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#2501361 04/23/11 12:05 PM
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Bait!

I know you clicked it, ladies. Don't lie.

But, really, it's not about you. It's about us. It's about the fellas.

I was searching for an image for a model using an iceberg to explain the hierarchy of beliefs, thoughts, feelings, and actions, and stumbled on something entirely different than I had expected.

My search yielded;

Building Your Resiliency Part IV: Iceberg Ahead!, from The Art of Manliness.

Never even heard of this site before, but it's rather interesting. This particular article actually ended up being along the lines of what I was looking for;

Quote
According to the authors of The Resilience Factor, this experience of a mismatched stimulus/reaction is �a sign you are being affected by an underlying belief-a deeply held belief about how the world ought to operate and how you feel you ought to operate within that world. �These deeper motivations and values often drive us and determine how we respond to adversity�these underlying beliefs-or icebergs, as we call them- are usually outside our awareness, deep beneath the surface of our consciousness.�

Soooooo.... I did some more quick digging on the site's articles.

For instance, this article defending marriage, or this one on how to apologize "like a man."

It melted down, but gents, get reading and let's discuss. Let's reverse "the end of manliness."

Last edited by Dufresne; 05/20/11 03:48 AM. Reason: moved and renamed on request of OP

"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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It's a humorous site. I cracked up reading How to Build an Impenetrable Snow Fort and How to Hail a Taxi...Like a Man. I really liked the hair care stuff that had different kinds of pomade (I have to use pomade). Found out I use the same stuff as Mad Men crew...love that show.

It's really too bad men LET themselves be emasculated.


Husband (me) 39
Wife 36
Daughter 21
Daughter 19
Son 14
Daughter 10
Son 8 (autistic)

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Originally Posted by kilted_thrower
It's a humorous site. I cracked up reading How to Build an Impenetrable Snow Fort and How to Hail a Taxi...Like a Man. I really liked the hair care stuff that had different kinds of pomade (I have to use pomade). Found out I use the same stuff as Mad Men crew...love that show.

It's really too bad men LET themselves be emasculated.


Right?

Actually, this one might become a daily read and/or a notebook site for me.

I just got done going over some of the health and fitness articles, like 35+ variations of pushups.

Aztec pushups look BRUTAL.

That, and it's got me really interested in my N.U.T.s (Non-negotiable, unalterable terms).

Quite honestly, from what I have read so far, I think we could all use a little "manning up."

(


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
The Art of Manliness.

Never even heard of this site before,

I have! Not one of my regular reads, but I see links to it frequently and occasionally go over there to wander and see what looks interesting.

At Christmas time I looked to see if they had an article on wrapping gifts. They did. smile


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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I also read his case for marriage article awhile ago. Great source of info! Haven't seen the how to apologize article till now.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
Bait!

I know you clicked it, ladies. Don't lie.

Okay, Prisca is sitting right next to me, on her pink laptop, with this thread up, with this sentence highlighted, looking at me saying "No, I didn't!"

Maybe she thinks since she's logged in as me on that machine it doesn't count? skeptical


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
Bait!

I know you clicked it, ladies. Don't lie.

Okay, Prisca is sitting right next to me, on her pink laptop, with this thread up, with this sentence highlighted, looking at me saying "No, I didn't!"

Maybe she thinks since she's logged in as me on that machine it doesn't count? skeptical
whistle


Markos' Wife
FWW - EA
8 kids ...
What to do with an Angry Husband

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I'll talk to myself if I have to.

crazy

Quote
Throughout human history, however, their physical and mental differences have led to widespread discrimination by men against women. We should not be surprised at that tragic result because whenever there have been differences among us, we have tended to discriminate. And since there are no greater differences than there are between a man and a woman, we should expect sexual discrimination. It's been less than 100 years that women have even had the right to vote here in America because they were judged to be intellectually inferior. Instead of seeing women as an essential complement to their lives, men have tended to view them as personal property that were to serve them throughout life, much like slaves. Men viewed themselves as superior in every way, and felt that the judgment of women was inadequate to make final decisions, even when it came to voting.

Thankfully, we have seen justice for women. Education, the ultimate equalizer, has proven that women are every bit as intelligent and creative as men. In fact, they are now in the majority in most colleges and universities. Every male college student can attest to the fact that women are in no way intellectually inferior.


http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8120_differences.html

I attend a private university with a census of 70% female students.

Nationally, the same trend is being followed.

Female infidelity is on the rise.

What happened? Women's lib? Feminism? A degenerating Y chromosome?

Nah. Men have just become weenies. We became politically correct. Every time we tried to stand for being male, we were beaten down with accusations of perpetuating patriarchy or misogyny. As if masculinity in it's very essence is misogyny.

Like the pygmy husband in the Bugs Bunny cartoons we cowered to the wishes of women because we thought it was to our benefit. We let them change us the way they saw fit, and when they were done "fixing" us, they didn't like the end product of their design.

Let's face it, women design poor men just as badly as men design poor women.

The men here in poor marriages, or who have faced the brunt of adultery have been emasculated to a point of breaking. Some on the other end of the spectrum are overcompensating by adopting a caricaturization of masculinity that is harmful to themselves, and harmful to masculinity as a whole.

Gentleman, it's time to "man up." But first, I think a lot of us have a lot of exploration into just what that means.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Quote
While much in the way of traditional gender roles has shifted in modern times, most women I know still want a man who can be the rock in the relationship. But just what does being the rock entail? I asked this question in the Community, and this is what a few of the men had to say:

Jamie said: �To me, that means being mature, guided by reason and my family�s best interest, rather than being given to emotional upsets. My wife wants to know that if she gives me her cares and concerns, she can rest assured that I�ll take care of them responsibly.�

Jeffre said: �To me, being the rock means I need to be the calm when life starts getting stormy. Not that I can control the events that happen in life, but I can control how our family responds to the events. . . Does it mean I�m always �the rock?� No, there are times when I have had to lean on my wife for support, but as a general rule my job is to be there for her and the kids. If there is a crisis and I�m not doing well, I have to put aside my fear and anxieties to step up for them. You feel like you want to crawl into a hole and disappear, but you can�t because others depend on you. Those are the times of real testing. When those times arrive I think of a quote I read somewhere (I don�t know who originally said it) but here it is: �Ask not for a lighter burden, but ask for broader shoulders.�

Robert said: �My dad was always the �rock� in the family. He�s the go to guy. The person you can always rely on. The person that you know will be strong when everyone else isn�t�Being the �rock� means always doing what you say you will do. Being calm when the situation seems to be chaotic and panic the order of the day. My dad is the rock because he is reason when emotion prevails, compassion when hearts are hardened, and humorous when you least expect it.�

What else does it mean to be the rock? Let�s take a look.

Being the Rock



"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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Originally Posted by markos
I also read his case for marriage article awhile ago. Great source of info! Haven't seen the how to apologize article till now.

There is an article on "Anger Mismanagement" also, Markos.


The ladies have their own section of the forum... I'd like the men to have a thread.

Yaknow?




"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

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laugh


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
laugh

Thanks for the support smiley, Mel.

Sadly, I've watched you and Bliss have to tell far to many men to man up.

It's kind of shocking that some of you ladies are exhibiting more... intestinal fortitude... than some of us fellas. Myself included.

It's time for that to end.

Better husbands, better fathers, BETTER MEN.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

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Originally Posted by markos

Fine find there, Markos!

Is it any question how we get it "wrong" when we have these portrayals perpetuated out there?

I'm surprised Tim Taylor from Home Improvement didn't make the list. Though, I wonder where he would fall? Homer made it in the "Best" because he can't help but to be bumbling, but often redeems himself with his dedication to family.

Tim? Dunno... he has the kind of willful ignorance and false bravado that too many men adopt to be "manly."


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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In the words of the immortal Yogi Berra, "It's deja vu all over again!"

I think it was here, but it could have been another forum, where this topic appeared a few months ago.

My answer then, as now is summed up thus:

"The women's movement has succeeded. It's turned men into women and women into men."



Preach the Gospel every day. When necessary, use words.
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Originally Posted by Fred_in_VA
In the words of the immortal Yogi Berra, "It's deja vu all over again!"

I think it was here, but it could have been another forum, where this topic appeared a few months ago.

My answer then, as now is summed up thus:

"The women's movement has succeeded. It's turned men into women and women into men."

Read some of the later writings of the women who began the feminist movement, esp. Betty Friedan, and you'll see this was never the intent, so therefore not a 'success' at all, for anyone.

(flees the room before I get caught in here)




Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
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Gentleman, I don't really want this thread to be about placing blame.

Find out what's f(*&ed up, and fix it. Then no one gets blamed.

What I am hoping for is for a little masculine humility; that many of us have had poor example after poor example of maleness, masculinity, and/or manliness.

That our falsely held beliefs in manliness prevent us from openly admitting it, and that we are responsible as male peers to support and gut-check each other in learning to walk a man's walk and talk a man's talk.

I don't want this thread to melt down like the former thread in this vein.

The first loss suffered by a BH is the loss of manhood in a psychological sense, and leaves us questioning.

Let's answer those questions, let's not leave it up to the ladies to tell us to be men, let's JUST BE MEN, and if we aren't sure... well then, BE MAN ENOUGH TO ASK.

Last edited by HoldHerHand; 04/24/11 10:42 PM. Reason: bad grammar is not manly

"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

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HHH, we're at a bit of a crossroads here, I think. On the one hand, we're told that "men show no pain," don't ask for directions, solve their own problems, and "man up."

On the other hand, men are portrayed in the media as clueless, wimpy, helpless, bumbling buffoons who couldn't pour urine out of a boot if the instructions were printed on the heel.

In my opinion, neither stereotype is healthy, and I honestly don't think true for the majority.

Even though I'm not a hulking brute of a man, I've never doubted my masculinity. But I was on a fast track toward destruction through my own self-centered ideas and behavior. Nearly twenty years ago I was blessed with that "moment of clarity" that allowed me to see how powerless and out of control I was. It was a turning point in my life.

Present day: once a week I attend a men's small group Bible study. Some of the most manly men I've ever met attend this. I'm talking about military jet jockeys, government black hat types, and so on. Despite the high testosterone level, we share with one another the things that are going on in our lives, and we have a pledge to one another to be accountable.

I'm not trying to toot my own horn. Rather, I'm perfectly willing to admit I don't have all the answers and am not afraid to ask for help.

To me, there's nothing unmanly about that!


Preach the Gospel every day. When necessary, use words.
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Originally Posted by Fred_in_VA
HHH, we're at a bit of a crossroads here, I think. On the one hand, we're told that "men show no pain," don't ask for directions, solve their own problems, and "man up."

On the other hand, men are portrayed in the media as clueless, wimpy, helpless, bumbling buffoons who couldn't pour urine out of a boot if the instructions were printed on the heel.

In my opinion, neither stereotype is healthy, and I honestly don't think true for the majority.

Even though I'm not a hulking brute of a man, I've never doubted my masculinity. But I was on a fast track toward destruction through my own self-centered ideas and behavior. Nearly twenty years ago I was blessed with that "moment of clarity" that allowed me to see how powerless and out of control I was. It was a turning point in my life.

Present day: once a week I attend a men's small group Bible study. Some of the most manly men I've ever met attend this. I'm talking about military jet jockeys, government black hat types, and so on. Despite the high testosterone level, we share with one another the things that are going on in our lives, and we have a pledge to one another to be accountable.

I'm not trying to toot my own horn. Rather, I'm perfectly willing to admit I don't have all the answers and am not afraid to ask for help.

To me, there's nothing unmanly about that!

You hit the nail on the head there, Fred.

That's really the aim here.

We have fallen far from the tree, but it's due to a lack of accountability, and the decline of male peer groups.

Because of the decline of strong male peers and mentors, a lot of men are kind of left kind of feeling it out in the dark until, like you, they somehow achieve some moment of clarity.

Some never get that moment.

Some overcompensate stereotypical "man behaviors" to a point of caricature, or get stuck in a man-boy cycle.

It's funny that I just happened on another book about the whole thing.

Accountability and humility. The two go hand-in-hand.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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Ha!

The more I read through AoM, the more I like it. I don't know who else ever thought it, but I know I did; Atticus Finch from To Kill a Mockingbird is the kind of man worth striving to be!

http://artofmanliness.com/2011/02/02/lessons-in-manliness-from-atticus-finch/

Quote
A man lives with integrity every day.

In Maycomb County, Atticus was known as a man who was �the same in his house as he is on the public streets.� That was the standard he lived by. He did not have one set of morals for business and one for family, one for weekdays and one for weekends. He was incapable of doing anything that would broach the inviolable sanctity of his conscience. He made the honorable decision, even when that decision was unpopular.

�This case, Tom Robinson�s case, is something that goes to the essence of a man�s conscience-Scout, I couldn�t go to church and worship God if I didn�t try to help that man.�

�Atticus, you must be wrong��

�How�s that?�

�Well, most folks seem to think they�re right and you�re wrong��

�They�re certainly entitled to think that, and they�re entitled to full respect for their opinions,� said Atticus, �but before I can live with other folks I�ve got to live with myself. The one thing that doesn�t abide by majority rule is a person�s conscience.�

Atticus understood that a man�s integrity was his most important quality-the foundation upon which his honor and the trust of others was built. Stripped of integrity, a man becomes weak and impotent, no longer a force for good in his family or community.

�If you shouldn�t be defendin� him, then why are you doin� it?�

�For a number of reasons,� said Atticus. �The main one is, if I didn�t I couldn�t hold up my head in town, I couldn�t represent this county in the legislature, I couldn�t even tell you or Jem to do something again.�

�You mean if you didn�t defend that man, Jem and me wouldn�t have to mind you any more?�

�That�s about right.�

�Why?�

�Because I could never ask you to mind me again. Scout, simply by the nature of the work, every lawyer gets at least one case in his lifetime that affects him personally. This one�s mine.�

I ain't afraid to admit it. This is a moment in both the book and the movie that swells my chest, tightens my throat, and gets my eyes watering.

Why? Because I watch, and think "I hope that I can live every day of my life with that kind of strength and conviction."

I try... oh, man do I try...


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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