-orientated, missionary husband.

PS.., My DW returns almost every gift I ever gave her. This is upsetting to me, like why waste the effort, but she says "dont be upset, I'd rather return it and get the purse/shoes/watch she likes. Or she'll just buy something and thank me for the gift. :-/ Makes me feel kind of useless, and unable to make deposits.

I wish they had told me I was being selfish. I did need to get over myself. Feel free to delete mods. Thanks.

And what would have been your response if you had received advice like that when you were looking for a happy marriage?

Is that what you're doing now - sacrificing and "getting over yourself"? Is that making you happy? Is that curing your chronic loneliness? Is that making your marriage romantic?

Is the above what you'd recommend to another poster in your shoes who is miserable and lonely within her marriage, or would you recommend creating a loving, intimate marriage by spending a large amount of UA time with her H every week?

Thank you, Sugar Cane, and others, for posting. I have to say I was coming here for advice, and I think, although I have so much more i need to share to work on my marriage, that Sugar Cane has hit the nail on the head with everything. Thank you for that, SC, as I really feel heard with you.

My MIL is constantly criticizing me - to my face, behind my back (even at times when my kids could hear). She criticizes her other in-laws, too, to me, and I have stopped listening/change the subject every time... I truly believe that she sets out to hurt me because she gets in at least one or two digs every time I see her. This most recent situation is making a mountain out of a molehill, and for that I'm sorry. Just human, and, yes, it is more the result of years and years of not standing up for myself to her constant criticism is why I'm such a mess now.

I think why I keep going back to this peripheral issue is that, since my family moved back to our small hometown over two years ago and live close to my MIL, I have gotten to know her much better. I feel deep hatred toward her, and I am mostly a loving, easy-going person. This toxicity is seeping into my marriage, because I have not constructed good boundaries with my MIL. My H has not helped, as there are several instances when he and she have made plans for all of us that I had no part in... When I've told my H about this, he has not validated my feelings and, at times, has been rude and dismissive. In fact, he criticizes my SIL because she is strong in terms of verbalizing her plans with my brother-in-law, so my H jokes about my brother-in-law having to check with "the warden" whenever we want to do something with them... So when I go to tell my H that he needs to check with me on things, I have that additional stigma of being insulted that my H did not come to me first, plus I know how my H feels about having to check with one's wife on things...

As I write this, that deep hatred is also directed at my H, the father of my two wonderful kids and my husband of 23 years, but I really feel deep hatred toward him, too.

My H does not usually stand up for me, either. But, to be fair, I haven't asked him to very often. He does get tired of the drama, probably, so that was fair, but also one-sided as you are not accounting for what i put up with my H and MIL as well.

I know that this whole thing is a result of a troubled marriage and not a horrible (she is horrible, btw) MIL... So I will try to focus on my marriage in my next post, when I have composed a better message to tell our full story, but thank you for your feedback so far. I'll try not to take offense and become defensive on here, because that is what I've done before, because I need to get off the "crazy train" and get some help. : /

Hi Pink!

Sorry for the not so happy birthday!

I had in-law problems for years, so awful I could write a book about the crazy nonsense that went on. I fought against it for years, put up boundary after boundary, even went NC with the offending in-law. The intrusion and trouble making continued, no matter what I tried.

My H finally stood up and magically put a stop to it after YEARS of crap. It took maybe five sentences from him. This was maybe 6 or 7 years ago, and no more issues period.

Your H is the key here. We were not using MB at the time. The proper use of POJA would end these MIL issues. How much UA time are you guys getting?

I suggest not sending this email. Bad plan, it won't work. Focus on the marriage.

Thank you, TMA! I have a response for you, below, but wanted to clarify a couple of things from my meltdown yesterday, first.

For the record, anyone who hasn't given up on me yet, my meltdown yesterday was not because of a bad or thoughtless gift. i am not selfish like that... It was really about hurt feelings, on my part, because my MIL has criticized my hair and then, for my birthday, gave me something to improve my hair, so it felt like additional criticism... Anyway, just wanted to clarify that.

Thank God for this discussion board and all of your advice not to send the letter, as I would have regretted that, duh! I was just in a very bad place because my feelings were hurt, and have spent years and years not standing up for myself. Thank you for not giving me bad advice, any of you, even though I asked for a second opinion.

Tisme - Wow, I am glad to know that you were able to get your H on board to resolve the nonsense and it worked! That is encouraging, because I've been so down about it that I have not even felt there was a way out besides just divorce and moving as far away as possible.

Although I've been working on my marriage and trying to open up to my H, we have not done the POJA yet. I am having trouble approaching him with it because of feeling that he may dismiss the ideas, think it's all my issue, reject wanting to work on our marriage, etc. I haven't gotten over the fear of that. And, since I have been feeling this deep hatred toward him, I have been on and off board in terms of ... do i really want to do this or just call it quits? it's really sad that after 23 years of marriage i feel this way, and it changes... I also have days where i love him and would do it all again, then days where i'm like why did i marry this narcissistic, selfish person??? Then days where I think, man, i am the narcissistic, selfish person, and maybe it's all me...

Thanks for putting up with me, MBrs.

Any ideas of how to get on board with MB, as well as how to approach my H/getting over the fear of him rejecting me and my ideas are welcome. Has anyone felt like me, at the beginning of MB, of days where you wanted to work on things, and then the next day call it quits, love your husband one day, hate him the next (month) or is that just a problem with my moods?

Pink,

I would start with the 15 hrs. (min. 20 would be better) UA time EVERY SINGLE WEEK. Sit down with your H and actually plan and schedule the dates. Just the two of you, and remember TV and going to see movies do not count towards UA time. This will make a HUGE difference in the marriage and your feelings towards him.

Have you guys done the ENQ? I would copy and fill out ASAP if not.

Work on eliminating all love busters, and DJ's...you could buy the Lovebuster's book if you don't have already. Focus on cleaning up your side of the street.

Have an honest (calm no AO's, or DJ's) conversation with your H. Tell him you want to work on your marriage. Does he know about MB?

What are your H's complaints about the M? Complaints can be hard to hear, and easy to dismiss, but addressing them is an opportunity to improve your M.

You need to build up the LB$, your balance is very low (or negative) currently, that's why you feel hatred towards him at times.

The UA time is what has made the biggest difference in my M. in the shortest time. Think back to when you were dating and IN LOVE, how much time were you spending together then? What did you guys do together?

As for MIL issues, POJA. I heard Dr. Harley say on MB radio to start practicing the POJA with smaller issues at first, I wouldn't jump right in with that, until you have the process down. Remember UA time needs to be enjoyable, so not the time for MIL issues to be discussed!

Thanks Tismeagain. I will start where you have described. I'm finally starting with the beginning of telling my story, not just focusing on all of the small fires. Please advise if I should start a new thread for the info below, or if it helps to keep in one place. This is, in a nutshell, the summary of the issues in our marriage, and also some more info on why i feel hatred to my H and wonder if I should even try to fix this or throw it all away. He is also not always the H I married... But I really don't, when I think things through and rationally, want to throw in the towel, just yet.

My Story
Okay, I am finally ready to deal with the real issues in my very troubled marriage, and I thank you MBrs for your advice, so far, and patience with me as I try to extinguish small fires while my house is burning down�

Please let me know if I should move this to a new thread.

I think the real, basic and underlying issues in my marriage stem from addiction. I am addicted to approval from others, and my H is addicted to alcohol.

I initially faced my addiction many years ago, when an EA I�d been having turned slightly physical. I had wanted this person to love me and accept me for who I was, and did not realize the dangers or reality, then, of having an emotional affair with someone. I had tried to get out of my troubled marriage while �shopping� for a new one. Fortunately, though I felt it unfortunate at the time, this OM did not want another marriage. He was just preying on my emotions and need for approval to get me to sleep with him. Fortunately, I realized this, and turned away from him and to Christ instead. Out of the ashes of pain and rejection, I became a new creation, born again, and, while I still feel a need for approval from anyone that walks and breathes, I have never had an EA or any type of physical encounter outside of marriage since. I am not saying that I would never falter again, but I am extremely cautious because of the severe pain I inflicted on my H, my family and myself. I never told anyone, except for God, about the EAs or PA, and wrestle with the thought of doing so because I think it may cause more harm than good at this point. Still, even without the confession, my H and kids suffered, severely, from my stupidity and selfishness even though they didn�t know exactly what was going on with me at the time.

Though I changed my ways, and my heart has forever been changed after becoming a Christian, my marriage is a mess. I still feel the lack of approval from my H, and others in his family. I still feel alone, although I am not trying to fill the void in having EAs, either in person or over the internet.

My H is the type that does not fix anything until it is completely broken. He also does not get help or read the instruction manual, including for our marriage. He has a personality that, whenever something does go wrong, he is a victim and it is other people's fault. My MIL is the same, which is why I (being more the one to take the responsibility)stupidly allow myself to be saddled with the blame until I finally crack, like i almost did the other day. I, not meaning to, accommodate (? not really the word I am looking for) our broken marriage because I blame myself for most everything, until I have had too much.

In addition, my H, as mentioned before, has become either an alcoholic or, at the very least, a borderline alcoholic. The below is a prayer request I submitted, recently, and it pretty much sums up my feelings. Things have become worse, in the last couple of years, to the point that I don�t know if I am capable of loving my H again. To be honest, some days I do feel true love toward him and think that, possibly, our marriage can be healed. Other days, I pray to God that my H would either be healed of his addiction or just die so that my kids and I can heal.

Prayer Request
Please pray for my husband of 23 years, XXX. I am not certain he is born again, but he does believe in Christ and believes he is Christian. He is a borderline alcoholic and his substance abuse issues have been deeply detrimental to our marriage, the example for our children and our family. I have talked to him about this, often, but he is not willing to change or ready to hear despite how it hurts me and the kids. We have had numerous fights over this issue, and recently he has shown physical anger - kicking, throwing and breaking things, yelling and verbal abuse. It breaks my heart that it has come to the point that I no longer feel love toward him and really want out of my marriage. I often pray that God will remove him from our lives or for healing. Please help, and I thank you for your prayers. May God bless you.

Well, that is the ugly story, in a nutshell. Any and all help is greatly appreciated.