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Interesting that you said "especially now that he is again gainfully employed". Last month my DD12 said that she thinks he's just faking everything because he doesn't have a job.
DD12 is very insightful. I added that phrase for a reason.
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BAD night. He said he would NOT go to a male doctor or a male hairdresser. He said I was "restricting" him and needed to "loosen up on the leash". He said it's "never enough". Wow, having a female doctor or female hairdresser is really more important to him than his wife's feelings? Aside from the fact that he just got done breaking his EPs with a female hairdresser, most males that I know or have known (even xWH) use male barbers and male doctors. Red flag. And yes, the fact that he has his female doctor come over for dinner is a another red flag regarding his interactions with women. I hope Dr Harley or the coach can get through to him. It's really disappointing that he would even need to be told these things, especially given that he is not clueless about MB and what MB is all about (eg Extraordinary Care,).
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But when he argues with me, it is as if he didn't even hear me at all. He has told me that he doesn't hear things right. It is like he gets in some kind of "mode". Do you know what arguments are? Arguments are trying to convince your spouse that his/her position is wrong and your position is right. Arguments are trying to forge a win/lose solution. This is how RENTERS function. How to adopt the BUYER'S rule? POJA, naturally. Guidelines for POJA
Guideline 1
Set ground rules to make negotiation pleasant and safe.
...Ground Rule 1 Try to be pleasant and cheerful throughout negotiations.
...Ground Rule 2 Put safety first. Don't make demands, show disrespect, or become angry when you negotiate, even if your partner makes demands, shows disrespect, or becomes angry with you.
...Ground Rule 3 If you reach an impasse and don't seem to be getting anywhere, or if one of you is starting to make demands, show disrespect, or become angry, stop negotiating and come back to the issue later.
~~~> In other words, do not succumb to the temptations of your Taker <~~~
Guideline 2
Identify the problem from both perspectives.
Very important point Harley makes ~~~> Most couples try to resolve a conflict without doing their homework. They don't fully understand the conflict itself, nor do they understand each other's perspectives. In many cases, they are not even sure what they really want or what they are enthusiastically willing to give.
Harley says
Respect is the key in this phase of negotiation.
It is extremely important to avoid trying to straighten each other out.
(~~~> OK .... anyone guilty of this raise your hand <~~~ *my hand is up*)
Guideline 3
Brainstorm with abandon
This is the creative part.
Look for mutually agreeable areas that will create compatability.
The goal is to please both of you.
Harley says
The secret to understanding your partner is to think like your partner's Taker thinks.
It's easy to appeal to your partner's Giver ~~~> if she really loves me, she'll let me do this. BUT, lasting peace must be forged with your partner's Taker, so your solutions must appeal to your partner's most selfish instincts. At the same time they must also appeal to your most selfish instincts.
VERY IMPORTANT POINT HERE***
Resist one type of solution that your Giver and Taker may suggest --- the I'll let you do what you want this time if you let me do what I want next time solution <~~~ That's the RENTER'S SOLUTION that encourages you to alternate sacrificing for each other. What do you bring to POJA? By that I mean, what mistakes & old bad habits will you be trying to dump in the future?If WH refuses to POJA ways to affair-proof your marriage ...what would your next step be?
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I am trying to remain calm. Just returned from lunch.
Lunch was pleasant until the end. My aunt called. He had called her and our MB coach. He said he didn't know what else to do. He told the coach that he will not change doctors.
My aunt offered to come down and visit because she went through a lot during her 40s as well.
I told him, "I don't think I've asked for anything unreasonable."
He asked, "So you don't think wanting me to change doctors is unreasonable?" I repeated my statement. He asked, "Do you want me to change doctors?" I said "yes"
He told me that it was never going to be enough, that he'd shave my head and stop going to the doctor if he thought that would work, but it wouldn't.
He said I was getting what I wanted. I had to keep pushing and pushing. Now I can call him a bag of #$$#, an adulterer, etc.
I told him I just wanted him to be willing to do what it takes to fix our marriage. I told him I wanted us to have a great marriage.
He said he doesn't have it in him. He told me to go see if Dr. Harley or HerPapaBear have a brother. Then he said he's not moving out of the house, so I needed to get in touch with my sister.
I'm pretty numb. Don't think I can work anymore today. Sorry, I think I'm going to leave. Will try to read everything later. Just trying to hold it together and will call our coach, though I think it is too late.
Last edited by StrongerMe; 04/18/13 01:30 PM.
me - 44
WH - 44
married 19 years
2 daughters - 15 & 13
D-day: 11/19/2012
Didn't find out until years later - A with coworker, 2008 & again in 2010 or 2011
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He asked, "So you don't think wanting me to change doctors is unreasonable?" I repeated my statement. He asked, "Do you want me to change doctors?" I said "yes"
He told me that it was never going to be enough, that he'd shave my head and stop going to the doctor if he thought that would work, but it wouldn't.
He said I was getting what I wanted. I had to keep pushing and pushing. Now I can call him a bag of #$$#, an adulterer, etc. My xWH took the cell phone once and threw it across the room and screamed about how I was "punishing" him for texts that other people sent him that were indicative of the fact that he was still have "friendly" relationships with women. (We were discussing EPs ~ he had gotten a text from a male coworker about how they should go down and visit xxx if he was at the hospital that day) Why would he gaslight me about this? Because he didn't REALLY want to make meaningful changes to protect me and our M. He didn't want to give up his IB. You can see from my signature line how that ended up. I hope you understand this isn't about actually changing the doctor. It is clear to me that LH doesn't really believe a lack of extraordinary care is what got your M into this place to begin with. The fact that he would talk to a coworker about OW is symbolic of this. He doesn't really think his interactions with women were ever a problem to being with and he is very resentful because he doesn't really want to have to make changes. If it wasn't this, it was going to come out in some other way. ((((StrongerMe))))
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Is he having another affair? Are you still checking his email/text messages?
Me: 34 BH
Her: 31 FWW
DD (6)
DS (3)
D-day 2/2/13
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Should've said he'd shave HIS head, not mine. When I left work I realized that at least he picked a good day - Today is 5 years to the day of the first time he said he was leaving me (then tried to lure skank to hotel).  Oh well...it is what it is. Unfortunately I had to use more PTO that I don't have. Already in the red because of my Jerry Springer life. I called him twice on the way home. The second time I said, "I love you. NO YOU DON'T I want us to have a great marriage. NO YOU DON'T" Blue would be LH's interruptions, so I just hung up. Tired of being treated this way. Tired of not being worth it. klove - I don't think he's having another affair. I do check his email and phone, but there was no evidence on either of those with skank anyway.
me - 44
WH - 44
married 19 years
2 daughters - 15 & 13
D-day: 11/19/2012
Didn't find out until years later - A with coworker, 2008 & again in 2010 or 2011
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Why would he gaslight me about this? Because he didn't REALLY want to make meaningful changes to protect me and our M. He didn't want to give up his IB. You can see from my signature line how that ended up.
I hope you understand this isn't about actually changing the doctor. It is clear to me that LH doesn't really believe a lack of extraordinary care is what got your M into this place to begin with. The fact that he would talk to a coworker about OW is symbolic of this.
He doesn't really think his interactions with women were ever a problem to being with and he is very resentful because he doesn't really want to have to make changes.
If it wasn't this, it was going to come out in some other way.
((((StrongerMe)))) I know. The Maya Angelou quote comes to mind: "The first time someone shows you who they are, believe them." And this is way beyond the first time... I just googled her actually and there's lots of good ones: "Never make someone a priority when all you are to them is an option." "Stepping onto a brand-new path is difficult, but not more difficult than remaining in a situation, which is not nurturing to the whole woman." It is sad because I really do love him. I really want a great marriage. I really believe that we could have it. But, when he tells me he doesn't have it in him, I need to believe THAT and ACCEPT it.
me - 44
WH - 44
married 19 years
2 daughters - 15 & 13
D-day: 11/19/2012
Didn't find out until years later - A with coworker, 2008 & again in 2010 or 2011
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Have you called your coach yet? What were you advised to do?
I doubt it's a good idea to be calling him twice to say you love him. Let him do the pursuing. Let him prove his worth as a husband to you.
Pepperband has in threads here and there on this forum the words "I am certain..." It has to do with the difference between an ultimatum, "If you do this, or don't do this, I will do this," and your own personal boundary, which is "I am certain that I will not live in an unsafe marriage." "I am certain that I will not live in a loveless marriage."
Married 1980
DDay Nov 2010
Recovered thanks to Marriage Builders
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I called the coach, but had to leave a message.
I am certain that I will not live in an unsafe marriage.
me - 44
WH - 44
married 19 years
2 daughters - 15 & 13
D-day: 11/19/2012
Didn't find out until years later - A with coworker, 2008 & again in 2010 or 2011
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It is sad because I really do love him. I really want a great marriage. I really believe that we could have it. But, when he tells me he doesn't have it in him, I need to believe THAT and ACCEPT it. I'm not sure I'd agree that you should "accept" what someones taker blurts out in the middle of a conflict. As you already know, we just had a long talk (LH & me). He's still got a long way to go, but I have no doubt he's committed to you and your marriage. This program works and yes, it's sometimes one step forward and two steps back..... but, from where you both started to where you are now.... You've both come a long way! I'm praying for both of you! Ask your coach to help you both set up safe boundaries for having discussions. You both need the ability to stop certain conversations before one of you hurt the other. You must BOTH keep each other safe during conversations. Conversation boundaries and exit plans are critical. Talk to Sandy about this!
Last edited by HerPapaBear; 04/18/13 04:01 PM.
Recovery began 10/07;
Meeting my wife's EN's is my "thank you" that refuses to be silenced.
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It is sad because I really do love him. I really want a great marriage. I really believe that we could have it. But, when he tells me he doesn't have it in him, I need to believe THAT and ACCEPT it. I'm not sure I'd agree that you should "accept" what someones taker blurts out in the middle of a conflict. As you already know, we just had a long talk (LH & me). He's still got a long way to go, but I have no doubt he's committed to you and your marriage. This program works and yes, it's sometimes one step forward and two steps back..... but, from where you both started to where you are now.... You've both come a long way! I'm praying for both of you! Ask your coach to help you both set up safe boundaries for having discussions. You both need the ability to stop certain conversations before one of you hurt the other. You must BOTH keep each other safe during conversations. Conversation boundaries and exit plans are critical. Talk to Sandy about this! I actually didn't know y'all had talked. I knew he was talking to someone when I got home, but he has yet to speak to me or acknowledge my presence. The thing is, he didn't blurt this out in anger. He was VERY cold, as he usually is. He's told me that he has meant it every time he said he wanted a divorce. I thought our lunch was going well. Then when my aunt called, LH told me that they wanted to come visit this weekend to talk to me. My aunt told LH she went through a lot in her 40s. When he started his stuff, I didn't have an AO or DJ. He told Sandy that he refused to stop seeing his female doctor. Has he changed his mind? I don't know - like I said, he has yet to speak to me. And it's not so much about the female doctor anyway - it is his ATTITUDE. I have strong doubts as to how committed he is. I've tried to be patient. There are MANY things that have happened that I haven't posted about. I expect "hiccups" and backward steps. But I'm just SICK of this!! To me the only "safe boundary" will be for me to keep all complaints and concerns to myself, "stop talking" and give plenty of SF. Then again, he turned down SF the other day because how could I love him if I won't let him see his mother? Sorry. I appreciate you SO much, but WHEN is he going to be able to do this without CONSTANT reassurance and having to talk to you to get back on board? When will it be enough for his own wife to tell him how much I love him, how much I want to have a great marriage? He'll say I "jab", "push",etc, but when I sincerely ask him what I did so that I can correct it, he'll either say he doesn't know or I really didn't do anything. I've asked him to order a biofeedback device. I am VERY discouraged.
me - 44
WH - 44
married 19 years
2 daughters - 15 & 13
D-day: 11/19/2012
Didn't find out until years later - A with coworker, 2008 & again in 2010 or 2011
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What do you bring to POJA? By that I mean, what mistakes & old bad habits will you be trying to dump in the future?
My mistakes and bad habits:
I try to "straighten him out". I know this is disrespectful, and I believe that for the past 2 months I have consistently corrected myself when I do it overtly. However, being truly successful is hampered by the next 3 bad habits.
Female logorrhea - thinking that if I talk long enough, I can eventually say things just the *right way* that the person in front of you will *get it*, and make the appropriate changes. I have not corrected this at all.
Arguing with a gas-lighting statement. I avoid this about half the time.
Thinking my way is the best - "my way or the highway". LH has told me I have this approach. It is difficult for me to respect his viewpoint when he tells me that I am restricting him, or that he should go into multiple bars to treat alcoholism. I say the words that I respect his opinion and respectfully disagree, but I inside I don't "respectfully" disagree. I'd say it is very much related to female logorrhea - and I haven't corrected it.
If WH refuses to POJA ways to affair-proof your marriage ...what would your next step be?
I am certain that I will not lie in an unsafe marriage. I am not afraid to be alone. I don't want to waste any more of my life.
Last edited by StrongerMe; 04/18/13 05:20 PM.
me - 44
WH - 44
married 19 years
2 daughters - 15 & 13
D-day: 11/19/2012
Didn't find out until years later - A with coworker, 2008 & again in 2010 or 2011
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I created some big problems at times during our recovery by not watching carefully the things I said. I was angry with him, very disrespectful at times, and said just way too many words. Lots of enemies of good conversation.
This became a problem. Finally I contacted our coach and suggested that the next lesson I wanted to work on, with the enthusiastic agreement of H, was the EN of conversation. I needed some accountability. She and I decided that I would start using the corresponding worksheet from Five Steps and pinpoint the friends and enemies of conversation that I would work on.
I would think about that worksheet every day while we were together. I didn't want to do anything that I would then have to write down on that list. I didn't want my H to have anything to write down on that list either.
We agreed together that my H would (always gently) say when the conversation was getting into dangerous territory, that he was beginning to feel unhappy about where this was going. And then I would HAVE to stop and change directions. This was our agreement.
I worked on creating nice and enjoyable conversations. For a while, avoiding the enemies of good conversation was a moment by moment decision. As I became more successful at this and our marriage improved in this and in other areas, this became a habit that was reinforced by all the positive feedback.
The thing is -the way you are communicating with your H isn't helping. It's hurting you and him and driving you both crazy.
Married 1980
DDay Nov 2010
Recovered thanks to Marriage Builders
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He said he doesn't have it in him. He told me to go see if Dr. Harley or HerPapaBear have a brother. Then he said he's not moving out of the house, so I needed to get in touch with my sister. He seriously played the "I'm leaving" card again? Good grief... 
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Yep, he seriously did. And he threatened again tonight, even after he convinced HPB that he was committed. So after an hour and a half of exhausting "discussion" and asking me "when is it going to end?", he has said he doesn't want a divorce and won't go to the female doctor. I told him that me expecting him to stick to strict boundaries around women would never end. Now he says he's ok with that, even though he's been arguing with me about it? Then he added that he just won't get a yearly physical anymore, he'll just wait 10 years. I called him on that and he retracted it. So I succeeded in "talking him out of it". Now I feel pathetic that HPB and I have to convince my own husband to stay with me. And I failed to correct female logorrhea. So, now I feel I have a good few weeks until the next time. I'm really exhausted. I also refused a hug from him. Feeling really cynical right now. How can I hug a man who told me twice today that he wanted a divorce? So, now that he says he doesn't I'm supposed to believe it? WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO BELIEVE? WHAT IS TRUE?!  I am certain that I will not continue to live this way. I don't know how to fix it though.
me - 44
WH - 44
married 19 years
2 daughters - 15 & 13
D-day: 11/19/2012
Didn't find out until years later - A with coworker, 2008 & again in 2010 or 2011
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SM
Longhaul needs to be his own jailer. Not you.
I'm reading all of these posts about how "you" won't "let" him do things (
Mother, doctor, hairdresser). These are all things HE should have thought of and implemented without throwing a hissy fit. Sheesh.
When are you getting to the POJA part of the course?
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So, I declined his hug last night. What has happened since?
He didn't sleep in our bed. I'm working at home today. He took the girls to school, didn't tell my good-bye and is STILL not home - 2 hours later. School trip should've take 35 minutes, tops.
Haven't heard from him either.
me - 44
WH - 44
married 19 years
2 daughters - 15 & 13
D-day: 11/19/2012
Didn't find out until years later - A with coworker, 2008 & again in 2010 or 2011
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Posts: 3,146
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So, I declined his hug last night. What has happened since?
He didn't sleep in our bed. I'm working at home today. He took the girls to school, didn't tell my good-bye and is STILL not home - 2 hours later. School trip should've take 35 minutes, tops.
Haven't heard from him either. I pray he get's his head out of his hinney soon! He keeps behaving as if he's the victim in all of this rather than the perp!
Recovery began 10/07;
Meeting my wife's EN's is my "thank you" that refuses to be silenced.
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It seems as if he will only learn the hard way, by losing all he has got.
BW
Married 1989
His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
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