Hi, I'm new to the forum but I've been on the website before and read "HNHN".

I've been married for 12 1/2 years. We have two amazing sons. My marriage has been in trouble for years and I have been trying to fix it for years. Two years ago I was able to get H to go to Retrovaille and we had a breakthrough and some peace for a little while. But we both reverted back to our old ways.

In Ocotber things got really bad and after a fight he stopped talking to me (his usual way of dealing with things). Not a word, a glance, anything for days. I tried to stay strong and act like it didn't bother me but after four days I caved and called him at work and begged him to forgive me. I told him everything was my fault, that I'd change and do whatever he wanted. He was angry but he talked to me again. He was talking to me again but I felt awful about myself. I ended up going to counseling for myself and it really opened my eyes. I learned that both H and I are codependent. I started working on me and how I act, I started to feel better.

But things between H and I have gotten awful. He's become more controlling than ever (or maybe I just see it now) and he freaks out whenever I try to be independent. Things came to a head on Saturday night and after an argument I told him I was done. We've haven't spoken to each other since. We're just ignoring each other, sleeping in seperate rooms, etc. He's also ignoring the kids if they're around me.
I really don't want to get divorced. I know, deep down my H still loves me. I know counseling would help (both alone and as a couple) but he says he won't go. I think the only thing I can do is stand strong this time and not cave. I have to break this cycle. I don't like ignoring each other and I'm not really even mad anymore, just sad and hurt. I feel bad for my H. I know he is in a lot of pain. And I worry about him. I think divorcing him would destroy him. I know I can't force him to get help.
I've asked him several times to leave and he says it's his house and if I want to go I can. When I told him I was going to get a divorce he said he'd quit his job so I wouldn't get any money. I'm not in a position to leave him but I'm trying to get things in order so I can. Right now my fear is that I'll give in and crawl back to him. I just don't know what to do anymore. I'm so worn out. I don't want to be with him like this but I don't know if I can be without him. What do I do?

Welome to MB, hockeyfan. I'm sorry to hear of the unhappiness in your marriage.

I'm not clear, though, what the problem has been all these years. The only thing I can see is that you discovered, through counselling, that you and your H are "co-dependent". However, I'm not sure that this can be the problem. We are supposed to be "co-dependent" when we are married - that's really the whole point of being married, isn't it?

You mentioned that your H "freaks out" whenever you try to be independent, but independent behaviour is detrimental to marriage, so he might have good grounds for freaking out. In what ways are you trying to be independent?

In short, could you be more specific about what you and your H have been fighting about all these years?

I'm not sure there is just one problem. For a very long time, the relationship has been about me doing whatever he wants, trying to meet all his needs, etc. which I have no problem doing. I really like taking care of people. And I love taking care of my husband. But he used to take care of me too. He's always been moody and a bit selfish. He also always been very ambitious and has never handled disappointment well. He really things if you work hard you'll get what you deserve in life. I wish that was true, but the reality is life is often unfair. He lost his job a few years back because of the economy and he just seemed to get mad at the world. He has another job but the pay is considerably less even though he works just as hard. Since then he's been mean, cold, distant. He stopped meeting my needs, he stopped being nice to me. He stopped helping me with the kids, the house, or anything. I would have to walk around on eggshells just to avoid setting him off. Most of the time he'd be in a bad mood and I'd have no idea why. Was it me? the kids? work? A combo? He would just be mean and make rude comments and insult me and if I tried to get him to talk to me about what was bothering him he'd give me the silent treatment. If I tried to come to him and tell him what he was doing was hurting me, he'd usually ignore me (turn on the tv and watch while I tried to talk to him) or mock me. If I am able to get him to talk, he just gets defensive. The arguments usually end with me walking away and him giving me the silent treatment for days, weeks until I give in and beg for forgiveness.

I read HNHN and it made me realize I wasn't crazy. Every chapter about the woman's needs said how I was feeling and what I needed. I thought the chapters on his needs made sense and helped me see it from the male perspective. I tried to meet his needs as outlined in the book, he just pushed me away or ignored me. I snooped and found inappropriate texts and e-mails between him and a colleague. Some where sexual and suggestive and others were him going to her for advice to "just talk". But in my opinion none of it was right for a married man to do. When I confronted him about it, he told me it was just a joke. Then he got mad at me for invading his privacy. I asked him to stop talking to her and to apologize. He said he didn't do anything wrong and he wasn't sorry and would never be sorry. After a few days of the silent treatment I apologized like a big fool and told him HNHN made me paranoid that he was or would have an affair. I gave him the book to read and he read a couple chapters before telling me I was an idiot and didn't understand the book. He told me I wasn't meeting his needs and I asked him to tell me how to. I also told him he has to fill my love bank and try to meet my needs too. He said he was and that was it. He wouldn't read any more of the book and he wouldn't discuss it with me.

All that was before I went to counseling. Basically my counselor told me I put everyone's needs above my own and that I try to fix everyone and everything often times without be asked. In the beginning I wanted to do whatever it took to make my husband happy because I loved him and he always seemed to want to do whatever it took to make me happy. And as he became angry and disconnected, I tried to do whatever he wanted at the expense of my own wants, needs, and happiness. Even after he stopped meeting my needs, I kept trying to make him happy. I kept thinking it was my fault, I'm his wife and I need to find a away to make him happy. Counseling helped me realize that he has a problem(s) and that I can't force him to change or make him change. He can only change if he wants to change. So I decided to stop doing everything for him and about him. I started to make my own decisions about things instead of running every thing past him first. Naturally if it involved parenting or something joint like finances I would include him. But before I couldn't even decide what to make for dinner or when to cook it without consulting him first. I stopped snooping because I know I can't stop him from doing something wrong. Only he can make that decision. I started making time for myself, nothing major just time to meditate or pray or work out. This is what I mean by independent. May be not the best word choice. I'm just no longer going to kill myself trying to make him happy. It wasn't working anyway. However, I've noticed that as I've started to make myself happier he's seemed threatened by it. It's just little comments he makes or reations he has. Plus, I used to let him get to me and now I'm starting to ignore him or I just walk away before I blow up.

I really love my husband and I want to help him but I just don't think I can do it at the expense of myself anymore. I don't want to get a divorce but I cannot live like this anymore.

There is one very BIG problem here.



Your H is having an affair, emotional or physical. That explains everything - the sudden change in him, the irritability towards you and the kids, his refusal to let you meet his needs.

All of these are great big red flapping flags, Hockey.

I suggest that you ask the moderators to move your thread to the Surviving infidelity forum. Just click notify. You will get expert advice there.

In the meantime, do not tell your H anything about this forum.

Your counselor's approach is directly at odds with the Marriage Builders approach, so I recommend discontinuing the counseling sessions and giving yourself a crash course in Marriage Builders. You can learn the basic concepts by reading the free articles on this site. (Since you've been making independent decisions rather than joint decisions, be sure to read about the Policy of Joint Agreement. Also, you seem to take a "renters" approach to your relationship, so it may be helpful for you to read "Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders.")

It seems obvious that your husband is having an affair, so I also suggest you read Dr. Harley's book, Surviving an Affair. However, you should keep it hidden from your husband because you will need to gather evidence of the affair. (If he becomes aware of your suspicions, he'll become more vigilant about covering his tracks.) The "Operation Investigate" section of this forum provides lots of practical advice for gathering evidence of an affair.

I agree with JC. Sounds like an EA. Dont try to educate him either. Read up on Plan A and snooping. The vets will be here to help you soon follow all the advice.

When you say that you learned in counseling that you are "codependent" exactly who is the addict?
Or is this misuse of the term codependent?
Codependency is when you enable another persons addictions

I tried snooping and I read HNHNs and articles on the website. When I told him I knew about the e-mails and texts and that it had to stop he told me he did nothing wrong. I don't think MB is going to work if he isn't interested on working on things. When I tried to do the things I learned in the book and articles and when I try to meet his needs I just end up feeling crappy about myself. I'm getting nothing back in return; no time, no affection, no support, nothing. I'm just his emotional punching bag. The counseling has helped me; it has helped me see my own self worth and realize my needs and feelings matter and that I can't make him change, only he can want to change.

My counselor and the book I read by Melody Beattie said that codependency doesn't have to involve addicition. It's just when their is an unhealthy reliance on another person. While I completely think codependency can be healthly in a relationship, it is a problem when you're allowing a person to hurt you over and over. For years I have been doing whatever it takes to try and make my H happy regardless of my own needs or wants. I thought that was how it's suppose to be in a relationship but it only works when both are trying to make each other happy. He does nothing but hurt me and I let him. I resisted putting myself first as my counselor explained. I didn't want to take time to take care for myself or do anything for myself. I thought doing everything for everyone else was making me happy and made me a good person. Now that I'm learning to set boundaries (i.e. not offering to fix everyone's problems, not allowing my boss to dump extra stuff on me at work, and telling my husband the way he is treating me is not acceptable and I don't have to take it) and focus on what I need to function as a person, I'm happier, I'm less stressed, I'm a better mother. I think I'm even a better wife but he doesn't seem to want any part of me.

I really loved what I read in HNHN and on MB's site but I don't see how it's going to work if he's not willing to go along with any of it.

Your counselor is wrong.
How can somebody be codependent if no one is dependent on drugs?

Here is an article Dr Harley wrote about "codependency"

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8110_cod.html

It's time to focus on the extreme danger in your life: the fact that your H is having an affair. I understand that you are withdrawing from your WH (wayward husband = a husband who is having an affair), you have tried to meet his needs, he wants nothing to do with you. That has nothing to do with codependency whatsoever.

Your WH is not relating to you because his focus is on another woman. He feels guilty about it, that is why he is depressed and - this always happens - he is twisting the guilt he feels for his betrayal of you by blaming you.

He is in the grip of an true addiction - his needs are being met by another woman (OW).

However, he is upset when you seem to want to walk away - this is called cake-eating. Waywards LOVE having their BS (betrayed spouse) and their AP (affair partner) meeting their needs at the same time. It's so delicious for WS.

Yum yum yum.

My friend, I feel sorry for what is happening. You are a decent caring person, you do not deserve what your WH is serving out.

I hope Melody Lane and co. will be along with their indominable instructions of how to proceed to SAVE your marriage. It is possible but it involves following a very strict and narrow path where you will be required to follow some counter-intuitive steps (like exposure). If the vets don't turn up soon (and they are the best), I will send the critical links that you must follow tomorrow (it's v. late at night here ATM & I am too tired to search).

Hang in there and do not inform your WH about this forum just yet.

Yes, ditch the counsellor. She's not helping you see the danger that lies like a poisonous snake in your midst.

Thanks Mirabelle.

Hockey, first things first, order "Surviving an affair" by Dr. Harley.

While you are waiting for the book around, start snooping. You want to identify the OW, work out how far along the affair is, and get evidence.

Keep all this evidence in a safe place. Do NOT alert your WH to what you are doing or suspecting. If you do, it will be harder to catch him out.

* Check his phone records for a number that repeats itself. If there is nothing on his phone, look for an affair phone. They can be hidden in strange places.
* Check his emails. If you can't, put a keylogger on his computer (check the Investigation forum for info about this).
* Put a GPS in his car to see where he is going.
* Get a voice-activated recorder (VAR; check the Investigation forum for info about this) and stick it under the driver's seat in his car.
* Check his pockets and desk and other likely places for lunch receipts etc that could be suspicious.

While you are doing this, be nice and calm. Have a look at:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3300_needs.html

Determine as best you can what your WH's top emotional needs are.

Then meet those needs while refraining from lovebusters. It's called plan A.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html

It sounds like you're in a sort of plan A already but you should drop the independent stuff that makes your WH feel hostile (because he wants his cake).

When you find evidence, come back to the forum and we'll help you with the next step of the narrow path that you must travel to save your marriage.

The new job is not what made him start to be cold and distant with you. It's because he met OW there. She obviously meets some needs. Having your needs met is as addictive to affair partners (APs) as crack cocaine.


Check if she has Facebook. Get a list of all her contacts on FB (you'll need them for exposure later). Get as much information on this colleague as you can. Especially, see if she is married.

Good luck. You don't deserve what your WH has done to you but MB has a plan that will make your marriage stronger and better and more fulfilling than it's ever been. However, FIRST, you must KILL the affair. You cannot fix your marriage until the affair has been eliminated for good and there is permanent no contact between the APs.

This is a lot to take in. I'm not sure I can buy anything because (1) our finances are a mess, we have no extra money and (2) everything is joint and he'd find out what I purchased. I did some snooping last night and found nothing.

It IS alot to take in however if you just take it step by step you'll get it accomplished.

Much if not most of the info you need is available free on this site. Check your local library for the books suggested.

And many of the suggested "snooping" tools are also offered free on some sites. Again, check the Investigation Forum.

Keep checking.

What snooping did you do?

What tools did you use?