Thanks for the updates, MrNiceGuy! It sounds like you're making great progress and figuring things out.

I applaud you for getting counseling for your anger in addition to MB work. I am also thrilled that you really listened to your wife's perspective about your AO. Overcoming entitlement - the feeling that things "should" be different or more what you want them to be - is one key part of getting rid of abuse. Life is full of disappointments and frustration, and no one owes you anything. That walk in the rain was a very big step in the right direction...and when your father gave you a ride you received it as a gift - which is great! (rather than feeling like, FINALLY).

As to your children, I wonder how they would respond to a good listening ear? Sounds like they have lots of fears and frustrations right now: it's scary for kiddos to be around abuse and marital problems - they need some comfort and empathy. And I know the "episode" might seem like it's way in the past to you, but to them it's still there and so is the fear of their parents' separation. If you and your wife agree, perhaps you could sit them down together and listen/talk to them a bit - soothe their fears, comfort them.

I know you treasure your family - and as you grow more empathetic and see things from others' perspectives - your wife, your son, your daughter - they will begin to feel cared for...and their social and school issues will be much more manageable.

I'm impressed with your progress - great job!

Oh, just a note: an AO 'once in a while' is never acceptable. It's a pattern, not an isolated incident. Please never have another one. I only say this because you mentioned having 'only a few, years apart.'

...and the "I'm not as bad as other men who grab their wives by the throat" stuff - get rid of it. That's classic self-talk to justify your actions. All abusers say, "at least I didn't [fill in the blank]."

You're not a monster, just a guy with a 'life owes me' attitude. That's where the anger comes from. Eliminate the 'tude, and you'll eliminate all anger and abuse from your life.

Thanks Zhamila... your insight is much appreciated.

I feel shamed for my previous actions. That in that state I could not protect my wife from myself. I never thought of myself as having anger issues.. but I do I guess and it does occur with a certain pattern. Just pent up ones that only surface when I am really under alot of stress or when the patern of our fears surface. Usually that pattern revolves around BOTH our fears. NO excuse though.. i dont want that to happen EVER again. I dont want my wife to fear me as my actions trigger her fears big time and vise versa. I want to be a safe haven for my wife. Someone she can lean on. The rock of the house for everyone.

In regards to my children. My daughter is fine .. she has no doubts about her home life. She speaks with a TON of confidence almost as if shes looking down on US as parents lol for our behavior. We talked to her and explained a bit about whats going on and shes all like "yeah dad .. you guys will be fine. I am not worried in the least."

In reagrds to my son. I had gone over some of the anxiety stuff with him at www.anxietybc.com as requested by his school counselor and principal. It helped me also! Its taken the recent events to realize i have not only an anger problem but an anxiety issue also. I always chalked it up to just being "stress" when i felt anxiety. My son never even understood it either until now also (which I am glad hes getting a jump on the recognition part of that so he doesnt let it get control of him).

WHen I got home yesterday after work I asked my son how his day went. He told me that everything was great except this one person in his class was poking him over and over again. This same person does this on a regular basis. HE told me he recognized his anxiety from our talks the night before and his self talk was turning negative.He said he kindly and respectfully asked his peer to please stop poking him becasue it was causing him to feel angry and frusterated and to please give him a moment to calm down. The peer said "ok im sorry" and backed off according to my son. I was so proud! AND told him so also.

My wife had her alone session with the pshycologist/family marital counselor and it seemed to go well .. my wife was all puffed up from crying i guess when she came out but she said it was the best "counselor" experience she has ever had. She had a different energy about her when she came out and in the way she was speaking.

Hopefully we can keep up this recovery momentum. Both my wife and I have alot of healing to do from past hurts so I am doing my best to be patient and supportive while I also learn where my anxiety is triggered. Which is also part of the reason i have never asked to move my thread into recovery area... even though my marriage never had any sort of PA but a mild un recognized event of an EA for both of us. I never felt we have recovered totally.. just kept learning very slowly. Its all coming to a head now. EVERYTHING is coming out. Its scary and good at the same time.

I think we are finally recovering and beginning the healing process from our pasts as we begin to face them head on.

As for our extended family. If they are not part of the solution then they are part of the problem. We will likely have to kick them off the bus since i feel they only want to hear of our problems (so they can gossip and say i told you so) and not our joys (they are never supportive when we share our happy moments with them.. its as if they are jealous since my wife and I are the longest lasting couple in either of our families and NO ONE is married but us.

MNG

What a great update on your son - wow! And you're working on it together, with is fantastic.

Glad your daughter is doing well and feeling secure - I enjoyed hearing her vote of confidence.

Also good to hear that you and your wife seem to be really learning from all of this, turning over all the stones, examining everything. What a wonderful partnership you are building.

Such good news - great job.

I think your insight about your family is spot-on. If they aren't helping you, you may want to surround yourself with pro-marriage people who will support your efforts - that's smart thinking.

Rooting for your family

Bit of an update. Counselling is going great. We had our first session together. The counsellor would get me to ask my wife questions based on our issues and vise versa ... then let us chat it out a bit but he would interupt when he could feel that we were heading down the wrong path duting the convo and point out our flawed thinking to redirect the convo back to a state where we dont feel offended by each other. The way he is approaching the situation is very similar to MB ... we have homework now .. we are supposed to come up with some recreational activites we both enjoy and do one of them and bring our list next time. Great oppertunity to do the recreational inventory (again) and use that as our reference. He is keeping us both accountable in a respectable way.

My wife and I are also re organizing our life in such a manner that we can begin to put more focus on ourselves for a while. Things are beginning to lighten up .. and we are much more in control of our anxieties. Actually to tell you the truth I did not even realize i had an anxiety issue until this year. I see it .. and can now recognize it before i get carried away with it. Since i have taken the lead in that regard its also helped my wife recognize her own anxieties and we are both getting better at putting them to a stop when there is no real danger. Only precieved.

HOWEVER ... I am feeling a bit anxious about my daughter. She brought up to us last night that a boy in her school has asked her out to go ice skating .. She said to me that she wanted my approval of the date so she brought up all the details and answered all my questions. She told me that her peers asked her why she would even bother telling/asking us/me about it and figure she should just go do it and lie about it (they are all dating and not telling their parents) and her reply was because she didn't want to do anything i disapprove of or have to lie since our home operates on truth. I was really proud of her answer (and told her so) to them and rewarded her by telling her yes she can go (she could have just lied and gone behind our backs but instead trusted us enough to come talk about it and seek our approval). I am having a hard time though internally ...

How do you dads cope with letting your daughters go on dates? I mean .. i started dating my wife when she was 15 ... so the thoughts running through my mind are crazy .. my daughter has a MUCH better head on her shoulders than my wife did at her age ... and shes excellent at martial arts and is very capable in stopping whatever she doesnt want to happen lol (she can pretty much beat me up if she SERIOUSLY wanted to lol).. and an All A student. Takes no crap from anyone .. and shoots guns too. (most of her school is intimidated by her but in a good way they leave her alone lol) SO .. There is no reason not to trust her shes never given us a reason not to ... and talks to us all the time about the stuff going on in her life openly and honestly ... But I am still having a hard time with this.

Arghh!!!! >.< lol ...

MNG

My daughter's first dates were group dates, so they aren't off on their own, would your daughter be open to that? And we would meet the boys first, that made it easier too.

Yeah... it is a group date. But still doesnt make it feel any better. Especially since it feels like i was where she is not that long ago.

Probably a protective dad thing ... >.<

MNG,


Dude, you know that teenage girls are just as bad as teenage boys, right?


I know, I know... it doesn't settle your mind on it.

However, a "date" in a fairly public place like an ice rink with scheduled drop-off and pick-up is probably a safe starter.

My own DD15 has been going rollerskating almost every weekend since the 6th grade, and I did the same starting in the 3rd grade.

Speak to the young man. Tell him your expectations and thoughts.

I have told this story before. Our two girls are fifteen months apart, so we had both of them at the dating stage simultaneously. Here was the deal:

When they were about to date a new boy, he had to have a sit-down with NG, in the family room. There I explained that I was entrusting him with a very precious item, and expected it to be returned in the same general condition. To make it crystal clear, I asked him, on that first date, if he were planning to have sexual activity of any kind with my daughter. When he (typically) sputtered "No!", I explained that that was good, because if he DID have sex with my daughter, I would hunt him down, wherever he tried to hide, and render him unable to have sex with any other father's child! I could understand the odd fifteen minute late return, etc, but no one could claim to engage in sexual activity as an accident. So, we would not have serious problems if he just kept this discussion in mind, indefinitely. I also told him if he decided some day, to attempt sexual congress with her, the honorable thing would be to bring it to a discussion with DD, Mrs NG, and myself, and we'd come to an agreement! (Surprisingly, that never happened!)

EVERY new boyfriend, until the girls each left for college...

And my son had his own set of rules.

LOL.. @ NG .. that is hilarious. I thought about having a convo like that, and infact i will at one point. I have to be reasonable also. The way I look at it is ... my parents and my wifes parents tried their hardest to keep my wife and I apart. That only drive us together even more.

One thing my wife mentioned about her teenage years before i came along was her mom forced her to start taking birth control. My wife didnt want to. Once she was on it .. she figured to heck with it .. might as well make use of it so she got together with me! (mind you i was a gentleman and we didnt have any intercourse for well over a year into dating and i respected every boundry she had) .. but became pros at "everything else" lol. SO ... my wife had a discussion with DD15 about that and my daughter does not want birth control and told us if she felt like that may happen she would come ask us about it but until then she plans on not having intercourse for quite some time. My daughter told me at worst she will end up with her first kiss soon.

The bottom line is for us .. if my daughter wanted to do anything sexual with some other teenager she could have already. Shes very open with us and i respect that. She didnt have to tell us anything, but I am proud she feels comfortable to do so. (thats apparent because she tells us what her friends hide from their parents and doesnt want to disrespect us like that). I want to keep those lines of communication open with her and tread on this in such a manner that we dont ruin it. I would like to be able to keep her respect and also feel respected at the same time.

I have gotten about 100 NEW grey hairs on my balding head from this ... >.<

Btw my daughters facebook profile page is her holding a gun lol so many are intimidated by her and often mention that. I am also on her friends list and my profile pic has me and my daughter holding guns together sitting on a dead deer. haha!

Still doesnt feel any better.. but it could be worse.

>.<

MNG

I have to be reasonable also.

I was always the height of reasonableness. I just never decided it was reasonable to countenance either 15, 16, 17 year old daughter getting plowed in some moron's backseat.

BTW: The trick is to have the discussion when the answer about sex is so obviously "No" that no momentum gets built up leading to the possibility that the answer is "You mean like LAST night?"

Thanks NG, That seems reasonable.

I guess part of the problem for me was that I have been living with my wife since she was 17. We both moved into our first place before we graduated high school. Got after school jobs to pay rent.

>.<

I fear a bit that my daughter will follow our foot steps. I said this to her .. she said to me right after something along the lines of..

"Dad why would I do that .. so I can end up like you guys? with kids by 18? and NO life? Not likely. My goals in life are big and I have a long ways to go still so dont plan on me going anywhere anytime soon or making choices like you guys did. I plan on learning from your mistakes or at least the ones you tell me about. Besides .. how am i going to get a ranch and horses and property for you to move on to so I can take care of you guys and get your help on my ranch if I do that?"

I just tilted my head sideways a bit and looked at her after that with an intrigued expression on my face.

OK .. so my biofeedback machine came in the mail the other day (a GSR2). With it i realized that my tension is soo high! I start the machine and the setting is at just a tad over 2 after like 10mins or so im just over 3 but easily get distracted or thoughts pop into my mind and BOOM the pitch goes so high i cant even hear it anymore and have to readjust the senisitivity back down again and start over

MY wife tried it and it starts making noise around 3 for her where its 2 for me .. and she can go a bit higher ... but she also finds it difficult to bring the tone down. ANY bad thought that comes in almost right away sends the tone high again.

My son tried it and it has helped him realize just how anxious he really is... we are getting him to use it daily now after school ... just a few mins to help him recognize his state of mind and help him wind down.

Anyone have experience with GSR bio feedback? HOw long does it take to get to a point where i can turn the dial way up around 8 or 9?

MNG

Small update .. I am currently feeling the backlash of putting my extended family in Plan B (it was DD's 15th Bday and she didnt want anyone to visit but instead wanted a quiet night with us and an expensive gourmet sushi dinner!). We are hearing negative rumors floating around also about how much of [censored] we are for cutting them out like that .. and they dont think they are abusive and we should get over it ... it kinda hurts .. but at the same time i feel alot better emotionally and am getting better at controlling my anxiety.

I never realized how close to insanity i function at until i got this GSR. I let my co-worker try my GSR and they managed to turn it up to 7 .. whereas I am still struggling with getting over 3. I was practicing my GSR the other day .. and as I calmed down and tried to bring the pitch down ... the next thing i remember its supper time. >.< i passed out trying to control the GSR sound pitch lol.

Anyhow .. not much of an update ... but wife and I are getting back into better UA time .. and making better use of it. My wife is happy with our progress .. and the psycologist is doing an amazing job. He has changed my wifes attitude quite a bit and also helped me se things in a different light with my wife. We will continue to see him for a bit longer.

MNG

Don't contrast yourself to others on the biofeedback thing.

You do what you do.

Oh .. i thought it was a measure of sorts of the level of anxiety/tension/arousal? (seems to increase in pitch with all 3)

And yet, you relaxed yourself so much that you nodded off.


Measure your progress as your progress, not your progress vs that of others. That's a path to self-defeat.

I see.

Thanks for the 2x4 It was actually making me feel more anxious thinking how far i had to go if thats even a true measurement of my tension/anxiety. Was almost depressing, but seeing how happy my wife is with the progress makes me want to continue!

Its funny .. I will be sitting with the machine and my wife will come up to me and say "christmas" and the machine will spike up lol .. then she goes away again after i calm it down and says my step moms name and BOOM up it goes again. I ask her What are you doing? lol She says shes doing it to help me relax when thoughts of those particular events and people come to mind. To help me train my brain to relax with those thoughts.

However .. I am feeling a bit guilty for cutting out my extended family. We currently associate with very few people at all. Most of them still associate with my extended family and we are slowly cutting them off too because they are coming over and then going back to my dad and step mom and telling them whats going on at our place. Seems like all they want is to continue to talk about this and keep the drama going ... I dont understand why people cant just be themselves without getting involved in my family affairs and keep whatever they hear to themselves and not rush around with the gossip. ALL my extended family sucks ... not one of them is very supportive. ALWAYS tit for tat .. especially with my dad and his common-law wife of 20 years. Everything they do for anyone has a hidden agenda or hidden expectation.

I could go on about them but I will stop .. I am feeling sad about the lack of support my family gives my wife and I and having to push them off the bus.

MNG

Do you have other friends to spend time with or friends from church? I've been thinking lately about how my wife and I have not really included (or had) many friends we associate with. I can see where that drama gets old quick.
I seem to do ok making friends, but my wife on the other hand doesn't put herself in situations where she can make friends.

Not really .. nope ... we have one couple we hang out with on occasion but they are an hour away from us.

Things with my wife and I are not gong too well today. We will be seeing the psycologist tonight.