Point taken...I posted on one other forum ages ago, before finding MB. To tell the truth, can't even remember what the forum was, but do remember was a faith-based site. It was kind of like when H and I went to a Christian counselor for a while. Religious advice, but very little practical direction. This place is great at providing practical direction for marital recovery, if the poster at issue wants to do the work.

One thing I got here that I got nowhere else - especially not in "real life" - was advice and encouragement when everyone else in my life was telling me to give up on trying to save my marriage. Now, my M is not one of the "saved" ones around here, but I tried my best to follow the advice here and do what I needed to do as a repentant FWW to try and save our M. And I took plenty of 2X4's, and heard a lot of things that I didn't want to hear about myself. But I was determined, perhaps long past the point that I should have been, to try to repair the damage I had done to both our M and to my H.

If you want to remain married, you have to have that same determination.

You have children. Wouldn't you agree that the best thing for them would be for them to grow up in a home with both parents, who love each other and demonstrate to them an example of what a marriage *should* be? To show how - in our society of a 50% divorce rate and 15 second celebrity marriages culminating in spectacular divorces - marriage is worth fighting for?

You say that you can't stand to be around FTF. OK, if he is actively LB'ing you, then I can understand. I don't want to be around broken much these days, and I am sure he feels the same about me, because of our mutual LB'ing of each other...but if we both wanted to save our M, we would have to take concrete steps to stop that and care for each other, and meet the needs that each of us wants met the most. Let the posters work on him on his thread, OK? I know it is difficult to meet someone's needs without expectation of anything in return...but if you can do that for a time, then the typical response is that the other person begins to want to meet your needs as well. It doesn't have to be just SF...what other EN's does FTF have? What are some ways you can creatively fill those ENs of AF, AD, IC, and so on? Your top EN's may very well not be the same as FTF's top needs...sorry if I've missed it, but have you figured those out yet? You both should be targeting those top needs to make the biggest deposits in each others' LB$'s.

Finally, if you just can't get into posting and want face to face help, consider the coaching center or online accountability program. Yes, they are pricey, but consider how much a D will cost...financially as well as emotionally. And you can respectfully suggest that to FTF, and see if it is something he is willing to do.

I thought we were

You know that is the hardest thing for me to do is figure out what my ENs are! I thought they were IC, FC and Adm but he's been doing most of those things and my feeling for him haven't changed at all. What am I doing wrong??

Have you taken the Emotional Needs Questionnaire yet? That is a good place to start!

You know that is the hardest thing for me to do is figure out what my ENs are!

Sadly, you have the best definition of your most desired ENs.

What did your affair partner bring to the relationship table that your husband did not?

Pleasant or not, analysis of THAT exact question was the key to defogging Bride, and giving me - and eventually, us - a starting point.

I've taken the questionnaire. Actually looking at it right now. It's all scribbled on bc I couldn't make up my mind. But the question about what the affair partner brought to the table is a good one. We had a lot in common since we worked in the same field. He understood what I was going through day to day and gave some good advice. He was willing to listen to me gripe about it. That's why I put IC first on my list. I still don't think my husband really listens to me.

So teach him how.

In what ways, if you don't mind?

Listens but interrupts to tell you what to do or how to do it?

Listens but then doesn't seem to have really heard you or, worse, does other things while you're talking?

Listens but doesn't seem that interested in what you're saying?

Listens but nods off? Just kidding.

I'm sure that most of us here have, in one way or another, experienced what you may be describing. My wife and I have actually had conversations where she prefaced things with "I'm just telling you this because I need to vent. I don't want you to try to fix it. I don't want you to really respond, I just want you to nod and say that you understand...that you empathize. Ok?"

Well, me just sitting there quietly can be kind of hard to do when you're in the habit of fixing things, but, in your case you may just have to flat-out tell him what kind of response you want to receive.

What NW said is common to most men. It's the common way we think and I made the same mistake as well with my WW. She would tell me her problems and I would brainstorm ways to fix them and get frustrated when she didn't try any of the solutions. LET HIM KNOW that you just want to vent. You both have to start over because of the affair. Communicating directly what you want would help tremendously don't assume he should just know. Or that he's just doing it because you say so. Remember he's willing to do it because he cares for you. It will be awkward at first but with practice it will become a habit. Did you both read His Needs, Her Needs together? I suggest you get it and read together.

What about affection? Maybe it was the WAY that your AP listened to you that deposited units into your love bank. Would he sit close, hug you while you talked, hold your hand, leave you notes etc?

If you think your BH is meeting your needs, then is it that you have closed your LB to him?

Do you still have anything the OM gave you during the affair? Do you think of the OM often? Are you fantasizing about OM? Do you have any other male friends with whom you also share IC?

What extraordinary precautions do you have in place? Do you and your H spend a minimum of 15 hours a week giving each other undivided attention?

If you are committed to recovery, do you know FTFs top ENs, are you trying to meet them?

Just a few questions that I thought might help you sort out your difficulties with recovery.

One way would be to simply state; this conversation no longer feels safe to me, can we talk about this at another time?

There is one small exception to the rule here, though; have you answered ALL of his questions about the affair with RADICAL HONESTY?

If you have refused to answer, or given vague answers, to his question about your infidelity, recovery is going to be hampered, if it happens at all.

...what the affair partner brought to the table is a good one. We had a lot in common since we worked in the same field. He understood what I was going through day to day and gave some good advice. He was willing to listen to me gripe about it.

Uhhhhhh.......yup!

The last survey I saw revealed that almost 75% of the women who had affairs did so with co-workers, clients, contractors, etc at their jobs. My FWW was one.

Increasingly, long hours, highly dependent and stressful tasks, and (amazingly), the conscious efforts of companies to foster "friendly" relations between colleagues via "team-building" exercises is making this almost certain to INCREASE!

Knowing the characteristics of the enemy is more than half the battle to defeat him, kiddo. Find conversation topics that you and FBH can discuss with the level of interest as is your livelihoods depended on it.

Wow you guys are awesome! Thanks so much for all the great advice!

I will try next time to tell him what kind of response I am expecting before I say something. Actually, I came up with a phrase to say before I said something important that I want him to remember so that he would know that I need him to remember it. It's like he doesn't care what I have to say and then he forgets that I told him and claims I never told him. It's very frustrating!

One way would be to simply state; this conversation no longer feels safe to me, can we talk about this at another time?

I really like this and will try this next time.

There is one small exception to the rule here, though; have you answered ALL of his questions about the affair with RADICAL HONESTY?

Yes, I believe I have answered all his questions with radical honesty to his satisfaction but I will ask him again tonite. It can be a topic of conversation as we work on spending our 15 hrs together.

Find conversation topics that you and FBH can discuss with the level of interest as is your livelihoods depended on it. [/quote]

This is hands down the hardest thing for us to do. We don't do anything except take care of the kids so we don't have anything to talk about except the kids. We do go out on fri and sat nites but sit there with nothing to talk about.

FC, have you done the RC (recreational companionship) inventory yet? #1, it may give you some suggestions for things you can do together that are a little more "side by side" as opposed to "face to face" - so you're not sitting there staring at each other at a loss for things to talk about - think about things like hiking, playing tennis, go play putt-putt or drive go-carts...get out and play and act like kids together. Play a board game with a glass of wine. Read a book together. Work on a home improvement project. You might be suprised at how conversation flows when you hit on something you both enjoy doing together.

#2, it might give you some ideas for new activities or even hobbies that you can take up together...something like outdoor/nature photography, for instance - you can get out together and go places to take pictures, maybe take a photography class together, etc...or gourmet cooking - lots of community colleges offer night courses in those types of subjects - and guess what? it will give you another topic of conversation!

Your problem is that you married a man. We are like this, because our brains are different. Men compartmentalize. If he is thinking of something else, spurious distractions are ignored. You need to help out by making the interruption strong enough for him to notice. This is one of the important aspects of scheduled UA time - it puts the husband on notice to pay attention.

By the way, I have experienced the same problem with my wife. In her case, she has genuine hearing loss, but at the beginning, I thought she was just ignoring me.

WG, yes we have done the RC inventory together and came up with a few things. They all cost money but we both feel that it's worth it to get our marriage on track. I need to just get off my [censored] and do it! Those are all really great ideas. Thanks so much! We will talk about them when we go out tonite and plan to do something next weekend.

Dr Harley recommends that you spend a Sunday afternoon together and plan out how you will spend your 20 weekly hours together

Have you seen this?
The Critical Importance of Undivided Attention