Thanks, Markos. I appreciate you helping validate my thoughts. I agree. I am seeing that you can't win in these types of debates.

Clearmind has spoken to MIL several times and things seem to just get worse. My MIL was very disrespectful to me after my AO to her. It is difficult for clearmind to take this path as she thinks everything is all her fault. I have assured her that I don't think that. Everyone, including MIL, FIL have to be accountable for their own decisions in where we are today.

You have given me a lot to think about and to discuss the best way to handle this. Seems like clearmind and I have been the only one apologizing to the family--MIL, SIL, BIL, FIL for some of the decisions that have negatively effected us since this whole nightmare started...no one.

I for one am done apologizing.

Good point.

Now this is encouraging to here. My goal completely.

BTW, I mentioned Love Busters had a good chapter on in-laws; I remembered that His Needs, Her Needs For Parents also has a good chapter on it.

It's not surprising that your MIL would be disrespectful to you after you had an angry outburst at her. That said, you don't have to stand for disrespect over mistakes of the past for the rest of your life.

Note: if angry outbursts are a regular concern, I'm assuming you know this is very serious and you need to do something about it! Angry outbursts were a perfectly normal way for me to relate to my dad - three years ago. They are not today.

I wouldn't pressure clearmind to say much more to her parents at all. If you don't want to go to where they live, then don't; if you don't want her to see her parents without you, let her know. If you are fine inviting the two of them to come see you, then do so. If they have a problem with that, they don't come. There doesn't need to be any explaining or justifying. It's as simple as that.

MIL: "Will you come see us July 4th?"
You or clearmind: "Sorry, we can't come out there. Would you like to come see us here? Would you like to meet in X City?"
MIL: "You should start coming to see us again. Don't you think it's time to get over this? You are really being foolish. After all, the affair was as much your fault as hers."
You or clearmind: "I'm not going to discuss this. Let us know if you want to come see us." <HANG UP>

The next time they talk, if they bring up the past or try to pressure you, you tell them you don't want them telling you what to do any more and don't want to see them until they agree to quit telling you what to do. And if it comes to that I would not go out of my way to enable them to have a relationship with the grandkids that doesn't include me.

This is what Dr. Harley told me:

Thank you for all your input. It has been marinating with me the last few days. This issue must be addressed right away. My mindset is slowing changing to not think I have to justify myself, our R and our decisions with in-laws.


We plan to draft a letter together this evening to share with them what we need from them.

Over the last week and a half this issue has interfered with our UA time. Clearmind (and understandably so) has been preoccupied in her mind about her folks. Honestly, this is my main concern right now. She told me that she needs more from me right now through this phase of our R (with her parents). I plan to learn more about this tonight and focus on her more.

She feels like she is losing her parents. I am encouraging her that this is NOT her fault. She is carrying the weight around on her shoulders that she caused all of this. My encouragement has been that her parents have also made decisions contributing to the state of our relationship with them as well.

I hope there comes a day when we can put all this ugliness behind us. Many more hurtles to jump though.

And she may be. This is a very painful thing she is doing to protect you and your marriage. Comfort her.

Hopefully, her parents will do the right thing.

I think they will.

20year, you posted this on RNR's thread


How exactly do you go about doing that? I ask because I don't get any reassurance from Kiss and I would feel so much better if I did

Thanks

At the end of every day she says something to the effect "I want you to know that I do not have a SSL, no secret email accounts, have had no encounters with anyone of the opposite sex, no secret phone, no inappropriate behavior, no one making LB deposits except you"

She has a running calendar that she documents our UA time every day. She also has a graph calculating UA time for each week.

She tells me when she leaves the house in the morning, when she gets to work, when she goes to lunch, when she gets back to her desk, when she leaves to go home etc. Multiple times during the day she reassures me by telling me she is thinking about me and loves me

I have access to her work computer, phone, email, everything. And in turn, she does mine as well.

She has developed a great deal of empathy and I love her for it. All these things make LB deposits. We use the POJA and PORH for every portion of our lives.

I appreciate you sharing that. Kiss is nowhere near that informative with me about where he goes, who he talks to, etc during his day at work.

I understand.

Clearmind and I didn't get to this level of communication and empathy by chance or by it just happening on its own! No little Honesty Faries landed on her shoulder and magically made either of us do these things.


POJA, PORH

XXYH,
Was there a point in the early stages of your process when CM made it clear to you that she was "signing up" to a recovery plan (obviously, most likely MB's)?

Unfortunately NG, it was upon my discovery that I was in a FR.

Only when I found out that she never had stopped lying to me after d-day (9mo�s earlier) and then subsequently, I made it eminently clear that we were completely done and our M was over did she commit to a plan for R. Certainly not text book MB progression after discovery.

However, we are doing very well now.

This is one of the reasons I stick around on the forum�.to help others avoid a FR and give others hope that even under the most difficult of situations, R is possible with 2 willing people.

Certainly not text book MB progression after discovery.

I agree with that statement.

I made it eminently clear that we were completely done and our M was over did she **not** commit to a plan for R...we are doing very well now.

This is exactly what I suspected, my friend. (I believe the edit is what you meant to say. If not, please advise.)

R is possible with 2 willing people.

**EDIT**

Only when I found out that she never had stopped lying to me after d-day (9mo�s earlier) and then subsequently, I made it eminently clear that we were completely done and our M was over did she DID NOT commit to a plan for R. Certainly not text book MB progression after discovery.


Good catch, NG. Those 2 words I accidentally omitted change everything! Corrected now.

Actually the more I recall what happened...I discovered we were in a FR and I told her how hurt I was and thought she would never stop lying to me and we were done.

I didn't threaten to D if she didn�t enter a recovery program. I just said we were going to D.

Period.

In turn, she came clean on everything and promised to enter a R program if I would agree to consider taking her back.

At first, I said no way. I did not agree to consider taking her back. I Stuck to my guns that we were through. Her LB balance with me went totally in the negative. Any feelings I had for her completely vanished when I found out she never stopped lying to me.

After a couple more weeks of thinking and talking to her, she actually seemed serious this time and she came off different.

At that point, I decided to lay out the conditions for my participation and we made a deal to enter R together. Then, we both fully embraced MB together and are on our way to a full R.

That is why I can usually smell a WS on this forum that is not serious a mile away.

Net/net: Since you did not, in fact, obtain the divorce on which you supposedly had decided, it acted as a de facto threat. The salient fact that is to be harvested here is that your case turned on her internalization of the concept that without her verifiable commitment to engage in the MB program, she was facing the termination of her marital union. Does that seem fair?

My case hinged on the same "My way or the highway!" ultimatum. It would be irresponsible to posit a hypothesis on only two such cases, however. It might be inferred from GO's delightful note epilogue that his BW wielded a similar weapon, but there is some question as to when/how she laid down the new law. More research is needed.

OK, I think I've seen enough!

I move we find someone to sneak into NG's house and steal his thesaurus.

Is there a second?