Marriage Builders®
Posted By: Everthesame Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/06/12 03:52 PM
I am having trouble working on recovery with my WH because of the pain and fear that I am still dealing with. We are not living together right now. I had to leave my home with my 3 kids due to his continuous cake eating and stress it brought to the family. He is living in a friend's condo where he had brought the OW to.
He has written the NC letter and it has been sent, I have access to his cell phone records as well as to his car and condo, and he has been given my list of requirements in order for our marriage to move forward. But I feel we are stuck.
I find it difficult to meet his EN's and the UA time with these conditions, however I am nowhere ready to allow him access to my home yet. I am stubborn about keeping this boundary until I feel that he has earned it and I have not seen that from him yet.
I also struggle with the problems that his A has caused with our families. His parents and sisters seem to want little to do with me and I am not confident that they know the truth of our circumstances. I have talked to his parents but don't feel that they believe me. My parents and family live locally and they do not want anything to do with him because of his disrepect to me and my family. I feel that family gatherings are a thing of the past because of this. I also feel guilty when I am with him because I feel like I am betraying them.

I would very much like to call the coaching center to speak to one of the Harley's and get their take on my situation. Until then, would anyone care to weigh in? I do not want to continue much longer in this limbo as it has been mentally and physically exhausting for me.

Thanks
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/06/12 04:20 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
I am having trouble working on recovery with my WH because of the pain and fear that I am still dealing with. We are not living together right now. I had to leave my home with my 3 kids due to his continuous cake eating and stress it brought to the family. He is living in a friend's condo where he had brought the OW to.
He has written the NC letter and it has been sent, I have access to his cell phone records as well as to his car and condo, and he has been given my list of requirements in order for our marriage to move forward. But I feel we are stuck.
I find it difficult to meet his EN's and the UA time with these conditions, however I am nowhere ready to allow him access to my home yet. I am stubborn about keeping this boundary until I feel that he has earned it and I have not seen that from him yet.
I also struggle with the problems that his A has caused with our families. His parents and sisters seem to want little to do with me and I am not confident that they know the truth of our circumstances. I have talked to his parents but don't feel that they believe me. My parents and family live locally and they do not want anything to do with him because of his disrepect to me and my family. I feel that family gatherings are a thing of the past because of this. I also feel guilty when I am with him because I feel like I am betraying them.

I would very much like to call the coaching center to speak to one of the Harley's and get their take on my situation. Until then, would anyone care to weigh in? I do not want to continue much longer in this limbo as it has been mentally and physically exhausting for me.

Thanks




What is your list of requirements?
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/06/12 04:23 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
... But I feel we are stuck.

... I am stubborn about keeping this boundary until I feel that he has earned it and I have not seen that from him yet.




What do you mean by stuck?


How will you measure his "earning it"?



BTW, I'm very supportive of the coaching center..... They are the main reason our recovery proceeded successfully.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/06/12 04:36 PM
Herpapabear, my list of requirements was thanks to you and sexymamabear

-No Contact letter (done and mailed by me)
-Change cell phone number or block skank's (done)
-Give me access to cell phone account info to see calls and texts made(done)
-Provide me with copies of keys to car and condo (done)
-Allow me to receive residential custody of kids (not done - he is fighting me on that one)
-Own your own choices and the consequences they caused (to me, children and family) Not seeing this yet
-Apologize for the affair and the hurt it has caused (to me, children, family) to me he has but not to anyone else
-Begin Independent counseling (started)
-Participate in marriage counseling (have not started yet)
-STD test (not done)

Agree to abide by forever (EPs):
-Protect my feelings above all else (yes-he has agreed)
- Not participate in any one-on-one meetings with anyone of the opposite sex (yes)
-Not discuss any personal issues with anyone of the opposite sex (yes)
- Agree to POJA for any and all decisions (I myself am a little fuzzy on this and need to read more about POJA)
-Be open and honest to me at all times about past and future
(how do i trust him???)
-Make my phone calls your priority by answering them or returning them as soon as possible (yes)
- Trade phones with me at any time, no questions asked (yes, but has yet to do that)
-Leave phone accessible to me at all times (yes, but we don't live together so I do not have access to the phone)
-Commit to at least 15 hours of UA per week (again, we don't live together so this is hard to do)
-If Skank finds a a way to contact you, immediately end contact and notify me
-Anything else that I decide to be a boundary


I feel stuck because we do not seem to be moving forward. He is remorseful and wants to make me feel better...but I don't.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/06/12 05:43 PM
Rocket - I'm a little confused, or maybe I missed something. (I've had a crazy, busy week...I might have not seen updates to your SAA thread.)

So, does this mean H was willing to meet all your requirements and did so AND sent the NC letter? He's willing to do everything you've asked for recovery?

If so, I am not sure I understood the stuck part - it doesn't sound like he's willing to do everything if you are not feeling safe and don't feel like he's earning his way back.

These things take time, sure. But...it's awfully hard to recover a marriage when you aren't in the same home. I'm not saying he should move in prematurely - he MUST be doing EVERYTHING you've asked to earn his way back in. But - if you've read SAA, you know that Dr. H recommends as much time together as possible in early recovery - even to the point of taking some time away, just the two of you.

It's important to guard yourself from false recovery. It's hard for me to get a grip on exactly where you're at with the gap of missing information.
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/06/12 06:04 PM
The most important thing you can do is contact MB and set up some coaching appointments.

Do this ASAP!

It's mission critical!

Your H cannot accomplish nor understand all of this without their help. The best part is YOU won't have to teach him, they will do it all!

His willingness or lack of willingness to do the coaching will tell you a great deal.
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/06/12 06:11 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen

-Allow me to receive residential custody of kids (not done - he is fighting me on that one)


Is this even relevant if he is going to come home and you restore the marriage?

Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen

-Own your own choices and the consequences they caused (to me, children and family) Not seeing this yet


This may take more than a few weeks time!

Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen

-Apologize for the affair and the hurt it has caused (to me, children, family) to me he has but not to anyone else


This will require some work on his part and won't happen overnight.

I'd recommend you being present during all apologies to insure his disclosures.

Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen

-Begin Independent counseling (started)


IMVHO, this is the only item on your list that is a bad idea!

SMB removed this requirement from her list after thinking about it and realizing she would never know what bull was being spewed or fed by or to me.
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/06/12 06:14 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen

-Be open and honest to me at all times about past and future
(how do i trust him???)



You must have a plan to sit down and discuss all the historical timelines about the A. When you are confident you have the truth written down, you ask questions again and again to see if the answers change or stay the same..... You'll know very quickly!
Posted By: Northwood8900 Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/06/12 06:15 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen

-Own your own choices and the consequences they caused (to me, children and family) Not seeing this yet
-Apologize for the affair and the hurt it has caused (to me, children, family) to me he has but not to anyone else
-Begin Independent counseling (started)
-Participate in marriage counseling (have not started yet)
-STD test (not done)


The items in red seem to be important but not satisfied.

Perhaps that is why you are stuck...do you think that he is just doing the bare minimum to get by and not really sorry about what happened? That you're the one doing all the hard work and he is just coasting along?

If it were me, I would tell him to prove his sincerity and prove to you that you should stay married to him. If/when he asks how to do that, tell him it's his problem to figure out.

He figured out how to get you to marry him once, he should be able to figure out how to get you to stay married to him.

He should also contact your family and apologize for being a dumbsh*t son-in-law.
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/06/12 06:20 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen


I feel stuck because we do not seem to be moving forward. He is remorseful and wants to make me feel better...but I don't.


Feelings follow actions!

It's critical that you and H follow a guide through the devastation that's been left behind. MB Coaching Center will be that guide, just as it was for us.

The correct actions will lead to the feelings of love occurring.

But, only time, combined with these correct actions, will allow you to feel better about your marriage.

Recovery is a narrow path. Only those that follow that path have successful, loving marriages..... Otherwise what you will have is a crippled marriage.
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/06/12 06:25 PM
Originally Posted By: Northwood8900

If/when he asks how to do that, tell him it's his problem to figure out.



Though I understand what fuels this comment, it's not helpful to the state of the marriage nor to recovery.

The correct statement would be; "I can't help you with these things, as it causes me too much pain, this is why we are going to do the MB Coaching Center"

This is why the coaching center is so valuable!
They will help him figure it out!

They helped me figure it out and led us toward a successful recovery. They prevented me from making mistakes that would have caused my dear wife more pain.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/06/12 07:02 PM

Originally Posted By: SunnyDinTX

So, does this mean H was willing to meet all your requirements and did so AND sent the NC letter? He's willing to do everything you've asked for recovery?

If so, I am not sure I understood the stuck part - it doesn't sound like he's willing to do everything if you are not feeling safe and don't feel like he's earning his way back.

These things take time, sure. But...it's awfully hard to recover a marriage when you aren't in the same home. I'm not saying he should move in prematurely - he MUST be doing EVERYTHING you've asked to earn his way back in. But - if you've read SAA, you know that Dr. H recommends as much time together as possible in early recovery - even to the point of taking some time away, just the two of you.

It's important to guard yourself from false recovery. It's hard for me to get a grip on exactly where you're at with the gap of missing information.


Sunny, He is willing to do all of the requirements but has not done all of them. Which is why I am not ready to let him move in. But it hard for us to spend so much time together when we are living apart, I am still hurting and also afraid of a false recovery.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/06/12 07:06 PM
Originally Posted By: HerPapaBear
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen

-Allow me to receive residential custody of kids (not done - he is fighting me on that one)


Is this even relevant if he is going to come home and you restore the marriage?

This was started when he first moved out and I do not want to drop our hearing scheduled for May until he has completed the requirements

Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen

-Own your own choices and the consequences they caused (to me, children and family) Not seeing this yet


This may take more than a few weeks time!

Thank you!

Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen

-Apologize for the affair and the hurt it has caused (to me, children, family) to me he has but not to anyone else


This will require some work on his part and won't happen overnight.

I'd recommend you being present during all apologies to insure his disclosures.

Thank you!

Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen

-Begin Independent counseling (started)


IMVHO, this is the only item on your list that is a bad idea!

SMB removed this requirement from her list after thinking about it and realizing she would never know what bull was being spewed or fed by or to me.


I was called on this as well, and didn't realize that IC was a bad idea. I have already heard some cr@p that his IC has said and was not happy about it. I would much rather he speak to the coaching center but the cost is a small concern as well as phone counseling. I will urge him to give it a try.
Posted By: markos Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/06/12 07:12 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Sunny, He is willing to do all of the requirements but has not done all of them. Which is why I am not ready to let him move in. But it hard for us to spend so much time together when we are living apart, I am still hurting and also afraid of a false recovery.


I am a little confused: if he has not yet met your requirements, why are you trying to do anything toward recovery, yet?
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/06/12 07:18 PM
Originally Posted By: Northwood8900
Perhaps that is why you are stuck...do you think that he is just doing the bare minimum to get by and not really sorry about what happened? That you're the one doing all the hard work and he is just coasting along?

If it were me, I would tell him to prove his sincerity and prove to you that you should stay married to him. If/when he asks how to do that, tell him it's his problem to figure out.

He figured out how to get you to marry him once, he should be able to figure out how to get you to stay married to him.

He should also contact your family and apologize for being a dumbsh*t son-in-law.



I do think that he doing the bare minimum to get by but not due to fog but more due to not knowing what to do. He has posted a few times here but has not been as committed as I had hoped.

I agree with the rest smile
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/06/12 07:25 PM
Originally Posted By: markos[/quote


I am a little confused: if he has not yet met your requirements, why are you trying to do anything toward recovery, yet?


I am confused. How would I be a partner in our recovery if I was not in his life to insure that the requirements are being taken care of? We are not living together right now and we are trying to see if we can have a better marriage then we had pre-A before we do live together again.
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/06/12 07:40 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen


I was called on this as well, and didn't realize that IC was a bad idea. I have already heard some cr@p that his IC has said and was not happy about it. I would much rather he speak to the coaching center but the cost is a small concern as well as phone counseling. I will urge him to give it a try.


I do understand the cost concerns.

But here's the thing;

It's usually only necessary to have approx 6 sessions together. You can pre-purchase at a discount, buying in units.

It's so minimal of a cost when compared to a divorce and the lifetime expenses associated with divorces.

It's the only successful plan I've seen that specializes in "Recovering From Infidelity".

The list goes on...........

Posted By: markos Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/06/12 07:41 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
I do think that he doing the bare minimum to get by


If he hasn't met all of your requirements, yet, then he is not even doing the bare minimum.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/06/12 07:44 PM
He has to demonstrate that the NC, remorse and transparency requirements have been met before you move back in with him, and also that he has set up coaching with the MB coaching centre. There are several things like that that ME MUST DO before you go back to him, and it is up to him to prove to you that they have been done.

Only when they are done do you allow him back home in order to work on other aspects of recovery - like UA time to have a better marriage than before.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/06/12 07:47 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
I would much rather he speak to the coaching center but the cost is a small concern as well as phone counseling. I will urge him to give it a try.

Do not "urge him to give it a try". Make it a condition of reconciliation and do not allow him to move home until you have both had some sessions (separately) with the coaching centre - which he has set up and pre-paid.

He has to make this happen!
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/06/12 07:49 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
I would much rather he speak to the coaching center but the cost is a small concern as well as phone counseling. I will urge him to give it a try.


DO NOT URGE!
It is part of your requirements!

Specifically - the last one..... ! (-Anything else that I decide to be a boundary)

Either you have the control in recovery decisions, such as counseling and your requirements being met, or move to plan B.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/06/12 07:50 PM
HerPapaBear- thank you, I truly do believe that the MB coaching is exactly what we both need and will speak to him about it.

Markos- yes, there is much to be done and I will not stay in limbo waiting for it. Me and my family deserve more than crumbs.

Sugarcane- I totally agree. I will keep the boundary of our (mine and the children's) home intact and the admission prive VERY HIGH!!
Posted By: markos Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/06/12 07:52 PM
.
Posted By: Northwood8900 Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/06/12 07:54 PM
Originally Posted By: SugarCane
There are several things like that that HE MUST DO before you go back to him, and it is up to him to prove to you that they have been done.


And that's what seems to be missing here. Unless he's ringing your phone off the hook begging to be given another chance and you just didn't mention it?

Why hasn't he taken the STD test?
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/06/12 07:54 PM
LOL, you both said the same thing about urging. I will tell him that it is non-negotiable.
If the requirements are not met within a certain time period, then I will head right to plan D.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/06/12 08:00 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
and he has been given my list of requirements in order for our marriage to move forward. But I feel we are stuck.


I believe this information has already been given to you but I will try again.

It was a mistake to come out of Plan B when your WS did not agree to the requirements you had given him. I highly recommend you call Dr Harley on the radio show and/or call the coaching center to take the next step. You are basically in Plan C which is most likely to lead to D.

Quote:
In many cases, once an affair has ended, a betrayed spouse makes the mistake of taking the wayward spouse back before an agreement is made regarding marital recovery. This leads to a return to all the conditions that made the affair possible -- love is not restored, resentment is not overcome, and there is a very great risk for another affair. Without agreement and subsequent implementation of a plan for recovery, the betrayed spouse is better off continuing with plan B.


What Are Plan A & Plan B
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/06/12 08:00 PM
Originally Posted By: Northwood8900

And that's what seems to be missing here. Unless he's ringing your phone off the hook begging to be given another chance and you just didn't mention it?

Why hasn't he taken the STD test?





He did beg me for a chance and that is what I am giving him, a chance to prove he is serious.

Good question about the STD test, I got mine done last week and I wasn't the one who messed around with a skank
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/06/12 08:02 PM
Thank you, Susie. I am sending the coaching center an e-mail right now for an appointment.

What is Plan C?
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/06/12 08:02 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Originally Posted By: Northwood8900

Why hasn't he taken the STD test?





Good question about the STD test

Yes, but what is the answer?
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/06/12 08:03 PM
SC- he is a big baby and is afraid of needles. Seriously
Posted By: Northwood8900 Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/06/12 08:05 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
SC- he is a big baby and is afraid of needles. Seriously


Did he really say that?

I mean, seriously?
Posted By: Northwood8900 Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/06/12 08:06 PM
Insist on the test and see if he gets mad or indignant in response.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/06/12 08:12 PM
I will insist on the test.
I will insist on the coaching center.
Thank you for the advice!!
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/06/12 08:15 PM

I would call Dr Harley as well. The radio show is a wonderful resource that frankly I don't understand why more people don't take more advantage of.

Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen

What is Plan C?


You are not in Plan A or B and also not in Recovery = Plan C.

Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
paraphrased quotes from 5/4/2010 radio show:

"What is Plan C?

It is a compromise. I never recommend Plan C. Plan A is you do the best to win your spouse back.

Plan B is you have absolutely nothing to do with the spouse.

Those 2 are the best strategies in an affair. They give you the best shot at saving the marriage.

Plan C, which I don't ever recommend is a compromise is an inbetween state where you are in contact but the contact is not solving the problem.

Plan C makes it more likely you will end up divorced. Some contact but not quality contact. This is a BAD PLAN. It is better to have no contact."

From this thread: BS's Plan C is NOT a plan!
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/06/12 08:16 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
I will insist on the test.


The problem with giving requirements and not following through is that your WS now knows that he can get you to back down.

Don't bother stating that as a boundary unless you are willing to follow through.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/06/12 08:19 PM
Susie, thank you for that and the link. I will follow through on the test requirement.
Posted By: Letty Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/07/12 03:27 AM
RQ - my H and i are using the coaching center (going on 6 years post dday). it is the best money we have ever spent. no wishy-washy psychobable, but a solid, achieveable plan that allows the BS (and the m) to truly heal. 6 appts. the money we spent on a MC after dday was money down the toilet, and that was 6 MONTHS, not 6 appts.

i don't see the hold up here. he takes an afternoon off work, you both go to the dr together, where he gets to explain he's there because he's been a dumb**. he then gets to have a (small) pole shoved up his hoohah. (now if that's not JC, i don't know what is, lol). who gives a crap if he's scared of needles? tough patootie for him (but for heaven's sake, don't tell him to man up. let your dr do it!). then you both attend the phone appt with SH, which i hope you have already made. he will be sent his own email with instructions, and he if doesn't do what he's supposed to for the appt, SH will make no bones about it.

if he does those things, your initial list will be complete, yes? you can allow him into the home based on that good faith, and start healing your marriage.

some of your other items will take more time, and come as the recovery is in process. he's got to come out of the fog, and you guys need to bond again. this is hardest on you, i'm sorry for that, but that's the reality of marital recovery. SH will help you through this.

of course, there's always the chance that he won't do these 2 things, yes. we BSs have no control over that. it's one of the hardest things to handle, or at least it was for me. but no matter where it gets you in the end, you'll have made some kind of progress and won't feel so "stuck."
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/07/12 12:09 PM
Letty, thank you so much for your informative post. Everything you said makes sense and sounds so simple. I realize now that recovery takes time, but there has been no reason for him to drag his feet on the STD test and the phone counseling. Unless he doesn't really mean he "will do whatever it takes". As you said, I can't control what he does. I can only control my reaction to it.
I appreciate your words!

~RQ
Posted By: MFJ1974 Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/07/12 04:36 PM
I think I'm going to keep score on how many false recoveries are preceded by the wayward not wanting to do the STD test.

I mean come on, the needle is more important then the marriage? What a bunch of bull.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/09/12 12:27 PM
Well, due to my WH having an issue with our court dates (did he really think I would just drop them??) and believing that this will cause our marriage to over, I am cutting off contact with him, again.
His sense of entitlement and "poor me" attitude is jaw-dropping. He doesn't realize that I am the one giving him a chance, not the other way around. I am the one in the driver's seat. If this will cause us to be "done", then so be it...
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/09/12 02:03 PM
I think the key here is that you have let him have control of the vehicle through all of this by dropping plan B every time he APPEARED to be coming around. When you get serious, perhaps he might. Of course he thought you would just drop the court dates...you haven't given him any reason to think you'd stick to any of the requirements thus far.

He's still cake-eating.

You are in false recovery zone right now. Believe me, I know how it is - I was there. Before I discovered my H's affair (I had suspicions, but no proof for awhile) I was sucked in several times when my H appeared to be "working on the marriage" but was really just cake-eating. For me, it was a different story once I discovered the A: there was no way I was going to allow cake-eating after that! When the WS knows you know about the A and you still allow them to eat cake you are basically telling them, "I don't respect myself enough to put a stop to it. Therefore, you don't have to respect me either." When they don't respect you, they can't be in love with you.
Posted By: beginagain Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/09/12 09:37 PM
Is your WH Kiss on the "Surviving an Affair" forum? If so, you aren't anywhere near in recovery. I think you should have this thread moved over there.

ba
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/10/12 01:46 AM
beginagain- yes, it is and you are right. We aren't in recovery yet. I believe that I need to be able to "forgive" him in some way in order to work on our marriage. And I have not seen remorse for what he has put me and his family through to forgive him yet.

I hope that other posters can help him. For now, I will let this thread die...
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/10/12 02:06 PM
Forgiveness, for me, was (and still is) a process. It isn't a magical thing that just happens. (Maybe from God, because of grace, when repentance is there.) But true repentance must be there in the marriage as well. The WS earns forgiveness from you when they start giving you just compensation for what you've been through - by proving they are willing to do whatever it takes to save the marriage.

I will say this: in my instance my husband knew I was also willing to do whatever it took to make our marriage great - that we would be in it (recovery) together - but it was on him to first prove that he'd done the heavy lifting. I had to know I was no longer dealing with the wayward mindset.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/10/12 02:57 PM
Exactly! Thank you SunnyD for putting my feelings into words
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/12/12 09:15 PM
The child support hearing went really well and we were able to do it in such a way that it was agreeable to both of us. My WH even "got" that going through with the hearing was reassurance for me. I feel that he understands it was for the sake and benefit of his children.
He even got his STD test and my results are all negative!!
Feeling very positive now about how things are going. Like I told him "It's a good start!"
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/12/12 09:48 PM
Glad you had a good day RQ.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/13/12 07:12 PM
I knew that my family would be an issue while my WH and I attempt to repair our marriage but I didn't think things would be this bad. This is a part of an e-mail from my mother today
He "blames me for the exposure, throwing him out, etc. but that's okay, since I have now seen what he is really like I don't want him in my life at all. I hope you work things out with him if that is what you want but me & Dad are done with him. I know there are families where certain members hate each other and successfully avoid each other. It will not be easy and of course isn't the ideal circumstance but it can be done.And neither you or me should accept any blame for it, this all a fallout from his bad behavior. Plus, like he said, he has always hated me even before this. Wish I had known that before...."

I'm at a lost at how to handle this. Now I feel like I don't only have my own healing to deal with but my mother's as well. And in the meantime, WH has not posted here in like 5 days even though he said he was committed to checking in here every day..

Thoughts?
Posted By: Northwood8900 Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/13/12 07:59 PM
There's not much you can do about your mother, other than tell her that you understand her feelings and appreciate the support that she voiced with regards to you and WH reconciling.
Posted By: mmmherb Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/13/12 09:33 PM
This may be hard to hear.

If you and H do reconcile and your mother still feels this way, then your H comes first.

Knowing that he feels that way about your mother, if you reconcile you have to be OK with her not really being a part of your family life, and that means your life in general.

So, if you do reconcile and she refuses to come around, you have to tell her,"Ok, see you when you change your mind"

A big tenet of MB is the marriage comes first, before kids, friends and family, jobs, etc.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/18/12 12:47 PM
Still no "heavy lifting" on his part. He has not called the coaching center. He actually said to me last night "I wish we could forget about this and put it behind us"...of course after my look of dismay, he quickly changed it to "I know that we can't".
So sorry this is so difficult for YOU, honey!!
Maybe it would be less painful for both of us if we put it behind us and go our separate ways.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/18/12 02:14 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Still no "heavy lifting" on his part. He has not called the coaching center. He actually said to me last night "I wish we could forget about this and put it behind us"...of course after my look of dismay, he quickly changed it to "I know that we can't".
So sorry this is so difficult for YOU, honey!!
Maybe it would be less painful for both of us if we put it behind us and go our separate ways.


Again, he probably is still reacting to the fact that you haven't forced heavy lifting on his part because you never went into Plan B and never required him to use the IM, etc... He never got the sense that you seriously meant any of what you said.

All WS's wish it could just be forgotten, I'm sure. He has to want to do the work because he wants your marriage to be different. The fact that he is looking at it as if it is penance shows the fog is still there. When he wants your relationship to be truly great, he will want to know how to do that.

Has he read any of the materials?
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/18/12 03:21 PM
SunnyD, I agree with you. We have out custody court in 3 weeks so I have set a time limit on how much longer I'll be strung along.
He has asked me how to make things better and I have pointed him here. But no, he has not read any of the materials, he has only posted a few times and like I said, hasn't called the coaching center. It makes me feel that he doesn't think our marriage is worth the effort. I also believe that he doesn't want to do the effort because he doesn't know if I am invested in the marriage. I'm not feeling invested because he is not doing the work. A vicious cycle that only HE can break.
The next time I do Plan B, it will be accompanied with divorce papers. I'm done playing around
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/19/12 02:18 AM
I'm re-reading SAA and came across this passage in the chapter "Preparing for marital recovery"

"Instead of focusing their attention on the mistakes of the past, I encourage couples to focus on the present and the future. They should NOT dwell on the affair but focus on rebuilding their marriage"

So now I am confused. How does a BS NOT dwell on the affair? And he doesn't mention "just compensation" in the book either.

Thoughts?
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/19/12 03:32 AM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
I'm re-reading SAA and came across this passage in the chapter "Preparing for marital recovery"

"Instead of focusing their attention on the mistakes of the past, I encourage couples to focus on the present and the future. They should NOT dwell on the affair but focus on rebuilding their marriage"

So now I am confused. How does a BS NOT dwell on the affair? And he doesn't mention "just compensation" in the book either.

Thoughts?


Well, the BS will still have thoughts, memories, and triggers that diminish with time, hopefully. The not dwelling part though is where you choose to not beat your spouse up about it and talk about it, etc... You manage your thoughts the best you can. Of course, it's hard to put it behind you when you haven't even truly started down the road to recovery properly yet. That has to happen before you can "put it behind you" so to speak.

As for the just compensation, it may be that it's mentioned here on the site (in an article) or in a radio segment, or even in another book.

Dr. H isn't saying "lets just forget about this and move on," in other words. You change the behaviors; you put secure measure in place; you commit (and act on) the plan of recovery. THEN you leave it in the past, etc...
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/19/12 05:14 AM
If my memory is correct I believe I've heard Dr. H said that in the rewrite of SAA with his daughter Dr. Jennifer Harley Chalmers, they are going to add a section/chapter about just compensation.
For now it is here.
Originally Posted By: Dr. Harley
So let's talk about just compensation. What could the offending spouse possibly do to compensate for an affair? After all, it's probably the most painful experiences anyone could ever put his or her spouse through.

The first act of compensation to you from your husband should be to end his relationship with the other woman once and for all. He should never see or talk to her again, even if it means leaving his job or moving your family to another state. The reason should be obvious, but in case there's some confusion, he should be reminded that every contact he will ever have with this woman will be like a knife in your heart. He has already caused you to suffer unbearable pain, and any further contact with his ex-lover would
keep[/ you suffering. In your case, the affair is probably over, but has your [husband [taken precautions to never see or talk to his ex-lover again?
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/19/12 05:17 AM
Having problems with my quoting tonight. The Dr. H quote that I posted above is here in this article.

Just compensation found here in this article.
Can we just forgive and forget? Letter#1
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/19/12 11:48 AM
Aaargh! I lost my whole post so here goes again...

Thanks for your input. I had read that article so was confused when I read that in SAA...am I looking for action on his part or am I supposed to be nor "dwelling" on it (jeez I do't like that word!). I did see that my book was from 1998 so that explains it!

I went back and read herpapabears list of EP's and somewhere on there I cam across a post by SusieQ that helped a lot! I hope she doesn't mind me quoting her thread


"We are still working with Steve. We are moving from the "Protection" phase to the "Connection" phase of coaching.

Just to recap: The protection phase included my H
a) working with SH to fully understand why the A happened and take 100% responsibility for it and convey this to me
b) change his belief system re how to protect himself from another A (this included looking at his own top ENs and looking at what ENs OW met and how he let that happen) and
c) complete an EP list that we were both satisfied with.
Oh, and SH has reiterated to both of us that it is 100% OK for me to snoop. My H has 100% changed his attitude/defensiveness about this.

Steve said my H needs to review his EP list with me regularly (weekly) or so for the time being to assure me that he understands it and knows what is on there.

So for anyone in Recovery who is stuck, just wanted to share what Steve reiterated to me in our last session... He basically said his experience is couples get stuck in R when they haven't successfully complete the Protection Phase that I outlined above, that they tend not to do well in the Connection Phase (Meeting ENs/avoiding LBers) as the BS doesn't really feel safe."

This is exactly where kiss and I are at and I hope we can work on our "protection" phase so we can move on to the "connection" phase.

I still haven't heard from the radio program so I think it's time to make that call to the coaching center.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/19/12 02:04 PM
Ask the MODS to send an email to the Harleys.

We've had a few posters not hearing back.

Yes call the coaching center.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/20/12 06:34 PM
Just got an e-mail that my question will be on the radio today. I'll have to wait until I get home to listen though.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/21/12 01:07 AM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Just got an e-mail that my question will be on the radio today. I'll have to wait until I get home to listen though.


I haven't had a chance to listen yet. What did he say?
Also what segment is it in?
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/21/12 01:14 AM
I'm finally listening now, it's in the last segment. I'm patiently (not) waiting to get to that part. hahaha
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/21/12 01:21 AM
Dr Harley's advice was that as long as the affair is over, I am willing to work on the marriage and that all EP's are in place, then I should invite him to live in our home. Then we would continue with transparency, UA and other MB concepts.

I think it is important that I get all requirements done first and then move onto that...

thoughts? I value everyone's advice! Thanks so much
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/21/12 01:30 AM
What are your requirements?

Does your WH know them?
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/21/12 03:58 AM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Dr Harley's advice was that as long as the affair is over, I am willing to work on the marriage and that all EP's are in place, then I should invite him to live in our home. Then we would continue with transparency, UA and other MB concepts.

I think it is important that I get all requirements done first and then move onto that...

thoughts? I value everyone's advice! Thanks so much


Yes, ALL of the EP's must be in place! Of course, there are some that will be "to be continued..." but they should be set up and a plan of action to keep them in play.

Did he say that your H must also be willing to do the work and 100% committed to a recovery plan?

That's what is big in my mind: you need to know that your H is now of a mindset that it's you and him - against the world - fighting for this marriage, above everything else: no more IBs, etc...
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/21/12 06:40 PM
Sunny, no I was surprised that he didn't mention what kiss had to do and I was hoping he would. But I do know that kiss is willing to do the work. We need to sit and talk about his EP's and go over the other requirements.
We also plan on sitting down with kids this weekend and having a talk with them (own the consequences and apologize part).
Moving forward......
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/21/12 06:59 PM
Can you two drop the MC and call the coaching center?

I posted this on kiss's thread but thought you'd like it also.
EP's by HerPapaBear
Requirements for Recovery From an Affair

Maybe have kiss write the show himself? Dr.H is always wanting the other spouse to contact him.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/22/12 04:05 AM
BH- These are the requirements I have given to kiss


-No Contact letter (done and mailed by me)
-Change cell phone number or block skank's (done)
-Give me access to cell phone account info to see calls and texts made(done)
-Provide me with copies of keys to car and condo (done)
-Allow me to receive residential custody of kids (not done - he is fighting me on that one and if I see action on his part, I will dismiss the petition)

-Own your own choices and the consequences they caused (to me, children and family) Not seeing this yet
-Apologize for the affair and the hurt it has caused (to me, children, family) to me he has but not to anyone else
-Begin Independent counseling (started)
-Participate in marriage counseling
-STD test (done)
Agree to abide by forever (EPs):
-Protect my feelings above all else (yes-he has agreed)
- Not participate in any one-on-one meetings with anyone of the opposite sex (yes)
-Not discuss any personal issues with anyone of the opposite sex (yes)
- Agree to POJA for any and all decisions
-Be open and honest to me at all times about past and future (he said yes-but how do i trust him???)
-Make my phone calls your priority by answering them or returning them as soon as possible (yes)
- Trade phones with me at any time, no questions asked (yes, but has yet to do that)
-Leave phone accessible to me at all times (yes, but we don't live together so I do not have access to the phone)
-Commit to at least 15 hours of UA per week (again, we don't live together so this is hard to do)
-If Skank finds a a way to contact you, immediately end contact and notify me
-Anything else that I decide to be a boundary

I will also require a constant show of remorse, humility, honesty, repentance, and constant reassurance. (???)

I would like to call the coaching center for at least one session as the price is a concern, although I know it would be well worth it!
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/22/12 04:36 AM
Did he listen to the radio show with your question?
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/22/12 01:16 PM
I don't believe so, he might have trouble with it. I know mine downloaded to my itunes and I couldn't fast forward through it.
I'm still learning the other parts of the site so I'm sure HE will have trouble, lol
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/23/12 06:41 AM
I finally heard your question on the radio show.

Are you going to let kiss move back like Dr. Harley suggested? Have you confirmed NC with the OW?

Dr. Harley says you need to jump all in with all "four feet"??
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/23/12 11:16 AM
LOL - whose four feet was he talking about?? I had someone else say that I need to take a "leap of faith" and then 2 other people told me not to rush it. That I don't need to make that decision right now. So I have to figure out what I feel in my gut.

We have talked about him moving in and talked with the kids last night about it. We are hoping soon but I'm not ready just yet. I don't know, it's hard. I still have that fear in me. I would like him to call the coaching center and e-mail the MB radio, and post here more.

I also have no way of confirming complete NC with OW because I know she can always call him at work if she wanted to. All I can do is hope that he ends the contact and does notify me like it says in the EP's. But thank God, they don't work together any more!
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/23/12 11:34 AM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
LOL - whose four feet was he talking about?? I had someone else say that I need to take a "leap of faith" and then 2 other people told me not to rush it. That I don't need to make that decision right now. So I have to figure out what I feel in my gut.

We have talked about him moving in and talked with the kids last night about it. We are hoping soon but I'm not ready just yet. I don't know, it's hard. I still have that fear in me. I would like him to call the coaching center and e-mail the MB radio, and post here more.

I also have no way of confirming complete NC with OW because I know she can always call him at work if she wanted to. All I can do is hope that he ends the contact and does notify me like it says in the EP's. But thank God, they don't work together any more!


You're correct there, because Dr. H did say that unless you feel completely ready to take that step to not do it.

Only you will know by his actions. I know he isn't doing very well on the posting because he gets asked lots of questions and never answers them.

I did suggest to him to write the radio show and call the coaching center. We'll see.

Good luck and I'm pulling for you two.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/23/12 02:01 PM
Yes, he does miss a lot of questions and is not very comfortable on the computer. I know it's hard for him. But I point out to him all the crazy stuff I did to save our marriage, so I don't think I am asking for much on his end.

Thanks so much for your time you have been taking for us!
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/23/12 07:34 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Yes, he does miss a lot of questions and is not very comfortable on the computer. I know it's hard for him.


Please don't make excuses for him! You'll do yourself a major dis-service.

He's a big boy, and needs to put on his big boy pants!

He isn't missing any questions, he is AVOIDING THEM!

He isn't uncomfortable on the computer, he's uncomfortable having others ask him to be HONEST. He's a great bullchitter until he is dealing with others that can see through his bullchit! Then he wants to make excuses and cut-n-run.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/23/12 08:04 PM
Also you should stay off each other's posts.
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/23/12 09:55 PM
Originally Posted By: BrainHurts
Also you should stay off each other's posts.


RQ,

Spouses should not post on each others threads, it only causes discord at home, and chaos on the forums when this happens.

That being said, my wife read ALL my posts! She needed to see what I was saying. After-all, I was the foggy wayward!

She asked me to give her space on her own thread in order to have a place to VENT! She knew it wouldn't be good for me to see her venting posts.

Keep your eyes wide open girl!
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/24/12 04:00 PM
Thanks, I only wrote on his post because he had told me earlier that he was confused by the abbreviations.

Unfortunately, I don't believe he will be posting here any longer. My family is VERY upset about what he posted about them and upset with me for "allowing" it, I guess.

I'm quite upset because I thought this was a great resource for us. I am not happy about what he wrote about my family at all and does not pertain to OUR problems.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/24/12 08:24 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Thanks, I only wrote on his post because he had told me earlier that he was confused by the abbreviations.

Unfortunately, I don't believe he will be posting here any longer. My family is VERY upset about what he posted about them and upset with me for "allowing" it, I guess.

I'm quite upset because I thought this was a great resource for us. I am not happy about what he wrote about my family at all and does not pertain to OUR problems.

How does your family know?
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/24/12 08:40 PM
My mother knew about this site because I had referred to it when talking to her about Plan B, etc. early on.

The only reason I can see that she was reading the site was to find out what was going on with my WH and I. I feel badly that she is upset about what was written, but our situation has nothing to do with her or the rest of my family. Now my WH feels that his privacy was invaded and refuses to post anymore.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/24/12 08:58 PM
I posted this on his thread also.

It's a radio clipnof Dr. H says a WH needs to do if his serious about recovery.
Radio clip on WH serious about recovery
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/24/12 10:29 PM
Thanks BH! Now, where did my headphones go.....
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/25/12 01:59 AM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Now my WH feels that his privacy was invaded and refuses to post anymore.



He still doesn't get it!

He's as wayward as ever.....


THERE IS NO PRIVACY NECESSARY WHEN HE IS WILLING TO BE 100% HONEST!

The only privacy he needs is when he is using the bathroom.

MrRollieEyes
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/25/12 04:00 AM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Thanks BH! Now, where did my headphones go.....


It's a good clip. The WH should go tell eveyone that he had an affair, he should "expose" himself (not the illegal way :D).

Like HerPapaBear said he has no privacy right now.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/25/12 01:33 PM
Why does he feel his privacy was invaded?
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/26/12 12:48 AM
RQ,

What's up? Are you going to go Plan B? Call the coaching center?
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/26/12 01:34 AM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Thanks, I only wrote on his post because he had told me earlier that he was confused by the abbreviations.

Unfortunately, I don't believe he will be posting here any longer. My family is VERY upset about what he posted about them and upset with me for "allowing" it, I guess.

I'm quite upset because I thought this was a great resource for us. I am not happy about what he wrote about my family at all and does not pertain to OUR problems.
Did he lie about your family? Do you agree that your first priority is your marriage?
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/26/12 02:40 AM
BH- I am encouraging him to call the coaching center. We have been discussing signing up for the online program. He says that he will continue posting here. That he doesn't care what my mother says, that this is between me and him and he'll do whatever he has to do.

MB - His observations were inaccurate. But my mother can get too involved in things and takes things very personally. She has actually boycotted B&N for life because they fired my DS21! I do know that recovering my marriage is my priority right now and that any amends to will have to happen down the road.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/26/12 08:02 AM
Yes definitely call the coaching center.

What did you tell your mom? Good opportunity to stand up for your M.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/26/12 02:02 PM
BrainHurts, I'd rather not say too much but I did tell her that we are working recovery and that I should not be judged by wanting to do that. And that our issues have nothing to do with her.
Posted By: pokerface Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/26/12 02:48 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
BrainHurts, I'd rather not say too much but I did tell her that we are working recovery and that I should not be judged by wanting to do that. And that our issues have nothing to do with her.


Rocketqueen. There are so many parents and ILs that are weak enablers. You mother seems to have some fire. It would be great to be able to channel that into productive support. Buy her the book SAA so that she can educate herself and become a positive influence in your M and in your fight to hold your kids family together.

Of course your marriage comes before anything else...but I always try to give people the best chance. That is what I would try if it were my own mother.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/26/12 03:34 PM
pokerface, don't get me wrong. My mother is a wonderful person and I don't believe she is an enabler. She wants to help anyone who is hurt. But she gets too empathic with the issues, and takes on the role and the pain of the person she is trying to help. She is also very emphatic about her thoughts and her opinions.
I am just concerned for her and feel responsible for her pain. That is a great idea about giving her the SAA book. I just read it and another one is coming in the mail from Joyce Harley so I will give her my copy. Thank you for the suggestion!
Posted By: pokerface Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/26/12 09:31 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
pokerface, don't get me wrong. My mother is a wonderful person and I don't believe she is an enabler. She wants to help anyone who is hurt. But she gets too empathic with the issues, and takes on the role and the pain of the person she is trying to help. She is also very emphatic about her thoughts and her opinions.


RQ. Sorry maybe I didn't word that properly...clearly your Mother is not an enabler and I respect her need to protect you.

I learned through my own road to recovery that there are many popular misguided views about affairs. Many times the people trying to "help" are following those naive views not realizing that they are causing more harm than good.

The better your mother understands marriage builders principles; the better the chance that she will be able to give positive support. You don't need any additional conflict right now. Present the SAA book to her in a positive way.

I am wishing the best for you and your family.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/26/12 09:35 PM
Send your mother these.
Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts
How To Survive Infidelity

Send her the video also:
Infidelity: What Every couple needs to know
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/27/12 08:19 PM
Mom- read the links. I'll give you the book tonight.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/27/12 08:46 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Mom- read the links. I'll give you the book tonight.


Does kiss have the book SAA? I think he needs it before your mom?
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/27/12 08:53 PM
He doesn't like to read. He has trouble retaining what he read. That is why I was looking at ordering audiobooks for him. My mother, on the other hand, enjoys reading as much as I do smile
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/27/12 08:57 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
He doesn't like to read. He has trouble retaining what he read. That is why I was looking at ordering audiobooks for him. My mother, on the other hand, enjoys reading as much as I do smile


Ok gotcha. It would be better if HE would buy it.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/27/12 09:04 PM
I've found "HNHN" on audio but not SAA.

Did you find it on audio?
Posted By: markos Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/27/12 09:18 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
He doesn't like to read. He has trouble retaining what he read. That is why I was looking at ordering audiobooks for him.


Radio show archives, listen online! smile

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/27/12 09:19 PM
SAA isn't available on audio.

And what would be better, is for kiss to study the books.
I've read SAA at least a dozen times. I highlight and make notes as well. This isn't for leisure, it's for saving a marriage and a family.

I'm sure if OW had mentioned how much she would have admired kiss if he would have read the book, "How to Win Friends and Influence People", by Dale Carnegie,(or any other book) kiss would have tripped all over himself just trying to get to the book store and read it that day in order to impress her.


I can appreciate he struggles with reading, so do I. I prefer audio books, as my vision is terrible. I've had multiple eye surgeries in an attempt to repair the muscle damages around my eyes. So yes reading is very difficult, but I do it anyways. We all do what's important to us.
How important is this marriage??
His actions and effort will say it all!
Posted By: markos Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/27/12 09:20 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
That is why I was looking at ordering audiobooks for him.


redflag

If you are having to do it for him, that is not a good sign.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/27/12 10:30 PM
Thanks guys, point taken. I have to stop doing his work for him.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/27/12 11:04 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Thanks guys, point taken. I have to stop doing his work for him.



Now you're getting it. If he is a true remorseful, repentant wayward his ACTIONS will speak to you.

His lack of actions are a huge redflag to all of us.
Posted By: KaylaAndy Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/28/12 02:58 AM
I'm concerned that he's fighting to get back into residency with you before demonstrating how he's a changed man. He seems like the same man just fighting for control and a way back to status quo before you turned his world upside down by growing a backbone.

It's too bad he broke your Plan B and you let him back into contact with you before he hit bottom. He seems to have an expectation that if he says he's sorry enough you will go back to the old marriage.

Take a strong stand that you are never going back to that old marriage; that you are a different woman than the woman he trampled.

Watch for actions, not tantrums or words.

Find a way to Plan B!!! Really seriously this time.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 04/28/12 04:41 PM
Well, I had trouble playing the radio clips on my WH's laptop too. Not sure why? He just got it so maybe it isn't set up with a program to play it. I dunno. I downloaded itunes and it still wouldn't work.

KaylaAndy - thank you for your advice. I am truly starting to see a change in him recently. I am standing strong for a "new" marriage, but am fortunate to know that I have the inner strength to stand alone if I need to thanks to the advice given to me by this forum.I will continue the current path that I am on right now. And wanted to let you know that I hold very close to my heart and my head one of your quotes "I don't need to be married that badly!" I know that I respect myself enough to not settle for anything less than what I want!
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/02/12 11:05 AM
We finally got our EN's questionnaires done the other night and it was an interesting experience. I don't feel like I am fully "onborad" with it yet. I can't help but feel that we are moving too quickly on to marriagebuilding and the big elephant isn't being addressed. The A isn't even spoken about in MC unless I bring it up. I'm doing what I can fulfilling his needs and avoiding LB's, but I still feel like I am lacking what I really need.
I told a friend of mine that it's like we're building a pretty new house on a cesspool, pretty soon the stink will be unbearable!!

Still going to church and I am so glad that I started to go again. I will keep praying for God to give me strength and to give my WH forgiveness. I will keep praying that He will continue to guide me.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/02/12 11:27 AM
So what about Dr. H's advice about letting him move back in with you?

You still aren't ready for that?

Did you hear the radio clips where Dr. H talks to a couple (WH, serial cheater and a BW) who moved him home and she was having nightmares and constant triggers?
If you'd like to find the clips I will.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/02/12 11:44 AM
Here I found them
Radio clip of a couple trying to recover from his many affairs
Segment #2
Segment #3
Segment #4

Tell me what you think.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/02/12 02:48 PM
BH, thanks for the clips. I will listen to them tonight. To answer your question, no, I don't feel that I am ready to have him move in. I know that Dr. Harley says that I should. But I feel that what I WANT and NEED from him are being overlooked and he is getting everything that he wants and needs. I know that sounds selfish and bitter. But having him move in, to me, feels like I am shutting the door on what my requirements are and settling. I can't do that.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/03/12 04:00 AM
Have you decided how your husband can best give you just compensation?

That's what I am reading here: you haven't seen enough hat-in-hand type behavior from him. What will it take for you to get that?

You need to figure this out so that you can ask for what you need.

Did you two ever really talk about the affair? You know, have the "one, big conversation" about it? Did you express your hurt and devastation to him?

Often, when one feels something is lacking and they can't move forward it's because he or she doesn't feel understood yet. It leaves you feeling unimportant or unloved - and without security.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/03/12 11:05 AM
SunnyD- I think the one big thing I need. The huge emotional need that I have to be able to forgive him and move on is to see, not just hear" that he owns 100% responsibility for the affair. That he has "OWNED his choices and the consequences they cause" and that has not happened yet. I feel that he is still blaming the state of our marriage for it. I still feel that he feels justified in what he did. And that bothers me a great deal.

I have asked him to call the coaching center a few times and he has not. Will it help with this? Who knows. Should he be doing it because I asked him to and not make every excuse not to? I certainly think so!

We have had a few talks about the affair and he has answered questions for me. I am satisfied that I know what I need to know and he is good with answering questions when I have one.

Side note - I am still dealing with flak from family and while I am trying to ignore it and focus on my marriage, it is difficult. I do believe that my WH owes them an apology and even a thank you and yet he refuses to do so. So how do I stand by the side of someone who is so disrespectful to them and justify it??
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/03/12 11:10 AM
Oh! I had posted about the "protection phase" back on the 19th. That was from a post from Susie Q. This is where I am still stuck at.
Posted By: Northwood8900 Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/03/12 03:22 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen

Side note - I am still dealing with flak from family and while I am trying to ignore it and focus on my marriage, it is difficult. I do believe that my WH owes them an apology and even a thank you and yet he refuses to do so. So how do I stand by the side of someone who is so disrespectful to them and justify it??


...which kind of goes back to your statement about him owning his choices.

Going in circles isn't getting you anywhere, it's time that he breaks the stupid cycle and follows up with your family.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/03/12 08:08 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
.I feel like I am i the middle and am being told that I have to choose my family (who has supported me through this whole ordeal) and my WH (who has caused this whole ordeal).

It sucks.

RQ,
You wrote this on another thread.

I'm sure you're already aware of this, but if kiss doesn't "stand up and take responsibility for his actions and start making amends for them(just compensation) you will remain stuck.

Recovery is tough enough with a repentant spouse but all most impossible without a repentant spouse.

What is his excuse for not calling the coaching center?

A truly repentant spouse will do whatever it takes for their spouse. How is the level of your LB?

You've been seperated how long?

I'm worried about your health. How are you truly? You need to protect your LB.

Dr. Harley just said on the radio show. "It is very difficult to recover from an affair if the BS is doing all the work".

You're already seperated have you thought about Plan B? You know your health better than us.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/03/12 08:21 PM
Brainhurts, awww thanks for caring about my health. I'm actually doing quite well. I am still on my AD and have gained back 6 of the poumds I had lost on the infidelity diet.

No, he still has not called the coaching center and I had
mentioned it to him AGIAN today. As we are separated, I feel that I am in a good place to not allow him to move in until he starts to take responsibilty for his actions.

I do think I need to give myself a deadline though. And Plan B was very difficult on me and my kids. I have been in Plan C since March 5th. I am prepared to go to Plan D if I feel that is what I have to do.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/03/12 09:22 PM
Plan C was exactly what I was worried about with you.
You already know what Dr. Harley says on this, correct? So I don't need to beat you up.

Read this BS Plan C is not a MB plan

Listen to these radio clips.
Radio clip on Plan A & B
Radio clip on Plan C
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/04/12 03:04 AM
Yes, I have read that and agree with the absurdity of it. I really shouldn't say I am in Plan C. My WH is not the fogged out alien he used to be and isn't lying, denying or cake-eating like he was.
And I am not the person I used to be who believed she was "just a friend", allowed his cake-eating, believed his lies, felt guilty and scared about exposure and had nearly convinced myself that I WAS crazy.
I know that I went through H-E-double-toothpicks fighting for my marriage. I learned that I am a woman worthy of a GOOD husband, and I know that should my WH not make me feel that I am worthy of "whatever it takes", then I am strong enough to stand alone. I will know when I am ready.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/04/12 04:03 AM
RQ,

That's why you need to either jump all in and work on your M and tell your family that the way how they can support you right now is to back off.

Plan B kiss or Plan B your family(for now).

You need Plan RQ (which is MB (BTW).
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/04/12 02:53 PM
Just spoke to Joyce, I'll be on the show TODAY!!
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/04/12 03:14 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Just spoke to Joyce, I'll be on the show TODAY!!


Fantastic I will be listening. Thanks for letting us know?
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/05/12 01:01 AM
RQ,

I saw kiss has an apt with Steve. That is fabulous. Will you be speaking with him also?

What did you think of your call with the Harleys?
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/05/12 12:13 PM
BH,

Yes, I am very happy about it! The appointment is on my birthday too.

The call with the Harleys helped me a great deal. I think I can get now move on with marriagebuilding materials and stop waiting for something that will take time to happen. Dr. Harley also said to give my family time and just stay away from them for now.

I'm off to DD7 ballgame right now. I'll try to listen to my radio clip later!
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/05/12 10:36 PM
Wow what a Birthday gift. Did you give kiss a big hug and tell him how proud you are of him?
So are you going to let him move back in?

Glad to see you're on the road to recovery.

Let us know how your apt with Steve goes.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/06/12 01:08 AM
Brainhurts, Yes, he definitely knows how proud of him I am and when he asked me what I wanted for my birthday, I told him that he already gave me something by making the appt.
I will take notes and pass the info on. I'm kind of nervous because I don't know what to expect or what questions we should ask.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/06/12 01:57 AM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Brainhurts, Yes, he definitely knows how proud of him I am and when he asked me what I wanted for my birthday, I told him that he already gave me something by making the appt.
I will take notes and pass the info on. I'm kind of nervous because I don't know what to expect or what questions we should ask.

Relax and enjoy your birthday, my friend.

Steve will make you feel very relaxed and handle it.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/06/12 02:00 AM
Thank you!
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/06/12 09:10 PM
Sooo, I just took a crappy walk down memory lane while mowing the lawn. I started thinking of all the lies that kiss had told me, all the games he played with my head and my heart. How he would tell me he loved me and missed me and I would give him another chance and then he would have sex with skank the next day. Not once but twice! So much pain and hurt.

I know he is different from they way he was then but how do you know that for sure?

BH, I realized that I didn't answer your question earlier about kiss moving in. I don't think I failed to answer intentionally. But when I think about the answer, I have to say that I honestly don't know. I think the pain of the past is still holding me back.

Anyway, thanks for letting me vent. Hopefully I'll be out of my funk before kiss comes over after work smile
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/06/12 10:15 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen

I know he is different from they way he was then but how do you know that for sure?


You'll know he's changed when it becomes so obvious that you don't even need to ask the question..... Other than a complete change of psyche, you still have a pig, but with lipstick.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/07/12 01:31 AM
tst- I am surprised that you say that. Can you tell me why? I felt that our recovery was going well and we are looking forward to speaking to the coaching center on Tuesday. I'm interested in your viewpoint.

RQ
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/07/12 02:10 AM
RQ,

If you feel things are going well, why are you asking this question?

YOU are the only one that knows your husband intimately. Either you feel he has made a complete change in his psyche or he's just a con.

And why would you be suprised by my saying this? When I came home the first time and I was no more than a pig that had put on lipstick. It was a false recovery!

The real recovery was unmistakeable to my wife because she could see I had a complete change of psyche.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/07/12 05:44 AM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Sooo, I just took a crappy walk down memory lane while mowing the lawn. I started thinking of all the lies that kiss had told me, all the games he played with my head and my heart. How he would tell me he loved me and missed me and I would give him another chance and then he would have sex with skank the next day. Not once but twice! So much pain and hurt.

I know he is different from they way he was then but how do you know that for sure?

BH, I realized that I didn't answer your question earlier about kiss moving in. I don't think I failed to answer intentionally. But when I think about the answer, I have to say that I honestly don't know. I think the pain of the past is still holding me back.

Anyway, thanks for letting me vent. Hopefully I'll be out of my funk before kiss comes over after work smile

Wow listen to your radio clip again. I think it was very optimistic, don't you think?

Did you have kiss listen? What did you both think?
I figured Dr. Harley would say for your family to stay out of it for now.

Sorry for your funk today. Did you get out of it? I would keep looking forward and your appointment with Steve Harley. I am excited for you about this. Like Dr. Harley says "he thinks you're on the right road to recovery".

I hope you feel my hug for you hug
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/07/12 11:00 AM
tst - I do feel that he has changed a lot. He is doing everything I ask of him and meeting my needs every day. It's just my own fear of going through "that" again. That is something I need to work on.

BH- we did listen to it together last night. Kiss said that it wasn't true that he blames me for the affair, which took a weight off my shoulders. He also didn't like that Dr. Harley called him "foggish". LOL

I think we are on the right track to recovery and I know that these funks will happen but will happen less and less. I am looking forward to our appointment and interested to see how SH will help us. We also ordered one of the workbooks and kiss ordered HNHN on audio book.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/07/12 11:10 AM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
tst - I do feel that he has changed a lot. He is doing everything I ask of him and meeting my needs every day. It's just my own fear of going through "that" again. That is something I need to work on.

BH- we did listen to it together last night. Kiss said that it wasn't true that he blames me for the affair, which took a weight off my shoulders. He also didn't like that Dr. Harley called him "foggish". LOL

I think we are on the right track to recovery and I know that these funks will happen but will happen less and less. I am looking forward to our appointment and interested to see how SH will help us. We also ordered one of the workbooks and kiss ordered HNHN on audio book.

Do you think he is still "foggish"?
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/07/12 04:42 PM
He was foggy when it came to him defending his A with skank and he was foggish when he was justifying it (his first post). But now that the A is over and we don't talk about it, he's not. KWIM?
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/07/12 04:47 PM
I know exactly what you mean, RQ. That's how it went with my H too at the beginning of recovery.

The workbook will help you guys TREMENDOUSLY, I feel.

And I agree with HPB: I knew immediately when H was really ready for recovery. Something was different. Of course...that doesn't mean that I wasn't still fearful or that I trusted him immediately or that everything was great at that point. I just knew when he the tipping point had been reached.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/07/12 05:15 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
tst - I do feel that he has changed a lot. He is doing everything I ask of him and meeting my needs every day. It's just my own fear of going through "that" again. That is something I need to work on.

BH- we did listen to it together last night. Kiss said that it wasn't true that he blames me for the affair, which took a weight off my shoulders. He also didn't like that Dr. Harley called him "foggish". LOL

I think we are on the right track to recovery and I know that these funks will happen but will happen less and less. I am looking forward to our appointment and interested to see how SH will help us. We also ordered one of the workbooks and kiss ordered HNHN on audio book.



Let me tell you how to let go of that fear; by knowing full well that should you get a whiff of him heading down infidel lane ever again, you will scuttle his tailpipe so fast it will make his head spin, and you will never see or speak to him again.

Maybe... MAYBE you thought this before you actually had to deal with this in actuality. But, NOW you need to KNOW - make a promise to yourself - that he will be amputated like a cancerous limb if he does not live up to your terms for the continuation of this marriage. You need to steel yourself that should this occur, that your life will go on, and can be a full, happy, satisfying life without him. Once you know that you can extend that branch to him; join me, or don't.


What did Dr. H say about your situation of separation right now? You know that the work of recovery will actually work better and faster if you are in the same home? Sleeping in the same bed.

How about this; quit circling the pool dipping your toe, and get in the water.

Making a full attempt at recovery does not immediately relinquish your right to divorce.


Give it a 6 months of SOLID effort. If that goes well, give it another 6 months. If those go well, give it another year.

If after 2 years your marriage isn't better than it ever was before his affair(s?), then divorce.


6 months of full steam ahead will give you a better idea than a year of a one-cheek job.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/07/12 07:40 PM
Sunny, I'm glad that made sense to someone. I'm hoping after the coaching session tomorrow that I will accept that he is fully "on board"

HHH- Thank you! I did make it quite clear to kiss that any contact with OW and we are done! I know that I have the strength to follow through on that and be better than OK standing on my own. Thank you for reminding me of that.

Dr. H did say that we should be living together under the same roof. He has been at the house often and spending the night. He just hasn't physically moved his things in. In fact a few people have told me to have faith and jump in but I have been afraid of a false recovery. Guess it's time to get the whole body wet...
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/07/12 07:56 PM
VERY wise post by HHH!!!
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/08/12 01:24 AM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
I'm hoping after the coaching session tomorrow that I Dr. H did say that we should be living together under the same roof. He has been at the house often and spending the night. He just hasn't physically moved his things in. In fact a few people have told me to have faith and jump in but I have been afraid of a false recovery. Guess it's time to get the whole body wet...


So when are you going to listen to Dr. H?

So sorry about the problems with your family. That doesn't help when you need a support system.

What do you think about Dr. Harley's advice about telling your family to "back off for now"?

Here are your clips so others can listen too.

Radio clip of RQ
Segment #2
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/08/12 01:51 AM
BH- I'll have to go all in soon. I need to talk to him about it.

I know that you have seen the recent post on kiss's thread. And while I appreciate their intentions, they are not helping things. I've told them that if they can't support me and continue to criticise me then I will have to stay away from them. It's tearing me up but as Dr Harley said "they are complicating an already complicated matter". We need to focus on recovering us first.

Thanks for posting the clips. You rock!
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/08/12 03:32 AM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
BH- I'll have to go all in soon. I need to talk to him about it.
I know that you have seen the recent post on kiss's thread. And while I appreciate their intentions, they are not helping things. I've told them that if they can't support me and continue to criticise me then I will have to stay away from them. It's tearing me up but as Dr Harley said "they are complicating an already complicated matter". We need to focus on recovering us first.

Thanks for posting the clips. You rock!

Yes I saw your family's response. I just hope they respect Dr. Harley's advice to you.

Keep us updated on what Steve says.

I hope you take Dr. H's advice. smile

Well tomorrow's your day. You have your apt with Steve and it's your HappyBirthday
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/08/12 01:25 PM
HAPPY BIRTHDAY, RocketQueen!!!!!

I hope you take some time off and just have a good time today.

smile
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/08/12 03:19 PM
Awwww, thank you!

Kiss is on the phone now with SH, I'm anxiously awaiting my turn. LOL
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/09/12 01:16 AM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Awwww, thank you!

Kiss is on the phone now with SH, I'm anxiously awaiting my turn. LOL


How was your birthday? How did your call go with Steve?
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/09/12 02:25 AM
It was a great day, lots of UA time with kiss. Then we all went out to dinner at this little Mexican restaurant. The Macarena came on so I made the kids get up and do it with me LOL! It was a lot of fun!

The call with Steve went really good. We are working on "healing the injury" and "getting it cleaned out". Kiss felt very good about the call and said he was very comfortable with it. SH asked us to fill out another EN questionnaire and the Lovebusters questionnaire for our next appointment. I felt really good about the session and am glad that it finally happened. It was a very wonderful birthday!
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/09/12 12:18 PM
You know I'm going to ask.

What did Steve say about having kiss move back in?

What did he say about your family?
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/09/12 04:44 PM
He said to listen to the wise words I was already given and that the recovery and re-building would be much easier to do and see if we are living together. I spoke to kiss briefly about it but we did not set a date for it. I'll speak to him about it agian.

We did not speak about my family. It was difficult not speaking to my mother on my birthday but she did text me smile
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/09/12 11:10 PM
So since you've now been told by Dr. Harley and Steve Harley that he should move back in.

Do you feel better about having him move back in?
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/10/12 12:09 AM
I'm working on it....It's just hard. The house I m in now is where I had to go to get away from him and his cake-eating. It is/was my safe haven. That's hard to let go of even though he is here most of the time. I also feel a little bit of resentment. He put me, my kids, and my family through months of hell. Now I'm supposed to just let him get back everything he lost? What about what I lost??

Sorry, I needed to vent I guess. Feeling a bit of the anger today.
Posted By: fifteenyears Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/10/12 12:53 AM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
I'm working on it....It's just hard. The house I m in now is where I had to go to get away from him and his cake-eating. It is/was my safe haven. That's hard to let go of even though he is here most of the time. I also feel a little bit of resentment. He put me, my kids, and my family through months of hell. Now I'm supposed to just let him get back everything he lost? What about what I lost??

Sorry, I needed to vent I guess. Feeling a bit of the anger today.


RQ,

My H moved out (originally to have his own affair but even after it ended he was still reluctant to come back) and I begged him to come back. He said he wanted to but he felt a lot like you. He did not know what he wanted, did not want to be hurt again, felt like I had not suffered enough for what I did etc...

It was very hard but I did give him his space for awhile. I then however decided that we were not going anywhere without living together under the same roof. Even if you get time together it is just not the same.

I know it was hard for both of us for him to come home. At first he constantly reminded me that this was a trial basis and that he was really home for the kids sake more than my own. It hurt to hear this but I know that it is what he needed to say and feel in order to take the next step.

HHH could not have given you better advice. Take it one day at a time but honestly to truly recover you have to do it under one roof. Otherwise you are in limbo. I know you are scared and it will be scary for awhile (I saw this in my H's eyes and still see it at times) but you have to work together under one roof to rebuild and make your marriage safe and sound.

My H and I have just started really feeling whole again. I can guarantee that we would not feel this way however if we were not under the same roof, working together.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/10/12 01:53 AM
15, Thank you. What you say (and what HHH said) makes so much sense. But you're right, it is really scary. I feel like the little kid on the super high diving board saying "Ok, this time I REALLY am gonna jump!"
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/10/12 03:09 AM
Well, I tried to talk to him about it and he said he is "not crazy" about moving into this house. Not sure where that leaves us.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/10/12 03:15 AM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Well, I tried to talk to him about it and he said he is "not crazy" about moving into this house. Not sure where that leaves us.


What? Why not?
Posted By: Northwood8900 Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/10/12 05:11 AM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Well, I tried to talk to him about it and he said he is "not crazy" about moving into this house. Not sure where that leaves us.


Next time, ask for a real answer or, at least, some clarification instead of you leaving the conversation confused.

Unless the conversation was going downhill and needed to end to avoid a conflict...
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/10/12 01:57 PM
He said that the house has "issues". The only issues it has is that it is MINE. It is a beautiful home and I think I did a really good job finding it, decorating it and making the kids comfortable in it during a stressful time.

Anyway, he told me this morning that he would like to move in. As we were both heading out to work, we agreed to talk about it later.

Unfortunately, I feel like I took the jump and hit concrete. It was really hard for me to extend the offer and I was really hurt by his response.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/10/12 02:00 PM
I'm assuming he feels this way because this house is "your" house and there are bad memories associated with it - him coming over there and your refusal to see him, etc...

In one sense it's his own dang fault. In another, it would be nice if you could move into a place that is fresh and new.

But... it is what it is. I mean, there was a lot of ugliness that occurred in our home too and that we have to live with. I guess the difference is that this was our home for years before the A. In your case, it's a place you went to get away from him. How long before the lease is up?
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/10/12 02:30 PM
What about POJA a new place?
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/10/12 02:53 PM
Our marital home is sitting empty and is being foreclosed on. He had wanted to move us all back in there, but it has too many bad memories for me. Plus, the house has been a finacial strain on us for awhile.
I don't technically have a lease but I would hate to leave the house after only being there for 2+ months. And I'm sure the landlord wouldn't be very happy about it.
A new place would be nice but rentals are hard to find in my school district, especially a 3 bedroom.
We will def have to POJA on this!
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/10/12 07:47 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Well, I tried to talk to him about it and he said he is "not crazy" about moving into this house. Not sure where that leaves us.


WOW! dramaqueen

Such a fog head! Can we get a big fog horn a blowin'




Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen


Unfortunately, I feel like I took the jump and hit concrete. It was really hard for me to extend the offer and I was really hurt by his response.


I'm so sorry RQ.....
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/10/12 08:34 PM
Thanks tst. By the way, he doesn't like your posts smile I think you might get through to him eventually

We will be doing a follow-up with SH early next week, I hope. We just have to coordinate our schedules.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/10/12 08:36 PM
Originally Posted By: HerPapaBear
Can we get a big fog horn a blowin'


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMy0H_ySfp0






Rocket - you... gave him a choice?


He DOESN'T GET A CHOICE!

He either get's his [preemptive apologies to the mods] freaking ass back home, or he bugs off FOR GOOD.


He's "not crazy" about MOVING HOME WITH HIS WIFE AND CHILDREN?


Right.


Then he must be "crazy" about being removed from your life, right?
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/11/12 03:52 AM
Originally Posted By: HoldHerHand
Originally Posted By: HerPapaBear
Can we get a big fog horn a blowin'


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMy0H_ySfp0



HHH, That was a great video! rotflmao
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/11/12 03:55 AM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Thanks tst. By the way, he doesn't like your posts smile I think you might get through to him eventually



Some of us are just in the slow learners section! When he's ready, he can join me there. wink
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/11/12 07:27 AM
Originally Posted By: HerPapaBear
Originally Posted By: HoldHerHand
Originally Posted By: HerPapaBear
Can we get a big fog horn a blowin'


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMy0H_ySfp0



HHH, That was a great video! rotflmao



More technical specs than I ever cared to know about foghorns... it was a beast though, wasn't it?
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/12/12 04:56 AM
RQ,

How are you doing? Still having problems with the family I see?
Posted By: Pantsonfire Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/12/12 11:42 AM
Brain Hurts - Rocket would have no "problems with the family" if Kiss didn't insist on constantly bashing them far and wide to everyone that will give him an audience. Rocket has asked him to stop and has addressed it on this forum. He refuses. I thought the purpose of this forum was for the two of them to address the issues in their marriage that led to the affair and fix it. Instead he has used it as open season on her family (Mom especially) and he is far from truthful. His indiscretions as far as the affair goes would have been forgiven as soon as Rocket gave the word. These constant attacks make it obvious that he wants her to have no relationship with her family.
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/12/12 12:18 PM
Originally Posted By: Pantsonfire
Brain Hurts - Rocket would have no "problems with the family" if Kiss didn't insist on constantly bashing them far and wide to everyone that will give him an audience. Rocket has asked him to stop and has addressed it on this forum. He refuses. I thought the purpose of this forum was for the two of them to address the issues in their marriage that led to the affair and fix it.


Pantsonfire, (Love the name)

Read the introduction to the forum. The purpose of this forum is very clear....

Then read the 10 basic concepts for a greater understanding of the Marriage Builders Program. It gives you the highlights.

Originally Posted By: Pantsonfire
Instead he has used it as open season on her family (Mom especially) and he is far from truthful. His indiscretions as far as the affair goes would have been forgiven as soon as Rocket gave the word. These constant attacks make it obvious that he wants her to have no relationship with her family.



The extended family is now a distraction. It's best for this couple to put extended family on the back burner for a short time and address the marital issues. The rest will fall into place if RQ decides her WS is worth the risk..... albeit a big risk, it's still a decision she needs to make on her own.

BTW, There are no "constant attacks" on the extended family happening here on this forum. And IMO, as long as the "extended family" agrees to stop giving advice, that is no longer welcome, all the relationships will have a chance to heal.

My extended family has learned to be respectful of our marriage and our time. It has been difficult for all of them, but at nearly five years, everyone is beginning to see the fruits and all are enjoying the harvest.
Posted By: Pantsonfire Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/12/12 02:57 PM
Papabear - With all due respect - I know you have read Kiss' thread. To the family those are constant attacks. We give no advice however, when we did it was merely reenforcement of what you and the others here told her. We are on the back burner. In fact we used to be a happy loving family and now we barely speak at all. You would think leaving the family alone - especially at Rocket's request if not ours, would be easy enough for him to do, but as you know - he doesn't respect her wishes.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/12/12 05:37 PM
So... you... signed up for an account... on an anonymous forum... to... attack her husband...




... why?


Anyway... yes. You need to be left alone. And you need to step the heck off and let your sister/daughter/cousin/whatever work on her marriage. Quit being a chittering distraction.

Of course you don't like kiss... he violated someone you love. That's pretty horrible.


Know what?

My wife did the same to me.

Know what else?

If any of my family ever did as you are right now, these posts would hae effectively written them out of my life.


So, why don't YOU respect Rocket, AND BACK OFF.
Posted By: Pantsonfire Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/12/12 06:39 PM
Gee no, I didn't just sign up for an account to attack her husband. In fact I didn't attack her husband at all. I signed up to defend my family from the lying and slandering and attacking he is doing over on his thread. I merely asked him to respect the family's and his wife's wishes that he discontinue the practice and leave us alone. I certainly think we deserve to be left in peace. I don't dislike kiss because he hurt someone I love, like I said that was forgiveable if that is what Rocket wanted. His attacks on the family is the issue and I would really like him to stop like Rocket has asked him to. If you read the post we have backed off so far we rarely speak. I pity your family that you don't believe they deserve a modicum or respect. We are only a distraction because kiss insists on making us one. I only posted here in response to Brain Hurts.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/12/12 06:53 PM
My marriage and my wife deserve respect, and if my family cannot do that, then they need to go.

My vows hold me to such. Even though my wife made the choice to break them, I did not.

If my wife were to "attack" my family, my first question would be; why?

You see, when I married my wife I made a commitment to "leave my family and cleave to my spouse."

That means that if my wife and my family are incompatible, I choose my wife. That was my vow. That was her vow.

I vowed to honor the bond of marriage over blood ties.


That means if my family chooses to act in a manner that is disrespectful to my spouse (and as such disrespectful to my marriage, and then by proxy disresepctful to ME) that I will brush them aside as any other threat to my marriage.


Respecting my family has nothing to do with allowing them to meddle in my marriage or disrespect my spouse - and respect is a two-sided coin. Disrespect my spouse, disrespect my marriage, disrespect me... you get neither respect nor disrespect in return. You get Plan B.


I would advise that you take the time to read the concepts here so you have a better idea about what is going on... "the family" is an afterthought when it comes to repairing the marriage at this point.

First off, Kiss needs to return to the marital home as Rocket has invited him to.
Posted By: pokerface Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/12/12 07:00 PM
Originally Posted By: Pantsonfire
We are only a distraction because kiss insists on making us one. I only posted here in response to Brain Hurts.


Pantsonfire. I'm sorry that this has happened to your family. Have faith in SH who RQ and Kiss are counseling with. It is a process. Give it time to work.
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/12/12 09:15 PM
Originally Posted By: Pantsonfire
Papabear - With all due respect - I know you have read Kiss' thread. To the family those are constant attacks.


I'm sorry for your pain. It's probably best if you would choose not to read their threads on Marriage Builders.

Those closest to the situation usually have a very difficult time when they see all the dirty laundry that is being aired out. But the family needs to realize the WS needs a place to put it all out there, the good, the bad, and the ugly.

As you've seen, we will call him on his bull.... And yes, we know there is a lot of bull left in there, it's just best if you let us call him out, if you KWIM. He will not get a free pass, OK!

Originally Posted By: Pantsonfire
We give no advice however, when we did it was merely reenforcement of what you and the others here told her.


Again, let us call him out. Please...


Originally Posted By: Pantsonfire
We are on the back burner. In fact we used to be a happy loving family and now we barely speak at all.


Again, I'm so very sorry. Adultery leaves behind so much collateral damage. Kiss is still pretty clueless to all the collateral damage, that's why we say he is still foggy.
It takes average waywards 6-9 months before they clear their heads enough to see all the damages. Some clear up quicker, but many do take much longer, and regretfully, some never recover.


Originally Posted By: Pantsonfire
You would think leaving the family alone - especially at Rocket's request if not ours, would be easy enough for him to do, but as you know - he doesn't respect her wishes.


Again, it takes time.

He will either learn to respect his wife or she will put his things out on the curb again. Trust RQ to know, she has become a very strong woman through all of this.

Again, I'm sorry for your pain....

God Bless!
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/13/12 01:53 AM
Thank you everyone for your support.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/13/12 02:32 AM

Originally Posted By: Pantsonfire
Brain Hurts - Rocket would have no "problems with the family" if Kiss didn't insist on constantly bashing them far and wide to everyone that will give him an audience. Rocket has asked him to stop and has addressed it on this forum. He refuses. I thought the purpose of this forum was for the two of them to address the issues in their marriage that led to the affair and fix it. Instead he has used it as open season on her family (Mom especially) and he is far from truthful. His indiscretions as far as the affair goes would have been forgiven as soon as Rocket gave the word. These constant attacks make it obvious that he wants her to have no relationship with her family.
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Thank you everyone for your support.


Have your shared with your family what Dr. Harley has advised you when it comes to them and your M?
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/13/12 01:10 PM
I have avoided talking to the family, especially about my marriage. I had spokento them proir to their posts about the wayward mind and it taking time to accept blame. They should have bwcked off before and wllowed the process to work.
I will be wpeaking t them today because i wm tired of this.

HAPPY MOTHERS DAY TO ALL MY FELLOW MOMS OUT THERE!
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/13/12 01:48 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
I have avoided talking to the family, especially about my marriage. I had spokento them proir to their posts about the wayward mind and it taking time to accept blame. They should have bwcked off before and wllowed the process to work.
I will be wpeaking t them today because i wm tired of this.

HAPPY MOTHERS DAY TO ALL MY FELLOW MOMS OUT THERE!


Maybe have them listen to the radio clips with Dr. Harley? I posted them on yours and kiss's thread.

Happy Mother's Day, my friend.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/13/12 05:49 PM
Well, they have denied posting although I know they are lying. I asked them not to post anymore but we'll see. Thank you for posting the radio clips for them to listen to but I don't know if they have. If they haven't, I REALLY THINK THEY SHOULD!!!
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/13/12 06:09 PM
Having read POF's posts on both threads, I'd have to say, and I mean this as objectively as I can manage, that POF is much less concerned with your welfare, RQ, than his (her?) own private agenda.

To discover who in your family is responsible for the cowardly posts, I'd suggest looking for the person in your family with the biggest ego, and the smallest reason for it! Unless your family is a collection of loudmouth losers (and I'm betting NOT, since you exhibit little of those characteristics), it should narrow the choices down quite a bit.

I'm sorry POF has your welfare so poorly in mind, RQ. You don't need POF's moronic contributions to entangle your situation more than it is.

And, btw, being such an arrogant little [censored], POF has likely already told other members of your family what he/she is doing. Ask around, you might uncover this earthworm without much trouble.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/13/12 06:13 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
I have avoided talking to the family, especially about my marriage. I had spokento them proir to their posts about the wayward mind and it taking time to accept blame. They should have bwcked off before and wllowed the process to work.
I will be wpeaking t them today because i wm tired of this.

HAPPY MOTHERS DAY TO ALL MY FELLOW MOMS OUT THERE!


RQ, I would be encouraging him to not act like a punk around your family. He is not the victim here, after all. It helped my husband tremendously to go to my family and apologize for his despicable behavior. And while your husband might be foggy and doesn't feel "sincere" he needs to stop blaming the victims. Help him be a MAN and not a punk, rocketqueen. Raising the bar on my husband helped him be a better man.

Your family has been hurt just as you have. Their reaction is in response to his scummy behavior. Beating them up for their reaction is cruel and ungrateful especially since they were there for you when your husband betrayed you.

Please insist that he come back and post to me and tst... Running from criticism is not going to help him one bit.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/13/12 06:54 PM
Do you think your family would be more supportive if they felt your H was more contrite?

You have expressed your own concerns about his not being remorseful enough...so I think that is part of the problem. They should stay out of the middle of it yet your H needs to realize he brought this on himself, with his bad behavior.

I was fortunate in that I didn't have to deal with a ton of fallout from my extended family since we all live far apart. It was hard when my brother came to town though and my H had to see him for the first time. My brother was so gracious to my husband...but mainly because he knew through our conversations that H was doing everything he could to make things right. In turn, H was very humble and gracious towards my brother as well.

I don't know what your family dynamics are; everyone's different. Some people live in families where everyone's always up in each other's business, trying to run each other's lives. My cousins are all like that. I don't have that with my brother - or even with my parents. I don't think I would want to either! It typically causes a lot of problems.

What was your relationship like with your family before the crisis? Do you think it was a problem in your marriage or is this a result of the A? I think it would help differentiate not to just negotiate the current goings on but so you can understand how better to deal with the situation in the future.

Mel's right: it is up to your H to do the heavy lifting, at least to some degree. Even with my kids I know my H (when he was still foggy) was angry with our kids for "siding" with me. In his fog he truly thought they would support him! He had to suck it up and mend those fences. But, he had more at stake, being his children.

Everyone involved needs to remember that this is a marathon and it takes time.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/14/12 02:00 AM
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane

RQ, I would be encouraging him to not act like a punk around your family. He is not the victim here, after all. It helped my husband tremendously to go to my family and apologize for his despicable behavior. And while your husband might be foggy and doesn't feel "sincere" he needs to stop blaming the victims. Help him be a MAN and not a punk, rocketqueen. Raising the bar on my husband helped him be a better man.

ML - He hasn't been around the family AT ALL and he doesn't blame them for anything. But before he could apologize, he was told not to bother and was verbally attacked here.

Originally Posted By: MelodyLane

Your family has been hurt just as you have. Their reaction is in response to his scummy behavior. Beating them up for their reaction is cruel and ungrateful especially since they were there for you when your husband betrayed you.

Please insist that he come back and post to me and tst... Running from criticism is not going to help him one bit.


I understand my family's hurt. They stood by my side the whole time and did everything I asked them to. They did not want to get involved but they did everything I asked them to because they could not stand by and watch the destruction going on. It is only because of them that I was able to survive my WH's affair. I had lost 40 lbs, I was in the hospital for dehydration and I was a nervous wreck. My MOM was the one who came to the hospital because my WH was too busy texting his skank ho. I absolutely understand their hurt. I am not trying to beat them up. But I need them to know that I do not deserve the hurtful texts and e-mails I had received nor do I appreciate them posting here and interfering in our recovery.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/14/12 02:08 AM
Originally Posted By: SunnyDinTX
Do you think your family would be more supportive if they felt your H was more contrite?

You have expressed your own concerns about his not being remorseful enough...so I think that is part of the problem. They should stay out of the middle of it yet your H needs to realize he brought this on himself, with his bad behavior.


After speaking to Dr. Harley, I was told that I should not expect an apology for some time. And to instead look at my WH's actions as just compensation. It is only recently that my WH removed the blame from the A off of me.


Originally Posted By: SunnyDinTX
What was your relationship like with your family before the crisis? Do you think it was a problem in your marriage or is this a result of the A? I think it would help differentiate not to just negotiate the current goings on but so you can understand how better to deal with the situation in the future.


The family had always been very close. We also live very close to each other. I'm not sure what problem you are referring to specifically but there weren't any clashes prior to my WH's affair.


Originally Posted By: SunnyDinTX
Everyone involved needs to remember that this is a marathon and it takes time.


Exactly!
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/14/12 02:17 AM
I wish everyone would listen to what Dr. Harely has said to you.

Here are your clips so others can listen too.

Radio clip of RQ
Segment #2
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/14/12 02:38 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Originally Posted By: SunnyDinTX
Do you think your family would be more supportive if they felt your H was more contrite?

You have expressed your own concerns about his not being remorseful enough...so I think that is part of the problem. They should stay out of the middle of it yet your H needs to realize he brought this on himself, with his bad behavior.


After speaking to Dr. Harley, I was told that I should not expect an apology for some time. And to instead look at my WH's actions as just compensation. It is only recently that my WH removed the blame from the A off of me.


Originally Posted By: SunnyDinTX
What was your relationship like with your family before the crisis? Do you think it was a problem in your marriage or is this a result of the A? I think it would help differentiate not to just negotiate the current goings on but so you can understand how better to deal with the situation in the future.


The family had always been very close. We also live very close to each other. I'm not sure what problem you are referring to specifically but there weren't any clashes prior to my WH's affair.


Originally Posted By: SunnyDinTX
Everyone involved needs to remember that this is a marathon and it takes time.


Exactly!



I understand that it may take awhile for the apology to come and to look for actions. I'm just suggesting that because your family doesn't understand the program, etc... that perhaps if you have been relaying your feelings to them about wanting him to be more remorseful, they are feeding off of that.

And I didn't mean you had any specific problems with the family before all of this. It was just a question to examine that possibility, if it existed. My cousin's H, for instance, feels he has no say in his own life half the time because my cousin's sister and mother dictate everything and my cousin lets them... He's very resentful about it. It's a disaster waiting to happen. Again - not saying that's the case in your family. Just wanted to flesh out the possibility that part of this is raises its ugly head because of the past. If it is solely because of your H's affair and how he treated you while wayward... then that is different.

In my case, it helped that I educated my brother and SIL on the whole concept of waywardness and the MB program. I also explained to them that I didn't blame myself at all for my H's affair, but that I had responsibility in our marriage getting to the point to where it made it easier for him to cross boundaries. Obviously they know about MB - and about this site. They may not understand it, however. If they truly want to know what it's all about and to help you at this point, then it would behoove them to get educated.

In any case, you don't need or deserve nasty emails or texts directed at you. You are right to set some boundaries. But at some point, your H is going to have to reach out to your family and express his regret for what happened if those fences are going to be mended. It will be up to him to do the heavy lifting in that department. The priority, of course, is that the two of you work recovery together and get to a healthy point.

I don't think it's been spelled out as to how all this family nastiness came about. If you were complaining about your H one day and then told them the next that you were taking him back, it probably raised their eyebrows quite a bit. With all the wavering going on, they were as confused as you were. ???

For me, I viewed recovery as a closed door to everything and everyone else. Once H committed to it and he had met my EPs, I shut down the negative talk about him to my family and friends. I felt I had to protect the marriage in its fragile state. That meant no more talk about what had happened or how hurt I was or anything else - and just sharing the positive things about what we were doing. I had to lead and have confidence in what I was doing so others could have faith in it... including my own children.

Right now it doesn't matter so much how all this came about as it does that it stop. Everyone needs to take a time out. When feelings aren't so flustered perhaps it will be much easier to negotiate new terms of familial relationships.

I liked HPB's post - that your family needs to trust that with SH counseling you all and if Kiss remains posting here - he will get called on his stuff enough, without them needing to be the ones to do it.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/14/12 02:59 PM
And another complicating factor, RQ.....

Can you imagine how difficult it will be for your WH to "isolate" the different inputs from your family, and keep those jumbled interpretations separate from those YOU supply?

Sorry, if this seems like I'm giving you the burden of fixing this, but until Kiss gets his act entirely together (if ever) you have to bar your family from "pissing in the soup-pot".

Or not....
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/14/12 04:59 PM
SunnyD, I have been avoiding discussing anything about our recovery with my family so I'm sure what they know is what I have posted on here. But I had spoken to a family member weeks ago about the wayward mind. I asked her if I should believe that my WH's A was because I was a frigid, sloppy, b*och the way he said I was in his first post and she said no. So I said "then why would you believe what he says about you??" I think it is still hard for her to grasp.
This is just part of the issues I am dealing with. I also recently learned that he has yet to speak to my DS21 and that my son is not too thrilled about WH being here often let alone moving in.
It seems that there is still a lot of cleaning up to do after the "hurricane" before re-building can start. Kiss better grab a broom and get started! I totally agree with ML that he needs to man up and stop hiding.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/14/12 05:13 PM
RQ, just because your husband is foggy does not mean your family is obliged to accommodate him. He doesn't get a pass. He is not saying things like that to you now and I doubt you would tolerate it for 2 seconds if he did. Nor should your family tolerate it. Being foggy is not an excuse for bad behavior. It is a sign that he needs to change his behavior and wake his ass up.

I would stop defending your husband and tell him he needs to handle the problem with your family. Your husband is in the wrong here, not your family.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/14/12 05:23 PM
ML, I'm not disagreeing with you. I just don't know if I am supposed to stay out of the middle, defend my marriage or defend my family. I have been told by Dr. Harley to have my WH move in, tell my family to stay out of it and not to expect an apology for some time. I am hearing many conflicting things so I am not sure what my next step is....
But I know that he should be apologizing to them and speaking to others about his A because it is causing me unhappiness and I am reading Lovebusters and that is one of the basic concepts
"Do whatever you can to make your spouse happy and avoid anything that makes your spouse unhappy, even if it makes you unhappy"
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/14/12 06:12 PM
...you have to bar your family from "pissing in the soup-pot". - the amateur NG

...told by Dr. Harley to have my WH move in, tell my family to stay out of it - the expert Dr. H

Well, having roughly the same advice emanating from sources from the ridiculous to the sublime, I would suggest that you have a clear direction, RQ.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/14/12 06:50 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
After speaking to Dr. Harley, I was told that I should not expect an apology for some time. And to instead look at my WH's actions as just compensation.


I would heed the advice of the licensed psychologist with decades of experience who has saved thousands of marriages, and assembled the very program we advise from... and also his children... and then his coaches.

I see your situation, and the echoes of a particular letter preceding an infidelity article just echo through my head over and over...


"DO NOT JUDGE HER!"



The thing is... if your husband provides just compensation it is possible that you could forgive him before he apologizes. And right now, that apology would only be a paper thin token.

His actions will define his remorse, his repentence.


Wife beaters apologize between beatings.


His actions over time should speak remorse.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/14/12 07:18 PM
NG - yes, you both agree on the same point LOL. But the family demanding an apology which everyone here thinks he should give is conflicting with telling them to stay out of it and quit "pissing in the soup pot". KWIM?
HHH- Exactly how I feel this should be played out. One side of me feels that I should be stepping back and allowing things to happen. The other side of me feels I should be trying to fix things just as I have been doing for the last 6+ months.
Do you happen to have a link to that letter? I would love to read it!

PS If you are referring to the apology to me, I understand what Dr Harley said about not expecting one so soon and I understand the any given to me right now would be insincere. It is his actions that matter
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/14/12 07:42 PM
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5033b_qa.html

Mind you, that is a response to a BH and how to handle his WW.


You may feel better reading the articles aimed at BWs;

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5032a_qa.html

You'll find that Dr. Harley's advice lacks the flourish we peers tend to pile on.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/14/12 08:06 PM
HHH- I read the letters you posted, thanks. Do you mean that WH should not be judged? Do you think that is what I am doing? Is there something I should be doing? I just want to be clear on what it looks like to an "outsider". Thanks so much for your help!
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/14/12 09:24 PM
RQ,

I love Dr. Harley!

I love when people follow his advice, they increase their chances of success.

But I know Dr. Harley doesn't live in your home, you do!
And I know Dr. Harley doesn't have to live with your unrepentant husband, you do!

I also know Dr. Harley would never personally recover a marriage where infidelity has occurred, let alone recover one without an apology. But here you are......

So the decision really comes down to; what are you willing to live with?
It's your decision!

I highly recommend you make ABSOLUTELY no major life changes for one year. You can see how things progress in the area of repentance and make adjustments accordingly. (I will add that my wife refused to move ahead unless I was 100% visibly repentant. It was a wise choice on her part)

The thing you don't even realize yet; You really haven't even started the painful journey of recovery yet. The first 12 months will be incredibly difficult once he's moved in. And there is a great deal of drama already brewing. Can you both keep focused? Can you both help your children heal? can you both work the program and meet the UA every week? Are YOU willing? Is HE willing?


The MB Program is a narrow road to follow and it's really quite simple, but it's NOT easy! It's WORK 24/7 that will reap great rewards or be a path riddled with resentments......

And it takes two 100% committed people!







Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/14/12 11:23 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
ML, I'm not disagreeing with you. I just don't know if I am supposed to stay out of the middle, defend my marriage or defend my family. I have been told by Dr. Harley to have my WH move in, tell my family to stay out of it and not to expect an apology for some time. I am hearing many conflicting things so I am not sure what my next step is....
But I know that he should be apologizing to them and speaking to others about his A because it is causing me unhappiness and I am reading Lovebusters and that is one of the basic concepts
"Do whatever you can to make your spouse happy and avoid anything that makes your spouse unhappy, even if it makes you unhappy"


RQ, you might not expect an apology, but others do. Your family does apparently. If that is what it will take to mend this rift, why wouldn't he volunteer to make that relationship right? You shouldn't even have to ask him. Others here can see that he is not accepting consequences for his actions. Perhaps you can't hold him accountable, but others here CAN. For him to put you at odds with your own family is despicable and guess what? I will not hesitate to tell him so.

Please stop protecting your husband and send him back on this forum. Tell him to demonstrate his sincerity and come on back here and post to us.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/14/12 11:29 PM
And why is your family angry at him? Because the lamb was singing too loud in church? Or is it because he committed the equivalence of RAPE on his wife?

RQ, you don't have to demand that your WS apologize or do anything. He doesn't have to do a damn thing. That doesn't stop me, tst, others here, or your family from suggesting he put on his big gurl panties and stop being a wedge between you and your family. Your family does not deserve his ungrateful, rude treatment..

Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/14/12 11:34 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
ML, I'm not disagreeing with you. I just don't know if I am supposed to stay out of the middle, defend my marriage or defend my family.


Agree you should stay out of the middle. Your h is a big boy and can handle it on his own.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/14/12 11:49 PM
"My heart is in this 100 percent what ever it takes. I love my wife more then life its self. I will do anything she needs. I do not want our marriage to go back to the way it was. I want us to have the best marriage ever. I want us to be best friends."

There ya go, RQ! Your H said this on 4-27 so it appears he is willing to do whatever you need. You don't even have to ASK him to make this right with our family. He says here he is willing. Please ask him to come back here and speak to me.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/15/12 12:49 AM
But the family demanding an apology which everyone here thinks he should give... is NOT Dr. Harley's advice, nor is it NG's! (And just for giggles, I'll offer that this would most likely divide along gender lines.)

Once in a while the "group-think" starts its own momentum. I believe this is one of those times.

But let's not do this in a vacuum. Your family has butted themselves into your situation with their "demands". How exactly well has THAT worked out for you?

Most men are infinitely more susceptible to enticement than extortion. How do you think WH is viewing the "clan's" involvement in YOUR MARITAL SITUATION right now?

But like I said, it's your life...Keep abdicating your responsibility to maintain barriers to entry to those who have no business within, and watch how quickly WH's absence becomes permanent.

You have received the advice to that end of a wise and considered counselor...and Dr. Harley as well!

(I fully expect hammers for this post, so I'll not be back!)
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/15/12 12:49 AM
Originally Posted By: BrainHurts
I wish everyone would listen to what Dr. Harely has said to you.

Here are your clips so others can listen too.
]



Brainhurts, most of us have listened to those clips. I listened before I ever posted to KISS. Those clips address RQ's demand that he apologize to her parents. And she is following that advice to the letter as far as I can see!

That doesn't mean I won't or can't address his nasty behavior towards her parents. I pledge to continue doing that.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/15/12 12:56 AM
Originally Posted By: NeverGuessed
[

But the family demanding an apology which everyone here thinks he should give... is NOT Dr. Harley's advice, nor is it NG's! (And just for giggles, I'll offer that this would most likely divide along gender lines.)


Lets get the facts straight, shall we? Dr Harley did not tell the rest of the world they could not bust his ass about his miserable treatment of her parents. Dr Harley told *HER* - RocketQueen - to not demand such a thing. Which she is doing. That does not mean I will stop calling him out for his trashy treatment of her family. Especially after what he has done to RQ and to the family.

That is not going to go unmentioned by me, no matter how foggy the little lamb is.

Quote:
But like I said, it's your life...Keep abdicating your responsibility to maintain barriers to entry to those who have no business within, and watch how quickly WH's absence becomes permanent.


If he runs because he is asked to face the consequences of the rightful anger of others, that doesn't say much about his sincerity, does it now? That can't be blamed on others.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/15/12 01:55 AM
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: BrainHurts
I wish everyone would listen to what Dr. Harely has said to you.

Here are your clips so others can listen too.
]

Brainhurts, most of us have listened to those clips. I listened before I ever posted to KISS. Those clips address RQ's demand that he apologize to her parents. And she is following that advice to the letter as far as I can see!

That doesn't mean I won't or can't address his nasty behavior towards her parents. I pledge to continue doing that.


Totally agree. I was implying to her family since they were on both threads.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/15/12 02:04 AM
Originally Posted By: BrainHurts
[

Totally agree. I was implying to her family since they were on both threads.


I gotcha! I am hopeful that he won't have to be ASKED to make this right. He needs to volunteer. We will see what he is made of if he comes back.
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/15/12 02:31 AM
ML,

I'm not sure he'll be back.....


He reminds me so much of myself during our FALSE RECOVERY!

I was willing to do whatever it took to keep the focus off myself and the blame shifting around to everyone else..... It kept SMB so off balance that I never had to do any of the hard work and she just kept right on accepting responsibility for everything...

I was in heaven as a cake eating wayward POS...... I'm so ashamed of the man I was then! I just wish Kiss didn't remind me of him so much!


I so wish RQ could go back in time and stay in Plan B just a bit longer..... wink
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/15/12 03:01 AM
I told kiss that he needs to come here to see what people have to say to him and to post.

He said that he is "frustrated" and that it is "too much to deal with"

banghead
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/15/12 03:04 AM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
I told kiss that he needs to come here to see what people have to say to him and to post.

He said that he is "frustrated" and that it is "too much to deal with"

banghead

Dang him. I guess all our suspicions have been correct thus far. So hoping he wouldn't let you down RQ.

Sorry.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/15/12 03:07 AM
Originally Posted By: HerPapaBear
ML,

I'm not sure he'll be back.....


He reminds me so much of myself during our FALSE RECOVERY!

I was willing to do whatever it took to keep the focus off myself and the blame shifting around to everyone else..... It kept SMB so off balance that I never had to do any of the hard work and she just kept right on accepting responsibility for everything...

I was in heaven as a cake eating wayward POS...... I'm so ashamed of the man I was then! I just wish Kiss didn't remind me of him so much!


I so wish RQ could go back in time and stay in Plan B just a bit longer..... wink


So agree!
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/15/12 03:09 AM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
I told kiss that he needs to come here to see what people have to say to him and to post.

He said that he is "frustrated" and that it is "too much to deal with"

banghead



dramaqueen does he want a hankie? crybaby
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/15/12 03:44 AM
Just had a discussion with WH about why I wasn't happy. His attitude makes me want to vomit. I especially wan't happy to find out that he "disappeared" last night to his condo without me knowing.
I'm Ok
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/15/12 03:54 AM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Just had a discussion with WH about why I wasn't happy. His attitude makes me want to vomit. I especially wan't happy to find out that he "disappeared" last night to his condo without me knowing.
I'm Ok


I guess the fog keeps getting thicker and thicker.

What was his excuse for "disappearing"?
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/15/12 04:13 AM
He was pissed that I asked pantsonfire and sublimination to listen to the radio clips. Of course, I didn't know that until an hour ago. Transparency went right out the window.
I don't know how I'll be able to sleep tonight.
ugh
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/15/12 04:15 AM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
He was pissed that I asked pantsonfire and sublimination to listen to the radio clips. Of course, I didn't know that until an hour ago. Transparency went right out the window.
I don't know how I'll be able to sleep tonight.
ugh


Can you take a long hot bath and take some sleep aide?

Dang him.

Did your family listen to the clips?
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/15/12 06:17 AM
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: BrainHurts
[

Totally agree. I was implying to her family since they were on both threads.


I gotcha! I am hopeful that he won't have to be ASKED to make this right. He needs to volunteer. We will see what he is made of if he comes back.


I hear you my friend. Hopefully kiss will hear you also.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/15/12 07:14 AM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
I told kiss that he needs to come here to see what people have to say to him and to post.

He said that he is "frustrated" and that it is "too much to deal with"

banghead






Forums?

Puh.

That's a pittance for a man who is still living separately from his wife.

You could cool off about the forums... and set the bar thusly;

Online program, home study, or phone coaching... or Plan FU----> Plan B-----> Plan D.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/15/12 07:21 AM
Originally Posted By: HoldHerHand
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
I told kiss that he needs to come here to see what people have to say to him and to post.

He said that he is "frustrated" and that it is "too much to deal with"

banghead

Forums?

Puh.
That's a pittance for a man who is still living separately from his wife.

You could cool off about the forums... and set the bar thusly;
Online program, home study, or phone coaching... or Plan FU----> Plan B-----> Plan D.

They are phone coaching with Steve and kiss is the one who set it up. confused
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/15/12 08:13 AM
Blah!

I'm only tracking like 5 people right now and can't keep it straight!


Rocket,

I'm sure it's a shock going from SH to the forums for your H. Honestly, if he is phone coaching with Steve and continues to do so, no need for him to come back here. SH will sell him on this better than any single person here could, making him worth every dime.

Calm, breathe... follow your plan from Steve.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/15/12 08:28 AM
Originally Posted By: HoldHerHand
Blah!

I'm only tracking like 5 people right now and can't keep it straight!


Rocket,

I'm sure it's a shock going from SH to the forums for your H. Honestly, if he is phone coaching with Steve and continues to do so, no need for him to come back here. SH will sell him on this better than any single person here could, making him worth every dime.

Calm, breathe... follow your plan from Steve.

hurray
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/15/12 10:58 AM
HHH- he started here on the forums. He has only coached with SH one time and we haven't scheduled another appt yet.

At this time, I decided it's better to hold off on him moving in until he is serious about our recovery. He needs to think more of how things have affected me and are still affecting me and the kids and less about how HE feels about things.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/15/12 11:00 AM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Just had a discussion with WH about why I wasn't happy. His attitude makes me want to vomit. I especially wan't happy to find out that he "disappeared" last night to his condo without me knowing.
I'm Ok


I hate to tell you this, but just the fact that he is running from your family and this forum is a big red flag that he is not serious. He was only serious enough to throw you enough crumbs to get you out of Plan B. Like tst noted, he is behaving exactly like he did when he was faking it. The reason he dislikes the forums is because we have good bullsh** detectors and he doesn't like that. If he were serious, he would have nothing to run FROM. I would keep a very close eye on this one.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/15/12 11:36 AM
Melody, I agree with you. I felt that he told me what I wanted to hear to get me to open the door for him. Now I am hearing that he is NOT willing to do whatever it takes.
He hasn't really shown that he is serious yet. All talk, very little walk.
I am upset with myself that I didn't keep that bar high like I had told myself to and allowed myself to get weak and needy. I had let him steam roll me and throw my requirements on the back burner. I won't let it happen again!
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/15/12 12:04 PM
Let me put it this way, a WS who is serious will stay and ardently try to PROVE it. A WS is not serious will run because he can't prove it. There are too many bullshi**ers here for him to be able to pull a fast one.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/15/12 12:23 PM
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Let me put it this way, a WS who is serious will stay and ardently try to PROVE it. A WS is not serious will run because he can't prove it. There are too many bullshi**ers here for him to be able to pull a fast one.

So back to a dark Plan B until he can meet your requirements?
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/15/12 04:44 PM
Quote:


SH will sell him on this better than any single person here could, making him worth every dime.



Personally, once a BS is in plan B, they shouldn't need to sell their WS on any program..... They shouldn't need Steve or anyone else to "sell" anything to them either.


The WS should NEVER be in a position to negotiate their return. They either agree to the requirements that are spelled out in the PlanB letter and/or the requirements spelled out prior to coming out of PlanB..... There is no sell job necessary! They either agree to it or the BS remains in PlanB.

As in this case, when a WS agrees to the requirements, he either follows through or the BS re-enters PlanB again.....

Kiss is clearly reneging on his requirements!


A WS doesn't "deserve" a second chance.
They "deserve" a divorce.
The grace of the BS allows for a second chance (if they so choose)!
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/15/12 05:18 PM
Plan B was very, very difficult for me and the kids and I would loathe to have to return to it.

I do think I need to seriously consider if I am still willing to work on this marriage when he is not. No matter what I do, I still have to carry the scar of his affair on my heart everyday for the rest of my life....
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/15/12 05:50 PM
Kiss reminds me of myself while I was in the beginning of our False Recovery......

It all began when N/C wasn't being honored by me.....

I question whether Kiss is still N/C.....
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/15/12 06:10 PM
A large part of the problem here is that there never was a plan B. Hence the false recovery, I'm sad to say.

Plan B IS hard, RQ, but can't you see how much harder THIS is??? Death of a thousands knives...
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/15/12 07:04 PM
tst - please don't say that!

SunnyD- I know. I would plan D before I did Plan B again, though. I can only give someone so many chances.
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/15/12 07:47 PM
{{{{{{{{{{{RQ}}}}}}}}}}}}}
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/15/12 11:15 PM
RQ, it might not be what you want to hear, but the fact that you took the step to open the door for him to come home, and he has excuses not to is very fishy.

HE is the one who screwed up, he should be chomping at the bit for a chance for redemption and reconcilliation.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/16/12 02:37 AM
Thanks HHH. You would think so, huh?

I feel totally broken hearted right now. Kiss took his clothes that were here and left tonight. I felt it was the right thing to do right now until it we seem a little more stable.
Can I scream and cry that life is not fair??! Why must I continue to be in pain and hurt for something that was not my own doing?? My family is upset with me, my WH finds me unworthy and I am just so lost.
When will my life ever be "normal" again? I hate this hurt..

Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/16/12 02:56 AM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Thanks HHH. You would think so, huh?

I feel totally broken hearted right now. Kiss took his clothes that were here and left tonight. I felt it was the right thing to do right now until it we seem a little more stable.
Can I scream and cry that life is not fair??! Why must I continue to be in pain and hurt for something that was not my own doing?? My family is upset with me, my WH finds me unworthy and I am just so lost.
When will my life ever be "normal" again? I hate this hurt..



I'm so sorry, RQ. As hard as you believe Plan B was - just remember - it was that hard because you weren't really IN it. Plan B, done correctly, will bring you relief. Doesn't mean it won't hurt, but it's much better than THIS.

(((((ROCKET)))))
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/16/12 03:10 AM
It has been exactly 6 months since d-day#1.

Seems like yesterday...
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/16/12 07:01 AM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
It has been exactly 6 months since d-day#1.

Seems like yesterday...

Read these by sexymamabear. Your stories are similar.
Sexymamabear's Thread
Sexymamabear's Threads
SMB's Thread
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/16/12 03:25 PM
Thanks for the links, BH. I had read one of her threads awhile ago and have been wanting to re-read it. I don't think I realized there was more than one though! Hopefully it will quiet down here at work so I can read them smile
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/17/12 03:19 PM
*deleted
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/17/12 05:25 PM
Herpapabear - would you mind sharing about the fall of '07, during the FR?
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/17/12 06:05 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Herpapabear - would you mind sharing about the fall of '07, during the FR?

Have you read his thread?
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/17/12 06:11 PM
Did you go into Plan B?
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/17/12 07:20 PM
BH - I'm pretty sure I have before but it begins in 11/07. I'm reading SMB's now.
Not in Plan B
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/17/12 09:05 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
BH - I'm pretty sure I have before but it begins in 11/07. I'm reading SMB's now.
Not in Plan B

Did you read this one? HerPapaBear's Thread
Posted By: unwritten Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/17/12 10:23 PM
I have been reading this recovery thread, sounds like you have another one in SAA but I can't find it?
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/17/12 11:41 PM
unwritten, it got lost frown
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/18/12 08:15 PM
I realize now that I need to focus on my own personal recovery before I move onto any kind of marriage recovery. I need to focus on dealing with the anger, the depression, and my feelings of low self-worth that are a result of my WH's affair.
Right now I have to heal, or I can't move on. I have been trying to do both and it doesn't work.
I will be lurking, but I won't be posting for awhile until I get these feelings sorted out.

<3 RQ
Posted By: unwritten Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/18/12 08:34 PM
HUGS to you RQ. Keep posting, it can only help you to have people to vent to who have been there.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/19/12 02:49 AM
RQ hug

You do know kiss's affair was because of his poor boundaries, correct?

I'm all for self improving but worried you're blaming yourself.

MB can help you heal yourself, my friend. Stay around.
Posted By: estrela Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 05/21/12 07:23 PM
RQ - I think we are in similar places in a way.

As I learned, the very best way to get your feelings sorted out is Plan B.

I know you did not have a good experience with yours, but it was only because it was never truly implemented.

I am going in for my second round, and even having the best experience on first round (truly gave me back my sanity, self-confidence, peace), I also had excuses before moving forward this second time.

It can only be BS fog.

Please consider entering a good, dark, safe Plan B.

It is not about giving your M another chance. It is about being in the best place to see through BS and WH fogs, and then being able to make clear decisions.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 06/01/12 01:53 PM
Hi everyone. Still working on my personal healing. I realized that some may read this thread and wonder about the before so I thought I would fill in the blanks from before my WH and I began recovery.

It pretty much started October 25th, 2011 (at least thats what I think). My WH was upposed to meet me at my parents house for a birthday party but after not showing up for awhile, I texted him and found out he was hanging out at a local bar...by himself. He gave no expalnation for it (I later learned that he was on the phone with skank for an hour while there, their first "meaningful" converstaion).

For the next 3 weeks I got the cold shoulder from him, working late, sleeping on the couch, wouldn't kiss me, wouldn't say I<3U. Finally I couldn't take it anymore and asked him what I did that was so terrible to be treated like that. He told me that we were miserable, that the marriage wasn't working, no- counseling wouldn't help and that he wanted to split up. I was devastated and surprised to hear that I was miserable. Two nights that week he didn't even come home. Finally, on the 14th of November, he agreed to counseling and to give me another chance to be a better wife to him. The next day, feeling suspicious by his strange behavior, I checked the cell phone bill and found out about OW (AKA skank).

More to come...
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 06/01/12 02:20 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Hi everyone. Still working on my personal healing. I realized that some may read this thread and wonder about the before so I thought I would fill in the blanks from before my WH and I began recovery.

It pretty much started October 25th, 2011 (at least thats what I think). My WH was upposed to meet me at my parents house for a birthday party but after not showing up for awhile, I texted him and found out he was hanging out at a local bar...by himself. He gave no expalnation for it (I later learned that he was on the phone with skank for an hour while there, their first "meaningful" converstaion).

For the next 3 weeks I got the cold shoulder from him, working late, sleeping on the couch, wouldn't kiss me, wouldn't say I<3U. Finally I couldn't take it anymore and asked him what I did that was so terrible to be treated like that. He told me that we were miserable, that the marriage wasn't working, no- counseling wouldn't help and that he wanted to split up. I was devastated and surprised to hear that I was miserable. Two nights that week he didn't even come home. Finally, on the 14th of November, he agreed to counseling and to give me another chance to be a better wife to him. The next day, feeling suspicious by his strange behavior, I checked the cell phone bill and found out about OW (AKA skank).

More to come...


You see it now it was because he was in an affair in the deep fog, correct?
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 06/01/12 02:28 PM
Oh yes, BH, I know. And he has admitted as much and released me from any blame. But this is how it was in the beginning. I truly thought that I was a bad wife and had to change to convince him to stay. Of course I realize now that while I wasn't a great wife and did need to change my habits (meeting his EN's), that wasn't the reason for his affair. Especially since I plan A'd him like nobodies business and that didn't keep him home.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 06/01/12 02:34 PM
I called the number on the bill (which showed numerous calls that lasted a long time and numerous texts at all hours of the day and night) and a girl answered. I hung up on her and the rest is kind of a blur. I remember texting my WH and asking "WHO IS SHE??" (stupid I know in doing so and the delivery) and got the "nobody, just a friend I talk to". I knew it was more but he denied, denied , and denied and weeks went by when she was "just a friend". I knew she was a co-worker but he refused to give me her name, let me talk to her, or anything. I believed him. But I told him that it was inappropriate for him to speak to her and that I didn't like it and that I didn't want him doing it anymore. He thought it was "no big deal". And even though the calls and texts lessened, they never stopped and it would kill me when he would leave for work everyday because I knew he would be spending the next 11 hours working side by side with the skank.

It was at this time that I started to snoop and found out the truth
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 06/02/12 03:16 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen

I knew it was more but he denied, denied , and denied and weeks went by when she was "just a friend". I knew she was a co-worker but he refused to give me her name, let me talk to her, or anything. I believed him.


mr eek I am challenging you to look at what you wrote with fresh eyes.

"I knew it was more" <~~~ OK. But what you actually are saying is that you suspected there was more. Your gut feeling was telling you there was more going on. Yet, you had no proof. Right?

"He denied, denied, and denied" <~~~ OK. What is significant in this? You wrote it 3 times. Denials that are repeated over and over do not prove anything at all. Most 'guilty' criminals will plea "not guilty" in court. Denials are not proof. Repetative denials are not only not proof, but are actually suspicious ! skeptical

"He refused to give me her name, let me talk to her, or anything" <~~~ OK. He denied wrongdoing (denied, denied, denied) but refused to cough up facts to prove his innocence.

THEN YOU WROTE crazy
"I believed him." <~~~ Based on what? He did not offer proof of his innocence. He did not demonstrate significant care for your feelings.

In my opinion, your lesson to be learned here is to assume WH knows how to play you like a maestro plays a Stradivarius.

Stand your ground.
You require proof, not promises.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 06/02/12 03:26 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen

I truly thought that I was a bad wife and had to change to convince him to stay. Of course I realize now that while I wasn't a great wife and did need to change my habits (meeting his EN's), that wasn't the reason for his affair.


Here's another one of my hunches.
Failure to meet some of WH's ENs (prior to D-day) may not be as significant as you think. I suspect you were pretty average as far as ENs goes.
Always room for improvement in every marriage.

I suggest you look towards examining love-busters instead.

So many times, both the faithful spouse and the unfaithful spouse jabber on & on about "failure to meet ENs" .... and completely forget about the love-bank withdrawals, love-busters.

I can be a *star* EN-filling wife one day. But it all will be for naught if I also am a love-buster by habit. It took me a long time to identify myself this way. I want to pass along what I discovered.

The love bank can take loads of EN deposits .... but you won't make anyone happy until the hole in the bottom of the bank (love-busters) is repaired.

Food for thought?
Posted By: Letty Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 06/02/12 08:20 PM
hi RQ. i lost your thread! glad to have found it here on the recovery board.

where are you today? how are you?
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 06/03/12 01:41 AM
Originally Posted By: Pepperband


Here's another one of my hunches.
Failure to meet some of WH's ENs (prior to D-day) may not be as significant as you think. I suspect you were pretty average as far as ENs goes.
Always room for improvement in every marriage.

I suggest you look towards examining love-busters instead.

So many times, both the faithful spouse and the unfaithful spouse jabber on & on about "failure to meet ENs" .... and completely forget about the love-bank withdrawals, love-busters.

I can be a *star* EN-filling wife one day. But it all will be for naught if I also am a love-buster by habit. It took me a long time to identify myself this way. I want to pass along what I discovered.

The love bank can take loads of EN deposits .... but you won't make anyone happy until the hole in the bottom of the bank (love-busters) is repaired.

Food for thought?



You are absolutely right. Him lovebusting me would make me do the same to him and round and round we go. One thing I have learned is to speak my mind. Whenever I was upset about something I would hold it in until it was a humongous weight that exploded from me. Not pretty! I am actually reading "Lovebusters" now.

Letty - I'm hanging in there. Kiss and I have not been working on recovery very well and I had a talk with him last night. Again, it came to me verbalizing my needs to him rather than what I have been doing...withdrawing and expecting him to know what I need. I think he responded well but we'll see. I need actions from him, not "I'm gonna..."
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 06/03/12 01:53 AM
So I started to snoop and found out skank's name. It wasn't easy as most of their communication outside of work was by text and he had his phone constantly by his side. In bed with him, in the bathroom with him, etc. And when I confronted him with her name after an argument, he said it was wrong (it wasn't). We started going to MC together but as he still denied a relationship with this girl and that was the only thing on my mind, we stopped going.

I did plan A him but we were constantly fighting about his "friend". I would demand the truth and he would get mad at me for asking and would not come home at night or sleep on the couch. He would avoid me and the kids like we had a contagious disease. I felt heartbroken for my kids. They would ask "where's daddy" and I had to say "I don't know". The tension at home was unbearable when he was there, but it was somber when he wasn't. I was preparing for Plan B but still needed that one piece of proof that told me that my gut was right. That I wasn't over-reacting and making up something that was not true.

Finally, on January 18th, I had my proof and it shattered my hurting heart into a hundred pieces.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 06/03/12 08:39 PM
I was hoping to write more today but it had quite an affect on me yesterday and I was a mess last night. Will write more when I can.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 06/07/12 05:01 PM
RQ thinking about you, how are you doing?
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 06/07/12 06:56 PM
Unwritten, I'm doing OK. I was just reading through your thread the other day. I'm feeling much as you are it sounds like. NG is a shark, isn't he? And I mean that in a good way.
WH believes that we should be focusing on the present and the future and not living in the past. I think he has a point in that I need to concentrate on what he is doing NOW and what our future looks like. That sounds great and I wish I could do that. But my mind and my heart won't let me just yet. The hurt is always there and the memories of that awful time are always on my mind.

Question for anyone, do you find yourself triggered by things you read on the SAA forum? Kiss thinks that it doesn't help me to read those posts and keeps me in the past. Does anyone avoid the SAA forum because of the triggers? Just curious. I agree to a point with him, but it's not like the A isn't on my mind most of the time anyway, KWIM?
Posted By: unwritten Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 06/07/12 07:19 PM
I have struggled immensely with focusing on the future, much less the present, and not dwelling on the past, clearly. Dr H's recommendation to never talk about A's again??? Just felt to me like H was getting away with highway robbery. I have seen progress though. The progress comes when I feel, even slightly, that H has a little bit of a grasp on the damage he caused. I dwelled on it and as he said 'twisted the knife in' over and over because I just felt like he didn't GET IT. And I was going to make him get it, one way or the other! Once I started to feel he understood the true extent of how bad he has hurt me, or the damage he has caused our M, then the past and nailing him with it didn't seem as important anymore. Not sure where Kiss is there, but that was my experience (still is my experience, still in the mix of it, I guess).

My H also says he feels like being on the forums too much is wallowing in the A, that it is unhealthy at some point to be on the forums. To some extent, I agree. No offense to anyone here, but I think those who know my thread will agree with me here. I know that rather than TALKING about it I need to TAKE ACTION on it, and actually work hard to recover rather than complain about why we aren't recovering. But that all being said I've learned so much on these threads, that I have been able to apply to my own situation. Every day I read new comments from one person or another that make me see things in a whole new light. I can only think that is good for us at the end. Also, after I found out about H's PA, I told very few people. A couple close friends, who wanted me to leave him and didn't want to hear about anything unrelated to leaving him. I felt very isolated and alone, and that nobody understood what I felt like. Being on here has obviously made me realize there are many, many people who know exactly what I feel like. And people who want to see my M recover and don't just want to help me find a place to hide a body.

I think it is a process. I have times now where I step away from the forums for a few days, and I know you do too. Maybe those days get longer and longer. But I do think it is good to always know you can come back for support, when you need it. I assume, since I am nowhere near it, that the stronger your M gets, the less you need this support. But hey, what do I know.

Glad to hear you are doing ok. Keep us updated.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 06/07/12 07:21 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen

Question for anyone, do you find yourself triggered by things you read on the SAA forum? Kiss thinks that it doesn't help me to read those posts and keeps me in the past. Does anyone avoid the SAA forum because of the triggers? Just curious. I agree to a point with him, but it's not like the A isn't on my mind most of the time anyway, KWIM?


Yup. That's why we have posters who leave and never come back because they don't like the triggers and pain it invokes in them.

Kiss may be onto something with you. You are the one that knows yourself and what you can or can not handle.

So does it cause YOU too much pain to read the SAA forum?
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 06/07/12 07:36 PM
Unwritten - you are right about needing the support. I have no one else to talk to about it since I am avoiding discussing things with my family and Kiss doesn't want to talk about it...so I come here. Otherwise, I feel pretty darn lonely. As for them "getting it", I honestly don't think our WS's ever will since they didn't live it like we did.

Brain - I think in some ways it does cause too much pain and I should avoid it. I usually just read the advice given to the WS's to see if kiss is doing what others are being told. But maybe since he is now posting (sort of) then I can stick to the Recovery forum.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 06/07/12 07:46 PM
I find it hard to not compare my H to other more seemingly regretful WH's, but I think that is a dangerous place to go. My WH would never take the time to post here or seek the help that some WH's have, much less put his all into saving our M right now. Thus, my crazy babbling thread. I have to kind of step back and not compare him to what other former WH's do, and have to accept the progress HE is making, I guess.

The support is crucial. I know that feeling of isolation, it sucks.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 06/07/12 07:54 PM
My concern is this:

Does your H want you to stop coming here because he doesn't like that we all expect his actions to be better than they are? I know he probably doesn't like that a lot that is said on both of your threads comes down to him stepping up his game in recovery efforts. Maybe he knows if you stop visiting the forum that your expectations will lower.

Having said, that, I do know that reading CAN trigger thoughts of the past and bring up negative emotions. At the same time, it is important to work through these negatives properly - not just avoid them.

Only you know what is best for you, RQ, but be careful that you don't take actions based on improper motivations.

It's been 18 months since my H and I started recovery. He wouldn't dream of telling me not to come here, knowing it helps me have support AND helps us as a couple as well as helps me be a better spouse to him. But yes, there are times when I've taken breaks when needed too.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 06/08/12 02:39 AM
unwritten- yes. I think we all want our WH's to be like Herpapabear!

SunnyD- I think his concern is valid because he sees how I get sometimes after reading here, but he understands that I need the support I receive from here too. But you could be right in that he knows when I am on here that I getting the strength to keep on his a$$. smile
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 06/08/12 03:20 AM
Question to test your powers of observation;

Think of a poster or two for whom you have a strong admiration. Think of their posts.

Now think, in all of their posts, how often do they mention their own marriage, at all, let alone any of the bad times...

Do they have their own thread?

How often do they update it?


Why do you think that you gave the answers you did to the previous questions?
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 06/08/12 01:44 PM
HHH- The two posters I admire the most would have to be SunnyD and Neak. When they speak of their marriage, they speak of the here and now and not much of the past. Though it looks like it took some time to get to that point. They both have their own threads but Neak hasn't updated hers since February.

I am more of a thread jumper and can't say that I have read some of the threads all the way through. That is something I would like to do.

As for the answers I gave, I'm not sure which ones you are referring to. If you mean the ones I just gave in this post, I can see that it will take time and that I need to focus on the here, now and future and stop wallowing in the past. But I also know that I need to see actions on his part to be able to forgive and move on.
Posted By: SS1 Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 06/08/12 03:18 PM
HI RQ (I don't know if you remember me but you were the first one to respond to my post, and for that I will always be thankful)

As for me, this site has been a godsend. I truly believe I would be in the process of D without it. Being able to read the articles, threads, and interact with people that have been there, done that, has been so helpful. That said, I visit and post here and there when I feel I need some support or advice. I am having trouble letting go of the past (aren't we all) and I do feel that, for me, spending too much time on this site makes it harder to let go of the past.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 06/08/12 04:11 PM
SS1 - of course I remember you and hope you are doing well (I'll check your thread in a minute).

I agree that this site has been a godsend and I have learned so muh and am grateful for the support from those who got me through the dark days.

I have been thinking a alot about spending time on this site and I think it is a good thing right now as it
1) Validates us in where we have been, and what we are doing and
2) keeps us from letting go of the past- as in letting down our guard (what was that saying about those who forget history are destined to repeat it?)

I don't want to live in the past but I do want to make sure that I have learned from it (as well as my WH) and that we are doing everything possible to prevent any future unhappiness ( whether A-related or not)

I also believe that if we had faith in our WS's that they were doing the work in recovery, we wouldn't be here so much wink
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 06/08/12 05:23 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen

I have been thinking a alot about spending time on this site and I think it is a good thing right now as it
1) Validates us in where we have been, and what we are doing and
2) keeps us from letting go of the past- as in letting down our guard (what was that saying about those who forget history are destined to repeat it?)

I don't want to live in the past but I do want to make sure that I have learned from it (as well as my WH) and that we are doing everything possible to prevent any future unhappiness ( whether A-related or not)

I also believe that if we had faith in our WS's that they were doing the work in recovery, we wouldn't be here so much wink


RQ, first, let me say, I'm flattered. smile

I think you hit the nail on the head in your last sentence here. I would advise you more confidently to take a break from the site if your H was showing 110% effort with every fiber of his being. In the posts from both of you, it has not appeared to be the case. Thus, I would hate for you to take off and have him gaslighting you and getting away with it.

Having said that, I do not KNOW that your H is not giving 110%, only you can know that for sure. There have been signs, however, in that he won't do certain things towards recovery that you need him to do and SHOULD be done, via the MB plan. So, it throws up red flags. Conversely though, you have worked with SH who has given you advice to move forward. But - has that advice been with the full knowledge that your H was not "all in?"

Where I see you sitting right now is in limbo. It's like both you and your H are sitting there with your feet in the water, waiting for the other one to get into the pool before the other one does. It's not going to work this way. You both have to dive in and get soaked, head to toe, and COMMIT to recovery.

I understand your reservations. I also understand your H's concerns, oddly enough. I know I had to make it VERY clear to my H that I was not going to stand there, whip in hand, ready to punish him at every turn when we decided to reconcile. And while he needed to earn my trust and respect back, I had to treat him with respect even as I asked for EPs to be put in place and begin our new lives together. I can't tell you how many times he assured me he would do anything necessary for me to feel safe again. I had to assure him that our marriage would be more than good - it would be GREAT - and that I wanted him to be happy too; I wanted to meet his needs.

It was the balance of both of us wanting an exceptional marriage that allowed us to jump in wholeheartedly.

Letting go of the past is hard; I'm not going to say it never enters my mind. But... I have the confidence in myself that the new me and our new marriage is better than anything that stupid affair EVER offered him! With that, and the grace of God, I press on. The support I have IRL is great but sometimes I need support from those that have been in my shoes...and I find that here.
Posted By: fifteenyears Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 06/09/12 04:44 PM
RQ and Sunny D,

From the other side of the fence, I could not agree with you more. I have learned so much from strong BS's like you and FWW like me (although I don't think I am quite ready for the F yet.

Thank you ladies for holding me accountable and teaching me what it takes to have and keep a GREAT marriage!

15Y
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 06/09/12 04:48 PM
RQ,

How are your and kiss's sessions going with Steve?
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 06/10/12 12:16 AM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
HHH- The two posters I admire the most would have to be SunnyD and Neak. When they speak of their marriage, they speak of the here and now and not much of the past. Though it looks like it took some time to get to that point. They both have their own threads but Neak hasn't updated hers since February.

I am more of a thread jumper and can't say that I have read some of the threads all the way through. That is something I would like to do.

As for the answers I gave, I'm not sure which ones you are referring to. If you mean the ones I just gave in this post, I can see that it will take time and that I need to focus on the here, now and future and stop wallowing in the past. But I also know that I need to see actions on his part to be able to forgive and move on.



Thanks.



I'll tell you my observation;

When I first started posting to others, I spent a lot of time "relating" to them by doing comparisons. When we show up here limping and broken, it's comforting to think someone else might "understand" our pain, right?

Pain - emotional, physical, psychological - is very intense and internalized experience. Something we cannot fathom anyone else outside of ourselves understanding. So seemingly finding that understanding seems like a relief at first.


But, over time I noticed that it stopped helping, and instead just kept me stuck in that pain.

So, when I see longer term posters, I notice that they rarely talk about their own marriage when talking to others, and when they do they a) stick to the here-and-now as you stated, and b) do not speak negatively about their spouse.

Once the concepts of this program are implemented, any and all complaints are taken to their spouse, not here.


Thinking of that made me take a second look at one piece of recovery advice; "Once all the details are known, do not bring up the affair again."


What I now realize is not bringing it up again applies not only to conversations with my spouse, but conversation at all. Even here.

It's why I dropped all the dates etc from my sig line.


The past is real, and it happened, but it will never change no matter how much I talk about it. Today and tomorrow I can set the pace for.



There are some rare gems from some long timers, things that I can truly see now as gifts; Pep sharing her stories, the occasions that Mel shares her stories, NG providing his. But those one-shot shares can come at an emotional expense to those posters... they really are a gift.


Just thought I'd share that thought and experience with you.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 06/10/12 03:22 AM
Thank you SunnyD, 15years and HHH for your kind posts. I am understanding more clearly now that I do need to focus more on the here and now and on rebuilding our marrage and focus more on the MB concepts. I don't want to be a victim anymore. Will I forget the past, never. Will I still need time to heal, of course. As HHH said "it happened, but it will never change. Today and tomorrow I can set the pace for" and as you said, Sunny, I need to concentrate on a better me and a better marriage. It is what both kiss and I want and if I have to take the lead, then so be it. I need him to put a little more effort into it so that we don't return to "status quo", but I think we are on the right track. I need to move on.

BH- we have not spoken to SH in 4 weeks but we have both agreed to schedue a follow up very soon. We just need to schedule a time together during the day, which is difficult to do.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 06/10/12 03:49 AM
Originally Posted By: fifteenyears
RQ and Sunny D,

From the other side of the fence, I could not agree with you more. I have learned so much from strong BS's like you and FWW like me (although I don't think I am quite ready for the F yet.

Thank you ladies for holding me accountable and teaching me what it takes to have and keep a GREAT marriage!

15Y


Get our there and do the work to earn the F, Fifteen!!! smile

Accountability in this is important - for both spouses.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 06/10/12 03:58 AM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Thank you SunnyD, 15years and HHH for your kind posts. I am understanding more clearly now that I do need to focus more on the here and now and on rebuilding our marrage and focus more on the MB concepts. I don't want to be a victim anymore. Will I forget the past, never. Will I still need time to heal, of course. As HHH said "it happened, but it will never change. Today and tomorrow I can set the pace for" and as you said, Sunny, I need to concentrate on a better me and a better marriage. It is what both kiss and I want and if I have to take the lead, then so be it. I need him to put a little more effort into it so that we don't return to "status quo", but I think we are on the right track. I need to move on.

BH- we have not spoken to SH in 4 weeks but we have both agreed to schedue a follow up very soon. We just need to schedule a time together during the day, which is difficult to do.


There's nothing wrong with you leading recovery, RQ. Look at it this way: if you are leading, in the sense that you set the terms of what makes you feel safe and how you want things done, that's a GOOD thing!

Now: your H should be leading in terms of willingness to prove himself and how committed he is...

See the difference?

I say it all the time: the best thing I did was decide to go back to school while my H was wayward. Well, that and I became more involved with my church's women's group. Not only did it give me strength and confidence, but it kept my mind busy and some goals to achieve. We take SUCH a hit to our psyche when our partner is unfaithful. I truly believe part of being able to enter into recovery without fear is in knowing that we hold within ourselves the power to be great: greater than any fantasy world our spouse lived through - because what we are building is genuine.

Nothing worthwhile never comes easy!

You know the secret to moving on once your spouse has shown proof of their commitment? Deciding to. Simple as that. You make the decision and you start acting on your decision, even when you don't feel like it. It's because we have A PLAN that we can do this: it takes over when emotions get overwhelming.

Without a plan, one drifts along wherever their feelings take them and that's not healthy!
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 06/11/12 03:58 PM
BH- Thanks for the links you have posted to him. Unfortunately, he has not been back to post or read as I have asked him to (or as he said he would).

SunnyD- I am having a hard time getting kiss to commit to te MB program. I really need him to post and read and to do our questionarres. I don't want to be the one with the "whip in hand" but I don't know what I can do. He already knows how important this is to me.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 06/11/12 04:50 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
BH- Thanks for the links you have posted to him. Unfortunately, he has not been back to post or read as I have asked him to (or as he said he would).

SunnyD- I am having a hard time getting kiss to commit to te MB program. I really need him to post and read and to do our questionarres. I don't want to be the one with the "whip in hand" but I don't know what I can do. He already knows how important this is to me.


Asking for him to commit to the MB program is not the same as "whip in hand," RQ! MB is as much for HIS benefit as it is yours! That's the beauty of it, in fact. It is designed so that BOTH partners get their needs met and are treated well. It PREVENTS "whip in hand" in fact. I don't know if your H just does not see this or he is just not all in on recovering your marriage. ???

What about doing the MB at home program? That's what we did. You have to be self-motivated and be absolutely certain to following it step by step, in a timely manner, but it can be done. There's also the online program and as you know, the personal counseling with SH.

If your H isn't willing to commit to at least doing the at home program, you have very good reason to be concerned about your future and whether or not you will recover. As it's always said - the road to marital recovery after an affair is a very narrow one. My H never posted here and we didn't do online or personal counseling. BUT...I was insistent that we follow the books/workbook to a tee. Once H got into it and saw that it wasn't a "browbeat the unfaithful spouse to death" program he HAPPILY did it. He WANTED us to have an exceptional marriage as much as I did. He didn't walk back into the marriage wanting the same old things that lead to the big crisis, that's for sure.

It makes a big difference when the unfaithful understands that the program is so you can have a happy future - it is NOT a punishment for what they did.

The only thing with doing the MB at home program is this: if your H is a reluctant participant, he will fight you every step along the way. That worries me. There HAS to be accountability - on both sides. If he WANTS a great marriage, he won't be bothered by that, or shouldn't be. In the at home program, you hold each other accountable rather than an outside source - and that can be hard if he is doing this kicking and screaming. Just to add, that's why he has been questioned on the boards to this point - his mentality. It's hard for anyone to see that he really WANTS recovery when he won't willingly see his own faults and stinkin thinkin in all this.

Do you think this has become sort of a stand off between the two of you?
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 06/11/12 06:05 PM
Sunny - It's more that he says he will and that he wants to, but then doesn't. I know that he wants a better marraige than we had before, he has said that from the beginning. So I don't know why I have to be nagging him to work on this. We plan on discussing it tonight. Hopefully, we can make some progress.
Posted By: Hopeful_Hubby Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 06/11/12 06:40 PM
What makes one ready for being a FWW instead of a WW in your opinion?
Posted By: Hopeful_Hubby Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 06/11/12 07:10 PM
Originally Posted By: fifteenyears
RQ and Sunny D,

From the other side of the fence, I could not agree with you more. I have learned so much from strong BS's like you and FWW like me (although I don't think I am quite ready for the F yet.

Thank you ladies for holding me accountable and teaching me what it takes to have and keep a GREAT marriage!

15Y


What makes one ready to be a FWW vs a WW in your opinion?
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 06/11/12 08:30 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Sunny - It's more that he says he will and that he wants to, but then doesn't. I know that he wants a better marraige than we had before, he has said that from the beginning. So I don't know why I have to be nagging him to work on this. We plan on discussing it tonight. Hopefully, we can make some progress.


So, do you think it comes down to laziness or procrastination then?

If that's the case, rather than reluctance, then you are both going to have to get strict with setting some deadlines in completing things, coupled with consequences when they don't get done. Consequences could be a call in to SH or another form of accountability, like confessing on here that you didn't do something...and having to take the licks for it.
smile

Can you assure us that there is no more gaslighting on his part? He's not telling you he wants to do it just to keep you off his back, right??? Remember...RADICAL honesty is expected between the two of you.

And for your part - are you staying clear of A talk and focusing on actions?

Tonight you guys need to sit down and focus on the BENEFITS of what the rewards of the MB program will bring to your lives - and not just yours - but your children's as well!
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 06/15/12 02:06 PM
SunnyD- Sorry I took so long to reply. I think the main problem is that he has not read many of the books and so doesn't know about things such as the Protections in Marriage, etc. I also think we are severely lacking in IC (I don't feel that he is being open and honest to me about what he feels or thinks, even though I straight out ask him). There is also a lack of accountablity and accounting of time. Yor question about gas-lighting, I don't think so but sometimes just a simple thing of him not answering my texts is a huge trigger for me and puts back to the A days. Sometimes I feel so weak and paranoid and like I am losing my mind. Anyway, I plan on printing out more EN questionnaires and having us fill them out.

On another note, our 11th wedding anniversary is this saturday. I went to the card store to get kiss an anniversary card. Ugh, what an awful experience. Any one of them I would have gotten a year ago, now...not so much. It made me sad...and it made me angry that he destroyed that in me. Going to try another store today and hope I can find something, but it will difficult and may walk out emty-handed again.

PS I am sttering clear of A talk and trying to watch his actions
Posted By: unwritten Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 06/15/12 03:46 PM
Are you and Kiss doing the at home program/online program at all? Or just separately reading some of Dr Harley's books? I forgot what program you are following.

I am not in a position to give advice as you know, but I will say that right now I generally go for the fun, playful cards and not the meaningfully written cards. Kinda feel like it will help recovery more to be playful than to add another heaviness to it. Plus, Hallmark doesn't make cards for this exact situation...
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 06/15/12 04:41 PM
Very true, uw! Perhaps a company should, they would do well, lol. Did not find anything at the last store I went to and even the funny ones had some note of ...blech.

We are not doing either program, but rather have the books and the workbook. I have read SAA, HNHN and Lovebusters. He has listened to HNHN on audio. I looked at the lovebusters questionaire and just couldn't think of anything to write. Neither one of us have AO's, selfish demands, etc. Well, we probably do, but not anything I can reflect back on and say, oh! That was a selfish demand. We do best with the EN's one. I think that one helps with conversation between us and opening up talk about unhappiness. We also still need to make an appt with SH. We won't have a day off together during the week until the end of June!
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 06/16/12 12:01 AM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
PS I am sttering clear of A talk...


Good. Every time you two discuss it, you take things back to day 1.

It's self-flagellation at it's worst.




Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
...and trying to watch his actions





While you do this, try to silence that inner gremlin that tells you he's full of crap (I would also suggest not listening to that little voice's advice to aerate him with a high-heeled shoe).



Stop bringing up the A, redirect your thoughts.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 06/16/12 12:37 AM
Have you seen Dr. Harley's new article?
How To Negotiate When You're An Emotional Person
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 06/18/12 02:19 AM
Thanks for the link, BH. It helps.

Got through the anniversary OK. Spent the earlier part of the day with my parents, brothers, in laws, aunt and my grandfather who was visting for the day. A bit awkward since kiss is still not welcome there. He has yet to speak to my parents and at this point, I'm not sure he will.

Then kiss and I went to dinner and to a play. We had a really nice time and I just focused on spending time with him rather than on our vows that he stomped all over. Had a rough spot earlier in the day but I endured it and then moved on.

We meet with the MC again on monday but I don't see that she is helping and would rather switch over completely to coaching with SH. Just have to convince kiss.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 06/18/12 04:55 PM
HUGS RQ.

Sounds like you had a good head on your shoulders on anniversary day. I agree it is best to focus on the moment instead of the meaning, right now.

I was thinking about you while looking for a Father's Day card for H. They didn't seem to make any fitting. I got one that said "Not long ago, a husband could come home to find his slippers, a drink, the evening paper, and his beautiful wife waiting for him. Oh well, at least you still get the beautiful wife part." Modesty at its finest.

Glad you and Kiss had a good anniversary.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 06/18/12 05:49 PM
I can totally relate to the card situation... it can be difficult finding something appropriate when the wounds are still so fresh. Just know that it DOES get easier with time! Next year it will a TON better and even more so the following year. It helps to keep in mind that your long-term goal of a great marriage is what's most important.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 06/18/12 06:00 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
SunnyD- Sorry I took so long to reply. I think the main problem is that he has not read many of the books and so doesn't know about things such as the Protections in Marriage, etc. I also think we are severely lacking in IC (I don't feel that he is being open and honest to me about what he feels or thinks, even though I straight out ask him). There is also a lack of accountablity and accounting of time. Yor question about gas-lighting, I don't think so but sometimes just a simple thing of him not answering my texts is a huge trigger for me and puts back to the A days. Sometimes I feel so weak and paranoid and like I am losing my mind. Anyway, I plan on printing out more EN questionnaires and having us fill them out.


PS I am sttering clear of A talk and trying to watch his actions


RQ, you need to set an agreed upon deadline for him to complete the books. The problem is, he can't possibly fully get why certain things are important (like answering your texts right away or being radically honest) if he doesn't have a good grasp on the basic principles of the program. Once he understands, my bet is he will follow through with actions much more easily.

The lack of accountability is a problem that must be addressed! If the two of you can't hold each other accountable, then it is essential that you do the online program or personal counseling with one of the MB marriage coaches so that you stay on track.

The books are easy to read and don't take long. Make this a priority! The questionnaires will need to be redone after awhile as your needs will change in different stages of recovery - or at least that was my experience.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 06/19/12 07:30 PM
Very true, but short of shoving the books in front of him, I just don't know what else to do. He just does not seem to be willing to learn how to have a great marriage using the MB concepts. Nor has he posted in a while. We spoke about this in MC last night and he will nod his head and say he will but is not following through in the actions. I don't know how much longer I will be able to hold on waiting for him to WANT this. I have read all of the books so far as well as all of the articles on here.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 06/19/12 09:13 PM
Well...it should have been a condition of your willingness to begin the road to recovery with him. Since it wasn't, I'm not sure what you can do either unless you are willing to play hardball. The thing is, the path to true healing only comes from having a better marriage - an EXCEPTIONAL marriage - after the affair. If that doesn't happen and real change doesn't take place, you are asking for trouble down the road. And this new marriage only occurs because of specific actions taken on a narrow road.

I would urge you to find it within you to make this MANDATORY or you will not find the peace you are looking for. We can all support you through that, but it has to be you that stands up for it, ya know?
Posted By: unwritten Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 06/19/12 09:52 PM
I don't know how to put that icon for banging your head against a wall...because I know exactly how you are feeling.

As you know RQ, I have been there! WHY oh why can the person who derailed the train in the first place and states they want to do !!whatever it takes!! to put it back on the tracks, just DO it. Stop talking about it, then being lazy about it, or whatever the heck their reason for not 'really' wanting it is, and just DO it. All talk no action. Its just completely and utterly frustrating.

Hugs to you. I have no advice, just want you to know you are not alone with this frustration.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 06/19/12 10:17 PM
I was just reading some stuff on chickadee's thread, wanted to write something to you in regards to one of your posts and not t/j. I know you have said that you didn't want or ask for any details from Kiss about his A. And I just read now that you feel he has still withheld details. Now I can only speak from experience, but the 'not knowing' has eaten at me over the years. I came to the point where I had to know ALL of the truth, every gorry detail. Not that I necessarily needed to know the actual detail as much as I needed to know that H was willing to give me ANY information I requested, in an O&H way. Whether that has happened remains to be seen, tomorrow at the poly... I just cannot move forward with recovery without knowing that H has been completely O&H with me. Being willing to tell me anything and everything, to me was part of 'getting it,' that he damaged me and he has to do whatever I ask to heal me and for a chance at recovery.

Since we have been at similar points in our recovery, not really able to put both feet in the water, I am thinking you might want to explore if this is a need you have too? To me, if Kiss is unwilling to give you ALL details or information you want to know, in an O&H way, then it doesn't fare well for his true commitment to recovery, which speaks volumes to your OWN commitment to recovery. Just a thought.

Also, H was telling me last night that in hindsight of his PA early in our M, and the fact that he buried it and kept it a secret for years, continuing with that type of behavior and lying along the way...he says that he can see now just how much it kept him from engaging with me and having an emotionally intimate relationship with me. I used to always complain about his "H hugs" where he would hug me but use his thumbs to try and push me away. And how he would never look me in the eye. He says now he thinks he just felt like engaging with me, looking me in the eye, would allow me to see who he truly was and the secrets he was hiding. Part of the protection for him and his secrets was to keep me at arms length. The testament to that is since telling me about his PA, he has never, to my recollection, done an "H hug" and he always looks me in the eye now. There is a huge difference in his interest at engaging me.

My point by all that is, if Kiss still has some secrets, or hasn't been completely O&H with you about his A, still feels like he has some items in 'the vault' as I like to call it, it could possibly be in the way of HIM engaging in recovery and being able to intimately invest in this.

But as we know, I have no answers, just a lot of random thoughts, lol.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 06/19/12 11:25 PM
You bring up some good points, Unwritten!

A WS doesn't earn their "F" until they are willing to do ANYTHING... and maybe they aren't willing to do just anything yet, because they are afraid of having their feet held to the fire on the O&H part.

Mind you, no WS WANTS to tell details. I'm not saying they should be jumping up and down with joy ready to talk about it til the cows come home...but still: there HAS to be a willingness. It's the least they can do - no matter how much shame they suffer momentarily - after what they have put their faithful spouses through.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 06/21/12 02:00 PM
I'm Ok with not knowing the exact BEGINNING of the A. I had asked and he wasn't sure when he started having feelings for her and to me, it doesn't really matter. It really doesn't change things for me. I am already hurt by what was done and how he acted that finding out more when I am trying to heal will not help. Thanks for the thoughts though. That is just how I feel. I know some need to know the down and dirty details but I sure don't!

Things have been going very well lately with the exception of him being here (on the site I mean lol). We had agreed that he would at least read the articles on here and post. We have been quite busy cleaning and such as his parents and sister will be in town tomorrow and spending the week with us. I have mixed feelings about it as I feel they had abondoned me during the Jan-March Plan B time. But for the sake of my kids, I will put on my big girl panties and be a gracious host to them.

I'm falling more in love with kiss every day as we continue to spend lots of UA time together and he continues to meet my EN's.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 06/21/12 02:03 PM
Unwritten - I just re-read your post and I think that what I could do is ask "Is there anything else I should know that you haven't been radically open and honest about?" That should cover any secrets, yes?
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 06/21/12 02:53 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
I'm Ok with not knowing the exact BEGINNING of the A. I had asked and he wasn't sure when he started having feelings for her and to me, it doesn't really matter. It really doesn't change things for me. I am already hurt by what was done and how he acted that finding out more when I am trying to heal will not help. Thanks for the thoughts though. That is just how I feel. I know some need to know the down and dirty details but I sure don't!

Things have been going very well lately with the exception of him being here (on the site I mean lol). We had agreed that he would at least read the articles on here and post. We have been quite busy cleaning and such as his parents and sister will be in town tomorrow and spending the week with us. I have mixed feelings about it as I feel they had abondoned me during the Jan-March Plan B time. But for the sake of my kids, I will put on my big girl panties and be a gracious host to them.

I'm falling more in love with kiss every day as we continue to spend lots of UA time together and he continues to meet my EN's.


Did you make your feelings known to Kiss - about his family visiting? Remember, everything should be POJA'd - and if you didn't want his family staying with you for a week, that should have been negotiated. H and I recently went through this - so I'm just asking. Remember, it's not your job to "suck it up" and go with the flow. In fact, it's not either of your jobs.

My parents came to town for a week and we had them stay at a hotel for part of the time. It was not the easiest thing to deal with - the way my mother is - but my husband came first! Putting your big girl panties on does not sound like this visit is something you enthusiastically agreed to.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 06/21/12 02:59 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Unwritten - I just re-read your post and I think that what I could do is ask "Is there anything else I should know that you haven't been radically open and honest about?" That should cover any secrets, yes?


In my opinion, this is a pretty vague question that leaves plenty of room for him blowing it off. Technically you are correct, but I don't know that it's a question that will bring radical honesty. But... just my opinion.

I, like you, didn't want details. I wanted to know the basics and that was about it. I know myself too well - and I felt that if I had to deal with every little detail that I would not be able to reconcile with my husband. I've wondered at times if I will ever come to regret that decision (to not demand all the details) but so far I haven't, not at all. I think you have to be careful of not wanting to know because you want to stick your head in the sand vs. making an educated decision to not pursue those questions, however.

I also think there are certain things that even though you don't really want to know - you SHOULD know. Otherwise, you will never be able to fully move on as a couple.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 06/21/12 03:02 PM
Yes I know there are lots of BS's that don't WANT any details. By all means do not ask for them then, because they will haunt you. I think its crazy that any of us DO want them, why would the brain want that info??? But I guess I am not the only one. I was just thinking that if there is anything more intentionally deceptive that you didn't ask and he didn't tell, if it could be hindering your recovery. Your question might lead him into details and if you don't want to know that, you might want to clarify, or specifically ask things that you think he may have been deceptive about. Or not at all, if it doesn't bother you, because I certainly don't want to pick YOUR scabs too lol!

Good luck with the inlaws, don't let that stressful sitch put a wrench in your recovery, sounds like things are going well!
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 06/21/12 03:43 PM
Originally Posted By: unwritten
Yes I know there are lots of BS's that don't WANT any details. By all means do not ask for them then, because they will haunt you. I think its crazy that any of us DO want them, why would the brain want that info??? But I guess I am not the only one. I was just thinking that if there is anything more intentionally deceptive that you didn't ask and he didn't tell, if it could be hindering your recovery. Your question might lead him into details and if you don't want to know that, you might want to clarify, or specifically ask things that you think he may have been deceptive about. Or not at all, if it doesn't bother you, because I certainly don't want to pick YOUR scabs too lol!

Good luck with the inlaws, don't let that stressful sitch put a wrench in your recovery, sounds like things are going well!


People usually want them because it helps make sense of what happened. And...sometimes not knowing is worse: the brain can conjure up things that are possibly more horrid than what actually happened. Knowing takes the guessing game out of it. It is what it is - no more/no less. That's why there are basics that HAVE to be told.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 07/03/12 03:06 PM
I know I had said before that I didn't want to know all the details of the A, but it is really starting to bother me that I feel that kiss is still lying to me about when the A began. I KNOW that it was before January but he still denies it. I know that they were in the same car with each other after work on January 18, on January 19th is when I packed his stuff and put him out, and on Jan 20, he is telling her that he is "excited about tomorrow night. Make sure you get plenty of sleep". I think what is bothering me is that he is not being completely open and honest about things from the past and about his present thoughts and feelings.

We have an appt with SH on thursday so we can address it then.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 07/04/12 05:04 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
I know I had said before that I didn't want to know all the details of the A, but it is really starting to bother me that I feel that kiss is still lying to me about when the A began. I KNOW that it was before January but he still denies it. I know that they were in the same car with each other after work on January 18, on January 19th is when I packed his stuff and put him out, and on Jan 20, he is telling her that he is "excited about tomorrow night. Make sure you get plenty of sleep". I think what is bothering me is that he is not being completely open and honest about things from the past and about his present thoughts and feelings.

We have an appt with SH on thursday so we can address it then.



This is definitely concerning. It's one thing to not want to have details and therefore, not discuss them. Totally different if he's lying about them. Glad you have an appt to sort this out!
Posted By: coop24 Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 07/04/12 05:18 PM
I just wanted to say that I have a hard time not knowing everthing that happened (details) of my husbands affair but I have to tell myself what good would it do to know? It would only hurt me that much more. But like you, it bothers me to no end. Please tell me that the pain, thoughts about it, worry,etc will go away with time. I am so worried that if I dont stop blowing up ever so often about the whole thing (the past), he will eventually throw his hands up of the whole recovery. I do good for a few and then I just have to vent. Of course, your spouse IS your best friend so you obviously want to talk to them but they are the ones that made you the way you are being in the first place. SO FRUSTRATING!The cheating spouse doesnt understand how they have backed you in a corner. You can either divorce the person you love the most and see your kids part time or you can deal with it and somehow manage to work thru it. That is why infidelity is so painful. The one you trust, love and respect the most (your best friend) stabs in the back over and over with lies, deceit, and giving their body to someone else is crushing.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 07/04/12 05:39 PM
Coop, you have to stop thinking that knowledge is painful. It's NOT! The pain only comes from the acts/behaviors that the knowledge is about. Even without the knowledge, the suspicion will hurt as much.

Can you start your own thread, please? Expanding on the sentence above will not be of short duration, and my highjacking RQ's thread would be...impolite. There are a host of FBWs here on MB that will happily (wrong word: freely?) give you the attention and support you seem to require.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 07/04/12 11:18 PM
Here's a radio clip about contacting the OW after the affair is over and sending her nastygrams.
Radio clip about contacting OW after affair is over at 5:00 min mark
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 07/05/12 04:02 AM
Thanks, Brain. Not the answer I wanted to hear (grrrr) but one I needed to hear. I had the same situation as the caller. I get triggered by someone who looks like OW. Kiss and I spoke about my feelings towards skank yesterday and he had told me that she had been telling him to go back to his family. I guess I should be thankful for that and that she isn't a vindictive bi+(h but still... grumble
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 07/05/12 04:05 AM
coop, I understand how you feel. It's difficult for the WS to "get" the pain and suffering they caused and contine to caues unless they are actively working towards recovery. Are you and you WS doing that? Please start a new thread so we can get to know you better and help you.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 07/05/12 01:12 PM
Oh goodness I need to listen to that clip from BH. But I don't want to because its going to tell me to 'let go' of my devious plans for revenge.

I know what you mean about people who LOOK like OW. H and I do P90X and we LOVE the workouts, but there is a girl in one of the videos (one of my favorites of course) that reminds me of OW. The good news it makes me work crazy hard because I am spurred by the sight of her (or nearly her). Before anyone tells me to ditch the video, I will say I am DONE giving things up for this ho. I happen to like this video/workout and I am not giving one more thing up for her.

RQ for me the reality is much better than the things my brain constructs on its own. In fact my brain STILL tries to continue to construct things that I know for a fact (poly) didn't really happen. My brain wants me to dwell on this. That little devil thing.

I agree with you that more than knowing the details tho, its knowing that Kiss is willing to give you any info/details that you ask at any time, to help with your recovery. It definitely is a showing of remorse to do so. Have you ever had him write them all down as some people suggest? Have you considered a poly or do you not feel you need one?
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 07/05/12 05:15 PM
unwritten, that is EXACTLY what it will tell you to do. Don't listen!!! LOL, I'm just kidding. But Dr. Harley says that you dont want to give the OW any documentation that may be construed (and used against you) as a threat. A phone call on the other hand.....

For me, I can't say that I can believe what he says the reality is. For example, one evening I had stopped by his condo and had to pick something up of my DS's and I had my DD7 with me. After much knocking, WH finally came to the door. He was disheveled and I noticed skank's pocketbook on the table by the door. Mind you, this was a day or two after him telling me things were over between them and telling me he loved me and missed me and wanted me back (!). Anyway, my mind has played that scene back and imagined what I interrupted many, many times. I finally asked him about it and he said nothing was going on and that she was hiding in the bathroom (riiight, I'm supposed to believe that). So, do I believe him, let it go or demand him to be truthful?

We had a session with SH today and I am so glad that we did. I realize that SH is our (my) best hope to heal from my injury and be able to recover. It will take a lot of the pressure off of me as far as WH's "work" and let me focus on cleaning my side of the street. I plan on making an appointment for next week as well. I honestly feel it is worth every penny and it is nice to have a plan. I do so love to have a plan of action for eveything I do! Unwritten and other BS's out there struggling with recovery would benefit greatly from the coaching center.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 07/05/12 06:25 PM
I'm so glad to hear your session went well. What did SH say about the questions you have regarding O&H about A details? I would say if there is a situation like you described plaguing your mind, you need the answer to it. I would back it up with a poly but you know me I needed that poly.

In the middle of trickle truth we had a session with SH. I will admit I entered that session with venom spewing from my lips, my attitude was so cold and hostile I am sure he could feel it through the phone. I was PO'D to no end. I knew H was still lying. I was downright tired and pxxxed off at being made to feel like the dumb crazy wife at home, all the while H was cheating and lying and doing God knows what with God knows who.

H set the session up. He talked first for a long time, then I got on the phone. The rest of the conversation was something along the lines of why I was too resentful to allow recovery to take place, why I didn't want recovery, why I didn't want to be happy. Um, because this lying cheat is still lying to me, duh. I felt ganged up on, for sure. I was shaking so bad during that call I felt like a rat in a maze and I just wanted to GET OUT, like claustrophobia to the max, can't imagine what I would have done if I was actually sitting in someones office!

So, there's my one and only experience. I know I was in a bad place, and I am in a better place mentally now. Much more willing to 'learn.' But I am a little bitter that there was no mention to H about coming clean, taking a poly, or any of those things. I would have liked to have some focus of that session on H coming clean and being O&H, what TRUE recovery was, not FR where there were still secrets and lies.

One of those things that caused me resentment, its bad enough to lie and cheat but then to do MB and pretend you are committed to R when you are lying to SH and still lying and cheating....KWIM. Like why even initiate recovery work if you still want to live that life. MB and SH at the point was an effort to further manipulate me and keep me in check so he could continue his SL.

So you can see why THIS time around I was a little...apprehensive at his efforts.

We have been doing the at home program this summer and have ditched our MC for now, kindof felt like while we were engrossed in the home program there wasn't a need for another perspective on things. I think I will definitely considering switching to SH if we need to do more this summer.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 07/05/12 07:37 PM
I voiced my concerns about the O&H part, but I don't know what SH said to kiss about it. I do feel that SH is better for us and that we should ditch our current MC who does nothing for us.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 07/05/12 08:15 PM
I had a phone conversation with the OW in my sitch. I didn't call her - she actually called me after I had exposed the affair to her BIL and wife. It was quite surreal. I was calm and classy - but I also set her straight on a few things. To this day I felt I had the perfect conversation with her - but it was only because of God that I was able to have such clarity and composure. I had prayed for the exact words to say if she called. (H had told me she might.)

I won't lie: it felt awfully good to take her down a notch or two without breaking a sweat. But... I'm not sure I would have gone looking to do so if she hadn't called.

In my opinion, she and H both were to blame; it would have been different if she didn't know he was married.

It was mentioned that it might give the OW some sense of satisfaction to seek her out now - and that is a very good point. The time to confront the AP is during exposure.

As for O&H that's a tough one. I can't imagine that SH would be for a spouse not coming clean. However, he probably would want the focus to be on the here and now, not the past. Remember, once the initial disclosure is done it is the job of both spouses to leave the A in the past - which is hard for a BS to do often times. Maybe the situation was being read in such a way that it was thought that's what was happening.

Once my H and I got to the business of doing the MB program full time we did not feel the need to go back to traditional marriage counseling, really. We did a few times afterwards but only so that our MC could help us in a few areas. In fact, it was mainly in the O&H area that we consulted her on, after I'd given her the program books to review. We were so used to not being frank with each other that it helped to have her there to aid in having honest discussions with each other.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 07/05/12 08:31 PM
In my sitch I didn't know about the A's until years later, so there wasn't some grand exposure during the A. If there had been an ongoing A you better believe there would have been a face to face meeting with my POSOW.

I did send OW#1 a letter and like you SunnyD it was classy. I am proud of the fact that I was in control and it wasn't all Jerry Springerish. I think it had more of an impact that way.

You are right about SH wanting to keep it about the here and now and not the past, but when H was still lying to me about so many things how could I have been expected to invest in recovery when I KNEW it was a FR? I agree with not rehashing but I do think that if there are still lies and/or unanswered questions that needs to be addressed FIRST, that is not rehashing because it's never been hashed to begin with.

It seems a lot of times when people want to rehash, it is because they still feel there is deception somewhere.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 07/05/12 08:53 PM
Originally Posted By: unwritten
In my sitch I didn't know about the A's until years later, so there wasn't some grand exposure during the A. If there had been an ongoing A you better believe there would have been a face to face meeting with my POSOW.

I did send OW#1 a letter and like you SunnyD it was classy. I am proud of the fact that I was in control and it wasn't all Jerry Springerish. I think it had more of an impact that way.

You are right about SH wanting to keep it about the here and now and not the past, but when H was still lying to me about so many things how could I have been expected to invest in recovery when I KNEW it was a FR? I agree with not rehashing but I do think that if there are still lies and/or unanswered questions that needs to be addressed FIRST, that is not rehashing because it's never been hashed to begin with.

It seems a lot of times when people want to rehash, it is because they still feel there is deception somewhere.



Good point: if it hasn't been hashed in the first place it can't be rehashed!

Some people instinctively know they still don't have the truth and therefore, want to pursue the topic still. Other times, a BS just can't let go and he or she stays stuck. I would imagine it isn't always easy to tell which is the case.

I also think that there are times FWSs have a hard truly recalling events properly - they were in SUCH a wayward mindset when it all happened. My H swears he never said or did certain things - and I believe he really doesn't remember. BUT...there's a difference between not knowing every detail correctly and purposefully lying about what happened. I know it can be shame or not wanting to cause further hurt that they don't want to share... but it is hard for a BS to dive into recovery with both feet if the offending spouse isn't willing to bare all.

Having said that: the most important ingredient for successful recovery is the willingness of both spouses to commit 100% to the recovery program - not what happened in the past.
Posted By: Letty Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 07/05/12 10:30 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
unwritten, that is EXACTLY what it will tell you to do. Don't listen!!! LOL, I'm just kidding. But Dr. Harley says that you dont want to give the OW any documentation that may be construed (and used against you) as a threat. A phone call on the other hand.....

For me, I can't say that I can believe what he says the reality is. For example, one evening I had stopped by his condo and had to pick something up of my DS's and I had my DD7 with me. After much knocking, WH finally came to the door. He was disheveled and I noticed skank's pocketbook on the table by the door. Mind you, this was a day or two after him telling me things were over between them and telling me he loved me and missed me and wanted me back (!). Anyway, my mind has played that scene back and imagined what I interrupted many, many times. I finally asked him about it and he said nothing was going on and that she was hiding in the bathroom (riiight, I'm supposed to believe that). So, do I believe him, let it go or demand him to be truthful?

We had a session with SH today and I am so glad that we did. I realize that SH is our (my) best hope to heal from my injury and be able to recover. It will take a lot of the pressure off of me as far as WH's "work" and let me focus on cleaning my side of the street. I plan on making an appointment for next week as well. I honestly feel it is worth every penny and it is nice to have a plan. I do so love to have a plan of action for eveything I do! Unwritten and other BS's out there struggling with recovery would benefit greatly from the coaching center.


RQ, why don't you address this with both SH and KISS? you take the phone first, tell SH about this specific sitch, and ask him to have KISS on the phone w/you to help when you say you want the truth from him about this? is this the last thing you need to know? because you really need to put the past behind you. you are paying for SHs time. use it for what you need. you need O&H, and you feel you're not getting it. but make sure this is it, ok? did you do a poly? because that's another way you could get at the truth.

you will always, i'm afraid, wonder about some things. even after i spend days on all my Qs, once i had the answers, other questions popped into my head. but when i thought about them, they weren't really things i needed to know. just little ways to aggravate myself. i put them out of my head and just focus on recovery. however, this specific Q of yours, i think, needs answering. you *know* she was there. you *know* KISS isn't being O&H about this. you need him to be. don't apologize for what you *need* to recover. KISS can't recover with you if he is still hiding things from you, even if he's doing it to not hurt you anymore. once you have the full truth, you *will* be able to recover.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 07/09/12 12:55 AM
Here's an excellent clip on forgiving the OW.
Radio clip on Forgiving the OW
Segment #2

Tell us what you think.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 07/09/12 01:56 AM
BH, thanks for that clip. I'll listen in a minute. We went to church today and again the topic of forgiveness came up. And again, i searched inside myself to see if I have the ability yet to forgive kiss, and I just don't feel it yet. But I continue to pray for that ability. I find it difficult to believe I'll ever forgive her. LOL

Kiss spoke to me a bit last nighht about his talk with SH. He gave me a written NC plan that demonstrates his plan for ensuring NC with skank. SH also spoke to kiss about the trauma involved in regards to his adulterous actions. I told kiss that I never deserved that. No matter what kind of a wife I was or wasn't and what needs I met or didn't, no one deserves that kind of betrayal. Kiss agreed with that and I am glad that unlike his first post here on MB, he gets that.

We'll be speaking to SH again this week. I'm very optimistic about our sessions with him and I am glad that I don't feel that I have to keep kiss accountable. I can step back and let SH and the MB group do that. That is a blessing to me.

~RQ
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 07/09/12 02:23 AM
That's what's so interesting about that clip. Dr. H States that the other person must ask for forgiveness.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 07/09/12 02:28 AM
Very helpful clip, BH, thank you!! It helped me a lot. I also understand the difference between forgiveness and "letting go and moving on". I think I can do the latter with skank. As for Kiss, I can stop beating myself up for not forgiving him when it hasn't been asked for.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 07/09/12 01:43 PM
That was an interesting clip BH.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 07/09/12 01:55 PM
Originally Posted By: unwritten
That was an interesting clip BH.

What did you think?
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 07/09/12 03:36 PM
Honestly, I hope he doesn't ask yet. He still has a way to go in making amends and has yet to speak to my family. Even though numerous people have advised him to do so.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 07/09/12 09:04 PM
Originally Posted By: BrainHurts
Originally Posted By: unwritten
That was an interesting clip BH.

What did you think?


I totally agree with the Harley's. The difference bw forgiveness and 'letting go.' I will hopefully be able to forgive my H once he has given me JC, and I feel a bit of safety again. I will never FORGIVE the nasty OW's that trashed my life and walked away. But hopefully I will be able to let go of the resentment and vengeance, I guess.

So convincing.

That all just seems so far away yet.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 07/10/12 02:09 PM
Originally Posted By: unwritten
I will hopefully be able to forgive my H once he has given me JC, and I feel a bit of safety again. That all just seems so far away yet.



Exactly.

Going to dinner tonight for my dad's birthday. I'm sad that kiss will not be able to join us as he has still not patched that issue. My father would be quite upset to seem my WH there. Oh well, nothing I can do about that
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 07/11/12 10:14 PM
Been having a funky day today. Feeling hypersensitive about thingsaid, done, not done, etc. After my IC thi afternoon, I realized things were triggering me and I wasn't aware they were triggers. But I did complain to kiss about what was bothered me (finances and such) and I am glad I did. In the past, I would be it inside and be bitter and po'd about it. Now we are in a place where we can ha e a productive conversation about it.

Headed to nyc soon to see kiss's idol, ace, and get in some good UA time
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 07/11/12 10:16 PM
I apologize for the typos, using my Droid and it won't let me fix them
shocked
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 07/11/12 10:36 PM
Excellent radio clip on this very issue.
Radio clip on how to get over my Husband's Affair
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 07/12/12 01:44 PM
Yeah 2 years. That sucks. Sometimes I wish I had a sound proof rubber room so that when the thoughts/visions invade my mind, I can put myself in there and pound the walls and scream my broken heart out.

I don't know if I can 2 years of that. But what choice do we have?
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 07/12/12 01:58 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Yeah 2 years. That sucks. Sometimes I wish I had a sound proof rubber room so that when the thoughts/visions invade my mind, I can put myself in there and pound the walls and scream my broken heart out.

I don't know if I can 2 years of that. But what choice do we have?


I understand completely. It's important to keep the long term goal in mind. Sometimes I try and envision the future when the past enters my mind. I'll think of H walking DD down the aisle, for instance, or at one of the kid's college graduations... anything that reminds me of why and how the hard work is going to pay off even bigger and better in the future. This recovery business isn't just for us: it's for our kids, grandkids, and on down the line too!

It really is crucial that you keep your mind as busy as possible during down moments. Of course, sometimes those moments serve a purpose: to motivate us to keep to a high standard for our recovery!
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Trying to Heal to work on Recovery - 07/12/12 06:36 PM
Thanks SunnyD, I will try that!
Posted By: Everthesame A questionable act - 07/13/12 02:51 PM
I need some input on this. I just saw that kiss spoke to someone from his former workplace (where skank works) yesterday for 10 minutes. Now he did not tell me about this. It could have been anybody and there be a completely legitimate reason (he still works for the company) and still has many friends there. He could have spoken to skank.

How would you other recovering BS's handle this? Any former waywards feel that I shouldn't read too much into this?

I am not angry about it, but this shows a breach in transparency. I shouldn't have to find out from other resources.

I have not asked him about it as I know that I have trouble believing anything he says anyway. It's actions I feel secure in.

What say you?
Posted By: Northwood8900 Re: A questionable act - 07/13/12 03:32 PM
Oops, wrong thread.
Posted By: Northwood8900 Re: A questionable act - 07/13/12 03:36 PM
Oops, wrong thread.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: A questionable act - 07/13/12 03:39 PM
It may be just a trigger. Seeing that number come up.

Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: A questionable act - 07/13/12 04:39 PM
You should ask him about it immediately. Normally you don't bring up triggers specifically, but in the case of possible contact, it needs to be addressed.

You don't need to accuse him - you just need to state that you need to feel secure in this relationship, so you would like to know who he spoke with. And of course, O&H is extremely important, so he needs to give you an honest answer.

I don't think you should read too much into it, but at the same time, he needs to be clear on the fact that any time he speaks to someone from that #, he needs to tell you. I would even go so far as to say that he not take calls from that # and should block it. Friends or associates can use their cellphones to call him if needed.

There needs to be NO open doors or windows for contact!
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: A questionable act - 07/13/12 05:10 PM
Sorry for the t/j.

RQ did you see movingonward's response about the IM to you?
Posted By: Everthesame Re: A questionable act - 07/13/12 06:37 PM
Sunny- thanks. I'll speak to him about it. It's one of those things where I feel I shouldn't have to be specific about it and he should know it was wrong but he is not gonna think it was wrong because I wasn't specific. KWIM? crazy

Brain- I was just about to mosey over there. Thanks
Posted By: unwritten Re: A questionable act - 07/13/12 07:15 PM
Ask him about it. Perhaps it was a different random person and he didn't even think about the connection, the person who was wayward doesn't necessarily think of everything in the same way the BS does KWIM. I think it is very important that you bring it up, and I also think his response is important. If he is upset that he unknowingly did something to make you feel uncomfortable you will know, but if he is instead upset about getting caught doing something he shouldn't have you will also know.

Occasionally something comes up where I get a tinge of suspect with H. Not regarding an OW, as much as just a number that I don't know, him talking on his phone and going into another room, etc. Sometimes I do not say something until later, and whenever I do he is adamant that I should immediately question him on things so he can show me who he was talking to or in any other way make me comfortable with it, and that I should never just choose to not say anything to him about it. In other words, he wants the opportunity any time that occurs to make me feel safe. So give Kiss that opportunity.
Posted By: unwritten Re: A questionable act - 07/13/12 07:18 PM
And thats great that you have offered to be an IM. I have thought about it, maybe down the road when I am further in R and have absorbed more of the good Dr's principles, seen more IM action online, etc. I have never used an IM/done the Plan B thing so I feel like it is out of my element, but being a fellow BS and MBer I guess that makes me as qualified as your average friend or family member.

Pay it forward like you said.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: A questionable act - 07/13/12 07:41 PM
Originally Posted By: unwritten
, the person who was wayward doesn't necessarily think of everything in the same way the BS does KWIM.


That is what I was thinking. But I also didn't want to ignore it either. If it bothers me, then I should tell him and give him that opportunity. I can't control what he says or does, only how I react to it.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: A questionable act - 07/13/12 07:42 PM
PS. I have wanted to be an IM but never felt qualified enough. I think we all feel the same way. But experience is a valuable educator! And besides, they have no children so that should be easier for a novice like me smile
Posted By: Everthesame Re: A questionable act - 07/15/12 02:55 AM
So, I asked him about the phone call and if you have read his post you know what his answer was. I didn't believe him. But, I knew that I wouldn't.

I agree with those who posted to him. That he should have been forthcoming about the phone call before it was madeand had done it in my presence and at the very least, tell me about it shortly after. To me, this was a break in NC. Even if he did talk to someone else, he could have still received info about skank. Now that he has been schooled by my wise MB friends (thank you!) it hopefully won't happen again.

He still needs to learn about the Rules of care and Protection. And I think he would learn a lot from other threads. But he has come a long way and is trying hard to earn that "F". Who knows, maybe one day he will pay it forward and help other WH's

PS I had asked him to read his thread from beginning to end and tell me what he thought. He read the first post and recognized a lot of things that were foggy. I'm anxious to hear what he has to say about the rest.
Posted By: unwritten Re: A questionable act - 07/15/12 05:54 AM
What is it about his response that you did not believe? Do you believe he was actually calling there to speak with the POSOW? (I had to throw that POS in there cuz, ya know.) Or do you think he really was calling for someone else but may have asked about skanky? Did you ask him this, if he got any 'updates' about skanky?
Posted By: Everthesame Re: A questionable act - 07/15/12 02:18 PM
Originally Posted By: unwritten
What is it about his response that you did not believe?


It seemed contrived. But like I said. I have trouble believing anything!
Originally Posted By: unwritten
Do you believe he was actually calling there to speak with the POSOW? (I had to throw that POS in there cuz, ya know.)

No, he has told me many times that he will not screw this up. I have to believe him on that. He knows any contact without telling me and he would be OUT

Originally Posted By: unwritten
Or do you think he really was calling for someone else but may have asked about skanky?


I believe he did call for someone else

Originally Posted By: unwritten
Did you ask him this, if he got any 'updates' about skanky?


I should have asked him if he heard anything about skank. That is what I m worried. Someone passing info along him to him and making him have feelings (feeling sorry) about her.

We are moving on for now. But I'll be on high alert.
Thanks unwritten
Posted By: Everthesame Re: A questionable act - 07/18/12 06:27 PM
Just got an e-mail from Joyce that my e-mai was on the radio program today. I had asked about kiss not educating himself about MB principles and posting. I'll have a listen in a bit. It sounded like they were confused about my question.

In the meantime, I have noticed that our UA time lately has been lacking.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: A questionable act - 07/18/12 06:32 PM
Hmmm....maybe the lacking UA time also contributed to your not believing him about the phone call. If your love bank was not high enough it would make sense that his explanation would not be as palatable. Not that you wouldn't have triggered over the call if UA time had been adequate, but it's possible the explanation would have gone over better with you. (Or maybe I'm totally off base and the lack of UA time has been AFTER the phone call incident.)

Will be interesting to hear what the answer was to the radio question.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: A questionable act - 07/18/12 07:03 PM
Honestly, I feel our UA has always fallen way short of 20 hours. (Someone broke it down to 5 4-hours dates!) But we are spending a lot more time than we used to. It's hard with his work hours.

The last time we spent alone time together for more than an hour was a week ago when we went to NYC. I need more than that. Especially as I am feeling on the low point of this roller coaster right now.
Posted By: unwritten Re: A questionable act - 07/18/12 09:13 PM
My H created some kind of program to keep track of our UA time, I think he has it on his iphone. So we can easily keep track of our 'plan' vs our 'reality' as it is occurring (and get credit for those 20 mins we happen to steal away on the deck for IC and margaritas, or whatever).
Posted By: unwritten Re: A questionable act - 07/18/12 09:19 PM
Ya I'm not sure how one would pull of 5 4 hour dates. First off, I pay our babysitter $6/hr and even though we do quite well, I don't think I could afford that! Although since our babysitter is our daughter and we make her save some for college, it is kindof a win win for us. But I don't think I could coerce her into babysitting that much anyway...

We plan half hour here, 20 mins there, in whatever way we can. That might be, like I said, 20 mins on the deck having a drink when he gets home, or a 30 min walk, or locking ourselves in the bedroom to talk uninterrupted for a few minutes. Etc. Not the best plan, I would LOVE the 5 dates! But it works for us right now. As the kids get older life gets easier that way, I hope.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: A questionable act - 07/19/12 02:20 AM
unwritten, that is pretty much what we do. A little bit here and a little bit there. One date night a week is what we try to do and we usually can pull it off.

My kids are young too so I'm sure it will get easier as they get older.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: A questionable act - 07/19/12 04:00 PM
I listened to the show and realized why they were confused. I asked what to do when a WS isn't on board with MB pronciples, and doesn't read the books, articles, forums or knows what the heck PORH is. They read it the other way around. LOL

I emailed Joyce back because she had asked for clarification so we'll see if the topic is re-addressed again.
Posted By: unwritten Re: A questionable act - 07/19/12 10:06 PM
Ya thats a rather big difference!

If you are following the discussion on my thread regarding need meeting at all, it ends with me having a bad day.

I thought we were doing really well! Now I feel like we are just doing everything wrong and it will all implode on itself sooner or later.

The whole need meeting/POJA thing is a concept that I clearly do not 'get' yet.

One of those days when I feel like this is too hard. Kinda just want to go do some IB and be alone for awhile. But its date night, so I can't. Probably a good thing.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: A questionable act - 07/19/12 10:11 PM
I'm on that bend of the roller coaster myself. I did another EN questionnaire and will have kiss do one as well. I've been feeling...ignored. I guess you could say.

I thought you were doing well, too. I'll read the latest on your thread.
Posted By: unwritten Re: A questionable act - 07/19/12 10:14 PM
Oh its kinda long. I have that way about me.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: A questionable act - 07/19/12 11:48 PM
Yes, it definitely grew since I read it last.....oh 6 hours ago! Lol
Posted By: Everthesame Re: A questionable act - 07/20/12 03:25 PM
Having a rough week. Emotions are all over the place and I bounce from depression to anger. Feel like I am settling when I want more. kiss has noticed i've been off this week and I told himy feelings. It gets worse when he doesn't work on our recovery.

Just want to to say that if I posted on your thread and seemed a bit snippy, I apologize.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: A questionable act - 07/20/12 11:11 PM
I have like 2 seconds here....busy couple of days for me. But, I just wanted to reassure you, RQ, that it is perfectly normal to have ups and downs during all of this. Just because you're on a downturn this week doesn't mean that recovery is going badly. Stick to the plan and you'll be fine.

Something I had to remind myself of that I try and remind others of as well is that it is still a process that you must go through, not around. The depression and anger is part of that - as is the feeling that you want more. Make sure you are being specific when you tell Kiss what your needs are - and no matter what - don't bring the past into the present. It WILL get better.
The biggest mistake we make at times is expecting the other person to step up their game but not telling them exactly how. We make ourselves crazy if we're just expecting them to jump through hoops without even knowing where there are.

Remember to think very specifically about what needs you are needing met and how Kiss can meet them. Don't fall into the trap of, "if he really loved me, I shouldn't have to tell him to do X, Y, or Z...." It doesn't work that way.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: A questionable act - 07/21/12 01:31 AM
Sunnyd, thanks for your time! I do notice that we will do well right after a coaching session when kiss is really working on our recovery and then that slacks off and I start to feel depressed and angry about everything. But he does know what he needs to do (in fact he has it n writing) but just doesn't seem to care enough to do it. I question if that is the marriage that I want. I want/deserve someone who cares enough about it that I do.

The saying "not marriage at all costs" is ringing through my head.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: A questionable act - 07/21/12 09:12 PM
Well, you're right: he does need to work the program - and if he already has proper "instructions," he needs to follow through.

I think part of the problem comes from your having more motivation to change things. You've been through the trauma of betrayal that Kiss has not. I've found the same thing with my marriage here and there throughout recovery too: I have to push for things more because my H is just happy to have his family back, etc... so life is really good if you ask him! He didn't have to endure the pain that I did - as Kiss did not have to with you either.

There are times when I'm pushing for us to be better and he is willing, but he's not the one doing the pushing because he's happy and content. I, on the other hand, have to deal with triggers and PTSD, as do you. It isn't that my H doesn't care whether or not our marriage is good - it's that he thinks it really is! So, during the moments where I've had to be the one to ask for more effort, I've always tried to make sure H knows it benefits us both - not just me. I remind him that our marriage HAS to be better than ever - that change IS necessary; otherwise we will end up even worse off that the conditions that led to the A.

If you've explained all this to Kiss and he still isn't doing the work - you guys need to get to the bottom of it. Is he just being lazy? Does he not see change as necessary? Is he being self-centered and just viewing things from the perspective that HE is happy so you should be too?

Get to the root of the cause as to why he's not keeping up his end of the bargain and then you'll know better where things stand.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: A questionable act - 07/21/12 11:19 PM
Actually, what you said absolutely makes sense! I think it's what you said that to him things seem really great and that he is happy to have his wife and family back. He always tell me how lucky he is. But I still deal with all the triggers and emotions so I get stuck when it doesn't seem like he is putting in any recovery effort.

This is what I had asked him to do that he hasn't:
Post to the forum on a regular basis for accountability
Continue coaching with SH
Read the books and articles
Schedule UA time
Make amends to family

The fact that he hasn't done these and he knows that they are all very important to me is what bothers me.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: A questionable act - 07/23/12 01:43 PM
I've spent quite a bit of time reflecting on things this weekend. And I'll admit, it has been a rough weekend emotionally for me. I think I have done a lot as far as cleaning up my side of the street. All the things that kiss complained about, I have changed. I went to "crazy" lengths to "win" my husband back. I have read books and forums and sought advice about fixing my marriage. I have continued with my IC to help me with my personal recovery. I have sacrificed the close relationship with my family because of him. And yet I do not see the same effort put in my him. Why am I trying so hard to fix something he broke?
I'm also not sure that I will EVER be able to get past all the things that he did. It just hurts too much and I still cry on a daily basis over it. I can't help but think that I might have to finally admit defeat. I have tried so hard and I just don't know if I can keep doing it anymore.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: A questionable act - 07/23/12 02:04 PM
A wise poster said this.
When to Call It Quits - Part 1
In addition to this excellent article here are some excellent radio clips on this.

Please listen to these radio clips on what are the reasons for divorce.

Radio clip at 5:45 When to call it quits
Segment #2
Posted By: unwritten Re: A questionable act - 07/23/12 02:37 PM
HUGS RQ.

Oh gosh, what can I say. I've been on this very brink myself more times than I can count. I won't pretend to have any answers. It is so easy giving advice, everything is so cut and dry. But when you are dealing with a real live human spouse who is not doing everything 'by the book,' it is so much more complicated. Maybe it doesn't have to be, but it is.

Thinking of you RQ. If you want to keep plugging along, we will be here for support. If you are truly ready to move on, we will also be here for support.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: A questionable act - 07/23/12 03:19 PM
Thanks guys, I know I have a lot of thinking to do but I feel I have been trying to get him to be enthusiastic about things for months now and I just don't see it. I had thought about signing up for the on-line program but worry that would be money down the drain being as he doesn't want to do it. He doesn't bother with any of the free stuff or even re-reading things I have given him so why waste the money? right?

Brain
Posted By: Everthesame Re: A questionable act - 07/23/12 08:11 PM
Brain- I listened to the radio clip. Thanks. In fact, Dr Harley himself told me that I had every right to call it quits if that is what I chose to do.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: A questionable act - 07/23/12 10:13 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Brain- I listened to the radio clip. Thanks. In fact, Dr Harley himself told me that I had every right to call it quits if that is what I chose to do.

Exactly, my friend.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: A questionable act - 07/23/12 10:25 PM
Btw, good morning wink
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: A questionable act - 07/26/12 06:23 PM
RQ - sorry you have been having a rough time of it lately. I've been gone for a few days but since you haven't posted further, I assume you are still in the same mindset.

I can tell you that recovery does take TIME. But - time with EFFORT is essential.

I think part of the problem here stems from the fact that you were never tough with kiss on the whole plan B deal. He's "learned" that he can get by with the minimum effort.

Something you need to ask yourself is, is kiss still a renter or freeloader - or has he truly become a buyer in your marriage? If he is a buyer, he should be willing to do the work. What you've asked of him - posting, making amends, reading the books, etc... is not anything out of line. I personally never made it a condition for my H to post, but that is because I knew he was doing the other work; not posting didn't bother me.

When I read everything you're saying, what I get is that you do not feel that kiss has truly owned his actions and taken responsibility for them; he doesn't really get how devastating his actions were. If he did, he would be jumping up and done to make restitution. If that's the case, have you told him this point blank? Did you let him know at the beginning of recovery how hurt you were and what it did to you, or did you skate over all of that?

There's always mistakes when you don't "go through" it all and try to step around these issues in recovery.

If you did go through all of that, then what are kiss' reasons for not giving you just compensation? He needs to understand that you will never heal without it.
Posted By: unwritten Re: A questionable act - 07/26/12 08:08 PM
RQ what's going on lady? I'm a little worried about you, sounds like you have been at a LOW and just wondering how you're doing.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: A questionable act - 07/27/12 12:03 AM
SunnyD- Your advice always means so much to me and you are right about my Plan b. I know I could have done better but it's too late for regrets now.

Originally Posted By: SunnyDinTX
Something you need to ask yourself is, is kiss still a renter or freeloader - or has he truly become a buyer in your marriage? If he is a buyer, he should be willing to do the work. What you've asked of him - posting, making amends, reading the books, etc... is not anything out of line. I personally never made it a condition for my H to post, but that is because I knew he was doing the other work; not posting didn't bother me.

When I read everything you're saying, what I get is that you do not feel that kiss has truly owned his actions and taken responsibility for them; he doesn't really get how devastating his actions were. If he did, he would be jumping up and done to make restitution. If that's the case, have you told him this point blank? Did you let him know at the beginning of recovery how hurt you were and what it did to you, or did you skate over all of that?


That is in a nutshell. I don't understand the why of it. I think that is something kiss needs to ask himself. But he does know how hurt I was and still am (he has also gone over this with SHarley) And I did speak to him a few days ago about how I do not feel like he is putting in that much of an effort. And you know what, it was the same stuff I told him in a letter 3 months ago!

I feel like I am done trying. My IC says that I needed to go through this process (from beginning to end)to know that I gave it my all and to now just watch and see. I'll know when I am ready.

Unwritten - thanks for checking in on me. I have been having a rough time. Depressed and panicky lately. Don't know how much longer I can keep going in this rut.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: A questionable act - 07/27/12 04:21 AM
Yes, you're right - it's too late for regrets now about the Plan B and I am not trying to club you over the head with that fact. I mention it because I think it helps explain why he isn't feeling the full force of needing to follow the exact steps you have currently laid out for recovery. He's gotten away with less in the past.

You are right to have doubts about the future if he is still acting like a renter or freeloader. It is imperative for true recovery that you have a better marriage than ever before. If that is not true at the 2 year mark of beginning the MB program, it is dangerous territory indeed.

It DOES take a good 2 years to truly recover (WITH EFFORT) from this - no doubt about it. It actually takes longer if both parties are not fully participating.

So, to that end, I am assuming that you, personally, have been following the program and the principles up until now? I'm not saying that kiss' efforts shouldn't exceed or at least match yours - but I can definitely see more effort with my H when I am making it part of conversation and carrying out actions accordingly. I've never minded being the one to lead in this regard - as long as he willingly does his part. I know some BS's feel the WS should be leading. I don't think Dr. H ever says that a WS must lead the efforts but I do understand the feeling that a WS is the one that must make just compensation and show eagerness to heal, etc... It's just that from my perspective, I had been the one doing all the research for months and I was the "sane" one throughout it all. There was no way I wanted someone who had been wayward for a year or so to be "leading" our recovery. (Although, I concede that this depends on one's definition of leading.)

Having said all that, it sounds to me like you have done that. (I only bring this up because you stated you feel like giving up.) You've given him your list of what just compensation looks like to you. Now you have to ask yourself if he is doing some but not enough, or just outright refusing to do it, or is he procrastinating?

To clarify, have you told SH that kiss is not working the program and that's what prompted him to say you have every right to end the marriage if that is the case? Or, is your statement of SH saying you have that right due to the principle that every BS has the right to leave the marriage after infidelity? I am curious as to what the specific advice would be, knowing that the WS is not actively working the program.

Also, how versed is your IC on MB principles?

If I were in your shoes, I would do the following:

I would let kiss know that you cannot recover in a marriage where you have been betrayed and he is not willing to give you just compensation for that. I would specify every way in which you have cleaned up your side of the street. I would then say that it is unacceptable to you that he has not done X, Y, and Z - especially when you have asked for this several times over. How can you possibly feel secure in this marriage when he is refusing to make amends that are reasonable? I would then give him a deadline to complete X, Y, and Z. I would not fight with him about why he isn't willing - because honestly, that's just too dang bad. If he hadn't cheated, he wouldn't be asked to do these things.

No one is saying he has to become best friends with your family or become the #1 poster on these forums.... but, it IS his job to do whatever it takes to make you feel safe and cared for - and to know that he is, indeed, a buyer.

Sometimes people need a deadline to push them towards action. I really think he might be one of those. However, you HAVE to have an exact plan of action AND FOLLOW THROUGH if he does not meet that deadline. You can't be scared of the consequences. You are miserable right now; I assume you don't want to live in misery the rest of your life. If kiss continues to not make you feel safe - how long can you "see this process through" as your IC is suggesting? That's enough to send anyone to the looney bin!!! If I recall, you already had one health scare due to all this. You need to be healthy for yourself and for your kids. I would hate for you to watch and see for too long and end up a shell of a person because you couldn't find the strength to enforce some tough love.

We all sat here and encouraged you to let kiss move home - under the assumption he was working the program and cleaning up his side of the street. If that's not the case, he doesn't deserve to be home.

Without more details it is hard to fully assess the situation. Is he meeting your needs at all? Why is he no longer reading the material, etc... Does he feel like he already has a good grasp on the concepts and is employing them?

I'm trying to get a grasp here on where you both are mentally. I know full well how it can be in the middle of recovery and have doom and gloom slam you - or anger. I went through those times feeling like no efforts would ever be good enough to make me get over what my H had done. Remember, recovery or no recovery, you still go through the stages of grief which include both depression and anger. In the moments of those emotions it really is hard to tell if it's just "normal" stuff you are enduring or if your H is failing to step up to the plate.

If you can look at your situation and know beyond a shadow of a doubt that your H is not working the program in any real, measurable way, it's time for some tough love. Your health depends on it. I would ask for him to prove he means business soon - with a deadline - or go to a real plan B. I would not sit on my hands and do nothing while your mental and physical health decline...







Posted By: Everthesame Re: A questionable act - 07/28/12 10:52 PM
Sunny, as always thank you for the time you give me to post such thought-provoking posts. I also went over some of my feelings with my IC (who is not versed in MB principles, per se, but when I explain them to her she understands them- she's really great!). After talking to her and reading your post, this is what I think. That kiss still does not "get it" and doesn't want to. There has really been no soul searching on his part as to the "why" the A happened, no acceptance of "what" and no reflection on the "how". And I think that is the crux of the matter. He only met briefly with an IC, spoke to SH twice, has had very little dealings with the forum and still lacks any accountability. With very little self-reflection on his part, I think that it is why he doesn't understand the just compensation part. Or understand the rightness of making amends. In some ways, I think he is still foggy and un-remorseful. I think some kind counseling for him alone would help him tremendously. But who can afford Steve Harley on a weekly basis? And I didn't feel that the IC/MC we were seeing was really addressing the A. And I don't see kiss really caring anyway.
The needs meeting is getting better, the POJA a little more difficult and the RH needs working on and so does the UA. He has really stepped up on those things the last few days. And I have read "Recovery after an Affair" numerous times and we are following that program but I find that it is not enough to fix this.
At this time, I have given him a deadline. But I think if a WS doesn't get it, then a deadline will not make it happen. Do I want to be with someone who never will? That is the big question. This is part of the e-mail I had received from Dr Bill Harley
" The issue you should address is whether or not your husband is actually doing what we recommend: Eps, POJA, PORH, and POUA. The goal is for your marriage to recover and by doing these things, that will happen. "

So where does this leave me?
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: A questionable act - 07/29/12 01:54 AM
Quote:
So where does this leave me?
That leaves you with a decision. He has obviously decided that you will accept him as is. DO YOU? YOU may have to take the next step of ending the marriage. Are you willing to do that?
Posted By: Everthesame Re: A questionable act - 07/29/12 03:31 AM
Well, just had a conversation with him about my thoughts in my above post. Kiss says that he feels like smelly brown poop for what he did, but that there is no way to take it back. That we are 2 different people whereas I like to dwell on stuff and he deals with it and moves on. Do you think I shouldn't be dwelling in it? "I didn't say that" he says. He also alluded to that instead of letting it heal, that it keeps getting picked at. Is that what I am doing? "I didn't say that" he says. So what is your suggestion I asked. To figure out how to heal you so can move past this he says.
OH really?

So there you have it. I'm the one who has to go to counseling, talk to people on forums, take anti-depressants and anti-anxiety meds, read books, and what have you to deal with this brokenness of what he did to me. And he deals with it and moves on.

So, MB, to answer your question, NO, I don't accept that and YES, I am willing to end it. Can you tell I'm a little angry?
Posted By: LongWayFromHome Re: A questionable act - 07/29/12 02:20 PM
The way you can "move on" from the adultery, as kiss put it, is to have Just Compensation. Your H will need to deposit massive amounts of love units and avoid all love busters, while making the marriage safe. That's the only way to "move past" adultery.

Is he saying he is unable/unwilling to do this? He will not meet your ENs? He will not avoid LBs?

He doesn't understand that he is missing out on the opportunity of his lifetime--to have a really great, healed marriage.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: A questionable act - 07/29/12 02:44 PM
Longway, he is meeting the en's to a certain extent. That part is getting better. He is not lb'ing. I guess I'm the one who is doing that by demanding more.

So, is the problem me?
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: A questionable act - 07/29/12 03:08 PM
RQ,

He's right, you know. His transgression can never be erased. No answer to how or why will do that. No amount of "getting it" will make it be forgotten.

But, I would suggest that you respectfully inform him that you cannot just choose to "get over" or "move past" this.

The only way is through.

And he can go through it by your side. He SHOULD be by your side.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: A questionable act - 07/29/12 03:30 PM
HHH, I know he's right. He knows that I am trying. Guess I still have a ton of work to do on myself. I don't know if I can do that with him by my side, though.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: A questionable act - 07/29/12 06:00 PM
He still doesn't get it, you're right. You NEED the just compensation to "move on" and he just wants you to forget about the past and move on. It doesn't happen that way.

It's true that us BSs have work to do in all the recovery efforts as well. I know I did and still do. However, what I see as the missing piece here is that kiss is not taking responsibility for his actions. "Feeling bad" about them is not good enough! So he feels like poo - that's great. What's he doing to make amends? You've told him exactly what he can do (just compensation) and he is not doing that. So, the big message he is sending to you is, "I want to do what's easy rather than what's right." AND/OR... "I still care more about myself than I do about the state of my marriage and family."

Given those messages, I certainly understand why you can't just move on. And let me tell ya... just stuffing it and not dealing with it - not having a better marriage - is NOT recovery, RQ. It will leave you vulnerable. I've seen it IRL as well as on the forums.

HHH is right - you have to go through and Kiss is trying to go around.

The other posters are right too. You've gotten some great advice here.

You will never feel safe in your marriage if you do not get just compensation and make your marriage better than ever. While it's true that doing all the things MB recommends - meeting needs, avoiding LBs, putting in the UA time - will make your marriage better, you are still missing the just compensation component.

Personally, my take on it is that as long as kiss is not willing to put forth the effort on just compensation, he is not putting EPs in place. Furthermore, he is NOT demonstrating he is a buyer in this relationship. No wonder you are frustrated.

Having said all that, I stand by some of my thoughts I had at the beginning of recovery for H and I. I knew that I could not stand, whip in hand, ready to smack him every time I felt upset or angry about the A. I knew there was nothing he could do to change the past. Therefore, while it was very tough - I had to hold my tongue and not lash out, not bring up the past, not try to "make him pay" or any of that. I had to meet his need for admiration along with other needs... and it was difficult at first. After all, he had to earn some of that respect/admiration first. But...I was able to do so BECAUSE I witnessed his willingness to take responsibility and to do whatever I needed him to do. And yes, I analyzed whether or not what I required of him was reasonable.

I can also point out that my H didn't always say the great and wonderful things that I wanted him to say. (This is documented on my recovery thread.) I had these thoughts in my head that if only H would act a certain way or say certain things, I would heal much faster. If he got down on his knees and cried, for instance, about how I never deserved any of what he did.... Or, if he talked about wanting to give me the moon and stars to make up for it.... that somehow, I would be moved to forgive him and just get over it. That didn't happen. It wouldn't have been honest or genuine if it had, because that's not my H's style; never has been. I had to reconcile my notions with the fact that I wanted REAL recovery. That meant that H's actions, not his words, would be the "proof" of his remorse that I needed.

In my case, the consistency of H's willingness to face obstacles got me over the hump of my anger and hurt. It also got me over the need to hear the grandiose statements I felt I wanted from him. Words ring hallow while actions shore up the holes.

I can't help but wonder why it is that kiss will go so far with his actions, but not take them all the way. That's the real dilemma here. It's why you are stuck. I would be too. If he had jumped through every hoop you'd asked of him, I would tell you to just hang in there - true recovery takes time. But that's not the case. If your "hoops" were unreasonable, I would tell you to reconsider those hoops. They don't seem to be so - at least not to anyone here.

Of course, if you choose you can change the scope of those hoops. I know I did a few times throughout the process... like needing to hear certain things from my H. I was able to think about what it was I needed and why - and how he could offer me just compensation in another way. For instance, with the family: I never asked him to call my brother and sister in law specifically. Yet, when my brother came to visit, I expected him to be a certain way. And you know what? he was - without me even asking. In fact, he surpassed my expectations on this. (Long story - I won't go into details.) Although, I will add that I never asked him to call them because there wasn't the direct issues that have occurred with Kiss and your family members.

SO - for example - if you wanted to change your hoop to ask kiss to write a letter instead of phoning them - that might be a little easier and still offer just compensation. Of course, you may have already put this on the table, I don't know: I'm just giving a specific example of how there could be some POJA applied.

I guess what it boils down to, in my opinion, is you need just compensation. He can examine it in any way he likes, but it boils down to you needing it to move on. If he has better suggestions of how to give you that - then lets hear them!

I feel like I am talking in circles here... it's just so frustrating! I can only imagine how it must be for you.

But anyway....GOOD JOB on the deadline issuing!
Posted By: Littlebit3 Re: A questionable act - 07/29/12 07:09 PM
WOW, SunnyDinTx, that was a wonderful post above. Thank you for sharing your story and thoughts soooooo openly. It really helps to hear it from this perspective. Thank you !!!!!!
Posted By: Littlebit3 Re: A questionable act - 07/29/12 07:18 PM
Hello Rocketqueen. I too wonder why your H isn't makeing wrong his rights. Why he is not so remorseful that you see his remorse in his actions. Normally, when people are remorseful, they kill themselves to make up for the wrong they have done to someone. I KNOW when someone is sorry and when someone isn't really sorry. My H is "sorry" the he made these choices, but he is not sorry that he actually did it, or sorry that he hurt me so deeply. I don't know where your H falls in this. Is he the kind of person has issues with empathyzing with others? It does seem that he doesn't REALLY get how much he has hurt you. I think it would have to be he just really doesn't get it or he doesn't care enough to do whatever it takes to make it better for you. You sound so strong and capable. Thank you for sharing your story. Just hearing your words is so helpful.
Posted By: LongWayFromHome Re: A questionable act - 07/30/12 01:25 AM
Would your H be willing to sign up and go through the Online Program? It's very specific and you get coaching and guidance all the way through. You had mentioned not wanting to throw more money away, but if your H is willing, this very specific program could help turn your marriage around.

It's worth the money to get the accountability and the help. There is a seminar to watch and an audio set of the entire MB program. We watched the seminar together and listened to the CDs in the car, so we had ongoing MB education. We also currently listen to the radio segments by computer.

My H never talks about the A. He said he wanted to put it behind him, not to sweep it under the rug, but because he is so embarrassed and horrified at what he did that he doesn't want it in his mind. I can get that. I still think about it every day, at some point, but I don't bring it up anymore.

Your H will show his remorse by meeting your needs and avoiding love busters, as well as by following EPs. The Five Steps workbook has very detailed questionnaires that specify exactly how each wants ENs met.

For example, for affection, I specified to my FWH that I would love for him to tell me "I'm in love with you" and cuddle and kiss me every single morning before we get out of bed. Sometimes I'm still half-asleep when he plants a little kiss on my lips or forehead, but he never fails to remember to that one little thing.

Most men want very specific instruction on what is needed. Dr. Harley even had one man follow a detailed list prepared by the man's wife. He had to check each item off as it was done. After some time, these actions became a habit and the man no longer needed the list.
Posted By: Littlebit3 Re: A questionable act - 07/30/12 02:20 AM
RQ, I meant to say "right his wrongs" About an hour after I posted, I wanted to edit, but the option was already gone.
Posted By: unwritten Re: A questionable act - 07/30/12 01:54 PM
RQ, I am very sorry that Kiss has not stepped up yet. I feel for you because I know exactly where you are.

It is VERY frustrating when words do not equal actions. Kiss is saying the right words, but his general ho hum attitude about recovery is not indicating that he really understands the pain he caused you and is willing to pull out all the stops to get recovery. Right?

I don't think everyone needs that, a WS who is proactively willing to 'fight for you' by doing whatever they can to win back your heart and put the train back on its track. Obviously recovery requires a spouse willing to do the work, but it isn't necessarily about the willingness, as much as the proactive desire to step outside their box, step into the uncomfortable zone, and proactively and aggressively fight for you and your marriage. My H spent well over a YEAR after DDay saying 'I will do whatever you want for me' and truly, if I had come to him with a 'you need to read chapter 3 of SAA' and stayed on him about it, he would have done it. Is that willingness to do the work? Sure. I needed MORE. I needed HIM to come to ME and say, 'tonight we are doing chapter 3 of SAA, together' (or whatever). I needed HIM to drive recovery, demand we schedule UA time, demand we work on our assignments, etc. I was the one who was 'willing to do the work when asked' but I did not want to drive it. To me, part of JC was to see him fight for me. After he hurt me as bad as he did, I needed to know that he wanted me and was willing to fight for me, not just go along for the ride.

It is Kiss's attitude, more than his lack of willing to do the work, that stands in your way here.

Like I said, not everyone needs that for JC, but I did and it seems like you do too. It is VERY frustrating to feel like you are SO CLOSE to a true, unbelievable recovery and marriage and you just can't get him to step over that bridge.

I am going to go post to Kiss now. I am going to tell him how close I was to leaving before H turned it around. H was so close to pushing it a hair too far, and he knows it.

I did give H a deadline, and he is still on the clock so to speak. It has driven him. But more than the timeline I think what drove him to change was seeing the look in my eyes when I gave him that deadline. He knew I didn't hate him anymore, I wasn't resentful or frustrated or bitter or even really that sad. I was just emotionless and done. I was just looking forward to peace in my life, moving forward, without him. That is what drove him, but it was almost the death of us, and still might be.

Keep posting. Keep letting us know what is going on.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: A questionable act - 07/30/12 06:31 PM
Thank you everyone for your kind responses. To me, I need to see that he wants to work on recovery. Not just do things because I want him to do it. I need to see that I am worth the effort to him and I have yet to see that. Time will tell, but I can see that he is stepping things up.

I would really like to find an affordable marriage counselor that could help us, as ours isn't trained in infidelity and "treatment" of that.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: A questionable act - 07/30/12 06:51 PM
Littlebit, thank you for your kind words. I feel the same way you do. I beat myself up if I even THINK I made someone else upset. I know that Kiss is deeply sorry for what he did. But he does need to right his wrongs in order for me to be able to forgive him and move on. If he doesn't, I will not be able to.

Longway, I do feel that he needs some type of accountablity. At least someone he can talk to and the online program would be good for that. Might I want to see if kiss is inested in recovery before I invest the money, kwim? He is getting better with the EN's and he has EP's in place. I try very hard to not bring up the affair, but I still trigger/think about it a lot, which I try to hide. In fact, kiss marked me at like a -1 for O&H because I don't mention them to him!

Unwritten- You hit it on the nose. It's like me telling my daughter to aplogize to her brother. She's not really sorry she wacked him with her doll but she'll do it because I told her to. It's just not sincere and I want it, no I need it to be sincere. If it's not, then it means nothing. And then I feel like I mean nothing.

Sunny- you are awesome, as always.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: A questionable act - 07/30/12 09:16 PM
Originally Posted By: SunnyDinTX
I would let kiss know that you cannot recover in a marriage where you have been betrayed and he is not willing to give you just compensation for that. I would specify every way in which you have cleaned up your side of the street. I would then say that it is unacceptable to you that he has not done X, Y, and Z - especially when you have asked for this several times over. How can you possibly feel secure in this marriage when he is refusing to make amends that are reasonable? I would then give him a deadline to complete X, Y, and Z. I would not fight with him about why he isn't willing - because honestly, that's just too dang bad. If he hadn't cheated, he wouldn't be asked to do these things.


Exactly. He's either in or out.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: A questionable act - 07/30/12 11:27 PM
Originally Posted By: Littlebit3
WOW, SunnyDinTx, that was a wonderful post above. Thank you for sharing your story and thoughts soooooo openly. It really helps to hear it from this perspective. Thank you !!!!!!


Glad to be of some help, Littlebit!
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: A questionable act - 07/30/12 11:47 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Thank you everyone for your kind responses. To me, I need to see that he wants to work on recovery. Not just do things because I want him to do it. I need to see that I am worth the effort to him and I have yet to see that. Time will tell, but I can see that he is stepping things up.

I would really like to find an affordable marriage counselor that could help us, as ours isn't trained in infidelity and "treatment" of that.


I have felt this way at times in recovery. My H needed some guidance at various times. The only thing I would comment on here is that you do have to look at some of Dr. H's works and realize that sometimes men those specific directions of "what to do" instead of the mentality that, "if he really cared, I wouldn't have to ask!"

Yes, of course you want him to want to make just compensation. You don't want him offering hollow apologies/thoughts/actions he doesn't mean, like your example about making someone apologize. That would NOT be RH, would it?

Sometimes, whether because of different personality types or different genders or different upbringings us humans have different ways of coping and showing love and commitment. In that vein, I would caution you against assuming that just because you had to ask H for certain actions that it means he doesn't mean them or is just doing them to appease you. They just may not be natural things for him to do. Just like was mentioned in LongWay's post above, Dr. H talks about a wife writing a list for her H of things for him to do to show affection. As a personal example, I had to tell my H exactly how I would like my birthday to be recognized last year. When he did it, exactly as I spelled out, did I feel a little like it was too bad that I had to coach it out of him? Well, yeah - but that went away. Plus, I chose to focus on the fact that he wanted to do it exactly as I laid out - because that's what would make me happy. Hopefully, this year, I won't have to coach so much.

What I am trying to say is, sometimes we have to realize that what we have in our heads as the proper way for our spouses to show love and commitment is not always their natural way. We have to teach them and that's perfectly fine.

HOWEVER... that is not what I see as the core issue here. The core issue is, kiss not stepping up to the plate when you've already laid out the specifics. That, to me, is a glaring indicator that he is being lazy in recovery and not taking it serious enough.

Now, if he followed your directions to the letter of the law - jumping through those hoops - and you were still feeling exasperated because you had to "ask" and that he wasn't "fighting for the marriage on his own accord..." my advice to you would be somewhat different here. I would be asking different questions and posing different thoughts - because that's a different matter.

So, my next big question to you is, which is it that is REALLY bothering you: that you want him to be doing more without your asking or that he hasn't completed things you have already asked?

My next question would be, what reason(s) does he give for not completing these things? And also, do you feel your requests are reasonable? Do you feel he could give you an alternate way on some of these things as just compensation? If not, it's OK - I'm just asking. It is, after all, YOUR just compensation.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: A questionable act - 07/31/12 04:43 PM
Geez...forgive the typos in that post above. I just had total words missing, lol. It doesn't help that I had a bunch of teenagers going in and out, messing up my thoughts, while I was typing that. smile

I wanted to add something. There is a big difference when you are coaching someone on how to meet your needs as to how they respond to it. If they are enthusiastically implementing your requests it is vastly different than if doing so grudgingly. Not to mention, with the MB requirement of being radically honest, you should know the difference.

Of course, enthusiastic doesn't mean one has to be jumping up and down about something that is difficult. For instance, when it is put to a WS that the BS wants a poly, I don't imagine too many WSs are going to be "enthusiastic" about the poly itself. They should, however, be enthusiastic about the fact that they can do something to make their BSs feel safe and secure in the marriage and put their minds at ease.

This is the only other thing I have to comment on as far as the "needing to make H do stuff" train of thought. When you do give him direction, is he happy to know how it is he can make you feel better? I know for my H, he was happy when he was able to do specific things that helped me move on. After all, he wanted me to move on as quickly as possible and didn't feel so helpless when he could assist towards that end.

I think my wanting to hear the grandiose statements is along the same lines of what you've been saying, RQ, about wanting kiss to "fight for your marriage." I totally understand that. There are different ways to accomplish that but I don't think you will ever fully buy in until you feel that he wants this recovery with you more than anything in the world. He MUST demonstrate this to you in a way that YOU feel this. The only way he gets any kind of pass on this is if he has some sort of disorder that prevents that. I say that because I have a friend whose H has Aspergers, which prevents him from processing things in the same way the wife does when it comes to relationships. MB was CRUCIAL for their marriage even though no infidelity had occurred. It was the only way that H would even meet his wife needs.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: A questionable act - 07/31/12 07:35 PM
I am listening to today's radio program now. No, I am not Ginger, lol, but I sure as heck could be! Very similar story
Posted By: Everthesame Re: A questionable act - 07/31/12 07:41 PM
Originally Posted By: SunnyDinTX
When you do give him direction, is he happy to know how it is he can make you feel better? I know for my H, he was happy when he was able to do specific things that helped me move on. After all, he wanted me to move on as quickly as possible and didn't feel so helpless when he could assist towards that end.



Actually, he just seems to ignore any of my suggestions
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: A questionable act - 08/01/12 05:16 AM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Originally Posted By: SunnyDinTX
When you do give him direction, is he happy to know how it is he can make you feel better? I know for my H, he was happy when he was able to do specific things that helped me move on. After all, he wanted me to move on as quickly as possible and didn't feel so helpless when he could assist towards that end.



Actually, he just seems to ignore any of my suggestions


That shows nothing but disrespect if you ask me! This goes back to him thinking he can do everything on his terms. He needs to learn he cannot. Ignoring your spouse's needs is extremely disrespectful and does not show a buyer's mentality.

You have, I assume, told him how his ignoring your thoughts and suggestions feels to you, so he isn't ignorant on the matter. ???
Posted By: Everthesame Re: A questionable act - 08/01/12 12:17 PM
He knows as I have told him a few times. He says he is trying. I get words but not action.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: A questionable act - 08/01/12 04:59 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
He knows as I have told him a few times. He says he is trying. I get words but not action.


As Yoda says, "Do or do not...there is no try!"

frown

I guess the problem remains in the area of motivation. What's it going to take to get him in gear - that's the million dollar question. I say consequences. I know he's talked to SH a time or two - but it sounds like he needs the extra boot on a regular basis. With the online program, I am concerned that he won't hop onto the site and do it.

Does he have any answers/suggestions (other than for you to just get over it) or is he just making excuses time after time?

Consequences. That's about all you can do with this. He's had plenty of time to "try" so now it's time for "do or do not..."
Posted By: Everthesame Re: A questionable act - 08/01/12 05:33 PM
LOL, thanks Sunny!
Posted By: Doormat_No_More Re: A questionable act - 08/01/12 09:00 PM
Originally Posted By: SunnyDinTX
I guess the problem remains in the area of motivation. What's it going to take to get him in gear - that's the million dollar question.


Love Busters covers passive-aggressiveness, apathy, and bad habits. This is really a case of all three. Sounds like what's really needed is a solid plan to deal with the apathy together. Setting aside time every week to read a chapter aloud and answer the questions together will help address that. We used Sunday nights at 8:33PM. Pick the time you like smile
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: A questionable act - 08/01/12 10:19 PM
Originally Posted By: Doormat_No_More
Originally Posted By: SunnyDinTX
I guess the problem remains in the area of motivation. What's it going to take to get him in gear - that's the million dollar question.


Love Busters covers passive-aggressiveness, apathy, and bad habits. This is really a case of all three. Sounds like what's really needed is a solid plan to deal with the apathy together. Setting aside time every week to read a chapter aloud and answer the questions together will help address that. We used Sunday nights at 8:33PM. Pick the time you like smile


Glad you pointed this out, Door. I had forgotten that Lovebusters covered passive-aggressiveness & apathy - been a long time since I've read that. (LBers are something H and I are good at avoiding, thankfully.)
Posted By: unwritten Re: A questionable act - 08/08/12 02:43 PM
Whats going on RQ?

I've seen Kiss post a few times. Never responded to my post but at least he's posting.

The gist of my post to him was about the 'attitude' more than the action. I think the MB way is to focus on the action, but for me the attitude HAD to accompany it. I was not willing to work on recovery with someone who did not have the proper attitude about it. I was not willing to be the one to 'drive the bus' or strong arm him into the program (which is what it felt like). I could, but why would I want to do that. I am too good to be with a man who is not 110% in, KWIM???

So I get you. I am sure there are people reading Kiss's thread believing that he is doing whatever he can 'in action.' But I understand where he's lacking (and many other people do too, from the responses).

Hope you are doing OK. Thinking about you.

What's with the wanting him to move out to work on yourselves and your M? Is this the start of a new Plan B? Just wondering what your plan is here.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: A questionable act - 08/08/12 03:51 PM
Originally Posted By: unwritten
Whats going on RQ?

I've seen Kiss post a few times. Never responded to my post but at least he's posting.

The gist of my post to him was about the 'attitude' more than the action. I think the MB way is to focus on the action, but for me the attitude HAD to accompany it. I was not willing to work on recovery with someone who did not have the proper attitude about it. I was not willing to be the one to 'drive the bus' or strong arm him into the program (which is what it felt like). I could, but why would I want to do that. I am too good to be with a man who is not 110% in, KWIM???

So I get you. I am sure there are people reading Kiss's thread believing that he is doing whatever he can 'in action.' But I understand where he's lacking (and many other people do too, from the responses).

Hope you are doing OK. Thinking about you.

What's with the wanting him to move out to work on yourselves and your M? Is this the start of a new Plan B? Just wondering what your plan is here.


I agree with the attitude being very important, esp for a WH. Dr. H says there is a difference in women and men: with WW's you may not actually get the "hat in hand" where with WH's, it's needed.

I know I've said before that I did not mind leading recovery in my situation. However, that was because my H had a great attitude about it. He was willing to do whatever was needed and demonstrated he was all in. By his body language and general countenance I could feel his sincerity. Therefore, if I had to be the one to say, "OK..this is next on the list..." that was fine by me.

I do believe feelings follow actions. There are definitely times when you may not feel enthusiastic about something but as soon as you start taking the right actions, your feelings change along with those. And - the MB program is definitely an action program! In that sense, yes, if you take the right steps your relationship will improve, even if you start out reluctantly. There is a caveat to that though: if the wayward is still foggy, there is no way of making deposits into his or her love bank!

There's also the factor that at the beginning of recovery, the WS can be going through withdrawal from the AP. In that time period you may not see the bounding enthusiasm towards the spouse. With time (and correct actions) however, that should dissipate. It's been long enough where that should not be the case with Kiss, as long as he is not in contact with OW.

Here's the thing: the process usually works that once you start recovery and are following the plan 100%, you begin to fall back in love with each other and that grows stronger and stronger. With the growth of those feelings something else happens: the WS begins to feel more and more remorse for the hurt caused. I know in my case I was advised to be patient; that over time I would see and feel remorse and repentance more and more. It was absolutely true! When we really got close again is when I started to feel that H truly was sorry about everything. And - I no longer needed the grandiose statements I'd wanted previously, because what I was getting was much more genuine.

I'm sure you've seen my post to Kiss and I expressed the attitude side of things as well. It IS true that sometimes men don't get the emotional stuff: they think if they're checking off the list, that's all they've gotta do. But - I'm sure all of us women have seen our husbands in action: how they wooed us over in the first place. We know it's possible for them to get in touch with that side.

UW brings up a good point, RQ: have a plan - and not plan C! It's good that you are raising the bar but don't do it without a firm plan in place.

ETA: I apologize if this post is choppy - I'm working on two things at once at the moment. smile
Posted By: Everthesame Re: A questionable act - 08/10/12 03:54 PM
I'm OK guys. Getting over a bad head cold. Will post more when I can.
Thanks for checking on me.

~RQ
Posted By: Everthesame Re: A questionable act - 09/03/12 06:30 PM
Hi everyone, just thought I would check in. I have been having a hard time feeling depressed these last couple of weeks and I can't seem to shake it. Followinf the program hasn't been helping, my ic hasn't been helping, coaching

hasn't been helping, even my ad's aren't helping.

I think I'm going back to the doc to try something else. I might talk to my pastor as well. Though I haven't been to church in about a month. I gotta get out of this funk so I can concentrate on my marriage
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: A questionable act - 09/03/12 10:45 PM
RQ,

So sorry to hear about the depression issues. I've suffered with it in the past so I know how it is. Actually, I still do when my hormones are outta whack. Depression can either by driven by circumstances or by chemicals gone awry. When you've gone through major trauma such as marital crisis, it can be both.

Definitely see your doctor about what's going on! You may need a different type of AD.

I think it's one of those things you just have to approach from all angles - from spiritually to diet and exercise to medicines to marriage recovery to personal recovery and so on.

Also, there is a strong link between depression and vitamin D deficiency. You can try taking some supplements or just getting some sun for 15-20 minutes a day. If you aren't eating healthy, make sure you are taking a good multi-vitamin every day. Also, for what it's worth, since I started adding 2 tablespoons of ground flax seed to my morning cereal I have felt SO MUCH better! The omega 3's and other benefits have just really been fantastic for me. My energy level hasn't been this good in a long time.

Personally, I have a lot of coping mechanisms in place for when I start to see the signs flaring up. These days mine is limited to a few days during PMS, typically, but those days can be terrible if I don't pull out all my big guns.

Let Kiss and the rest of your family know how they can help you during this time!

Sorry you are dealing with this.

((((((((((Rocket Queen))))))))))))
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: A questionable act - 09/03/12 11:19 PM
Working the program isn't working?
Posted By: Northwood8900 Re: A questionable act - 09/03/12 11:34 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Hi everyone, just thought I would check in. I have been having a hard time feeling depressed these last couple of weeks and I can't seem to shake it. Followinf the program hasn't been helping, my ic hasn't been helping, coaching

hasn't been helping, even my ad's aren't helping.


AD's can address a chemical issue in your brain, but will do little if your mood is the result of your husband's (in)action.

Treat the root cause, not the symptom.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: A questionable act - 09/04/12 01:19 AM
HHH, sorry, I was referring to the depression. I know feelings are supposed to follow actions. I'm hoping that will be the case. I do think that a change in my anti- depressants are necessary
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: A questionable act - 09/04/12 01:21 PM
There's no doubt that marital discord can cause depression. However, there is also such a thing as clinical depression as well, which needs to be treated along side lifestyle changes.

Both parties giving 100% to recovery should shore up the marital side of things but if symptoms are still occurring despite best efforts, it is necessary to look at other causes.

I have battled clinical depression at times in my life - whenever big hormone fluctuations have come along. My not getting help for it was a precursor to the marital crisis that led to H's A, in fact. Thus, I would urge anyone who might struggle with it to seek treatment, be it natural cures, coping mechanisms, medications, along with dealing with it within the marriage. While I realize there are times when too many people are labeled clinically depressed when really they just need to fix their marriages or lifestyles, I would hate to see someone not get the help they need when real depression presents itself.

In my case, I know exactly how to tell the difference these days between emotions that are out of whack due to chemicals/hormones vs being out of whack because my marriage needs work. The "cure" is somewhat different in each scenario. It really takes getting to know yourself to be able to differentiate.
Posted By: Everthesame A Haunting depression - 09/04/12 03:11 PM
Sunny, thanks for your input. I have dealt with depression off and on since my teens. It got really bad PP after my 4th child but AD's and IC helped a lot. Then it came back after DDay. I had been doing OK (so I thought) with my current AD's until recently. Whether it is chemically related or Affair related, I don't know. BuI hope a switch in my meds will help.

It did get worse when I realized that the DDay antiversary was approaching and thought "what a sucky year!!"

~RQ
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: A Haunting depression - 09/04/12 03:27 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Sunny, thanks for your input. I have dealt with depression off and on since my teens. It got really bad PP after my 4th child but AD's and IC helped a lot. Then it came back after DDay. I had been doing OK (so I thought) with my current AD's until recently. Whether it is chemically related or Affair related, I don't know. BuI hope a switch in my meds will help.

It did get worse when I realized that the DDay antiversary was approaching and thought "what a sucky year!!"

~RQ


Whether it's chemical or A-related - or a combination of both - Kiss can help you a lot right now by becoming your soft place to fall. One of the best ways my H helps me is to listen and to let me know that whatever's going on, I'm not in it alone. That's one of the hardest parts to depression if you ask me, feeling overwhelmed and that you have to somehow solve everything by yourself. Knowing you can share that burden is the first step towards feeling better in many cases.

Right now Kiss needs to learn how to help you. In doing so, if it's completely marriage related that should relieve a lot of it.

Of course, it is perfectly normal to feel anger and/or depression nearing the anti-versary! I know I certainly did. I felt a huge sense of dread and loss.

Do you have any coping mechanisms in place? Have you shared with Kiss what you need? Are the two of you working out a plan to deal with this depression together?

For me, one of the worst things my H could've suggested was that meds could "fix" me - without him working alongside.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: A Haunting depression - 09/04/12 04:01 PM
Originally Posted By: SunnyDinTX

Whether it's chemical or A-related - or a combination of both - Kiss can help you a lot right now by becoming your soft place to fall. One of the best ways my H helps me is to listen and to let me know that whatever's going on, I'm not in it alone. That's one of the hardest parts to depression if you ask me, feeling overwhelmed and that you have to somehow solve everything by yourself. Knowing you can share that burden is the first step towards feeling better in many cases.

Right now Kiss needs to learn how to help you. In doing so, if it's completely marriage related that should relieve a lot of it.


He has been a comfort to me and says that things will get better. Yesterday he surprised me with a beautiful bouqet of flowers and a small stuffed animal.

Originally Posted By: SunnyDinTX
Of course, it is perfectly normal to feel anger and/or depression nearing the anti-versary! I know I certainly did. I felt a huge sense of dread and loss.

Do you have any coping mechanisms in place? Have you shared with Kiss what you need? Are the two of you working out a plan to deal with this depression together?


I have just been crying a lot. I hate it. I don't want to be a weepy mess. It is sooo unattractive lol. But I just can't help it. Kiss and I went for a car ride yesterday and I spent it sad and crying. I don't know what else to do. Any ideas would be appreciated. I just feel so hopeless about everything
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: A Haunting depression - 09/05/12 01:51 AM
When are you getting back into your doctor?
Posted By: Everthesame Re: A Haunting depression - 09/05/12 02:01 AM
I didn't get a chance to call today but I'm sure I'll get in before the end of the week. I see my IC on Thursday as well. I will talk less with her about my marriage and focus more on me and how I am feeling.

~RQ
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: A Haunting depression - 09/06/12 10:50 PM
Sorry I haven't gotten back to you, RQ. I've been without internet - darn router!!!

My suggestions (for coping) would be to exercise daily, for starters, and eat right. Make sure you're getting all your vitamins in, esp. vitamin D! Get plenty of sleep but not too much sleep, which can add to depression. Pray, if you are a praying person - and if not, spend 10-15 minutes meditating on good things in your life. Find bible verses and/or quotes that give you strength and memorize them. Have some favorite music at your disposal: the feel good stuff that makes you want to tap your toes or makes you feel victorious. Learn to set boundaries so that if you need a mental health break, you can take it. That's really important with young kids around all day.

Take up a new hobby or take a class - find something - ANYTHING - that engages your brain and makes you feel accomplished. Do you spend any time with friends? I try and have lunch with a friend at least every other week. You would be surprised how much positivity comes back to you when you are able to put some out there - if that makes sense. It doesn't take much to do that. It can be complimenting someone at the grocery store or offering a hand to an elderly person who is struggling... making others smile seems to help us smile ourselves.

So many times we look for big answers to problems that seem big and sometimes, the key to feeling better is in all the little things that add up.

I don't know what your particular challenges are with this or I could try and offer more detailed suggestions. These are just some general things that were suggested to me in one form or another and have helped. I'm glad to hear that Kiss is being supportive. Keep in mind that our loved ones can often try and cheer us up in ways that are good but that aren't exactly what we need. Learn to pinpoint exactly what you need and ask for it!

I hope the doc helps!
Posted By: unwritten Re: A Haunting depression - 09/07/12 02:15 PM
Let us know how things are going RQ, darn depression. I had during pregnancy (can't remember what thats called) and postpartum BAD with the first one, and postpartum a little more mildly with the second, just a taste of what its like and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. (OK, maybe someone but I'm not saying any names here.../posow/) Some day I will stop wishing bad things to befall that girl, but not today. Hope your IC and new meds help get it under control!
Posted By: Everthesame Re: A Haunting depression - 09/07/12 03:00 PM
I had a good session with my IC yesterday. She pointed out that whenever I experience depression, the things going on all exhibit being anxious and worried. I don't feel anxious but she is right about being worried. She thinks I am steps away from a full-blown panic attack. She "prescribed" more self care ie: exercising, reading, whatever will keep my mind busy because when my mind is at rest is when it worries. So, Sunny, you were right on the money about that.

She also gave me some ideas about intrusive thoughts that occur at inappropriate times.

So for now, I am continuing my current AD's and also taking my anti-anxiety meds that the doc presribed for me. I'm hoping that will help me get my pyschological strength and motivation back!
Posted By: chickadee1 Re: A Haunting depression - 09/07/12 03:18 PM
rq- i am hooked on acupuncture- it has calmed my brain so much.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: A Haunting depression - 09/07/12 03:59 PM
Chickadee- really? I never thought about that. I had always been afraid of needles....until I started having kids wink
I might have to look into that
Posted By: chickadee1 Re: A Haunting depression - 09/07/12 04:05 PM
i do too but they are not like hurting needles, it has calmed my anxiety so much, after a session it like whatever nothing bad phases me that is lasting up to 2 weeks, unless it was like last night but i am still like whatever i would have been out of my skin before - but look into some one who is licensed.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: A Haunting depression - 09/07/12 04:08 PM
I will look into it smile
Posted By: unwritten Re: A Haunting depression - 09/08/12 02:00 PM
Hrm. I am all for non conventional medicine and all, but acupuncture still gives me the creepers.

RQ I'm glad to hear I am not the only one who has a messy car! Does the DS need apply to cars? LOL. I know it does, H has said things before about me having a messy car so I have actually worked hard over the last yr to keep at least the floors picked up from all the little toys, sweatshirts, etc. kids always leave in there, but still when you fold one of the back seats up the crumbs under it could feed a family of 5. Oh well, work in progress.

We did just POJA that HE would keep the outside of my car clean for me, because a clean car is more important to him than me, and my dad used to do that for my mom to 'take care of her' and so it makes me feel taken care of to have him clean my car.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: A Haunting depression - 09/09/12 02:59 AM
Yes, my car (mini-van!) has a way of collecting stuff. My DD8 had 3 pairs of shoes in there. 3 pairs! I'm not sure how that happens. It doesn't bother me too much which is weird because household clutter drives me nuts!

Kiss is the same with me and does things like to take care of me. I wish I could see him demonstrate his protection of me so easily.
Posted By: TheLongRun Re: A Haunting depression - 09/09/12 04:33 AM
Is car maintenance/cleaning classified as DS or FS. Hard to separate that. (we have to trade cars a lot for work reasons though)
Posted By: TheLongRun Re: A Haunting depression - 09/09/12 04:40 AM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
I have just been crying a lot. I hate it. I don't want to be a weepy mess. It is sooo unattractive lol. But I just can't help it. Kiss and I went for a car ride yesterday and I spent it sad and crying. I don't know what else to do. Any ideas would be appreciated. I just feel so hopeless about everything
There is nothing unattractive about your sadness. I am like that a lot, too. Recovery is hard, yet such a relief. It's okay to cry when you need to.
Posted By: Letty Re: A Haunting depression - 09/09/12 07:33 AM
Originally Posted By: unwritten
Hrm. I am all for non conventional medicine and all, but acupuncture still gives me the creepers.


my oesteopath uses acupuncture too. doesn't hurt, really!

RQ - i'll never forget my car when baby was one year old. cracker crumbs *everywhere!*
Posted By: Everthesame Re: A Haunting depression - 09/09/12 01:07 PM
Ain'tready, DS is one of my top needs so he def got a check Mark for that for the day!
And I hope I didn't offend about the crying. I just don't want to appear weak. I'm feeling a lot more confident about myself. I am working on putting together my own boundaries and deal-breakers. So I know if kiss crosses them, what the consequences will be. It helps to put me back in control of things and my path.

Letty- I'm still finding crumbs!
Posted By: unwritten Re: A Haunting depression - 09/10/12 01:44 PM
Crumbs are good. Then when you are out of groceries and the kids get hungry you have somewhere to send them...go check under the back seat in the car...or what if you are stuck in a snow storm and you don't have food for days then you can eat the crumbs under the seat. So is it messy? Or is it PREPARED.

Speaking of crying and being 'attractive.' I struggle with this because I feel like I need to be on my A game all the time. I'm not, but when I'm not I feel guilty for not being. For instance, last week I was sick with a bad cold, house took a hit and I was not really energetic, didn't put the effort into myself, and I felt guilty like H comes home to a messy house, wife on the couch taking it easy, didn't feel real beautiful looking because I was sick... I know there will be those days, but I do feel guilt for it. Same as when you have sad days. What's the balance between RH and yet hiding some of the negative things going on so as to appear more attractive, even when you are struggling with sadness, illness, whatever.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: A Haunting depression - 09/10/12 04:02 PM
Originally Posted By: unwritten
Crumbs are good. Then when you are out of groceries and the kids get hungry you have somewhere to send them...go check under the back seat in the car...or what if you are stuck in a snow storm and you don't have food for days then you can eat the crumbs under the seat. So is it messy? Or is it PREPARED.

I like that wink


Originally Posted By: unwritten
Speaking of crying and being 'attractive.' I struggle with this because I feel like I need to be on my A game all the time. I'm not, but when I'm not I feel guilty for not being. For instance, last week I was sick with a bad cold, house took a hit and I was not really energetic, didn't put the effort into myself, and I felt guilty like H comes home to a messy house, wife on the couch taking it easy, didn't feel real beautiful looking because I was sick... I know there will be those days, but I do feel guilt for it. Same as when you have sad days. What's the balance between RH and yet hiding some of the negative things going on so as to appear more attractive, even when you are struggling with sadness, illness, whatever.


Good question about RH. Personally, I'd rather keep it to myself. I don't want kiss to think I am bashing him by having to tell him why I'm upset. Can't we just recognize that I am having a moment (or day) and let it go? On another note, I had a trigger on saturday while at DD8 rollerskating party. A song came on that brought a bad memory and I tried to stick it out but my chest got tighter and tighter. I literally fled the building much to kiss's surprise. Apparently he didn't remember or know it was a trigger.

Went to church yesterday (finally) and did get a chance to talk to the Pastor afterwards. I filled her in on the past year and spoke to her about my not being able to forgive. Her thoughts were that I didn't have to do that before I was ready, that time will allow me to feel in my heart when it is ready to do so. She said that all I have to do right now is.....breathe. Sounds good, right?

I also wanted to include here a passage that was said during the service that I thought folks in recovery would be interested in hearing. It's from John 2:14 and 2:17

"What good is it for someone to say that he has faith if his actions do not prove it?" "So it is with faith, if it is alone and includes no actions, then it is dead"
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: A Haunting depression - 09/12/12 06:05 PM
It's important to be RH about where you are at but you don't have to bash Kiss in order to be RH; you don't have to bring up the past either. It can be tricky business but it's all in how you communicate it to him. You make it about you: what you need - where your giver and taker are at the moment - and how he can help you.

Last night, for instance, I was cranky. I didn't want to LB my H, however, in my crankiness. He asked how I was. I told him, "cranky." He asked if it was "in general or with someone/something in specific." I replied it was both: told him my taker felt overwhelmed and that I had much more on my plate than he and the boys, and yet - my giver was feeling guilty that I could not get everything done for everyone. (It was a longer convo than that - but you get the idea.) The key was in saying this calmly and rationally. H came over, hugged me, and asked for specifics so he could know how best to help me. He then got the boys together to get some things done around the house. Later, my giver was much more giving!

It's important to put your feelings into words in a way that is productive. One of the best skills you can learn.

How is the depression issue?
Posted By: Everthesame Re: A Haunting depression - 09/12/12 06:59 PM
Sunny, that makes complete sense. I guess I just need to find a way to communicate it effectively.

The depression has been much better and I had been in a pretty good mood until kiss did a few things that bothered me. I have complained about them before and yet he still does them.

What do you do when your complaints are unheard?
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: A Haunting depression - 09/12/12 07:16 PM
Here's a good clip on radical honesty.
Radio clip on Radical Honesty
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: A Haunting depression - 09/12/12 07:27 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Sunny, that makes complete sense. I guess I just need to find a way to communicate it effectively.

The depression has been much better and I had been in a pretty good mood until kiss did a few things that bothered me. I have complained about them before and yet he still does them.

What do you do when your complaints are unheard?


Well, it depends. When you originally "complained" did you do so in a manner that clearly and concisely told Kiss what you needed, wanted, and/or expected? If not, you need to do so. You go to him and say, "I mentioned before that it was a LB to me when you ______. Yet, you did _____ again yesterday. When you do ______ it makes me feel: sad/hurt/angry and withdraws a lot of units from your love bank."

If you've already explained this in detail, and he does ____ again, you let him know - at the time the LB is being done! This is important. "Kiss, you already know ____ is a LB to me, yet you are doing it right now."

Sometimes it takes us being shown actions as they are happening in order to bring about lasting changes.

Now, if he knowingly does _____ and disregards your feelings, it's time to sit down and hash out a POJA on ________.

There's also the possibility of using consequences for the negative behavior - depending on exactly what the behavior is. Remember - a tenet of MB is that the offending spouse should offer some sort of just compensation for LBs committed.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: A Haunting depression - 09/12/12 08:20 PM
BH, thanks I'll listen to the clip smile

Sunny, I have done that. For example, I have said to him that it bothers me when he doesn't get up in the morning with and help me with the kids. And yet he continues to do it. He will apologize, but continue to do it. I would love to be able to stay in bed for an extra half an hour sometimes but I can't because this responsibilty seems to be laid on me.

Would it be a good idea for me to wtite out different lovebusters for him? I think the main thing with him is the IB.
Posted By: unwritten Re: A Haunting depression - 09/12/12 08:34 PM
When I first read the lovebusters information I was like, ya we don't really do any of those things. But then as time went on I was like, OH ya we do ALL of these things. You just don't recognize them as what they are at the time. Now little things are more recognizable for what they are.

I have found it very helpful to write them down when they occur, and save them for a conversation about how things are going. Otherwise it can get frustrating to have someone constantly calling 'lovebuster' on you (H does this with me, his use of the word lovebuster has become somewhat of a lovebuster...). I would prefer to have him discuss them in one of our 'review' sessions rather than spit them out whenever something annoying occurs, which apparently is a lot.

As far as this getting up early thing. I have kids so I get ya, only since we all get up early for us it is going to bed. H and I have POJA'd recently (but not really put into practice yet), having a night each week where one of us gets kid vacation, and can just lock ourselves in the bedroom to unwind and watch tv while the other puts kids to bed, or go to sleep early to catch up, or whatever. We have kids that don't like to go to bed so it can get to be a grind, and it is SO NICE to have a night off, for both of us. That way if we each have a night, we know there is a break coming and we feel like that break is fair, rather than it falling on my shoulders unless I ask for help (which happens to us moms). Maybe you can work with him on a solution like this?
Posted By: Everthesame Moving forward - 09/12/12 09:03 PM
Originally Posted By: unwritten
When I first read the lovebusters information I was like, ya we don't really do any of those things. But then as time went on I was like, OH ya we do ALL of these things. You just don't recognize them as what they are at the time. Now little things are more recognizable for what they are.


Exactly! I thought the same thing. Now I am learning to recognize them

Originally Posted By: unwritten
I have found it very helpful to write them down when they occur, and save them for a conversation about how things are going. Otherwise it can get frustrating to have someone constantly calling 'lovebuster' on you (H does this with me, his use of the word lovebuster has become somewhat of a lovebuster...). I would prefer to have him discuss them in one of our 'review' sessions rather than spit them out whenever something annoying occurs, which apparently is a lot.
Sorry, I had to LOL at that while picturing it in my head.


Originally Posted By: unwritten
As far as this getting up early thing. I have kids so I get ya, only since we all get up early for us it is going to bed. H and I have POJA'd recently (but not really put into practice yet), having a night each week where one of us gets kid vacation, and can just lock ourselves in the bedroom to unwind and watch tv while the other puts kids to bed, or go to sleep early to catch up, or whatever. We have kids that don't like to go to bed so it can get to be a grind, and it is SO NICE to have a night off, for both of us. That way if we each have a night, we know there is a break coming and we feel like that break is fair, rather than it falling on my shoulders unless I ask for help (which happens to us moms). Maybe you can work with him on a solution like this?

Yes, we could work something out around his schedule.

Thanks!
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Moving forward - 09/13/12 01:23 AM
Just to clarify, I didn't mean to blurt out, "Lovebuster!" every time something occurred. I meant that if it is something that Kiss doesn't realize he's doing, and that's why he is repeating the unwanted behavior, to gently point it out when it is happening.

But yes - otherwise, note it and discuss it when you are both in negotiation mode.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: A Haunting depression - 09/13/12 01:26 AM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
BH, thanks I'll listen to the clip smile

Sunny, I have done that. For example, I have said to him that it bothers me when he doesn't get up in the morning with and help me with the kids. And yet he continues to do it. He will apologize, but continue to do it. I would love to be able to stay in bed for an extra half an hour sometimes but I can't because this responsibilty seems to be laid on me.

Would it be a good idea for me to wtite out different lovebusters for him? I think the main thing with him is the IB.


Yes, definitely make the LB's specific so that they can be avoided.

On this particular issue, it sounds like he is not enthusiastic about getting up with the kids; yet at the same time, it is a LB for him to NOT get up. This is the very type of situation where you use POJA.

Sit down with the "how can we brainstorm a solution to this..." Maybe you take turns getting up. Maybe you go to bed earlier...
Posted By: Everthesame Re: A Haunting depression - 09/13/12 02:14 AM
Yes, a POJA issue. I think it would also be a good idea to have review sessions like UW has with her H.

As far as the RH goes, I think I am confused as to how to balance RH without bringing up the affair, which we are not supposed to talk about.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 09/13/12 02:16 AM
Originally Posted By: SunnyDinTX
Just to clarify, I didn't mean to blurt out, "Lovebuster!" every time something occurred.


Ummm, I kind of like this idea. I can yell it while he is sleeping wink
Posted By: Northwood8900 Re: A Haunting depression - 09/13/12 01:04 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen

As far as the RH goes, I think I am confused as to how to balance RH without bringing up the affair, which we are not supposed to talk about.


I would imagine that, if there is something that's really getting to you, then you should discuss it. I think the intent of "not discussing the affair" is to get it over and done with up front, rather than continuously dragging it out over a period of months or even years.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Moving forward - 09/13/12 01:14 PM
Originally Posted By: SunnyDinTX
Just to clarify, I didn't mean to blurt out, "Lovebuster!" every time something occurred. I meant that if it is something that Kiss doesn't realize he's doing, and that's why he is repeating the unwanted behavior, to gently point it out when it is happening.

But yes - otherwise, note it and discuss it when you are both in negotiation mode.


This is what H does, he just did it this morning. He was telling me a story and I hugged him and started kissing his neck, he said 'thats a total lovebuster because I feel like you are not listening to me.' I was listening to him I just can't stand to see his lips move without wanting to kiss him somewhere...

I totally understand why he doesn't like it, you know I am a work in progress with this whole being too assertive thing. But I do rather hate getting told I am lovebusting all the time, especially when I am being very affectionate to him as it makes me associate LBing with giving affection, not his intent but you know it is a mental association, Pavlov's dogs.

Being married is hard, so much room for error. smile
Posted By: unwritten Re: A Haunting depression - 09/13/12 01:21 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen

As far as the RH goes, I think I am confused as to how to balance RH without bringing up the affair, which we are not supposed to talk about.


Me too RQ. I do not bring up the A, if it is on my mind, etc. EVER anymore. I think about it and then put it on the back shelf of my brain. I DO still have days where I obsess about things in one way or another, but I don't share that with H or anything. Often, if it is affecting my mood, he can tell and he will question me about it and I do give him generic 'just having a hard day' type answers but I do feel like I am not being RH with him, in the same way if he came home and said he had a hard day and wouldn't give me any detail I would feel left out.

Also, I still have fake FB accounts, etc. set up to check up on OW's and also monitor H's behavior, I still log into his accounts and look around at random, and I don't tell him any of that and I kindof feel at this point it is being deceptive. I guess I feel that way because of my OWN indiscretions and the boundaries I have set for myself, then to have a secret account only I have the PW for, seems contradictory and deceptive, even though I only use them to monitor HIS behavior.

Feel like I'm TJing on your thread RQ, sorry about that if I am.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Moving forward - 09/13/12 01:29 PM
Originally Posted By: unwritten
I was listening to him I just can't stand to see his lips move without wanting to kiss him somewhere...


Ah that's mega cute! Did you tell him that?

Ok, if he says 'lovebuster' in future you have a few options. One is to ask 'What type of lovebuster?' just to get clarification on whether he is feeling annoyed at your lack of visible listening(AH) pressured to have sex (SD) or ..well I doubt AO applies!

Just 'lovebuster' alone is very vague and is akin to 'stop it' so asking for clarification on the probelm gives both you the opportunity to be caring and listening, and him the opportunity to ask for what he wants.

If however you just simply dont want him saying 'lovebuster' at you and it is really bugging you - just coach him into respectful requests instead. He says 'lovebuster' and you say 'Are you asking me how I would feel about not doing that and listening to you attentively instead?' and then ask him to phrase all his complaints in that way...

I think Dr H advises 'How would you feel about?' and 'Can we negotiatiate?' as good ways to phrase complaints.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 09/13/12 01:44 PM
Well I spoke to Kiss this morning about falling asleep on the couch and staying there most of the night. This is probably the 3rd time he has done it this week. I told him that I don't get to spend all day with him so it would be nice to spend all night with him by my side. Also, this is something he did OFTEN when he was immersed in his A so it is a big trigger for me as well. He apologized, said he doesn't mean to fall asleep there, and he understands. But we'll see if his actions actually change.

I have to say, that I am very glad that I am learning to communicate my feelings to him now and not holding it all inside. I had raged silently most of our marriage because I didn't communicate effectively and it manifested into a lot of resentment of him. I can say that that is something I have changed for myself for the better. Now I need to see some changes in him.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Moving forward - 09/13/12 01:45 PM
Yes I tell him stuff like that all the time Indie! He knows I can't stand to be in the room with him without having a one track mind (as does everyone else at this point...) That would make me feel like a billion trillion dollars (admiration EN) but for him it seems to have a very different affect. IDK no matter what round about I go through on my own thread, I still think its a GOOD thing to be that attracted to a man I have been with for 15 yrs.

'Lovebuster' has become akin to 'stop it, that annoys me.' I usually know 'why' it is an LB (such as this morning it was because he felt I wasn't listening) but still, it is hard not to generalize just by nature, such as getting the rubberband on my wrist snapped while kissing his neck, my natural instinct is to pull back on kissing his neck, even though he has told me that he just wants me to pay attention to him, ya know? Personally that's why I like to catelog the LB's and present them during a 'review' session if you will, so you can discuss them in a way that leaves less room for miscommunication. Plus, we have kids, almost ALL our conversations are quick interrupted convo's with likely miscommunication, so trying to discuss the 'here's how this feels and this and why' at any given moment can be a bad idea vs waiting until we have each others UA and are able to do it with no interruption and no miscommunication.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Moving forward - 09/13/12 01:49 PM
Kiss's #1 EN is SF right? What can you do to make sure he does not have the desire to sleep on the couch, instead of in the bed next to you. I think you stating your displeasure in it is great! But giving him motivation to NOT want to do it is even better.

Indie is this sacrificing, just seems like a win win here. But it is hard for me to see the 'lose' side of SF so I know I don't always see things clearly with regards to it, as we know.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 09/13/12 01:53 PM
UW, SF is very low on my EN's so I wouldn't be enthusiastic about that. It is also very emotional for me as I often have intruding thoughts during.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Moving forward - 09/13/12 02:09 PM
What are you doing to work on that? I know you have read my lengthy thread about my own SF frustrations, and what a huge impact it has on my attitude, how our recovery is going, etc. Sounds like it is an issue for you as well, and I know how damaging that can be.
Posted By: Northwood8900 Re: Moving forward - 09/13/12 02:19 PM
...it may have something to do with his sleeping on the couch as well.

A catch-22, I suppose.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 09/13/12 02:24 PM
Well, he put 4-5 times per week on his en questionnaire, and I am close to meeting that (3x or more). But I'll ask him.

*Edited to add - Just talked to him and he is happy with the quatity and quality smile
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 09/14/12 03:15 PM
Well, apparently he is not happy with the sf, after all. And didn't come to bed with me last night

Our UA time has been about nil as well for this past week.

I know that MB can work for us, but not if he is unwilling to take part in it. And I still don't see that happening.

frown
Posted By: Northwood8900 Re: Moving forward - 09/14/12 03:32 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Well, apparently he is not happy with the sf, after all. And didn't come to bed with me last night

Our UA time has been about nil as well for this past week.

frown


Talk about the first one (his ignoring the problem isn't going to cut it) and bump up the second one to help fix the first one.

Pardon the word salad there, but it's really a cycle that must be broken.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 09/14/12 03:35 PM
I know that UA is affecting that aspect but without him giving me his schedule, we are not planning any UA time.
Posted By: Doormat_No_More Re: Moving forward - 09/14/12 05:57 PM
You could always follow the Doormat_No_More plan for undivided attention: take time off from work and hang out with your spouse all day for several weeks so you have enough time together. Follow them out to the car and ride along wherever they go. Trust your credit card to get you out of a jam if one arises.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 09/14/12 06:05 PM
Originally Posted By: Doormat_No_More
You could always follow the Doormat_No_More plan for undivided attention: take time off from work and hang out with your spouse all day for several weeks so you have enough time together. Follow them out to the car and ride along wherever they go. Trust your credit card to get you out of a jam if one arises.


Perfect! If only I had a credit card.....
Posted By: unwritten Re: Moving forward - 09/14/12 06:18 PM
That is tough RQ.

Why did he indicate he was getting his EN met, but then change his story after the fact?

Why is he not giving you his schedule?

This is so hard, breaking the cycle. The vortex that keeps sucking me and Mr. UW in too. It is the cycle of 'life pre DDay' where there was no such things as UA time requirements, need meeting, and recovery work. Even though it so blatantly obvious that NO ONE should want that life, it is bad habit to want to do as you have always done.

I hate to say that it takes a hero. It should NOT have to be you, or me, or any BS (even though I am not solely a BS but also a WS, I always feel the need to point that out so nobody thinks I am shirking responsibility). It SHOULD be the WS who is driving the recovery process. But I have found in our sitch that my attitude and effort level can turn this thing around. If I have a good attitude, and I drive the process, and I put the UA schedule together and push us to meet it, H gets excited about it and also expends effort. If I do not carry a positive attitude, show resentment, sulk around waiting for him to do it (which you all know I can do!), he is totally deflated and he just withdraws.

Now I am not suggesting it SHOULD be this way. I wish our H's could behave like some of the FWS's on here, who just pushed the recovery process regardless of whether their BS was angry, resentful, withdrawing, or enthusiastically participating. I am just saying this is the way it is, for us. H has recently said his #1 objective right now is to not let my emotions affect him so much, because with one bad day I can sink this ship in a hurry. So even with my own attitude, I am driving this process.

Contrary to some popular belief, I did push the recovery process this summer. I did behave in a way that I would have had I been the sole WS in this, trying to 'win' back my BS. I WISH Mr UW would have led this process and fought for me, but he never really did. Not in the 110% effort I always wanted to see from him.

IDK, today his effort seems like enough. I just spent an hour on the phone with a close friend whose H had an EA a few yrs ago, which he deny's was anything but a friendship, says she blew it out of proportion. He is headed, IMO down the road of an A now as he has many close female friends and one in particular who he spends time with daily. Anyway, I have directed her to MB concepts. She has written him a letter, asked him to fill out an ENQ, talked to him about opposite sex friends, boundaries, etc. He is completely unwilling to embrace ANY MB principles, get rid of his 'friendships,' etc. She is quite stuck, and doesn't know what to do.

I guess during that convo I kept thinking about Mr UW, how he has embraced MB from day 1. How he has been an open book with complete transparency. How he NEVER had opposite sex friends really that I had to compete with. How he tells me every day he wants to make me happy, spend his life with me, have a great future together. And I guess I was just thankful for all that I have to work with. Mr UW (and Kiss) did not do what we wanted. Feel a deep seated remorse for the unbelievable pain they caused us. Come crawling back, hat in hand, willing to spend every minute of the rest of their lives doing whatever they could to make it up to us. But, at least in my case, there is a LOT to work with. As of today, I am inspired enough to keep working with it. Maybe that will change tomorrow, but I hope not.

Do you have it in you RQ to continue this? To be 'the hero' that your relationship needs to pull your M out of this rut? If you don't, or if you refuse to be the one to do so, that is totally understandable. I don't think Kiss has it in him to be that man. Not now, anyway.

I know Mr UW has told me recently how terrible he feels about himself. How dark his life has been over the last couple of yrs. Now I wonder if he was ever capable of giving me what I so desperately needed, when this situation (and lets face it, my own brow beating) had him beaten down to an unrecognizable puddle. How could he rise from the ashes with the strength to fight for this? When I turn the tables, and I fight for this, it inspires him. When I am kind, and affectionate, and loving in the face of darkness, it inspires him to be a better man. (And when I am the opposite, it sends him far far away from me). Can you do this?

Have you done the online program? We are also talking about doing that to hold us accountable to the work.

I hope what I'm saying is helpful, maybe not. I am not saying Kiss shouldn't have to work for it. Just that, as much as we hate to admit it, this is a darkness for the WS too. Perhaps WE are the stronger one, the one that is capable of leading. Perhaps they are incapable of it. In either case, it does need a leader, and in the absence of one the vortex will suck you in. So I guess it depends if you want to let that happen, because IT SHOULD NOT BE you who has to lead, or be the leader, to try and save your M. You will not get a raised eyebrow from this girl either way.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 09/18/12 04:35 AM
Originally Posted By: unwritten

Do you have it in you RQ to continue this? To be 'the hero' that your relationship needs to pull your M out of this rut? If you don't, or if you refuse to be the one to do so, that is totally understandable. I don't think Kiss has it in him to be that man. Not now, anyway.



Honestly, unwritten, I don't. I just don't have it in me to drive the recovery bus and I just don't care any more about it. He thinks all we have to do is spend time together and we don't get to do much of that. I want us to focus on marriagebuilder concepts and recovery. He doesn't see that we need to do both. We just had a disagreement about this and he was being defensive. I finally said to him "You are in my effin bed and in my effen house because you said you would work on this" So he said "fine, then I'll leave" ...and he packed a bag and he left. I am just so tired of it. Tired of trying to work this on my own while he does his own thing. Tired of meeting his needs while my heart is still broken.

I don't know where he went, but the fact that he could just up and leave tells me a lot. And I'm glad he left because it's better then keeping on the way I was.

~RQ

PS you are one of many who has said that he doesn't have it in him to be the man I need him to be. He has proven it.

Posted By: Northwood8900 Re: Moving forward - 09/18/12 01:19 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
I finally said to him "You are in my effin bed and in my effen house because you said you would work on this" So he said "fine, then I'll leave" ...and he packed a bag and he left.


I don't blame you. Enough of the childish games.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Moving forward - 09/18/12 01:40 PM
I'm sorry frown

I don't blame you ONE BIT (even though it was an AO) because you know I have been there.

Your LB is in the red girlfriend, and I don't see Kiss care one bit about that. He wants to stay married to you but under his terms, which is a half ass effort at best to 'work the program' only not really working the program, just spending time together (and it doesn't even seem like most of this is true UA time) and not even enough time.

Bottom line it is not about what he thinks is needed for recovery. You are the BS and YOU decide what is needed for recovery. YOU decide what you need to heal. That was one of my greatest issues for a long time, the fact that I was so hurt, and I thought how could H not only hurt me but now choose to NOT do the things that might take some of this pain away? Why would he choose to watch me suffer longer and longer rather than get off his duff and do the work? Made me feel like SUCH a low priority.

I am sorry Kiss did not step up. I am sorry that he left. What is your plan now? Are you thinking about going back into Plan B? I think it would definitely be warranted. I think you have done everything you can at this point.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 09/18/12 03:31 PM
Originally Posted By: unwritten


Your LB is in the red girlfriend, and I don't see Kiss care one bit about that. He wants to stay married to you but under his terms, which is a half ass effort at best to 'work the program' only not really working the program, just spending time together (and it doesn't even seem like most of this is true UA time) and not even enough time.

Bottom line it is not about what he thinks is needed for recovery. You are the BS and YOU decide what is needed for recovery. YOU decide what you need to heal. That was one of my greatest issues for a long time, the fact that I was so hurt, and I thought how could H not only hurt me but now choose to NOT do the things that might take some of this pain away? Why would he choose to watch me suffer longer and longer rather than get off his duff and do the work? Made me feel like SUCH a low priority.



Exactly! That is how I feel. He was let into the house because he said he agreed with and would follow through with my terms. He still has not completed those terms or even shown any interest in doing them. I don't have to settle for that. It's no hardship for me if he's not living there. Emotionally is a whole other ball game. But I've gone through it before.

But yes, I have done all I can at this point.


Northwood, I thad the same thought in my head the other night. Because when kiss is annoyed he won't call me or will physically turn his back on me. This is too big of a trauma for childish games. And I certainly don't deserve it
Posted By: unwritten Re: Moving forward - 09/18/12 04:29 PM
Are you going to go into Plan B again?
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 09/18/12 04:36 PM
I'm weighing my options smile
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Moving forward - 09/18/12 09:10 PM
I'm really sorry, RQ. It truly does seem that Kiss has had to be drug along the recovery path for quite some time. While I, in particular, didn't have a problem "leading" recovery (because I knew what it was going to take for me) it was because I had a spouse who was willing to do WHATEVER I needed, for however long I needed. Everything that has been asked of him he has done enthusiastically - or at least with a good attitude. I think we were all hoping that Kiss was going to get there. It's obvious he has not.

False recovery can be a very difficult thing. For some it is worse than the original betrayal.

Make sure your ducks are in a row - every last one of them! If ever there was a time to go to plan B it is NOW. Do it for yourself - for your children. It really is the best way to a healthier you - no matter WHAT is going on with Kiss. I remember what a bumpy ride it was for you and the kids previously when he left - lots of drama: drama that can pull you under and drown you quickly. You have to take care of yourself!
Posted By: no_where_to_go Re: Moving forward - 09/19/12 12:29 AM
It's funny how rocketqueen puts all the blame of our failing recovery on me! When ever I bring up issues she has to throw something back in my face. I thought that this program was about discussing your emotional needs and how each other is doing. Giving feedback to Rocketqueen is like calling for world war three. I feel like this is the last years of our marriage repeated. In the same room with her but really alone!!!! Come home all excited to see her and get nothing! Nothing!!!!!!!! I should be custom to this treatment. It's how I have felt for years.Let her know it bothers you or you are disappointed and all of the sudden you are the piece of crap.

I love my wife so much but she talks a great game of following this program but she doesn't do it her self. i have sat down with her to plan out our week but we get no where. Always excuses or some other problem. I have said I would leave my job but she says no that its not a big issue and I would loose to much money. Last night we talk about things and it now the jobs hours are a huge issue.

I don't want to lose my wife. She is everything to me. No she hasn't meet my emotional needs but I am ok with that I have done something terrable to her and I don't deserve her but she doesn't look at anything from my view. I just want her to be their for me and I want her to be my best friend!!!! I'm still am getting the our marriage is a job. You do those things over their and I will do the things here attitude. Instead of lets get these things done here together and then we can work on those thing together after.

I LOVE MY WIFE!!!!! SSSOOO FRUSTRATED BECAUSE I KNOW WE COULD BE GOOD.

chalupee I love you
forever no matter what
KISS
Posted By: indiegirl Re: Moving forward - 09/19/12 12:45 AM
Kiss I think you would get excellent coaching on your own thread. There isn't anything we can do here for you here without disrupting RQs thread.

That is why spouses don't post on each others thread.

Many a WS has won back their BS using MB coaching, even from afar.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Moving forward - 09/19/12 04:01 PM
RQ if you need an IM let me know.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 09/19/12 04:04 PM
Thanks unwritten, right now I am absolutely appalled and humiliated. I will notify the mods for your email.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Moving forward - 09/19/12 04:14 PM
Don't be humiliated. Kiss has had many, many people try to help him on his own thread, and he has not embraced that help. If he was having issues regarding how YOU were working the program, he could have asked for advice on his OWN THREAD about that, and he would have gotten help.

Now when you are being advised plan B, he comes on your thread to try and what, derail you, make you look bad to us, change our perception or advice to you, or send you some kind of message...you are not the one who should be humiliated about that.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Moving forward - 09/19/12 05:34 PM
Originally Posted By: unwritten
Don't be humiliated. Kiss has had many, many people try to help him on his own thread, and he has not embraced that help. If he was having issues regarding how YOU were working the program, he could have asked for advice on his OWN THREAD about that, and he would have gotten help.

Now when you are being advised plan B, he comes on your thread to try and what, derail you, make you look bad to us, change our perception or advice to you, or send you some kind of message...you are not the one who should be humiliated about that.


AGREED!
Posted By: Qoheleth Re: Moving forward - 09/19/12 07:01 PM
Quote:
Love Busters covers passive-aggressiveness, apathy, and bad habits.

Which of the LBs cover passive-aggressiveness and apathy?
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 09/19/12 07:39 PM
Originally Posted By: kiss
It's funny how rocketqueen puts all the blame of our failing recovery on me! When ever I bring up issues she has to throw something back in my face. Not sure what he is talking about here I thought that this program was about discussing your emotional needs and how each other is doing. says the guy who hasn't even read the articles here and has NO idea what the program is about Giving feedback to Rocketqueen is like calling for world war three. I feel like this is the last years of our marriage repeated. In the same room with her but really alone!!!! Come home all excited to see her and get nothing! Nothing!!!!!!!! I should be custom to this treatment. It's how I have felt for years. Let her know it bothers you or you are disappointed and all of the sudden you are the piece of crap. Sounds like the same things he said to blame his affair on me. Now I'm responsible for our recovery getting nowhere
I love my wife so much but she talks a great game of following this program but she doesn't do it her self. i have sat down with her to plan out our week but we get no where. Always excuses or some other problem. This is not true I have said I would leave my job but she says no that its not a big issue and I would loose to much money. Last night we talk about things and it now the jobs hours are a huge issue. I spoke to how we need counseling. It is difficult for him to go with his hours. The coaching is expensive. So why not make use of the free and priceless advice we get here and in the books. I don't want to lose my wife. She is everything to me. No she hasn't meet my emotional needs but I am ok with that I have done something terrable to her and I don't deserve her but she doesn't look at anything from my view. I just want her to be their for me and I want her to be my best friend!!!! I'm still am getting the our marriage is a job. You do those things over their and I will do the things here attitude. Instead of lets get these things done here together and then we can work on those thing together after.

I LOVE MY WIFE!!!!! SSSOOO FRUSTRATED BECAUSE I KNOW WE COULD BE GOOD.

chalupee I love you
forever no matter what
KISS


Since he decided to call me out on a few things here.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Moving forward - 09/19/12 08:12 PM
You don't need to defend yourself RQ.

The beauty of being HERE ON THIS BOARD is that, unless we are VERY manipulative and are masterminds at snowing the best lie sniffer outers that no money can buy, we can not be here, blogging about our life and our recovery, without the BEST people calling us out on our own BS. It has happened to me...well...more times than I can count. It continues to happen to me, except now I am pretty sure I am going to get called out when I am typing something but I type it anyway, because I just need a good verbal spanking every now and then and I know it. So we know what you've done and haven't done, because you have been here writing about it, and if your head was in the sand about something the good people here would have called you out about it.

There are times when my H could have written that very paragraph. Bottom line is, we are hurt as the BS, beyond words. Beyond their understanding really, unless they too have felt the sting of betrayal (which Kiss has not). Even if, over this recovery period, you had lashed out here and there, withdrawn and refused to meet some of his needs, failed in following the program some days, let the little devil of resentment run the show a day or two...it is to be expected. Not advised, but expected. Understandable. ANY BS on this board can understand.

It is the WS job to lead recovery, to take the higher road DESPITE your reactions on those hard days. Not to use them against you and throw it in your face as to why the recovery is going no where.

You are here, posting, seeking help. You are reading, educating yourself, doing everything you can to better understand how your M got to this point and how to get it out. We know what you desire and what you are willing to work for, because you have written about it many of the days over the last what, year? (IDK I missed your first thread) Have you had bad days, have you withdrawn, have you failed to play the perfect game of cards? Has ANY BS played the perfect game??? I'm guessing not, me, not even CLOSE. So don't feel like you need to defend yourself to his rant. You don't.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 09/19/12 08:30 PM
Thanks unwritten (and to sunny D) for your encouragement. I had been avoiding kiss's thread and just now went to read it. And you are right that many, many times he has been given advice and chose not to listen or answer.

And your last paragraph, it is exactly what I have been doing and I said the same to kiss last night. Now I feel like it was all for nothing.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Moving forward - 09/19/12 08:34 PM
Nothing you have done is 'for nothing.' You have put as much effort in as a BS who has had the rug of her life ripped out from under her and her heart devastated can do. This is a hard hard road, even with two very enthusiastic and willing spouses. It is next to impossible without. You have put work in that has I assume made you more aware of yourself, better equipped to understand love, relationships, and marriage. Whether Kiss does a complete 180 and takes advantage of that or not, you are a better person for it! At least, without DJing, that's how I have always felt. Regardless of how this turns out, I am a better person for the work I have done.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 09/19/12 08:50 PM
Well, maybe "for nothing" is the wrong words. But more like we haven't gotten anywhere if he is still blaming me for the state of our marriage, no matter how hard I have tried.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Moving forward - 09/19/12 10:14 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Well, maybe "for nothing" is the wrong words. But more like we haven't gotten anywhere if he is still blaming me for the state of our marriage, no matter how hard I have tried.


While it is important to successful recovery for BS's to own their own mistakes and clean up their sides of the street, it really does start with the WS understanding that nothing the BS did or didn't do justified the waywardness or the infidelity. And certainly, that nothing the BS did was as painful to them as the betrayal they inflicted.

Sometimes it does take the WS awhile to feel the full remorse of that: as you start rebuilding love and the bank begins to get full, it can be such that the WS feels more and more remorse for the pain they caused. However, it really is essential to start with accepting responsibility on the part of the WS for driving the marriage into a deep ditch.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 09/20/12 08:19 PM
[quote=SunnyDinTX
Sometimes it does take the WS awhile to feel the full remorse of that: as you start rebuilding love and the bank begins to get full, it can be such that the WS feels more and more remorse for the pain they caused. However, it really is essential to start with accepting responsibility on the part of the WS for driving the marriage into a deep ditch. [/quote]

That is what I had been hoping for.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 09/23/12 01:16 AM
Sigh, bored right now. Kiss is home and we could get in some good ua time but he is too busy playing with his toys. Too bad the boards are quiet since I have time on my hands.

Guess I'll go read lovebusters...again.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Moving forward - 09/23/12 01:37 AM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Sigh, bored right now. Kiss is home and we could get in some good ua time but he is too busy playing with his toys. Too bad the boards are quiet since I have time on my hands.

Guess I'll go read lovebusters...again.

He's home and you aren't spending any time together?
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 09/26/12 09:58 PM
Kiss and I are going to Niagara Falls this weekend. He had taken time off from work to go. Only thing is that he didn't take into account that we have no one to watch the kids. DS21 works and can't watch them. My DD17 just started 2 jobs and works friday night and saturday night. And she has a 5k on sunday. My DD17 said she would be able to handle the kids after that but that means we won't be able to leave until after the 5k. Doesn't give us much time away together but I don't see what else I can do.

I think 3 days is better than what we usually get, which isn't much.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Moving forward - 09/27/12 02:47 AM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Kiss and I are going to Niagara Falls this weekend. He had taken time off from work to go. Only thing is that he didn't take into account that we have no one to watch the kids. DS21 works and can't watch them. My DD17 just started 2 jobs and works friday night and saturday night. And she has a 5k on sunday. My DD17 said she would be able to handle the kids after that but that means we won't be able to leave until after the 5k. Doesn't give us much time away together but I don't see what else I can do.

I think 3 days is better than what we usually get, which isn't much.



You need to get babysitters. This shouldnt be a difficult task.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 09/27/12 02:58 AM
Originally Posted By: HDW
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Kiss and I are going to Niagara Falls this weekend. He had taken time off from work to go. Only thing is that he didn't take into account that we have no one to watch the kids. DS21 works and can't watch them. My DD17 just started 2 jobs and works friday night and saturday night. And she has a 5k on sunday. My DD17 said she would be able to handle the kids after that but that means we won't be able to leave until after the 5k. Doesn't give us much time away together but I don't see what else I can do.

I think 3 days is better than what we usually get, which isn't much.



You need to get babysitters. This shouldnt be a difficult task.


My DS21 is off on Sunday so he will go to the 5k with them This way we can leave first thing sunday morning. Prior to kiss's a, my parents would have taken them. Now....they won't.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Moving forward - 09/27/12 03:12 AM
But we need to focus on today's weather. Not yesterday's.
My wife left and I have 3 kids and it took a while but I'm set up with babysitters now.
You can do it.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Moving forward - 09/27/12 04:30 PM
RQ do you or Kiss have siblings or close friends that can take your younger kids for a few days?

I would not feel comfortable getting a babysitter that was not well known and trusted for overnights/weekends, but if you have a sibling or good friend close that would be a good option.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Moving forward - 09/27/12 04:36 PM
My only comment here is that Kiss needs to be working on this too.

When H has planned dates, weekends, etc. for us (rare) he somehow manages to 'forget' we have kids, two dogs, a cat and a guinea pig. It is very frustrating and almost negates the entire attempt at planning something romantic, when I have to scramble to find a sitter, dog sitter, cat sitter, guinea pig sitter (what he needs a fresh lettuce salad every night...), wash the clothes, pack the bags, commute everyone around...and then H just comes home and away we go. Shew! Him being romantic to me can add a lot of work, for me! So Kiss should be scrambling to figure this out with you and/or FOR you, IMO.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 09/27/12 04:41 PM
UW, there is only my family nearby. My parents used to take the kids overnight but won't now. MY SIL is nearby and will take them during the day but can't at night. All of his family live in Florida.

This morning, kiss tells me that he made a rather large purchase ($150) yesterday on some pins that he collects. No POJA at all. Now just three days ago we made a budget and he completely screwed it already. Any advice??
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Moving forward - 09/27/12 05:18 PM
Yes.
The budget should be agreed upon using the POJA.
Dr Harley addressed a call about a budget on yesterday's radio show.
He recommended a grocery store exercise as practice.

The thing with budgets is that they have to be followed.
I encourage you to sit down and talk to him about it.
I am familiar with business operations. As a manager Kiss is too. The budget should be a standard operating procedure. (SOP). His employer has an SOP. The household needs one too, agreed upon by the POJA.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 09/27/12 05:56 PM
Originally Posted By: HDW
Yes.
The budget should be agreed upon using the POJA.
Dr Harley addressed a call about a budget on yesterday's radio show.
He recommended a grocery store exercise as practice.

The thing with budgets is that they have to be followed.
I encourage you to sit down and talk to him about it.
I am familiar with business operations. As a manager Kiss is too. The budget should be a standard operating procedure. (SOP). His employer has an SOP. The household needs one too, agreed upon by the POJA.


Finances has been a long standing issue with us. I'd be the one making budgets and writing down every dime I spent and he would treat the debit card like it was a never ending pocket. We have been through bankruptcy and our home is being foreclosed. So this has caused a A LOT of stress.I wrote down the budget the other night while he was at work and gave it to him to look over. I asked him if there was anything he wanted to change and he answered no. He laughed at my budget that I put myself on ($100 for 2 weeks) because he says that I would go over it. Then he goes and spend more than that in 1 sitting. It's very frustrating.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Moving forward - 09/27/12 05:58 PM
HDW, did you miss where she says that they agreed a budget three days ago?

rq, the pins need to go back. If it's possible to return them to the shop then this should be done. You need to get back to where you were when you made the agreement using POJA.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Moving forward - 09/27/12 06:04 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Originally Posted By: HDW
Yes.
The budget should be agreed upon using the POJA.
Dr Harley addressed a call about a budget on yesterday's radio show.
He recommended a grocery store exercise as practice.

The thing with budgets is that they have to be followed.
I encourage you to sit down and talk to him about it.
I am familiar with business operations. As a manager Kiss is too. The budget should be a standard operating procedure. (SOP). His employer has an SOP. The household needs one too, agreed upon by the POJA.


Finances has been a long standing issue with us. I'd be the one making budgets and writing down every dime I spent and he would treat the debit card like it was a never ending pocket. We have been through bankruptcy and our home is being foreclosed. So this has caused a A LOT of stress.I wrote down the budget the other night while he was at work and gave it to him to look over. I asked him if there was anything he wanted to change and he answered no. He laughed at my budget that I put myself on ($100 for 2 weeks) because he says that I would go over it. Then he goes and spend more than that in 1 sitting. It's very frustrating.

This is an issue of IB, which is a LB, and a particularly bad one when a problem has been acknowledged and a solution has been agreed, using POJA - and then unilaterally overridden.

If POJA has been broken by IB, then the IB needs to be reversed, and, the onus is on your H to reverse it, or to find a solution that will satisfy you if it cannot be reversed.

I'll have a look on the private forum to see if I can find Dr H's own advice on a similar situation. I'm sure I've read things like this there. For some couples it is a particularly bad problem that the IB spouse never seems to really appreciate, and Dr H is very firm about not putting up with this. It can break a marriage.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 09/27/12 06:27 PM
Originally Posted By: sugarcane
rq, the pins need to go back. If it's possible to return them to the shop then this should be done. You need to get back to where you were when you made the agreement using POJA.

he would never do this willingly.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 09/27/12 06:28 PM
Originally Posted By: HDW
I'll have a look on the private forum to see if I can find Dr H's own advice on a similar situation. I'm sure I've read things like this there. For some couples it is a particularly bad problem that the IB spouse never seems to really appreciate, and Dr H is very firm about not putting up with this. It can break a marriage.


I appreciate it
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Moving forward - 09/28/12 12:45 AM
rq, I found this. There might be more and I will keep looking, but this seems very close. The situation is over the H's IB purchase of a motorbike. He wanted a bike for a long time as his choice of recreational activity, and his wife did not enjoy riding bikes or want her H to spend money on the purchase of one. She felt that his pursuing this hobby on his own, as he would have had to do since she didn't like riding, would reduce the UA time they spent doing things they both enjoyed, to the detriment of their marriage.

However, when a good deal came up on a bike, the H bought it without asking his wife and she was terribly upset. It was a direct violation of POJA.

Here is some of what Dr H wrote to the husband:

Originally Posted By: Dr. Harley
The first step to recover from any violation of the Policy of Joint Agreement is to reverse the decision. Sell the bike. Once the bike is sold, try to find alternative recreational activities that you would both enjoy just as much. That's the solution.

Isn't it interesting how insidious a violation of the Policy of Joint Agreement can be. It's a trap that slowly ensnares you and wrings out all of the love you have for each other. Here you were, doing much better in your marriage because you were learning how to make decisions that were mutually caring. Then, out of nowhere comes this ugly monster from the deep lagoon. What could you have been thinking?

Not only do I recommend selling the bike, but I also recommend that the subject never be mentioned again. So much resentment has been created on both sides that it's become an issue that probably can't be addressed. But it doesn't have to ruin your marriage because you really don't need that bike. You need a recreational activity that you both enjoy, and the bike will prevent you from finding that intersection to the universe of your individual interests.
....

Resentment is inevitable when being forced to give up something you desire -- like a lover from an affair. But giving up something that benefits one of you at the expense to the other is always the first step toward finding a permanent solution, just like giving up the lover is the first step toward creating a romantic relationship in marriage.

...the bike is not your primary source of joy in your life. Your wife is. But you have squeezed all the joy out of her by settling for something that's not nearly as valuable to your happiness. It's a foolish decision, but one that can be reversed. Sell the bike, and then get to work finding a replacement for it with the one who can really make you happy if you take her feelings into account when you make decisions.

In your case it would not be finding a replacement for the items that he bought, but not replacing them at all, if "no spending" was your original POJA.

The reason I want to find more is that I know Dr H has more to say about what it really means when a spouse breaks POJA. I've read him say that it means that the decision was never enthusiastic in the first place, so you must not get angry but go back to the drawing board and come up with a new POJA. However, I think I've also read him say that a spouse who has been uncaring throughout the marriage, or for a long time, is simply being "uncaring" yet again when breaking POJA, and this is a sign that the marriage is unlikely to succeed. A spouse who has had an affair (uncaring) and who then continues uncaring behaviour with instances of broken POJA is really saying "I don't care about you. I'll passively-aggressively get my way by appearing to agree with you then do whatever the heck I like."

I'm sorry to say that, having followed your thread, your marriage sounds like this latter kind of situation. I'm sorry; that must be hard to read.

I'll look for more tomorrow. It's late here.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Moving forward - 09/28/12 12:52 AM
Originally Posted By: SugarCane
The reason I want to find more is that I know Dr H has more to say about what it really means when a spouse breaks POJA. I've read him say that it means that the decision was never enthusiastic in the first place, so you must not get angry but go back to the drawing board and come up with a new POJA. However, I think I've also read him say that a spouse who has been uncaring throughout the marriage, or for a long time, is simply being "uncaring" yet again when breaking POJA, and this is a sign that the marriage is unlikely to succeed. A spouse who has had an affair (uncaring) and who then continues uncaring behaviour with instances of broken POJA is really saying "I don't care about you. I'll passively-aggressively get my way by appearing to agree with you then do whatever the heck I like."


I can think of a person who wrote Dr Harley about her H's lack of POJA and he wrote her back. I bookmarked it and used to link it but forgot about it until I saw this... I will come back with it...
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Moving forward - 09/28/12 12:57 AM
Poster "mopey" wrote to Dr Harley about her F?WH's lack of using POJA when deciding which AA class to attend (she didn't want him to go to coed classes). This was Dr Harley's response.

Originally Posted By: mopey

Dr. Harley's response.........

Hi Kathi,

I don't believe that the POJA is an option for marriage. I believe that it's essential for marriage. Those who do not follow that guideline face a lifetime of misery. That's because if spouses don't make their decisions with each other's feelings in mind, they end up trampling over each other's feelings, the way your husband has trampled over your feelings. If your husband feels that the POJA is something that can be violated occasionally, he'll have another affair, or do something else to ruin your life. His affair may or may not be with someone in his co-ed AA meeting, but will almost be a certainty. If your husband, or anyone else, for that matter, doesn't take extraordinary precautions to avoid an affair, they'll end up having one because they're so common and so tempting. From my perspective, it's that simple. By the way, I've known for years that co-ed AA meetings are notorious breeding gounds for affairs. In fact, they are often the primary cause of the divorce of couples who have just been through treatment.

Best wishes,
Willard F. Harley, Jr.


Here:
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2418611
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 09/28/12 01:09 AM
Thank you so much, sugarcane and Susie. I'll have a talk with kiss about this. He got them off of eBay so they can go back on it, I'm thinking.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Moving forward - 10/01/12 04:38 PM
RQ hope you and Kiss are having a fun time at Niagra Falls.

Give us an update when you get back.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Moving forward - 10/02/12 02:19 AM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Originally Posted By: sugarcane
rq, the pins need to go back. If it's possible to return them to the shop then this should be done. You need to get back to where you were when you made the agreement using POJA.

he would never do this willingly.


Well then you may as well throw the budget away if it isn't being followed.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Moving forward - 10/02/12 02:29 AM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Thank you so much, sugarcane and Susie. I'll have a talk with kiss about this. He got them off of eBay so they can go back on it, I'm thinking.


eBay enables impulse purchases.
An eBay purchase does not necessarily mean that he doesn't care about you.
Let me ask you: Does he have a history of impulse purchases?
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 10/03/12 06:16 PM
Originally Posted By: HDW
eBay enables impulse purchases.
An eBay purchase does not necessarily mean that he doesn't care about you.
Let me ask you: Does he have a history of impulse purchases?


I would have to answer that with a no. He has numerous pins that he "watches" and most items are listed with a 7 day bidding period so I don't believe the purchase, or any others, was an impulsive one.

He only wanted 4 of the 12 pins that were sold in the set, so right now he is keeping the 4 and re-listing the others separatley. He will be able to re-coup what he paid.

We agreed that any future un-necessary purchases that are more than $50 will have to be agreed upon (POJA'd ) by both of us prior to buying it. if it's not agreed, then it doesn't get bought. What would be good consequences should this agreement be broken by either one of us?
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Moving forward - 10/03/12 06:21 PM
Well I really like the envelope system for budgets developed by Dave Ramsey.
The consequence for breaking the envelope system is that the envelope is empty and you can't buy anything else
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 10/03/12 07:02 PM
Originally Posted By: HDW
Well I really like the envelope system for budgets developed by Dave Ramsey.
The consequence for breaking the envelope system is that the envelope is empty and you can't buy anything else


Yes, I've heard of this and like it. That is why I tell Kiss to take his spending money out of the bank and when it is gone, it's gone. He has a bad habit of using his debit card for everything. And to me, that is like having a magic refillable pocket!
Posted By: LuvsDavid Re: Moving forward - 10/03/12 07:05 PM
get a prepaid debit card that can get refilled every week. It wont "refill" itself like the check card does.
Posted By: Northwood8900 Re: Moving forward - 10/03/12 07:22 PM
Originally Posted By: HDW
Well I really like the envelope system for budgets developed by Dave Ramsey.
The consequence for breaking the envelope system is that the envelope is empty and you can't buy anything else


I was going to suggest Dave Ramsey as well, particularly his "blow fund" concept. Assuming that everyone is going to blow some money on something that isn't in the budget, it's best to, well, budget for it. So you and kiss may do well by each having a "blow" envelope with cash for whatever you feel like buying.

That way, he can use his blow money to buy the pins and the money is accounted for. He's happy and you're happy since the budget isn't blown.

My wife and I leave the debit cards at home and do not use them at all. $7 here and $10 there adds up to $100 very quickly. Then again, $100 doesn't seem to be worth as much as it used to be smile but you'd be surprised at how much you have left over when you don't debit anything. Gasoline goes on a single credit card that's passed back and forth between us and paid off every month.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 10/03/12 07:56 PM
Kiss has a budget of $20 in spending money per day for food, coffee etc. If he only spent $10, then the $10 he didn't spend can go into his "blow fund". Is that the idea?

We have a small amount left over for taking the kids out or going out to dinner so I wouldn't want that being used for the blow fund.
Posted By: Northwood8900 Re: Moving forward - 10/03/12 08:29 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Kiss has a budget of $20 in spending money per day for food, coffee etc. If he only spent $10, then the $10 he didn't spend can go into his "blow fund". Is that the idea?


If you're ok with it then, yes, it seems reasonable. Or it can go back into something else...really just whatever y'all agree (and are ok) with. POJA.

Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
We have a small amount left over for taking the kids out or going out to dinner so I wouldn't want that being used for the blow fund.


In our case, we "restock" the cash every two weeks. Any day-to-day surplus goes back into the envelope and, if there's any left at the end of the two weeks we do something with it. Leftover money doesn't happen too often, though. smile

Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 10/04/12 02:33 AM
Originally Posted By: unwritten
RQ hope you and Kiss are having a fun time at Niagra Falls.

Give us an update when you get back.


We did have fun while we were away. Went on the Maid of the Mist and did lots of walking around. Most EN's were met though I think we could have talked more on the 5+ hours drive! God, I was so bored. It is hard to come up with conversation that does not have roots in the past and doesn't speak of the pending future. Does that make sense? We speak of the kids and the days plans and work, but nothing of importance.

I also wanted to mention the talk with my parents last week. I thought it was amazing of my mother to invite us over to talk. I tried to stay out of the conversation except to tell my parents that kiss is trying to make things right and that I do see what he is doing but I also had to back up my parents in things they said that kiss bristled at. He didn't really say much for himself and I think there was much more he could have said. And at one point my brother walked into the house and kiss didn't even say hello to him or anything. There were also a few red flags that concern me that I have to sort through in my head.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Moving forward - 10/04/12 03:06 AM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Originally Posted By: HDW
Well I really like the envelope system for budgets developed by Dave Ramsey.
The consequence for breaking the envelope system is that the envelope is empty and you can't buy anything else


Yes, I've heard of this and like it. That is why I tell Kiss to take his spending money out of the bank and when it is gone, it's gone. He has a bad habit of using his debit card for everything. And to me, that is like having a magic refillable pocket!


Then you should talk about getting rid of the debit card. Using the envelop system does not require a debit card
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Moving forward - 10/04/12 03:01 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Originally Posted By: unwritten
RQ hope you and Kiss are having a fun time at Niagra Falls.

Give us an update when you get back.


We did have fun while we were away. Went on the Maid of the Mist and did lots of walking around. Most EN's were met though I think we could have talked more on the 5+ hours drive! God, I was so bored. It is hard to come up with conversation that does not have roots in the past and doesn't speak of the pending future. Does that make sense? We speak of the kids and the days plans and work, but nothing of importance.

I also wanted to mention the talk with my parents last week. I thought it was amazing of my mother to invite us over to talk. I tried to stay out of the conversation except to tell my parents that kiss is trying to make things right and that I do see what he is doing but I also had to back up my parents in things they said that kiss bristled at. He didn't really say much for himself and I think there was much more he could have said. And at one point my brother walked into the house and kiss didn't even say hello to him or anything. There were also a few red flags that concern me that I have to sort through in my head.


Can you give us specifics on the red flags and what kiss bristled at? It would be a good idea to mull those over objectively with us or with SH.

As for what to talk about on those types of trips or any other time, it really helps to have some conversation starters in mind that get the two of you sharing your innermost desires; things that help you fall in love again. I can't remember what book it's from, but there was a list I remember somewhere with things like that. (I'll do some digging.) A few of them are about future dreams, plans..like, "if you could live anywhere in the world, where would it be and why," or what would you do if you won the lottery...would you quit work? What would you do with your spare time?

Other things can get you in touch with your playful side: who was your favorite relative as a kid? The most memorable day as a child or as a teen... Favorite subjects in school and why; favorite teachers...

Of course, you can also take steps towards intimacy: what was your most embarrassing moment? A time where you felt really afraid or really down? Sharing something you've never shared with your spouse because you're too embarrassed, too guarded, or ashamed - something that happened before the two of you met - not A related.

In everything you each describe your feelings and go deeper than "happy or sad or angry" but WHY: what about that person/place/thing/event made you happy, sad, angry, etc...

These are the best kind of conversations to find connection with each other - and the two of you desperately need that connection right now. It opens up the door toward empathy and understanding - and all the good things that come with it.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 10/04/12 06:12 PM
Sunny, what bothered me was 1) that he got upset about what my parents said about his (how they had ignored me, etc) during the separation. 2) He is still justifying some things 3) my mother doubts his sincerity 4) he didn't say much 5) my father had to prod him to apologize to my mom. I still get the feeling that he is doing and saying things because they are expected and not because he feels it should be done. What is that called?

I like your ideas about the conversation starters. I remember one time trying to get kiss to open up and talk to me and had asked him what superhero he would like to be. Rather than answering me he gave me a non-superhero and then would answer with "I don't know" I think we both need to work on our conversation but I get frustrated with him and his short responses.

PS, I also read his latest posts. Sunny, what impression do you get from them? I'm curious to see if you catch it..I will not be reading them anymore. He is def posting for my benefit.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Moving forward - 10/04/12 09:29 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Sunny, what bothered me was 1) that he got upset about what my parents said about his (how they had ignored me, etc) during the separation. 2) He is still justifying some things 3) my mother doubts his sincerity 4) he didn't say much 5) my father had to prod him to apologize to my mom. I still get the feeling that he is doing and saying things because they are expected and not because he feels it should be done. What is that called?

I like your ideas about the conversation starters. I remember one time trying to get kiss to open up and talk to me and had asked him what superhero he would like to be. Rather than answering me he gave me a non-superhero and then would answer with "I don't know" I think we both need to work on our conversation but I get frustrated with him and his short responses.

PS, I also read his latest posts. Sunny, what impression do you get from them? I'm curious to see if you catch it..I will not be reading them anymore. He is def posting for my benefit.


It would definitely be a red flag to me too - everything you've described about the conversation with your family. It's disheartening that he is still justifying. At this point in recovery, if he is just telling you what you want to hear and not really remorseful, he is NOT being O&H - a key element of recovery! He should be well past the point of withdrawal - which is where you might get some of that fake it til you make it stuff. Well past the time for that.

Is Kiss usually this disconnected with his feelings - that he can't have real conversations? I would be frustrated with the short responses too. Some people have to learn to have those deep conversations though. There are a myriad of reasons someone may not be a sharing type - doesn't mean they can't learn. I suppose you've shared with him that you NEED this intimate conversation?

As for his latest posts - it seems to me that he is avoiding discussing things in depth here as well. Either he doesn't want to get 2x4'd or he is too arrogant to think he can really be helped by MB posters.

In essence, there's nothing wrong with Kiss posting for your benefit - but the caveat is that he MUST still be O&H while posting: open to real help and honest with what he shares, the good and the bad.

Is it possible at all that he really sees things differently than you do? Does he really believe the conversation went well, for instance?

If perception is the problem that's a much different fix than having a spouse who is only going through the motions of recovery.

My last thought: there are certain conditions that make people view the world differently than most of us - especially when it comes to the social world. This is usually associated with Autism spectrum disorders. However, that is rare. And even then, those people can learn to be good partners using MB principles. In fact, it is IMPERATIVE for them. (I'm talking Aspergers here, not full blown Autism.) Some people have never been diagnosed because they are normal but don't always deal well with people and such. I'm just asking if it's possible - even though it's unlikely.

If Kiss still only wants to do what HE thinks is required in recovery and not the harder stuff, perhaps he is still shrugging off responsibility of everything that's happened.

In my sitch, my H was not the "begging and groveling" type. I think I've shared that. BUT...he WAS willing to do "what it took: what I needed" and still is - even when it was hard. It's a little hard to explain except to say that I could see/feel/hear the humility that he had - and I HAD to know it was there in order to recover.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 10/04/12 11:03 PM
Originally Posted By: SunnyDinTX


It would definitely be a red flag to me too - everything you've described about the conversation with your family. It's disheartening that he is still justifying. At this point in recovery, if he is just telling you what you want to hear and not really remorseful, he is NOT being O&H - a key element of recovery! He should be well past the point of withdrawal - which is where you might get some of that fake it til you make it stuff. Well past the time for that.
I guess it is just hard for me to tell the difference. I still don't trust what he says.

Originally Posted By: SunnyD
Is Kiss usually this disconnected with his feelings - that he can't have real conversations? I would be frustrated with the short responses too. Some people have to learn to have those deep conversations though. There are a myriad of reasons someone may not be a sharing type - doesn't mean they can't learn. I suppose you've shared with him that you NEED this intimate conversation?

I do recall that when SH was coaching kiss he had told him to re-read the chapter about intimate conversation. We do lack a depth in conversation and I can talk for hours with my friends!

Originally Posted By: sunnyD
Is it possible at all that he really sees things differently than you do? Does he really believe the conversation went well, for instance?


Ahh but he doesn't say it went well. He says "it went about how I expected." and "I know how important it is to her." I interpret that a certain way but don't want to DJ him here.

Sigh. Maybe I'm just reading too much into things. That's why I asked for an outsiders view. But I need him to share how he really feels about things and how he really thinks about things, etc.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Moving forward - 10/05/12 12:43 AM
Yeah, I noticed he said "how he expected" and referenced that it was important to you. But - that can be taken several ways as it is very ambiguous and vague. If one were just reading his thread, without the benefit of your comments here about how you think it went, it could mean that "it was hard; I didn't want to do it - but it was important to her; I'm still uncomfortable with the family; I didn't expect them to forgive me immediately, but it was a first step and I plan on winning them over..."

So, I was just curious if the two of you perceive the conversation differently or if he was just avoiding people getting on his case about his attitude. From there, you have to ask - why. If he's avoiding, it's either because he feels above getting help here - OR - he is still not taking responsibility and therefore doesn't see the need for help here - OR - there is something even deeper going on. After all this time I think it's about time to get to the bottom of that.

On the conversation - YES - you MUST have deeper conversations. Sometimes people avoid them because they're concerned (consciously or subconsciously) about what they might hear or say - or they are conflict avoiders. Been there! Until you go deeper, you won't connect emotionally. Without that emotional connection, you will not fall back in love. When you feel that connection, the O&H falls into place.

Did Kiss re-read the IC chapter as prescribed?
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 10/05/12 05:28 PM
Originally Posted By: SunnyDinTX

Did Kiss re-read the IC chapter as prescribed?



No, I don't believe he has.

Aaand, I checked his phone last night and there were some friendly texts back and forth between him and a female co-worker that were not work-related. I just don't know what the heck I am going to do with him banghead
Posted By: unwritten Re: Moving forward - 10/05/12 05:33 PM
Oh goodness. KISS. What goes on in his brain.

That is really not good. In this stage of the game, he KNOWS that it is absolutely unacceptable. There is no confusion to the rules. Which means he knew that, and did it anyway. Knowing what the impact would be, knowing what the fallout could be, he just did it anyway. That is a level of blatant disregard for you, your recovery, EP's, etc. Sometimes I feel like he almost gives up. Which is sad because he never really even worked that hard to begin with.

IDK RQ what are you going to do here. I think you have a decision to make. If he has this level of selfish disregard now while you are in the middle of a crisis time during your recovery, then what will he do when the dust has settled and you are in the routine again.
Posted By: Northwood8900 Re: Moving forward - 10/05/12 05:34 PM
This is what, round three or four or five on this ride?

Time to step off, RQ, and for good this time.
Posted By: black_raven Re: Moving forward - 10/05/12 06:07 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
I just don't know what the heck I am going to do with him banghead


That's a big part of the problem...what are you going to do with YOU? kiss' lack of care for you is glaring...you just don't want to face/accept it.

Originally Posted By: Northwood8900
This is what, round three or four or five on this ride?

Time to step off, RQ, and for good this time.


x 2

Reading his thread and yours is like watching a trainwreck in slow motion. Sorry RQ, but I don't see any change/improvements here. Get off the crazy train.

Hugs to you.
Posted By: Neak Re: Moving forward - 10/05/12 06:18 PM
Quote:
Aaand, I checked his phone last night and there were some friendly texts back and forth between him and a female co-worker that were not work-related. I just don't know what the heck I am going to do with him


I don't know what you're actually going to do with him, but I know what you SHOULD do.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 10/05/12 06:22 PM
Originally Posted By: unwritten
That is really not good. In this stage of the game, he KNOWS that it is absolutely unacceptable. There is no confusion to the rules. Which means he knew that, and did it anyway. Knowing what the impact would be, knowing what the fallout could be, he just did it anyway. That is a level of blatant disregard for you, your recovery, EP's, etc. Sometimes I feel like he almost gives up. Which is sad because he never really even worked that hard to begin with.

IDK RQ what are you going to do here. I think you have a decision to make. If he has this level of selfish disregard now while you are in the middle of a crisis time during your recovery, then what will he do when the dust has settled and you are in the routine again.


That is the thing, he should know the rules here. He should understand the EP's and why they are, even if they aren't spelled out. I don't feel that it is intentional, but that means to me that he is not being intentional in protecting our marriage.

I don't see myself ever feeling safe with him. Obviously he has learned nothing here and still doesn' understand why he needs to do.
Posted By: armymama Re: Moving forward - 10/05/12 07:37 PM
RQ,

I am stuggling with some of my own husband's recent independent behavior. In conversation this morning, I said that acting out of ignorance of MB is regretful. But, after having an MB education, continuing to act independently shows the lack of care and concern for the spouse. Your husband knows exactly what he is doing, that he is hurting you and he continues to do it.

AM
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Moving forward - 10/05/12 07:48 PM
I agree with everyone else here - at this point he is showing BLATANT disrespect towards you. There should be absolutely ZERO reason for friendly texts between him and any female that is not related to him at this point!

You say he should know the boundaries even if they aren't spelled out. Were they not spelled out to him MONTHS ago? Come on - he has been around long enough to know he can't be conversing with other women! I didn't even have to tell my H that - he told me. Came home from work and said it was hard to not be the friendly guy that always talked to people and asked how they're doing and such, but he was keeping it strictly business with women.

I wouldn't feel safe with him either.
Posted By: Northwood8900 Re: Moving forward - 10/05/12 07:51 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Obviously he has learned nothing here and still doesn't understand why he needs to do.


Because....there are no consequences other than you being irritated at him.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Moving forward - 10/05/12 07:55 PM
RQ,

Wasn't texting an OS co-worker, other than work related issue, an EP?

So he broke an EP AGAIN. So what was your condition if he broke an EP?
Posted By: Neak Re: Moving forward - 10/05/12 08:02 PM
Quote:
I don't feel that it is intentional, but that means to me that he is not being intentional in protecting our marriage.


Do you really want to trust your future to someone who is this "careless"?
Posted By: JenniferVoyager Re: Moving forward - 10/10/12 11:12 AM
Hey RQ, how are you doing? I know the silence from kiss on his thread is deafening after he downplayed his recent IB and EP breaking. He just refuses to care for you. That must be heartbreaking, I'm so sorry. Are you okay. Are you able to self-love through this? Please know we're still here for you.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 10/10/12 11:35 AM
Hi Jennifer, thanks for checking in on me. I'm OK. I am broken-hearted. I thought that our marriage could be better than before but I am learning that that may not be possible. Its a hard pill to swallow. This is not what I thought my life would be like.

They always said Recovery would be hard. It's been so hard that I wonder if I did the right thing in reconciling and trying to move on. Maybe we were both better off with the way things were and I shouldn't have messed with it.

But You're right. Time to get my mind to a better place and be able to be truly happy someday.
Posted By: karmasrose Re: Moving forward - 10/10/12 09:05 PM
You would not be better off if you hadn't questioned/messed with it. You deserve better than that.

Has he made any explanation or efforts to you but not the board? As the others have said, the silence on his thread IS deafening...
Posted By: JenniferVoyager Re: Moving forward - 10/10/12 09:38 PM
My counselor always asksy to focus on what the next right thing is...do what is your next move? From your signature, you have kids from a previous relationship, right? For me focusing on how I'd been a successful, thriving single mom helped me find the strength to do it again. And amazingly my life is MUCH easier now that my WH is not in it...I don't hand to rely on an unreliable person, I'm not constantly faced with his lack of care, and I've got a lot more perspective on our history together. I'm careful not to re-wrote, but just look back through a less co-dependent/rescuing/excusing lens.
Posted By: Surfer88 Re: Moving forward - 10/14/12 02:45 AM
RQ, how are you?
Posted By: karmasrose Re: Moving forward - 10/14/12 05:31 AM
I would like to know as well. We know things have been very hard because of his recent behavior.
Posted By: fifteenyears Re: Moving forward - 10/14/12 04:40 PM
RQ,

I have been catching up on your thread and it breaks my heart that kiss just does not get it. SunnyD mentioned something about her H not being able to be the friendly guy at work. I feel the same way. I used to be the social butterfly and talk to everyone. I used to plan happy hours and parties...not anymore. This isn't even something that Mr. XVY asked me to do, this is something I know I have to do to protect my husband and marriage.

I wish you the best and am praying for you. Recovery is hard but it should not be this painful. You have already been through enough pain. If kiss is not willing to give you his all, then I would not except anything.

Stay strong!!!!
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Moving forward - 10/14/12 08:27 PM
Originally Posted By: fifteenyears
RQ,

I have been catching up on your thread and it breaks my heart that kiss just does not get it. SunnyD mentioned something about her H not being able to be the friendly guy at work. I feel the same way. I used to be the social butterfly and talk to everyone. I used to plan happy hours and parties...not anymore. This isn't even something that Mr. XVY asked me to do, this is something I know I have to do to protect my husband and marriage.

I wish you the best and am praying for you. Recovery is hard but it should not be this painful. You have already been through enough pain. If kiss is not willing to give you his all, then I would not except anything.

Stay strong!!!!


Recovery really is an all or nothing proposition, isn't it?! You either commit to the whole plan or your chances are worse than slim to none.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 10/23/12 06:58 PM
To all:
Despite my best efforts at getting Kiss to understand what it takes to make a good marriage work, he is still unwilling to make our marriage a safe one for me. I appreciate everyone trying to help make him realize that our family must be a priority, and that protecting our marriage at all costs is what is needed to offer up just compensation for his indiscretions. He's just not getting it. It looks like he never will. I expected to spend my life with him but I cannot live in a marriage where I feel vulnerable, all the time; in one that offers me no peace of mind or assurance that he is a faithful, loving husband. Therefore, I have taken steps to end the marriage. I am very sad, but I am OK. I know that wasn't the perfect wife, but I have changed in the areas I need to and cleaned up my side of the street.I have faith that the kids and I will have a great life!

~RQ
Posted By: karmasrose Re: Moving forward - 10/23/12 08:24 PM
hug

I feel so badly for you, because it was clear to everyone how badly you wanted to give him this second chance. He would go about his merry way and not understand why you were so upset.

Buy the KISS pins? No prob. Hey wait why are you upset?

Text another woman in a friendly manner? Great! ...wait, why are you so upset?!

He doesn't want to change.

Will you be moving this over to the divorce board, or will you not post here about your situation in case he may be reading?
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 10/23/12 08:36 PM
Karma, thank you. I will not be posting. Just wanted to give an update and thanks to all who have helped me tremendously.

~RQ
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Moving forward - 10/23/12 08:51 PM
Originally Posted By: karmasrose
hug

I feel so badly for you, because it was clear to everyone how badly you wanted to give him this second chance. He would go about his merry way and not understand why you were so upset.

Buy the KISS pins? No prob. Hey wait why are you upset?

Text another woman in a friendly manner? Great! ...wait, why are you so upset?!

He doesn't want to change.

Will you be moving this over to the divorce board, or will you not post here about your situation in case he may be reading?


I second this. It's sad to me when a wayward is afforded such grace and opportunity but turns it down by insisting on doing things the same old way (which is what led to the bad state of the marriage to begin with).

RQ, you WILL be OK!
Posted By: Neak Re: Moving forward - 10/23/12 10:59 PM
Thanks for the update. {{{{RQ}}}}
Posted By: JenniferVoyager Re: Moving forward - 10/24/12 01:39 AM
Best of luck to you, RQ, you've shown grace and patience and you and your children will thrive through this as well. Peace to you...
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 10/24/12 01:48 AM
Thanks Jen, same to you smile
Posted By: TheLongRun Re: Moving forward - 10/28/12 03:28 AM
RQ, you will do well on your own with you children, as you have done before. I admire your strength and perseverence, most of all your grace with which you have handled your situation. You are a very strong person, and you've recognized for yourself when you've had enough. Think of how much stronger you will be when you are away from your WS's hurtful lovebusting behavior.

May peace and love be with you and your family.

IARTQ
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 10/28/12 05:09 AM
Thank you, IARTQ.
Posted By: karmasrose Re: Moving forward - 10/30/12 04:37 AM
We're all pray ing for you right now.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 10/30/12 11:29 AM
Thank you, karma.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Moving forward - 11/03/12 04:08 AM
Are you exchanging romantic text messages with your ex husband?
Posted By: unwritten Re: Moving forward - 11/03/12 09:48 PM
HDW, RQ is in Plan B. You posting on her thread in this manner is a way for Kiss to slip through the cracks and get to her, whether it was his intention or not. I am no Plan B expert but it doesn't seem appropriate.
Posted By: Fireproof Re: Moving forward - 11/03/12 10:53 PM
Locking thread for OP's protection.


*****Thread unlocked at member's request************
*******************JustUss**************************
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 01/27/13 02:58 PM
Hello everyone, Kiss and I have been doing really well. We have been trying to get in those 15 hours and meet each other's needs. Kiss has been locking up his boundaries tight.

We have run into a conflict though. Long story short. For the last year or so, I was planning on going on a trip to Cancun for my 40th birthday. My Mom went and booked the ticket but Kiss does want me to go. I'm not happy about it but can understand to a point why. Yes, I am feeling resentful about it. After all, he went away for a 3 day bachelor party last year that I wasn't happy about. I would be with my parents and DD17 who is graduating in a few months. So my Mom, got credit for the ticket at least and now I'm not going frown I feel if I understood better his reasons, my resentment might not be so bad. And if we can come to some alternative solution, I might not feel like I'm getting the short end here. But he has refused to discuss it more or come to a solution that I feel good about.

The other problem is that when we were discussing this , Kiss said that this is why he doesn't complain to me about something. Because he knows "how you get". I told him that was a huge DJ and that he needs to discuss things with me if he is not happy. After all, that is how his affair started. He was unhappy and didn't tell me. I feel like, once again, the ground that I thought was sturdy is actually shaky and that scares me.
Posted By: kerala Re: Moving forward - 01/27/13 04:35 PM
Hi Rocketqueen,

First of all, congrats on your milestone year! What a wonderful present from your parents. Certainly I can understand your disappointment. frown

Given that MB strongly discourages separate vacations, I am not sure what would be accomplished by Kiss detailing his objections for you. It would seem to be pretty basic, no? If your point is to reach an agreement where you would go without him, surely you can see that that would be unadvisable? I think you know that going on this trip, especially at this point in your Recovery, is problematic.

The resentment is understandable, because you have not yet found an acceptable substitute, and KISS should be looking for other ways to celebrate your birthday. But, so should you. When can the two of you go away on a similar trip?

Getting into an MB-state-of-mind has its challenges. Taking a vacation with your parents and daughter for your birthday would seem to be wonderful to 99% of people. But it doesn't seem to be in line with MB principles, does it?

You know the old saying - in for a penny, in for a pound? I think this counts as one of those times.

ETA: my response is (mostly) predicated on the assumption that KISS cannot go with you.

Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 01/27/13 04:49 PM
Originally Posted By: kerala
Hi Rocketqueen,

First of all, congrats on your milestone year! ]Thank you! What a wonderful present from your parents. Certainly I can understand your disappointment. frown

Given that MB strongly discourages separate vacations, I am not sure what would be accomplished by Kiss detailing his objections for you. It would seem to be pretty basic, no? If your point is to reach an agreement where you would go without him, surely you can see that that would be unadvisable? I think you know that going on this trip, especially at this point in your Recovery, is problematic.


Where I stand right now, I am quite disappointed that I can't go. In fact, I don't like being told that I can't go. My taker is pissed about it. I feel like I have not done anything dishonest or untrustworthy, so why can't I go? I'm not saying that this is right but just how I feel. In my head, I know that it would hamper recovery. Though my resentment seems to be doing that already.

Originally Posted By: Kerala
The resentment is understandable, because you have not yet found an acceptable substitute, and KISS should be looking for other ways to celebrate your birthday. But, so should you. When can the two of you go away on a similar trip?


It is unlikely we will be able to go on a similar trip. We can't afford it and are looking to move this summer, so money will be tight for awhile.

Originally Posted By: Kerala

Getting into an MB-state-of-mind has its challenges. Taking a vacation with your parents and daughter for your birthday would seem to be wonderful to 99% of people. But it doesn't seem to be in line with MB principles, does it?

You know the old saying - in for a penny, in for a pound? I think this counts as one of those times.


Thanks, I'm working on it. I don't think I realized how much IB I have. I am trying to change that and will have to remember to look at Kiss' perspective before I consider doing something.
Posted By: Mae_1 Re: Moving forward - 01/27/13 06:24 PM
I contacted the radio show about a similar situation. Parents paying for all inclusive beach vacation that dh didn't want to go on. In this case he was resentfully agreeing to me going on my own.
Dr Harley said that memorable moments need to be spent with ones spouse. He gave up camping ( that he loved) because Joyce hates it. The point is they found something else to do together that they both enjoy.
Dr Harley told me that because it was my husband not wanting to go the onus was on him to try to come up with a solution where he would be happy going. Barring that, we both would have to come up with alternate suggestions that would be mutually agreeable. The key being to think outside the box.
He suggested a notebook for each of us to aid in brainstorming and that the conversation would have to be pleasant. No raised voices.
My sister heard the program and started to follow this advice and her husband is repaying the respect she is showing him( taking into account his feelings) by being more open to negotiate.
Posted By: kerala Re: Moving forward - 01/27/13 06:30 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen


Where I stand right now, I am quite disappointed that I can't go. In fact, I don't like being told that I can't go. My taker is pissed about it. I feel like I have not done anything dishonest or untrustworthy, so why can't I go? I'm not saying that this is right but just how I feel. In my head, I know that it would hamper recovery. Though my resentment seems to be doing that already.
something.


Completely, 100% understandable!

I am so sorry the two of you would be unlikely to swing a similar vacation on your own.

Would your parents be at all amenable to postponing their very generous and lovely gift to a time when KISS COULD accompany all of you? Would it be more feasible if all you had to pay for was his outlay?

ETA: Or, would your parents by willing to cover the cost (for you) of a more modest but equally enjoyable trip for your and KISS to take. You could frame it as a b-day/marriage building present. Perhaps a bit out there smile....just trying to think of ways for you BOTH to get what you want.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Moving forward - 01/27/13 06:35 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
My Mom went and booked the ticket but Kiss does want me to go. I'm not happy about it but can understand to a point why. Yes, I am feeling resentful about it. ..

...I feel if I understood better his reasons, my resentment might not be so bad. And if we can come to some alternative solution, I might not feel like I'm getting the short end here. But he has refused to discuss it more or come to a solution that I feel good about.

The other problem is that when we were discussing this , Kiss said that this is why he doesn't complain to me about something. Because he knows "how you get". I told him that was a huge DJ and that he needs to discuss things with me if he is not happy. After all, that is how his affair started. He was unhappy and didn't tell me. I feel like, once again, the ground that I thought was sturdy is actually shaky and that scares me.


He did tell you that he is unhappy about this and doesn't want you to go, and you are sulking. You are showing your resentment all over your face, so from what you are saying here, he was right to fear telling you that he did not want you to go.

You can't have it both ways. You can't want openness and honesty from him and then at the same time sulk and act moodily and make him even more unhappy that he spoke at all. He is now refusing to discuss it more because you have already made discussion of this issue unpleasant. You've turned this into a fight, which has been destructive to your marriage these past few days, as fighting always is.

A trip like this would be wrong and harmful to your marriage. Kiss does not need to have a deep discussion with you to explain why he feels unhappy about it. It's wrong, and he did the correct thing to ask you not to go. It doesn't matter what you each did in the past; you know now that some of what you did was bad for your marriage, so why would you want to keep doing it?

You have made it unsafe for Kiss to discuss this topic, so if you want to come to an agreement about some other kind of celebration it is going to be up to you make to make some suggestions and make it clear that negotiations will be safe and pleasant, and that Kiss will not be punished for making his feelings known. Of course he's not going to go there again the way this has gone so far!

It's time to grow up, stop sulking and let this drop. You are in danger of using your resentment to punish him because you think he owes you because of his affair.

Ask me how I know this.

Yours,

The Resentment and Sulking Queen.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Moving forward - 01/27/13 06:38 PM
Originally Posted By: kerala

Getting into an MB-state-of-mind has its challenges. Taking a vacation with your parents and daughter for your birthday would seem to be wonderful to 99% of people. But it doesn't seem to be in line with MB principles, does it?



Good advice on this thread! I agree that 99% of people would think this would be a great idea, because most people have bad marriages. And this is one of the reasons why. I cringe when people tell me they are taking separate vacations because I know the harm they are inflicting on their marriage. Taking separate vacations is not "in-line" with having a great marriage.

RQ, it is hard to break bad marriage habits and I understand your disappointment. I figure if *I* can learn to abandon independent behavior, then anyone can. There is no activity, no nothing, that can compensate for a happy, romantic marriage. When your marriage gets stronger, you won't even consider taking a separate vacation because you won't want to be away from him.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Moving forward - 01/27/13 06:39 PM
Amen to Sugarcane!!!
Posted By: LongWayFromHome Re: Moving forward - 01/27/13 07:30 PM
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
... SNIP.... When your marriage gets stronger, you won't even consider taking a separate vacation because you won't want to be away from him.


Yes, yes, YES! That's where we are...finally. We don't like the idea at all even being apart on a weekend day for a few hours, much less a few days. When recovery finally takes over and the "new" marriage takes its place over the "old" marriage, you are absolutely hooked on being together, just for the sheer enjoyment of each others company.

People in our lives will bring up the occasional spousal absence and say that "it's so nice to have the house to myself for a change." And don't we get "tired of being together." We used to feel that way, too, but we haven't felt that way in the two years we have been in recovery. We never want to go back to what we had before.

That your H is up front and honest with you is great, even though it means it will hamper your ability to do some of the things you enjoy doing. Once you find new things to do together, you will likely not miss the old independent ways of doing things.
Posted By: armymama Re: Moving forward - 01/27/13 11:25 PM
I agree. My H and I love being together.

AM
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 01/28/13 01:05 AM
Originally Posted By: Deborah_1
I contacted the radio show about a similar situation. Parents paying for all inclusive beach vacation that dh didn't want to go on. In this case he was resentfully agreeing to me going on my own.
Dr Harley said that memorable moments need to be spent with ones spouse. He gave up camping ( that he loved) because Joyce hates it. The point is they found something else to do together that they both enjoy.
Dr Harley told me that because it was my husband not wanting to go the onus was on him to try to come up with a solution where he would be happy going. Barring that, we both would have to come up with alternate suggestions that would be mutually agreeable. The key being to think outside the box.
He suggested a notebook for each of us to aid in brainstorming and that the conversation would have to be pleasant. No raised voices.
My sister heard the program and started to follow this advice and her husband is repaying the respect she is showing him( taking into account his feelings) by being more open to negotiate.


Deborah1, thank you for sharing your story with me. Earlier today, we were trying to come up with alternate solutions. But Kiss continued to talk about how I screwed up and that I should just go or I won't be happy. I realize that I screwed up. What we need to do now is come up with an agreeable solution that we are both happy with. I am open to negotiation. But right now, I just feel like I'm losing out.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 01/28/13 01:11 AM
Originally Posted By: kerala
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen


Where I stand right now, I am quite disappointed that I can't go. In fact, I don't like being told that I can't go. My taker is pissed about it. I feel like I have not done anything dishonest or untrustworthy, so why can't I go? I'm not saying that this is right but just how I feel. In my head, I know that it would hamper recovery. Though my resentment seems to be doing that already.
something.


Completely, 100% understandable!

I am so sorry the two of you would be unlikely to swing a similar vacation on your own.

Would your parents be at all amenable to postponing their very generous and lovely gift to a time when KISS COULD accompany all of you? Would it be more feasible if all you had to pay for was his outlay?

ETA: Or, would your parents by willing to cover the cost (for you) of a more modest but equally enjoyable trip for your and KISS to take. You could frame it as a b-day/marriage building present. Perhaps a bit out there smile....just trying to think of ways for you BOTH to get what you want.


Well, my mom had already bought my plane ticket. She was able to get a credit for me (which would cost me $180 re-booking fee) to use in the next year. So at least it wasn't a complete loss.

My parents and Kiss are not ready yet to be on vacation together as there is still some hard feelings there. Though, my parents used to foot the bill for family vacations in the past and we always had a great time together!

I think the only solution is to plan a vacation for kiss and I sometime in the next year. We just need to find the funds and see if kiss can get time off from work, bth nearly impossible feats.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 01/28/13 01:19 AM
Originally Posted By: SugarCane
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
My Mom went and booked the ticket but Kiss does want me to go. I'm not happy about it but can understand to a point why. Yes, I am feeling resentful about it. ..

...I feel if I understood better his reasons, my resentment might not be so bad. And if we can come to some alternative solution, I might not feel like I'm getting the short end here. But he has refused to discuss it more or come to a solution that I feel good about.

The other problem is that when we were discussing this , Kiss said that this is why he doesn't complain to me about something. Because he knows "how you get". I told him that was a huge DJ and that he needs to discuss things with me if he is not happy. After all, that is how his affair started. He was unhappy and didn't tell me. I feel like, once again, the ground that I thought was sturdy is actually shaky and that scares me.


He did tell you that he is unhappy about this and doesn't want you to go, and you are sulking. You are showing your resentment all over your face, so from what you are saying here, he was right to fear telling you that he did not want you to go.

You can't have it both ways. You can't want openness and honesty from him and then at the same time sulk and act moodily and make him even more unhappy that he spoke at all. He is now refusing to discuss it more because you have already made discussion of this issue unpleasant. You've turned this into a fight, which has been destructive to your marriage these past few days, as fighting always is.

A trip like this would be wrong and harmful to your marriage. Kiss does not need to have a deep discussion with you to explain why he feels unhappy about it. It's wrong, and he did the correct thing to ask you not to go. It doesn't matter what you each did in the past; you know now that some of what you did was bad for your marriage, so why would you want to keep doing it?

You have made it unsafe for Kiss to discuss this topic, so if you want to come to an agreement about some other kind of celebration it is going to be up to you make to make some suggestions and make it clear that negotiations will be safe and pleasant, and that Kiss will not be punished for making his feelings known. Of course he's not going to go there again the way this has gone so far!

It's time to grow up, stop sulking and let this drop. You are in danger of using your resentment to punish him because you think he owes you because of his affair.

Ask me how I know this.

Yours,

The Resentment and Sulking Queen.


Thanks, sugarcane for not sugar-coating it! LOL I don't disagree with you and I realize that I need to change my attitude about this. I shudder at the thought of kiss feeling he will have to be on the defensive sharing with me his thoughts about something.

I refuse to plan my own birthday celebration though I am open to ideas from Kiss. wink
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 01/28/13 01:21 AM
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: kerala

Getting into an MB-state-of-mind has its challenges. Taking a vacation with your parents and daughter for your birthday would seem to be wonderful to 99% of people. But it doesn't seem to be in line with MB principles, does it?



Good advice on this thread! I agree that 99% of people would think this would be a great idea, because most people have bad marriages. And this is one of the reasons why. I cringe when people tell me they are taking separate vacations because I know the harm they are inflicting on their marriage. Taking separate vacations is not "in-line" with having a great marriage.

RQ, it is hard to break bad marriage habits and I understand your disappointment. I figure if *I* can learn to abandon independent behavior, then anyone can. There is no activity, no nothing, that can compensate for a happy, romantic marriage. When your marriage gets stronger, you won't even consider taking a separate vacation because you won't want to be away from him.


Melody, it is hard to break these habits. I think it has to do with the fact that I have had to act independently in the past. I was also a single Mom for many years .It's something that I will have to work on.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 01/28/13 01:28 AM
Originally Posted By: LongWayFromHome
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
... SNIP.... When your marriage gets stronger, you won't even consider taking a separate vacation because you won't want to be away from him.


Yes, yes, YES! That's where we are...finally. We don't like the idea at all even being apart on a weekend day for a few hours, much less a few days. When recovery finally takes over and the "new" marriage takes its place over the "old" marriage, you are absolutely hooked on being together, just for the sheer enjoyment of each others company.

People in our lives will bring up the occasional spousal absence and say that "it's so nice to have the house to myself for a change." And don't we get "tired of being together." We used to feel that way, too, but we haven't felt that way in the two years we have been in recovery. We never want to go back to what we had before.

That your H is up front and honest with you is great, even though it means it will hamper your ability to do some of the things you enjoy doing. Once you find new things to do together, you will likely not miss the old independent ways of doing things.


LWFH and AM, soooo not there yet. I don't mind when he has to work at night. I like having the house to myself. Another thing with the trip, is that if it was him going away with his parents, I wouldn't mind a bit. Not that I wouldn't miss him but I wouldn't be upset if he went. So, I guess I am not "there" yet. Recovery is still a difficult work in progress.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Moving forward - 01/28/13 01:31 AM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen

Melody, it is hard to break these habits. I think it has to do with the fact that I have had to act independently in the past. I was also a single Mom for many years .It's something that I will have to work on.


Girl, believe me, I feel your pain. I do!! crazy It was the hardest thing for me to do. But the payoff in stopping independent behavior is worth 100x the things you gave up. Now that you know what it means, you will just have to mark any independent behavior off your calendar. Using the POJA will become a habit and you will be surprised at how much tension leaves your marriage because of it.
Posted By: LongWayFromHome Re: Moving forward - 01/28/13 03:19 AM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Originally Posted By: LongWayFromHome
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
... SNIP.... When your marriage gets stronger, you won't even consider taking a separate vacation because you won't want to be away from him.


Yes, yes, YES! That's where we are...finally. We don't like the idea at all even being apart on a weekend day for a few hours, much less a few days. When recovery finally takes over and the "new" marriage takes its place over the "old" marriage, you are absolutely hooked on being together, just for the sheer enjoyment of each others company.

People in our lives will bring up the occasional spousal absence and say that "it's so nice to have the house to myself for a change." And don't we get "tired of being together." We used to feel that way, too, but we haven't felt that way in the two years we have been in recovery. We never want to go back to what we had before.

That your H is up front and honest with you is great, even though it means it will hamper your ability to do some of the things you enjoy doing. Once you find new things to do together, you will likely not miss the old independent ways of doing things.


LWFH and AM, soooo not there yet. I don't mind when he has to work at night. I like having the house to myself. Another thing with the trip, is that if it was him going away with his parents, I wouldn't mind a bit. Not that I wouldn't miss him but I wouldn't be upset if he went. So, I guess I am not "there" yet. Recovery is still a difficult work in progress.


RQ, it took us a long long time to get to this point, and there were many times I thought I would never be able to love my H again. I had no feeling of any sort for a while for him; it's as though I didn't care whether he lived or died for a while but just kept plodding on doing the program as best as I could manage.

The pain lessened after the first year. My H slipped a few times on his EPs and that had me preparing for my escape plan each time.

My H became a changed man. He was the IB king for many years and has vastly changed in this area. He was humble and repentant and gentle with me. Humility--meaning he pretty much bared his soul to me a few times instead of trying to act like he didn't care. He showed me that he cared very much even when he knew I didn't and could have used this care against him.

I understand where you are...really. During the first year and a half, the biggest reason I really wanted us not to be separated wasn't because I wanted to be with him; it was more because I was afraid I'd sink into sadness over his A. At least when he was with me, he could comfort me with his care and love. If he wasn't around (at work,) the thoughts would overwhelm me and I would feel that resentment and even some hatred rising up. As long as we were together, those negative feelings could be more or less controlled.

I'm amazed we finally got to this point.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Moving forward - 01/28/13 03:47 AM
...the biggest reason I really wanted us not to be separated wasn't because I wanted to be with him; it was more because I was afraid I'd sink into sadness over his A.

Exactly! A great first-person testimonial, LWFH!

The best balm for the wounds of infidelity is the care and affection of the remorseful FWS!
Posted By: Mae_1 Re: Moving forward - 01/28/13 04:08 AM
I totally understand the feeling of disappointment and losing out. It seems preposterous to give up an all-expense paid trip, especially if you are used to independent behavior in your marriage (as i am) probably even more so after the stress you have been through this past year.

However, attaining a romantic and fulfilling marriage is worth all the vacations in the world. I am looking at losing out on my amazing vacation as a stepping stone to the kind of relationship I crave. That hope really quells my resentment.

What I've been doing ( pushing my own agenda) hasn't been working. When I look back at losing out on this trip, I hope to see it as a pivotal turning point in our relationship where we started working together towards mutually satisfying goals.
Posted By: pokerface Re: Moving forward - 01/28/13 03:27 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
For the last year or so, I was planning on going on a trip to Cancun for my 40th birthday. My Mom went and booked the ticket but Kiss does want me to go.




RQ. You have been here long enough to be familiar with POJA and IB.


You say that you have been planning this for a year or longer and it is just coming to a head now after your Mother has pushed the button?
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 01/28/13 05:34 PM
Originally Posted By: Deborah_1
I totally understand the feeling of disappointment and losing out. It seems preposterous to give up an all-expense paid trip, especially if you are used to independent behavior in your marriage (as i am) probably even more so after the stress you have been through this past year.

However, attaining a romantic and fulfilling marriage is worth all the vacations in the world. I am looking at losing out on my amazing vacation as a stepping stone to the kind of relationship I crave. That hope really quells my resentment.

What I've been doing ( pushing my own agenda) hasn't been working. When I look back at losing out on this trip, I hope to see it as a pivotal turning point in our relationship where we started working together towards mutually satisfying goals.


I think part of the problem is that I feel like I am losing out. When I tried to discuss an alternative he continues to bash me over my screw-up (which I have admitted to and apologized for).
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 01/28/13 05:56 PM
Originally Posted By: pokerface
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
For the last year or so, I was planning on going on a trip to Cancun for my 40th birthday. My Mom went and booked the ticket but Kiss does want me to go.




RQ. You have been here long enough to be familiar with POJA and IB.


You say that you have been planning this for a year or longer and it is just coming to a head now after your Mother has pushed the button?


Pokerface, being as this trip was something that kiss has known about for a long time, I never realized he had an issue about it until it was booked. That was when he said he didn't want me to go. This seems to be a problem of his. Not telling me how he is really feeling. I told him that he needs to be honest with me or how would I know? In fact, I was smacked with the "I have been unhappy for a long time" just before I found out about his affair. He didn't tell me how he felt, so he became emotionally withdrawn from me and emotionally connected to a co-worker. Can we say TRIGGER?! To me, if this is something that he is still doing, then how do I know that there is a problem in our marriage and that another affair won't happen? And even after I have told him that that is a DJ and unfair to me, he still admits in his own postings that he regrets telling me anything.

I understand that I need to stop making decisions on my own. I won't call it IB because if I do anything, it involves me and the kids. I'm rarely ever without them. No free passes for this mommy! LOL

As far as POJA goes:
In marriage, your interests and your spouses interests should be considered simultaneously. One of you should not suffer for the benefit of the other, even willingly, because when either of you suffer, one is gaining at the other's expense. If you both care about each other, you will not let the other suffer so that you can have what you want. When you are willing to let the other sacrifice for you, you are momentarily lapsing into a state of selfishness that must somehow be corrected before damage is done. The Policy of Joint Agreement provides that correction.

Right now I feel like I am suffering for his benefit. So I have tried to move us to Successful Negotiation. But, here I am faced with his anger and disrespect. So, I have let it drop for now since he is unwilling to negotiate an enthusiastic agreement that we will BOTH be happy with. The sooner we can move past this, the better for our marriage.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Moving forward - 01/28/13 06:05 PM
When I tried to discuss an alternative he continues to bash me over my screw-up

I'm having a little trouble deciphering your tenses here - "tried" suggests past, while "continues" implies present - but if "bash" is the best you can do to represent his actions (criticize, complain about, emphasize) it's an indicator that you and kiss (I've detected the same from him) are more invested in playing to the audience out here than in properly dealing with each other.

Wouldn't this have been more helpful to report:

When I try to discuss an alternative he refers to my screw-up, and I pull the discussion back to what we can address - future actions - and away from failures in the past.

There was a Family Circus cartoon some years ago, in which Mom broke up a fight, and made the mistake of asking what started it. The next panel had Dad walking in, with balloons from the kids saying "But he did..." , and "Before that, she.....", and from Mom saying, "We're making progress, we're all the way back to last month!"

And I swear, if you're reading this saying, as I know damn well you are, "Why doesn't that idiot NG go yell at kiss, since he started this?", you have made my point!
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 01/28/13 08:16 PM
NG, thank you for cleaning up my English smile I say "tried" because I tried to discuss this with him yesterday but he criticized and complained (and continues to do so) while I am trying to move us to the next step.

Thank you for making the point on his thread as well, that we need to move on instead of continuing in damaging circles.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Moving forward - 01/28/13 08:34 PM
Thank you for making the point on his thread as well

Fairness is my watchword - I strive to be obnoxious to EVERYONE!
Posted By: pokerface Re: Moving forward - 01/29/13 12:24 AM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen


Pokerface, being as this trip was something that kiss has known about for a long time, I never realized he had an issue about it until it was booked. That was when he said he didn't want me to go.


Did you ever ask Kiss how he felt about the trip? Asking him would be the first step in POJA.

Waiting for him to speak up is not POJA. I think you now realize this but I wanted to address your post to me.






Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen

This seems to be a problem of his. Not telling me how he is really feeling. I told him that he needs to be honest with me or how would I know? In fact, I was smacked with the "I have been unhappy for a long time" just before I found out about his affair.



Ok. I know that you know that was a bunch of fogbabble that all waywards pull.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Moving forward - 01/29/13 12:56 AM
RQ,


Congratulations on your graduation!


What graduation?


Graduation from "Help, my husband is being a turd!" to "Let's help you keep your side of the street clean!"
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 01/29/13 01:03 AM
Originally Posted By: pokerface



Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen

This seems to be a problem of his. Not telling me how he is really feeling. I told him that he needs to be honest with me or how would I know? In fact, I was smacked with the "I have been unhappy for a long time" just before I found out about his affair.



Ok. I know that you know that was a bunch of fogbabble that all waywards pull.




I do, but I also believe that this is a lingering problem that HE needs to clean up.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 01/29/13 01:06 AM
Originally Posted By: HoldHerHand
RQ,


Congratulations on your graduation!


What graduation?


Graduation from "Help, my husband is being a turd!" to "Let's help you keep your side of the street clean!"


Lol, thanks HHH! yes, I have work to do, I just needed it brought to my attention wink
Posted By: pokerface Re: Moving forward - 01/29/13 01:30 AM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Originally Posted By: pokerface



Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen

This seems to be a problem of his. Not telling me how he is really feeling. I told him that he needs to be honest with me or how would I know? In fact, I was smacked with the "I have been unhappy for a long time" just before I found out about his affair.



Ok. I know that you know that was a bunch of fogbabble that all waywards pull.




I do, but I also believe that this is a lingering problem that HE needs to clean up.



I know RQ and my very own WH was also guilty of this. I think it was part manipulation tactic.

My solution? Ask my WH about EVERYTHING including silly and stupid things like "Do you think I should call the window cleaners?" Amazing how his point of view is often completely different from mine. But I never knew until I started asking because he never told me unless I asked.

It took awhile...but he feels safe in telling me things now because we have learned POJA. It played a huge part in turning my marriage around...but I had to be the driving force in the beginning.

Good Luck to you. smile
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 01/29/13 01:58 AM
Originally Posted By: pokerface
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Originally Posted By: pokerface



Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen

This seems to be a problem of his. Not telling me how he is really feeling. I told him that he needs to be honest with me or how would I know? In fact, I was smacked with the "I have been unhappy for a long time" just before I found out about his affair.



Ok. I know that you know that was a bunch of fogbabble that all waywards pull.




I do, but I also believe that this is a lingering problem that HE needs to clean up.



I know RQ and my very own WH was also guilty of this. I think it was part manipulation tactic.

My solution? Ask my WH about EVERYTHING including silly and stupid things like "Do you think I should call the window cleaners?" Amazing how his point of view is often completely different from mine. But I never knew until I started asking because he never told me unless I asked.

It took awhile...but he feels safe in telling me things now because we have learned POJA. It played a huge part in turning my marriage around...but I had to be the driving force in the beginning.

Good Luck to you. smile


Thanks, great advice! I'll start doing that.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Moving forward - 01/29/13 02:11 AM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Originally Posted By: HoldHerHand
RQ,


Congratulations on your graduation!


What graduation?


Graduation from "Help, my husband is being a turd!" to "Let's help you keep your side of the street clean!"


Lol, thanks HHH! yes, I have work to do, I just needed it brought to my attention wink




Do you remember before, how you were worried about punishing KISS for being honest?


Now it's time to think about that.
Posted By: black_raven Re: Moving forward - 01/29/13 05:23 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
I think the only solution is to plan a vacation for kiss and I sometime in the next year. We just need to find the funds and see if kiss can get time off from work, bth nearly impossible feats.


Did he ever sell those KISS pins?
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 01/29/13 06:44 PM
Originally Posted By: black_raven
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
I think the only solution is to plan a vacation for kiss and I sometime in the next year. We just need to find the funds and see if kiss can get time off from work, bth nearly impossible feats.


Did he ever sell those KISS pins?


I know that he sold most of them. I don't know if the money is still in the paypal account or not.

Good question

ETA: I should clarify that he sold the ones that he didn't need.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 01/31/13 02:43 PM
Interestingly enough, yesterday's radio program was about successful negotiation. I'm still hoping for a win-win here.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Moving forward - 02/04/13 06:05 PM
Quote:
I'm still hoping for a win-win here.

And yet today....

Quote:
Mel, even (LongHaul's) posting here directly to his wife is manipulation. He is not looking for help. He is posting to say "SEE I'M DOING WHAT YOU ASKED! NOW GET OFF MY BACK AND LET ME GET BACK TO THE WAY THINGS WERE" - BP

He reminds me of someone else I know... - RQ

I might suggest that posting a gratuitous dj for MB-public consumption would NOT be the optimal way to engender a spirit of cooperation from Kiss.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 02/04/13 06:28 PM
I was referring to the way Kiss used to post to me on his thread and that it is another manipulative tactic on LongHaul's part. I see many similarities between him and the way Kiss used to be.

I didn't mean it to come across as A DJ to kiss. Kiss is rarely involved on the boards here but his experience here might help another WH if LH wants to visit his thread.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 02/06/13 07:17 PM
Well, for some reason I am going through a phase right now of woulda-shoulds-coulda's. Too late for regrets, I know. Just wish I had done things differently. Think I would be in a better spot in my healing than I am right now.

Still dealing with triggers. That d&*n car is still in my driveway. We still owe money on it. So, it has cost us money on a "new" car and we need money to get rid of this car. Which he still drives because the new car has no heat. Frustrating.


I'm not looking for solutions. Just feel like I am still slogging through my personal recovery and don't feel like I will ever feel "healed". Healed...what a funny word. As if someone can really heal from 5 months of traumatizing events.
Venting over
Moving forward
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Moving forward - 02/06/13 07:38 PM
...I am going through a phase right now of woulda-shoulds-coulda's. Too late for regrets..Think I would be in a better spot in my healing than I am right now...Still dealing with triggers. That d&*n car is still in my driveway...Just feel like I am still slogging through my personal recovery and don't feel like I will ever feel "healed".

From your epilogue: Psalms 147:3 He heals the brokenhearted and binds up their wounds.

From today's RC Mass: Hebrews 12:5-6 My son, do not disdain the discipline of the Lord or lose heart when reproved by him; for whom the Lord loves, he disciplines; he scourges every son he acknowledges.

So maybe your recourse is a prayer that He will love you just a tad less?

Hang in there, RQ!
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 02/06/13 07:59 PM
Yes, I actually made it a point to go to church this past Sunday because I desperately felt I needed to be there in His presence for some healing. It had been awhile since I've gone. So love me a bit less and perhaps stop testing my strength, already? Hmmm..

So many things are beyond my control. Still a work in progress trying to realize what is and what is not and letting go of those that aren't.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Moving forward - 02/06/13 08:51 PM
What would you have done differently? I am in a phase of woulda-shoulda-coulda too. More, shoulda just divorced and then I'd be done with all this by now and moving on. But since I did not take that course of action, also shoulda done XWZ differently in regards to the plan.

Not that I am about looking in the rearview mirror. It is much smaller than the front window for a reason. But I do think in this case it can identify things that might be lacking NOW. Just because I didn't require H to do counseling with the coaching center right after DDay, for instance, does not mean I can't require it now I guess. Unless, at some point, EP's become demands after a certain timeframe. In which case I'm sure NG or someone will call me out on it.

Just wondering what you are specifically thinking you did not do that you should have. Perhaps something to investigate with regards to your current dissatisfaction.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 02/06/13 09:54 PM
Originally Posted By: unwritten
What would you have done differently? I am in a phase of woulda-shoulda-coulda too. More, shoulda just divorced and then I'd be done with all this by now and moving on. But since I did not take that course of action, also shoulda done XWZ differently in regards to the plan.


We must be psychically connected, somehow. LOL. Honestly, it's stupid but has mostly to do with my exposure, how I handled Plan B, that kind of stuff. Now that I have been here awhile, I realize that there was so much more that I could have done or done differently. Things that would make me feel better about the "now".

I think the triggers that I still deal with, the restriction of me being able to talk about the A and the damage it has done to me as well as the lack of our ability to follow the program exactly are all conspiring against me. I'm frustrated and restless
Posted By: pokerface Re: Moving forward - 02/07/13 12:34 AM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen


Honestly, it's stupid but has mostly to do with my exposure, how I handled Plan B, that kind of stuff. Now that I have been here awhile, I realize that there was so much more that I could have done or done differently. Things that would make me feel better about the "now".

I think the triggers that I still deal with, the restriction of me being able to talk about the A and the damage it has done to me as well as the lack of our ability to follow the program exactly are all conspiring against me. I'm frustrated and restless


RQ you can't change the past. You can only control how you do things in the future.


I remember how hard it was for me to stop talking about the affair etc, etc. I had to make the choice to stop looking back at hurtful things and to start seeing the good things happening today. I had to make the choice to look forward. If I can do it, I honestly believe that anyone who "chooses to" can do it also.

Tomorrow is another day and another chance to get it right.



ETA: My list of mistakes and things I coulda/shoulda/woulda was about a mile long. It didn't matter once I started to do things the MB way. Hang in there.

Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 02/07/13 01:03 AM
Thanks, poker face. I know I need to try harder. It's still a daily struggle and it shouldn't be.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Moving forward - 02/07/13 01:24 AM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Originally Posted By: unwritten
What would you have done differently? I am in a phase of woulda-shoulda-coulda too. More, shoulda just divorced and then I'd be done with all this by now and moving on. But since I did not take that course of action, also shoulda done XWZ differently in regards to the plan.


We must be psychically connected, somehow. LOL. Honestly, it's stupid but has mostly to do with my exposure, how I handled Plan B, that kind of stuff. Now that I have been here awhile, I realize that there was so much more that I could have done or done differently. Things that would make me feel better about the "now".

I think the triggers that I still deal with, the restriction of me being able to talk about the A and the damage it has done to me as well as the lack of our ability to follow the program exactly are all conspiring against me. I'm frustrated and restless


Sister, you just got dude moving in the right direction... things are JUST NOW STARTING.

You just had your first major POJA dispute...


Quit dragging that chain. Pick it up, and do as you have retitled your thread; MOVE FORWARD.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 02/07/13 02:17 AM
Originally Posted By: HoldHerHand


Sister, you just got dude moving in the right direction... things are JUST NOW STARTING.

You just had your first major POJA dispute...


Quit dragging that chain. Pick it up, and do as you have retitled your thread; MOVE FORWARD.


God, HHH, I want to. I really do. But just in the last few days I've had so many triggers that it is ridiculous. For example, the other night kiss brought home wine. He bought Beringers, skank's favorite brand. He is driving around in that car. Today, he didn't call me all day(trigger). I know he is busy getting ready for inventory at the store. Oops, another trigger. And i still wonder if skank will have the audacity to contact him there or if they will run into each other. And so on.


I can't wait to get out of this town. A fresh start, I think, I hope, is what I need. What WE need. It can't happen soon enough for me.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Moving forward - 02/07/13 02:23 AM
Okay, you were triggered. What did you do?

(RQ: This is not an open-book test!)
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 02/07/13 02:36 AM
Well, he apologized about that wine but t"that was all they had". So I got drunk on it lol.

The car has heat, the new one does not. He knows I don't like it. Heck, he knows I don't like it parked in the driveway but I don't want him to freeze. So I deal with it.

I know he is busy at the store, it's not intentional and he forgot his phone today so no, I won't harp on him about that. Not his fault.

So, the answer is I didn't do anything but try to shrug them off and the bad memories that came with them.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Moving forward - 02/07/13 03:21 AM
Let me translate:

The wine - You sacrificed. (Although quite honestly, you get high points for NOT smashing him across the face with the bottle at that "all they had" crap!)

The car - You sacrificed. A car without heat either has a blown circulator blower (which I doubt), or a leaking heater core, or hose. That's why they have auto-parts stores!

The phone - Joint effort from here on out "Do you have your phone?" as he's leaving each day.

RH, RH, RH ! These were NOT innocent triggers. These were failures to exercise care. And if you do not insist on protection, well.......
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Moving forward - 02/07/13 03:36 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Originally Posted By: HoldHerHand


Sister, you just got dude moving in the right direction... things are JUST NOW STARTING.

You just had your first major POJA dispute...


Quit dragging that chain. Pick it up, and do as you have retitled your thread; MOVE FORWARD.


God, HHH, I want to. I really do. But just in the last few days I've had so many triggers that it is ridiculous. For example, the other night kiss brought home wine. He bought Beringers, skank's favorite brand. He is driving around in that car. Today, he didn't call me all day(trigger). I know he is busy getting ready for inventory at the store. Oops, another trigger. And i still wonder if skank will have the audacity to contact him there or if they will run into each other. And so on.


I can't wait to get out of this town. A fresh start, I think, I hope, is what I need. What WE need. It can't happen soon enough for me.


I hope to move soon too.
OM probably had sex with ww in the bed, has been in the marital home and I'm driving the vehicle that they spent a lot of time in together.
I get upset at times but then say, "I can't control her actions" and go on.... But eventually I would like to get rid of the vehicle and out of the house. When I can afford to, get a new bed
Posted By: unwritten Re: Moving forward - 02/07/13 03:44 PM
About moving forward: recently someone said to me "There is a reason a car has a small rearview mirror and a big front window. Because you should be looking forward much more than you look behind." When I start to think of the history (not just the A's but the other things my little devil of resentment want me to remember so that I know H doesn't deserve to be happy!) I actually think of the big car window. LOL. I'm a dork. But it works for me. I think of the big car window and it causes my mind to focus.

I also like to think about the people who inspire me. There are the negative people who carry resentment and bitterness for years, for every thing that has negatively impacted them in their past. Trudge around, crabby face, well you know my dad died when I was 20 and then I didn't get to go to college, and then blah blah blah (this is my FIL, he is 70+ now, so basically he has wasted a LIFEtime because he is bitter that his dad died when he was young and it changed his life plan). Then there are the people who just have sunshine around them, and no matter what negative thing falls into their lap, they take the small silver lining, count their blessings, and live. The latter are the ones that inspire me. Inspire me to BE that person!

But yep its hard. Big front car window.

But not Kiss's car window. That car needs to GO. And that wine situation was absolutely a complete lack of care. COME ON KISS, there was NO OTHER BOTTLE of wine in the whole store? And there are NO OTHER STORES in all of New York for you to get a bottle of wine from? Make sure you are honest about how inconsiderate that is. Then, big window.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 02/07/13 04:22 PM
JK, yes, sometimes you can only do what you can until you can afford to do what you need to
Posted By: BetrayedP Re: Moving forward - 02/07/13 08:35 PM
Hang in there RQ, I'm sure the triggers will get less and less as time goes on. Hope the move comes through quickly.
Posted By: BetrayedP Re: Moving forward - 02/07/13 08:55 PM
Originally Posted By: NeverGuessed
Quote:
I'm still hoping for a win-win here.

And yet today....

Quote:
Mel, even (LongHaul's) posting here directly to his wife is manipulation. He is not looking for help. He is posting to say "SEE I'M DOING WHAT YOU ASKED! NOW GET OFF MY BACK AND LET ME GET BACK TO THE WAY THINGS WERE" - BP


He reminds me of someone else I know... - RQ

I might suggest that posting a gratuitous dj for MB-public consumption would NOT be the optimal way to engender a spirit of cooperation from Kiss.


T/j. NG do you think that was a DJ on my part? I'm struggling with the difference between making a good inference or a DJ. I really think LH is misusing the forum.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Moving forward - 02/07/13 09:38 PM
BP, no, not at all. The difference is HUGE as regards who is making the comment. You and I can call anyone else on this site a knuckle-dragging moron, or anything else, because the target is NOT part of a supposed marital union with us. Avoiding DJs is to be strictly followed within the marriage.

Example, while driving, addressed to spouse:

1) That driver doesn't know the first thing about safe operation of a motor vehicle and should have her license yanked.

2) You don't know the first thing about safe operation of a motor vehicle and should have your license yanked.

Do you see the difference in the potential harm?
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 02/08/13 01:23 AM
Originally Posted By: unwritten
About moving forward: recently someone said to me "There is a reason a car has a small rearview mirror and a big front window. Because you should be looking forward much more than you look behind." When I start to think of the history (not just the A's but the other things my little devil of resentment want me to remember so that I know H doesn't deserve to be happy!) I actually think of the big car window. LOL. I'm a dork. But it works for me. I think of the big car window and it causes my mind to focus.

I also like to think about the people who inspire me. There are the negative people who carry resentment and bitterness for years, for every thing that has negatively impacted them in their past. Trudge around, crabby face, well you know my dad died when I was 20 and then I didn't get to go to college, and then blah blah blah (this is my FIL, he is 70+ now, so basically he has wasted a LIFEtime because he is bitter that his dad died when he was young and it changed his life plan). Then there are the people who just have sunshine around them, and no matter what negative thing falls into their lap, they take the small silver lining, count their blessings, and live. The latter are the ones that inspire me. Inspire me to BE that person!

But yep its hard. Big front car window.

But not Kiss's car window. That car needs to GO. And that wine situation was absolutely a complete lack of care. COME ON KISS, there was NO OTHER BOTTLE of wine in the whole store? And there are NO OTHER STORES in all of New York for you to get a bottle of wine from? Make sure you are honest about how inconsiderate that is. Then, big window.



Unwritten, somehow I missed this post earlier. I will try to picture that big front window. I think I am doing that sometimes. Like V'day, for example, last V'day was HORRIBLE for me. But, THIS V'Day is mine! Mine and Kiss'. I'm not going to think about last year, just this year.

As far as the wine, I asked for Moscato. Apprently he could only find it by that winery. However, he should have left the bottle behind as he got me a bottle of Reisling too.

I counted up our UA time for the week and so far it sucks. 2 1/2 hours sunday (church and lunch after) and about an hour or so Monday night just watching TV. He worked the last 2 nights until 11. He works tonight until 8, tomorrow until 8 and saturday until 10. So that leaves us with sunday. I'll have to come up with something to do to make it count.
Posted By: wle2 Re: Moving forward - 02/08/13 03:12 AM
RQ
Don't stay in the ditch of regret.
You know what to do! We all have read how strong you are!
Course correct and keep "Moving Forward"

So you Should have exposed more, yep been there!

You Might have asked for more, sure.

Probably should have sold the car...

never mind I'll let that one go!

The plan works, but you have to work the plan!

You know this.

I have so many dents from driving off the path or just idling and getting hit. We have to continue from where we are stuck and THAT Sister is a darn better place than where we started. Right?
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 02/08/13 03:49 AM
wle2, you are so right! I hate when I not only idle but roll backwards. That is why I am glad to have you friends here to give me that boost to get going again.

I need to concentrate more on making what little UA time we get count. Make sure I'm meeting his needs and get rid of those triggers. I need to refocus on the plan and as UW, look through that big front window.

The car will be gone at the end of the month. Kiss will be taking it to Florida and then flying back a few days later. And if that falls through, then it will be on Craigslist...cheap!
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 02/17/13 08:09 PM
So, right now I am sensing a distance growing between kiss and I. I feel that we are losing focus on our recovery.

Can someone tell me what we should be doing to focus on the mb principles? Is there something weekly that we could be doing to keep us moving forward? I need a plan!
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Moving forward - 02/17/13 09:18 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
So, right now I am sensing a distance growing between kiss and I. I feel that we are losing focus on our recovery.

Can someone tell me what we should be doing to focus on the mb principles? Is there something weekly that we could be doing to keep us moving forward? I need a plan!


15+ hrs a week of UA time! Scheduled together! Planned together! Acted out together!

Do EVERYTHING together

Exclude everything that interrupts doing things together.

If you are going one direction to drop off a kid somewhere, either cancel what your kids are doing or go together!

Do you see? ELIMINATE ALL ACTIVITIES that do not allow for time together.

Eliminate the TV from your home if it prevents you from talking together..... You'll cry out, "but what about my kids"? They will survive. I found after 10 years without a TV in our home that they actually THRIVE!

You've got to be serious about UA time!

It will be a narrow road for a while.... Maybe even for five or ten years, but the road you begin to travel together will broaden without you even noticing and your path will be firm.

UA

UA

UA
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Moving forward - 02/17/13 09:20 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Can someone tell me what we should be doing to focus on the mb principles? Is there something weekly that we could be doing to keep us moving forward? I need a plan!

You should be going out on dates for at least 15 hours per week, and you should be coming home from those dates and snuggling up in bed for even more UA time.

I know it's hard with young kids, but it is the single thing that will make all the difference to the way you feel. You have to move heaven and earth to make it happen.

A major requirement of this programme is that you must abandon the kids and have fun together for several hours every week. What could be nicer?
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Moving forward - 02/17/13 09:22 PM
Originally Posted By: HerPapaBear
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
So, right now I am sensing a distance growing between kiss and I. I feel that we are losing focus on our recovery.

Can someone tell me what we should be doing to focus on the mb principles? Is there something weekly that we could be doing to keep us moving forward? I need a plan!


15+ hrs a week of UA time! Scheduled together! Planned together! Acted out together!

Do EVERYTHING together

Exclude everything that interrupts doing things together.

If you are going one direction to drop off a kid somewhere, either cancel what your kids are doing or go together!

Do you see? ELIMINATE ALL ACTIVITIES that do not allow for time together.

Eliminate the TV from your home if it prevents you from talking together..... You'll cry out, "but what about my kids"? They will survive. I found after 10 years without a TV in our home that they actually THRIVE!

You've got to be serious about UA time!

It will be a narrow road for a while.... Maybe even for five or ten years, but the road you begin to travel together will broaden without you even noticing and your path will be firm.

UA

UA

UA

Is the message getting through yet, rq?
Posted By: wle2 Re: Moving forward - 02/17/13 09:34 PM
Originally Posted By: HerPapaBear
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
So, right now I am sensing a distance growing between kiss and I. I feel that we are losing focus on our recovery.

Can someone tell me what we should be doing to focus on the mb principles? Is there something weekly that we could be doing to keep us moving forward? I need a plan!


15+ hrs a week of UA time! Scheduled together! Planned together! Acted out together!

Do EVERYTHING together

Exclude everything that interrupts doing things together.

If you are going one direction to drop off a kid somewhere, either cancel what your kids are doing or go together!

Do you see? ELIMINATE ALL ACTIVITIES that do not allow for time together.

Eliminate the TV from your home if it prevents you from talking together..... You'll cry out, "but what about my kids"? They will survive. I found after 10 years without a TV in our home that they actually THRIVE!

You've got to be serious about UA time!

It will be a narrow road for a while.... Maybe even for five or ten years, but the road you begin to travel together will broaden without you even noticing and your path will be firm.

UA

UA

UA


X2
RQ, That's where it begins and that's what keeps you engaged.
Get creative!
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Moving forward - 02/17/13 10:04 PM
Yep - UA time and each of you asking yourselves every morning, "What can I do to meet my spouse's needs today?" and doing it.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 02/17/13 10:09 PM
We can scrape together the hours. For example, kiss is available this Thursday night, Saturday night and he is off on Sunday.

I think our trouble with UA time (besides finding it) is what to do with it. We don't have anywhere we want to go or have anything that we do together. And since I just found out that we owe money ( a lot) in taxes, won't be able to afford anything that costs money.
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Moving forward - 02/17/13 10:17 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
We can scrape together the hours. For example, kiss is available this Thursday night, Saturday night and he is off on Sunday.

I think our trouble with UA time (besides finding it) is what to do with it. We don't have anywhere we want to go or have anything that we do together. And since I just found out that we owe money ( a lot) in taxes, won't be able to afford anything that costs money.



Pitiful!

Plenty of excuses!

Walks, sight seeing, art museums, there are soooooo many free things you can do together that your list is actually endless!
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Moving forward - 02/17/13 10:23 PM
We spend at least 8 hours per week doing free stuff in London. If you live in NYC (or do you live outside the city?) there must be a fair amount of free stuff available to you.

We spend about four hours walking. We either start from our house and explore our suburbs, or get on the tube and go into London, or in the car and go out to the nearby countryside. We could never exhaust all there is to see within half an hour of us if we lived here another 25 years. We go for a walk every weekend.

We spend more free time when H meets me in London from work. We go to free art galleries and exhibitions or just for a walk along the river bank. We will spend money on coffee or a snack, but if we were broke we would take food and drink from home.

The most costly thing we do is go for a meal once a week using either the local restaurants that offer cheap lunches, or using Amazon vouchers.

My H's knees have finally given up the ghost after many years of playing football and he can no longer go running outside, but we used to go once a week to one of our local beautiful parks and he would run slowly and chaperone me. Could you do something like this?

Your give-a-.... is busted, and that's what is making you un-motivated. I sympathise with this, but you have to do the UA and then you will quickly feel better.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Moving forward - 02/17/13 10:25 PM
Originally Posted By: HerPapaBear
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
We can scrape together the hours. For example, kiss is available this Thursday night, Saturday night and he is off on Sunday.

I think our trouble with UA time (besides finding it) is what to do with it. We don't have anywhere we want to go or have anything that we do together. And since I just found out that we owe money ( a lot) in taxes, won't be able to afford anything that costs money.



Pitiful!

Plenty of excuses!

Walks, sight seeing, art museums, there are soooooo many free things you can do together that your list is actually endless!

HPB keeps getting in minutes or seconds before I do!
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Moving forward - 02/17/13 10:27 PM
Oh, please stop making this harder than it need be, guys!

You live in Ulster County, so:

Without much snow this winter, pack a thermos of coffee, go to the Mohonk Preserve and walk some of the trails.
Drive to Highland, and walk the Walkway over the Hudson. (Let us know when, and Bride and I will meet you halfway across. I'll be the one with the 2x4!)
Read a book together (poetry is good, especially if you do so with humor!)
ACT OUT a poem together (Jabberwocky is damned difficult!)
Play backgammon, or chess.
Change the oil in your car, together! (That'll save you $$$)
Then, in view of the effects of the dry winter weather, give each other a massage with skin cream.

I don't think, excepting gas, any of these cost a penny!
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 02/17/13 11:27 PM
NG, I absolutely hate this cold and will not do anything outdoors. So that definitely limits us. Though I love walking the walkway when it's warm smile

The only thing I have found that we both enjoy is puzzles. We just finished one the other night.

Sugarcane, we are a ways from NYC, unfortunately. So local hot spots are few and far between (no art museums or anything similar). I have checked community pages but have yet to see anything spark our interest.

Thanks for all of the suggestions, though!
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Moving forward - 02/17/13 11:40 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
NG, I absolutely hate this cold and will not do anything outdoors.

So drive to something that is free and indoors!
Posted By: LongWayFromHome Re: Moving forward - 02/18/13 01:05 AM
How about games? We love games and have purchased many for those bad weather days or just days when we have some down time we want to be together at home. While our favorite games tend to be Euro games, we have played cribbage in bed sans clothes with a glass of wine. And that's pretty enjoyable.

We also started couples dance lessons at a nearby college for just $6 total each week. It's a lot of fun and gets us out of the house. Right now it's on a test basis. I'm the one who loves dancing and H agreed to give it a try. So far, it's turning out to be fun for him, so we'll keep at it until he says otherwise, following POJA on our RC.

We go to the gym together a couple or three times a week for treadmill and weights. Kind of dull, but doing it together definitely makes it more fun.

Granted we are hardly in snowy country like you are, but it gets darned hot in the summertime, and I feel like I'm going to melt into a puddle if we do outdoorsy things from June through September.
Posted By: Viscountess Re: Moving forward - 02/18/13 02:07 AM
Groupon and Livingsocial have some good cheap deals.
Posted By: catwhit Re: Moving forward - 02/18/13 03:24 AM
Give each other pedicures.
Rearrange the bedroom furniture.
Cook something together... How about some antipasto or learn to make sausage?
Plan a dream vacation... All the details, etc. (you don't have to go on it until later!)
Make up dirty limericks for each other.
Try on all your underwear/lingerie. Try on each others.
Pick a great book and take turns reading to each other.
Get an audio book from the library and take turns giving each other a full massage... Each one has to keep going until chapter ends.
Plan a project together, for when it is warm enough to undertake, or your budget improves.
Posted By: Darkguy Re: Moving forward - 02/21/13 01:38 PM
I don't really read these forums on recovery as I am not there yet. Hopefully with a plan I can be here. Just wanted to wish you luck on your journey of recovery and thanks for the valentines day idea. Here is a site that has some good ideas of couple time. http://archive.lovingyou.com/content/romance/romance101.php
Hope it helps.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 02/21/13 04:12 PM
Thanks, tranquil!
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Moving forward - 02/21/13 05:28 PM
Make up dirty limericks for each other.

Someday, catwhit, I will get even with you for this! Three days now, with only one obsessive, compulsive, task....

BRIDE - fried, cried, spied, tried, hog-tied, rip-tide, butterflied, ride, glide, guide.....

NEVERGUESSED - lest, messed, sever test, lever pest, forever best (I like that one!).....
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 02/22/13 02:29 AM
I'm a bit worried about things. Kiss had a rough day at work yesterday, so he kind of took it on me. I had texted him around 8 when he was supposed to leave work. He got annoyed with me that I called him at work at 8:45 and questioned why he didn't call like he is supposed to. He said I need to "cut" him "some slack". He was short with me when he got home and wouldn't discuss it how he was feeling with me. He then stayed up until 2 playing video games and slept on the couch.

I feel that he is pushing me away and that we are at odds right now.
I need to get him to open up to me but he won't. And it scares me.

I was sick all night and all day with a stomach bug so haven't had the strength to talk to him more since my attempt last night.
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Moving forward - 02/23/13 01:16 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
I'm a bit worried about things. Kiss had a rough day at work yesterday, so he kind of took it on me. I had texted him around 8 when he was supposed to leave work. He got annoyed with me that I called him at work at 8:45 and questioned why he didn't call like he is supposed to. He said I need to "cut" him "some slack". He was short with me when he got home and wouldn't discuss it how he was feeling with me. He then stayed up until 2 playing video games and slept on the couch.

I feel that he is pushing me away and that we are at odds right now.
I need to get him to open up to me but he won't. And it scares me.

I was sick all night and all day with a stomach bug so haven't had the strength to talk to him more since my attempt last night.



RQ,

IMO, KISS is still not serious about recovery. He has a good week or two and then wants stroked and patted on the back.

I'll bet he still whines about reading Dr. Harley's books. "Oh poor me, I can't read well". Well neither can I... I have to wear a patch just to be able to see a page in a book because I have double vision. I've had several eye muscle surgeries to try to help, but it hasn't.... I press on anyway's and read the MB books over and over again. I also listen to them in my vehicles on CD and I listen to Dr. Harley's radio programs too. KISS still doesn't view recovery as if his life and his marriage depend upon it. And that's why your marriage is barely surviving.

He's still driving around in the car he should have sold on day one of recovery even if it meant giving it to some homeless bum on the street at a major loss. And wonders why you trigger???

He justifies and rationalizes most of his behaviors and wonders why he doesn't have the time for UA time with you. He could easily have got a $3.00 bottle of olive oil and added some essential oil it that you would like the smell of and gave you a body rub while you rested last night. And yes, THAT'S UA time. Instead he chose to withdraw love units at an alarming rate by pouting and playing video games. And to top it all off, he likes to pretend the problems you are suffering with are somehow YOUR issues.

He still doesn't get that HE is the cause of your pain, triggers, viscous memories, and PTSD. He thinks you are some sort of magician that should have gotten over most of this by now.

He didn't call you last night as agreed upon and asks for a little slack??? Seriously??? Slack is all you've been giving him, because he's still a slacker.

I stopped posting to him because I don't believe he's serious about the MB Program, or about recovery. He's making this a tit-for-tat recovery program. you demonstrate you'll meet his needs and he'll meet yours..... The reason our recovery was successful is because I didn't ask my wife to meet any of my needs. She was unable too. She was so devastated by my actions for so long that she was on the verge of collapse everyday. I nursed he back to health using the MB Program of Care & Protection with complete abandon. We would divorced if I had expected much from her. She began meeting my needs at the same rate that her love for me returned. When I recognized this result it made me work with that much more energy. THAT's why I get so furious with KISS and other waywards like him. They don't see anyone except themselves, and until they do, a recovery that limps along is all they'll have.

I know this is directed more at KISS than you, but I felt I needed to share this with you.... Maybe KISS will read it too, but I wouldn't expect much from him other than a few weeks of trying again, followed by more half-ass-measures, blame, and toe tapping waiting for his needs to be met too.

"Cut me some slack", OK I must admit that one infuriates me. Actually set me off enough that I'd like to (self edit)

I have a great deal of respect and admiration for BS's that are willing to attempt the recovery gig in spite of the pain they've endured. Kudo's to you!

And I can't type either..... That's why my posts are usually short and to the point - My children make fun of me while I type, they call me a Typeasaurus. wink
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Moving forward - 02/23/13 04:07 PM
"Cut me some slack" ..... crybaby
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Moving forward - 02/23/13 04:09 PM
I stopped posting to him as well.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 02/23/13 04:50 PM
Papa bear, thank you for taking the time to post to me. I realize that I have lost my backbone in the last couple of months and need to start standing up for myself again.

Thank you, and others who shook some sense into me. Time to get the steel tip boots on.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Moving forward - 02/23/13 05:21 PM
MissQueen
I stop posting when I am pretty sure they are not listening to me.
That's totally my perception.
I may be correct. I may be incorrect.
Often a different poster can get through when I cannot.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 02/24/13 12:07 AM
And I.appreciate that you continue to post to me, Miss Pepperband. I value your insight even if others don't. kiss
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Moving forward - 02/24/13 03:43 PM
Originally Posted By: HerPapaBear
Maybe KISS will read it too, but I wouldn't expect much from him other than a few weeks of trying again, followed by more half-ass-measures, blame, and toe tapping waiting for his needs to be met too.


So what is the plan when/if this happens RQ? Or do you plan to continue this cycle for the next XX months/years?
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Moving forward - 02/24/13 03:46 PM
Also just curious what happened with the gym situation that KISS was advised was not following EPs and also he told us triggered you...

Did he ever give up his membership once you ended Plan B?
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 02/24/13 04:12 PM
I'll get him back on track, SusieQ. Neither of us have been back to the gym in awhile, but I think we should start going together. Good UA time and it would help me get rid of the weight I've gained back. wink
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Moving forward - 02/24/13 04:28 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
I'll get him back on track, SusieQ. Neither of us have been back to the gym in awhile, but I think we should start going together. Good UA time and it would help me get rid of the weight I've gained back. wink



You didn't really answer either of my questions.

The pattern has been, you post about the problems with KISS getting lazy with recovery AGAIN, we browbeat him, he improves - repeat cycle w/n a short time. Do you disagree with that? If not, do you have a plan for how long you want your recovery to continue this way? (if you are OK with just continuing on this way, that's OK with me - but just tell me)

Secondly, the question about the EP regarding the gym - the question I actually asked was if he added that to the list of EPs (to not go without you) and if he has gone to the gym alone since you came out of Plan B? I am just curious how he followed through on this based on what he said on his thread. Thanks.
Posted By: kerala Re: Moving forward - 02/24/13 04:31 PM
Not to add to a pile-on, RQ, but it's not possible for YOU to get HIM "back on track". You know that...right?
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 02/24/13 04:37 PM
Sorry, no I don't disagree with what you say about the pattern. As for now, I will continue to steer us back. We have put our kids through so much this past year that I couldn't live with doing anything otherwise. But, I don't know how long I can keep that up. Who knows? I might say screw it at some point. But I haven't reached that point yet.

As far as the gym, no he hasn't gone alone or with anyone else since I told him that I don't like it.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Moving forward - 02/24/13 05:52 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Sorry, no I don't disagree with what you say about the pattern. As for now, I will continue to steer us back.


As you might have guessed, I am going to tell you that this is a terrible plan and if you continue on this pattern you are going to keep lovebusting each other until something terrible happens (another A or one or the other of you wants to head towards Plan D)

First, this plan to "steer" kiss back on track most likely involves DJing and lovebusting. You shouldn't be trying to straighten him out. He needs another accountability partner -- it was supposed to be the SA board but obviously that's not working. Anyway, posters are going to get tired (as they already have) of this game and trying to 2x4 him into meaningful change.

So I have two suggestions.

1) As has been suggested to you before because the topic has come up many times, his job is not good for your M or recovery due to the long hours, the overnights, the stress, his past of having poor boundaries with female coworkers, it being a trigger, the list goes on and on. This latest incident seems to have also involved an argument/friction from the job.

2) The online program -- the coach will be KISS's accountability partner (which he desperately needs) and she will also hold the both of you accountable for UA time WEEKLY. I think you (both) will benefit tremendously from having constant access to Dr Harley on the private forum to implement MB tools such as POJA, etc.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 02/25/13 12:29 AM
Susie, I agree with everything you said. And thanks for laying it out for me.

I agree that kiss' job is a big obstacle for us. I am hoping that when we move to Florida, the hours will be better. Of course, that is no guarantee. But, we can't move down there with both of us unemployed so he needs to hang onto it for now. I am still nervous about this move as I do not like the idea of being dependent on anyone, nor being so far from my family. But it is the best option for all of us.

I also think we do need the accountability program. It is something we have talked about before but didn't go through with. I do worry about paying for it and not following through with it, especially since money is so tight for us. But, I think it is our best resource as well since he doesn't post or listen to the mb app I downloaded for him.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Moving forward - 02/26/13 09:14 AM
Suzy knocked it out of the park.

Like... I... I don't even...


How do you follow THAT?


And you know what? I'm going to be a nutball here; I don't really blame KISS for not coming to get dirt kicked in his face.

Get. The. Coaching.

Your husband will NOT be treated that way by his accountability coach. He will NOT be treated that way by Dr. Harley.

Your marriage is on life-support, and this program is still the best option. Time to try a different administration route, as porcupine suppositories just don't seem to work that well with your husband...
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 02/28/13 08:00 PM
From Kiss' thread

Originally Posted By: kerala
I might be wrong, but I don't recall RQ voicing any negative opinion on the car staying with the sister. So the idea that KISS is doing something wrong, per se, by selling the car to her is not necessarily in line with their actual agreement.


You're not wrong. I don't have any problem with the car going to his sister nor do I have problem with kiss driving to florida with her and visiting his parents.

Originally Posted By: kerala
I agree, though, that determining NOW whether there is actual POJA is going to be quite difficult, as both seem to be fair stuck on seeing the other as "wrong".

Sad.


Neither Kiss or I see each other as being "wrong". We both agreed to the car issue.

Kiss and I have enough issues to deal with in our marriage without this "clutter". Can we please drop the issue of the skankmobile and drive to Florida?
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Moving forward - 02/28/13 08:39 PM
Rq - it is not "we" who are bringing it up. It's that person fighting your corner who is angry at kiss. I think this is one of your relatives.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 02/28/13 08:47 PM
Originally Posted By: SugarCane
Rq - it is not "we" who are bringing it up. It's that person fighting your corner who is angry at kiss. I think this is one of your relatives.


Thanks, sugarcane. It's possible.
Posted By: kerala Re: Moving forward - 03/01/13 04:02 AM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
From Kiss' thread



Originally Posted By: kerala
I agree, though, that determining NOW whether there is actual POJA is going to be quite difficult, as both seem to be fair stuck on seeing the other as "wrong".

Sad.


Neither Kiss or I see each other as being "wrong". We both agreed to the car issue.



To respond, that quote was not about the car, but a more general comment about the dynamic that your respective posts reveal about your relationship.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 03/01/13 04:27 AM
Thanks for clarifying, Kerala. Kiss and I have a lot of work to do.
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Moving forward - 03/07/13 02:46 AM
Is your H's lack of posting somehow tied in to how often this thread remains dormant?

Maybe posting here more regularly would make a difference, Dunno???? Just more of a curious observation.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 03/07/13 04:11 AM
HPB, it was locked until just over a month ago. I asked the mods to unlock it so I could post again as I thought the same thing. But I have been pretty active here since then. Been doing more reading than posting I guess smile
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Moving forward - 03/07/13 04:12 PM
RQ, when is K getting home? What are you planning to celebrate the removal of the car?
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 03/07/13 05:00 PM
Flight is getting in at 3. We have nothing panned as of yet, but he is off until Tuesday. A celebration is definitely in order smile
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 03/08/13 02:22 PM
Flight got in around 3:30. We went out to dinner (just the 2 of us) and had great UA time together. I spoke to kiss about the Accountabilty program and how much I think it will benefit us and he agreed. Now, to just get the funds for it.

I'm hopeful that this will help us change behaviors and habits that withdraw love units.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Moving forward - 03/08/13 03:04 PM
Did you tell him we miss him - a lot?

The point is that while you are putting together the funds for the formal accountability program, he's abdicated the opportunity to use the "informal" program that is represented by his thread. (Look, I'm not trying to pick a fight by proxy, but facts are facts!)

I'd post this there, but if he's not even on MB reading, it will be of small purchase.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 03/08/13 03:21 PM
NG, I was just thinking that as well. I'm afraid that if we have to wait the month or so to purchase the program, then our bad habits will continue and escalate.


I did suggest to him that he listen to the MB program that was on this morning. I thought it was very informative and was a good reminder that we, as a husband and wife, show our love to each other "God commands us to". Dr. Harley aslo spoke about careers and those that don't allow adequate UA time. I'd like to re-listen to it as well as it still keeps cutting in and out on me when I am playing it. It is sooo frustrating. Anyway, I will suggest that he continue to post until we get registered into an official program.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 03/11/13 02:01 PM
Kiss and I got into quite a heated discussion the other night about our lack of SF. It kind of came out of nowhere to me as I thought I had been doing better at it. But he came at me with the question "Do you know how many times we have made love?" His answer doesn't matter. What mattered was that he was still unhappy with the frequency. I admit I AO'd big time. I was so hurt and felt criticized by something that I feel is beyond my control. Now he feels that he shouldn't have said anything, again! I apologized for my outburst. Kiss has every reason to complain. But it is in the way he does it. I feel like I am critized because he offers no solutions, no understanding or empathy, and turns down my ideas.

However (!) i understand the importance of SF to kiss, even though it is not to me. And I WANT to be willing to meet that need for him. I told him this and suggested that we call an MB coach, he says that WE need to work on this. I tell him that we could use advice but he tells me that he is not willing to do that. In fact, he told me that I should put more effort into our marriage and less into Marriagebuilders. I explained to him that I had been reading the articles about SF, and the threads, to find out how to fix this.

I believe that I need to feel emotionally connected to him, which many times I do not, but he says that he doesn't believe that is the case. I have trouble keeping skank out of our bedroom, but he tells me that he doesn't believe that is the reason as this has always been a problem with our marriage.

Have others had this problem with SF and what helped?
Posted By: LongWayFromHome Re: Moving forward - 03/11/13 02:55 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Kiss and I got into quite a heated discussion the other night about our lack of SF.

However (!) i understand the importance of SF to kiss, even though it is not to me. And I WANT to be willing to meet that need for him.

I believe that I need to feel emotionally connected to him, which many times I do not, but he says that he doesn't believe that is the case. I have trouble keeping skank out of our bedroom, but he tells me that he doesn't believe that is the reason as this has always been a problem with our marriage.

Have others had this problem with SF and what helped?


RQ, we didn't have the problem with SF post-A, but there were years in our marriage when I felt emotionally disconnected from my H, due his lack of affection for me and that's when I rarely felt like making love with him.

It was not a tit-for-tat, as in "if you're not going to be affectionate with me, I'm not going to make love with you, so there." Rather, it was his lack of care for me that caused me to feel withdrawn from him. I didn't want to feel used. I wanted to be loved and to FEEL loved. The care had to be shown throughout the day and the week, and it had to be outside of leading to SF. Because my H now meets this need as well as a couple of other key ENs of mine, SF is so much easier for me to meet for him, even though my drive (as for many women) is much lower than his.

And "skank in the bedroom," yeah, that's a tough one. I did struggle with that one for a long while after the A. I would be in the middle of a great time and suddenly visions of them together would invade and sometimes I couldn't continue. Sometimes I could continue but it was hard. Sometimes I told him of my imaginations, and sometimes I didn't. Either way, it was mind torture and it DOES make a difference. Now we're two plus years post D-Day, it's not really an issue anymore.

My H did an amazing job in recovery. He has basically turned himself into a new man. This new man shows his affection and care for me in a multitude of ways, and that has made all the difference in my willingness to make love with him. So bottom line, only you know what you need to begin to want to meet his needs. You convey it, and he needs to listen, not tell you that he doesn't believe this is the case.

Do you two have the Five Steps workbook? Marriage Builders made all the difference in our recovery.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 03/11/13 03:22 PM
Originally Posted By: LongWayFromHome
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Kiss and I got into quite a heated discussion the other night about our lack of SF.

However (!) i understand the importance of SF to kiss, even though it is not to me. And I WANT to be willing to meet that need for him.

I believe that I need to feel emotionally connected to him, which many times I do not, but he says that he doesn't believe that is the case. I have trouble keeping skank out of our bedroom, but he tells me that he doesn't believe that is the reason as this has always been a problem with our marriage.

Have others had this problem with SF and what helped?


RQ, we didn't have the problem with SF post-A, but there were years in our marriage when I felt emotionally disconnected from my H, due his lack of affection for me and that's when I rarely felt like making love with him.

It was not a tit-for-tat, as in "if you're not going to be affectionate with me, I'm not going to make love with you, so there." Rather, it was his lack of care for me that caused me to feel withdrawn from him. I didn't want to feel used. I wanted to be loved and to FEEL loved. The care had to be shown throughout the day and the week, and it had to be outside of leading to SF. Because my H now meets this need as well as a couple of other key ENs of mine, SF is so much easier for me to meet for him, even though my drive (as for many women) is much lower than his.

And "skank in the bedroom," yeah, that's a tough one. I did struggle with that one for a long while after the A. I would be in the middle of a great time and suddenly visions of them together would invade and sometimes I couldn't continue. Sometimes I could continue but it was hard. Sometimes I told him of my imaginations, and sometimes I didn't. Either way, it was mind torture and it DOES make a difference. Now we're two plus years post D-Day, it's not really an issue anymore.

My H did an amazing job in recovery. He has basically turned himself into a new man. This new man shows his affection and care for me in a multitude of ways, and that has made all the difference in my willingness to make love with him. So bottom line, only you know what you need to begin to want to meet his needs. You convey it, and he needs to listen, not tell you that he doesn't believe this is the case.

Do you two have the Five Steps workbook? Marriage Builders made all the difference in our recovery.


Long way, this is exactly it. I am not intentionally with-holding. We do have the 5 steps workbook although we haven't used it. I know that Dr Harley has said in one of his articles that a woman needs to feel emotionally connected and have a prospect of enjoyment. While I don't know the exact number, many times I am just reaching the plateau stage and kiss is about done. It seems more trouble than it is worth for me.
Posted By: LongWayFromHome Re: Moving forward - 03/11/13 03:52 PM
The timing in SF is crucial for a woman. It took my H some time and practice before he learned to master his control so that I could enjoy a great time, too. Women generally take longer, as you know, and a good lover will pace himself accordingly.

My H had the habit of masturbation for a few years, and that habit created a reflex where he nearly always ejaculated way before I was halfway there--very very frustrating.

The prospect of enjoyment is crucial. We read a couple of good sex manuals some years ago, and that helped a lot. I think Harley's material on SF is really helpful. I listened to his audio CD for that chapter numerous times.

I recommend that you fill out the affection questionnaire first. That will let your H know exactly what he can do to meet your need for affection. Use the worksheet to create a list of acts your H can do for you on a daily basis.

If conversation is also one of your important ENs, fill that one out, too.

These two ENs, when met consistently and with plenty of UA time, will create an environment where you can fall in love with your H.

After filling out these two worksheets, fill out the SF worksheet, so you can see for yourself exactly where you are in this area. Then share it with your H.

The key reason we finally signed up for the Online Seminar is because we simply weren't filling out the worksheets and actively working the MB program. We needed the accountability and help. The worksheets do take some time and effort but the results are worth both.

The other key part of recovery is avoiding all love busters. You will have a hard time falling in love with your H if he is doing them. He will have a tough time showing you he cares if you do them.
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Moving forward - 03/11/13 04:28 PM
RQ,

You two are fighting over SF and are trying to solve the fulfillment issue.

Can you take a step back and see that the inconsistent issue of Real UA time needs addressed before focusing in on just one particular EN.

Does Kiss view Porn? Does Kiss masturbate? His going out to the couch after you're asleep makes me think these are highly likely.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Moving forward - 03/11/13 05:29 PM
RQ your methods aren't working.
Neither are KISS methods.
Is The reason why is because you both have terrible taste in music?
Or is the reason because you both are not following dr Harley's guidelines?

How many hours are you two spending in UA time this week?
Have you both POJA how the time will be spent to you both enjoy it?
Watching television does not count
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 03/11/13 05:33 PM
HPB, I completely agree with the UA time and told kiss that I believe we need to spend more time together and do things. Which is something that I can't control. For example, he doesn't even have his schedule right now, so I can't plan our UA time. I know he is off thursday and friday so we can meet for lunch on thursday and go out friday night.

As for as I know, he is not viewing porn. That was a problem in the past and is now one of his EP's. And, back, then, he would still view porn even though we had been intimate the night before so I don't believe he was viewing it because he was frustrated.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 03/11/13 05:37 PM
Originally Posted By: Jedi_Knight
RQ your methods aren't working.
Neither are KISS methods.
Is The reason why is because you both have terrible taste in music?
Or is the reason because you both are not following dr Harley's guidelines?

How many hours are you two spending in UA time this week?
Have you both POJA how the time will be spent to you both enjoy it?
Watching television does not count


Hey! I don't have terrible taste in music. I have a very varied taste in music and even Kiss grows on you after you listen to it a lot. lol.

As far as the hours, see my previous post. It really does need to be planned out for us in order for it to happen. This past weekend, we pretty much did nothing. I was pretty depressed all weekend and just did housework and spent time with the kids.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 03/14/13 08:57 PM
I think I understand why recovery is so hard. It's because of the pressure to get the marriage right this time. It's because you know what could happen if a spouse is unhappy. Before, you were naive about things. You didn't think much about hubby staying late at work, or about him sleeping on the couch. You didn't see a big deal that you hadn't heard from him in awhile. You kept going with your life and keeping up with work and kids and feeling resentful cause you were doing it alone most of the time.

But now, well NOW you know what you were doing wrong and NOW you know what you need to do. And now you have that fear that if you screw up, it will happen again.

Sigh. They were right, recovery is hard and NOW I know why!
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Moving forward - 03/14/13 11:55 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
I think I understand why recovery is so hard. It's because of the pressure to get the marriage right this time. It's because you know what could happen if a spouse is unhappy. Before, you were naive about things. You didn't think much about hubby staying late at work, or about him sleeping on the couch. You didn't see a big deal that you hadn't heard from him in awhile. You kept going with your life and keeping up with work and kids and feeling resentful cause you were doing it alone most of the time.

But now, well NOW you know what you were doing wrong and NOW you know what you need to do. And now you have that fear that if you screw up, it will happen again.

Sigh. They were right, recovery is hard and NOW I know why!


It's true, RQ: you know the stakes - and in knowing them - you know you both have to step up your game. You just have to take that into the positive realm instead of the negative one. Knowing that your marriage, when utilizing the right formula, can be incredible is awfully empowering! Mistakes will be made, of course, but if you stick to it, most of the time, success is pretty hard not to come by. Isn't that reassuring??? smile

Yes, I know that might sound a bit Pollyanna. I just think it's important to look at the flipside so you aren't living with this frozen in fear mindset.
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Moving forward - 03/15/13 02:02 AM
Originally Posted By: SunnyDinTX
..... I just think it's important to look at the flipside so you aren't living with this frozen in fear mindset.


I'd agree. Working the MB Program out of fear will never work! Fear will destroy you.....
Posted By: armymama Re: Moving forward - 03/15/13 01:15 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
I think I understand why recovery is so hard. It's because of the pressure to get the marriage right this time. It's because you know what could happen if a spouse is unhappy. Before, you were naive about things. You didn't think much about hubby staying late at work, or about him sleeping on the couch. You didn't see a big deal that you hadn't heard from him in awhile. You kept going with your life and keeping up with work and kids and feeling resentful cause you were doing it alone most of the time.

But now, well NOW you know what you were doing wrong and NOW you know what you need to do. And now you have that fear that if you screw up, it will happen again.

Sigh. They were right, recovery is hard and NOW I know why!


Recovery seems hard because you are not following a plan. You and kiss spend less than 15 hours a week together and when you do spend time together, you both deliver all kinds of disrespectful judgments, have angry outbursts, practice independent behavior. There is no way you will feel better when the minimal time together is making love bank withdrawals.

Dr. Harley says that when there is resentment, it is a sign that recovery has not occurred. I was amazed by the truth of that. When H and I recovered our marriage, the resentment dissapated. The interesting thing is now you have an awareness when your husband is unhappy. Having that awareness and empathy (or do you like it when he is miserable) is a step towards making him (and you) happy and in love.

If followed, both of you would benefit from the online program. I know for my H and me, following the MB program saved our marriage and made it better than ever. I hope you and kiss decide to start it soon.

AM
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 03/15/13 02:19 PM
Originally Posted By: SunnyDinTX
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
I think I understand why recovery is so hard. It's because of the pressure to get the marriage right this time. It's because you know what could happen if a spouse is unhappy. Before, you were naive about things. You didn't think much about hubby staying late at work, or about him sleeping on the couch. You didn't see a big deal that you hadn't heard from him in awhile. You kept going with your life and keeping up with work and kids and feeling resentful cause you were doing it alone most of the time.

But now, well NOW you know what you were doing wrong and NOW you know what you need to do. And now you have that fear that if you screw up, it will happen again.

Sigh. They were right, recovery is hard and NOW I know why!


It's true, RQ: you know the stakes - and in knowing them - you know you both have to step up your game. You just have to take that into the positive realm instead of the negative one. Knowing that your marriage, when utilizing the right formula, can be incredible is awfully empowering! Mistakes will be made, of course, but if you stick to it, most of the time, success is pretty hard not to come by. Isn't that reassuring??? smile

Yes, I know that might sound a bit Pollyanna. I just think it's important to look at the flipside so you aren't living with this frozen in fear mindset.


SunnyD, that is exactly what I meant, that this time the stakes are high.

I have to let go of the fear of making mistakes and beating myself up about them and instead see them as a way to learn.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 03/15/13 02:27 PM
Originally Posted By: armymama
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
I think I understand why recovery is so hard. It's because of the pressure to get the marriage right this time. It's because you know what could happen if a spouse is unhappy. Before, you were naive about things. You didn't think much about hubby staying late at work, or about him sleeping on the couch. You didn't see a big deal that you hadn't heard from him in awhile. You kept going with your life and keeping up with work and kids and feeling resentful cause you were doing it alone most of the time.

But now, well NOW you know what you were doing wrong and NOW you know what you need to do. And now you have that fear that if you screw up, it will happen again.

Sigh. They were right, recovery is hard and NOW I know why!


Recovery seems hard because you are not following a plan. You and kiss spend less than 15 hours a week together and when you do spend time together, you both deliver all kinds of disrespectful judgments, have angry outbursts, practice independent behavior. There is no way you will feel better when the minimal time together is making love bank withdrawals.

Dr. Harley says that when there is resentment, it is a sign that recovery has not occurred. I was amazed by the truth of that. When H and I recovered our marriage, the resentment dissapated. The interesting thing is now you have an awareness when your husband is unhappy. Having that awareness and empathy (or do you like it when he is miserable) is a step towards making him (and you) happy and in love.

If followed, both of you would benefit from the online program. I know for my H and me, following the MB program saved our marriage and made it better than ever. I hope you and kiss decide to start it soon.

AM



Actually, AM, I respectfully disagree. Recovery is hard because we are trying to follow the program. It is not easy finding 15 hrs to spend together, it's not easy to find something to do with that 15 hours, it's not easy breaking bad habits, it's not easy to stop being independent, it's not easy to realize when you are saying a dj (in fact I can't see why you say that I deliver dj's and ao's, so forth and so on.

However,I know that we have to make these changes if we want our marriage to recover.

Anyway, our UA time together next week should be about 15 hrs and the following week look to be about 11. Although, that is Kiss's spare time. So how does he fit in FC time to spend with his kids?
Posted By: armymama Re: Moving forward - 03/15/13 04:39 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Originally Posted By: armymama
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
I think I understand why recovery is so hard. It's because of the pressure to get the marriage right this time. It's because you know what could happen if a spouse is unhappy. Before, you were naive about things. You didn't think much about hubby staying late at work, or about him sleeping on the couch. You didn't see a big deal that you hadn't heard from him in awhile. You kept going with your life and keeping up with work and kids and feeling resentful cause you were doing it alone most of the time.

But now, well NOW you know what you were doing wrong and NOW you know what you need to do. And now you have that fear that if you screw up, it will happen again.

Sigh. They were right, recovery is hard and NOW I know why!


Recovery seems hard because you are not following a plan. You and kiss spend less than 15 hours a week together and when you do spend time together, you both deliver all kinds of disrespectful judgments, have angry outbursts, practice independent behavior. There is no way you will feel better when the minimal time together is making love bank withdrawals.

Dr. Harley says that when there is resentment, it is a sign that recovery has not occurred. I was amazed by the truth of that. When H and I recovered our marriage, the resentment dissapated. The interesting thing is now you have an awareness when your husband is unhappy. Having that awareness and empathy (or do you like it when he is miserable) is a step towards making him (and you) happy and in love.

If followed, both of you would benefit from the online program. I know for my H and me, following the MB program saved our marriage and made it better than ever. I hope you and kiss decide to start it soon.

AM



Actually, AM, I respectfully disagree. Recovery is hard because we are trying to follow the program. It is not easy finding 15 hrs to spend together, it's not easy to find something to do with that 15 hours, it's not easy breaking bad habits, it's not easy to stop being independent, it's not easy to realize when you are saying a dj (in fact I can't see why you say that I deliver dj's and ao's, so forth and so on.

However,I know that we have to make these changes if we want our marriage to recover.

Anyway, our UA time together next week should be about 15 hrs and the following week look to be about 11. Although, that is Kiss's spare time. So how does he fit in FC time to spend with his kids?


It takes a conscious effort to change behavior until it becomes a habit. It starts with the UA time. If you cannot find a way to consistently carve out PLEASANT UA time (avoiding lovebusters), recovery will be hard, if not impossible. My H and I struggled for a long time. When we began the program in earnest, we tracked our UA time for 84 consective weeks. It felt very clinical and was a nuisance to do the recordkeeping. What we found, though, was that anytime our UA time dipped below 15 hours for the week, we both felt bad.

I have read both yours and kiss's threads and in my opinion, you BOTH have plenty of lovebusters to eliminate.

AM
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Moving forward - 03/15/13 04:43 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen

Anyway, our UA time together next week should be about 15 hrs and the following week look to be about 11. Although, that is Kiss's spare time. So how does he fit in FC time to spend with his kids?


RQ,

It's a waste of time if you both will not commit to a MINIMUM of 15 - 20 + hours every week.

The kids time is scheduled AFTER your 15-20 hrs of UA time is scheduled and achieved.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Moving forward - 03/15/13 04:48 PM
I can gain you 1.5 hours per day of UA time, if you are willing to put in the effort. DRIVE KISS TO WORK! AND PICK HIM UP!

If you want to make excuses, start now! If you want to save your marriage, DO IT!
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 03/15/13 05:10 PM
Um, NG, I work as well, so that is not possible.

I didn't come on here to make excuses but was rather just reflecting on how I felt about things. Thank you all for pointing out that it is obvious that this program will not work for us.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Moving forward - 03/16/13 12:43 AM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Um, NG, I work as well, so that is not possible.

I didn't come on here to make excuses but was rather just reflecting on how I felt about things. Thank you all for pointing out that it is obvious that this program will not work for us.






think


There are a lot of changes inherent in adapting a wreck of a marriage into the model of successful marriages. We have a lot of ingrained cultural issues that people believe and propogate that are sooooo destructive to marriage.


Blind trust, time apart, girls/boys night out, everyone is entitled to their opinion, and on and on and on.

But... you know better. Those tropes lead your marriage down a path of destruction.


It sucks hitting the electric fence. It hurts.


RQ; you are not the woman you were 6 months ago, let alone 6 years or beyond.


I'm reminded of an AMWAY sales pitch I was drug to by a coworker when I worked in grocery. Part of the pitch was for an opportunity to bear fruit, you must WORK with it. You couldn't simply buy their sales kit, put it under your bed, and expect to be successful.

I didn't buy in... but... that still makes sense.

This program won't work if you put the books in the closet. It's a plan, not a magic pill.
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Moving forward - 03/16/13 01:30 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
..... Thank you all for pointing out that it is obvious that this program will not work for us.





RQ,

That's just NOT true!

The Program WILL work for you.....

What won't work is holding on to old ideas and old ways of doing things.

The Program itself is NOT the obstacle for success. It's the way we choose to work it!


No one here is against you! We want to see you succeed.

When we point out the obvious roadblocks to you, it's just that...... We want you to clearly see the roadblocks.

If you were driving down the road and hit a "road closed" sign, would you sit there and just wait for the road to re-open or find another path to get where you're going?
Of course, you'd find another path!
That's what we are trying to share with you when we point out the obvious roadblocks that we see, OK..... We don't want to see you sitting at the roadblock, waiting, when there is another route!
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Moving forward - 03/16/13 01:40 PM
Originally Posted By: NeverGuessed
I can gain you 1.5 hours per day of UA time, if you are willing to put in the effort. DRIVE KISS TO WORK! AND PICK HIM UP!

If you want to make excuses, start now! If you want to save your marriage, DO IT!


The forum is full of married couples that have UA time.
An "I can't do it" attitude won't work!

Wouldn't it benefit your kids to be raised by parents that were in love with each other and show love to each other?
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Moving forward - 03/16/13 04:57 PM
Another element here is that when you constantly feel you are falling short with no way to measure up in sight - it is awfully exasperating. It always helps me to find some way to feel H and I are at least in control of the situation and working towards getting there.

A perfect example of this is PA and weight. Obviously a person can't drop 50 lbs in a few weeks to be more attractive spouse. It can be planned though - and worked towards so that he/she gets there. Having a nutrition/exercise program in place to get there makes both parties feel better.

UA time is just so important to create the bond between a couple that's needed that it's harped on - and for good reason.

I agree - you are not the same woman you were 6 months ago! A year from now you will be better still...
Posted By: Letty Re: Moving forward - 03/17/13 02:36 AM
oh RQ, i feel badly that you are so frustrated.

you already KNOW MB can work for your M. is it fear of success that keeps you both from using it? people can be just as fearful of things going well as they do that things will go badly. but you two really need to shake off the inertia and get this ball rolling, with BOTH of you pushing.

does kiss put you off when you make suggestions that would help you guys get into recovery? or do you believe yourself that his putting off is actually reasonable? i think that you agree with his assertions that certain steps just can't be done right now.

RQ, there's not much you can do if kiss, actually, both of you aren't going to get radical and make the changes you need to make if your M is to survive. as unwritten put it, it's time to poop or get off the pot. (or was it WPG?) you've been attempting for far too long, and at too great a cost to you and your M.

sometimes, you've just gotta accept the fact that you cannot hold off all the worrying consequences (if he leaves his job we'll go broke, we can't ask our families for even MORE help/support, etc) and JUST DO IT. once you've accepted that the "worst" is going to happen (yes, you are going to be poor. yes, your family may balk at even more help for an M they [apparently] consider "unworthy, yes, you may have to put your relatives aside for a while), you can finally start to grow. and surprisingly, instead of drowning in all those things, the load will lighten and you will feel such relief!

the fact of the matter is that your current lifestyle makes recovery impossible, and it's not just kiss's job, though that is part of the problem for meeting UA time. you know that if you wait much longer, you're not going to survive long enough to get to the "we're going to start working the programme ... when we XXX."

i would love to see you both put your M at the first and foremost - hey let's get really radical and make it the ONLY! - item on your list.

i'm sorry to be so bold and blunt. hug
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Moving forward - 03/19/13 04:44 AM
The conditions that made KISS's affair possible still exist; his obscene work hours.

Until the job compliments the marriage, recovery will be neighboring impossible.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 03/19/13 12:46 PM
Originally Posted By: HoldHerHand
The conditions that made KISS's affair possible still exist; his obscene work hours.

Until the job compliments the marriage, recovery will be neighboring impossible.


Exactly my point, thank you
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Moving forward - 03/20/13 04:21 AM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Originally Posted By: HoldHerHand
The conditions that made KISS's affair possible still exist; his obscene work hours.

Until the job compliments the marriage, recovery will be neighboring impossible.


Exactly my point, thank you


Well who is responsible for that?
Under the POJA you BOTH are!
I suggest you email Dr Harley and make yourself AND Kiss available to speak to him at the same time.
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Moving forward - 03/20/13 11:54 AM
Sorry RQ....

I've been trying to engage your H but it's been futile.

In his posts I've learned; He's not to blame (he's only done what any man would have done that was sex starved), you can't get over it (whatever "it" is), he's a great sexual partner (no issues with his making love), and he can't get you on board with the program (you are only doing what you've always done,which he feels is "nothing")....

Kinda sums it up so far!

The only difference now is; ??? I don't know, is there any difference in him?

Well it appears he's better at gas lighting now that he knows "tid bits" of the MB Program, that's for sure.....
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Moving forward - 03/20/13 04:46 PM
Originally Posted By: HerPapaBear
Sorry RQ....

I've been trying to engage your H but it's been futile.

In his posts I've learned; He's not to blame (he's only done what any man would have done that was sex starved), you can't get over it (whatever "it" is), he's a great sexual partner (no issues with his making love), and he can't get you on board with the program (you are only doing what you've always done,which he feels is "nothing")....

Kinda sums it up so far!

The only difference now is; ??? I don't know, is there any difference in him?

Well it appears he's better at gas lighting now that he knows "tid bits" of the MB Program, that's for sure.....



frown
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 03/20/13 06:17 PM
Originally Posted By: HerPapaBear
Sorry RQ....

I've been trying to engage your H but it's been futile.

In his posts I've learned; He's not to blame (he's only done what any man would have done that was sex starved), you can't get over it (whatever "it" is), he's a great sexual partner (no issues with his making love), and he can't get you on board with the program (you are only doing what you've always done,which he feels is "nothing")....

Kinda sums it up so far!

The only difference now is; ??? I don't know, is there any difference in him?

Well it appears he's better at gas lighting now that he knows "tid bits" of the MB Program, that's for sure.....



HPB, I think you would be able to help Kiss much better than I could. I'm not going to comment on his posts or lack of or I'll be accused of lovebusting. I have encouraged him to continue to post.

I have refrained from posting as I was quite frustrated at the discouraging posts. I don't feel that our recovery is "impossible". I do think that kiss and I can continue to work the program even though our UA time is not up to par. Kiss and I will do what we can to increase our UA time together and spend it doing something we both enjoy.

As far as SF is concerned, my enjoyment of it is not kiss' fault but more the effects that childbirth to four children have had on my ability to be satisfied. It is something I will have to work on with exercises.

I talked to Sandy at Marriagebuilders yesterday and she was very helpful in explaining the difference between the accountability program and the online program. Right now, we can not afford to sign up for the online program, but she instructed me on how to fill out the marital problem analysis form and how to work our way through the workbook. So on those nights that Kiss and I only have an hour or 2 together, we will work on those.

I think, even more so now, that it is important for this move down south to happen. It would be nice to have nice weather year round so that we can engage in activities outdoors. I will also hold off on working for as long as we can afford it so that we can spend more time together.

So, that is our current plan right now.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Moving forward - 03/20/13 11:04 PM
Did he explore his job prospects on his trip?
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 03/20/13 11:32 PM
Originally Posted By: HoldHerHand
Did he explore his job prospects on his trip?


No, he didn't have time as he was only there for 2 days.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Moving forward - 03/21/13 12:38 AM
Have you heard this show?

03-15-13 Show
Segment #2
Segment #3
Segment #4
Segment #5
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 03/21/13 01:16 AM
Originally Posted By: BrainHurts


Brainy, my app still only let's me hear bits and pieces so thanks for the link. I'll take a listen.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Moving forward - 03/21/13 01:50 AM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Originally Posted By: BrainHurts


Brainy, my app still only let's me hear bits and pieces so thanks for the link. I'll take a listen.

You're welcome.

I posted it on kiss's thread also.
Posted By: Viscountess Re: Moving forward - 03/21/13 12:19 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen


I have refrained from posting as I was quite frustrated at the discouraging posts. I don't feel that our recovery is "impossible". I do think that kiss and I can continue to work the program even though our UA time is not up to par. Kiss and I will do what we can to increase our UA time together and spend it doing something we both enjoy.


But, without the UA time the program doesn't work.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 03/21/13 02:33 PM
Originally Posted By: HopefulNC
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen


I have refrained from posting as I was quite frustrated at the discouraging posts. I don't feel that our recovery is "impossible". I do think that kiss and I can continue to work the program even though our UA time is not up to par. Kiss and I will do what we can to increase our UA time together and spend it doing something we both enjoy.


But, without the UA time the program doesn't work.


So, you think we should not bother working on lovebusters, meeting needs or anything because our ua time isn't a lot. I should go ahead with independent behavior and doing what I want to do? And kiss and I should just say forget it?
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Moving forward - 03/21/13 03:24 PM
So, you think we should not bother working on lovebusters, meeting needs or anything because our ua time isn't a lot. I should go ahead with independent behavior and doing what I want to do? And kiss and I should just say forget it?

RQ, "snarky" does not play well, to people who are trying to assist you. The goal here is to have the program help you succeed in forming the best marriage the two of you can create.

Your choice, okay?

1) Do NOT achieve the necessary UA time, and stay in the union you currently have - RQ resentful, and distrusting; K disengaged, distracted, and content(?) to play video games instead of bonding with you. Whether you and/or K decide to just "forget it", whatever that means, or just live the gray life that defines, would not be HNC's business.

2) Make the time, perform the exercises, follow the roadmap, and get to an MB-quality marriage.

MB has had many people decide to take the first exit when the journey gets too tough, and they are still here. Usually, however, their latest post starts with, "I was here years ago, and thought we had put it past us. However, I recently learned......"
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Moving forward - 03/21/13 03:47 PM
I just wrote a long post and lost it....I HATE when that happens!

Unfortunately, I am on my way out the door so don't have time to rewrite. I will try later.

I did have a question though. The answer of which is probably already here in this thread and I just don't recall because I've been so busy the last few months:

Is there a specific plan to get to a better place with the job, UA time, etc...??? OR...is it a case of "this or that might happen and if so..." ???

Frustration usually comes because one feels hopeless that the situation is not going to change.

Have you both explored every option? Have you brainstormed to the point of exhausting all possibilities? I know many have helped you think things through here on your thread as well as Kiss on his... I just don't know the extent to which the two of you have, as a team, looked each other in the eye and have said, "We will do WHATEVER it takes to get our marriage where it should be."

I am not trying to allude to the fact that you have not...I am asking if you have. I know that's a pretty basic question but sometimes the basics get lost in the shuffle.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 03/21/13 04:29 PM
Originally Posted By: NeverGuessed
So, you think we should not bother working on lovebusters, meeting needs or anything because our ua time isn't a lot. I should go ahead with independent behavior and doing what I want to do? And kiss and I should just say forget it?

RQ, "snarky" does not play well, to people who are trying to assist you. The goal here is to have the program help you succeed in forming the best marriage the two of you can create.

Your choice, okay?

1) Do NOT achieve the necessary UA time, and stay in the union you currently have - RQ resentful, and distrusting; K disengaged, distracted, and content(?) to play video games instead of bonding with you. Whether you and/or K decide to just "forget it", whatever that means, or just live the gray life that defines, would not be HNC's business.

2) Make the time, perform the exercises, follow the roadmap, and get to an MB-quality marriage.

MB has had many people decide to take the first exit when the journey gets too tough, and they are still here. Usually, however, their latest post starts with, "I was here years ago, and thought we had put it past us. However, I recently learned......"


Ng, exactly how was that post supposed to "assist" me? Instead it more of the same discouraging posts I have been getting.

Kiss and I are working on getting in our UA time. And we sat down together last night to go over the "marital Problem Analysis" questionnaire and will start on the exercises that address what concerns there were.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 03/21/13 04:33 PM
Originally Posted By: SunnyDinTX
I just wrote a long post and lost it....I HATE when that happens!

Unfortunately, I am on my way out the door so don't have time to rewrite. I will try later.

I did have a question though. The answer of which is probably already here in this thread and I just don't recall because I've been so busy the last few months:

Is there a specific plan to get to a better place with the job, UA time, etc...??? OR...is it a case of "this or that might happen and if so..." ???

Frustration usually comes because one feels hopeless that the situation is not going to change.

Have you both explored every option? Have you brainstormed to the point of exhausting all possibilities? I know many have helped you think things through here on your thread as well as Kiss on his... I just don't know the extent to which the two of you have, as a team, looked each other in the eye and have said, "We will do WHATEVER it takes to get our marriage where it should be."

I am not trying to allude to the fact that you have not...I am asking if you have. I know that's a pretty basic question but sometimes the basics get lost in the shuffle.



SunnyD, I have lost posts in the past too and it is frustrating! Our current plan is to be in Florida by July. Kiss will continue working for the same company, but I will leave my job. This will enable us to have more time together.

Unfortunately, not much can be done until we move as we need both of our salaries right now.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Moving forward - 03/21/13 06:35 PM
Ng, exactly how was that post supposed to "assist" me?

Asking that exact question would have acted more in your benefit than the response you posted, neighbor.

But it was not just your interface with HNC that can frustrate us out here. We who have succeeded went "all in" to make the program work for us. I have NEVER gotten that impression from you or K that either of you has done that. It may be that the translation through the written word is not adequate. I don't know, but let me give you two examples:

RQ: We have nothing affordable to do for RC time.
NG: Try partaking of the beautiful natural wonders of the MHV.
RQ: I don't like the cold.

Not: "Good idea; as the weather permits we'll give them a shot."

RQ: We can't fit in enough UA time.
NG: Try driving K to work.
RQ: I have a job too, you know!

Not: "You know, maybe on days when he's working and I'm not, we'll try that. Maybe even leave 20 minutes early and either get a coffee together, or make out in the parking lot like a pair of teenagers!"

Am I making my point, RQ?

(On a lighter note, it's "NG". "Ng" makes it appear I'm a Vietnamese politician!)
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 03/21/13 10:30 PM
Neverguessed, I understand what you are saying now and didn't realize that was how I was coming across. I apologize for being "snarky". I just need a time out from all of this I think.

I apologize to the rest of you as well.
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Moving forward - 03/22/13 12:10 AM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Originally Posted By: SunnyDinTX
I just wrote a long post and lost it....I HATE when that happens!

Unfortunately, I am on my way out the door so don't have time to rewrite. I will try later.

I did have a question though. The answer of which is probably already here in this thread and I just don't recall because I've been so busy the last few months:

Is there a specific plan to get to a better place with the job, UA time, etc...??? OR...is it a case of "this or that might happen and if so..." ???

Frustration usually comes because one feels hopeless that the situation is not going to change.

Have you both explored every option? Have you brainstormed to the point of exhausting all possibilities? I know many have helped you think things through here on your thread as well as Kiss on his... I just don't know the extent to which the two of you have, as a team, looked each other in the eye and have said, "We will do WHATEVER it takes to get our marriage where it should be."

I am not trying to allude to the fact that you have not...I am asking if you have. I know that's a pretty basic question but sometimes the basics get lost in the shuffle.



SunnyD, I have lost posts in the past too and it is frustrating! Our current plan is to be in Florida by July. Kiss will continue working for the same company, but I will leave my job. This will enable us to have more time together.

Unfortunately, not much can be done until we move as we need both of our salaries right now.


The sad part is....I JUST did it AGAIN! UGH!!!!!!! And, of course... don't have time for a rewrite. I don't know, maybe God doesn't think what I have to say to you today is very good! LOL

Sorry
frown

The bottom line with all of this is...you're discouraged. You want people to give you hope that all can still be well. You know what - it CAN! You may have to suffer for awhile though until you and Kiss are both willing and able to commit 100% to doing everything that's needed.

I've been through a false recovery. Don't know if you remember my story but my H had a cyber/EA years ago - from which we got through but did not recover, obviously - since he had a full-blown A years later. It's not fun. I can guarantee you it would not have happened had we set up our marriage the way we have now. Now, the MB way, we have never felt closer in 22 years than we do now!

Here's the thing: the longer you put off going all in, the harder it is to do because you lose the sense of urgency and necessity that propels you to action. It's human nature. There seems to be a sense of each of you scoping out what the other is willing to do/not do, in fact... You could be hurling toward mediocrity which will not lead to a happy, recovered marriage.

It's also human nature to be looking at each other waiting for the other one to do the great stuff before you commit to doing it yourself. Of course, Kiss should be going to extraordinary measures being that he's the one that had the A, etc... But...because so much has happened since that occurred, that overwhelming sense of "making things right" has probably diminished.

I doubt there is a person here who doesn't understand your frustration. Frustration can only take you so far though. Real change typically occurs when 1 of 2 things happens: You see enough reward on the other side of change to push you into action. OR... You get tired enough of where you are to do something about it.

You have a lot on your plate. It's just really important that you don't let what seems urgent take over what should be priority.

At the very least you can use the next couple of months to plan and "train" for July... when things will be better and you will have more time together. Do what you can to make sure all systems will be go come that time.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 03/22/13 01:36 PM
Thanks Sunny, yes I am feeling discouraged and coming here and being discouraged by others doesn't help. But I'll keep visiting and reading, just not post much.

You are dead on when you say we are both looking to see what the other will do. That is why I feel we need a coach or something to keep us accountable. I feel like if he isn't doing something to work the program then I don't feel like bothering and feel hopeless about it.

I also had a bad week. Triggered badly on saturday and it has lingered. Just finally starting to feel "normal" again.

As far as planning for July, I'm waiting on Kiss to call stores down there and talk to someone. Once we know where he will be, then we can find a house and go from there.
Posted By: Viscountess Re: Moving forward - 03/22/13 05:06 PM
Rocketqueen,

It almost feels like you're waiting for one of the posters here to say that it's hopeless and you should give up.

I hope you can make it work for you and KISS.
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Moving forward - 03/22/13 05:22 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
I'm waiting on Kiss.......


The ghost of your past, present and .....
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 03/22/13 06:00 PM
Originally Posted By: HopefulNC
Rocketqueen,

It almost feels like you're waiting for one of the posters here to say that it's hopeless and you should give up.

I hope you can make it work for you and KISS.


Nope, actually hoping to prove you all wrong. But I apologize for my rudeness to you, Hopeful. I know that I, alone, can't make it work for us. I just want to make sure that I am doing what I can.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 03/22/13 06:02 PM
Originally Posted By: HerPapaBear
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
I'm waiting on Kiss.......


The ghost of your past, present and .....


Yes, quite right. We were actually looking at moving before Kiss' A but he never followed through. Now, well, we'll see. It's been 16 months since D-day #1.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Moving forward - 03/22/13 10:00 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Originally Posted By: HopefulNC
Rocketqueen,

It almost feels like you're waiting for one of the posters here to say that it's hopeless and you should give up.

I hope you can make it work for you and KISS.


Nope, actually hoping to prove you all wrong. But I apologize for my rudeness to you, Hopeful. I know that I, alone, can't make it work for us. I just want to make sure that I am doing what I can.



I hope KISS proves us all wrong, too.


I would love that to happen, in fact.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 03/23/13 08:21 PM
So I just stated reading "The Sexually Confident Wife"', a book Dr Harley has mentioned on the program. I'm 20 pages in and already tearing up. Not only because I can relate so much to it, but because it is triggering me as well because of the comparisons talked about between the wife and single women.
Ugh

Pressing on.....
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Moving forward - 03/24/13 02:15 AM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Originally Posted By: HopefulNC
Rocketqueen,

It almost feels like you're waiting for one of the posters here to say that it's hopeless and you should give up.

I hope you can make it work for you and KISS.


Nope, actually hoping to prove you all wrong. But I apologize for my rudeness to you, Hopeful. I know that I, alone, can't make it work for us. I just want to make sure that I am doing what I can.


Hoping to prove who wrong? Dr Harley?
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 03/25/13 03:30 PM
So, my "scores" on the MPA (marital problem analysis)shows I need to work on the following EN's: SF (2=serious), IC (3=disappointing), H&O (3), DS (3) and admiration (3). The Lovebusters I need to work on are DJ's (3), AO's (3), annoying habits (3) and IB (3).

SF- I'm reading the book mentioned above and hope that will help.
IC- because I am not always communicative when I trigger or am upset about something he said or did.
H&O- same as above
DS- because I will start a task (vacuuming) and not finish (put it away), etc.

Except for the IB and the AO (referring to the one I had the night we discussed SF), I'm not clear on. I'm reviewing those chapters in LB's and will do the exercises.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 03/29/13 02:57 PM
Been feeling really good about the way things are going. We have had some great UA time. Went over some worksheets and had a good discussion the other night. We went out for dessert last night and are going bowling tonight!

I'm doing better with the SF thing and making kiss happy smile

We are planning to get out of town for a few days next month as kiss has a meeting he is supposed to attend in his previous store (where skank works). So we are creating an excuse for him to get out of it. Fortunately, his manager is onboard and helpful with keeping kiss' NC intact.
Posted By: armymama Re: Moving forward - 03/29/13 04:13 PM
RQ,

You sound so very good.

I think I may have posted previously on your thread about my H and my experience with UA time. We charted it for 84 straight weeks. When it rarely dipped below 15 hours, we both felt bad. And it didn't even take more than one week. It happened almost immediately. The importance of UA time cannot be overstated. It is the foundation for everything else.

AM

AM
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 03/29/13 07:01 PM
Yes, I agree AM. I saw your earlier post and at first it discouraged me a lot but I realized that we weren't making our UA a priority. I don't see how it is possible to meet your spouse's needs unless you give them your time. We have been working on scheduling our time and planning something to do so that way we actually DO IT! Even if it is just for an hour or two a day.

I know I feel bad when kiss is at work and I don't get to see him that night, so it is important to make the time we do have together count. We have both been focusing on no IB when we are home together as well. It has been helping a lot!
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving forward - 04/05/13 06:11 PM
Originally Posted By: HerPapaBear
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
I'm waiting on Kiss.......


The ghost of your past, present and .....


I posted that on 3/22 and I'm still in wait and see mode. Sigh

Our UA time has suffered this week due to 4 late nights at work and my youngest has had the flu since Monday.

But I'm still keeping up with his EN's as much as possible. No love busters (been finishing tasks and cleaning up) and been listening to the show daily. Go me!
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Moving forward - 04/05/13 09:53 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Originally Posted By: HerPapaBear
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
I'm waiting on Kiss.......


The ghost of your past, present and .....


I posted that on 3/22 and I'm still in wait and see mode. Sigh

Our UA time has suffered this week due to 4 late nights at work and my youngest has had the flu since Monday.

But I'm still keeping up with his EN's as much as possible. No love busters (been finishing tasks and cleaning up) and been listening to the show daily. Go me!



Good for you on the ENs and LBs... but I wish you were not still waiting and seeing! Sounds like someone (name begins with a K....) needs to take some ACTION.

We all know where the road paved with good intentions takes us...
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving...nowhere? - 04/10/13 04:20 PM
Well, I went ahead and signed the kids up for summer camp. I couldn't hold off as the camp fills up and I wouldn't have anywhere for the kids to go, otherwise.

Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving...nowhere? - 04/11/13 08:34 PM
Boy am I struggling with feeling neglected by Kiss. UA time has been about zilch. I had been writing down days and time but he doesn't join me in this and so we don't plan put things to do. Am I supposed to do that as well.

Just not seeing any effort on his part in working on UA time and meeting my needs. He also hasn't gotten past page 10 of Lovebusters since we did the worksheets and only then, because I mentioned it.

I've been so frustrated that I have been withdrawing and just feel like giving up. I am getting exhausted from complaining, things get better and then back to status quo. Just don't know if I can get back in that driver's seat agian, ya know?

I have an appt with my IC tomorrow, hopefully she can motivate me to keep trying.

Edit: I almost deleted the post because of all my whining but then I figured, screw it, I'm entitled to whine. smile


Posted By: karmasrose Re: Moving...nowhere? - 04/12/13 01:02 AM
You are MORE than entitled to whine, RQ. That is what we are here for. hug

Kiss seems like he wants things to change, and there have been a couple times where it seemed like he was getting there...and then he wasn't. I don't get it. dontknow
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving...nowhere? - 04/12/13 02:08 AM
Thanks Karma smile
Posted By: BetrayedP Re: Moving...nowhere? - 04/12/13 03:26 AM
I'm sorry RQ, that must be so frustrating. One thing that stood out to me when I read about establishing new behaviours, was that they need to be reinforced by a reward. Seems unfair, but if you do get back into the driver's seat (seems you both are in withdrawal), you would need to lead him out of withdrawal back to intimacy. You do that by meeting his needs without expecting anything in return... let the giver have it's reign for a while. At the same time you would need to reward him for meeting your needs. How exactly you do that, well you would know best what he would consider a treat. Kinda like training a dog, huh? That's what I thought when I read it anyways. Can you at least engage him in POJA for some RC?
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Moving...nowhere? - 04/12/13 04:56 AM
Originally Posted By: karmasrose
You are MORE than entitled to whine, RQ. That is what we are here for. hug

Kiss seems like he wants things to change, and there have been a couple times where it seemed like he was getting there...and then he wasn't. I don't get it. dontknow



His habits do not include demonstrating care to his wife. He has to change his habits, and each time he snags, he feels like a failure. This makes it difficult for him to remain on track and motivated. That is HIS responsibility, though.

RQ is only responsible for her side of the street, and doing what she has been doing; creating the opportunities for him to make LB$ deposits.

The ultimate consequence of him not learning habits that demonstrate care towards his wife, is a wife that is no longer in love with him, ultimately in withdrawal, and that will divorce him.


And the clock is ticking...
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Moving...nowhere? - 04/12/13 02:56 PM
Yep - that clock has been ticking for awhile now!

It seems to me that the only time Kiss steps up to the plate is when there is real threat that you're going to walk, RQ. But - the answer isn't to keep threatening, obviously, because the repeated notion of threatening just leads to boy who cried wolf syndrome.

The sad part is, you could just be totally spent one day - and really ready to walk - and Kiss will think it's just another threat - but it won't be. Then he'll try and do all the things he SHOULD be doing now ... But it will be too late.

I take it there's been no real work done on moving over the summer since you enrolled the kids in camp ....
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving...nowhere? - 04/12/13 04:18 PM
Originally Posted By: BetrayedP
I'm sorry RQ, that must be so frustrating. One thing that stood out to me when I read about establishing new behaviours, was that they need to be reinforced by a reward. Seems unfair, but if you do get back into the driver's seat (seems you both are in withdrawal), you would need to lead him out of withdrawal back to intimacy. You do that by meeting his needs without expecting anything in return... let the giver have it's reign for a while. At the same time you would need to reward him for meeting your needs. How exactly you do that, well you would know best what he would consider a treat. Kinda like training a dog, huh? That's what I thought when I read it anyways. Can you at least engage him in POJA for some RC?


The only thing I can really do (and have been doing) is continuing to meet his #1 EN of SF. Though that is getting harder to do with the lack of conversation, and affection before hand (you know, like a date??). I have been doing so with out expections, but again it comes to where I feel like I am rewarding him for "bad" behavior.

I will review HNHN so I can make suggestions to Kiss on how to meet those EN's for me. I know Dr Harley recommends a list of Affection do's and don'ts (so to speak) so I'll work on that.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving...nowhere? - 04/12/13 04:19 PM
Originally Posted By: HoldHerHand
The ultimate consequence of him not learning habits that demonstrate care towards his wife, is a wife that is no longer in love with him, ultimately in withdrawal, and that will divorce him.


And the clock is ticking...


My thoughts as well...
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving...nowhere? - 04/12/13 04:24 PM
Originally Posted By: SunnyDinTX
Yep - that clock has been ticking for awhile now!

It seems to me that the only time Kiss steps up to the plate is when there is real threat that you're going to walk, RQ. But - the answer isn't to keep threatening, obviously, because the repeated notion of threatening just leads to boy who cried wolf syndrome.

The sad part is, you could just be totally spent one day - and really ready to walk - and Kiss will think it's just another threat - but it won't be. Then he'll try and do all the things he SHOULD be doing now ... But it will be too late.

I take it there's been no real work done on moving over the summer since you enrolled the kids in camp ....


Well, I refuse to threaten. wink I haven't complained..yet. Because, as you said, it is the same pattern over and over. I will ask for us to do the EN questionniares and discuss them again. I just feel that its past due for him to actually step up to the plate and swing...without me putting the bat in his hand.

And no, still no action on making calls.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving...nowhere? - 04/13/13 12:27 AM
Just found the lyrics to this song and now I realize why I always teared up at this song. This man "gets it"!

I Will Wait - Mumford and Sons

And I came home
Like a stone
And I fell heavy into your arms
These days of darkness
Which we've known
Will blow away with this new sun

And I'll kneel down
Wait for now
And I'll kneel down
Know my ground

And I will wait, I will wait for you
And I will wait, I will wait for you

So break my step
And relent
You forgave and I won't forget
Know what we've seen
And him with less
Now in some way
Shake the excess

But I will wait, I will wait for you
And I will wait, I will wait for you
And I will wait, I will wait for you
And I will wait, I will wait for you

So I'll be bold
As well as strong
And use my head alongside my heart
So tame my flesh
And fix my eyes
That tethered mind free from the lies

But I'll kneel down
Wait for now
I'll kneel down
Know my ground

Raise my hands
Paint my spirit gold
And bow my head
Keep my heart slow

Cause I will wait, I will wait for you
And I will wait, I will wait for you
And I will wait, I will wait for you
And I will wait, I will wait for you
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving...nowhere? - 04/13/13 03:54 AM
At my IC's urging, I completed an EN questionnaire to go over and discuss with Kiss. When he got up to the ranking of my needs, he told me that I did it all wrong. That my needs were different than they were last time and that they weren't supposed to change. I told him that I ranked them in the order of priority. Thy hadn't changed all that much.My top 2 were still my top 2 but I listed RC as #3 as I feel we need to spend more quality time together.

So, my question is, did I fill it out wrong? Do people's top needs change? And he also asked if that means that he does not need to meet the less important needs?

I explained to him that I ranked them in my order of importance and that I felt it was disrespectful of him to question my feelings about them. He had a "yeah, but" to almost the entire questionnaire.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Moving...nowhere? - 04/13/13 04:43 AM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
At my IC's urging, I completed an EN questionnaire to go over and discuss with Kiss. When he got up to the ranking of my needs, he told me that I did it all wrong. That my needs were different than they were last time and that they weren't supposed to change. I told him that I ranked them in the order of priority. Thy hadn't changed all that much.My top 2 were still my top 2 but I listed RC as #3 as I feel we need to spend more quality time together.

So, my question is, did I fill it out wrong? Do people's top needs change? And he also asked if that means that he does not need to meet the less important needs?

I explained to him that I ranked them in my order of importance and that I felt it was disrespectful of him to question my feelings about them. He had a "yeah, but" to almost the entire questionnaire.




Different factors can change the order of importance of your EN's.

For instance, having them not met at all may cause them to temporarily feel more important.

Being in a state of conflict or withdrawal may cause more intimate emotional needs to fall down the ladder - in conflict or withdrawal you won't be interested in letting him meet the needs for conversation, affection, SF, or RC. You won't want to talk to him, touch him, or be around him.

But, the program has a fix in order for that, doesn't it? A UA time minimum in which the four intimate emotional needs are to be met.

Secondary to that; while it is a good idea to try to meet our spouse's emotional needs the best we can, what is recommended is to look at the top 3-5 ENs and concentrate on meeting those needs expertly and consistently.

The goal is to make the largest and most efficient LB$ deposits possible.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Moving...nowhere? - 04/13/13 11:54 AM
I completed an EN questionnaire to go over and discuss with Kiss...he told me that I did it all wrong.

...based on his extensive and comprehensive knowledge of the psychological theory and methodology behind its development and implementation, no doubt!

NG! That is not likely to assist RQ's campaign to entice K to participate!

Yeah, kicking him in the butt will just drive his head farther UP!
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Moving...nowhere? - 04/13/13 12:01 PM
That depends on what the definition of "is" is.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Moving...nowhere? - 04/13/13 12:05 PM
What are you doing up at 5:01am your time?
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Moving...nowhere? - 04/13/13 12:14 PM
Originally Posted By: NeverGuessed
What are you doing up at 5:01am your time?


Never got to go to bed. NOC nurse no call/no showed.

I'm a....




It's alright, though. Next month on I will only work Sat/Sun doubles and have 5 days off each week!
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving...nowhere? - 04/13/13 02:37 PM
Originally Posted By: HoldHerHand
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
At my IC's urging, I completed an EN questionnaire to go over and discuss with Kiss. When he got up to the ranking of my needs, he told me that I did it all wrong. That my needs were different than they were last time and that they weren't supposed to change. I told him that I ranked them in the order of priority. Thy hadn't changed all that much.My top 2 were still my top 2 but I listed RC as #3 as I feel we need to spend more quality time together.

So, my question is, did I fill it out wrong? Do people's top needs change? And he also asked if that means that he does not need to meet the less important needs?

I explained to him that I ranked them in my order of importance and that I felt it was disrespectful of him to question my feelings about them. He had a "yeah, but" to almost the entire questionnaire.



Different factors can change the order of importance of your EN's.

For instance, having them not met at all may cause them to temporarily feel more important.

Being in a state of conflict or withdrawal may cause more intimate emotional needs to fall down the ladder - in conflict or withdrawal you won't be interested in letting him meet the needs for conversation, affection, SF, or RC. You won't want to talk to him, touch him, or be around him.

But, the program has a fix in order for that, doesn't it? A UA time minimum in which the four intimate emotional needs are to be met.

Secondary to that; while it is a good idea to try to meet our spouse's emotional needs the best we can, what is recommended is to look at the top 3-5 ENs and concentrate on meeting those needs expertly and consistently.

The goal is to make the largest and most efficient LB$ deposits possible.




So to be clear, the order or ranking of the top 5 needs may change based on other factors and the spouse should be working on accommodating those top needs as often as possible but not completely neglect the "lesser 5" ?

Thanks so for taking time to answer after a long sleepless night wink
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving...nowhere? - 04/13/13 02:39 PM
Originally Posted By: NeverGuessed
I completed an EN questionnaire to go over and discuss with Kiss...he told me that I did it all wrong.

...based on his extensive and comprehensive knowledge of the psychological theory and methodology behind its development and implementation, no doubt!

NG! That is not likely to assist RQ's campaign to entice K to participate!

Yeah, kicking him in the butt will just drive his head farther UP!


Which I why I asked as kiss was arguing that dr Harley says that the top 5 needs DONt change. I disagreed with that based on my feelings and what I believe I had read on here before. So I needed some input from you all.

Thank you!
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Moving...nowhere? - 04/13/13 03:15 PM
that the top 5 needs DONt change.
rotflmao

Well, personally, as compared to being a 22-year-old, today SF might still be my number 1, but at least I can SEE number 2 from there!
Posted By: Everthesame Giving up Control - 04/16/13 02:22 PM
I finally gave up. Gave up on the idea of being able to control anyone but myself. Gave up thinking I can influence or motivate any kind of wanted behavior. It is certainly not easy for me let this go (control freak I am, I guess), but it is also a relief of giving up expectations.

But with that liberation, I feel I have also given up on hope. And that is sad. And I am so disappointed.
Posted By: 20YearHistory Re: Moving...nowhere? - 04/16/13 03:14 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen

So, my question is, did I fill it out wrong? Do people's top needs change? And he also asked if that means that he does not need to meet the less important needs?



I have personally found that yes, my EN's have changed during the course of R. There are many stages in R in which ENís can change.

We try to discuss how each of us are doing fulfilling each other's EN's bi-weekly and fill out a new EN's questionnaire about every 6 weeks or so.

I can see Dr. Harleyís point that ENís may stay somewhat consistent over time when NOT going through R. Looking forward to the years to come, I am hopeful that my ENís will become more consistent.

I would hope that KISS would be willing (and more importantly WANT) to monitor your ENís closely and modify his approach to meeting them based on your needs.

In short, yes ENís can change weekly..monthly..etc depending on the current dynamics and progress of your R.

I would also encourage KISS to focus on all of your EN's at this time and not just your top 2-5 at this time (R). Also, I would hope that he could simply be receptive to all your feedback and not 'yeah but you' to death.

In essence it shows his willingness to be flexible in accommodating you. Good lord, does he want you to be happy or not?
Posted By: BetrayedP Re: Giving up Control - 04/16/13 03:16 PM
RQ do you think it might be time for another separation? Maybe it would be the kick in the @ss kiss needs? I don't know what the others would have to say about that. I think you should complain also. Why aren't you complaining? It doesn't matter if you've said it a hundred times before, kiss needs to know that it is not fixed yet. Well that's my opinion anyway.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Giving up Control - 04/16/13 03:54 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
I feel I have also given up on hope.


Well, I am going to point out to you ... that the "hope" you have given up is your hope that you could control the outcome. What you are feeling is a vacancy where you stored that hope to wrangle the outcome. I am very familiar with that vacant feeling. Most of us are.

You have not given up happiness. Your have not given up your own goodness. You have not lost the ability to laugh, cry, smile.

Are you alive today? You appear to be alive.


"I have given up ON HOPE" <~~~~ In my opinion, you are afraid. You are are experiencing fear.

The false hope that you could manage the outcome if you just did "everything right" ..... has not worked out. Now there is a vacancy where that false hope once was. You are afraid of what might fill that vacancy.

Quote:
Gave up on the idea of being able to control anyone but myself.


I get it. I really do.
I had to go to Al-Anon to have this beaten into me.

Rejoice! You have come face-to-face with one of life's great lessons.
You are in control of your attitude about this.
You will be able to choose how you move forward after this realization.

Posted By: Everthesame Re: Moving...nowhere? - 04/16/13 06:30 PM
Originally Posted By: 20YearHistory
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen

So, my question is, did I fill it out wrong? Do people's top needs change? And he also asked if that means that he does not need to meet the less important needs?



I have personally found that yes, my EN's have changed during the course of R. There are many stages in R in which ENís can change.

We try to discuss how each of us are doing fulfilling each other's EN's bi-weekly and fill out a new EN's questionnaire about every 6 weeks or so.

I can see Dr. Harleyís point that ENís may stay somewhat consistent over time when NOT going through R. Looking forward to the years to come, I am hopeful that my ENís will become more consistent.

I would hope that KISS would be willing (and more importantly WANT) to monitor your ENís closely and modify his approach to meeting them based on your needs.

In short, yes ENís can change weekly..monthly..etc depending on the current dynamics and progress of your R.

I would also encourage KISS to focus on all of your EN's at this time and not just your top 2-5 at this time (R). Also, I would hope that he could simply be receptive to all your feedback and not 'yeah but you' to death.

In essence it shows his willingness to be flexible in accommodating you. Good lord, does he want you to be happy or not?


20, thank you for the validation smile

I can just imagine that Kiss would feel frustrated. Concentrating on my top needs and then changing them, LOL.

My top 3 have remained the same, the ones I feel make the biggest love deposits. It's just the other 2 that he says has changed. And that is because DS doesn't deposit as many units as I thought they would wink
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Giving up Control - 04/16/13 06:34 PM
Originally Posted By: BetrayedP
RQ do you think it might be time for another separation? Maybe it would be the kick in the @ss kiss needs? I don't know what the others would have to say about that. I think you should complain also. Why aren't you complaining? It doesn't matter if you've said it a hundred times before, kiss needs to know that it is not fixed yet. Well that's my opinion anyway.


Betrayed, I finally realize that nothing I will do will change Kiss in any way. Not, separating for a short time, not complaining (which I do), not refusing to do something.

I have to let go of what I can't control.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Giving up Control - 04/16/13 06:43 PM
Originally Posted By: Pepperband
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
I feel I have also given up on hope.


Well, I am going to point out to you ... that the "hope" you have given up is your hope that you could control the outcome. What you are feeling is a vacancy where you stored that hope to wrangle the outcome. I am very familiar with that vacant feeling. Most of us are.

You have not given up happiness. Your have not given up your own goodness. You have not lost the ability to laugh, cry, smile.

Are you alive today? You appear to be alive.


"I have given up ON HOPE" <~~~~ In my opinion, you are afraid. You are are experiencing fear.

The false hope that you could manage the outcome if you just did "everything right" ..... has not worked out. Now there is a vacancy where that false hope once was. You are afraid of what might fill that vacancy.

Quote:
Gave up on the idea of being able to control anyone but myself.


I get it. I really do.
I had to go to Al-Anon to have this beaten into me.

Rejoice! You have come face-to-face with one of life's great lessons.
You are in control of your attitude about this.
You will be able to choose how you move forward after this realization.



Pepperband, thank you for those words. I do feel empty, and scared and a little lost too. Like "What do I do now??"

I don't feel joyful, just defeated.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Giving up Control - 04/16/13 06:48 PM
You are alive. Be joyful for that.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Giving up Control - 04/16/13 08:28 PM
Originally Posted By: Pepperband
You are alive. Be joyful for that.


Absolutely!
Posted By: Pineneedle Re: Giving up Control - 04/18/13 01:07 PM
I'm sorry RQ!

If you feel you have done everything you can and kiss is just not putting in the effort to make you the center of his life, then it is time to let go, it is time to put the effort in your happiness.

You can't control Kiss, you can't control his actions, but you can control yourself and your actions. You can strive for your own happiness, and your children need to see you happy. It is not a marriage at all cost. It should be a marriage of happiness.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Giving up Control - 04/18/13 01:41 PM
Thanks pineneedle. I just haven't figured out how to shift focus yet. Kind of in limbo right now.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Giving up Control - 04/21/13 04:00 PM
Kiss and I just got back from the poconos. It was nice to get away for a little while. But it was also kinda weird.

Last time we went to the poconos was December 10, 2011. The morning before we left, kiss had sent a text to his skank that I will never forget " miss you so much. I can't sleep at night, all I do is think about you." Yes, that text is ingrained in my brain. That was my first indication that kiss was involved in what I thought was an EA and I was going to plan A big time on our weekend trip. Which I did a pretty good job at.

So, it was nice but also brought up some bad memories.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Giving up Control - 04/21/13 11:14 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Kiss and I just got back from the poconos. It was nice to get away for a little while. But it was also kinda weird.

Last time we went to the poconos was December 10, 2011. The morning before we left, kiss had sent a text to his skank that I will never forget " miss you so much. I can't sleep at night, all I do is think about you." Yes, that text is ingrained in my brain. That was my first indication that kiss was involved in what I thought was an EA and I was going to plan A big time on our weekend trip. Which I did a pretty good job at.

So, it was nice but also brought up some bad memories.




Reminds me of playing survival horror video games, and seeing messages scrawled on the wall in blood - the image just burned in there.... seetheing.


I never got to catch any of that content.


The worst one I ever got to see was a text to her sister;


"HHH looked at the phone records online, and saw how much I was texting Douchenozzle. He couldn't see what they said, but I'm sooooooo busted!"




There are others burned in there.




So, the question remains; do I allow that to rule the rest of my life, or move forward?



And it's not all rainbows and unicorns all the time, either.

The little weasel that manages the meat department decided to randomly text my wife;

"Hi NGB! [Produce Manager] gave me your number and [Girlfriend] said I could text you!"

Next was a picture of Weasel and NGB's department manager with the comment;

"We're getting married, aren't we a cute couple?"


I found the little thread a few weeks ago when I did a random phone check. I hit the roof (though, she was asleep).


I was actually starting to post about it and she woke up and came out to check on me.


Funny thing is, this weasel was shacking up with an old friend of hers, and cheating with a bagger girl at her former store - her old friend came down and laid a beating on her in the parking lot.

And she thinks I'm going to be ok with him texting my wife?

She thinks I'm OK with any male texting her?


Yeah, I was pissed.

I grabbed her phone, brought up the thread, and stated; I am not cool with this, at all.

And then I continue to watch - added Weasel's number to my watchlist.

And I continue to keep my side of the street clean.



Vigilance, sister. Vigilance.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Giving up Control - 04/21/13 11:39 PM
I hear you, HHH.

It's scary that waywards still do stuff after all this time and don't realize that we aren't ok with it. Kiss brought up that his manager thinks that all the managers should go to a local theme park together as a "team building" exercise and kiss told her that he thought I would be ok with it(!) Seriously?
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Giving up Control - 04/22/13 03:31 AM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
I hear you, HHH.

It's scary that waywards still do stuff after all this time and don't realize that we aren't ok with it. Kiss brought up that his manager thinks that all the managers should go to a local theme park together as a "team building" exercise and kiss told her that he thought I would be ok with it(!) Seriously?



The response I got on the call out is "Oh, I put a stop to that right away." Which was true, the messages were about a week old and the only response was "you guys are stupid."


However, it was a break from the norm that had been established, in any numbers out of the ordinary popping up, she would tell me well ahead of my ever seeing them.


Thoughtless? Sure. For our case, 3 years out it might also be a little bit of selective memory and FWW comfort. But, it was still an issue to address. It was a border crossing.


So, I addressed it simply; "I am not cool with this, at all."

And, that's where my job ends.

Though, when she brought me dinner tonight (got called into work... why did I want to be a nurse again?) I told her straight up that I don't like the weasel, that he walks and talks like a weasel.

Funny thing is, I've had his GF in as a nursing student, and will again in the fall. Chick ain't gonna text me. My coworkers know if it ain't a med, procedure, or trying to call me in, don't text me. We ain't buddies!
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Giving up Control - 04/22/13 08:44 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Kiss brought up that his manager thinks that all the managers should go to a local theme park together as a "team building" exercise and kiss told her that he thought I would be ok with it(!) Seriously?


This made me think of a post Mulan had made about workplace affairs and how "team building" is a big redflag

What You Must Know About Workplace Adultery

Originally Posted By: Mulan
Beware, beware, beware of any company, large or small, that does any of the following:

2) Has any such garbage like "Teambuilding".


Originally Posted By: Mulan

Here's the real bottom line. Nobody can make money for their company if they're home with the spouse and kids. They can only make money for the company if they're in the workplace and/or traveling on the road.

So, how do we keep employees happy to spend 12-14 hour days in the workplace and happy to stay on the road for days or weeks at a time, month after month after month?

Well, you could pay them a whole lot more, but that gets pricey after a while.

You could do what places like Google and Microsoft and Apple do, and build loads of recreational areas in the workplace that the employees can all use for free. But that's expensive, too.

Or you could do the cheapest possible thing to keep your employees at work and on the road: Build a corporate culture that resembles high school and let the employees date each other.

<snip>

Anyway: It is 100% in the company's best interest to keep the employees at work/on the road as much as it possibly can.

Creating a high-school environment where everybody is single and the employees are free to date each other is the cheapest and most effective way to do that.

Of course, they don't call it "dating". They call it some bullcrap name like "Teambuilding". All the employees are encouraged to "Team Build" with each other by "getting to know each other personally, as people and not just as co-workers."

(I'm not kidding about this. I wish I was.)

You can "Team Build" by going to lunch together, going to off-site company functions and awards banquets together (NO SPOUSES ALLOWED EVER - WE'RE WORKING HERE) and, of course, traveling together.

XWH was the very best "Team Builder" ever. Of course, as I know now, he only did "Teambuilding" with the hot flirty chicks, but hey, it sure kept him at work for very long hours and happy to go on the road any time for his Company.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Giving up Control - 04/22/13 08:55 PM
SusieQ, thanks for that link.I really appreciate you taking the time to find it and post it here for me. The post by Mulan sounds exactly like Kiss' old store where his affair bloomed. Lots of flirting and loose boundaries going on with a manager that turned a blind eye to it.
His current manager knows why he was transferred and would understand kiss not participating. What bothers me is kiss not seeing why he SHOULD not participate.

PS. Just read the first few paragraphs and it reminded me of what a complete Pain in the A$$ it was to get skanky ho's last name. I knew her first name (sort of) and what department she was in. But no one would give me or anyone who I had call, her last name. It still baffles me that they were protecting her like she was in the Witness Protection program or something. Which was silly because she had a business card right on her counter that had her full and complete name on it. wink
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Giving up Control - 04/23/13 02:39 PM
We stopped by the "old" house yesterday to pick up our mail (I have mentioned I hate going there, didn't I??). When we got back home, there were 2 huge envelopes for us containing the "Motion for Foreclosure" paperwork. Can you believe it? I have been out of that house for 14 months now and they still haven't foreclosed on it. $1600x14 months= $22400 rent I could have saved if I hadn't had to leave my home. Bah!

Anyway, in the paperwork, is a paper that the process server filled out decribing me when she dropped off the summons. I was slightly upset and triggered but I commented how she (favorably) misjudged my age and weight. Kiss asked when that was that I was served and I said January 14, 2012 (remembering how absent he was at that time and that he was just days away from being plan B'd). All I got was silence from Kiss. No empathy, no validation of how hard that must of been for me, no acknowledgement of how hard seeing those papers were at that moment.

Anyway, it hurt.

As his silence usually does.

Sometimes his "I'm sorry" hurts worse.
Posted By: StrongerMe Re: Giving up Control - 04/23/13 06:31 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
We stopped by the "old" house yesterday to pick up our mail (I have mentioned I hate going there, didn't I??). When we got back home, there were 2 huge envelopes for us containing the "Motion for Foreclosure" paperwork. Can you believe it? I have been out of that house for 14 months now and they still haven't foreclosed on it. $1600x14 months= $22400 rent I could have saved if I hadn't had to leave my home. Bah!

Anyway, in the paperwork, is a paper that the process server filled out decribing me when she dropped off the summons. I was slightly upset and triggered but I commented how she (favorably) misjudged my age and weight. Kiss asked when that was that I was served and I said January 14, 2012 (remembering how absent he was at that time and that he was just days away from being plan B'd). All I got was silence from Kiss. No empathy, no validation of how hard that must of been for me, no acknowledgement of how hard seeing those papers were at that moment.

Anyway, it hurt.

As his silence usually does.

Sometimes his "I'm sorry" hurts worse.




hug
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Giving up Control - 04/24/13 02:36 PM
A short list that I came up with of what I have control of and can improve

1) Self esteem (Always an issue, but worse since his A)

2) Self confidence (Re-establishing belief in myself)

3) Release undeserved guilt

4) Be kinder and more attentive to my kids

5) Increase my focus and concentration (which has gone to the pits since his A)
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: Giving up Control - 04/24/13 02:59 PM
RQ,

Looks like a good list!

And I'm sorry Kiss did not console you with the house papers. I know that feeling. I think, to some degree, with things like that their own guilt and shame gets in the way: they'd rather push those feelings back and forget. Our pain is a reminder - as it should be - but no one likes feeling bad. The trick (on his part) is to get past guilt and to be resolved - to doing the best he can to make it right.

Your job is to tell him what it is you need - when you need it! Did you say, "I could really use a hug (or whatever) right now?" Yes - I know you would rather him just respond appropriately - see that you're hurting and support you - BTDT, bought a million t-shirts. The more you tell him or demonstrate what you need in the moment, the better he will be able to support you in the right ways in the future.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Giving up Control - 04/24/13 03:02 PM
RQ, it would be useful to tie "drivers" to each of your goals. For example:

Improve self-confidence by
- attaining certification in a skill useful at work
- taking an academic course (and Ace it)
- laying out and planting a vegetable garden
- learning to play an instrument

Do you see where I'm going?
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Giving up Control - 04/24/13 03:15 PM
Originally Posted By: NeverGuessed
RQ, it would be useful to tie "drivers" to each of your goals. For example:

Improve self-confidence by
- attaining certification in a skill useful at work
- taking an academic course (and Ace it)
- laying out and planting a vegetable garden
- learning to play an instrument

Do you see where I'm going?


I certainly do!
Vague goals are not measurable.
Precise goals can be measured.
Precise goals with a defined finish line are forward-driving. You know when you are making progress and when you are stalling.
Goals without a defined finish line are a set-up for failure & frustration.
People who want to stall (and wait) choose imprecise goals.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Giving up Control - 04/24/13 04:07 PM
NG and pepperband, that was my next step! List out the how now that I have a list of whats.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Giving up Control - 04/24/13 05:24 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
NG and pepperband, that was my next step! List out the how now that I have a list of whats.



Good.

Make it simple.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Giving up Control - 04/24/13 11:05 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
We stopped by the "old" house yesterday to pick up our mail (I have mentioned I hate going there, didn't I??). When we got back home, there were 2 huge envelopes for us containing the "Motion for Foreclosure" paperwork. Can you believe it? I have been out of that house for 14 months now and they still haven't foreclosed on it. $1600x14 months= $22400 rent I could have saved if I hadn't had to leave my home. Bah!

Anyway, in the paperwork, is a paper that the process server filled out decribing me when she dropped off the summons. I was slightly upset and triggered but I commented how she (favorably) misjudged my age and weight. Kiss asked when that was that I was served and I said January 14, 2012 (remembering how absent he was at that time and that he was just days away from being plan B'd). All I got was silence from Kiss. No empathy, no validation of how hard that must of been for me, no acknowledgement of how hard seeing those papers were at that moment.

Anyway, it hurt.

As his silence usually does.

Sometimes his "I'm sorry" hurts worse.






Think about this, RQ.


To me, those high-voltage moments are absolutely inconsolable. While everything inside you is screaming "Say something, you idiot!" You know that there is nothing he can say that will change the past. Nothing he can say in that moment that can take that away.


I would often try to disappear in these moments. And NGB... wouldn't just go the hell away.


But, it wasn't words. Words couldn't do much.


I didn't want her to freaking touch me...


But... she was there. She was present. And she was willing to weather the hell that she created.


That is what you are looking for. That he won't shrink and run from the horror that he unleashed.


He has to be there.


And when that moment passes, he has to step it up to improve the present, to improve the future.


I'll give you two examples;

Right after I finally got full disclosure, NGB took the initiative to get us out of the house for a weekend - we went and rented a little cabin in a German-village themed mountain town in our area. For being in one of the most hellish times of my life, that weekend is a bright spot.


Last week, NGB's uncle passed away unexpectedly. That night, I got my butt out of work as early as possible, and took her out to a comedy, then out for late night pie and coffee. A good funny movie, and some IC over good food.


Presence and the present.


Those are the keys.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Giving up Control - 04/25/13 04:19 PM
Originally Posted By: HoldHerHand


Think about this, RQ.


To me, those high-voltage moments are absolutely inconsolable. While everything inside you is screaming "Say something, you idiot!" You know that there is nothing he can say that will change the past. Nothing he can say in that moment that can take that away.


I would often try to disappear in these moments. And NGB... wouldn't just go the hell away.


But, it wasn't words. Words couldn't do much.


I didn't want her to freaking touch me...


But... she was there. She was present. And she was willing to weather the hell that she created.


That is what you are looking for. That he won't shrink and run from the horror that he unleashed.


He has to be there.


And when that moment passes, he has to step it up to improve the present, to improve the future.


I'll give you two examples;

Right after I finally got full disclosure, NGB took the initiative to get us out of the house for a weekend - we went and rented a little cabin in a German-village themed mountain town in our area. For being in one of the most hellish times of my life, that weekend is a bright spot.


Last week, NGB's uncle passed away unexpectedly. That night, I got my butt out of work as early as possible, and took her out to a comedy, then out for late night pie and coffee. A good funny movie, and some IC over good food.


Presence and the present.


Those are the keys.



HHH, you're right. It's like I'm stuck in the midle where words won't do anything and his silence hurts too. Darned if he does and darned if he doesn't, I guess.

But he is here, with me, his kids, in the present. I have to find a way to shove that past into a big closet, lock it up, and focus on that. Why isn't that easy to do?
Posted By: wle2 Re: Giving up Control - 04/26/13 01:37 AM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Originally Posted By: HoldHerHand


Think about this, RQ.


To me, those high-voltage moments are absolutely inconsolable. While everything inside you is screaming "Say something, you idiot!" You know that there is nothing he can say that will change the past. Nothing he can say in that moment that can take that away.


I would often try to disappear in these moments. And NGB... wouldn't just go the hell away.


But, it wasn't words. Words couldn't do much.


I didn't want her to freaking touch me...


But... she was there. She was present. And she was willing to weather the hell that she created.


That is what you are looking for. That he won't shrink and run from the horror that he unleashed.


He has to be there.


And when that moment passes, he has to step it up to improve the present, to improve the future.


I'll give you two examples;

Right after I finally got full disclosure, NGB took the initiative to get us out of the house for a weekend - we went and rented a little cabin in a German-village themed mountain town in our area. For being in one of the most hellish times of my life, that weekend is a bright spot.


Last week, NGB's uncle passed away unexpectedly. That night, I got my butt out of work as early as possible, and took her out to a comedy, then out for late night pie and coffee. A good funny movie, and some IC over good food.


Presence and the present.


Those are the keys.



HHH, you're right. It's like I'm stuck in the midle where words won't do anything and his silence hurts too. Darned if he does and darned if he doesn't, I guess.

But he is here, with me, his kids, in the present. I have to find a way to shove that past into a big closet, lock it up, and focus on that. Why isn't that easy to do?

RQ
The problem with that closet is your mind still holds on to the key.
If we aren't diligent about staying in the present our mind will pull out the key, open that door and rummage around in there.
We all know how dark those closets can be.
I have found that the brighter I make the present the less dark the closet seems if I slip and open it.
You keep making your present as bright as you can!
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Giving up Control - 04/26/13 01:12 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Originally Posted By: HoldHerHand


Think about this, RQ.


To me, those high-voltage moments are absolutely inconsolable. While everything inside you is screaming "Say something, you idiot!" You know that there is nothing he can say that will change the past. Nothing he can say in that moment that can take that away.


I would often try to disappear in these moments. And NGB... wouldn't just go the hell away.


But, it wasn't words. Words couldn't do much.


I didn't want her to freaking touch me...


But... she was there. She was present. And she was willing to weather the hell that she created.


That is what you are looking for. That he won't shrink and run from the horror that he unleashed.


He has to be there.


And when that moment passes, he has to step it up to improve the present, to improve the future.


I'll give you two examples;

Right after I finally got full disclosure, NGB took the initiative to get us out of the house for a weekend - we went and rented a little cabin in a German-village themed mountain town in our area. For being in one of the most hellish times of my life, that weekend is a bright spot.


Last week, NGB's uncle passed away unexpectedly. That night, I got my butt out of work as early as possible, and took her out to a comedy, then out for late night pie and coffee. A good funny movie, and some IC over good food.


Presence and the present.


Those are the keys.



HHH, you're right. It's like I'm stuck in the midle where words won't do anything and his silence hurts too. Darned if he does and darned if he doesn't, I guess.

But he is here, with me, his kids, in the present. I have to find a way to shove that past into a big closet, lock it up, and focus on that. Why isn't that easy to do?


How many hours of UA time did you spend together last week?
How many this week?
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Giving up Control - 04/26/13 01:25 PM
Finally feel like the depression that has had me in that dark place is finally starting to lift, thank goodness!

Jedi, I have no idea, honestly. Though we did take 2 days away last week. I gave up trying to schedule things with kiss. It wasnt being done jointly, so I was getting resentful. Now, I just let it happen if it happens and keep my self occupied if it doesn't. It's all I can control.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Giving up Control - 04/26/13 01:41 PM
If your husband refuses to spend time with you then I suggest you email Dr Harley for advice.
Recovery from an affair can't happen unless his program
Is followed.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Giving up Control - 04/26/13 01:54 PM
Well, I wouldnt say he refuses to spend time with me. Just that he doesn't sit with me to plan it out around his work hours.

I'm pretty sure Dr Harley would advise kiss to change jobs. Kiss is in the driver's.seat to make that happen. But it won't happen soon enough
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Giving up Control - 04/26/13 02:45 PM
Long into the future, when Dr Harley leaves this earth and his body is buried I wonder if they will engrave POJA on his gravestone?

Because he is ALL about POJA.

It sounds like you aren't following the POJA.

In that case email dr Harley and say that the POJA isn't being followed and what do you recommend?

You two are back to your independent lifestyles and your marriage will not improve.

Wouldn't you like to be in love with him?

Have you told kiss, "I feel that we should follow the POJA, can we schedule UA time together and discuss your job this evening?"
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Giving up Control - 04/26/13 02:49 PM
If you want to save your marriage I sugest you email dr Harley TODAY and ask to be on the radio show.
Tell him months have passed and UA TIME is not being spent together and the POJA isn't being followed.

Dr Harley offered to help you and told you to email him with problems.

When I read your husbands and your thread, I picture a truck with a wheel buried in sand and the driver just keeps pushing the gas pedal, spinning the wheel and burying it deeper in sand....

Make today the day you take steps to get this marriage moving on track and right now you need Dr Harley's advice
Posted By: Northwood8900 Re: Giving up Control - 04/26/13 03:33 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
I gave up trying to schedule things with kiss. It wasnt being done jointly, so I was getting resentful. Now, I just let it happen if it happens and keep my self occupied if it doesn't. It's all I can control.


So is April 26, 2013 no different than April 26, 2011?

Are you back where you started? Letting things just happen didn't work well back then and you know they won't work this time, either.

Are you in the marriage for the kids only?
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Giving up Control - 04/26/13 05:05 PM
Jedi and northwood: This is where I was at a week ago
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen

I finally gave up. Gave up on the idea of being able to control anyone but myself. Gave up thinking I can influence or motivate any kind of wanted behavior. It is certainly not easy for me let this go (control freak I am, I guess), but it is also a relief of giving up expectations.
But with that liberation, I feel I have also given up on hope. And that is sad. And I am so disappointed.


I am still feeling that way.

Jedi, I would love to be in love with my husband again. I'll seriously consider e-mailing the Dr but I think I could keep him busy for a month with my questions and my heart just isn't in it right now.

Northwood, much has changed since then. Kiss now makes his family a priority rather than his IB. We do our best to meet each other's needs as much as possible. It's not what I expected our marriage to be like at this point. Not June 16, 2001 when I married him nor on March 7, 2012 when I took him back. But it is better than it was April 26, 2011.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Giving up Control - 04/26/13 05:07 PM
Originally Posted By: wle2

RQ
The problem with that closet is your mind still holds on to the key.
If we aren't diligent about staying in the present our mind will pull out the key, open that door and rummage around in there.
We all know how dark those closets can be.
I have found that the brighter I make the present the less dark the closet seems if I slip and open it.
You keep making your present as bright as you can!


wle2, thanks, I'm trying! Working on that list to make my present brighter.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Giving up Control - 04/26/13 05:13 PM
RQ,
You are making ridiculous excuses for your refusal to reach out to Dr Harley after he previously TOLD YOU to stay in contact with him

If your car wheel is stuck in mud do you call the tow man or do you just keep spinning the wheel and say "well I'd like to call the tow truck but it would take him to long to pull me out"????
Posted By: Northwood8900 Re: Giving up Control - 04/26/13 06:30 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen

Northwood, much has changed since then. Kiss now makes his family a priority rather than his IB. We do our best to meet each other's needs as much as possible. It's not what I expected our marriage to be like at this point. Not June 16, 2001 when I married him nor on March 7, 2012 when I took him back. But it is better than it was April 26, 2011.


Hey RQ,

My post was more of an observation that you guys seem to have lost your momentum and my concern is that your new normal will, eventually, become identical to your old one. And if that's ok with you then, hey, who am I to say otherwise? It just seems to be a shame, that's all.

Any movement from kiss on the workfront? Still working lousy hours and no where near changing positions (Florida)?
Posted By: armymama Re: Giving up Control - 04/26/13 07:16 PM
Emailing Dr. Harley at this point would be a waste of time. He has frequently stated that unless a couple commits to 15-20 hours a week of undivided attention, he will not work with them.

RQ and kiss have never made UA time a priority. They just wonder why they feel bad all the time.


AM
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Giving up Control - 04/26/13 07:17 PM
Originally Posted By: Northwood8900

Hey RQ,

My post was more of an observation that you guys seem to have lost your momentum and my concern is that your new normal will, eventually, become identical to your old one. And if that's ok with you then, hey, who am I to say otherwise? It just seems to be a shame, that's all.

Any movement from kiss on the workfront? Still working lousy hours and no where near changing positions (Florida)?


Northwood, I understand. And you are right, the momentum was lost when I stopped yanking on the rope of that horse. It's a shame but I was getting tired! It's not Ok with me, but I have to to "accept the things I cannot change" and "change the things I can".


Kiss is still working lousy hours though he did call an HR manager down south a couple of days ago but no call back yet.

In the meantime, baseball season has started. Ahhh, baseball season. I got both little ones playing so I'll be spending quite a lot of time at the fields. That will definitely give me something to do while kiss is at work.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Giving up Control - 04/26/13 07:24 PM
Originally Posted By: Jedi_Knight
RQ,
You are making ridiculous excuses for your refusal to reach out to Dr Harley after he previously TOLD YOU to stay in contact with him

If your car wheel is stuck in mud do you call the tow man or do you just keep spinning the wheel and say "well I'd like to call the tow truck but it would take him to long to pull me out"????


Originally Posted By: armymama
Emailing Dr. Harley at this point would be a waste of time. He has frequently stated that unless a couple commits to 15-20 hours a week of undivided attention, he will not work with them.

RQ and kiss have never made UA time a priority. They just wonder why they feel bad all the time.


AM


What she said. cool I'm sure Dr. Harley would say the same. Anyway, I'll keep hanging in there, Jedi.

I'll be Ok
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Giving up Control - 04/26/13 07:35 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Well, I wouldnt say he refuses to spend time with me. Just that he doesn't sit with me to plan it out around his work hours.


I don't understand -- you literally say, KISS, let's sit down and do our UA hours and he says NO?

Or you want him to be the one to approach you to schedule UA time and he doesn't?
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Giving up Control - 04/26/13 07:50 PM
Susie, not quite. When he does give me a schedule, I would fill out the UA sheet from the Romantic Love workbook with what hours he has available, but I would leave the planned activities part blank so that we could POJA activities, only we never planned anything to do. Or I would say, well how about we do this or that and he would say OK. Or I would be looking up stuff on line to do while he did something else. It just seemed too one sided to me and I got frustated.

I would like to sit sown together, write down our UA time and plan activities together. But it doesn't happen.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Giving up Control - 04/26/13 08:10 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
I would like to sit sown together, write down our UA time and plan activities together.


Have you told him this and asked him to set aside time each week to do exactly this? Like each Sunday?
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Giving up Control - 04/26/13 08:32 PM
I have, but I wish he would be more active with it. We don't have a set day or time that we would sit down with it, though, because of his hours.

I can attempt to do that this weekend. I know we have tomorrow night free, not sure what he works on Sunday.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Giving up Control - 04/26/13 08:45 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Susie, not quite. When he does give me a schedule, I would fill out the UA sheet from the Romantic Love workbook with what hours he has available, but I would leave the planned activities part blank so that we could POJA activities, only we never planned anything to do. Or I would say, well how about we do this or that and he would say OK. Or I would be looking up stuff on line to do while he did something else. It just seemed too one sided to me and I got frustated.

I would like to sit sown together, write down our UA time and plan activities together. But it doesn't happen.



It won't happen if you don't do it. You have to actually DO the program in order for it to work.. Writing Dr Harley will not change that fact.

Originally Posted By: Dr Bill Harley

Our program for recovery only works when it's followed. The 15 hours of undivided attention we recommend is an essential part of the program because it provides the opportunity to meet emotional needs that cannot be met any other way. There are lots of excuses for failing to follow that aspect of our program, but in the end, failure to follow it results in a failed recovery.

If we saw that both of you were recovering well, I'd say that you are one of the very rare exceptions to the need to spend 15 hours a week together. But, since you are not recovering well, we can only conclude that your failure to spend enough time together, and make good use of that time meeting each other's emotional needs, is the culprit. http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2619668#Post2619668


Do you and your husband understand that this program doesn't work without this step? Doesn't work....
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Giving up Control - 04/26/13 10:09 PM
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Susie, not quite. When he does give me a schedule, I would fill out the UA sheet from the Romantic Love workbook with what hours he has available, but I would leave the planned activities part blank so that we could POJA activities, only we never planned anything to do. Or I would say, well how about we do this or that and he would say OK. Or I would be looking up stuff on line to do while he did something else. It just seemed too one sided to me and I got frustated.

I would like to sit sown together, write down our UA time and plan activities together. But it doesn't happen.



It won't happen if you don't do it. You have to actually DO the program in order for it to work.. Writing Dr Harley will not change that fact.

Originally Posted By: Dr Bill Harley

Our program for recovery only works when it's followed. The 15 hours of undivided attention we recommend is an essential part of the program because it provides the opportunity to meet emotional needs that cannot be met any other way. There are lots of excuses for failing to follow that aspect of our program, but in the end, failure to follow it results in a failed recovery.

If we saw that both of you were recovering well, I'd say that you are one of the very rare exceptions to the need to spend 15 hours a week together. But, since you are not recovering well, we can only conclude that your failure to spend enough time together, and make good use of that time meeting each other's emotional needs, is the culprit. http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2619668#Post2619668


Do you and your husband understand that this program doesn't work without this step? Doesn't work....


Exactly why I have given up
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Giving up Control - 04/26/13 11:30 PM
And now kiss just told me that the management (him) will be working 6 days a week for a little while frown
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Giving up Control - 04/27/13 12:40 AM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
And now kiss just told me that the management (him) will be working 6 days a week for a little while frown


Have you sat down and planned your UA time yet? This is not rocket science, Rocketqueen. You sit down with the piece of paper and start writing out dates, times, etc. Then you line up babysitters. This is part of the program.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Giving up Control - 04/27/13 02:57 AM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
Susie, not quite. When he does give me a schedule, I would fill out the UA sheet from the Romantic Love workbook with what hours he has available, but I would leave the planned activities part blank so that we could POJA activities, only we never planned anything to do. Or I would say, well how about we do this or that and he would say OK. Or I would be looking up stuff on line to do while he did something else. It just seemed too one sided to me and I got frustated.

I would like to sit sown together, write down our UA time and plan activities together. But it doesn't happen.



It won't happen if you don't do it. You have to actually DO the program in order for it to work.. Writing Dr Harley will not change that fact.

Originally Posted By: Dr Bill Harley

Our program for recovery only works when it's followed. The 15 hours of undivided attention we recommend is an essential part of the program because it provides the opportunity to meet emotional needs that cannot be met any other way. There are lots of excuses for failing to follow that aspect of our program, but in the end, failure to follow it results in a failed recovery.

If we saw that both of you were recovering well, I'd say that you are one of the very rare exceptions to the need to spend 15 hours a week together. But, since you are not recovering well, we can only conclude that your failure to spend enough time together, and make good use of that time meeting each other's emotional needs, is the culprit. http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2619668#Post2619668


Do you and your husband understand that this program doesn't work without this step? Doesn't work....


Exactly why I have given up



Because KISS needs to take the initiative and remove the largest roadblock to your recovery; the marriage-wrecking hours required by his employer.


I get it. For the past year I worked 6-7 days a week, between 50-70 hours.

I feel like I'm repeating myself here...


Anyway, until he gets a work schedule that compliments your marriage, recovery will not progress.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: Giving up Control - 04/27/13 03:24 AM
HHH, how did you manage to make time for UA? Does your wife participi in scheduling it. Kiss' hours vary from 9-8, 12-11 or 5-4. So its hard to work the time in.

Ps. Your not the only one who feels like they are repeating themself.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Giving up Control - 04/27/13 03:25 AM
So lets say he works 70 hours per week.


168 total hours in a week

70 work
10 to and from work
56 sleep
136

That leaves 32 hours to get in 17 hours of UA time, 10 hours for the kids and 5 hours for himself.

So tell me why you and kiss can't schedule 15+ hours of UA time? Because the only thing lacking I see here is willingness.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Giving up Control - 04/27/13 03:58 AM
RQ, you guys need to make this happen. Even if he has to find another job. His job should complement the marriage, not the other way around. You can't use work hours as an excuse to skip this step. And this is the job of both of you. Both of you together need to figure this out until it is resolved.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Giving up Control - 04/27/13 06:06 AM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
HHH, how did you manage to make time for UA? Does your wife participi in scheduling it. Kiss' hours vary from 9-8, 12-11 or 5-4. So its hard to work the time in.

Ps. Your not the only one who feels like they are repeating themself.




We didn't.

She brought me dinner each night, but we weren't getting the time in. We both work, and our schedules were conflicting.

I did nights last summer, and our UA time was way better, but NGB was not happy with me not being at home in bed at night, so I went back until evenings.

I just got finished with my last regular evening shift, and next week I go to weekend doubles, so I'll potentially be off Mon-Fri.

And I needed to do it, because honestly I'm not in love with my wife right now.

But, I know what we were doing wrong, and I know what I have to do to fix it. So, I pushed for this schedule change until I got it.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Giving up Control - 04/27/13 09:25 AM
70 work
10 to and from work
56 sleep

That leaves 32 hours


That works if his schedule aligns with RQ's, and/or they can make subtle changes to adjust. Not knowing their schedules, let's say K doesn't have to leave until 8:30am for a 10:00am retail start. If RQ is already gone by 7:00am for her job, that's an additional 7.5 hours off their "UA-available" time.

It's NOT easy. It is however, necessary. As the "King" of sadly putting economic initiative ahead of marital care, I cannot urge them too strongly to make UA their number one priority.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Giving up Control - 04/27/13 03:00 PM
Originally Posted By: NeverGuessed
70 work
10 to and from work
56 sleep

That leaves 32 hours


That works if his schedule aligns with RQ's, and/or they can make subtle changes to adjust. Not knowing their schedules, let's say K doesn't have to leave until 8:30am for a 10:00am retail start. If RQ is already gone by 7:00am for her job, that's an additional 7.5 hours off their "UA-available" time.

It's NOT easy. It is however, necessary. As the "King" of sadly putting economic initiative ahead of marital care, I cannot urge them too strongly to make UA their number one priority.


It NEEDS to be their priority if they are serious about saving their marriage. And that is what they are here for, right? Anything that comes BEFORE their marriage will eventually destroy it and in this case that means their jobs. If the job interferes with the marriage, it is time to find a new job that doesn't. I would urge them strongly to do this if they intend on staying married.

But I don't get the sense that RQ is taking this very seriously and is not in the least pro-active. A marriage doesn't recover all by magic.

RQ, have you heard Dr Harley's discussions on the radio about avoiding opposite job shifts? He discussed it on the private forum earlier this month with another couple:

Originally Posted By: Dr Bill Harley

A very important part of a romantic relationship is for a husband and wife to go to sleep and awake together. That way their bodies are coordinated to maximize their energy level as they live their lives as partners. Otherwise they tend to work independently of each other, becoming increasingly incompatible.

When a husband and wife work different shifts, they also have a host of other problems that deeply affect their relationship. So I don't recommend it. If your husband's second shift is so important that he should not give it up, then I advise you to find a second shift to work so that at least you are leaving for work together, coming home together, and living your remaining 8 waking hours together. You would eventually adjust to that way of life so that the most important goals (the quality of your marriage and family), would not be sacrificed for a career.

Even if you were to find a job where you work from home, I'd advise you to do your work during second shift. In other works, you and your husband's sleep-wake cycle should be in sync.

One word of caution, however. People who work second or third shifts try to adjust to normal living on weekends, which gets their physiology all messed up on an ongoing basis. I'd advise you to get used to getting up at noon every day, even on weekends.
here
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Giving up Control - 04/27/13 03:03 PM
Rocketqueen, this needs to stay on the front burner until it is resolved. I honestly thought you were seriously working the program. What happened here?
Posted By: DidntQuit Re: Giving up Control - 04/28/13 12:26 AM
Originally Posted By: Rocketqueen
HHH, how did you manage to make time for UA? Does your wife participi in scheduling it. Kiss' hours vary from 9-8, 12-11 or 5-4. So its hard to work the time in.

Ps. Your not the only one who feels like they are repeating themself.



I hope it's okay if I give some ideas here.
A long time ago I read on the board that sometimes the BS needs to push the habits even though you would think that the WS would do it for JC. My partner refused to schedule things with me over the liferime of our marriage. I pushed the planning meeting for a long time, even though I resentedneeding to. But after doing it, we both saw how much better our weeks went and how much more of a team we were. Also, without the planning you will not have good dates which meet the needs. Skill with planning will also make Kiss a better employee and need meeter because he will start to think ahead. Your UA