I struggle mostly with her IBs. Going about her day as though they had no part in our problems. She was constantly doing things that put her in a position that enabled the affair. She did it again yesterday and when I brought it up, she went straight for the "I can never do enough to make you happy" crap. When I talk about owning up to ones mistakes I mean taking responsibility for the problems that you've caused that have created marital problems and committing to changing them. I not referring to the affair. I haven't brought that up in almost a month.

I'm not talking about punishing anyone for their mistakes. I want her to commit to changing her behaviors that helped get us here. Abuse is abuse and a marriage cannot recover as long as anyone in that marriage is abusive. When there is neglect for the spouse and their efforts to help recover the marriage are ignored and disrespected, the BS can/will get tired of trying.

I understand part of Just Compensation to be exactly those changes to her behavior that helped get us here. If the conditions that enabled her affair are not changed, there is no Just Compensation. 4 months into this, she is still accusing me of future agruements that I may one day start because of soomething she says now... WTF is that all about. There have been zero AOs, arguements, attempts to control her from me in almost 3 months. Yet, she reverts right back to the possible future arguement that will never happen.

What's the first thing that an addict has to do before recovery can occur? Dont they have to admit they have a problem? That seems to be whats missing with WW. She wont admit that she has the IBs and that they helped get us here. How/why can she change her behaviors if she cannot recognize them as part of the problem?

Yes, kiss still participates in IB. He will play a video game instead of reading
lovebusters, which he told me he would read lol
So what behaviors is she doing?

Wow NG
I am not going to say another word to FWW about it.
Sometimes I forget there are two sides of the coin.

I'm telling you, though, that it is extremely common for a formerly wayward wife to NOT get that she was the problem, and for recovery to still happen.

You have to:
* stay calm (practice relaxation therapy and/or take antidepressants)
* meet emotional needs
* respectfully state how you feel about her behavior "I'm not okay with that, and I want us to build a marriage where neither one of us does things that the other feels are hurtful."
* immediately drop out of such conversations when she becomes upset/disrespectful: you've stated your case, and she will take some time to chew it over when she is by herself and not debating it with you
* leave the past out of discussions about changing behavior. Focus on the present.

Do you listen to the radio show, daily? You'll hear a lot of these situations, over time, and find out how Dr. Harley has helped people recover through them.

She has been offered a little more responsibility at work. That would mean more hours (a good thing since its a PT job) and more $$ (also a good thing). The company is a non-profit and she had to go to a board meeting to get a list of questions answered and more info so she could decide if she wanted to take on the extr work. She worked 9-4 yesterday and the meeting would start at 6:00. Mot enough time to drive home (30 mins) and back (a lot of gas for the extr hour at home) so she stayed. The meeting went from 6-9:45 and she got home after 10:00 pm. She had to be to work at 6:00 this morning (up at 4:30) so she went straight to bed when she got home.

Now, none of this sounds too bad except:

1. I agreed to the meeting because it would get her all of the info she needed to make her decision
2. It took away ALL of our UA time for yesterday
3. She didn't even bother making a list of the info she needed so she got NONE of it
4. She didn't assert herself at all in the meeting so they basically introduced themselves to her and continued the meeting. She actually sat there for over 3.5 hours for nothing.

I feel as though she totally disrespected the loss of UA time and got nothing in return. For the last 4 years she would go to "meetings" that were totally unproductive and care less about the effect on me/us. These basically become social gatherings at my expense.

So, maybe we can make up the UA time tonight? Not really, she's working a 12 hour shift today so she'll be tired all night and need to go to bed early.

I guess my time will always take a back seat to what she feels that she "needs" to do

Every now & then, NG combines common sense with truth, and comes up with Grace .... and that's when the magic happens.

Wow NG
I am not going to say another word to FWW about it.

wle2, if you can keep to that promise, then I will count today as a very good day. Thanx!

Yes, very nicely written.

AM

That is a manipulators tactic to keep their spouse off balance. If you are busy defending yourself from manufactured grievances, you won't be focusing on her reckless marriage behavior, and more importantly, you won't be holding her accountable! The best defense is a good offense. Every halfwit manipulator knows this. It works with some nad not with others.

Dr Harley recommends that we don't ever reward manipulators because that emboldens them.

Friend, why would you expect to recover if you choose to skip the most crucial part of recovery?

Why do you expect your wife to treat UA time as important if you treat it as so unimportant that it can be compromised?

Dr. Harley warned me not to make reluctant agreements. He said when I do, my reaction is predictable. You did the same thing here: you made an agreement you now know you shouldn't make any more. Learn from the experience, and stop agreeing to cancel UA for other activities.

You are 100% correct. When I agreed to the meeting I was giving her an opportunity to fail and showing her that it was ok to fail by not protecting our UA time.

On some level she really wanted to take on the new responsibility and I wanted her to be successful at it. To do that she needs to be really organized and, unfortunately, shes not. I wanted to help her get organized but she accuses me of controlling her when I offer suggestions. So, this time I kept quiet, offered nothing and kinda suspected this would happen.

When we talked afterwards, I told her that I would never put our UA time at risk again and if she took on the added responsibility, she would hae to do it without affecting our time together. I have made sure that she understands that I will support her walking away from this if that is what she chooses. She is so afraid to disappoint me sometimes and I just want her to be happy and feel satisfied with her job. I told her that I dont want to do anything that makes her think that I am disappointed and if I do, I want her to tell me so I can stop doing it. So far, she doesn't know what it is but will let me know if anything comes up...

We'll see I guess

You should be honest that you're not okay with a plan to skip a date for work.

As for helping her get organized - offering unsolicited help or advice is usually a good way to make people really mad at you. Check out the chapter subtitles in Dr. Harley's book Love Busters:

"Chapter 4: Disrespectful Judgments: Who wants to live with a critic?"

Rule of thumb: don't offer unsolicited advice
Rule of thumb: if you can't say it in a way that your wife finds respectful, don't say it

I dont think my approach is really offering unsolicited advice. Tell me if I'm wrong though. I usually ask questions like,

Have you made a list of the things that you need answered? I'll explain that sometimes in meetings, we can forget what we came for if the meeting gets off track and the list helps keep us focused. When she says that she hasn't made the list I'll ask if I can help her make one. Is that offering unsolicited advice? If she's not sure what to ask then I may ask her what kinds of things do you know about the job and what might be lurking in there that you dont know.

Anyway, she never accepts my help and just muddles thru on her own. Thats the kind of IB that bothers me most. I've done A LOT in my life and I can usually offer some pretty good help. Thats where I feel disrespected though. When my opinion doesn't matter to her.

Yes, that's unsolicited advice. Back off and just let her handle it. She will feel a lot better, and she will ask for your help when she genuinely values and needs it.

She's done a lot in her life, too. Your perspective is basically an implicit disrespect of her: she could do this a lot better with your help, she basically couldn't do this (right) without you.

Trust me, when I used to "help" my wife like that, I ruined her love for me.

Just talk and be a supportive friend. When she is in love with you, she will value and ask for your input more. Until then, what she needs FAR more than help and suggestions is a lover to provide her emotional support, someone she can TALK to.

Do you want to deposit love bank units, or do you want to help her do stuff right? If you can only do one, which one do you want?

Hmmm, I'll have to let that sink in a bit. It'll give us something to explore in terms of the things that I do that she doesn't like. If you're right, she may be struggling with how to tell me and not disappoint me. I've always felt that I needed to show her that I was interested in her success so I offered my help.

Arrrggghhhh!! These relationships are soooo complex

Thanks for the feedback. I'll let you know how it goes.

What she may be hearing, instead, is that if she does not do a list then her approach is flawed. Or that you believe that she doesn't know how to handle things on her own. Either way, your suggestions may be seen as patronizing--regardless of whether or not that was your intention.

Think of something that she does well and that you do poorly at. How would you like to receive advice?

I'd ask her "how did you feel when I told you how to prepare for your meeting?" and then listen to her response offering zero comments along the way. A simple "ok, thanks, I understand" from you is all that would be needed.

So, in the future, just ask her if she needs any help with the task and leave it with a friendly "Ok, just let me know if something comes up" if she declines.

Thank you for your feedback Northwood. My wife was an EMT for 3 years before I went thru the school. On my way thru it, I was always looking for her input, but never got it. I've learned along the way that there is always someone who knows more than me and I can usually learn something from just about anyone. It's hard for me to rationalize that help, like this, could be offensive. We'll talk about it tonight and see where it goes.

BTW, the reason she didn't offer help during my EMT class is because she was seeing POSOM then and my joining the fire dept was the last thing she wanted... My failure would have helped her continue the A in that case.

The following are DJs:

"Never accepts my help" (avoid using absolute words such as always and never)
"Muddles through on her own"
"I've done a LOT in my life and I can usually offer some pretty good help" (In context, this implies that she hasn't done a lot in life, and can't make it without your help)
"My opinion doesn't matter to her"

It is also not an IB on her part to ignore your DJs.

Well, I dissected your analogy, never guessed. The problem with it is you as the driver did not do anything wrong.

So what if the driver had been drinking heavily for a few months and was told by more than one person to stop before someone gets hurt? Driver than packs family into the motorhome after having too many and flips the van. The family has injuries that will last a long time (anxiety, depression, etc). Yet driver (as way too many drunks) walk away unharmed and whistling a tune.

Is it enough that the driver swore off alcohol?

That is the reality.

PS. Glad to hear that your family was OK after that!