Lou, you missed my whole point. You are sitting there thinking you worked the perfect Plan A and your W is still behaving the same way. BTDT. I doubt you�ll get your sich turned around asking us to help you. Heck you didn�t even come here looking for answers did you? You were looking for us to � what? Empathize and agree Plan W is what would be best?

I spent countless hours here reading posts and posting (some three thousand posts before hiring Dr J) and getting advice and trying to implement the program and venting and getting blasted and shown the way and blah blah blah ��. Little bits changed but the one thing that didn�t change is MY WIFE DIDN�T FALL MADLY IN LOVE WITH ME!!!!!!!! Ergo my needs continued to be met in a minimal, unacceptable fashion.

I tried Plan W for over 12 months. Let me save you the headache/heartache. Don�t do it!!!!!!!!!!!!

My sich isn�t like yours and yet it is. I have no idea what you�d need to do to get your W on board. She sounds like a tough nut to crack. I do think your best option is not Plan W (headed for Plan D) but rather an attempt to work with your W with a professional doing a great Plan A. The professionals will direct you where to go, what to do. I suggested Plan B earlier but that was a hair trigger response based only on what I gathered from your post. I�m probably putting the cart before the horse there. The Pro�s will give you better advice.


So did my W. [sarcasm]My favorite one [Mrs.Alias] I will never want to have SF with you more than once a week. NEVER! [Mr.Alias] Ouch.

And now that we've been in counseling it's changing. Funny how when you're in love what you are and aren't willing to do changes. Won�t is one thing � can�t is something entirely different. As far as can�t� If there are things she truly CANNOT do then once you are in love you and her will want to brainstorm and POJA different ways to make each other happy. Find alternatives, etc.


You won't find much hence why I put in my opinion of her. She is the Harleys daughter. I just love her no nonsense approach.


Call the experts today ... start by yourself if you have to. Scheduling Link

Here's a show on Co-dependency.
Radio Clip on Co-dependency

I did not replied earlier because I had minor surgery (Varicocelectomy, the surgical correction of a varicocele/essentially the same process as varicose veins) and was OK for a couple of days, then it hit me. Major swelling, tenderness, and other issues that the Dr. said was normal but I didn�t know this until 3 days AFTER the surgery. I am mobile again.

NewEveryDay
There may be some really small self-sabotage things you are doing unknowingly too that you can change to affect the outcome.

I know I do some things that irritate BB. From my POV a few things I do wrong makes all of the good things I do right and for her seems like it doesn�t amount to much of anything unless everything is perfect, it is never good enough.

HoldHerHand
I'm curious as to how your wife's list of "things she cannot change" came about with you in Plan A

At one time during plan A, BB said she appreciated all that I do for her. I asked if she was happier and if we could get back to the way things were before. She said she can�t or didn�t want to do (the list) because she was too old, was tired of doing it, and learned in her Co-Dependency No More that a person has to do what they want and not do what they don�t want to do.

HoldHerHand
You see... Plan A is done without expectations. You are meeting your wife's needs and avoiding Love Busters to draw her out of withdrawal.

Most of my plan was without much expectation at first, then the more I did, the less she wanted to do herself. My giver gave out.

A while ago, if we went out to eat, she would complain about something. I would try to do a mini-POJA. I would ask her where she wanted to eat. She said I should choose and when I did she would veto my suggestions. Then I would suggest 3 more places to eat and BB would have something negative to say about those places. Over a couple of years of this type of negativity, I had enough.

One time we reached the agreed upon place and she didn�t want to go in. I said we needed to go back home if going out to eat was going to cause this much fuss. I drove towards home but on the way BB said she wanted something from a local take-out place. That is what we did.

Something similar happened when I cook, she complained. A couple of times, the plate I fixed for her she made several negative complaints. I always fix her pate first. I took back plate and ate the food. I said I didn't find any of the problems she was concerned about. It took a couple of times of doing this till the complaints declined. I do most of the food shopping / managing / cooking and serving. I clean as I cook.

This issue is one of the items on BB�s list that she said she can�t or doesn�t want to do any longer except on rare occasion.

(thinking out loud)
If I have to have no expectations when I am doing plan A and this happened again, I don�t know why anyone would agree to be used.

To me it sounds too much like I am the parent taking care of a cranky/entitled teenager around 13 yrs old.

Even after my recent surgery and severe swelling, etc, I am still taking care of BB while she watches TV most of the day.

I will admit to falling into the care-taker mode. Yes, that is my problem.


MrAlias
I doubt you�ll get your sich turned around asking us to help you.

I Agree.

MrAlias
Heck you didn�t even come here looking for answers did you? You were looking for us to � what? Empathize and agree Plan W is what would be best?

I came here looking for answers for me. Answers regarding BB, I have been told are beyond my influence.

I don�t want anyone to agree to plan W. All I said was that is where I am now and I posted why I am there.

Thinking this through and taking in to account what is posted on MB, my advice to myself would go back to the conflict stage. After all I do avoid conflict. I even go into care taking mode to avoid conflict. My bad.

BrainHurts
Radio Clip on Co-dependency

Aha, something I can use maybe, thanks. I haven't listened to the radio clip. Well maybe I did or read something similar 8 yrs ago.

Your best option is to hire the services of the good folks in this program.

You and your W have a horrible dynamic going where her Taker can't get enough and you're in avoidance/sacrifice/Giver mode.

You need help establishing better habits/reactions to your W's behavior. Maybe even need help in doing a Plan B that'll rattle your W's patterns.

And she needs the counseling services to get her to see where her thoughts on codependency are skewed and are taking her to the unhealthy marital place she is.

Your withdrawal is the worst kind of withdrawal there is. You�ve withdrawn emotionally yet you continue to give and sacrifice on all of the physical tasks. Your W hasn�t felt the pain of truly being withdrawn from you. As a matter of fact she�s benefitted from your emotional withdrawal. You�ve stopped asking for your needs to be met and yet continue to give.

BrainHurts
I listened to the Co-Dependency radio clip and agree with what was said. BB sees co-dependency a bit differently.

Mr. Alias
I agree with most of what you posted, especially the avoider part. Part of my avoiding is linked to people say they are afraid of me because I am tall/big and thy feel threated. I try to suppress my emotions so they don't feel threatened but people say they can read through what ever I am trying to control.

OTH, maybe sometimes they use that as an excuse to not do something they don't want to do or keep doing what pleases them.

I read most of what I could find about withdraw-conflict and POJA.

No offense but I really didn't need to read what came after the "is linked to". Your reasons for avoiding could be countless. The question is ... what are you going to do about those behaviors?

You certainly can't keep going like you are (you can but oh boy). You need an action plan. You need to do something different. What will that be?

Are you going to call the coaching center?

Or the very least, what about emailing the Harleys?

Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. When your email question is chosen to be answered on the radio show, you will be notified by email directing you to listen to the rebroadcast. If you would like to consider being a caller, include your telephone number. You will be called by us to explain the procedure to you. Every caller will receive a complementary book by Dr. Harley that addresses their question.

MrAlias, Brain Hurts, I hear what you are suggesting.

One concern I have is BB might think I am going behind her back if I do as suggested. OTH, I wouldn't lose much compared to what is happening now. I admit being mentally stuck.

Concern #2 is some people (BB in this case) remember everything I ever did wrong, will bring it up and it sounds like I am the problem, not her.

I also know/think/guess I won't ever get my EN met no matter what.

BrainHurts, emailing the Harleys? I could write what the issues have been, what I want as a goal, and list what BB said she doesn't want or won't/can't do. It would be a long list and look as it would be impossible to have a favorable to both parties outcome.

I am saying this because I can write a long list but would that be appropriate considering the radio program's time considerations? If I did a list with examples it would take me time to compose it and I know I would leave some important things out. I could also make a list of things and events that BB said why she sees me as the main problem and not her. I am kind of tired of playing the blame game.

You have nothing to lose and everything to gain..

Nonsense. This is just you being a conflict avoider. You need to stop this. Keep one thing in mind. Your goal in all of this is to change yourself not her. Doing so will show her a path to a better M and entice her to join you in a mutually romantic, loving R. YOU CANNOT CONTROL HER so stop thinking this is just you trying to manipulate her.

What did you think you were going to say to her? � I don�t like you and your horrible ways so I�m seeking a counselor who will help me force you to change.�.

No. You simply tell her you are looking for ways to improve the marriage and that by doing so SHE�LL gain for the work you do. Then you let the counselors direct you down a path to a better M. They know more about your situation and what to do to fix it than you will ever know.

I am sorry to say but you don�t know Jack. Hold your head up Lou. I am happy to say there is an answer to your troubles. Take the reins and start making some changes TODAY!


Joyce and Dr. Harley will cut through all the blah blah blah you are going to put in this long list. Feel free to send whatever you think is relevant. They will pick up on the key points and use that in their address to your situation.

Lou you are so stuck in all your junk that you can�t even see what�s important or why things are the way they are or what to do to get out. You are lost and need someone to guide you.

You can start by simply emailing the Harleys. The little bit of time they�ll have to address your sich may give you some insights. But IMHO I think you need a guide and an accountability coach to help you change your behaviors. You need a healthy Taker and in times of need must control your Giver. You are sacrificing at every turn (sacrifice has no place in M). I mean you just had minor surgery and you are still being the caregiver while you heal. This type of stuff is messed up and this will bring out your unhealthy Taker.

We all have made mistakes and we all have some skeletons in our closet. None of us are perfect.

The MB program teaches you to be progressive, move forward and not look to the past. Certainly we need to learn from our past mistakes but we do that by using all of the tools Dr Harley provides to help us move forward. Once you have a loving MB M you and her will discuss mistakes and conflicts and learn to negotiate how best to resolve them. You will work together to help each other grow. Complaints in a loving, happy M are a good thing BTW. They are a prerequisite to improvement.

MrAlias
Lou you are so stuck in all your junk that you can�t even see what�s important or why things are the way they are or what to do to get out. You are lost and need someone to guide you.

You can start by simply emailing the Harleys. The little bit of time they�ll have to address your sich may give you some insights. But IMHO I think you need a guide and an accountability coach to help you change your behaviors. You need a healthy Taker and in times of need must control your Giver.
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I agree with what you posted and after reading, Aia1's, "I need help" post #2721443, by DidntQuit, I can say I don't have plan B worked out.

It is my opinion plan "A" doesn't work if a person doesn't have plan "B" formulated or is reluctant to put plan "B" in to practice.

I have started a history letter. Plan "A" and "B" ????

OGLou, can you be more specific about this? Are you talking about the letter you are sending to the Harleys? If so, I wouldn't get too deep. About 4-5 paragraphs tops. And they don't usually recommend Plan B for men in these situations.

If a Plan A is implemented it can make a difference.
If a Plan B is implemented after a very good Plan A it can make a difference.

A formulated Plan B or reluctance to do Plan B at the time a Plan A is being executed has zero impact on Plan A. Do Plan A first. Throw all your focus, all your energy at it.

If Plan A doesn't work. You have options.

OG. I hope that something I said helped. I don't remember saying Plan B anywhere. A separation does not always mean Plan B. I was just saying that sometimes shock value in a crisis is a good object lesson. Like Mel said, Dr. Harley doesn't usually recommend Plan B for men.

If you are starting to compose a history letter for Dr. Harley, that is good. If it's a letter for your wife, then it should be a LOVE letter. A simple, clear hopeful letter, expressing your love, and your hope for change, that it is painful for you to go on like this.

But as others have urged, please write the radio show.

Sorry-

I see that you must have read LoveBusters. Maybe read it again? Because she doesn't believe that books don't solve problems. I would think that if she saw changes in your attitude toward her, she would believe that books solve problems. That's why everyone is telling you to get coaching or email the Harleys.

It doesn't sound like a separation will make you happy. But it would make HER happy. That's what she's been trying to tell YOU. What are YOU doing that makes her want to run away from you?


ETA:

OG-

I don't want you to feel attacked, because after all, you were willing to come here for help. But are YOU willing to change? How you take being challenged is often representative of your willingness to learn. Try out following the advice that everyone has given you. Your wife wants to separate from you anyway. What's the worst that can happen? You NEED help.

Oops..What I meant to say is that she said she doesn't believe that books "DO SOLVE" problems.

So if you read Tuft's thread, then you read this:


I'm not so great at nutshelling it. But #1 was what I was trying to refer to with reading Lovebusters. Then do #2 by trying to please her even if you don't get the brownie points your daughter and grand kids give you.

Hopefully it will be enough to make her consider that the RIGHT books and psychologist might have rules to solve problems in marriage. Or at least she will feel safe enough to open up and let you know what her real ENs are. My husband never felt comfortable saying. And that wasn't ALL my fault, but there was a lot that I could have done to help the situation and stay off a destructive path paved with my own Lovebusters.