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I do not recall this article being discussed. What are your thoughts after reading the article?
Caring for Children Means Caring for Each Other
Willard F. Harley, Jr., Ph.D.
Children desperately need parents who stay married to each other, and love each other. Their future depends on it. Yet, their parents are very likely to lose their love for each other after they arrive, because they forget why they married. They didn't marry to raise children -- they married to meet each other's intimate emotional needs. And the presence of children tends to make them think that they don't have time and energy to meet those needs anymore. When that happens, they lose their primary motive to be married -- their love for each other.
A man and woman usually decide to marry because they have formed a very successful romantic relationship -- they are in love with each other and are meeting each other's intimate emotional needs. They want to make that romantic relationship last a lifetime, so they marry. At the time, they are optimistic about keeping their love for each other alive, and they don't expect anything to threaten that love -- least of all, children. But if they were to understand how their love was created, and how it is sustained, they would immediately see why children are such a risk.
The two essential ingredients of a romantic relationship -- being in love and meeting intimate emotional needs -- are inseparable. A man and woman love each other because they meet each other's intimate emotional needs, and they meet each other's intimate emotional needs because they love each other. If either one of those factors suffers, the other suffers as well. That's why it's relatively difficult to keep a romantic relationship on track -- it's very fragile.
If living conditions make the meeting of intimate emotional needs more difficult or even impossible to provide, the love a couple has for each other is at risk. They usually don't see their loss of love coming, because they think their love is based on chemistry (they are made for each other) or their willingness to be in love (their love for each other is a decision) -- factors they think guarantee a lifetime of love. But what really sustains love in marriage is neither of those. It is their effectiveness in meeting each other's intimate emotional needs.
Intimate emotional needs can only be met when a couple are able to give each other their undivided attention, and when children become part of their lives, they lose the privacy that undivided attention requires. Job requirements that are considered necessary to support children can also take undivided attention away from couples. The pressure of family life, with so many wants and limited available resources, is yet another factor that makes undivided attention elusive.
When opportunity for undivided attention is taken from a couple, the meeting of intimate emotional needs is no longer possible. And when the meeting of intimate emotional needs is no longer possible, the love a man and woman have for each other withers and dies. And when their love for each other is gone, the risk of divorce is extremely high.
Couples marry because they think their romantic relationship will continue throughout their lives. And it would, if they were to continue meeting each other's intimate emotional needs. But as soon as their children arrive, there is a very high likelihood that their romantic relationship will end, because they cannot find time to give each other undivided attention. And with the end of their romantic relationship, their marriage is at risk.
Children do not require parent's attention 24 hours a day. Nor do they suffer when parents are giving each other their undivided attention. It's not the child's fault that parents neglect each other when children arrive -- it's the parent's fault when they decide that their children need so much of their time, they have not time left for each other. But the truth is that couples have time for both their children and each other, if they schedule their time wisely.
The solution to this problem in marriage is remarkably simple. It doesn't require entirely new skills, or a remaking of a couple's ability to care for each other. All it takes is going back to what it was that created the love a couple has for each other in the first place -- heartfelt affection, intimate conversation, recreational companionship, and sexual fulfillment. These intimate emotional needs, above all else, must be met in marriage if a romantic relationship is to be sustained.
As long as a husband and wife take the time to meet these needs for each other every week of their lives, they will never lose the passion that they had the moment they were married. But it takes time to meet these needs, and it takes privacy. They cannot be met with children running around your feet. Couples rarely understand this important fact.
If I were to give you $1,000,000 to stay in love for 10 years after your children arrived, and I had a fool-proof way of determining if you were actually in love, how would you make sure you had the money at the end of the ten years?
Even if you had never read anything I've written on the subject, I'm sure you would begin by carving time out of every week to make sure you met each other's emotional needs. Because you already know that it would greatly increase the chances of your being in love with each other after 10 years. You already know how your love for each other was created -- you gave each other your undivided attention when you were dating. You were always affectionate with each other; you would talk to each other the way lovers talk, you would spend your recreational time together, and you were both sexually attracted to each other, and responded to that attraction.
If $1,000,000 was conditional on your being in love after 10 years with children, you would create a plan that would give you enough privacy, and enough time, to stay emotionally connected throughout those ten years.
Now let me tell you something that may not have occurred to you.
If you are not in love with each other after 10 years with children, you are very likely to lose $1,000,000 during the rest of your life in the form of costs incurred due to divorce. The cost of a lifetime of lost income, lost savings and investments, lost health, lost support from an extended family, and the cost of the divorce itself is just the beginning of the losses that can be enumerated by those who have figured these things out (Linda Waite and Maggie Gallagher, The Case for Marriage, pp 110-125).
In other words, you will have about $1,000,000 more to spend than you would have had, if you can simply stay married for the rest of your lives. And the only way to guarantee that your lives will be spent together is to guarantee your love for each other.
But the economic advantage of a lifelong marriage is not nearly as important as the positive effect it has on children. The greatest contribution that parents can make to their children's happiness and success is to love each other for life. If parents love their children, and want the best for their children, they must do everything possible to preserve their romantic relationship. That means caring for each other must be their highest priority -- they must meet each other's intimate emotional needs. It's not a choice between caring for each other and caring for children. The reality is that if you want to truly care for your children, you must care for each other.
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To be honest, the reason I posted this article is The Duggar Family (as seen on TV). I wonder how they manage it all. As long as a husband and wife take the time to meet these needs for each other every week of their lives, they will never lose the passion that they had the moment they were married. But it takes time to meet these needs, and it takes privacy. They cannot be met with children running around your feet. Couples rarely understand this important fact.
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In all honesty, the Duggars probably don't manage it all.
I know quite a few large families (several of whom have adopted numerous children with special needs) and they don't get anywhere near the recommended amount of UA time. Of course, they likely don't even know about MB or the concept of UA time in the first place. Many of them admit they are doing good if they manage to go out with their spouses on a date once or twice a year. Their lives revolve almost entirely around their children.
They do seem happy enough, at least from all outward appearances. They say they are in love with their spouses, in spite of the fact that they get almost no UA time as it would be defined by Dr. Harley. I'm not sure how they manage this, honestly. I don't know any of them personally, but I have been following their blogs for a number of years. They all seem to be happier in their marriages than I currently am in my own, in spite of the fact that my H and I get much more UA time than they do.
I admit it makes no sense. I've often wondered how families like this manage to maintain a healthy, happy marriage while still caring for such large and demanding families.
Me: BS/FWW: 48 BS/WH: 50 DS: 30, 27, 25 DD: 28 OC: 10 BH and I are raising my OC together.
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That is what was so interesting about posting here and on my homeschool board. I did a poll and the majority of them went out a couple of times a year max. And most of them said their marriages were very happy. They all told me to put on my big girl panties and realize how lucky I was.
I've chosen the MB path as much as I can, but even when I bring it up in real life people think I'm nuts. I keep reading here. I keep trying to implement the principles, but it is a bit like a salmon swimming upstream.
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That is what was so interesting about posting here and on my homeschool board. I did a poll and the majority of them went out a couple of times a year max. And most of them said their marriages were very happy. They all told me to put on my big girl panties and realize how lucky I was.
I've chosen the MB path as much as I can, but even when I bring it up in real life people think I'm nuts. I keep reading here. I keep trying to implement the principles, but it is a bit like a salmon swimming upstream. This is what I get from everyone in real life as well. Most people I know think I'm absolutely nuts for even trying to get in one date night a week. They think I'm terribly selfish and unrealistic, and this is from my own family. It makes it kind of difficult to rely on them for help with baby sitting, and since we don't have enough money to hire a baby sitter 3 or 4 times a week, it is a constant struggle. We do what we can. My H and I go out together on dates more than any other married couple I have ever known in real life, but we definitely don't get 15 hours out of the house alone together every single week. I don't even bring that up to anyone I know anymore. Whenever I did, they just looked at me like I was insane.
Me: BS/FWW: 48 BS/WH: 50 DS: 30, 27, 25 DD: 28 OC: 10 BH and I are raising my OC together.
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Welcome to my world!!!!! We are also going on dates much more often and if we have a bad week, hubby will mention it! But yes it sure would be nice if we had some like minded people around us. That is what was so interesting about posting here and on my homeschool board. I did a poll and the majority of them went out a couple of times a year max. And most of them said their marriages were very happy. They all told me to put on my big girl panties and realize how lucky I was.
I've chosen the MB path as much as I can, but even when I bring it up in real life people think I'm nuts. I keep reading here. I keep trying to implement the principles, but it is a bit like a salmon swimming upstream. This is what I get from everyone in real life as well. Most people I know think I'm absolutely nuts for even trying to get in one date night a week. They think I'm terribly selfish and unrealistic, and this is from my own family. It makes it kind of difficult to rely on them for help with baby sitting, and since we don't have enough money to hire a baby sitter 3 or 4 times a week, it is a constant struggle. We do what we can. My H and I go out together on dates more than any other married couple I have ever known in real life, but we definitely don't get 15 hours out of the house alone together every single week. I don't even bring that up to anyone I know anymore. Whenever I did, they just looked at me like I was insane.
Last edited by tiredwife45; 03/25/13 05:14 PM.
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Welcome to my world!!!!! We are also going on dates much more often and if we have a bad week, hubby will mention it! But yes it sure would be nice if we had some like minded people around us.[life people think I'm nuts. I keep reading here. I keep trying to implement the principles, but it is a bit like a salmon swimming upstream. The salmon analogy is quite appropriate. Unfortunately, most of the world doesn't remotely understand the concept of UA time and its importance in maintaining romance in a marriage. Unfortunately for me, my H also thinks 15 hours a week out of the house alone when you have young children is simply unrealistic and impossible. We have our one date night a week, but that's about the most I can hope for. And most of the time, I have to take the lead in arranging that. Sometimes, if I complain enough, he will arrange for a sitter, but I would say it is left up to me 90% of the time. It's hard to maintain the energy to continue putting forth the effort when I feel as though I am literally the only person in my life who cares about any of this.
Me: BS/FWW: 48 BS/WH: 50 DS: 30, 27, 25 DD: 28 OC: 10 BH and I are raising my OC together.
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That is what was so interesting about posting here and on my homeschool board. I did a poll and the majority of them went out a couple of times a year max. And most of them said their marriages were very happy. They all told me to put on my big girl panties and realize how lucky I was.
I've chosen the MB path as much as I can, but even when I bring it up in real life people think I'm nuts. I keep reading here. I keep trying to implement the principles, but it is a bit like a salmon swimming upstream. And there is the point; A child-centered marriage is a cultural expectation. It brings to mind a current poster who lives in another country, and whose wife is from that country (my nephew is in the same country). This particular country has a culturally-influenced mental health diagnosis; Retired Husband Syndrome. A wife's life becomes so entwined with her husband working all the time, that she undergoes a massive amount of stress when her husband retires and is actually home. There, they blame a dominant/submissive gender role system for men and women for this change. Given MB language, it would be easily explained as two people with independent lifestyles. Then, suddenly, those independent lifestyles intersect, and it's a carwreck! This would be the same thing that would occur with a child-centered marriage. If children are the core of your marriage... what happens when all of the children are grown and gone... and you are left to relate directly to each other, rather than relating to each other through your children? Another car wreck! It also leaves both spouses extremely vulnerable to outside attention. You can certainly have a "happy" marriage centered around children - but it may be void of romance. Being in love, ROMANTIC LOVE, is what Dr. Harley attributes to being the key element in shifting from not saving marriages to saving marriages. You know what? It isn't just Dr. Harley, either. What Dr. Harley teaches is being confirmed in studies by others who are studying what makes marriages succeed, in contrast to those who previously counseled based upon what makes marriages fail. It shouldn't be surprising! If you ask someone who is divorced what would have made their marriage better, they would likely give you some babble about having more "space" or "independence." Those answers are given by a person who is remembering their marriage from a state of withdrawal and felt "trapped" by unhappiness! Yet, if you were to ask a couple who is in love what they want, you are more likely to have an answer like "to spend every moment with my spouse!" And that quote comes from a pair of psychologists who are NOT Dr. Harley, but confirm exactly what Dr. Harley states! Alright... enough babbling for now...
"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr
"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer
"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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In all honesty, the Duggars probably don't manage it all. Thanks Writer! I feel a little sheepish exposing my distrust (dislike?) of this family. It all looks like show business to me. I just don't buy it.
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You can certainly have a "happy" marriage centered around children - but it may be void of romance. You nailed it.
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In all honesty, the Duggars probably don't manage it all. Thanks Writer! I feel a little sheepish exposing my distrust (dislike?) of this family. It all looks like show business to me. I just don't buy it. I've never even seen the show. But sometimes I've wondered if they had all those kids just so there could be a show. I could be wrong about that. I hope I am. But I know other large families (I am a recovering Mormon after all) and none of them make such a spectacle over the fact that they have a lot of children. None of the large families I know feel the need to broadcast their lives to the world over the television. I'm always skeptical of things like that.
Me: BS/FWW: 48 BS/WH: 50 DS: 30, 27, 25 DD: 28 OC: 10 BH and I are raising my OC together.
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I've never even seen the show. Neither have I. There was a recent flurry of advertisements for their show - about them being in Japan. I felt 'icky' looking at the ads. That sort of public display of children for profit can backfire - big time.
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I've never even seen the show. Neither have I. There was a recent flurry of advertisements for their show - about them being in Japan. I felt 'icky' looking at the ads. That sort of public display of children for profit can backfire - big time. I agree. I also had an issue with the whole "John and Kate Plus Eight" thing, and look how that turned out. Children should not be turned into reality TV programming. There should be a law against that sort of exploitation.
Me: BS/FWW: 48 BS/WH: 50 DS: 30, 27, 25 DD: 28 OC: 10 BH and I are raising my OC together.
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Yes! Exploitation is the word I was searching for.And then, on TV they act happy (all wearing matching khaki's  ) and perpetuate the "child centered marriage" nonsense.
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And there is the point;
If children are the core of your marriage... what happens when all of the children are grown and gone... and you are left to relate directly to each other, rather than relating to each other through your children?
You can certainly have a "happy" marriage centered around children - but it may be void of romance.
Being in love, ROMANTIC LOVE, is what Dr. Harley attributes to being the key element in shifting from not saving marriages to saving marriages. Oh, I completely agree with you. This board told me I was foolish for wanting romance. They told me I was no longer a teenager and I needed to grow up and become an adult and that being married isn't all about flowers and sex.. It is just really hard to swim upstream when EVERYONE in your world ( the church, homeschooling groups, relatives) thinks the idea is nuts. Writen, what has worked for me is to make it as pleasant as possible for him. ( Not at my own expense.) He has enjoyed our dates and it has started to be a habit. Now I am lucky because I don't have to arrange for childcare. ( Our kids are 18, 16 and 11) So we can just go whenever.. So the childcare issue does make it hard. I pray you can find at least one other mb couple near you! Oh, and I've never seen the Dugger show... The thought of that many children makes me batty. Three is all I can handle.. But they are not my life, either. I'm looking forward to our oldest leaving, but my husband is going into mourning.
Last edited by tiredwife45; 03/25/13 06:23 PM.
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In defense of the Duggars...they lived quietly and simply for many many years (up to about 16 kids I think) before TV found them. They live very near me and I know people who have seen them around town for years. They seem genuine and kind.
As far as how far things have gotten out of hand since they got on TV...yeah...I can't imagine living that much of your life on tv would be healthy to a family or a marriage.
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Interestingly enough, Dr. Harley told us at Marriage Builders weekend that he's worked with at least one couple of a similarly-sized family. And of course, the issue is: finding time alone, away from the children, to meet each other's emotional needs. That is the way (the only way) to beat the odds. (Which predict a decreasing chance of marriage succeeding as the number of children grows.) You can't cut corners with this, no matter how many children you have. Assuming a couple is going to make meeting each other's emotional needs an adequate priority, Dr. Harley is all for having more children.  There's been a couple of Marriage Builders radio broadcasts about the large family trend. (As you can guess, the broadcasts focused on the policy of undivided attention!)
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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That is what was so interesting about posting here and on my homeschool board. I did a poll and the majority of them went out a couple of times a year max. And most of them said their marriages were very happy. They all told me to put on my big girl panties and realize how lucky I was. A lot of marriage counseling is not evidence/science based, but is instead informed by eastern religious philosophies that teach that the path to happiness/contentment is through releasing one's attachments and desires. This fits in nicely with a lot of people's detached marriages. There's no scientific evidence that this works, though, in contrast to Dr. Harley's years of evidence that the path to a happy and content marriage is to meet each other's desires, rather than to ignore them. Strangely enough, this philosophy has infiltrated a lot of homeschool+Christian circles I know, even though this philosophy is Buddhism, rather than Christianity. Christianity teaches that man is human, with needs and desires. Even the humanity of Jesus Himself is a cardinal doctrine, for orthodox Christianity at least. I've chosen the MB path as much as I can, but even when I bring it up in real life people think I'm nuts. Most people live in a bad marriage culture! The rate of bad marriages in churches is identical to the rate of bad marriages outside of churches. I imagine the rates are similar for homeschoolers.
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Pep, I love the article you posted. I remember reading it years before we came to the MB forum. For at least that long, I've believed that the path to healthy, happy children starts with parents loving each other and being in love.
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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UA time cured our "problem", which was so basic as just going out for coffee, walks, etc. while leaving our kid behind with a family member.
UA time has taken a hit for us recently (we've just had a new baby and he won't take a bottle) but we're working on getting him to take a cup and we'll be right back to where we were before.
We get our dates, our boys get to enjoy their grandfather's last years with him (he's on his 4th heart surgery, so, it's not going to be long unfortunately), it's win-win.
We're fortunate to have many good role models - several of our elderly neighbours have followed Harley's principle of UA time, probably without knowing what MB is, and not a day goes by without seeing them on romantic dates. We want to be like that.
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