So I finally got DW to fill out the ENQ legitamately. We reveiwed each other's answers and discussed each one as we went along.

Being the more MB savvy and experienced of the two, I attempted to emphasize that these are to let each other be aware of what needs are important to us and not something we should take in and try to change the others mind with.

Well, on a couple of occassions, we ended up what I would call arguing usually over some of my needs. For example, physical attractiveness. I have a pretty high need for this and do find her very attractive, but there are a few things she does sometimes that I do not like, so I shared some examples with her. She seemed very 'concerned' with this and thinks that she should be able to do some things sometimes if it makes her happy as a woman, even if it makes me very unhappy. She just doesn't get it. I told her to never do something that makes her UNhappy, but to do something that will make her only happy and me unhappy doesn't seem to phase her because it's something she wants to do.

She didn't say I should be 'above' those feelings, but from her reaction and arguments I'm pretty sure that's what she's thinking and that I'm being selfish.

There was a similar reaction to Recreational Companionship, also very high on my list.

Further, she refused to fill out the Love Busters questionnaire because of all the 'bad feelings' it brings up, and she has not read Love Busters, either. I'm reordering it today, however, because I gave my last copy to a friend. (And she still hasn't finished reading HNHN)

Any suggestions?

Why not just fill your part out about yourself and hand it to her?

List the lovebusters you know of that YOU are doing. Acknowledge that reading this list might be painful for her but explain that you need to do this to get yourself under control.

WITW,

There is where the program gets very difficult. When only one spouse really believes in the concepts of this program. It leads you to trying to be the leader � and thus the instructor � which isn�t good for your spouse. No one likes to be educated, told what�s wrong with them, etc.

It is where I was for years and years. Always trying to sell my wife on the program without the commitment of using the counseling and/or services offered here.

You can�t be the instructor. In your situation it isn�t going to work. She�ll fight you on the concepts. You can explain until you�re blue in the face and you�ll still see her resistance.


Resentment Types A and B. I assume, by your communication here, that you are MB savvy and you understand about the two kinds of resentment. You get it. She doesn�t. My W didn�t get it either. Shows you how poor I was at instructing (or how much she hated me educating her).

It wasn�t until Dr. Chalmers explained it to her that she got it. It was a very quick AHA moment for my wife. So quick that she actually cut off Dr. J as she didn�t need her to explain it any more.

My suggestion. Talk to your W about getting a neutral party to help counsel you. If she agrees to counseling ask if she�d like to do phone counseling with the Harleys. It is well worth it. Having that coach, that neutral party escorting you to your way to a better, happy, team-oriented marriage.

Don�t make the same mistake I did. Flounder around on the MB site for 10 years trying to convince my W to take up the concepts only to have things still relatively the same. Her and I met about 8 times with Dr Chalmers a few months ago and while her and I still have a ways to go we are now both on the same team and want the same things � for each other to be happy and for us to be romantically in love with each other.

MrAlias,

Good advice. Indeed, I can tell she doesn't like when I 'preach' to her about MB, and I try to be as unpreachy as possible. This is very evident in that she has taken at least 3 months to only finish about 75% of HNHN, because she needs to do it on 'her time', not mine.

We did the phone counseling once and it didn't turn out so well, having an argument after we hung up, mostly from her unwillingness. I will try to broach it again somehow.

A bit more advise. Stop arguing with her. Seek to understand her perspective. Doing so will allow her to do the same.

You get no where trying to convince the other who's right and who's wrong. There is no right or wrong only what works and what doesn't.

What were the details of the argument? She said she didn't like it and you tried to convince her she needed to?

You are probably going to have to address what happened if you're going to convince her to try again.

Well, the argument wasn't so heated, as it was her being what sounded like frustration and maybe sadness that I don't agree with her. But, I basically told her something that makes me very upset when she does it and she was trying to justify why she does it. I understand her justification completely, but that no less changes my feelings...so that's all I'm really trying to relay to her, that her actions affect me greatly in certain areas, and in others not as much.

She ended up teary eyed and down and even said "I guess we're still not on the same page" I've known this all along. She likes to pretend that we're doing 'great' even though she very much wants to stick her head in the sand.

How much have you and her talked about the POJA and PORH?

I love these 2 concepts because they really emphasize the team oriented piece of MB. Trying to explain your ENs and her LBs can have a sort of distancing effect. I know my W was put off by what I was asking she do to meet my needs. Dicussing thoroughly the POJA, truly understanding what it means and how it will work to benefit you both ... well that can have a profound effect on how you go about meeting ENs and eliminating LBs.

What you described as the "thing" that makes you very upset sounds like the perfect opportunity to POJA, to brainstorm ways that you can handle this situation differently.

Policy of Joint Agreement

Again, indeed you are correct.

I'm fully aware of the POJA and PORH and she isn't, or at leaste she hasn't shown me she is.

She just hasn't bought into MB yet. Speaking with a counselor would likely help, I just have to convince her as such.

When you spoke last to the MB counselor did the question come up of how much buy-in there was in the program? Did you talk individually or together?

How many sessions did you have?

In response to your statement ... you have to convince her ... be careful. It may behoove you to speak to the MB counselor alone first and discuss how you approach your W about counseling. The fact you had a session and didn't go back means you're going to have a lot harder time getting her to attend another session. You're going to need an experts help. We are not experts by any stretch.

Yes, wrong choice of words. I'd like for us to both agree to do this and think she would, I just haven't brought it up yet.

We had one session, mostly individual. So we didn't get to address the buy-in, at least as a couple.

Overall, it didn't go over too well after the fact, but she was still in somewhat of a fog and angry at the time.

WITW do you actually buy in to this program? Do you actually believe in the concept of a romantic, healthy marriage? Some guys think the word "romantic" is fictional movie crap... but I can assure you it isn't.

I'd approach it like this ...

Despite some reading and knowledge you've gained while being here you (not Mrs WITW, you) still have some learning to do. Please accept that as advice not a criticism. I've been here forever and still haven't quite "got it".

You approach her from the perspective that you believe this MB program will work for very well for your M but you understand it isn't something you just do piecemeal. And that up until now you, yourself, have been doing it piecemeal.

Let her know you believe you can have a happy, healthy M where you are both romantically in love with each other BUT it will only work if you implement the entire program and it will work twice as good if you do it together. Tell her you've much to learn and that you want to be someone that she will easily be romantically in love with. Better than before, better than ever.

(FYI this has been a huge point of conversation around here lately. This program works but it isn't a cafeteria plan. You have to adhere to each and every one of the policies ... even if you believe your M is above and beyond some of it. Having being a betrayed spouse you will definitely hit on all corners of the program.)

THis is you how you need to see it. She isn't romantically in love with you because something's missing or something is there that's stopping her from feeling that way.

Ask her if she would join you in creating that romantic love. Then leave it the MB counselors and the program. Your focus is on what you need to do for her. She will soon do the same for you.

Wordsmith it how you feel you need to but I would definitely approach her from the mindset that she will gain by having YOU do the program along with the counseling.

If she doesn't want to join you I still suggest you do it. It was suggested to me for years and I ignored it. I finally got Mrs. Alias on board and things are way, way better.

I really enjoy listening to the radio program. Have you ever listened?

If you haven't give it a try. It is really amazing to hear how Dr Harley and Joyce not only sell this MB program they live it.

Their R sounds almost foreign as it is something I've never witnessed in all my years. They just click. Way cool.

Have you seen all of these (there are 4)?
Can a Marriage be Saved by One Spouse Part 1 Letter#1

Another good one. Tell us what you think.

Radio Clip of a Husband Wanting to Save the Marriage

Hey Guys - thanks for the input. MrAlias, you sure are astute with your insights. You're right, I don't really apply all the concepts all the time, although I am very familiar with them. I've really studied this MB program quite extensively over the past few years.

My problem, I suppose, is losing the will. I was fervently 'doing' everything and that was while she was still very foggy, but I was relentless. Over the period of about 18 months, I lost strength and it became very difficult to the point where I was back in withdrawl and teeter on that today. When I see her trying it gives me hope and I'm definitely still the only that champions MB (I ordered LB again the other day - hard copy) and I really would like to do phone counseling. However......we're in a bit of a financial spot at the moment and that would be very tough to swing......


I have also listened to the radio program several times, although it isn't easily accessible.

Just keep in mind that the counseling is far cheaper than a D. A little investment in your M could return a large ROI given the alternative.

The one thing that is great about the counseling is that it gives the both of you practical action-oriented steps (specific assignments) to take in changing your daily behaviors. Things that aren�t directly quoted in the book because the counselor tailors your steps to the needs of your M. It will put you and, hopefully, your W into action. For you the feelings will follow the actions so long as you are both thorough in trying the new behaviors.

It's easy to slack off when you�re going it alone especially when you're teetering or withdrawn ... BTDT. However , my withdrawal disappeared very quickly once my W and I started counseling as a result of the actions we were taking. I felt reinvigorated.

Reading/learning is helpful but having that coach takes it to a whole new level. It frees you from being the pain in her side �telling� her what to do. It frees you up to focus ENTIRELY on YOUR part. You worry about your side of the street.

The counselor gives you your assignments and you do them. You don�t instruct your W anymore. That is the role of the coach. If your W doesn�t do the work the counselor will address that. In your individual sessions with your coach you get to discuss what you�ve done to keep the MB ball rolling and what you see her doing.


Before her and I did the program together that�s where I was. We�d be OK for awhile because she�d make some small effort, but we�d just end up right back in that same place. There was never any agreement on where we were trying to go. Something as simple as having a common goal, both of you saying �I want to do what it takes to have a loving, romantic marriage� makes all the difference in the world. The counseling starts there. �OK. So you have this goal. Here are the things you need to do to achieve it.�. Do you think you could get your W to agree to that goal? My W would give it lip service. The counseling kept her accountable to the goal.

The biggest thing I learned in counseling is how to bring positive statements to the R to get the results I�d like. No more negative speak, telling her what she wasn�t doing right but rather simply stating what I would like. I call them the IWLIIs (I Would Love It Ifs). Even when it comes to expressing her LBs � positive corrective statements. Instead of saying �Here is something that you do that I don�t like� I say �I would love it if we could ��.

Sorry for the full court press on the counseling but I�m the poster child for what happens when you simply try to educate yourself, apply what you�ve read by yourself and without the help of an MB expert. The counseling takes the battle out of it. It orients you as a team with specific actions.

No need to be sorry. I'd like to do it. Good explanation and I've championed that to her on several occassions, to a less than ethusiastic response. I'm quite sure it would help.

I'll broach it again and see what happens.