My marriage ran into problems with the birth of two children exactly 12 months apart whilst I was the sole breadwinner. He refused to have anything to do with the children except to fight with our baby sitters. I was under impossible amounts of stress barely able to cope from one day to the next. My (poor) coping mechanism was to withdraw; the SF went and the DJs started

I now see that my behaviour was the worst thing I could have done. Things dragged on like that for years and I always longed for them to change but changing a relationship dynamic without a catalyst is really hard.

Plan B would have definitely worked as it would have shaken me up enough to consider whether I wanted the relationship to survive. A really good plan A would have worked too but my XH would have had a tough time making love bank deposits as by then the air was filled with love busters so on balance I think I think that plan B would have been pretty much the only choice.

Sadly for our marriage he chose plan adultery instead.

Only a third? lol
Interesting article, although I have not read it, NYC. I was wondering if it includes just married couples or people living together? And how that might impact the survey.

I think the MB program focuses on meeting ENs, eliminating LB's, and using the policy of joint agreement (although I think you were speaking about a more specific issue, so I'm not contradicting you at all).

Interesting idea about Plan B - echoed by LivingWell in the next post. I think LW describes my failed marriage also -- including me resorting to Plan Adultery somewhat early on. It's amazing what we think are solutions when left to our own devices and uneducated in methods proposed here. I had also often considered Plan D (prior to MB) due to the lack of intimacy/sex. But I kept coming back to "you can't divorce someone for lack of sex." Trying to justify that to friends and family just seemed ridiculous (and embarassing) at the time (again, prior to MB/Dr. Harley). Especially when you have your "life-partner" practically dictating to you what you need and don't need ("virtually no married couples have sex regularly" she would say, then site some study she saw on Oprah).

Dr. Harley makes it clear: the marital contract is to meet each other's emotional needs. When they are not met, it's a breech of contract and needs to be addressed directly.

Came up in a discussion with NatureGirl this morning about me meeting her needs for IC. "you promised me that when we got married" she said. I'm fortunate to be married to someone who is understanding the principles; there's little room for misunderstanding or resentment -- you just go back to the facts.

opt

What is IC Opt?

Intimate Conversation.

Congrats to you two!

I think we are a mess. DW says she is 'happy' and our marriage is 'better than most' but cant seem to grasp SF and Affection. I am hoping she will do one of the on-line coaching programs Dr. C suggested. That seems to be the best hope to getting us both out of withdrawal.

Come on! It's not that bad! I live in Ohio and run in the snow.
It might help you fight depression.
Plus you both share that as a recreational activity.
Get a babysitter and run together

I talked with the hiring manager on Friday, who said they are putting together an offer for me, thumbs up from all the interviewers in Cleveland, and references. So simply great news to start the weekend. DW, & kids, jumping up and down in the kitchen, it isnt Dallas, but I i have two leads going in Dallas. I figure DW should finish her degree or at least get her teaching cert. I made dinner reservations (for 5) for V-day.

Ya might think that meeting her needs, she might be interested in SF. friday, she cant, saturday, we all go out for dinner, then nothing, sunday night, she brings the ipad to bed so she can look up kids' report cards. I try reading with her, but cant see it. Then she's fuming over that. I'm last on her list. So I went downstairs and watched a movie, slept on the couch. She's mad that I'm upset. AO/DJ and just starts making stuff up. "You never compliment me" But I do frequently, all the time, and I point out several examples, but I never get credit for what I do for her. She says I hate her and I just want a divorce, I tell her I am frustrated because I have a beautiful wife who I feel has no interest in me, and I cant touch her.

Frustrating.

Congratulations!



This is very hopeful. She is reaching out to you. She is asking you to meet more of her needs. Can you see how fabulous that is? Don't say you need credit for what you are doing, do more!

Cleveland, Ohio?

Good luck with your new position. We just moved up to the frigid north from NC.

It seemed like some kind of weird test. ( "Lets see if he can git himself to Cleveland in 3 degrees, and show up spiffy and polished." -check!) The partner guy was from Chic-ah-go, and the the manager works in DC. I dont know why they were in Cleveland, but the job is here in NJ, or maybe moving to Atlanta at some unknown point. So, kind of best of all options. DW can continue her degree, but still end up further south without having to change jobs... again!?!

Go me!!!

Wow, I'll take your word for it... but I'll have whatever you're drinken'!

It seems like a different issue every month. As in, so many issues, I feel a little overwhelmed and chasing a ghost in a house of mirrors!

But thank you, I really do appreciate the encouragement. I was so totally bummed this morning. I feel so rediculous being so upset over sex, and yet, surrounded by it every day. I really miss that aspect where sex is a beautiful exciting part of a relationship, but she makes it seem like I'm a nasty perverted letch... for wanting to be with my beautiful wife. ...And she thinks I'M the crazy one!

Gift-giving is am easy problem to resolve, and if unresolved causes unnecessary LB withdrawals for you or her, or both.

If she finds being given the correct gifts from you to be important, then it is easy to find to what she would like and give it. You could just ask her each time, as my H does with me. Alternatively, you could set up a wish list on Amazon or elsewhere for her, and she could tick several things and you then match them to the occasion.

If it is important for you for your gifts to be appreciated then you need to give the right kind, so go back to suggestion 1: find out what she wants and give it to her.

If you think you are being thoughtful and she is finding that this misses the mark, and if this is going on elsewhere in your mariage too, then this is part of your problem.

I lived through this for years in my marriage. Sex sometimes 12 times a year, sometimes 3. I struggled with my desires and asked myself, Am I an animal to have a need for sex?
I would masturbate which resulted in immediate guilt and took up distance running as I found if I pushed myself to the point of exhaustion I don't desire sex.
Of course that was only temporary as I lost focus of my career and only became more frustrated.
I feel sorry for you.

NYC.
I think when she started arguing with you there is a silver lining:

She is in the conflict stage of marriage.
Have you read the 3 stages of marriage? You may want to read the article again.

Not necessarily.
NYC, you understand I haven't been that familiar with your situation and I apologize for that. But some of your recent posts have (unfortunately) been very close to home for me in my past. However, I have the benefit of retrospect and I feel I understand the situation much better now (and can apply the understanding to my new marriage in various ways).

Dr. Harley talks a lot about what is required for a woman to feel compelled to have SF. I realize you were being brief above, but it's important for you to understand fully so that you can get out of this rut of being so frustrated.

Can I ask a question?
Would you consider that sleeping on the couch is a Selfish Demand on your part??? After 2 years dating and a month of marriage, I finally started seeing some of NatureGirl's "pouting/sulking" episodes as such. We talked about it and read LB's together and she agreed.

Also, what kind of 1on1 (UA) time are you really getting? Do you and your wife agree to the amount of time? --- could you estimate it if she's not particiapting in the program? does it come close to 15 hours? Can you build up to it?

Did you POJA the Valentine's Day reservations???
If she wont poja with you, you can still look for an enthusiastic agreement with some simple questions -- "what do you think of us all going out to eat together?"

just some thoughts. I've been there brother and was unsuccessful in solving the problem. i hope you have better results.

opt

wow. Thank you for the post and the advice.

I'm pretty certain we only get 5-10 hours a week. It has been very difficult to POJA on this goal. This was part of my "selfish demand" that we/she stop watching TV in bed at night. We had zero "pillow talk" and ultimately she even ended up wearing headphones, which shut me out completely. She felt that the POJA rule to "do nothing" until you reach agreement meant she kept watching tv. She felt like it was a pure win-lose situation, and I was making a selfish demand.

However, in the past 3-4 weeks she has admitted to sleeping much better, falling asleep in seconds, and enjoying our pillow talks. And I am not kept awake until 11-12-1 am when I have to wake for work at 6-630. I would 'dream' about the nonsense conversations on TV half the night. It was important to me to stand up for this, and I am glad she/we have POJA on this now.

We did dinner at the same place last year, and she really liked it. The kids had mentioned it, and she liked the idea, so I made the res. So I felt I had POjA and she likes when i plan things.

Yes, it was selfish of me to be angry and sleep on the couch. But I was also getting some space to 'protect her' from the AO boiling up inside me. I am trying hard not to be angry with her, ad I am doing much better, but not yet able to handle rejection well. Then in the morning, she wanted an argument, but I could be calm and rational. She felt it was a selfish demand to want sex and then be angry when I dont get it. Thats valid too, but it is upsetting when we POJA when we are going to have sex, and then she breaks that over and over again. I feel teased, ignored and jerked around. Her last priority.

So its been almost a month since our hour with Dr. Chalmers. Dw had agreed to do one of the programs, but I'll have to ask her if she is going to. I really think it would help, she thinks its a sales ploy.

Also, I got the Personality inventory back, and it actually had some really good information on WHY I'm depressed and I can research 'treatments'. The counselor suggested building my social network, ie joining a vol. firehouse or a running club. Do the things I did when I was single that I enjoyed. I have been too 'dependent' on DW. Not like I have much time for that.
Caio!

I hope you can get another session with Chalmers. I have read about many reluctant spouses claiming that these people are giving a sales pitch and it saddens me so. There should be no expense spared when talking about building the most romantic marriage imaginable. But yet, the cost of divorce is astronomical in comparison (financially and emotionally) and people rush right into that with relatively little real regard for the long-term consequences. It's WAY to accepted to D in this society, especially when there are REAL proven methods of restoring romatice love into a relationship. If there were as many "marriage" counsellors trained in MB as there are lawyers trained in D, the world would be a much much better place.

You do realize the counsellors advice is contrary to MB, right? To pull yourself AWAY from your wife at this time would create a number of different hazards for your marriage. Including: risk for you to develop positive feelings for someone else (especially in your vulnerable state), and the "contrast effect" of you (*and your wife) being noticably more happy SEPARATE from each other. Your counselor is selling you happiness and you probably would be happier pursuing your own personal goals and ambitions (and your DW will probably be happier having you out of the house where there is no pressure on her to do all these MB things like POJA). But that won't help your marriage one iota.

I understand the need to be away from your DW at night if you're feeling so frustrated. You probably did the right thing. I do think it's possible though for someone to commit a SD without even saying a word, so I was just giving you an objective view of that situation.

I think it's important to clarify (or let Dr. Harley or Jennifer) what a SD is. REquesting SF is not a selfish demand. A SD is first and foremost a DEMAND. A request is first and formost a REQUEST. Big difference.

Can I make a suggestion about POJA? I see a lot of people here trying to start right out with POJAing sex and financial decisions. I've heard Melody talk about working up to that by practicing poja on very small things first. Until you get really good at it, and it becomes natural (and a SAFE strategy for your DW), you just can't expect much when it comes to sex; too complicated, IMV.

Let me give an analogy that might be helpful for you (remember I was in your situation before -- while I failed at solving it, hopefully my insight will be helpful):
Picture sex (SF) as something buried deep in the ground (under years of AO's, DJ's, neglect, decreased time spent together, unmet emotional needs, lack of "connection," and whathaveyou). Now you are trying to dig it out. One shovel full is not going to get you there. You need many and the right kind. You have tried and it's been years, I understand that; but you see that those previous attempts were, unknowing to you, unsuccessful and did not help you make head-way. So you are essentially where you started.

You need the right shovel and time and persistance. MB is the right shovel. How you use it is your technique (it has to be correct and with finesse and patience), and the time is...however long it takes, I would say.

As for the time...I know the effect of waiting so long for intimacy. But objectively, you have some time ahead of you anyway. Divorce, if you had to go to that extreme, takes a long time. Then dating is nothing to jump into. And even if you make the same mistakes as some of us, the intimacy that might be available to you is not really what you're looking for anyway. So the best option is still doing what it takes to rebuild with your DW, no matter how long it takes.

Would your DW listen to the show? Read posts/threads? Post?
She seems skeptical. If she learned more about this program, I think she would become convinced that there is not a relatively large amount of money being made here. The Harleys are practically giving away the store, if you think about it; regardless of the high price of phone counselling.

opt

This is not POJA. This is you predicting what she wants. Please rethink and eliminate the romantic notion of "surprising" her or planning things without full enthusiasic agreements. It's not MB (the Harleys talk about it, - after 50 years of marriage they rarely "surprise" each other or plan anything without full discussions). If they don't, then, we who struggle with making our marriages work should not expect good results from doing it either.
I'm re-considering my post -- you did have some agreement "she liked the idea."
I maintain that in the fragile state of your marriage you may consider getting enthusiastic agreement instead of "liking the idea"

It's not to late to see if her enthusiasm is there. Make sure you have it, or cancel the reservations and make plans that she IS enthusiastic about for sure. Not begrudgingly, but because you hold the relationship above ALL other concerns. It seems extreme but It will mean a lot to your wife and kids if you do What's Right.
opt

Point taken, and thanks for sharing both thoughts. I also thought that I should use these small opportunities to build the habit of POJA. As you mentioned in the previous post.

Yes, i noticed that about the counselors advice, I also feel I dont really have a single male friend either. That increases my 'clingy-ness' to my wife and her friends and activities, which is not attractive either.

I also like the analogy. The question in my mind is the difficulty being celebate when she may take time to get back to the intimacy state, especially when she doesnt want to do the MB program, and we dont get 15 nor 25 hours UA. Then, I'm resentful after a couple weeks of celebacy, or when i 'fall off the wagon' taking care of myself, then I really resent having sex alone.


More----
I asked her to listen to the show, and the app is on her phone, but she says she 'doesnt have time for that'. I could invite her to post here, but, she would not like my sharing TMI and thoughts. She'd be mad, but I feel like I should be transparent and open /honesty about it too. But maybe AFTER valentines day!



Thanks