�Do you remember what I said about money and about the men who seek to reverse the law of cause and effect? The men who try to replace the mind by seizing the products of the mind? Well, the man who despises himself tries to gain self- esteem from sexual adventures�which can�t be done, because sex is not the cause, but an effect and an expression of a man�s sense of his own value.�

�You�d better explain that.�

�Did it ever occur to you that it�s the same issue? The men who think that wealth comes from the material resources and has no intellectual root or meaning, are the men who think�for the same reason�that sex is a physical capacity which functions independently of ones mind, choice or code of values. They think that your body creates a desire and makes a choice for you just about in some such way as if iron ore transformed itself into railroad rails of its own volition. Love is blind, they say; sex is impervious to reason and mocks the power of all philosophers. But, in fact, a man�s sexual choice is the result and the sum of his fundamental convictions. Tell me what a man finds sexually attractive and I will tell you his entire philosophy on life. Show me the woman he sleeps with and I will tell you his valuation of himself. No matter what corruption he�s taught about the virtue of selflessness, sex is the most profoundly selfish of all acts, an act which he cannot perform for any motive but his own enjoyment�just try to think of performing it in a spirit of selfless charity!�an act which is not possible in self-abasement, only in self-exaltation, only in confidence of being desired and being worthy of desire. It is an act that forces him to stand naked in spirit, as well as in body, and to accept his real ego as his standard of value. He will always be attracted to the woman who reflects his deepest vision of himself, the woman whose surrender permits him to experience�or to fake�a sense of self-esteem. The man who is proudly certain of his own value, will want the highest type of woman he can find, the woman he admires, the strongest, the hardest to conquer � because only the possession of a heroine will give him the sense of an achievement, not the possession of a brainless slut. He does not seek to . . . what�s the matter?� he asked, seeing the look on Rearden�s face, a look of intensity much beyond mere interest in an abstract discussion.

�Go on,� said Rearden tensely.

�He does not seek to gain his value, he seeks to express it. There is no conflict between the standards of his mind and the desires of his body. But the man who is convinced of his own worthlessness will be drawn to a woman he despises�because she will reflect his own secret self, she will release him from that objective reality in which he is a fraud, she will give him a momentary illusion of his own value and a momentary escape from the morel code that damns him. Observe the ugly mess which most men make of their sex lives�and observe the mess of contradictions which they hold as their moral philosophy. One proceeds from the other. Love is our response to our highest values�and can be nothing else. Let a man corrupt his values and his view of existence, let him profess that love is not self-enjoyment but self-denial, that virtue consists, not of pride, but of pity or pain or weakness or sacrifice, that the noblest love is born, not of admiration, but of charity, not in response to values, but in response to flaws�and he will have cut himself in two. His body will not obey him, it will not respond, it will make him impotent toward the woman he professes to love and draw him to the lowest type of whore he can find. His body will always follow the ultimate logic of his deepest convictions; if he believes that flaws are values, he has damned existence as evil and only the evil will attract him. He has damned himself and he will feel that depravity is all he is worthy of enjoying. He has equated virtue with pain and he will feel that vice is the only realm of pleasure. Then he will scream that his body has vicious desires of its own which his mind cannot conquer, that sex is sin, that true love is a pure emotion of the spirit. And then he will wonder why love brings him nothing but boredom, and sex�nothing but shame.�

Rearden said slowly, looking off, not realizing that he was thinking aloud, �At least . . . I�ve never accepted that other tenet . . . I�ve never felt guilty about making money.�

Francisco missed the significance of the first two words; he smiled and said eagerly, �You do see that it�s the same issue? No, you�d never accept any part of their vicious creed. You wouldn�t be able to force it upon yourself. If you tried to damn sex as evil, you�d still find yourself, against your will, acting on the proper moral premise. You�d be attracted to the highest woman you met. You�d always want a heroine. You�d be incapable of self-contempt. You�d be unable to believe that existence is evil and that you�re a helpless creature caught in an impossible universe. You�re the man who�s spent his life shaping matter to the purpose of his mind. You�re the man who would know that just as an idea unexpressed in physical action is contemptible hypocrisy, so is platonic love�and just as physical action unguided by an idea is a fool�s self-fraud, so is sex when cut off from one�s code of values. Its� the same issue, and you would know it. Your inviolate sense of self-esteem would know it. You would be incapable of desire for a woman you despised. Only the man who extols the purity of a love devoid of desire, is capable of the depravity of a desire devoid of love. But observe that most people are creatures cut in half who keep swinging desperately to one side or to the other. One kind of half is the man who despises money, factories, skyscrapers and his own body. He holds undefined emotions about non-conceivable subjects as the meaning of life and his claim of virtue. And he cries with despair, because he can feel nothing for the woman he respects, but finds himself in bondage to an irresistible passion for a slut from the gutter. He is the man whom people call an idealist. The other kind of half is the man whom people call practical, the man who despises principles, abstractions, art, philosophy and his own mind. He regards the acquisition of material objects as the only goal of existence� and he laughs at the need to consider their purpose or their source. He expects them to give him pleasure� and he wonders why the more he gets, the less he feels. He is the man who spends his time chasing women. Observe the triple fraud which he perpetrates upon himself. He will not acknowledge his need of self-esteem, since he scoffs at such a concept as moral values; yet he feels the profound self-contempt which comes from believing that he is a piece of meat. He will not acknowledge, but he knows that sex is the physical expression of a tribute to personal values. So he tries, by going through the motions of the effect, to acquire that which should have been the cause. He tries to gain a sense of his own value from the women who surrender to him� and he forgets that the women he picks have neither character nor judgment nor standard of value. he tells himself that all he�s after is physical pleasure� but observe that he tires of his woman in a week or a night, that he despises professional whores and that he loves to imagine he is seducing virtuous girls who make a great exception for his sake. It is the feeling of achievement that he seeks and never finds. What glory can there be in the conquest of a mindless body? Now that is your woman chaser. Does the description fit me?

�God, no!�

�Then you can judge, without asking my word for it, how much chasing of women I�ve done in my life.��


==============================

Francisco�s speech, Atlas Shrugged pg 453 - 455, by Ayn Rand.

Any thoughts?

Great Book, could have done without the infidelity though.

�There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old�s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged . One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.�
- John Rogers

But what about what Francisco said HHH?
Is there truth or facts in his speech?

Love that! I thought this was HHHs answer.

I think Dr. Harley has answered a lot of different philosophies and has observed reality and how I understand it is that if a man is inclined to pursue women at all, he courts the ones that continue to show that she is able and willing to meet those needs.

Any rationalizations for infidelity, as I'm sure you've experienced, are inherently flawed by the premise that in some instances it's acceptable.

Same here, but it does show that the affair is a temporal relationship.

Dagney, IIRC, does fall for the ideal man.

She engages in the affair with Rearden, but ultimately she falls for John Galt. It's been a while since I read it, but I don't think Galt was married.

So at least the affair with Rearden is not the final state. Dagney appears to move on.

Or maybe I just want to believe that.

Do you feel that there are? If so, and you are very grounded in it any protests I present won't waver your position much.

I think it's a load of tripe. But, I favor sociobiology and evolutionary psychology over behavioral economic theory. Not that behavioral economics is bad in and of itself, just that it often over-estimates incentive in behavior - where theories like operant conditioning show that consistent reward is susceptible to habituation and thus extinction of the behavior.


Though, like Franciso here - I've never been one to pursue. I ain't got this pretty peacock's coat for nothin!

Important to put Ayn Rand in the context of her own experience. I also grew up in a socialist country where I saw people's reactions to behavioural incentives all the time.

People do behave in very rational ways but sometimes you have to stop and think what incentive they are responding to.

It is not always obvious.

On the contrary, people behave in very irrational ways.


Though, there are some behavioral economists that have tried to decode the irrational behavior. Daniel Ariely, for instance, even wrote a book; Predictably Irrational.


Freakonomics and Super Freakonomics are two books which tend to heavily favor the behavior vs incentive construct, though. Both entertaining reads.

I don't think folks behave irrationally at all. It's just that different folks place different values on the various aspects of a decision.

To use MB, one has to believe that folks behave rationally. I.E. they will behave in the fashion that leads to the fullest love bank.

Dr Harley's plans to break up an affair depend on rational behaviors. He knows that affairs can't stand the test of time. But also recognizes that the betrayed spouse must address his side of the street so he's a more appealing choice than the affair partner once the fantasy of the affair begins to fade away.

I think folks do behave rationally based on their current set of values and needs.

It's just we don't all agree on what those values are. Each of us has our own unique take on those values.

"Tell me what a man finds sexually attractive and I will tell you his entire philosophy on life. Show me the woman he sleeps with and I will tell you his valuation of himself."

I have been thinking about this for weeks and I now understand it.

The question is: Why try to Plan A and win back a wayward spouse that shows no care for you? What values are present in the wayward that are attractive?