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Glove oil,
I'm not sure if I'm misunderstanding you or I didn't make myself clear to begin with. You mention a promise I shouldn't have made and I'm unclear on what that was. Before we went to see our friends that day we had poja that regardless of their requests to keep secrets we would discuss it with each other but not with them.i feel like I kept up my end then he turned around and used it against me.

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Fluffy. The POJA does not apply when it requires people to keep damaging secrets from a victim. You cannot POJA to NOT do the right thing. That is not what the POJA was meant for.

Your huband knows what it feels like to be kept in the dark when his marriage is being assaulted behind his back. Your husband did the right thing.


ME: BW
HIM: FWH
Married 18 yrs
DDay 09/2008 and 12/2008

Recovered

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If he had come to me to discuss it, I would have told him that I enthusiastically agreed to telling the friend yes something is going on, check her texts you'll find what you need to know. I feel like that would have given him everything he needed without damaging our relationship. My problem is not nearly as much what H did but how he did it. Then in explaining my feelings to him, I became the target of an angry outburst which made me sorry I shared.

This morning wasn't any better, I am still upset and when I started to discuss it was exactly the same as last night. He started yelling and complaining that I was lecturing him, trying to make m feel guilty for helping out a friend ( the one he spent all last night with, not the one he told the secret to) and threw the love busters book across the room.

I can see how I can be to blame for the issue with s friend. It was a prior commitment that we had agreed on him helping but I wasn't planning on getting into a big fight right beforehand and I wasn't planning on it talking all night. During the fight he sarcastically said to me "what, am I supposed to call him and say sorry I can't come help you but I need to stay homeland to to my wife" which made me feel likei could not be honest and say yes, that is exactly what I need. So I was dishonest with my feelings and said I was ok with him going and as a result I have been upset over it for half a day. This morning he used the same tone and asked if he should call his boss and say he was going to be late because we had to finish our discussion. At least I learned from last night and told him that when he uses that tone I feel like he is saying ' I am offering to do something that I have no intention of doing because it is so completely stupid I can't even believe you would consider it" his response was that it is stupid.

So how do I be completely open and honest when I don't feel safe or comfortable doing so? Both yesterday and today I let him know how I was feeling and I was met with anger, yelling, swearing, book throwing, and responses that made it clear that i was being stupid and he didnt want to hear it.

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You need to understand what GO said. Go back and read his response to your thread. He dissected how your husband felt about your actions. That isn't POJAable IMO. Your friend is engaging in the same damaging actions you did to him and you concealed it from his friend. What you should of done was tell your friend that you cannot keep a secret from your husband. You placed your friend's feelings over the protection of your spouse.

If it were me I would be thinking that this "friend" knew about your affair and hid it from me. With you two hiding information about her EA shows that you haven't truly placed your husband's protection above all others. Also, it sends a message that you feel that she (your friend) is wrong and you could easily slipped back into your old ways. What to do now that he's angry and upset? Apologize and let him know that he did the right thing and you will take measures to ensure that this won't happen again. Is he going to lovebust the he11 out of you maybe, but you need to understand its anger at your deception of concealing a possible affair from him. Thats questionable morals and values after you just betrayed him. If he gets angry let him know that you dont' feel comfortable talking about this and you both can talk about it in a more pleasant environment and mood.

Also, both of you should send that BH to the forums or at least the website. Notice I said both of you because that is a POJA type situation. However, him informing a friend of an impending disaster to his marriage isn't a POJA type situation. He did the right thing and I understand that your mad because you probably consider it an independant behavior. Ask your self this, if all the enabling friends in your affair told you what was right and disapproved of your relationship wouldn't things in your recovery been much easier? You done your husband, the future BH and WS an injustice. Please see it for what it is.

Last edited by TranquilDark; 03/01/13 11:53 AM. Reason: added information
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...both of you should send that BH to the forums or at least the website.

I gave that exact advice to FBH on 27 February along with suggesting the two of them are in no way in any shape to help OTHER folks! It seems FM and MA are fine with asking questions, but not too keen on taking advice!

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FM. Somebody has to take the high road here. You wasted half a day being angry and woke up this morning in the same mood. One of the rules of POJA in conflict is that if you can't negotiate in a safe environment step away and come back to it at a later time when emotions are not so high. You are both love busting unnecessarily, I'm not saying not to practice RH, I'm saying that you do it when you are both in a mood to handle the conversation without love busting.


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I am not understanding what I did wrong here. I immediately ( in the car on the way home) told him everything my friend told me under the understanding that it was in confidence and that we were to discuss it before discussing with either of them what was said to us. I did not conceal a thing from H or give him and reason to question me. After that I have stayed out of it. He discussed it with his friend without consulting me, then after reading the advice to send his friend here and agreeing to stay out of it because it was damaging our relationship he went and told his friend everything.
I realize that morally telling his friend was the right thing to do, but I feel that doing so after telling me he wouldn't and not discussing it with me in between is a blatant discard for my feelings and it hurt me deeply. Before the A my biggest complaint was that I felt unloved and unimportant. I feel very strongly that by choosing to protect his friend's immediate request for information rather than telling him that he needed to discuss it with me first he is sending the loud and clear message, the friend is more important than I am. It is worth hurting me to help his friend.

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Let's go with empiracal results, shall we?

So how DID your little excursion into infidelity enabling work out for you?

If you would have the wisdom to stop defending your indefensible action (promising to keep silent about her illicit activities) and actually listen to the dozen-or-so folks telling you that they were wrong, you'll save yourself a lot of time, typing, and aggravation - by US!

You have read my post with the alternative "secret". Would you have chosen to have hubby warn the other husband in that case?

Yes, or No?

If "No", you would be branding yourself as a sociopath, so let's hope that's not your answer.

If "Yes", well, what you have NOT displayed is knowledge that moral issues are moral issues. Infidelity, being immoral, is to be fought on the same terms as attempted murder. And you did not respond to my first post because you fully realize that you have not learned to "hate" infidelity, to eliminate any "relativity" in its consideration, that your hubby would have every right to expect you to have achieved when he gave you the opportunity to regain his trust.

I commend him 1) for his action, and 2) for rejecting your outrage.

You have a lot of work to do....and quite frankly, I would expect him to give you less "benefit of the doubt".

You blew it, bigtime, Mouse!

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If there was ever a situation in which my FWW would approach me about a conversation she would have had with a married female friend of hers who would have shared a 'secret' concerning inappropriate behavior with some one of the opposite sex (EA or PA) and did not tell me she DENOUNCED the conduct immediately during the conversation with her friend�well�that would be a strong signal to me that her attitude toward adultery was quite different than mine. In fact, it would be a massive love bank withdraw to the extent that I would actually consider divorce.

See, I would expect my FWW (as I would do) to say to her friend �look, what you are doing is wrong. Either you tell him tonight or I am going to do it for you. Your husband has every right to know this information as it greatly affects his life�. Anything short of that is called enabling.

Any other path than this, would signal lessons have not been learned and she hasn�t really changed. See, my FWW truly understands the pain that an A brings to the BS and many many other people. With this knowledge, I would expect her to make the right decisions when the opportunity presented itself.

That is where you went wrong fluffy. That is why he is upset.

I see from your perspective how you might be upset by your H not discussing having the conversation with his friend prior to doing so. However, it is possible that his attitude is similar to mine as stated above. If I thought for one second, my FWW would enable such behavior after ALL the lessons we have learned through our R; I would not want to be married to her.

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Originally Posted by 20YearHistory
If there was ever a situation in which my FWW would approach me about a conversation she would have had with a married female friend of hers who would have shared a 'secret' concerning inappropriate behavior with some one of the opposite sex (EA or PA) and did not tell me she DENOUNCED the conduct immediately during the conversation with her friend�well�that would be a strong signal to me that her attitude toward adultery was quite different than mine. In fact, it would be a massive love bank withdraw to the extent that I would actually consider divorce.

See, I would expect my FWW (as I would do) to say to her friend �look, what you are doing is wrong. Either you tell him tonight or I am going to do it for you. Your husband has every right to know this information as it greatly affects his life�. Anything short of that is called enabling.

Any other path than this, would signal lessons have not been learned and she hasn�t really changed. See, my FWW truly understands the pain that an A brings to the BS and many many other people. With this knowledge, I would expect her to make the right decisions when the opportunity presented itself.

That is where you went wrong fluffy. That is why he is upset.

I see from your perspective how you might be upset by your H not discussing having the conversation with his friend prior to doing so. However, it is possible that his attitude is similar to mine as stated above. If I thought for one second, my FWW would enable such behavior after ALL the lessons we have learned through our R; I would not want to be married to her.

This hits the nail on the head. See you are pointing out the splinter in your BH's eye while you have a log in your own. Me thinks I gave you the "F" too soon.


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Originally Posted by Fluffy_mouse
Tonight I am having a hard time and I could use some advice.

My closest friend and H's closest friend are married. They are currently having a hard time, it sounds to me like she is having an EA though she claims it is nothing. She recently confided in me and I was telling her about the MB principles. After the talk she asked me not to tell H but he wanted to know and in keeping with being completely open and honest with each other I told him but made it clear that I would only tell him if he did not tell his friend. He agreed but the next day he told a lot of what I told him to his friend. I was upset and expressed this to him. We had a long discussion about how I felt betrayed anyone of the biggest problems for me in our marriage before we started with MB was I felt that he put other people's feelings ahead of mine. He apologized for breaking my confidence but justified it by saying that he felt that telling him was the right thing to do.

Today he told me that he spoke to his friend and told him everything because he needed to know. After I just told him how betrayed I was that he told his friend any of what I told himinconfidence and how he should have discussed it with me first he did it again to an even greater degree. When I told him how upset I was that he again broke my confidence and put someone else above me he started yelling at me that it was e right thing to do and I'm the one who f---Ed him over so I didn't know how it felt so it was his call to stop it from happening to his friend.

My feelings are 1. He should have protected my feelings over his friend 2. If he felt that strongly about telling his friend we should have discussed it first 3. I feel like I never should have told him since he did break his word to not to tell so I feel like I can't trust him to keep my confidences and 4. When I tried to be open with my feelings and why I was upset he completely shut me down, yelled at me and said it was the right thing to do so he did it. End of story, he would do it again.

I understand his reasoning for wanting to tell his friend but I feel like the way it went down completely ignored everything we have learned so far I MB. He had a previous commitment to go help a friend this evening and the fight was on his way for work to his friend's house so we have not had achance to further discuss it yet and I don't know when he will be home tonight. Am I being completely unreasonable and blowing this out of proportion? Tonight feels like the same crappy relationship we had before any of this started.



Your feelings about exposing adultery in someone else's marriage are irrelevant.

You don't get why your husband is upset?


Simple; because part of him wishes that someone had the courage to expose YOU.

By refusing to expose her to her husband, you became an accomplice in her adultery. You proved you are willing to hide adultery, much as you hid your own.


As another poster has already stated; at this point of nearly 3 years of recovery... or even if it were at 10 years, if my wife requested that I become an accomplice in adultery in someone else's marriage, if she DEMANDED I kept secret the betrayal of a close friend of mine to "protect her feelings", I would comply. I would protect her feelings by divorcing her and exposing the adultery.


You have demonstrated that you are not safe to be married to, as you still excuse lying and infidelity.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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Originally Posted by Fluffy_mouse
Glove oil,
I'm not sure if I'm misunderstanding you or I didn't make myself clear to begin with. You mention a promise I shouldn't have made and I'm unclear on what that was. Before we went to see our friends that day we had poja that regardless of their requests to keep secrets we would discuss it with each other but not with them.i feel like I kept up my end then he turned around and used it against me..
FM, I'll try to clarify:

You told us: "After the talk she asked me not to tell H but he wanted to know and in keeping with being completely open and honest with each other I told him but made it clear that I would only tell him if he did not tell his friend."

Yes, your husband may have allowed you to think that he would not relay the info to his friend.
But by that point in time, if I infer correctly, you had already allowed your friend to think that you wouldn't tell your husband the info she was telling you.

As soon as you did that, you sowed the seeds of this argument.

I'm not saying your husband necessarily handled it as best he could've -- I don't know enough of the details, the intonations, etc., to know that. But as I said, by making his silence a quid pro quo for your sharing the info with him, you put him in a bad spot -- and triggered deep-seated questions he doubtless still has regarding your attitude toward infidelity (even if only in others).

The Rule of Protection suggests that you should not have put him in that spot. The Rule of Protection suggests that you should not have listened to information from your friend under conditions of a pact (whether an actual promise, or an implied promise) that you would keep the info secret from your husband.

Especially when it regards infidelity.
A surprise birthday party, you could keep secret. Possible emotional infidelity on the part of his friend's wife? No way.

Think it over.


Me: FWH, 50
My BW: Trust_Will_Come, 52, tall, beautiful & heart of gold
DD23, DS19
EA-then-PA Oct'08-Jan'09
Broke it off & confessed to BW (after OW's H found out) Jan.7 2009
Married 25 years & counting.
Grateful for forgiveness. Working to be a better husband.
"I wear the chain I forged in life... I made it link by link, and yard by yard" ~Jacob Marley's ghost, A Christmas Carol
"Do it again & you're out on your [bum]." ~My BW, Jan.7 2009
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Had a long talk with H last night and I am understanding things a bit more. I saw my place with my friend to be an ear to talk to, to offer my opinion, which was to talk to her H and to realize that she has formed an emotional attachment to this guy that she needs to end if she wantedto continue her marriage, but to otherwise stay out of it. imnot ready to try to fix someone else's problems, i have enough to work on in my own life without bringing any unnecessary drama into it.
Her information about the OM came after a whole lot of other information, including the fact that she just had a miscarriage that made her realize how much she didn't want children, something her H has made very clear was a condition of their M. She had already told me everything and we were walking back to meet H when she mentioned at the end not to say anything, literally feet away from them so there was no time for discussion.
In any case, we agreed that trying to help them is causing us far too many problems so next time they come to us for help on this we have to tell them that we are praying for them but we need to stay out of it because it is damaging our relationship.

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Originally Posted by Fluffy_mouse
I saw my place with my friend to be an ear to talk to, to offer my opinion

Your plate is overflowing.
You are in no position what-so-ever to listen to other people's relationship issues.

Your attention is 100% required to be focused on YOUR issues. Your relationship dynamics.

Shut it down when anyone tries to involve you in their issues. "Sorry you are going through this. I have to leave, I'm late."

I agree with your husband.

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Good news IMO your wounds are still fresh and you need time to heal.

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Originally Posted by Fluffy_mouse
Had a long talk with H last night and I am understanding things a bit more. I saw my place with my friend to be an ear to talk to, to offer my opinion, which was to talk to her H and to realize that she has formed an emotional attachment to this guy that she needs to end if she wantedto continue her marriage, but to otherwise stay out of it. imnot ready to try to fix someone else's problems, i have enough to work on in my own life

Yes you have to learn that you are enabling her infidelity.

Then learn that if you are remorseful now, becoming a witness to an affair you can not bury the truth and leave a BS in the dark.

I agree and support what your BH did.

Your BH say's to himself why did none of my WW enablers (just refusing to give the BS a heads up to what their WS is doing is enabling) tell me the truth.

Affairs are wrong, I going to be a stand up man and give this man that is being screwed over by his WW the heads up truth.

You type here. Though it seems every post is about you, you, and you.

That is not remorseful.

Being and enabler is not being remsorseful.

Expecting your BH to be an enabler is not remorseful.

Being mad at your BH for being an un-enabler is not remorseful.

Hello is anybody home?

The lights are on but nothing is registering.

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Originally Posted by TheRoad
Hello is anybody home?

The lights are on but nothing is registering.

I disagree.
The lights are on, but someone is playing with the dimmer switch.

FMouse .... When you arrived on MB forums, I really thought you would not get this far.
So, good for you. You have a long road ahead of you.
Focus, girl, focus.

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Originally Posted by Fluffy_mouse
I am not understanding what I did wrong here. I immediately ( in the car on the way home) told him everything my friend told me under the understanding that it was in confidence and that we were to discuss it before discussing with either of them what was said to us. I did not conceal a thing from H or give him and reason to question me. After that I have stayed out of it. He discussed it with his friend without consulting me, then after reading the advice to send his friend here and agreeing to stay out of it because it was damaging our relationship he went and told his friend everything.
I realize that morally telling his friend was the right thing to do, but I feel that doing so after telling me he wouldn't and not discussing it with me in between is a blatant discard for my feelings and it hurt me deeply. Before the A my biggest complaint was that I felt unloved and unimportant. I feel very strongly that by choosing to protect his friend's immediate request for information rather than telling him that he needed to discuss it with me first he is sending the loud and clear message, the friend is more important than I am. It is worth hurting me to help his friend.



Your first mistake was telling your friend in the first place that you would not tell your H, when you clearly knew that you would tell your H.

Your second mistake is thinking/expecting that after telling him this information he would not go to his friend with it.

Do you not see this from his perspective? He does not want his friend to go through even a glimmer of the pain that he has gone through.

I guess my question is, why did you and your H agree not to tell his friend? Allow the other wife to carry on her EA while the two of you know and do nothing about it?

I do see why you are upset that your H shared the info with his friend after he told you he wouldn't. What I don't see is why either of you agreed in the first place not to disclose this info.


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DS - 15
DD -10
My D-day - 11/12/11

Today Me (BS) H (WS)
D-Day #2 01/14/12
I don't want to just survive my affair, I want to recover from it!
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My question is where do your morals lie right now about affairs? Not, what you did, what he did, what she did. What are your morals?

Write them down, base them off marriage builders principles.

Next look at what you are doing and what you are saying. Do they lie within those morals and principles that are defined here on this site?

Do they harm your marriage more or strengthen it?

Take inventory because it sounds like you are changing. I think your BH is right, and you need to support him in doing what is right. I am not saying butt in on your friends relationship, but take the right stance and stand against your friends desire to go astray. If she brings it up again remember the principles you have learned here and say, I can not support you in this.

Keep your communication open with your husband, I assume he wants to know these things.

I have not followed your thread completly, so I might just be grasping at straws here.

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Originally Posted by Fluffy_mouse
Had a long talk with H last night and I am understanding things a bit more. I saw my place with my friend to be an ear to talk to, to offer my opinion, which was to talk to her H and to realize that she has formed an emotional attachment to this guy that she needs to end if she wantedto continue her marriage, but to otherwise stay out of it. imnot ready to try to fix someone else's problems, i have enough to work on in my own life without bringing any unnecessary drama into it.
Her information about the OM came after a whole lot of other information, including the fact that she just had a miscarriage that made her realize how much she didn't want children, something her H has made very clear was a condition of their M. She had already told me everything and we were walking back to meet H when she mentioned at the end not to say anything, literally feet away from them so there was no time for discussion.
In any case, we agreed that trying to help them is causing us far too many problems so next time they come to us for help on this we have to tell them that we are praying for them but we need to stay out of it because it is damaging our relationship.


FM,

Your friend is a foggy wayward, attempting to justify the unbearable pain she is heaping upon her husband without his knowledge or consent.


You are right, you and your BH can't help them, you have troubles of your own.

So, you expose the wayward to the BH, you provide him with info on where to find help, and you stay far, far away from them.

I doubt you would be as indifferent if the man she was having an emotional affair with was your husband.

At this point in your recovery, friends in general are little more than a distraction. Friends with an infidelity of their own to deal with could be disasterous.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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