How the Co-dependency Movement Is Ruining Marriages.
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8110_cod.html

Resentment over Issues of Control, Dependency and Identity.
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5055_qa.html
Right from the start she refused to share her income with me, as if everything she earned was "hers," and everything I earned was "ours."

Sally moved out of our house and into her own apartment. While she claims she is not planning to divorce me, I cannot imagine any other outcome.

OK, I was reading the above and it motivated me to post.

Here is where I am at the moment. Withdrawn. The following is why I am withdrawn.

My situation is a little different. My W wants to have separate residences with me doing all of the work and paying for everything.

My wife, which I will call BB, was a SAHM I had some back surgery in 1981 and was off work for over 9 months. From then on our R wasn't the same.

Five years later I had more back problems and I was off work for 3 yrs. BB went to LPN nursing school (was a former LPN but her license lapsed), I was in college preparing for a new career.

When she got back to work, she worked almost full time in a hospital setting that had a 28 day resident co-dependency treatment program. BB was a med nurse at the time. I finally got hired PT at a delinquent boys group home on 3rd shift. The employment situation was tough in our area at the time.

We did ~8 sessions of marriage C but nothing changed. She moved out of our bedroom for 5+ years because I snored and she is a light sleeper.

I had a sleep study done and that took care of the snoring but BB wasn't happy about sleeping together. BB gave up on SF for herself on my first back go-around. I had several months where I hurt so much, I couldn't do much and could only get a few winks if I slept on the floor. To her, I abandoned her by sleeping on the floor.

When she went to LPN school or later to work, SF was out of the question the night before she went to class or to work. No SF was offered if she worked, till she was rested, usually a day or 2 after her last shift. BB went to part time work (2 or 3 days a week but her no SF wishes were still in place. If she worked 3Pm to 11PM Sunday, Tuesday, and Thursday, the rule was no SF from the Saturday before till the Saturday past Thursday. She wanted 2 days rest before and after. I did all of the imitating and getting her in the mood.

Like the article in the "Resentment over Issues of Control, Dependency and Identity" above, her income was hers. She bought some furniture but most of her income was spent on products featured on the TV shopping program "QVC� She got deliveries almost every day and bought shoes and hand bags locally.

I finally told her she had to choose the M or her shopping addiction. I was willing to let her taper off. Big mistake.

(Side track)
BTW, our daughter was also a "QVC" shopping addict. The two of them would call each other in excitement about their recent purchases. Often times they bought the same item but in a different color. It was sort of physic when I heard the "you too" referring to almost simultaneous purchase decisions, without the other one saying anything to the other.

Our daughter got into shopping way deeper than BB. She was over her head in debt, had been in a credit counseling program for over a year and was having trouble with the counseling structured payments. I paid off 3 of the higher interest credit my D was using to the tune of $3,200. D still had another $4K or $5K on her other 3 credit cards. I paid off the CC to allow my D to be a less stressed mother to her 2 children. I often saw how the debt was impacting her and her ability to mother the GKs. Yes, I know I can be an easy push-over.
(End of side track)

I suppose mostly from the Co-dependency treatment exposure, BB got the attitude if a woman wants something, she should get it. She also said many times women need to quit doing for other people and only do what they want to do. BB never liked any job she had so retired as soon as she could. The shopping let up some but still continues.

As you can see, I signed on to Marriage Builders (MB) a long time ago. I filled out a few inventories as did BB. She won't read any of the MB material and the recreational Companionship form she did complete, she placed marks next to things she "would like to do" but won't actually do. I did the RC questionnaire twice but got no where.

I read all of the MB books and a ton more. BB read zero. She believes books don't help solve any problems, just as talking to a counselor won't fix anything. She said the psychiatrists at work were in affective so why go to them

OK, the above is only for back ground. What really matters is I am so deep in withdrawn, it is ridiculous. I tried several date type of activities with her, even one BB brought up, and none get past a beginning stage. I joined 3 different churches because that is what BB wanted. As soon as I feel part of a group, BB feels left out or something and quits. I did a dog rescue program because BB wanted to do it. That project didn't go the way BB wanted it to go (8 months) so she quit before the 250 dogs got adapted to permanent homes. Other people quit but the dogs still needed to be fed, watered, walks, and cleaned-up after. I stayed because there was a need.

BB wanted to learn to square dance so I signed up for the beginner�s season, 7 or 8 months, once a week. She quit around month 4. I finished the season because I thought it was fun and I was learning the 80+ different moves. I went next year but it was difficult knowing BB wasn't there and some of the dance partners were treating me better than BB.. I know situations like this could lead to an emotional affair. I quit going to the square dance sessions, church, and other previous couple functions we attended at one time.

I worked too much so neglected the recreational side of my life. Now if someone asked me to go fishing or help build a 3 car garage, I think I would choose to build the garage. I have been the treasurer of an investment club for 5+ years. Most of the members have been retired for many years. BB thinks I should quit because I should be doing more for her. Today she asked if I needed help vacuuming and I said yes. She proceeded to tell me how to vacuum and wasn't actually offering any help. She asks me if I want to read my mail then tells me to go get it.

Back to the recreational companionship questionnaire. The only two items we had the same was watching TV and eating out. BB watches TV all day and rarely cooks. I do most of the cooking, and anything that involves money or numbers. I take care of the food from buying, storing, managing, and cooking. I think her programs about apparitions and ghosts coming back to haunt the new owners of a building border on insane. BB believes if she can't find something in our house, a ghost moved it and is playing games with her. I know I put things down and forget where "I" put it

BB insisted on a different car back in Nov 2012. Her SUV had 54K on it but she wanted something newer and different. I was an auto mechanic for 25+ years and know a good from a poor vehicle. Typically, the cars I inspect, she doesn't like. I saw one car at one lot in Sept, but she didn't want it. I saw what I thought was a similar car at another lot in Nov for $1,000 more and she sort of liked it. It was the same vehicle, but this time she chose it. The lighting was different so it looked to be a slightly different color. Anyway she has the same car that I looked at in Sept but we paid an additional $1,000 for it. She has driven it 8 miles since Nov 2012.

Our D moved away (500 miles) then 3 yrs later D her h and moved back in my area. I help our D and the grand kids but BB resents me helping and thinks D is selfish. BB never liked D's husband and encouraged D to leave him. Now that D is living in the area, BB has little to do with her and only does child care in a pinch. If someone needs to do things for the GKs it is usually me. I bought a place for D to live and buy from me, as she had poor credit. The buy part is seriously lagging. At least the GKs have a decent place to live.

We are back to no SF (14 months) and separate bedrooms. Like I said I feel so withdrawn I don't want to spend any more time than I have to with BB. I want to go places but she never wants to go anywhere and only a few places if one of her friends is there, if it isn't hot, no wind or rain, and a list of other conditions has to be met. BB wants us to live in different houses, preferably on the same block. She looks at the real-estate section in the newspaper. I used to accommodate her by looking at places but I quit doing that. I want to stay where I am. If we separate I am done.

My lifetime learning has me stuck. I am from the generation that says a D is only acceptable if there is adultery, physical abuse or alcohol/drug abuse.

I am not going to read that long post, but it sounds like you never used Marriage Builders in your marriage. As a result, your wife has fallen put of love. i am sure you worked bits and pieces but this program doesn't work unless you use in its entirety. If you can't motivate your wife to use the program comprehensively, I would look into coaching from the Harleys.

The sad thing about using MB in bits and pieces is that it doesn't work. And when ppl use it like that, they conclude MB doesn't work. It has to be all or nothing.

What about going out on dinner dates? Or long drives? That is an easy activity that most ppl enjoy. Does she enjoy shopping? Then after dinner take her to the mall. It sounds to me like you are making it too complicated. Just be together. In order to create romantic love you must spend 20-25 hours of UA time together each week. This program doesn't work without that step.

Melody, I have been reading your replies for several years and respect a lot of what you post.

BB used to go on drives with me but she never liked drives as a child and has reverted back to that place.

The shopping thing, I tried. I even got on board with her interests hoping it would make our better. It made matters worse. The more she saw, the more she wants.

I know you are a shopping person but I had my fill to a point I have an internal negative reaction when I participate or just keep silent, knowing the shopper doesn't need the item and already has too much stuff. I loaded up and driven to the donation store many, many times with almost new things that rarely got used.

Yes, it is true I only used bits and pieces of the MB program. I am not one to insist another person buy into a program they think suspect.

If BB buys into something it is usually because the seller/person has a bit of flash and charisma. If that same person's claims aren't true, BB does an about face. Plain but truthful people like me, do not motivate her to budge from her opinion.

The hosts on FOX news Shawn Hannity and Glen Beck are her favorite people to follow at the moment. Me, I think they over do their truth and only present a skewed view of what is happening. I am posting this example because these two men are so different than I am. I don't have the showmanship so what I say or think has little influence on her. I am good however to pay the bills, do the maintenance and be go-for when she wants some thing.

About eating out, BTDT and it flops unless I keep it up. Now I usually bring something home because BB doesn't want to get dressed to go out. Her day is mostly laying on the couch and watching TV, wash a few dishes, feed her pets, and maybe a little cleaning because the dogs made a mess.

Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders placed me in a Buyer / Renter (giver) position with BB in a Renter / take anything offered for free (taker) position. My thoughts at this time is I need to stop the free hand-outs on my part and shut down my giver. When I try the POJA it flops because BB doesn't think she should have to compromise. I know compromise isn't port of POJA. What frustrates me is I come up with ideas and BB uses her veto option and rarely any options.

The veto option BB usually uses has me in a Why try mode. Even when she agrees to something, there is a good chance she won't follow through.

I know most MB advocates say the whole plan has to be used. What I need now is a way to stand by what I see as fair, a proper boundary, and not cave into unreasonable expectations.

I am not about to buy BB's love like I tried in the past by jumping through her hoops she thinks men need to jump through because, according to her, most women would be better off with out a man in their life.

There is only one man in our church that BB admires. His W had MS and he does a lot for her. He waits on her hand and foot.

OG LOU, the problem is that the program has never been effectively sold to her. People buy things when there is a perceived benefit. You have been here almost 10 years so it might be time to accept that you can't sell her on this program. The Harley's often CAN. If you can't sell it in a few months, it is time to rachet it up and get professional help. You could get coaching with one of the Harleys and see if they could motivate her. If she is motivated, then you can do the progm on your own or sign up for the online seminar.

"About eating out, BTDT and it flops unless I keep it up."

Yes, of course it flops if you don't keep it up. You have to plan 3-4 dates going out PER WEEK or it doesn't work. You don't just do it a couple of times and then stop.

When do-it-yourself doesn't work, it is time to get professional help. I would suggest that you are way overdue, my friend!

The problem I see with your POJA experiences are unrealistic expectations and a misunderstanding of POJA. First off, an agreement can always be changed. So if she changes her mind, then a new agreement should be negotiated. People don't typically break those agreements unless they decide they dont lie the plan. In your objection to shopping, for example, you objected because she spent too much. However, she couldn't spend too much if your purchases were subject to the POJA.

As far as using the POJA as a veto tool, she would have to agree to brainstorm and find other solutions right away. Doing nothing is not the default, findng another solution IS.

Even so, Dr Harley did not introduce us to the POJA until we had been using his program successfully for several months.

Regarding POJA, that has fallen only on my lap. BB's comments have been to say "do you want a D" so then I give up. That leads to my other fault. I avoid confrontations unless provoked and then I fight back. You can imagine how that leads to negative consequences. If I try the policy of radical honesty, BB takes it as an attack. Being open and honest has lead to BB jumping to her default mode and will say, "do you want a D" or she will say what I isn't my truth about how I feel.

On one go around, she said she didn't have to worry about me finding another woman (AE/PA) because no woman would want me. I know someone looking for a sugar daddy would bypass me but being a sugar daddy is the last thing I want.

Right now I feel so broken (ability to improve the M) I mostly want help with just me. I don't think I should work on anything else right now. I place myself in something similar to the typical "walk away wife" model.

I am trying to develop some normal activities after mostly working most of the time. My friend list is shorter than normal.

I have been on anti depressants and have talked to a few counselors. All advised me to let BB be who she is and for me to develop my life and be more independent. They advised me to inform and even invite BB but to be OK when she declines, no matter what it is.

Are there any resources on MB that do not involve the partner and are geared to improving just the poster's life?

Stats M 45 yrs, BB was my first serious R. Me mostly retired. When I was 18 to 22, I supported my mother and didn't date but a few times. Two children, D42 with 2 girls 8-10, S40 never M but has a good job and he has many interests.

I am utterly astonished that you have given up when you are at Marriage Builders, one of the only marriage programs that successfully motivates spouses to change their behavior.. Do you know that the program, when used, truly DOES restore the romantic love to your marriage? Do you know that MOST of the couples who show up for the MB program or counseling HAVE AT LEAST ONE RELUCTANT SPOUSE?? That is the rule rather than the exception.

You have been coming here since 2004 and have never availed yourself of these services here? WHY??

That is like going to MD Anderson with skin cancer, sitting in the lobby for 10 years griping instead of going INSIDE and getting treatment! Why won't you use this program??

Melody
I am utterly astonished that you have given up when you are at Marriage Builders,
My belief is I have to heal/repair myself before I can do anything that might help/work on another person/spouse.

History tells me, the more I want something, the less BB is willing to buy in to any program.

I just read Tuft's thread, most of it I could have also posted.

Seriously, dude?



What do you think this program is about?


"Repairing" yourself in the context of marriage is learning to meet your wife's needs, follow the PoJA, follow the PoUA, follow the PoRH, and avoid Love Busters.

That just sounds like a big ole fat excuse to not use the program that is sitting at your disposal. Heal yourself from what? Toe fungus?

I will add that when I see someone who has the same problem year after year, that they aren't truly looking for solutions.

If you want your marriage to get better, you have to look for solutions instead of excuses.

If you are not here to work on your marriage, then what are you doing here? If you have toe fungus or any other ailment, you can still work on your marriage simultaneously. There is no law that says that you have to work on your toe fungus FIRST before you work on your marriage. You won't go to jail for working on toe fungus while you work on your marriage. I promise!

These are the words of someone so withdrawn they have no interest in working on the marriage. If you still felt something for your W you'd realize you should be doing both ... working on yourself AND your M. If you focus entirely on yourself then this M is over.

OG, you aren't working the program. If you were you would have read up and asked long ago about your options. If you were talking to Dr. Harley I suspect he'd recommend a long Plan A (which you may have been doing all along) followed by a Plan B. Plan B isn't just for cases where there was infidelity. There are ways to rattle reluctant partners into action.

In Plan B you will have an opportunity to focus on yourself while protecting what little love you have left for your spouse. Your plan of self-focus is a plan that will more than likey lead you to Plan D.

I recommend you talk to the experts before you implement your own plan, a plan that looks like a recipe for disaster. The counselors here will be able to help you DO EVERYTHING possible to rectify the troubles in your M. The end results in doing the counseling could be a sort of Win or Win, get your M on track or do the optimal you can in trying to save it (giving you peace of mind should you decide to walk away).

BTW, you've been a member on this site almost as long as I have. I tried to implment this program on my own. Up until my W and I employed the counseling services late last year we never got on track. She was a reluctant partner (or I was horrible in helping get her on board). We both became so withdrawn from each other we needed to either dissolve the M or make a change. So she agreed to counseling (phew).

We just had a follow up Sunday night with Dr J (Jennifer Chalmers). She is a super counselor. Cuts to the quick( no futzing around talking about the past. DO THIS, DO THAT, DON'T DO THIS). I was extremely pleased to see my W take the lead on some of the tasks Dr J would like us to do in the next coming months. I feel we are a team now and I see no way our bond will ever be broken.

Wait. What healing of yourself do you need to do? That sounds like when people say they need to find themselves and blah blah blah.

The question is do you want your marriage to be a source of happiness or not. If so, you already know the steps to fix them. Do them or don't.

MrAlias
**These are the words of someone so withdrawn**they have no interest in working on the marriage. If you still felt something for your W you'd realize you should be doing both ... working on yourself AND your M. If you focus entirely on yourself then this M is over.

**The withdrawn part is true.** The second part related to no interest on my part is mostly due to what history has taught me, no expectation of improvements. I am inclined to think the no expectation part is 85% percent correct.


OG, you aren't working the program. If you were you would have read up and asked long ago about your options. If you were talking to Dr. Harley I suspect he'd recommend a long Plan A (which you may have been doing all along) followed by a Plan B. Plan B isn't just for cases where there was infidelity. There are ways to rattle reluctant partners into action.

I was doing a plan A then when that didn�t work, (BTW BB said she liked me doing plan �A� but it wasn�t enough for her and she couldn�t do XYZ because of her age, past history, etc, I went to plan W. Can�t give/get what isn�t there. That works on both sides, mine and BB�s.

In Plan B you will have an opportunity to focus on yourself while protecting what little love you have left for your spouse. Your plan of self-focus is a plan that will more than likey lead you to Plan D.

BB has a long list of what she can't or won't do/change. When someone tells you pantry is bare, I don't go looking for fixings for a turkey dinner. To expect more seems foolish.

Melody, I like a lot of what you say but bringing up an analogy such as a toe nail infection muddies the water. I work with what is. Drama or extreme styles are not my style.

MrAlias
Dr J (Jennifer Chalmers). She is a super counselor. Cuts to the quick( no futzing around talking about the past. DO THIS, DO THAT, DON'T DO THIS

Where on the forum can I find a bit more about Dr J?


kilted_thrower I don't need to find myself. I think I need to quit being a sucker/used by people that want me to do the work while they coast. Call it giver�s resentment because things didn�t turn out as expected.

og_lou, MrA was on here for years and didn't see his DJs. They were really subtle so we never picked up on them here on the board either. I also had a DJ issue that even through a divorce I didn't realize. There may be some really small self-sabotage things you are doing unknowingly too that you can change to affect the outcome.

MrA's point is that when your own methods don't work, you should accept that and try professional help. The Harley's specialize in bringing reluctant spouses on board. You could avail yourself of their methods.


Once again, seek professional help to sell her the program.


What you were saying is what is muddying the waters. Saying that you have to "work on yourself" is a meaningless excuse to avoid working on your marriage. I am sorry you don't like my style, but I am ok with that.

Do you want help with your marriage? If you are serious, we would be glad to help!

I'm curious as to how your wife's list of "things she cannot change" came about with you in Plan A.

You see... Plan A is done without expectations. You are meeting your wife's needs and avoiding Love Busters to draw her out of withdrawal.

But, if you are trying to meet her needs, and then you go "See, this is what I am doing... now I need you to _____." that is not Plan A. In fact, it could be said that it is a creatively disguised Selfish Demand. It is a tit-for-tat exchange. That isn't going to draw her out of withdrawal or sell her on Marriage Builders... in fact, when you do that you are presenting this program as a way to control her rather than a program to restore and maintain romantic love in your marriage.