I am new to the MB forum and appreciate the vast information and help that are offered here.

A little bit about my H and me:
We have been married for almost 24 years. H is 70 and I am 67. For the first 15 years of our marriage, H was engaged in an EA with his ex. I did not meet his need for Family Commitment. But, their interactions were much more than about the children. She was fine with a divorce until he remarried. She used FC to wedge herself into working on "getting him back". I understand her feelings. I had the same feelings about my ex when he remarried. But, I did not try to break up their marriage. And I CERTAINLY did not issue an ultimatum: divorce your wife and remarry me or I will marry this other guy! H did not discourage her from continuing to try to win H back. After a while, I began engaging in LB's---angry outbursts, pleading for him to stop, etc. After 15 years, it finally was over for good. I should mention, also, that H had an EA with ANOTHER woman, too, during this time, discussing intimate details of our M with her as well as his ex. A couple of years ago, H told me about yet another woman who he thinks is WONDERFUL in many ways---all my weaknesses. At that time, I was not meeting his need for SF. But, that's not what he said was wonderful about her.

Anyway, I have not felt safe nor loved for most of our married life. I understand, now, that it is partly due to the idea that I should just "get over it". Also, no EPs in place. And, there are a lot of triggers---most of them related to his dishonesty.

We have taken the EN Inventory. My two most important ENs are: Affection and RC. His are Affection and SF. We have also taken the LB Inventory. The two that cause H the most unhappiness are Selfish Demands and Disrespectful Judgments. The two that cause me the most unhappiness are Dishonesty and Independent Behavior.

With that background, I would appreciate your feedback on the EP I have written, but not yet given, my H:
1. Follow, and follow through with: POJA, PRH, PUA, meeting each other's ENs, avoiding each other's LB's.
2. No contact with Pam, Billie, or Mary P. Block them from FB.
3. Take a polygraph. (This is due to his chronic dishonesty. I think it's time I know what I'm REALLY dealing with).
4. Keep passwords and user names up-to-date. (He and I already have a notebook with all present info).
5. Show me all phone bills. (I don't know---He may have another phone he's keeping a secret.)
6. Install key loggers on laptop, desktop, and phone. This is because most of the phone calls he makes are when I am not around. His favorite, when having EA with ex (actually, maybe more than EA since he spent the weekend with her three times) was to call when I was in the shower!
7. No friendships with POS's.
8. No talking to POS's re personal subjects. Ex.: likes, dislikes, our or our former marriages, personal history.
9. No flirting or joking around with POS.
10. No clubbing, strip joints, etc. without me.
11. Provide daily schedule of all appointments and daily schedule of 100% of your time.
12. No going for walks or to the gym without me. (This is because his "latest" lives a few doors down from us, goes for walks with her dog, and frequents the gym.)
13. All independent (of me) recreational activities, except POJA'd golf, cease and are replaced with recreational activities that include me. This is to continue until #1 are HABITS (not broken until I feel comfortable that you will REALLY FOLLOW them). This is because H habitually POJA's and then ignores, even when he tells me he enthusiastically agrees.
14. On golf days, call me from the 17th hole. (I can see him from our deck.)
15. No more nights apart after already-planned golf trip. Call me at least once a day during the trip.
16. Any time I have the thought "I don't want my wife to know about..." call me IMMEDIATELY---BEFORE you do it.
17. Sundays, plan together our recreational activities and appointments. We do this already and I'd like it to continue.

I am concerned that these might appear controlling, OTOH. OTOH, I want to start feeling safe and loved. I would appreciate your input. Thank you for reading this lengthy post!

Hello, TS (I just can't call you The Sewer! Perhaps you might consider changing your displayed name?)

I'm sorry for the pain that has brought you to this place.

Having EPs is not controlling. They are instituted to protect you from the pain of adultery.

One thing I have heard Dr. Harley say is that men need women in their lives, so they should be doing a great deal to be a good man in order to keep a good woman in their lives. Older men who are married are healthier and happier, whereas many older women are quite content living on their own. So, you see, there is an incentive for your H to try his best to hold on to you by becoming a really good and SAFE man.

Women who are not married and are on the prowl will flatter a man and he gets hooked on the cheap admiration. If that woman was married to the man and suffering his IB and dishonesty, her admiration would quickly end.

In order for a woman to enjoy SF with her H, she needs to feel cared for and in love with her H. In order for her to feel cared for and loved, he needs to be affectionate and conversational with her AND avoid love busters. It all works together. If you have not felt loved or cared for during your marriage, it is little wonder you have not felt like making love with your H.

As you have discovered, there is no "getting over it" when it comes to adultery, whether physical or emotional.

First step in Recovering your Marriage is No Contact ever again with any former girlfriends, wives, or adultery partners, which would include any EAs and PAs. If he MUST communicate with his XW, then you need to set up an IM. She, as well as any others, must find it impossible to contact him (or you) directly. There is no reason for his XW to communicate directly with him. This can be done through an IM (intermediary.)

Second step: Transparency and Integrated life - you know where the other is at all times; share each others schedules with each other; ability to check up on whereabouts; exchange cell phones without questions; all passwords shared.

Third Step: No nights apart

Fourth Step: Extraordinary Precautions for the rest of your life. You created a list of these. I would go further than no contact with those former adultery partners; he needs to have NO friendships with the opposite sex. Period. Friendships are how affairs begin.

Fifth step: A program of recovery that builds a romantic passionate marriage, a marriage that is BETTER than ever before. MB has an excellent online program for about a thousand dollars - the accountability and access to Dr. H.'s private forum is well worth it.

Since one of his APs lives down the street from you, you two might strongly consider moving away.

He should either cancel the upcoming planned golf trip or you should go with him.

Go ahead and install the keyloggers yourself. It's better if he doesn't know about the loggers. Yes, this is called "snooping," and Dr. Harley condones this. It's for the sake of the safety of the marriage.

Well, apparently 'self-control' has not been an option for WH.
Anyone who cannot control themselves needs tighter 'rules'.

I do have an issue with #10.


The "etc" is vague. This is really trying to say the following:

#10
All recreational activity will be together as a couple and must be mutually enjoyable for both of us.


Welcome to MB.

TS,

I agree about the posting name. Can you think of a different name that is positive for the future?

It seems as though you are knowledgeable about some things in MB. Have you read Dr. Harley's book, "Surviving an Affair"?

Is your husband on board with MB? Does he know the main principles?

AM

FWIW, I took it to mean she's a seamstress. But it does look odd.

Oh, of course. Silly me. I read something entirely different. TS, do you quilt?

AM

TS, if his OW lives a few doors down from you, that will be a disaster because your marriage can't recover like that. Dr Harley would tell you to move. Is that what you mean by "latest?"

If so, that is a deal breaker.

Even walking by the OW's house with you defeats the purpose because he will still be triggered. Having you there won't prevent his feelings from coming back.

Entire article at: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html

How to Survive an Affair chapter in HIS NEEDS, HER NEEDS
p. 177

...I have seen husbands build new and wonderful relationships with their wives but then go back to their lovers after five or six years of what appeared to be marital bliss. When I ask them why, they inevitably tell me they miss the woman terribly and still love her. At the same time they stoutly affirm they love their wives dearly and would not think of leaving them.

I believe a man like this has told the truth. He is hopelessly entangled and needs all the help possible to be kept away from his lover and stay faithful to his wife. I often recommend that a man once involved in an affair come in to see me every three to six months on an indefinite basis, just to talk about how things are going and to let me know how successfully he has stayed away from his lover. He must resign himself to a lifetime without her. HE MUST CERTAINLY NOT WORK WITH HIS FORMER LOVER AND SHOULD PROBABLY LIVE IN SOME OTHER CITY OR STATE. Even with those restrictions the desire for her company persists...

Thank you all for your very thoughtful responses.

ROTFL...Yes, one of my hobbies is sew-ing, mostly for my H and my home (window treatments) and costumes, as needed. But, I can see the need to change my User Name. How is that done?

@LongWayFromHome:
There has been hardly any communication with XW for years, although there have been recent emails re her belief that she has not been getting her full share of his military retirement pay. I have been included in all the emails re this. I think it might be a good idea to choose an IM.
There are grandchildren involved, now. So, going to Baptisms and other milestones are out of bounds? Those are the only times we see her. Last time, two years ago, was a Baptism. XW was there, but left early. Nobody---not even her kids---seemed to care about it. This seemed strange and H commented re it. It still does bother me when there a conversations between the two of them at these functions, so can see your point. I am vacillating.
Re the present person: I don't know if they are having/have had an EA or not, but H's comments re how WONDERFUL she is did wave a huge red flag. She is very rude to me. The thing that angered me the most was the time that H and I were standing in a group. She came up and planted herself between H and me, turned her back to me, and started talking to H. That was the LAST time we did anything social with them. H used to play tennis with a group that includes her. Not anymore. She and her BF have their house up for sale, but it has not yet sold. They have/had plans to move to another state and have made a deposit to build a house there. So, I'm waiting...
Re the golf trip: This trip is with a group of guy friends. Is it something I should be concerned about?

@Pepperbound:
H has said I am controlling, but I think you are right re H's lack of boundaries with OW. I just want to be sure I am not being too controlling re EP. Apparantly, I'm not, so it sets my mind at ease.
As for #10, do you think that is covered in #13?

@ArmyMama:
Yes, we have both read SAA, LB, HNHN and have the workbook. H SAYS he is on board with the principles but he has not followed through on POJA even though he SAYS he "enthusiastically agrees". I do my part, he does not do his. Always excuses as to why not. Mainly, he's a "conflict avoider". H "forgot" what one of my top two ENs were. He did a good job with the one he remembered. (It's his top need as well, so easy for him...) His "enthusiastically agreeing" and then not doing his part has been the main source of contention for most of our marriage.

ALL: I do understand what you all are saying re golf. When we discussed his not following through on his part, we brainstormed some consequences. It was his idea to give up a golf date any time he does not follow POJA or not working on my ENs. I'm a former teacher, so trying Behavior Modification. Otherwise, he seems to have no incentive. So, what do you think?

TS,,

Since you are familar with MB principles, but are having diffiulty with implementation, have you considered signing up for the on-line course? For my H and me, this course was really the start of our recovery. Our coach was able to address issues with my H more effectively than I was.

What do you think?

AM

If his life is a shell without Facebook (caveat: I am NOT a fan of Facebook!) the two of you need a joint FB account. Use a loving picture of the two of you together for your profile picture.

He should not know about this. Remove this from your list of requirements. Then put the keyloggers on. This is a critical snooping tool that you should be using without his knowledge.

Neither one of you should be in strip joints, separately or together. Why in the world would you want your husband staring at a naked woman, with you or without you???

I'm not exactly sure how you will be able to enforce this, and how he will be able to maintain it. You may want to rephrase this to read that you need to know where he is at all times. He also needs to be available to you at all times via phone, minimum. You can use snooping tools to confirm his veracity.
This is a sweet thought. I'm visualizing you guys on the phone while you're waving at each other. But I would require him to call you from the THIRD hole. That way you know he's playing 18 holes and not nine. That's a difference of 1-1/2 to 2 hours of unaccounted-for time.

ArmyMama,
Right now, money is tight. In a couple of months, things will loosen up a little (too many bills due at the same time.) In the meantime, I'd like to strike while the iron is hot. H is pretty receptive right now. Since setting limits and tying them to golf, he is doing much better with POJA. But, I do agree that it is a good idea to take the online course. Thank you for your input re my questions.

Marital Bliss,
1. You are so right re FB. I started first, to stay in touch with my 15 year old granddaughter. Then, he started an account to stay in touch with his daughter and grand kids. We don't post much, ourselves. But, I think it's a GREAT idea to have a joint account! I'll put that in the EP plan.
2. Yes. I now understand re key loggers. I'll take that off the EP plan and just do it on my own without his knowledge.
3. OMG, you are so right re strip joints! I don't know that he has ever frequented one---at least, not during our marriage. Don't want to put any ideas in his head We don't go to clubs very often. We have a country club in our neighborhood. Present possible EA person and her BF have not been to any of the functions since NYE. They are having their own issues, right now. She does play Mahjongg on Mondays, so I have said, no golf on Mondays. So far, he is complying.
4. Yes. I will rephrase.
5. Actually, he has been calling me from the 17th hole for the past several weeks. A lot of the guys do that, so it's not unusual. I did not realize, however, that he has the opportunity to have an extra couple of hours by just playing the back nine. Somehow, that needs to be addressed. Not sure how, since I can't see him at the third hole. He could call from anywhere and say he's at the third hole, couldn't he? And, he could just play the front nine, too. So, technically, he'd have to call me twice. Hmmmm...Any ideas?

So, technically, he'd have to call me twice. Hmmmm...Any ideas?

Hide a GPS in his golfbag. Not only could you verify his activity.....you could probably double-check his golf score!

Or a cell phone with GPS?

AM

Or a cell phone with GPS?

No good. He'd have to be told to turn the GPS "on", so he'd know he was being tracked. That being the case, he could ask a buddy to tote the phone around the course, and "play a round" leaving WH free to "play around"!

Wow...you all are GOOD! you've made me think about possibilities I would not have considered. How about this:

I was planning to put "spyware" on his phone, laptop, and desktop, anyway.
I can put a GPS in his golf bag, too.
I also can make EP include looking at the club bill every month and match it up to the dates he has put it on our calendar.

What do you all think?

There is no such thing as too much snooping at this point....

I agree. The more snooping that is in place, the better. That is especially true if the snooping reveals nothing. Having a variety of snooping methods that doesn't show anything increases the confidence that you haven't missed something. Rather convoluted. Hope it makes sense.

AM

I would say look at the club bill yourself without H knowing. Its another form of snooping. If he knows you're looking at it, he'll find a way to cheat on that too.

And I agree with armymama, there can not be too much snooping. If it brings you good intel, do it!!!