Awesome :-)

Bolded to comment... Less is more! And to note already your wife is beginning to melt. Just give it some time to sink in.

MNG

I am a Christian follower of Jesus. We had a men's group kickoff this weekend and our Pastor said there are things we need to share as men and that he hoped we could be support for each other. Well it took the whole drive home, but I texted the guy I was sitting with and he called me back and I could barely talk without losing it, but He told me to get back up to the church and he met with me there and listened and prayed and read from the Bible and offered to help me mostly with the spiritual side of things and my walk with god, suggesting I get one or two others for support with my wife and kids.
he suggested the Love Dare book (which I had and I started reading)

I read his needs her needs and we took a class at our old church which led to the other thread you mentioned so she's not big on reading or classes or books or following a program. I would need to tread lightly suggesting anything because I would be viewed as pushing my ideas on her

DS12 is one of the reasons that we have to do this. He was also the reason we sent DD19's BF on his way.

Wait...maybe I explained how it went down incorrectly. I was just thinking to myself that it was a bit harsh, I didn't say that to her or discuss it when DD19 was around. I think I just asked her if there were any exceptions she felt were reasonable for us to pay for such as the counseling or psychiatrist appointments to make sure she kept going. I don't think I wasn't respecting her feelings, nor do I think that POJA is me doing everything my wife wants to do without discussion or agreement.

DD23 doesn't live with us, she has been living with a Boyfriend for the past year+ and recently with my MIL, but we are following the same 30 day timetable to cut off her support (cell phone, car insurance, loans for gas, copays) this just after we forgave $4500 worth of loans from the past 2 years that we realized we weren't getting back. We forgave this and then a week later she came crying saying her BF kicked her out for stealing and abusing his Xanex and we checked her into the Hospital and she was inpatient for a few days and outpatient for 2 weeks. We delayed the cutoff so as to not pile on, but it's time.

Its great to hear you have opened yourself up to suggestions and help here, at church and also to work with your wife's doctor.

About the adult kids leaving stuff behind. It seems especially with my daughter anyway, the leaving belongings behind is a bit like an animal marking territory. Thus I learned to operate in alpha mode and am making sure we clear out everything. I am talking about her adult stuff.

Part of my husband and mine reorganization involves clearing out an attic where we kept childhood momentos. ie cute grade school art projects and their own stories and so on. I actually look at this stuff very differently. I am finding it enjoyable to review there formative years and it give me better perspective to reconnect with them at a more enjoyable time frame. I'm not stuck there at all. I plan to take the stuff and 'repackage it' ie a art portfolio book or scan special pieces to frame or create books. I know our grandchildren will enjoy seeing their parents stuff in a positive light. Shows a window into their soul which can get lost to them while they are busy figuring things out as adults.

A bible verse that helps me is about how we are not to throw our pearls of a great price in with pigs to trample. Your reference to how your daughter disrespects your home and does not appreciate the costs of the property damages applies. I have experienced this too. Back to boundaries and extra ordinary precautions.

One day at a time. The space you are in will take a long time to improve because there are so many factors out of whack. REview the website, read Dr Harleys books over and over, listen to the radio program. Listen to the program in your wife's presence without saying anything or expecting anything. Do it for your own wits. But do something everyday to instill this stuff for yourself. Frankly I made the mistake to 'try' or read about other marriage enrichment programs. I did this because my husband was being super stubborn and non committal. I got the idea I just needed to find the right one for us. I spun my wheels along time while my husband operated as usual. Just stick to the MB program and you'll have more clarity.

That sounds perfect for how we feel. Like we are taken for granted and don't have to be treated with respect.

I am listening to the radio program some or all of my commute (50 min each way) The other time I'm either praying or listening to music or thinking things through. I have put most other things on the back burner.

I think one of the things I'm not sure about is how or if I should talk to her when she's so walled off. It's hard to have a primarily one sided conversation and I don't want it to always be about the problems with the kids. Last night I felt like I was being hurried along, something like we were talking and she (nicely) said something like why don't you go fix yourself something to eat. I felt like she was saying go away and keep yourself busy.

She said she wasnt feeling much different than when she was taking the patch SSRI, but it's only been a few days.

I guess not knowing where or what she even views as going on with her is the part I have trouble with - I don't know how she feels about me I guess is what im saying and I'm not sure if asking her is a good idea (plus i'm scared at the answer...probably)

I did take advantage of free counseling at work. It was a 2 hr intake session and when we were done he wants me to come back - to finish the intake . He seemed pretty concerned about my wife and even gave me some info on an intensive outpatient program locally. One thing I have no idea how to bring up is suggesting that she needs counseling or how I would convince her to go. I just feel like it would end up being a love buster. His suggestion was to get her to come in on the issue of the stress with the kids and then he would turn the conversation to her issues. I'm a little nervous about that but maybe.

I spent 2 hrs on the phone with a Christian friend that has gone through a lot of the same issues with family members living at home/support and even recently had to evict his Mom! He mostly listened and gave me some practical tips on that. His thoughts on my wife and I were to work on her mental health issues. I found out last night her appt is not for 3 more weeks with the phychiatrist.

I have something set up with our pastor for me. He's really good about cutting through the mess to give practical suggestions. This is tomorrow.

Another thought I had (she even said she considered it on her own) was maybe it would be good for her to go back on the medicine she had that worked for the last 10 years at least till we get through the next 6 months or so and then depending on how things are, then look into trying something else maybe with a Dr that is easier to get a hold of and having us all involved in the decision and monitoring the effectiveness.

Update. Things are a little better overall, but the emotional anxiety is weighing very heavy on me and I feel like a zombie at times. I did discover something that causes problems at times between my wife and I but not sure how to address it.

First, I did get a chance to sit down with my wife and talk about how things were going for her and just sort of a general state of things. She has been off all medications for the past 2 weeks or so. We sat together on the couch and I don't remember how we started, but she explained how she was feeling frustrated that this process of looking for another medicine has taken almost a year (June) and that she just wants her life back. She still wants to try mood stabilizers for a possible diagnosis of bipolar2 that was mentioned at her last appointment. I feel like so many of our problems would disappear if she went back on the old medicine. She did say that she considered that. I do find it ironic that the sexual side effect was the main reason for wanting to try something new and here we are now with no SF going on...

I suggested the following things:
That we start spending more time together at least just talking, that I wanted to at least be able to come home and have a conversation about our days or just talk vs her reading and me staring into space not wanting to interrupt. I asked about her doing some of her normal routine around the house and She seemed to recognize things that she should be doing, but says she can't do them. She said she feels like she should be doing more to help her Mom who is widowed and lives in the same community as us, but she can't stand being around her for long.

On the issue of her and I she said the following:
She doesn't want to lie to me and tell me everything is fine. She said she isn't comfortable with affection and part of it she said was that if she does anything affectionate, that I would be expecting more (SF) and that even the last few times with SF, she has really tried to want to participate, but it's difficult. I would agree with the last few times, where it seemed more out of duty or obligation than love.
She said she isn't comfortable with physical affection from anyone even the kids, that she just feels numb or without emotion.

I suggested doing some things together - working out, bike riding, running, walking, hiking, shopping, bowling, which she seemed open to the idea of, but not very confidently. I suggested we go away for the weekend and she said that sounded like fun. I did ask about the reading and why it makes her happy and she did say something about that it's like watching TV or a movie and maybe she liked it because the characters in the books did have feelings.

This past weekend we did get away - got there late Friday, slept in sat, went to eat lunch at a nice place, spent the day at the outlet stores other shopping that she likes. Conversation was pretty good even with the ipad there in the car. We held hands and I thought things were good.
Came home with some pizza and leftover food. Sat by the fire, kinda cozy, she read the iPad, I read a magazine and prayed a few times to myself. I rubbed her feet, thought things were going good and then... Nothing We went to bed with plans to work out at gym next morning, get breakfast then head home for a family gettogether. I think I started her off grumpy. I woke her up with a cup of coffee @ 9:30 (she wanted to sleep in - didn't know) and we didn't work out or walk, we had a quick breakfast and mostly silent (her reading) ride home. Slightly cold all day, but "nothing's wrong"

Later that night I DID find out what was wrong. She said that I was "antsy" in the morning before we left and she felt like I was wanting her to entertain me and felt like there was some type of tension all day with me and that I kept looking at her, etc. This caused her to be cold, irritated and grouchy toward me.

I think I need some help with this, because it's happened before - I either get my hopes up that something (SF) might happen OR just start to get sad that I feel like I'm being as nice and affectionate and considerate as I can be and it's totally ignored by her as if I was doing nothing. It physically hurts my heart and It must show or come though to her in the way that I act. Then she interprets that as me being nasty/grumpy/having an attitude and then in turn is mad at me...

It's frustrating to me because it feels like I am neglected, get hurt/upset by it and then she's mad at me for being upset!
The other harder option is for me to bury my feelings of hurt/sadness and pretend things are OK, just to get indifference in return. Is not making her mad worth me stuffing the emotions and pretending things are fine?

She did fix dinner last night for the first time in a month maybe? that was a surprise. Psych appointment is in a week. She said she was open to counselling but hasn't made any effort. We have a marriage class at church that I am going to but she isnt interested in any class. I havent even told her what it was about.

Both daughters have jobs! We sat down with DD19 and got an update on what progress she has made toward moving out and taking responsibility for things and talked to DD23 and she is starting to look for car insurance etc. Things are moving somewhat. DS12 is doing OK but my wife and him keep getting in arguments - I think because she is short tempered and impatient with him

So I forgot to pay the water bill - the water got turned off. I paid the bill online within 20 minutes and scheduled to turn it back on. Wife called me and wasn't happy.

So I called DS12 and asked if the water was back on and he said that it was and was only off for maybe 2 hours. I do have a bunch of 2 litre bottles with fresh water in them at home, just for whatever, so it's not a hot shower, but it's water.

So then he proceeds to tell me she's really mad and said stuff to him like I ruined her credit before and I'm a good person but I am not reliable.

You know I realize I messed up, but There are a million things going on. I feel like I barely am motivated to get out of bed in the morning - I'm typing this at work where everyone has been gone for an hour and I'm still here. The extent of her involvement in the finances has been to log on and transfer $200 from savings once in the last 6 months because the checking account didn't have an available balance for her to buy books.

I feel like all the good things I do don't even come across her radar and then as soon as I do something wrong it's like the end of the world.

You aren't going to turn this ship around in two weeks. Look at the big picture; you really are making great progress working together to get those two cuckoos out of the nest. Keep your eye on the things that matter.

Maybe time to do some negotiating over the bill paying? Can you hand this chore over to her? Say that you need her help. Sometimes less is more . .

I'm sorry this is so hard. Take care of yourself. I had wondered if your wife was sick with bipolar too. (reading 16 hours per day) Hopefully you will be able to get more involved and give input into her care or find a doctor w/ more integrative approach. You can't shoulder everything because the system is broken. The side effect issue of sexual dysfunction is annoying. Some docs are giving women testosterone along with a anti-depressent that works well.

Great to hear the kids are progressively moving forward. And obviously from your wife's perspective she does not have the capacity to give back to you right now and you have to diminish expectations. Right now you are in more of a caregiver role. Hopefully your pastor can give you validations while you await help from the medical side. Stay away from outside opposite sex relationships.

Dear Xcuseme, I am no expert and just learning myself. I just wanted to encourage you to keep the faith. I pray God gives you a peace that surpasses all understanding
and that he will keep you during the trials involving the SF. May you be able to continue to love her without expecting anything in the SF area...........and then out of no where.......... your wife's affection increasingly returns to you. As a few have already noted, things are turning around: "Do not despise small beginnings." I am praying and hoping for the best. Glad you have a great support system with the men's group.

Have you and your wife considered natural remedies like food changes and herbal supplements to help with the disorder?

After your update, I was going to say "it is clear that your wife is depressed." Then I looked at your original post where you said your wife is depressed. I think this is a medical issue...she is not taking medication as she wants to find a better one...but since she is depressed she has low motivation/action so it takes awhile to make an appt or do Anything....How about making the appointment for her?

Thanks - I know I'm not going to get quick results.
The bill paying has some history to it. She felt like I wasn't involved with the finances and left it all to her to deal with and I just went along "happy go lucky" not worrying about it. So a year and a half ago she just stopped. I'm not sure if she even told me. I think there is room to make some progress here with her. We have long talked about making and sticking to a budget. I think it's time I develop something to get us back on track. I think it will help with her view of me as responsible and taking the initiative and it's all stuff I can do on my own. I can ask her for help and input and maybe after getting organized ask her to do more if she wants.
Thank You this is very succinct but helpful. I'm trying to stay healthy, eat healthy and trying to get back to working out and maybe running or bike riding. (I may have lost a few pounds. Wife seems like she might be interested also, but is having trouble with the motivation part. Said she did feel better after exercising. I don't need her to look any better, but it probably wouldn't hurt to get back to being a little more buff myself. She did say some shirt I tried on didn't look good, but kept saying it was the shirt, not me. I'll play the safe side and get in shape. Maybe seeing me will motivate her - I just want time together.

We went to her Dr's visit yesterday, she had missed one so it was over 60 days between visits. I was able to talk about how I felt my wife was doing as well as relate some things my DS12 observed. Wife understood that I wasn't bringing anything I said up as a complaint or for my own benefit and was appreciative. She took a question answer test rating how she felt and scored a 44. I think this is the same test: http://psychcentral.com/cgi-bin/depression-quiz.cgi - I just scored a 41 (moderate to severe depression - yikes)
The Dr said he wants to get her under 10 on that scale. He then showed her a detailed description of Bipolar 2 and she felt like it fit her and the Dr agreed. He said that often people with Bipolar 2 don't respond to anti-depressents or get worse. She was certainly worse on the Emsam patch that she has been off of for 3 weeks now. She even said she was thinking about home decorating, the thing she lost interest in the past few months. I can only hope and pray interest in her Husband is coming next

Anyway, he prescribed Lithium. She has it but hasn't started the prescription, but she texted me earlier to say she was waiting until tomorrow to start taking it because she took something for a headache and read that you shouldn't mix the two.. I made sure she knew I wasn't being pushy and that it was fine.
I do have diminished expectations - She actually told me yesterday after the appointment that I just had to hang in there until she got the medicines worked out. Again stating that she's gotten this far with trying to find something better. I just hope the damage to us is worth it or only short term. She said there was nothing she could complain about and nothing I was doing differently and she thought her lack of feelings toward me were because of the medicine change.

The one thing she did mention about SF and affection was 1. She was afraid any affection would lead to my expecting more 2. She felt like she couldn't do SF without the emotional feelings. I think we are over 60 days, probably the longest since 23 years ago. I tried to ask how she was able to accept other affection from me that physically felt good like a long back/neck rub, massage and how that is different and she just said it wasn't sexual so no different than going to a spa, not requiring emotional feelings.

The scariest thing she said and I want to get some clarity on it was after she was telling me my options were to wait it out (medicine search) or give up. She said something to the effect of she felt like would be able to just walk away from our marriage. I think she meant if I wanted to throw in the towel, she wouldn't put up a fight, but it shook me up. a lot. There was however a positive thing she said - she said if I wanted to go to marriage counseling she would be willing, to wherever I wanted to go at least while we are sorting out this medication.

I had a few opposite sex friends a few years ago and I have let those friendships lapse much a result of reading here. I have made new or strengthened guy friendships more recently and have support at church. Oh and I am staying away - I am focused on my wife, but I'm sure the enemy of our souls knows that a spouse not getting their needs met at all is vulnerable to temptation.

Thanks - your encouragement means a lot. The Men's group and the Pastor have been a big help. I havent looked into food changes or supplements. I'm not sure where to start. I think we eat pretty good. More variety would probably be better.

I agree it's been tough to get things moving. I am trying to be more involved - we went yesterday to the appointment together as I mentioned above. The process is frustrating and slow.

So it�s been a week and a half since the medicine change to lithium. There have been a few positive changes and there is still no movement in the SF area. I still feel like anything that I do positive seems to just fall short and anything negative becomes a really big deal.
On the medicine side she did a week with � pills and just the other day started a full pill.
Positive:
- She got out of the house � did some of her usual window shopping she used to enjoy at places like HomeGoods, Marshals, stuff like that. She did take the tablet with her which I thought was odd, how do you read and shop, but she explained that she reads in the car between stores or takes breaks to read. This is interesting to me and shows up again later.
-She has been really enjoying a few of these books, laughing hysterically. She has started a few conversations with me about the stories and seems to enjoy talking about them. I listen and try to be interested. Some of the stuff is funny.
She has cooked dinner a few times and has been doing the dishes. The other night I came home and she was in the process of a SUPER thorough job of cleaning the refrigerator from top to bottom. She had removed the shelves and disassembled them and soaked them. The thing I found interesting was that she would clean for a few minutes and then go back and read for a few minutes and kept repeating that until the cleaning was done.
I was remembering back to before she switched medicines, she had a whole ritual that she would do for cleaning. No one could ever do it for her because her standards were so high. At the beginning of the summer she was starting to get frustrated with DD19 not picking up after the kids and feeling like her cleaning was constantly undermined by them. She started dealing with it by just not cleaning and �hiding� in her room. This is when she started reading and then soon after switched medicines.

We finally finished getting DD23 off our finances, sold her the car and cancelled her phone. So that is one down, one to go.
DD19 on the other hand is not being very cooperative � we gave her the 30 day eviction notice 30 days ago and now she�s saying that we have to go to court to get her out. We did cancel her cell phone. The conflict came when my wife and I went to the courthouse. We decided to go on Good Friday (they were open). The day prior, I went to see the marriage counselor that a guy from church recommended by myself. My plan was to come home and see if my wife wanted to go to the courthouse, but I never mentioned it since I wasn�t sure if there would be enough time. I got home and she was out at the grocery store. When we went on Friday the in-house lawyers were not in the office.
My wife blamed me for this and was irritated from that point on and it even carried over until the next morning where she was giving me a hard time for snoring. I think she was specifically irritated that when I wake up, I�m not immediately alert and tend to be disoriented and question what I�m being woken up for. She just wants me to turn over and not ask �what�s wrong?� The thing is, our sleep cycles are soo messed up lately with her reading. We used to not have sleep issues � she would fall asleep first (usually snore) and then I would fall asleep afterwards. Now she is up all hours reading and gets irritated if I can�t fall asleep. She even got irritated with me at church on Easter for sitting too close to her.

Update: I started writing this last week and never got to posting it. Since then there have been a few positive changes except for SF. She is on a full pill of the lithium, not halves. We went to church 2 weeks in a row and she let me put my arm around her. She has been making dinner a lot even to the point where she decided not to make something the other night because the fridge was full of leftovers. A number of the dinners were new things she has never made before. Sleep is better, I think the last few nights she has gone to bed earlier than me. She has been doing some laundry and I have as well.

We tried to get away last weekend but I was sick. I have been trying to finish the redo of our bedroom, but a few problems came up. Those are fixed and she approved the paint colors.

She even mentioned wanting to go camping and has started talking about landscaping. I�m not sure about the landscaping since she has big ideas and we don�t have the budget since she stopped working.

I went for a bike ride the other day and after I got back she asked how it went and said that she would go with me once I got back in shape (we have a tandem) since she needs me to take up the slack for her not being in shape yet.

My problem is the lack of affection/SF is killing me inside!! I think about sex with my wife probably on average 2-3 times an hour maybe when I am at work and probably 10 times an hour when I am around her. I am not bugging her about it or talking about it at all. Especially since she stated that even doing anything she is worried I will expect more. I worry about if or when I will just stop loving her.

I went twice to a counselor recommended by a friend at church. She is seeing me with my wife this week. One thing the counselor did point out was a bit of an obsessive compulsive theme to some of the stuff my wife does. Her Mom has a little of that and her Brother especially and even my Son. The counselor kept pointing out examples as I was talking. It did make me think about how my wife has stopped her normal routines and replaced them with reading. Anyway I think I am looking forward to the counseling this week.

I think if you get DD19 out, things MAY improve a bit.

I agree with KR and would say that you are making great progress. OCD is a coping mechanism that she is using to soothe herself. Focus on POJAing a solution to DD19. This is going to be the keys to the kingdom.

Did you ever e-mail the Harleys?

This makes a lot of sense, especially since it all ramped up once she switched off the medicine in June that was working. If the medicine was no longer helping her cope, then something needed to fill that void.
I think I know this, but it's one of the harder things to get moving. My wife and I agree that our lives and DS12's lives would be better with DD19 living somewhere else with her 2 kids. That part is easy. Where it get's tough is the Grandkids and her financial situation. She makes $200 a week maybe and has to pay for daycare. The kids Dad is being a jerk because she filed for child support and has stopped giving her any money saying the court will have to force him to pay.

I know finding a solution will make my wife feel better. She has even talked about moving DS12 into DD19's room, converting his room to a spare room and the Gkids room into an office. That and having her house "back"

DD19 has said she will just go across the street to her Grandmothers if we push her, but Grandmom really doesn't have the room or desire for them to be there AND while it's better than them living here, they will still be over all the time and Grandmom will be asking my wife for help and add back the stress we are trying to avoid.

I guess I'm just talking out loud, but I wish we could afford a little help with rent or something to get her started.. It would be worth it, but I would have to get a second job. We are already having trouble with the money for things our house and cars need. Actually my wife won't have a car since she is giving it to DD19.

No, but I have been listening every day. I think I will start writing something up. Thanks for the reminder.

One thing to remember is the Three States of Mind in Marriage.
Your wife was in Withdrawal.
It would seem that on her new medication she is receptive to you meeting some of her ENs.
So now she is in Conflict.
This is progress, but hard to see from the outside.
Think of the Love Bank: If her balance was -400 and you have been putting in 50 love units a week, it will take 8 weeks for her to get to a positive balance where she falls in love (Intimacy).
To you, it seems like you are making deposits and nothing is happening. It is, but you must be patient.
Her interacting with you and doing SOMETHING indicates great progress!
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3600_state.html

I need to re-read that section again - I think you are right. I agree it's harder to see from my perspective, but now that I try to step back and think about it see it also.

While individually they are not earth shattering (to most people), there were a number of positive things in the past day even.
1. When I got home last night from Church (marriage class by myself) She was talkative about her day
2. She made a re-assuring nice gesture/words when I misunderstood something she said and felt she was giving me a hard time
3. Later downstairs SHE kissed ME for no reason - more than a peck, but less than 1 second. It may not seem like much or I'm making too much of it, but this has not happened in 4 months! It felt like a drug. Maybe there's something wrong with me, but I almost broke down emotionally after she left and started crying. It was just a bit overwhelming. Even writing it is emotional. man.. OK, I'm good.
4. This morning she called me to talk (vent) about her morning with DD19 and the Gkids. I mostly just listened and she said she felt better afterwards.

I do have a few opportunities to work with as far as RC and doing things she wants me to do or is willing to do:
1. Bike riding - I need to go a few more times myself and the warmer weather will help her go
2. Camping - she suggested we go. This is something I would really like to do, so we can start planning for that soon
3. Hiking - day hike/picnic anytime or combine with camping
4. working on the house - even nights I have done something, I still try to show her my consistency even if i only do a small task.
5. Landscaping - we might not be able to afford a big project, but I can certainly clean up and do some basic stuff. *idea* she has wanted to do the edging on the overgrown sidewalks - no cost, just hard work, but I think it would make her happy.
6. DD19 - I suggested we regroup and come up with a plan. I suggested making her spend 30 minutes with us in the evening giving us and update on he progress toward moving out. Wife thought it would be a good idea also.
7. weekend trip to family vacation place, maybe this weekend.

We see the marriage counselor together for the first time Friday.