What's going on?

MNG, we had to do a lot of that kind of cutting out for various reasons. Now a lot of it is being restored. In particular my parents were real jerks to Prisca, but I simply didn't know a lot about enforcing a boundary. Now that I do, and now that they have apologized and seem to be respecting us, Prisca's enthusiastic about us seeing them again. (And it's a lot more fun.)

Even beyond that, we started focusing a lot more on our immediate family and family time the last few years, and it has been good.

I'm sorry to hear that, MNG. We still have our ups and downs. Usually in our case they are caused by reverting back to fighting (demands, disrespect, and anger). BUT, when those are eliminated, things start to get better.

Are you spending enjoyable time together?

It was a tough day/evening. I tried to approach my wife on the lack of SF as of late ... I was calm ... didnt yell (wife did)... and my wife took it as a personal attack. I tried to point out to her that all our UA time has 3 of the 4 ingredients on a consistant basis and was wondering what was the issue with no SF. The conversation was unpleasant to her and i said to her calmly "so now that your #1 need of conversation is not being met this ONE TIME very well because I am complaining about your neglect of my needs how does it feel to not have your needs met this one time?"

She then became hysterical ... saying that I was being mean on purpose and putting pressure on her for sex. I told her thats how i feel when we have great dates .. and everything but SF lands on the plate of our UA time consistantly and then you wonder why the next day im edgy or dont talk much. I told her That I am supposed to be emotionally honest and that I was expressing my complaint of her neglect to be honest with her .. and she didnt like it and said that me telling her those things is not being emotionally honest but cruel. I calmly walked away and let her deal with her own crying and whatever else was going on in her head. She was mad at me also for not being emotional.. thinking that becasue I had no emotion over the subject that it was part of my cruelty. I explained to her .. So you want me to go back to participating in the escelation? Or would you prefer I keep my emotions in check like I am doing and tell you these things calmly? She had no reply.

During our "talk" (i talked .. my wife yelled and cried)My wife said shes really in love with me and how can I hurt her so much by bringing this stuff up.. I said to her "Of course your in love with me because 99% of the time .. i am meeting your needs and you take it for granted and that your feelings for me are directly related to how i treat you .. and my feelings for you are directly related to how you treat me" So all this time that I meet your needs but you ignore mine for weeks .. im rewarding your bad behaviour by being nice to you while you neglect me. I said also "Thats like giving our son a cookie for coloring on the walls, why would I reward his bad behaviour?" I also told her "calmly" I am no longer in love with you my love bank balance is so low that I had no interest anymore in making good conversation or affection .. or doing anything recreational with her and I wont be doing ANYTHING i dont want to do anymore. (I had been doing all sorts of things for her approval just for her to take me for granted and not get that approval). I asked my wife after she calmed down a bit ... how about you do a Plan A on me for a change im tired of trying so hard to only get rejected or ignored .. or told to not "pressure" her. I then asked her How am I supposed to bring up these issues of unmet needs when any mention of my needs is pressure? What If I dont want to meet your needs anymore and I dont want you to pressure me to talk to you? How would you go about getting your need for conversation met if I dont want you to pressure me about it and I just want to sit and do nothing from now on instead of rubbing your back every night .. and showering you with meeting your needs every day that you seem to take for granted?

After that we went to the psycologist the next day and her attitude changed because he helped my wife see my side .. and me see hers. The psycologist agreed .. I shouldnt do anything I dont want to do and neither should she... and frankly I didnt feel like doing anything anymore because my best efforts would not put my wife in any sort of mood for SF. I could be the best hubby for weeks .. and she would not even think of SF... but I am not to pressure her or even mention it or it became a heated discussion. Any kind of sex related talk ... would be putting this "pressure" on her. I would get anxiety just thinking about a way to bring it up with her while trying to operate under the "no pressure" rule my wife has said to me over and over again and that it will happen when it happens and I am just to be patient and stop being a horn dog.(tumble weeds roll by for several weeks with this "waiting") I would wait for her to initiate and get frusterated. I told her.. i cant wait for weeks for you to initiate SF so I guess I will just have to take it into my own hands since I cant "pressure" you or even mention it.. i need SF because it helps keep my head clear .. gives me confidence and an emotional connection to my wife.

Since that convo .. and the last visit to the psychologist ... my wife has really stepped up. She thanked me for not being emotional and not getting angry .. and that helped her feel safe ... and appologized for her outburst that night when i was calmly complaining my side of unmet needs and has been initiating very frequently and actually enjoying SF since then.

MNG

This part of our issues gives me anxiety .. on one hand I feel like the bad guy/guilty for kicking my extended family off the bus and they feel the same about us that we are being [censored].

But on the other hand I feel so much better for doing it and my anxiety is under much better control ... not on the edge as much anymore. .. The psychologist told me he figures they will never understand .. so no point in trying to explain it to them ... they will just want to defend themselves and make more a scene if we talk to them about it. I hope to have it restored eventually ... all the extended family (my dad and step mother in this case) are narcisissits.. and they can do no wrong .. its sad and I am sad about it to some degree.

MNG

Yes ... our time has been enjoyable to some degree. Our UA time consists of tons of affection, TONS of talking, some recreation and very little SF.. pretty close to 15hrs a week. SF is usually duty SF where she usually says to me "i guess its been a while huh ... so go ahead" which is a total turn off. But usually by the time she brings it up like that, I am so desperate for that connection .. i take it .. and then feel guilty after and worse than not doing it.

This is not saying our SF is always duty related .. it CAN be good and fun for both of us .. and I am sure with all the stresses our life has taken in her global mind its probabaly the furthest thing from her mind. Probably need more healing still as she thinks she has an aversion to sex .. but doesnt want to follow Dr. Harleys aversion excercises (she doesnt feel its bad enough to do that) just wants me to be more patient.

But things are DEF getting better... one day at a time. Some days are down ..(like my post from the other week) but lately most days are up.

My son got a FANTASTIC report card.. for the first time ever. I was so proud I got a bit of a tear in my eye. He has gotten a grip on his anxiety and his teachers have reported he is much more stable emotionally than he has ever been this year. Probably now that I also have a grip on my anxiety .. he does too .. seems to go hand in hand .. since i FIRMLY believe children are products of their environment.

I am optimistic about the way we are heading in regards to our marriage .. and the results of our MCing. Thinking about how to deal with my extended family gives me anxiety.. Totally not looking forward to talking to them about recent events of pushing them off the bus when its time to restore those relationships. Although i hear through the grape vine they are being alot nicer to everyone else now. (other extended family members feel the same as we do about them .. but also contribute to the drama just as much .. and dont want to make a stand like we are).

My dad goes in for a hernia surgery (its the size of a red delicious apple) .. but since we are not talking to them right now .. im feeling an urge to initiate contact (guilt maybe?) .. but at the same time .. i dont want to, as it will resurface the drama again with them and give me anxiety. I hate this ...

MNG

How to deal with narcissists? lol ...

In very small doses - about 5 minutes per interaction, I'd say.

Deep down we know what is the right thing to do, even for a good quality SF. MB programme has made it quite cut and dry. But most of the time we just don't do the right thing, only rationalise our lack of sexual eagerness by saying we have an aversion, too much pressure, stressful life, "I don't have that need at all", etc, the list of excuses goes on.

Have you read the book by C. Terry Warner "Bonds that Make Us Free"? I love this book. And have you revisited and revised your EN questionnaires lately? Needs can change over time.

For us a good and enjoyable SF means we need to plan ahead a bit, we simply need to make sure, that we both have enough energy (a good night sleep, relaxed last evening when we do that in the morning, etc), and that we do not have much to do for the rest of the day (that we have not planned any social events for the rest of the day, that our teens are not at home or are in the middle of their 16 hours sleep, and that our to-do-list is short for that day, honestly - I get two aversions in one minute if that is a long one) and that we really-really have TIME for each other. It is completely doable, even with a stressful life

Yeah ... its been nice with NO interaction the last few weeks. However .. it cant stay this way. Once my wife and I are in a stronger place and can talk of recent past events without our anxieties taking over our thoughts and projecting our defences on each other and getting easily offended in our conversations .. we will be much better able to handle our extended family in new ways.

However .. my dad DID call me today .. and I answered. HE was pleasant which was very nice for a change .. but he is also drugged up a bit from his surgery. It went well .. and he sounds alot more humble than I have ever heard him. My wife and I plan on going to see him in the hospital to show we care still .. but we refuse to visit them in their home. For now. But ONLY because of the EVIL step mother... I love my dad (even though hes as azz) I just wish he didnt have the woman he has.

MNG

Thanks for your insight Mrs_recon6mo its really appreciated coming from a womans perspective.

I have not read that book that you suggested. But I will look into it for sure. In regards to ENQ .. I have suggested a Redo of it but my wife is not interested at this time. I started mine .. but realized when i did .. i was doing it when i was upset .. so it doesnt count. I scrapped it. I figured I would bring it up again when our spirits are high.

And about knowing what to do about making SF good .. your right .. we KNOW what to do .. its building the motivation to do it .. or the thought that the kids may hear ... etc .. our home is so busy its hard to get into the mood (for my wife anyhow .. im ready and willing in a heart beat). MOst of the time .. SF is on saturday mornings and sometimes sunday and during my wifes PMS week .. and Period week its often not at all .. so for 2 weeks I am generally ignored in that department .. but I would love to have it 1 or 2 times in the middle of the week also. To my wife .. thats unrealistic because she works .. and her job is more taxing than mine is (even tho she only works 3 full days and 1 part days with one full day off) .. so understandably so, she is tired. I work 5 days .. plus I am on call 24/7 but its an office job and my wife is a dental assistant under high demand then entire day ... and often doesnt get a lunch break. I help with the kids and chores in the evenings and give lots of affection and conversation when the kids go to bed (oldest one isn't out of our hair til around 10pm or so because of her martial arts class and needing a shower etc.

However ... we are getting better..Everyday I can feel it now. My wife gives me that look of love WAY more often lately. My own demeanor has been changing. Probably due to anxiety/anger management? I dont feel so ramped up... more relaxed... etc. Thoughts of feeling unloved by my wife (even without SF) are not longer a major thought racing in my mind. I guess things are unwinding now and emotions are settling and new boundries with extended familes have been put in place with new understanding (at least from our perspective and a little bit of the feedback we have heard from some who still talk to those we dont)

We are stronger every day now.

MNG

Hi MNG. I was thinking about the sex issue and remembered this article on the website:
Should the POJA be Violated When Trying to Meet Your Spouse's Emotional Needs?

Here's a quote:

Perhaps if your wife read it, she'd be able to talk about her reluctance and might discuss a potential solution?

OK .. first off .. this past weekend was ABSOLUTELY FANTASTIC! My wifes Best friend and her soon to be hubby took our kids all weekend (the ones an hour away) We had so much UA time .. we didnt know what to do with our selves. It was weird.

I said to my wife .. "Do you hear that?" *listens intently*

My wife says "Hear what?"

I grin and say "Exactly!" I then grabbed my wife and gave her a big hug in celebration of NO KIDS!

We soo needed this stress free weekend ... we have been living on the brink of insanity for SO long. Slept in ... lots of back rubs and SF .. eat out all weekend... went on walks ... did the yard work together.. cleaned up the house a bit (was easy when the dishes didnt need to be done every time we ate since we didnt use every dish in the house at every meal like usual lol). We got in TONs of conversation.. holding hands ... wow ... it was almost like we just started dating again. ALmost too good to be true! I dont remember the last time my wife and I had a 2 day break from the kids where we could just be a husband and wife. I felt spoilt and was sad for it to be over so soon... >.< I didnt want the kids to come home yet.



Thanks Z

My wife and I have read that article. My wife has no issues with meeting SF for me .. the problem comes when I am disappointed that it appears shes not as into it as I would like her to be and to me if she didnt orgasm i felt like a failure and it would turn into a fight (how stupid is that?). This has caused her to have an aversion of some kind to her own orgasm i guess or the thoughts of doing it to only not be into it and have me being upset because she was not feeling like it but knew I wanted it. Or if it didnt work out due to being irritated or something but not really recognizing it until the act of SF was engaged she would get anxiety thinking of telling me not to bother with her pleasure..

In her mind .. it was easier for her not have SF because shes doomed if she does or even doesnt. SO i think the subject creates anxiety. In fact I think alot of our issues come from anxiety actually. Its scary how controlling anxiety really is if you let it get the best of you when its unwarrented.

Obviously we have conditioned ourselves over time to create this cycle .. and the psychologist is helping us sort through that aspect. So my wife and I have a new rule ... when we engage in SF I am not to worry about her pleasure (for now) because she will indicate if shes interested and that she just likes it for the bonding it creates. My wife has no problem enjoying the act for the bonding experience ... but doesnt always want an orgasm. So its up to me to help her feel safe in that regard and this weekend was a HUGE step forward in that direction and that we wer able to POJA a solution to get us through for the time being.

Some of what I typed above is or may seemed messed up .. I feel weird taking about it actually .. is me wanting and focusing on my wifes pleasure during SF and being upset by it not happening crazy? I am not sure why I am offended by my wife not having an orgasm every time we engage in SF. We have been exploring that recently.. My wifes response to that is She feels she doesnt get to own it anymore if I am always pressureing her to have an orgasm during SF if she doesnt want it. I have read all sorts of stuff where the guy only cares about his SF and not hers rolling over and going to sleep etc) .. but its exact opposite here. I need and like mine .. but i get offended when my wife doesnt have hers? Weird ..

But whats really good now is my wife and her friend (female) have really renewed their friendship and my wifes friend is the exact opposite of her sexually and so they have been chatting about it and that connection with a "girl friend" shes getting is giving her a new perspective on it and her friends perspective is like mine but from a female point of view.

Things are looking up!

MNG,
So you are working on letting that go right? I know to what you are referring to. I want the experience to be mutually satisfying but unfortunately the mindset I used to have was that I associated her being pleasured as the mutually satisfying part. Those thoughts I needed to let go of. It isn�t a requirement for her to have her release in order for it to be satisfying to her. The mere fact she knows she�s pleasing me is that part that is satisfying for her � and my need to push her to have MORE is disrespectful, full of what I want not what she wants.

Lately my wife has helped clue me in during our SF time together on what the goal is for our time but stating at the start �Tonight is about you.�. I love that she says it in a very sensual way. OH MY!!! Maybe you and Mrs. MNG can find something similar so you understand what�s on tap.

Mr NG, there's some really good stuff in the Willingness to Desire articles. I remember my body changed when I had kids and what used to work for me no longer did. But that's okay you two can figure out how to make it all simple and easy again.

There are six in this series. Have you seen them?

Willingness to Desire #1

Thanks for the feed back. Yup I am working on the part of letting go of her pleasure. I'm def not a lazy lover and very concerned with my wifes fulfillment in that department. Our psychologist helped me see that part and really cleared that up on our last session. Part of the issue stemmed from my upbringing. My mom would tell me to always make sure your woman gets hers first! My mother treated me like I was the man of the house and I was expected to behave like a dad towards my 2 younger siblings, who we all have a different father (9 and 10 years younger). She would bring other men into our home (my mom was single all my childhood) and I would get attatched to them and then next thing I know they are gone never to be seen again. When I asked why and what happened. My mom would usually tell me it was because he was sexually selfish and didn't care about her needs. This confused me greatly. So men came and went like a revolving door with no concern for us kids. Then I would be left to help pick my mom back up and would be her emotional tampon. It sucked! So growing up I had this trained thought process that if my wife is not sexually satisfied she would throw me out or next me (after all that what mom constantly displayed). I never really digged into it until recently when the. Psychologist asked the right questions and made me explain my perspective. It was really an eye opener.

Its now very apparent that it was emotional abuse by my mom. Which really skewed my view on sf. I was basicly my moms husband in a weird twisted way and she used me to meet her needs in every aspect but sexual and disclosed her sexual issues to me when things didn't workout with the guy. I would feel bad for her.. Confused..and mourn the loss of the guy that I would get attatched to.I soo badly wanted a dad in my life (had a hard time with visitation with my real dad for a long time) How messed up is that? That's almost sexual abuse too the way my mom dumped her sexual issues on me at such an early age (11-15). I then met my wife at 16 and moved out with her at 17 into our own apartment.

In regards to the articles mentioned. Its caused a few heated discussions in the past. Its not that my wife is unwilling and she's tried to find her desire but she jusrt doesn't have it. My wife has told me many times that she just doesn't desire sf and doesn't often feel "horney". When we are engaging in sf it brings out her desire once things get going but if I am not doing the initiating she would and could just carry on for weeks without it. The problem came when those weeks would go by and my wife would tell me not to pressure her for sf (how can I initiate sf without some kind of pressure? As she states if I bring it up at all its pressure) so that's where I get stuck.

Dr.harley says I'm supposed to make it enjoyable and be the primary initiator since I have the highest need. But this no pressure echo in my head gives me anxiety thinking about how to achieve it. My wife often teLld me I meet all her needs and it just doesn't stir sexual emotion in her and its nothing to do with me. I then ask if I meet all your needs then how come you don't initiate sf if I am not supposed to pressure you?

But! Our psychologist has really helped us past this bit. We may need to take another look at those with a refreshed mind set. My wife said to me recently that she takes back the no pressure mantra she has echoed at me for years and wants me to initate more as long as I understand that sf for her is not always a release for her and she has a better understanding that sf for me is not just a physical release but gives me the same connected and emotional bond that pleasant conversation gives her. She's heard it and read it before (same with me actually) but having the psychologist ask us these questions and validating us both and helping us reaffirm that its normal has gone a long way to really change things for us. Its also helped to cut the toxic extended family out during this healing time also.

Mng

P.s. Maybe this is too much info .. Hopefully it helps future readers feel more comfortable being honest on the boards too. I don't often see ppl talk of the sexual details like this. So its kinda embarassing but feels good to talk about it here also.

Your anonymous. It's all good. If you can't talk about it here ... where else could you? This is the only safe place to do so as we're all following the same principles to a wonderful M.

To your post about your Mom. I have the same concept as a child ... things my Mother said to me that impacted how I respond to my W and our SF issues. Boy I hope we don't screw our kids up like that.

Yeah ... our kids think we are crazy because they are both well rounded and balanced and dont understand our perspective very well. My daughter is glad though that things are getting much much better lately. Shes very supportive and understanding. We dont give her personal details like my mom did to me. She has shown interest in wanting to talk about our problems when its very apparent my wife and I are not getting along, but we ask her to not ask us and that its inappropriate for us to talk about our personal problems with her. She then gives me this look and says "are they sexual problems?" I just give her a look back and tell her "I cant discuss it, its inappropriate". She then says .. "you guys need more time together and I will try my best to help you with that" She is always telling us to go out now .. or if its nice on the weekend takes her little brother to the park for a bit in the morning before we get up on the weekends (its a 5 min walk for our house) or has the kitchen tidy our the house tidy in general when we get home from work after she does her homework. Shes been doing alot of little things to take some stuff off our plates without us asking her to. SO blessed! We praise her for her efforts very often. She even sometimes has dinner on the go!

My DS8 on the other hand he wants to help also. However .. hes not as adept at the helpful things as my DD15. So we thank him for his desire to help .. and tell him the fact hes doing awesome in school .. and making excellent progress with his anxiety is already doing us a HUGE favor and we praise him for those things .. and also praise when he is respectful and kind .. and often he offers to clear the dinner table on his own now and keeps his room clean on his own now also. Wow .. he even vaccumes because he wants to help like his big sister does.

The progress as of late has been moving forward in leaps and bounds .. a hurdle in our MB journey that we were stuck at is finally having the road block removed.

Am I in recovery now ?? lol *shrugs*

MNG

Pretty cool stuff MNG. Pretty cool.

May I interject for a moment here?

What your wife is experiencing sexually is really quite normal, even for a woman in love. Over the years, there is a natural loss of testosterone in women, and women have much less than men to start with. Testosterone is what lights the fire, so to speak.

I've heard Dr. Harley say that a woman in her child-bearing years would probably feel that kind of physical desire for sex maybe once or twice a month. Obviously, that's not going to work for most healthy men, and this is where being in love with your husband helps.

When a woman is in love, as your wife seems to be with you, she does WANT to meet that need, but it's more of an emotional connection she is desiring. She also wants to make her man happy and at the same time to enjoy SF for herself, not necessarily always experiencing satisfaction the way a man has a need to. (trying to be politically and all correct.)

In the SF chapter of HNHN, Dr. Harley says that it's important for a man to not pressure his wife to have an O, because it's not always going to happen for her and she often feels very satisfied without going for it. So it's important not to place this expectation on her.

It's important for the husband to make sure he allows enough time for the O to happen but at the same time not stretching it out too long and making her feel as though she has to "perform" each time.

What we do is schedule it a few times a week. That way H doesn't have to wonder when the next time will be; we both know. I know that I am in charge of my own SF satisfaction and H knows his job is to make sure he allows time for it happen. If it's not going to happen for me, I let him know and he proceeds.