I am having trouble working on recovery with my WH because of the pain and fear that I am still dealing with. We are not living together right now. I had to leave my home with my 3 kids due to his continuous cake eating and stress it brought to the family. He is living in a friend's condo where he had brought the OW to.
He has written the NC letter and it has been sent, I have access to his cell phone records as well as to his car and condo, and he has been given my list of requirements in order for our marriage to move forward. But I feel we are stuck.
I find it difficult to meet his EN's and the UA time with these conditions, however I am nowhere ready to allow him access to my home yet. I am stubborn about keeping this boundary until I feel that he has earned it and I have not seen that from him yet.
I also struggle with the problems that his A has caused with our families. His parents and sisters seem to want little to do with me and I am not confident that they know the truth of our circumstances. I have talked to his parents but don't feel that they believe me. My parents and family live locally and they do not want anything to do with him because of his disrepect to me and my family. I feel that family gatherings are a thing of the past because of this. I also feel guilty when I am with him because I feel like I am betraying them.

I would very much like to call the coaching center to speak to one of the Harley's and get their take on my situation. Until then, would anyone care to weigh in? I do not want to continue much longer in this limbo as it has been mentally and physically exhausting for me.

Thanks

What is your list of requirements?

What do you mean by stuck?


How will you measure his "earning it"?



BTW, I'm very supportive of the coaching center..... They are the main reason our recovery proceeded successfully.

Herpapabear, my list of requirements was thanks to you and sexymamabear

-No Contact letter (done and mailed by me)
-Change cell phone number or block skank's (done)
-Give me access to cell phone account info to see calls and texts made(done)
-Provide me with copies of keys to car and condo (done)
-Allow me to receive residential custody of kids (not done - he is fighting me on that one)
-Own your own choices and the consequences they caused (to me, children and family) Not seeing this yet
-Apologize for the affair and the hurt it has caused (to me, children, family) to me he has but not to anyone else
-Begin Independent counseling (started)
-Participate in marriage counseling (have not started yet)
-STD test (not done)

Agree to abide by forever (EPs):
-Protect my feelings above all else (yes-he has agreed)
- Not participate in any one-on-one meetings with anyone of the opposite sex (yes)
-Not discuss any personal issues with anyone of the opposite sex (yes)
- Agree to POJA for any and all decisions (I myself am a little fuzzy on this and need to read more about POJA)
-Be open and honest to me at all times about past and future
(how do i trust him???)
-Make my phone calls your priority by answering them or returning them as soon as possible (yes)
- Trade phones with me at any time, no questions asked (yes, but has yet to do that)
-Leave phone accessible to me at all times (yes, but we don't live together so I do not have access to the phone)
-Commit to at least 15 hours of UA per week (again, we don't live together so this is hard to do)
-If Skank finds a a way to contact you, immediately end contact and notify me
-Anything else that I decide to be a boundary


I feel stuck because we do not seem to be moving forward. He is remorseful and wants to make me feel better...but I don't.

Rocket - I'm a little confused, or maybe I missed something. (I've had a crazy, busy week...I might have not seen updates to your SAA thread.)

So, does this mean H was willing to meet all your requirements and did so AND sent the NC letter? He's willing to do everything you've asked for recovery?

If so, I am not sure I understood the stuck part - it doesn't sound like he's willing to do everything if you are not feeling safe and don't feel like he's earning his way back.

These things take time, sure. But...it's awfully hard to recover a marriage when you aren't in the same home. I'm not saying he should move in prematurely - he MUST be doing EVERYTHING you've asked to earn his way back in. But - if you've read SAA, you know that Dr. H recommends as much time together as possible in early recovery - even to the point of taking some time away, just the two of you.

It's important to guard yourself from false recovery. It's hard for me to get a grip on exactly where you're at with the gap of missing information.

The most important thing you can do is contact MB and set up some coaching appointments.

Do this ASAP!

It's mission critical!

Your H cannot accomplish nor understand all of this without their help. The best part is YOU won't have to teach him, they will do it all!

His willingness or lack of willingness to do the coaching will tell you a great deal.

Is this even relevant if he is going to come home and you restore the marriage?


This may take more than a few weeks time!


This will require some work on his part and won't happen overnight.

I'd recommend you being present during all apologies to insure his disclosures.


IMVHO, this is the only item on your list that is a bad idea!

SMB removed this requirement from her list after thinking about it and realizing she would never know what bull was being spewed or fed by or to me.

You must have a plan to sit down and discuss all the historical timelines about the A. When you are confident you have the truth written down, you ask questions again and again to see if the answers change or stay the same..... You'll know very quickly!

The items in red seem to be important but not satisfied.

Perhaps that is why you are stuck...do you think that he is just doing the bare minimum to get by and not really sorry about what happened? That you're the one doing all the hard work and he is just coasting along?

If it were me, I would tell him to prove his sincerity and prove to you that you should stay married to him. If/when he asks how to do that, tell him it's his problem to figure out.

He figured out how to get you to marry him once, he should be able to figure out how to get you to stay married to him.

He should also contact your family and apologize for being a dumbsh*t son-in-law.

Feelings follow actions!

It's critical that you and H follow a guide through the devastation that's been left behind. MB Coaching Center will be that guide, just as it was for us.

The correct actions will lead to the feelings of love occurring.

But, only time, combined with these correct actions, will allow you to feel better about your marriage.

Recovery is a narrow path. Only those that follow that path have successful, loving marriages..... Otherwise what you will have is a crippled marriage.

Though I understand what fuels this comment, it's not helpful to the state of the marriage nor to recovery.

The correct statement would be; "I can't help you with these things, as it causes me too much pain, this is why we are going to do the MB Coaching Center"

This is why the coaching center is so valuable!
They will help him figure it out!

They helped me figure it out and led us toward a successful recovery. They prevented me from making mistakes that would have caused my dear wife more pain.

Sunny, He is willing to do all of the requirements but has not done all of them. Which is why I am not ready to let him move in. But it hard for us to spend so much time together when we are living apart, I am still hurting and also afraid of a false recovery.

I was called on this as well, and didn't realize that IC was a bad idea. I have already heard some cr@p that his IC has said and was not happy about it. I would much rather he speak to the coaching center but the cost is a small concern as well as phone counseling. I will urge him to give it a try.

I am a little confused: if he has not yet met your requirements, why are you trying to do anything toward recovery, yet?

I do think that he doing the bare minimum to get by but not due to fog but more due to not knowing what to do. He has posted a few times here but has not been as committed as I had hoped.

I agree with the rest

I am confused. How would I be a partner in our recovery if I was not in his life to insure that the requirements are being taken care of? We are not living together right now and we are trying to see if we can have a better marriage then we had pre-A before we do live together again.

I do understand the cost concerns.

But here's the thing;

It's usually only necessary to have approx 6 sessions together. You can pre-purchase at a discount, buying in units.

It's so minimal of a cost when compared to a divorce and the lifetime expenses associated with divorces.

It's the only successful plan I've seen that specializes in "Recovering From Infidelity".

The list goes on...........

If he hasn't met all of your requirements, yet, then he is not even doing the bare minimum.

He has to demonstrate that the NC, remorse and transparency requirements have been met before you move back in with him, and also that he has set up coaching with the MB coaching centre. There are several things like that that ME MUST DO before you go back to him, and it is up to him to prove to you that they have been done.

Only when they are done do you allow him back home in order to work on other aspects of recovery - like UA time to have a better marriage than before.

Do not "urge him to give it a try". Make it a condition of reconciliation and do not allow him to move home until you have both had some sessions (separately) with the coaching centre - which he has set up and pre-paid.

He has to make this happen!

DO NOT URGE!
It is part of your requirements!

Specifically - the last one..... ! (-Anything else that I decide to be a boundary)

Either you have the control in recovery decisions, such as counseling and your requirements being met, or move to plan B.

HerPapaBear- thank you, I truly do believe that the MB coaching is exactly what we both need and will speak to him about it.

Markos- yes, there is much to be done and I will not stay in limbo waiting for it. Me and my family deserve more than crumbs.

Sugarcane- I totally agree. I will keep the boundary of our (mine and the children's) home intact and the admission prive VERY HIGH!!

.

And that's what seems to be missing here. Unless he's ringing your phone off the hook begging to be given another chance and you just didn't mention it?

Why hasn't he taken the STD test?

LOL, you both said the same thing about urging. I will tell him that it is non-negotiable.
If the requirements are not met within a certain time period, then I will head right to plan D.

I believe this information has already been given to you but I will try again.

It was a mistake to come out of Plan B when your WS did not agree to the requirements you had given him. I highly recommend you call Dr Harley on the radio show and/or call the coaching center to take the next step. You are basically in Plan C which is most likely to lead to D.


What Are Plan A & Plan B

He did beg me for a chance and that is what I am giving him, a chance to prove he is serious.

Good question about the STD test, I got mine done last week and I wasn't the one who messed around with a skank

Thank you, Susie. I am sending the coaching center an e-mail right now for an appointment.

What is Plan C?

Yes, but what is the answer?

SC- he is a big baby and is afraid of needles. Seriously

Did he really say that?

I mean, seriously?

Insist on the test and see if he gets mad or indignant in response.

I will insist on the test.
I will insist on the coaching center.
Thank you for the advice!!

I would call Dr Harley as well. The radio show is a wonderful resource that frankly I don't understand why more people don't take more advantage of.


You are not in Plan A or B and also not in Recovery = Plan C.


From this thread: BS's Plan C is NOT a plan!

The problem with giving requirements and not following through is that your WS now knows that he can get you to back down.

Don't bother stating that as a boundary unless you are willing to follow through.

Susie, thank you for that and the link. I will follow through on the test requirement.

RQ - my H and i are using the coaching center (going on 6 years post dday). it is the best money we have ever spent. no wishy-washy psychobable, but a solid, achieveable plan that allows the BS (and the m) to truly heal. 6 appts. the money we spent on a MC after dday was money down the toilet, and that was 6 MONTHS, not 6 appts.

i don't see the hold up here. he takes an afternoon off work, you both go to the dr together, where he gets to explain he's there because he's been a dumb**. he then gets to have a (small) pole shoved up his hoohah. (now if that's not JC, i don't know what is, lol). who gives a crap if he's scared of needles? tough patootie for him (but for heaven's sake, don't tell him to man up. let your dr do it!). then you both attend the phone appt with SH, which i hope you have already made. he will be sent his own email with instructions, and he if doesn't do what he's supposed to for the appt, SH will make no bones about it.

if he does those things, your initial list will be complete, yes? you can allow him into the home based on that good faith, and start healing your marriage.

some of your other items will take more time, and come as the recovery is in process. he's got to come out of the fog, and you guys need to bond again. this is hardest on you, i'm sorry for that, but that's the reality of marital recovery. SH will help you through this.

of course, there's always the chance that he won't do these 2 things, yes. we BSs have no control over that. it's one of the hardest things to handle, or at least it was for me. but no matter where it gets you in the end, you'll have made some kind of progress and won't feel so "stuck."

Letty, thank you so much for your informative post. Everything you said makes sense and sounds so simple. I realize now that recovery takes time, but there has been no reason for him to drag his feet on the STD test and the phone counseling. Unless he doesn't really mean he "will do whatever it takes". As you said, I can't control what he does. I can only control my reaction to it.
I appreciate your words!

~RQ

I think I'm going to keep score on how many false recoveries are preceded by the wayward not wanting to do the STD test.

I mean come on, the needle is more important then the marriage? What a bunch of bull.

Well, due to my WH having an issue with our court dates (did he really think I would just drop them??) and believing that this will cause our marriage to over, I am cutting off contact with him, again.
His sense of entitlement and "poor me" attitude is jaw-dropping. He doesn't realize that I am the one giving him a chance, not the other way around. I am the one in the driver's seat. If this will cause us to be "done", then so be it...

I think the key here is that you have let him have control of the vehicle through all of this by dropping plan B every time he APPEARED to be coming around. When you get serious, perhaps he might. Of course he thought you would just drop the court dates...you haven't given him any reason to think you'd stick to any of the requirements thus far.

He's still cake-eating.

You are in false recovery zone right now. Believe me, I know how it is - I was there. Before I discovered my H's affair (I had suspicions, but no proof for awhile) I was sucked in several times when my H appeared to be "working on the marriage" but was really just cake-eating. For me, it was a different story once I discovered the A: there was no way I was going to allow cake-eating after that! When the WS knows you know about the A and you still allow them to eat cake you are basically telling them, "I don't respect myself enough to put a stop to it. Therefore, you don't have to respect me either." When they don't respect you, they can't be in love with you.

Is your WH Kiss on the "Surviving an Affair" forum? If so, you aren't anywhere near in recovery. I think you should have this thread moved over there.

ba

beginagain- yes, it is and you are right. We aren't in recovery yet. I believe that I need to be able to "forgive" him in some way in order to work on our marriage. And I have not seen remorse for what he has put me and his family through to forgive him yet.

I hope that other posters can help him. For now, I will let this thread die...

Forgiveness, for me, was (and still is) a process. It isn't a magical thing that just happens. (Maybe from God, because of grace, when repentance is there.) But true repentance must be there in the marriage as well. The WS earns forgiveness from you when they start giving you just compensation for what you've been through - by proving they are willing to do whatever it takes to save the marriage.

I will say this: in my instance my husband knew I was also willing to do whatever it took to make our marriage great - that we would be in it (recovery) together - but it was on him to first prove that he'd done the heavy lifting. I had to know I was no longer dealing with the wayward mindset.

Exactly! Thank you SunnyD for putting my feelings into words

The child support hearing went really well and we were able to do it in such a way that it was agreeable to both of us. My WH even "got" that going through with the hearing was reassurance for me. I feel that he understands it was for the sake and benefit of his children.
He even got his STD test and my results are all negative!!
Feeling very positive now about how things are going. Like I told him "It's a good start!"

Glad you had a good day RQ.

I knew that my family would be an issue while my WH and I attempt to repair our marriage but I didn't think things would be this bad. This is a part of an e-mail from my mother today
He "blames me for the exposure, throwing him out, etc. but that's okay, since I have now seen what he is really like I don't want him in my life at all. I hope you work things out with him if that is what you want but me & Dad are done with him. I know there are families where certain members hate each other and successfully avoid each other. It will not be easy and of course isn't the ideal circumstance but it can be done.And neither you or me should accept any blame for it, this all a fallout from his bad behavior. Plus, like he said, he has always hated me even before this. Wish I had known that before...."

I'm at a lost at how to handle this. Now I feel like I don't only have my own healing to deal with but my mother's as well. And in the meantime, WH has not posted here in like 5 days even though he said he was committed to checking in here every day..

Thoughts?

There's not much you can do about your mother, other than tell her that you understand her feelings and appreciate the support that she voiced with regards to you and WH reconciling.

This may be hard to hear.

If you and H do reconcile and your mother still feels this way, then your H comes first.

Knowing that he feels that way about your mother, if you reconcile you have to be OK with her not really being a part of your family life, and that means your life in general.

So, if you do reconcile and she refuses to come around, you have to tell her,"Ok, see you when you change your mind"

A big tenet of MB is the marriage comes first, before kids, friends and family, jobs, etc.

Still no "heavy lifting" on his part. He has not called the coaching center. He actually said to me last night "I wish we could forget about this and put it behind us"...of course after my look of dismay, he quickly changed it to "I know that we can't".
So sorry this is so difficult for YOU, honey!!
Maybe it would be less painful for both of us if we put it behind us and go our separate ways.

Again, he probably is still reacting to the fact that you haven't forced heavy lifting on his part because you never went into Plan B and never required him to use the IM, etc... He never got the sense that you seriously meant any of what you said.

All WS's wish it could just be forgotten, I'm sure. He has to want to do the work because he wants your marriage to be different. The fact that he is looking at it as if it is penance shows the fog is still there. When he wants your relationship to be truly great, he will want to know how to do that.

Has he read any of the materials?

SunnyD, I agree with you. We have out custody court in 3 weeks so I have set a time limit on how much longer I'll be strung along.
He has asked me how to make things better and I have pointed him here. But no, he has not read any of the materials, he has only posted a few times and like I said, hasn't called the coaching center. It makes me feel that he doesn't think our marriage is worth the effort. I also believe that he doesn't want to do the effort because he doesn't know if I am invested in the marriage. I'm not feeling invested because he is not doing the work. A vicious cycle that only HE can break.
The next time I do Plan B, it will be accompanied with divorce papers. I'm done playing around

I'm re-reading SAA and came across this passage in the chapter "Preparing for marital recovery"

"Instead of focusing their attention on the mistakes of the past, I encourage couples to focus on the present and the future. They should NOT dwell on the affair but focus on rebuilding their marriage"

So now I am confused. How does a BS NOT dwell on the affair? And he doesn't mention "just compensation" in the book either.

Thoughts?

Well, the BS will still have thoughts, memories, and triggers that diminish with time, hopefully. The not dwelling part though is where you choose to not beat your spouse up about it and talk about it, etc... You manage your thoughts the best you can. Of course, it's hard to put it behind you when you haven't even truly started down the road to recovery properly yet. That has to happen before you can "put it behind you" so to speak.

As for the just compensation, it may be that it's mentioned here on the site (in an article) or in a radio segment, or even in another book.

Dr. H isn't saying "lets just forget about this and move on," in other words. You change the behaviors; you put secure measure in place; you commit (and act on) the plan of recovery. THEN you leave it in the past, etc...

If my memory is correct I believe I've heard Dr. H said that in the rewrite of SAA with his daughter Dr. Jennifer Harley Chalmers, they are going to add a section/chapter about just compensation.
For now it is here.keep[/ you suffering. In your case, the affair is probably over, but has your [husband [taken precautions to never see or talk to his ex-lover again?

Having problems with my quoting tonight. The Dr. H quote that I posted above is here in this article.

Just compensation found here in this article.
Can we just forgive and forget? Letter#1

Aaargh! I lost my whole post so here goes again...

Thanks for your input. I had read that article so was confused when I read that in SAA...am I looking for action on his part or am I supposed to be nor "dwelling" on it (jeez I do't like that word!). I did see that my book was from 1998 so that explains it!

I went back and read herpapabears list of EP's and somewhere on there I cam across a post by SusieQ that helped a lot! I hope she doesn't mind me quoting her thread


"We are still working with Steve. We are moving from the "Protection" phase to the "Connection" phase of coaching.

Just to recap: The protection phase included my H
a) working with SH to fully understand why the A happened and take 100% responsibility for it and convey this to me
b) change his belief system re how to protect himself from another A (this included looking at his own top ENs and looking at what ENs OW met and how he let that happen) and
c) complete an EP list that we were both satisfied with.
Oh, and SH has reiterated to both of us that it is 100% OK for me to snoop. My H has 100% changed his attitude/defensiveness about this.

Steve said my H needs to review his EP list with me regularly (weekly) or so for the time being to assure me that he understands it and knows what is on there.

So for anyone in Recovery who is stuck, just wanted to share what Steve reiterated to me in our last session... He basically said his experience is couples get stuck in R when they haven't successfully complete the Protection Phase that I outlined above, that they tend not to do well in the Connection Phase (Meeting ENs/avoiding LBers) as the BS doesn't really feel safe."

This is exactly where kiss and I are at and I hope we can work on our "protection" phase so we can move on to the "connection" phase.

I still haven't heard from the radio program so I think it's time to make that call to the coaching center.

Ask the MODS to send an email to the Harleys.

We've had a few posters not hearing back.

Yes call the coaching center.

Just got an e-mail that my question will be on the radio today. I'll have to wait until I get home to listen though.

I haven't had a chance to listen yet. What did he say?
Also what segment is it in?

I'm finally listening now, it's in the last segment. I'm patiently (not) waiting to get to that part. hahaha

Dr Harley's advice was that as long as the affair is over, I am willing to work on the marriage and that all EP's are in place, then I should invite him to live in our home. Then we would continue with transparency, UA and other MB concepts.

I think it is important that I get all requirements done first and then move onto that...

thoughts? I value everyone's advice! Thanks so much

What are your requirements?

Does your WH know them?

Yes, ALL of the EP's must be in place! Of course, there are some that will be "to be continued..." but they should be set up and a plan of action to keep them in play.

Did he say that your H must also be willing to do the work and 100% committed to a recovery plan?

That's what is big in my mind: you need to know that your H is now of a mindset that it's you and him - against the world - fighting for this marriage, above everything else: no more IBs, etc...

Sunny, no I was surprised that he didn't mention what kiss had to do and I was hoping he would. But I do know that kiss is willing to do the work. We need to sit and talk about his EP's and go over the other requirements.
We also plan on sitting down with kids this weekend and having a talk with them (own the consequences and apologize part).
Moving forward......

Can you two drop the MC and call the coaching center?

I posted this on kiss's thread but thought you'd like it also.
EP's by HerPapaBear
Requirements for Recovery From an Affair

Maybe have kiss write the show himself? Dr.H is always wanting the other spouse to contact him.

BH- These are the requirements I have given to kiss


-No Contact letter (done and mailed by me)
-Change cell phone number or block skank's (done)
-Give me access to cell phone account info to see calls and texts made(done)
-Provide me with copies of keys to car and condo (done)
-Allow me to receive residential custody of kids (not done - he is fighting me on that one and if I see action on his part, I will dismiss the petition)

-Own your own choices and the consequences they caused (to me, children and family) Not seeing this yet
-Apologize for the affair and the hurt it has caused (to me, children, family) to me he has but not to anyone else
-Begin Independent counseling (started)
-Participate in marriage counseling
-STD test (done)
Agree to abide by forever (EPs):
-Protect my feelings above all else (yes-he has agreed)
- Not participate in any one-on-one meetings with anyone of the opposite sex (yes)
-Not discuss any personal issues with anyone of the opposite sex (yes)
- Agree to POJA for any and all decisions
-Be open and honest to me at all times about past and future (he said yes-but how do i trust him???)
-Make my phone calls your priority by answering them or returning them as soon as possible (yes)
- Trade phones with me at any time, no questions asked (yes, but has yet to do that)
-Leave phone accessible to me at all times (yes, but we don't live together so I do not have access to the phone)
-Commit to at least 15 hours of UA per week (again, we don't live together so this is hard to do)
-If Skank finds a a way to contact you, immediately end contact and notify me
-Anything else that I decide to be a boundary

I will also require a constant show of remorse, humility, honesty, repentance, and constant reassurance. (???)

I would like to call the coaching center for at least one session as the price is a concern, although I know it would be well worth it!

Did he listen to the radio show with your question?

I don't believe so, he might have trouble with it. I know mine downloaded to my itunes and I couldn't fast forward through it.
I'm still learning the other parts of the site so I'm sure HE will have trouble, lol

I finally heard your question on the radio show.

Are you going to let kiss move back like Dr. Harley suggested? Have you confirmed NC with the OW?

Dr. Harley says you need to jump all in with all "four feet"??

LOL - whose four feet was he talking about?? I had someone else say that I need to take a "leap of faith" and then 2 other people told me not to rush it. That I don't need to make that decision right now. So I have to figure out what I feel in my gut.

We have talked about him moving in and talked with the kids last night about it. We are hoping soon but I'm not ready just yet. I don't know, it's hard. I still have that fear in me. I would like him to call the coaching center and e-mail the MB radio, and post here more.

I also have no way of confirming complete NC with OW because I know she can always call him at work if she wanted to. All I can do is hope that he ends the contact and does notify me like it says in the EP's. But thank God, they don't work together any more!

You're correct there, because Dr. H did say that unless you feel completely ready to take that step to not do it.

Only you will know by his actions. I know he isn't doing very well on the posting because he gets asked lots of questions and never answers them.

I did suggest to him to write the radio show and call the coaching center. We'll see.

Good luck and I'm pulling for you two.

Yes, he does miss a lot of questions and is not very comfortable on the computer. I know it's hard for him. But I point out to him all the crazy stuff I did to save our marriage, so I don't think I am asking for much on his end.

Thanks so much for your time you have been taking for us!

Please don't make excuses for him! You'll do yourself a major dis-service.

He's a big boy, and needs to put on his big boy pants!

He isn't missing any questions, he is AVOIDING THEM!

He isn't uncomfortable on the computer, he's uncomfortable having others ask him to be HONEST. He's a great bullchitter until he is dealing with others that can see through his bullchit! Then he wants to make excuses and cut-n-run.

Also you should stay off each other's posts.

RQ,

Spouses should not post on each others threads, it only causes discord at home, and chaos on the forums when this happens.

That being said, my wife read ALL my posts! She needed to see what I was saying. After-all, I was the foggy wayward!

She asked me to give her space on her own thread in order to have a place to VENT! She knew it wouldn't be good for me to see her venting posts.

Keep your eyes wide open girl!

Thanks, I only wrote on his post because he had told me earlier that he was confused by the abbreviations.

Unfortunately, I don't believe he will be posting here any longer. My family is VERY upset about what he posted about them and upset with me for "allowing" it, I guess.

I'm quite upset because I thought this was a great resource for us. I am not happy about what he wrote about my family at all and does not pertain to OUR problems.

How does your family know?

My mother knew about this site because I had referred to it when talking to her about Plan B, etc. early on.

The only reason I can see that she was reading the site was to find out what was going on with my WH and I. I feel badly that she is upset about what was written, but our situation has nothing to do with her or the rest of my family. Now my WH feels that his privacy was invaded and refuses to post anymore.

I posted this on his thread also.

It's a radio clipnof Dr. H says a WH needs to do if his serious about recovery.
Radio clip on WH serious about recovery

Thanks BH! Now, where did my headphones go.....

He still doesn't get it!

He's as wayward as ever.....


THERE IS NO PRIVACY NECESSARY WHEN HE IS WILLING TO BE 100% HONEST!

The only privacy he needs is when he is using the bathroom.

It's a good clip. The WH should go tell eveyone that he had an affair, he should "expose" himself (not the illegal way :D).

Like HerPapaBear said he has no privacy right now.

Why does he feel his privacy was invaded?

RQ,

What's up? Are you going to go Plan B? Call the coaching center?

Did he lie about your family? Do you agree that your first priority is your marriage?

BH- I am encouraging him to call the coaching center. We have been discussing signing up for the online program. He says that he will continue posting here. That he doesn't care what my mother says, that this is between me and him and he'll do whatever he has to do.

MB - His observations were inaccurate. But my mother can get too involved in things and takes things very personally. She has actually boycotted B&N for life because they fired my DS21! I do know that recovering my marriage is my priority right now and that any amends to will have to happen down the road.

Yes definitely call the coaching center.

What did you tell your mom? Good opportunity to stand up for your M.

BrainHurts, I'd rather not say too much but I did tell her that we are working recovery and that I should not be judged by wanting to do that. And that our issues have nothing to do with her.

Rocketqueen. There are so many parents and ILs that are weak enablers. You mother seems to have some fire. It would be great to be able to channel that into productive support. Buy her the book SAA so that she can educate herself and become a positive influence in your M and in your fight to hold your kids family together.

Of course your marriage comes before anything else...but I always try to give people the best chance. That is what I would try if it were my own mother.

pokerface, don't get me wrong. My mother is a wonderful person and I don't believe she is an enabler. She wants to help anyone who is hurt. But she gets too empathic with the issues, and takes on the role and the pain of the person she is trying to help. She is also very emphatic about her thoughts and her opinions.
I am just concerned for her and feel responsible for her pain. That is a great idea about giving her the SAA book. I just read it and another one is coming in the mail from Joyce Harley so I will give her my copy. Thank you for the suggestion!

RQ. Sorry maybe I didn't word that properly...clearly your Mother is not an enabler and I respect her need to protect you.

I learned through my own road to recovery that there are many popular misguided views about affairs. Many times the people trying to "help" are following those naive views not realizing that they are causing more harm than good.

The better your mother understands marriage builders principles; the better the chance that she will be able to give positive support. You don't need any additional conflict right now. Present the SAA book to her in a positive way.

I am wishing the best for you and your family.

Send your mother these.
Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts
How To Survive Infidelity

Send her the video also:
Infidelity: What Every couple needs to know

Mom- read the links. I'll give you the book tonight.

Does kiss have the book SAA? I think he needs it before your mom?

He doesn't like to read. He has trouble retaining what he read. That is why I was looking at ordering audiobooks for him. My mother, on the other hand, enjoys reading as much as I do

Ok gotcha. It would be better if HE would buy it.

I've found "HNHN" on audio but not SAA.

Did you find it on audio?

Radio show archives, listen online!

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/

SAA isn't available on audio.

And what would be better, is for kiss to study the books.
I've read SAA at least a dozen times. I highlight and make notes as well. This isn't for leisure, it's for saving a marriage and a family.

I'm sure if OW had mentioned how much she would have admired kiss if he would have read the book, "How to Win Friends and Influence People", by Dale Carnegie,(or any other book) kiss would have tripped all over himself just trying to get to the book store and read it that day in order to impress her.


I can appreciate he struggles with reading, so do I. I prefer audio books, as my vision is terrible. I've had multiple eye surgeries in an attempt to repair the muscle damages around my eyes. So yes reading is very difficult, but I do it anyways. We all do what's important to us.
How important is this marriage??
His actions and effort will say it all!

If you are having to do it for him, that is not a good sign.

Thanks guys, point taken. I have to stop doing his work for him.

Now you're getting it. If he is a true remorseful, repentant wayward his ACTIONS will speak to you.

His lack of actions are a huge to all of us.

I'm concerned that he's fighting to get back into residency with you before demonstrating how he's a changed man. He seems like the same man just fighting for control and a way back to status quo before you turned his world upside down by growing a backbone.

It's too bad he broke your Plan B and you let him back into contact with you before he hit bottom. He seems to have an expectation that if he says he's sorry enough you will go back to the old marriage.

Take a strong stand that you are never going back to that old marriage; that you are a different woman than the woman he trampled.

Watch for actions, not tantrums or words.

Find a way to Plan B!!! Really seriously this time.

Well, I had trouble playing the radio clips on my WH's laptop too. Not sure why? He just got it so maybe it isn't set up with a program to play it. I dunno. I downloaded itunes and it still wouldn't work.

KaylaAndy - thank you for your advice. I am truly starting to see a change in him recently. I am standing strong for a "new" marriage, but am fortunate to know that I have the inner strength to stand alone if I need to thanks to the advice given to me by this forum.I will continue the current path that I am on right now. And wanted to let you know that I hold very close to my heart and my head one of your quotes "I don't need to be married that badly!" I know that I respect myself enough to not settle for anything less than what I want!

We finally got our EN's questionnaires done the other night and it was an interesting experience. I don't feel like I am fully "onborad" with it yet. I can't help but feel that we are moving too quickly on to marriagebuilding and the big elephant isn't being addressed. The A isn't even spoken about in MC unless I bring it up. I'm doing what I can fulfilling his needs and avoiding LB's, but I still feel like I am lacking what I really need.
I told a friend of mine that it's like we're building a pretty new house on a cesspool, pretty soon the stink will be unbearable!!

Still going to church and I am so glad that I started to go again. I will keep praying for God to give me strength and to give my WH forgiveness. I will keep praying that He will continue to guide me.

So what about Dr. H's advice about letting him move back in with you?

You still aren't ready for that?

Did you hear the radio clips where Dr. H talks to a couple (WH, serial cheater and a BW) who moved him home and she was having nightmares and constant triggers?
If you'd like to find the clips I will.

Here I found them
Radio clip of a couple trying to recover from his many affairs
Segment #2
Segment #3
Segment #4

Tell me what you think.

BH, thanks for the clips. I will listen to them tonight. To answer your question, no, I don't feel that I am ready to have him move in. I know that Dr. Harley says that I should. But I feel that what I WANT and NEED from him are being overlooked and he is getting everything that he wants and needs. I know that sounds selfish and bitter. But having him move in, to me, feels like I am shutting the door on what my requirements are and settling. I can't do that.

Have you decided how your husband can best give you just compensation?

That's what I am reading here: you haven't seen enough hat-in-hand type behavior from him. What will it take for you to get that?

You need to figure this out so that you can ask for what you need.

Did you two ever really talk about the affair? You know, have the "one, big conversation" about it? Did you express your hurt and devastation to him?

Often, when one feels something is lacking and they can't move forward it's because he or she doesn't feel understood yet. It leaves you feeling unimportant or unloved - and without security.

SunnyD- I think the one big thing I need. The huge emotional need that I have to be able to forgive him and move on is to see, not just hear" that he owns 100% responsibility for the affair. That he has "OWNED his choices and the consequences they cause" and that has not happened yet. I feel that he is still blaming the state of our marriage for it. I still feel that he feels justified in what he did. And that bothers me a great deal.

I have asked him to call the coaching center a few times and he has not. Will it help with this? Who knows. Should he be doing it because I asked him to and not make every excuse not to? I certainly think so!

We have had a few talks about the affair and he has answered questions for me. I am satisfied that I know what I need to know and he is good with answering questions when I have one.

Side note - I am still dealing with flak from family and while I am trying to ignore it and focus on my marriage, it is difficult. I do believe that my WH owes them an apology and even a thank you and yet he refuses to do so. So how do I stand by the side of someone who is so disrespectful to them and justify it??

Oh! I had posted about the "protection phase" back on the 19th. That was from a post from Susie Q. This is where I am still stuck at.

...which kind of goes back to your statement about him owning his choices.

Going in circles isn't getting you anywhere, it's time that he breaks the stupid cycle and follows up with your family.

RQ,
You wrote this on another thread.

I'm sure you're already aware of this, but if kiss doesn't "stand up and take responsibility for his actions and start making amends for them(just compensation) you will remain stuck.

Recovery is tough enough with a repentant spouse but all most impossible without a repentant spouse.

What is his excuse for not calling the coaching center?

A truly repentant spouse will do whatever it takes for their spouse. How is the level of your LB?

You've been seperated how long?

I'm worried about your health. How are you truly? You need to protect your LB.

Dr. Harley just said on the radio show. "It is very difficult to recover from an affair if the BS is doing all the work".

You're already seperated have you thought about Plan B? You know your health better than us.

Brainhurts, awww thanks for caring about my health. I'm actually doing quite well. I am still on my AD and have gained back 6 of the poumds I had lost on the infidelity diet.

No, he still has not called the coaching center and I had
mentioned it to him AGIAN today. As we are separated, I feel that I am in a good place to not allow him to move in until he starts to take responsibilty for his actions.

I do think I need to give myself a deadline though. And Plan B was very difficult on me and my kids. I have been in Plan C since March 5th. I am prepared to go to Plan D if I feel that is what I have to do.

Plan C was exactly what I was worried about with you.
You already know what Dr. Harley says on this, correct? So I don't need to beat you up.

Read this BS Plan C is not a MB plan

Listen to these radio clips.
Radio clip on Plan A & B
Radio clip on Plan C

Yes, I have read that and agree with the absurdity of it. I really shouldn't say I am in Plan C. My WH is not the fogged out alien he used to be and isn't lying, denying or cake-eating like he was.
And I am not the person I used to be who believed she was "just a friend", allowed his cake-eating, believed his lies, felt guilty and scared about exposure and had nearly convinced myself that I WAS crazy.
I know that I went through H-E-double-toothpicks fighting for my marriage. I learned that I am a woman worthy of a GOOD husband, and I know that should my WH not make me feel that I am worthy of "whatever it takes", then I am strong enough to stand alone. I will know when I am ready.

RQ,

That's why you need to either jump all in and work on your M and tell your family that the way how they can support you right now is to back off.

Plan B kiss or Plan B your family(for now).

You need Plan RQ (which is MB (BTW).

Just spoke to Joyce, I'll be on the show TODAY!!

Fantastic I will be listening. Thanks for letting us know?

RQ,

I saw kiss has an apt with Steve. That is fabulous. Will you be speaking with him also?

What did you think of your call with the Harleys?

BH,

Yes, I am very happy about it! The appointment is on my birthday too.

The call with the Harleys helped me a great deal. I think I can get now move on with marriagebuilding materials and stop waiting for something that will take time to happen. Dr. Harley also said to give my family time and just stay away from them for now.

I'm off to DD7 ballgame right now. I'll try to listen to my radio clip later!

Wow what a Birthday gift. Did you give kiss a big hug and tell him how proud you are of him?
So are you going to let him move back in?

Glad to see you're on the road to recovery.

Let us know how your apt with Steve goes.

Brainhurts, Yes, he definitely knows how proud of him I am and when he asked me what I wanted for my birthday, I told him that he already gave me something by making the appt.
I will take notes and pass the info on. I'm kind of nervous because I don't know what to expect or what questions we should ask.

Relax and enjoy your birthday, my friend.

Steve will make you feel very relaxed and handle it.

Thank you!

Sooo, I just took a crappy walk down memory lane while mowing the lawn. I started thinking of all the lies that kiss had told me, all the games he played with my head and my heart. How he would tell me he loved me and missed me and I would give him another chance and then he would have sex with skank the next day. Not once but twice! So much pain and hurt.

I know he is different from they way he was then but how do you know that for sure?

BH, I realized that I didn't answer your question earlier about kiss moving in. I don't think I failed to answer intentionally. But when I think about the answer, I have to say that I honestly don't know. I think the pain of the past is still holding me back.

Anyway, thanks for letting me vent. Hopefully I'll be out of my funk before kiss comes over after work

You'll know he's changed when it becomes so obvious that you don't even need to ask the question..... Other than a complete change of psyche, you still have a pig, but with lipstick.

tst- I am surprised that you say that. Can you tell me why? I felt that our recovery was going well and we are looking forward to speaking to the coaching center on Tuesday. I'm interested in your viewpoint.

RQ

RQ,

If you feel things are going well, why are you asking this question?

YOU are the only one that knows your husband intimately. Either you feel he has made a complete change in his psyche or he's just a con.

And why would you be suprised by my saying this? When I came home the first time and I was no more than a pig that had put on lipstick. It was a false recovery!

The real recovery was unmistakeable to my wife because she could see I had a complete change of psyche.

Wow listen to your radio clip again. I think it was very optimistic, don't you think?

Did you have kiss listen? What did you both think?
I figured Dr. Harley would say for your family to stay out of it for now.

Sorry for your funk today. Did you get out of it? I would keep looking forward and your appointment with Steve Harley. I am excited for you about this. Like Dr. Harley says "he thinks you're on the right road to recovery".

I hope you feel my hug for you

tst - I do feel that he has changed a lot. He is doing everything I ask of him and meeting my needs every day. It's just my own fear of going through "that" again. That is something I need to work on.

BH- we did listen to it together last night. Kiss said that it wasn't true that he blames me for the affair, which took a weight off my shoulders. He also didn't like that Dr. Harley called him "foggish". LOL

I think we are on the right track to recovery and I know that these funks will happen but will happen less and less. I am looking forward to our appointment and interested to see how SH will help us. We also ordered one of the workbooks and kiss ordered HNHN on audio book.

Do you think he is still "foggish"?

He was foggy when it came to him defending his A with skank and he was foggish when he was justifying it (his first post). But now that the A is over and we don't talk about it, he's not. KWIM?

I know exactly what you mean, RQ. That's how it went with my H too at the beginning of recovery.

The workbook will help you guys TREMENDOUSLY, I feel.

And I agree with HPB: I knew immediately when H was really ready for recovery. Something was different. Of course...that doesn't mean that I wasn't still fearful or that I trusted him immediately or that everything was great at that point. I just knew when he the tipping point had been reached.

Let me tell you how to let go of that fear; by knowing full well that should you get a whiff of him heading down infidel lane ever again, you will scuttle his tailpipe so fast it will make his head spin, and you will never see or speak to him again.

Maybe... MAYBE you thought this before you actually had to deal with this in actuality. But, NOW you need to KNOW - make a promise to yourself - that he will be amputated like a cancerous limb if he does not live up to your terms for the continuation of this marriage. You need to steel yourself that should this occur, that your life will go on, and can be a full, happy, satisfying life without him. Once you know that you can extend that branch to him; join me, or don't.


What did Dr. H say about your situation of separation right now? You know that the work of recovery will actually work better and faster if you are in the same home? Sleeping in the same bed.

How about this; quit circling the pool dipping your toe, and get in the water.

Making a full attempt at recovery does not immediately relinquish your right to divorce.


Give it a 6 months of SOLID effort. If that goes well, give it another 6 months. If those go well, give it another year.

If after 2 years your marriage isn't better than it ever was before his affair(s?), then divorce.


6 months of full steam ahead will give you a better idea than a year of a one-cheek job.

Sunny, I'm glad that made sense to someone. I'm hoping after the coaching session tomorrow that I will accept that he is fully "on board"

HHH- Thank you! I did make it quite clear to kiss that any contact with OW and we are done! I know that I have the strength to follow through on that and be better than OK standing on my own. Thank you for reminding me of that.

Dr. H did say that we should be living together under the same roof. He has been at the house often and spending the night. He just hasn't physically moved his things in. In fact a few people have told me to have faith and jump in but I have been afraid of a false recovery. Guess it's time to get the whole body wet...

VERY wise post by HHH!!!

So when are you going to listen to Dr. H?

So sorry about the problems with your family. That doesn't help when you need a support system.

What do you think about Dr. Harley's advice about telling your family to "back off for now"?

Here are your clips so others can listen too.

Radio clip of RQ
Segment #2

BH- I'll have to go all in soon. I need to talk to him about it.

I know that you have seen the recent post on kiss's thread. And while I appreciate their intentions, they are not helping things. I've told them that if they can't support me and continue to criticise me then I will have to stay away from them. It's tearing me up but as Dr Harley said "they are complicating an already complicated matter". We need to focus on recovering us first.

Thanks for posting the clips. You rock!

Yes I saw your family's response. I just hope they respect Dr. Harley's advice to you.

Keep us updated on what Steve says.

I hope you take Dr. H's advice.

Well tomorrow's your day. You have your apt with Steve and it's your

HAPPY BIRTHDAY, RocketQueen!!!!!

I hope you take some time off and just have a good time today.

Awwww, thank you!

Kiss is on the phone now with SH, I'm anxiously awaiting my turn. LOL

How was your birthday? How did your call go with Steve?

It was a great day, lots of UA time with kiss. Then we all went out to dinner at this little Mexican restaurant. The Macarena came on so I made the kids get up and do it with me LOL! It was a lot of fun!

The call with Steve went really good. We are working on "healing the injury" and "getting it cleaned out". Kiss felt very good about the call and said he was very comfortable with it. SH asked us to fill out another EN questionnaire and the Lovebusters questionnaire for our next appointment. I felt really good about the session and am glad that it finally happened. It was a very wonderful birthday!

You know I'm going to ask.

What did Steve say about having kiss move back in?

What did he say about your family?

He said to listen to the wise words I was already given and that the recovery and re-building would be much easier to do and see if we are living together. I spoke to kiss briefly about it but we did not set a date for it. I'll speak to him about it agian.

We did not speak about my family. It was difficult not speaking to my mother on my birthday but she did text me

So since you've now been told by Dr. Harley and Steve Harley that he should move back in.

Do you feel better about having him move back in?

I'm working on it....It's just hard. The house I m in now is where I had to go to get away from him and his cake-eating. It is/was my safe haven. That's hard to let go of even though he is here most of the time. I also feel a little bit of resentment. He put me, my kids, and my family through months of hell. Now I'm supposed to just let him get back everything he lost? What about what I lost??

Sorry, I needed to vent I guess. Feeling a bit of the anger today.

RQ,

My H moved out (originally to have his own affair but even after it ended he was still reluctant to come back) and I begged him to come back. He said he wanted to but he felt a lot like you. He did not know what he wanted, did not want to be hurt again, felt like I had not suffered enough for what I did etc...

It was very hard but I did give him his space for awhile. I then however decided that we were not going anywhere without living together under the same roof. Even if you get time together it is just not the same.

I know it was hard for both of us for him to come home. At first he constantly reminded me that this was a trial basis and that he was really home for the kids sake more than my own. It hurt to hear this but I know that it is what he needed to say and feel in order to take the next step.

HHH could not have given you better advice. Take it one day at a time but honestly to truly recover you have to do it under one roof. Otherwise you are in limbo. I know you are scared and it will be scary for awhile (I saw this in my H's eyes and still see it at times) but you have to work together under one roof to rebuild and make your marriage safe and sound.

My H and I have just started really feeling whole again. I can guarantee that we would not feel this way however if we were not under the same roof, working together.

15, Thank you. What you say (and what HHH said) makes so much sense. But you're right, it is really scary. I feel like the little kid on the super high diving board saying "Ok, this time I REALLY am gonna jump!"

Well, I tried to talk to him about it and he said he is "not crazy" about moving into this house. Not sure where that leaves us.

What? Why not?

Next time, ask for a real answer or, at least, some clarification instead of you leaving the conversation confused.

Unless the conversation was going downhill and needed to end to avoid a conflict...

He said that the house has "issues". The only issues it has is that it is MINE. It is a beautiful home and I think I did a really good job finding it, decorating it and making the kids comfortable in it during a stressful time.

Anyway, he told me this morning that he would like to move in. As we were both heading out to work, we agreed to talk about it later.

Unfortunately, I feel like I took the jump and hit concrete. It was really hard for me to extend the offer and I was really hurt by his response.

I'm assuming he feels this way because this house is "your" house and there are bad memories associated with it - him coming over there and your refusal to see him, etc...

In one sense it's his own dang fault. In another, it would be nice if you could move into a place that is fresh and new.

But... it is what it is. I mean, there was a lot of ugliness that occurred in our home too and that we have to live with. I guess the difference is that this was our home for years before the A. In your case, it's a place you went to get away from him. How long before the lease is up?

What about POJA a new place?

Our marital home is sitting empty and is being foreclosed on. He had wanted to move us all back in there, but it has too many bad memories for me. Plus, the house has been a finacial strain on us for awhile.
I don't technically have a lease but I would hate to leave the house after only being there for 2+ months. And I'm sure the landlord wouldn't be very happy about it.
A new place would be nice but rentals are hard to find in my school district, especially a 3 bedroom.
We will def have to POJA on this!

WOW!

Such a fog head! Can we get a big fog horn a blowin'





I'm so sorry RQ.....

Thanks tst. By the way, he doesn't like your posts I think you might get through to him eventually

We will be doing a follow-up with SH early next week, I hope. We just have to coordinate our schedules.

Rocket - you... gave him a choice?


He DOESN'T GET A CHOICE!

He either get's his [preemptive apologies to the mods] freaking [censored] back home, or he bugs off FOR GOOD.


He's "not crazy" about MOVING HOME WITH HIS WIFE AND CHILDREN?


Right.


Then he must be "crazy" about being removed from your life, right?

HHH, That was a great video!

Some of us are just in the slow learners section! When he's ready, he can join me there.

More technical specs than I ever cared to know about foghorns... it was a beast though, wasn't it?

RQ,

How are you doing? Still having problems with the family I see?

Brain Hurts - Rocket would have no "problems with the family" if Kiss didn't insist on constantly bashing them far and wide to everyone that will give him an audience. Rocket has asked him to stop and has addressed it on this forum. He refuses. I thought the purpose of this forum was for the two of them to address the issues in their marriage that led to the affair and fix it. Instead he has used it as open season on her family (Mom especially) and he is far from truthful. His indiscretions as far as the affair goes would have been forgiven as soon as Rocket gave the word. These constant attacks make it obvious that he wants her to have no relationship with her family.

Pantsonfire, (Love the name)

Read the introduction to the forum. The purpose of this forum is very clear....

Then read the 10 basic concepts for a greater understanding of the Marriage Builders Program. It gives you the highlights.



The extended family is now a distraction. It's best for this couple to put extended family on the back burner for a short time and address the marital issues. The rest will fall into place if RQ decides her WS is worth the risk..... albeit a big risk, it's still a decision she needs to make on her own.

BTW, There are no "constant attacks" on the extended family happening here on this forum. And IMO, as long as the "extended family" agrees to stop giving advice, that is no longer welcome, all the relationships will have a chance to heal.

My extended family has learned to be respectful of our marriage and our time. It has been difficult for all of them, but at nearly five years, everyone is beginning to see the fruits and all are enjoying the harvest.

Papabear - With all due respect - I know you have read Kiss' thread. To the family those are constant attacks. We give no advice however, when we did it was merely reenforcement of what you and the others here told her. We are on the back burner. In fact we used to be a happy loving family and now we barely speak at all. You would think leaving the family alone - especially at Rocket's request if not ours, would be easy enough for him to do, but as you know - he doesn't respect her wishes.

So... you... signed up for an account... on an anonymous forum... to... attack her husband...




... why?


Anyway... yes. You need to be left alone. And you need to step the heck off and let your sister/daughter/cousin/whatever work on her marriage. Quit being a chittering distraction.

Of course you don't like kiss... he violated someone you love. That's pretty horrible.


Know what?

My wife did the same to me.

Know what else?

If any of my family ever did as you are right now, these posts would hae effectively written them out of my life.


So, why don't YOU respect Rocket, AND BACK OFF.

Gee no, I didn't just sign up for an account to attack her husband. In fact I didn't attack her husband at all. I signed up to defend my family from the lying and slandering and attacking he is doing over on his thread. I merely asked him to respect the family's and his wife's wishes that he discontinue the practice and leave us alone. I certainly think we deserve to be left in peace. I don't dislike kiss because he hurt someone I love, like I said that was forgiveable if that is what Rocket wanted. His attacks on the family is the issue and I would really like him to stop like Rocket has asked him to. If you read the post we have backed off so far we rarely speak. I pity your family that you don't believe they deserve a modicum or respect. We are only a distraction because kiss insists on making us one. I only posted here in response to Brain Hurts.

My marriage and my wife deserve respect, and if my family cannot do that, then they need to go.

My vows hold me to such. Even though my wife made the choice to break them, I did not.

If my wife were to "attack" my family, my first question would be; why?

You see, when I married my wife I made a commitment to "leave my family and cleave to my spouse."

That means that if my wife and my family are incompatible, I choose my wife. That was my vow. That was her vow.

I vowed to honor the bond of marriage over blood ties.


That means if my family chooses to act in a manner that is disrespectful to my spouse (and as such disrespectful to my marriage, and then by proxy disresepctful to ME) that I will brush them aside as any other threat to my marriage.


Respecting my family has nothing to do with allowing them to meddle in my marriage or disrespect my spouse - and respect is a two-sided coin. Disrespect my spouse, disrespect my marriage, disrespect me... you get neither respect nor disrespect in return. You get Plan B.


I would advise that you take the time to read the concepts here so you have a better idea about what is going on... "the family" is an afterthought when it comes to repairing the marriage at this point.

First off, Kiss needs to return to the marital home as Rocket has invited him to.

Pantsonfire. I'm sorry that this has happened to your family. Have faith in SH who RQ and Kiss are counseling with. It is a process. Give it time to work.

I'm sorry for your pain. It's probably best if you would choose not to read their threads on Marriage Builders.

Those closest to the situation usually have a very difficult time when they see all the dirty laundry that is being aired out. But the family needs to realize the WS needs a place to put it all out there, the good, the bad, and the ugly.

As you've seen, we will call him on his bull.... And yes, we know there is a lot of bull left in there, it's just best if you let us call him out, if you KWIM. He will not get a free pass, OK!


Again, let us call him out. Please...



Again, I'm so very sorry. Adultery leaves behind so much collateral damage. Kiss is still pretty clueless to all the collateral damage, that's why we say he is still foggy.
It takes average waywards 6-9 months before they clear their heads enough to see all the damages. Some clear up quicker, but many do take much longer, and regretfully, some never recover.



Again, it takes time.

He will either learn to respect his wife or she will put his things out on the curb again. Trust RQ to know, she has become a very strong woman through all of this.

Again, I'm sorry for your pain....

God Bless!

Thank you everyone for your support.

Have your shared with your family what Dr. Harley has advised you when it comes to them and your M?

I have avoided talking to the family, especially about my marriage. I had spokento them proir to their posts about the wayward mind and it taking time to accept blame. They should have bwcked off before and wllowed the process to work.
I will be wpeaking t them today because i wm tired of this.

HAPPY MOTHERS DAY TO ALL MY FELLOW MOMS OUT THERE!

Maybe have them listen to the radio clips with Dr. Harley? I posted them on yours and kiss's thread.

Happy Mother's Day, my friend.

Well, they have denied posting although I know they are lying. I asked them not to post anymore but we'll see. Thank you for posting the radio clips for them to listen to but I don't know if they have. If they haven't, I REALLY THINK THEY SHOULD!!!

Having read POF's posts on both threads, I'd have to say, and I mean this as objectively as I can manage, that POF is much less concerned with your welfare, RQ, than his (her?) own private agenda.

To discover who in your family is responsible for the cowardly posts, I'd suggest looking for the person in your family with the biggest ego, and the smallest reason for it! Unless your family is a collection of loudmouth losers (and I'm betting NOT, since you exhibit little of those characteristics), it should narrow the choices down quite a bit.

I'm sorry POF has your welfare so poorly in mind, RQ. You don't need POF's moronic contributions to entangle your situation more than it is.

And, btw, being such an arrogant little [censored], POF has likely already told other members of your family what he/she is doing. Ask around, you might uncover this earthworm without much trouble.

RQ, I would be encouraging him to not act like a punk around your family. He is not the victim here, after all. It helped my husband tremendously to go to my family and apologize for his despicable behavior. And while your husband might be foggy and doesn't feel "sincere" he needs to stop blaming the victims. Help him be a MAN and not a punk, rocketqueen. Raising the bar on my husband helped him be a better man.

Your family has been hurt just as you have. Their reaction is in response to his scummy behavior. Beating them up for their reaction is cruel and ungrateful especially since they were there for you when your husband betrayed you.

Please insist that he come back and post to me and tst... Running from criticism is not going to help him one bit.

Do you think your family would be more supportive if they felt your H was more contrite?

You have expressed your own concerns about his not being remorseful enough...so I think that is part of the problem. They should stay out of the middle of it yet your H needs to realize he brought this on himself, with his bad behavior.

I was fortunate in that I didn't have to deal with a ton of fallout from my extended family since we all live far apart. It was hard when my brother came to town though and my H had to see him for the first time. My brother was so gracious to my husband...but mainly because he knew through our conversations that H was doing everything he could to make things right. In turn, H was very humble and gracious towards my brother as well.

I don't know what your family dynamics are; everyone's different. Some people live in families where everyone's always up in each other's business, trying to run each other's lives. My cousins are all like that. I don't have that with my brother - or even with my parents. I don't think I would want to either! It typically causes a lot of problems.

What was your relationship like with your family before the crisis? Do you think it was a problem in your marriage or is this a result of the A? I think it would help differentiate not to just negotiate the current goings on but so you can understand how better to deal with the situation in the future.

Mel's right: it is up to your H to do the heavy lifting, at least to some degree. Even with my kids I know my H (when he was still foggy) was angry with our kids for "siding" with me. In his fog he truly thought they would support him! He had to suck it up and mend those fences. But, he had more at stake, being his children.

Everyone involved needs to remember that this is a marathon and it takes time.

ML - He hasn't been around the family AT ALL and he doesn't blame them for anything. But before he could apologize, he was told not to bother and was verbally attacked here.


I understand my family's hurt. They stood by my side the whole time and did everything I asked them to. They did not want to get involved but they did everything I asked them to because they could not stand by and watch the destruction going on. It is only because of them that I was able to survive my WH's affair. I had lost 40 lbs, I was in the hospital for dehydration and I was a nervous wreck. My MOM was the one who came to the hospital because my WH was too busy texting his skank ho. I absolutely understand their hurt. I am not trying to beat them up. But I need them to know that I do not deserve the hurtful texts and e-mails I had received nor do I appreciate them posting here and interfering in our recovery.

After speaking to Dr. Harley, I was told that I should not expect an apology for some time. And to instead look at my WH's actions as just compensation. It is only recently that my WH removed the blame from the A off of me.



The family had always been very close. We also live very close to each other. I'm not sure what problem you are referring to specifically but there weren't any clashes prior to my WH's affair.



Exactly!

I wish everyone would listen to what Dr. Harely has said to you.

Here are your clips so others can listen too.

Radio clip of RQ
Segment #2

I understand that it may take awhile for the apology to come and to look for actions. I'm just suggesting that because your family doesn't understand the program, etc... that perhaps if you have been relaying your feelings to them about wanting him to be more remorseful, they are feeding off of that.

And I didn't mean you had any specific problems with the family before all of this. It was just a question to examine that possibility, if it existed. My cousin's H, for instance, feels he has no say in his own life half the time because my cousin's sister and mother dictate everything and my cousin lets them... He's very resentful about it. It's a disaster waiting to happen. Again - not saying that's the case in your family. Just wanted to flesh out the possibility that part of this is raises its ugly head because of the past. If it is solely because of your H's affair and how he treated you while wayward... then that is different.

In my case, it helped that I educated my brother and SIL on the whole concept of waywardness and the MB program. I also explained to them that I didn't blame myself at all for my H's affair, but that I had responsibility in our marriage getting to the point to where it made it easier for him to cross boundaries. Obviously they know about MB - and about this site. They may not understand it, however. If they truly want to know what it's all about and to help you at this point, then it would behoove them to get educated.

In any case, you don't need or deserve nasty emails or texts directed at you. You are right to set some boundaries. But at some point, your H is going to have to reach out to your family and express his regret for what happened if those fences are going to be mended. It will be up to him to do the heavy lifting in that department. The priority, of course, is that the two of you work recovery together and get to a healthy point.

I don't think it's been spelled out as to how all this family nastiness came about. If you were complaining about your H one day and then told them the next that you were taking him back, it probably raised their eyebrows quite a bit. With all the wavering going on, they were as confused as you were. ???

For me, I viewed recovery as a closed door to everything and everyone else. Once H committed to it and he had met my EPs, I shut down the negative talk about him to my family and friends. I felt I had to protect the marriage in its fragile state. That meant no more talk about what had happened or how hurt I was or anything else - and just sharing the positive things about what we were doing. I had to lead and have confidence in what I was doing so others could have faith in it... including my own children.

Right now it doesn't matter so much how all this came about as it does that it stop. Everyone needs to take a time out. When feelings aren't so flustered perhaps it will be much easier to negotiate new terms of familial relationships.

I liked HPB's post - that your family needs to trust that with SH counseling you all and if Kiss remains posting here - he will get called on his stuff enough, without them needing to be the ones to do it.

And another complicating factor, RQ.....

Can you imagine how difficult it will be for your WH to "isolate" the different inputs from your family, and keep those jumbled interpretations separate from those YOU supply?

Sorry, if this seems like I'm giving you the burden of fixing this, but until Kiss gets his act entirely together (if ever) you have to bar your family from "pissing in the soup-pot".

Or not....

SunnyD, I have been avoiding discussing anything about our recovery with my family so I'm sure what they know is what I have posted on here. But I had spoken to a family member weeks ago about the wayward mind. I asked her if I should believe that my WH's A was because I was a frigid, sloppy, b*och the way he said I was in his first post and she said no. So I said "then why would you believe what he says about you??" I think it is still hard for her to grasp.
This is just part of the issues I am dealing with. I also recently learned that he has yet to speak to my DS21 and that my son is not too thrilled about WH being here often let alone moving in.
It seems that there is still a lot of cleaning up to do after the "hurricane" before re-building can start. Kiss better grab a broom and get started! I totally agree with ML that he needs to man up and stop hiding.

RQ, just because your husband is foggy does not mean your family is obliged to accommodate him. He doesn't get a pass. He is not saying things like that to you now and I doubt you would tolerate it for 2 seconds if he did. Nor should your family tolerate it. Being foggy is not an excuse for bad behavior. It is a sign that he needs to change his behavior and wake his [censored] up.

I would stop defending your husband and tell him he needs to handle the problem with your family. Your husband is in the wrong here, not your family.

ML, I'm not disagreeing with you. I just don't know if I am supposed to stay out of the middle, defend my marriage or defend my family. I have been told by Dr. Harley to have my WH move in, tell my family to stay out of it and not to expect an apology for some time. I am hearing many conflicting things so I am not sure what my next step is....
But I know that he should be apologizing to them and speaking to others about his A because it is causing me unhappiness and I am reading Lovebusters and that is one of the basic concepts
"Do whatever you can to make your spouse happy and avoid anything that makes your spouse unhappy, even if it makes you unhappy"

...you have to bar your family from "pissing in the soup-pot". - the amateur NG

...told by Dr. Harley to have my WH move in, tell my family to stay out of it - the expert Dr. H

Well, having roughly the same advice emanating from sources from the ridiculous to the sublime, I would suggest that you have a clear direction, RQ.

I would heed the advice of the licensed psychologist with decades of experience who has saved thousands of marriages, and assembled the very program we advise from... and also his children... and then his coaches.

I see your situation, and the echoes of a particular letter preceding an infidelity article just echo through my head over and over...


"DO NOT JUDGE HER!"



The thing is... if your husband provides just compensation it is possible that you could forgive him before he apologizes. And right now, that apology would only be a paper thin token.

His actions will define his remorse, his repentence.


Wife beaters apologize between beatings.


His actions over time should speak remorse.

NG - yes, you both agree on the same point LOL. But the family demanding an apology which everyone here thinks he should give is conflicting with telling them to stay out of it and quit "pissing in the soup pot". KWIM?
HHH- Exactly how I feel this should be played out. One side of me feels that I should be stepping back and allowing things to happen. The other side of me feels I should be trying to fix things just as I have been doing for the last 6+ months.
Do you happen to have a link to that letter? I would love to read it!

PS If you are referring to the apology to me, I understand what Dr Harley said about not expecting one so soon and I understand the any given to me right now would be insincere. It is his actions that matter

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5033b_qa.html

Mind you, that is a response to a BH and how to handle his WW.


You may feel better reading the articles aimed at BWs;

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5032a_qa.html

You'll find that Dr. Harley's advice lacks the flourish we peers tend to pile on.

HHH- I read the letters you posted, thanks. Do you mean that WH should not be judged? Do you think that is what I am doing? Is there something I should be doing? I just want to be clear on what it looks like to an "outsider". Thanks so much for your help!

RQ,

I love Dr. Harley!

I love when people follow his advice, they increase their chances of success.

But I know Dr. Harley doesn't live in your home, you do!
And I know Dr. Harley doesn't have to live with your unrepentant husband, you do!

I also know Dr. Harley would never personally recover a marriage where infidelity has occurred, let alone recover one without an apology. But here you are......

So the decision really comes down to; what are you willing to live with?
It's your decision!

I highly recommend you make ABSOLUTELY no major life changes for one year. You can see how things progress in the area of repentance and make adjustments accordingly. (I will add that my wife refused to move ahead unless I was 100% visibly repentant. It was a wise choice on her part)

The thing you don't even realize yet; You really haven't even started the painful journey of recovery yet. The first 12 months will be incredibly difficult once he's moved in. And there is a great deal of drama already brewing. Can you both keep focused? Can you both help your children heal? can you both work the program and meet the UA every week? Are YOU willing? Is HE willing?


The MB Program is a narrow road to follow and it's really quite simple, but it's NOT easy! It's WORK 24/7 that will reap great rewards or be a path riddled with resentments......

And it takes two 100% committed people!

RQ, you might not expect an apology, but others do. Your family does apparently. If that is what it will take to mend this rift, why wouldn't he volunteer to make that relationship right? You shouldn't even have to ask him. Others here can see that he is not accepting consequences for his actions. Perhaps you can't hold him accountable, but others here CAN. For him to put you at odds with your own family is despicable and guess what? I will not hesitate to tell him so.

Please stop protecting your husband and send him back on this forum. Tell him to demonstrate his sincerity and come on back here and post to us.

And why is your family angry at him? Because the lamb was singing too loud in church? Or is it because he committed the equivalence of RAPE on his wife?

RQ, you don't have to demand that your WS apologize or do anything. He doesn't have to do a damn thing. That doesn't stop me, tst, others here, or your family from suggesting he put on his big gurl panties and stop being a wedge between you and your family. Your family does not deserve his ungrateful, rude treatment..

Agree you should stay out of the middle. Your h is a big boy and can handle it on his own.

"My heart is in this 100 percent what ever it takes. I love my wife more then life its self. I will do anything she needs. I do not want our marriage to go back to the way it was. I want us to have the best marriage ever. I want us to be best friends."

There ya go, RQ! Your H said this on 4-27 so it appears he is willing to do whatever you need. You don't even have to ASK him to make this right with our family. He says here he is willing. Please ask him to come back here and speak to me.

But the family demanding an apology which everyone here thinks he should give... is NOT Dr. Harley's advice, nor is it NG's! (And just for giggles, I'll offer that this would most likely divide along gender lines.)

Once in a while the "group-think" starts its own momentum. I believe this is one of those times.

But let's not do this in a vacuum. Your family has butted themselves into your situation with their "demands". How exactly well has THAT worked out for you?

Most men are infinitely more susceptible to enticement than extortion. How do you think WH is viewing the "clan's" involvement in YOUR MARITAL SITUATION right now?

But like I said, it's your life...Keep abdicating your responsibility to maintain barriers to entry to those who have no business within, and watch how quickly WH's absence becomes permanent.

You have received the advice to that end of a wise and considered counselor...and Dr. Harley as well!

(I fully expect hammers for this post, so I'll not be back!)

Brainhurts, most of us have listened to those clips. I listened before I ever posted to KISS. Those clips address RQ's demand that he apologize to her parents. And she is following that advice to the letter as far as I can see!

That doesn't mean I won't or can't address his nasty behavior towards her parents. I pledge to continue doing that.

Lets get the facts straight, shall we? Dr Harley did not tell the rest of the world they could not bust his [censored] about his miserable treatment of her parents. Dr Harley told *HER* - RocketQueen - to not demand such a thing. Which she is doing. That does not mean I will stop calling him out for his trashy treatment of her family. Especially after what he has done to RQ and to the family.

That is not going to go unmentioned by me, no matter how foggy the little lamb is.


If he runs because he is asked to face the consequences of the rightful anger of others, that doesn't say much about his sincerity, does it now? That can't be blamed on others.

Totally agree. I was implying to her family since they were on both threads.

I gotcha! I am hopeful that he won't have to be ASKED to make this right. He needs to volunteer. We will see what he is made of if he comes back.

ML,

I'm not sure he'll be back.....


He reminds me so much of myself during our FALSE RECOVERY!

I was willing to do whatever it took to keep the focus off myself and the blame shifting around to everyone else..... It kept SMB so off balance that I never had to do any of the hard work and she just kept right on accepting responsibility for everything...

I was in heaven as a cake eating wayward POS...... I'm so ashamed of the man I was then! I just wish Kiss didn't remind me of him so much!


I so wish RQ could go back in time and stay in Plan B just a bit longer.....

I told kiss that he needs to come here to see what people have to say to him and to post.

He said that he is "frustrated" and that it is "too much to deal with"

Dang him. I guess all our suspicions have been correct thus far. So hoping he wouldn't let you down RQ.

Sorry.

So agree!

does he want a hankie?

Just had a discussion with WH about why I wasn't happy. His attitude makes me want to vomit. I especially wan't happy to find out that he "disappeared" last night to his condo without me knowing.
I'm Ok

I guess the fog keeps getting thicker and thicker.

What was his excuse for "disappearing"?

He was pissed that I asked pantsonfire and sublimination to listen to the radio clips. Of course, I didn't know that until an hour ago. Transparency went right out the window.
I don't know how I'll be able to sleep tonight.
ugh

Can you take a long hot bath and take some sleep aide?

Dang him.

Did your family listen to the clips?

I hear you my friend. Hopefully kiss will hear you also.

Forums?

Puh.

That's a pittance for a man who is still living separately from his wife.

You could cool off about the forums... and set the bar thusly;

Online program, home study, or phone coaching... or Plan FU----> Plan B-----> Plan D.

They are phone coaching with Steve and kiss is the one who set it up.

Blah!

I'm only tracking like 5 people right now and can't keep it straight!


Rocket,

I'm sure it's a shock going from SH to the forums for your H. Honestly, if he is phone coaching with Steve and continues to do so, no need for him to come back here. SH will sell him on this better than any single person here could, making him worth every dime.

Calm, breathe... follow your plan from Steve.

HHH- he started here on the forums. He has only coached with SH one time and we haven't scheduled another appt yet.

At this time, I decided it's better to hold off on him moving in until he is serious about our recovery. He needs to think more of how things have affected me and are still affecting me and the kids and less about how HE feels about things.

I hate to tell you this, but just the fact that he is running from your family and this forum is a big red flag that he is not serious. He was only serious enough to throw you enough crumbs to get you out of Plan B. Like tst noted, he is behaving exactly like he did when he was faking it. The reason he dislikes the forums is because we have good bullsh** detectors and he doesn't like that. If he were serious, he would have nothing to run FROM. I would keep a very close eye on this one.

Melody, I agree with you. I felt that he told me what I wanted to hear to get me to open the door for him. Now I am hearing that he is NOT willing to do whatever it takes.
He hasn't really shown that he is serious yet. All talk, very little walk.
I am upset with myself that I didn't keep that bar high like I had told myself to and allowed myself to get weak and needy. I had let him steam roll me and throw my requirements on the back burner. I won't let it happen again!

Let me put it this way, a WS who is serious will stay and ardently try to PROVE it. A WS is not serious will run because he can't prove it. There are too many bullshi**ers here for him to be able to pull a fast one.

So back to a dark Plan B until he can meet your requirements?

Personally, once a BS is in plan B, they shouldn't need to sell their WS on any program..... They shouldn't need Steve or anyone else to "sell" anything to them either.


The WS should NEVER be in a position to negotiate their return. They either agree to the requirements that are spelled out in the PlanB letter and/or the requirements spelled out prior to coming out of PlanB..... There is no sell job necessary! They either agree to it or the BS remains in PlanB.

As in this case, when a WS agrees to the requirements, he either follows through or the BS re-enters PlanB again.....

Kiss is clearly reneging on his requirements!


A WS doesn't "deserve" a second chance.
They "deserve" a divorce.
The grace of the BS allows for a second chance (if they so choose)!

Plan B was very, very difficult for me and the kids and I would loathe to have to return to it.

I do think I need to seriously consider if I am still willing to work on this marriage when he is not. No matter what I do, I still have to carry the scar of his affair on my heart everyday for the rest of my life....

Kiss reminds me of myself while I was in the beginning of our False Recovery......

It all began when N/C wasn't being honored by me.....

I question whether Kiss is still N/C.....

A large part of the problem here is that there never was a plan B. Hence the false recovery, I'm sad to say.

Plan B IS hard, RQ, but can't you see how much harder THIS is??? Death of a thousands knives...

tst - please don't say that!

SunnyD- I know. I would plan D before I did Plan B again, though. I can only give someone so many chances.

{{{{{{{{{{{RQ}}}}}}}}}}}}}

RQ, it might not be what you want to hear, but the fact that you took the step to open the door for him to come home, and he has excuses not to is very fishy.

HE is the one who screwed up, he should be chomping at the bit for a chance for redemption and reconcilliation.

Thanks HHH. You would think so, huh?

I feel totally broken hearted right now. Kiss took his clothes that were here and left tonight. I felt it was the right thing to do right now until it we seem a little more stable.
Can I scream and cry that life is not fair??! Why must I continue to be in pain and hurt for something that was not my own doing?? My family is upset with me, my WH finds me unworthy and I am just so lost.
When will my life ever be "normal" again? I hate this hurt..

I'm so sorry, RQ. As hard as you believe Plan B was - just remember - it was that hard because you weren't really IN it. Plan B, done correctly, will bring you relief. Doesn't mean it won't hurt, but it's much better than THIS.

(((((ROCKET)))))

It has been exactly 6 months since d-day#1.

Seems like yesterday...

Read these by sexymamabear. Your stories are similar.
Sexymamabear's Thread
Sexymamabear's Threads
SMB's Thread

Thanks for the links, BH. I had read one of her threads awhile ago and have been wanting to re-read it. I don't think I realized there was more than one though! Hopefully it will quiet down here at work so I can read them

*deleted

Herpapabear - would you mind sharing about the fall of '07, during the FR?

Have you read his thread?

Did you go into Plan B?

BH - I'm pretty sure I have before but it begins in 11/07. I'm reading SMB's now.
Not in Plan B

Did you read this one? HerPapaBear's Thread

I have been reading this recovery thread, sounds like you have another one in SAA but I can't find it?

unwritten, it got lost

I realize now that I need to focus on my own personal recovery before I move onto any kind of marriage recovery. I need to focus on dealing with the anger, the depression, and my feelings of low self-worth that are a result of my WH's affair.
Right now I have to heal, or I can't move on. I have been trying to do both and it doesn't work.
I will be lurking, but I won't be posting for awhile until I get these feelings sorted out.

<3 RQ

HUGS to you RQ. Keep posting, it can only help you to have people to vent to who have been there.

RQ

You do know kiss's affair was because of his poor boundaries, correct?

I'm all for self improving but worried you're blaming yourself.

MB can help you heal yourself, my friend. Stay around.

RQ - I think we are in similar places in a way.

As I learned, the very best way to get your feelings sorted out is Plan B.

I know you did not have a good experience with yours, but it was only because it was never truly implemented.

I am going in for my second round, and even having the best experience on first round (truly gave me back my sanity, self-confidence, peace), I also had excuses before moving forward this second time.

It can only be BS fog.

Please consider entering a good, dark, safe Plan B.

It is not about giving your M another chance. It is about being in the best place to see through BS and WH fogs, and then being able to make clear decisions.

Hi everyone. Still working on my personal healing. I realized that some may read this thread and wonder about the before so I thought I would fill in the blanks from before my WH and I began recovery.

It pretty much started October 25th, 2011 (at least thats what I think). My WH was upposed to meet me at my parents house for a birthday party but after not showing up for awhile, I texted him and found out he was hanging out at a local bar...by himself. He gave no expalnation for it (I later learned that he was on the phone with skank for an hour while there, their first "meaningful" converstaion).

For the next 3 weeks I got the cold shoulder from him, working late, sleeping on the couch, wouldn't kiss me, wouldn't say I<3U. Finally I couldn't take it anymore and asked him what I did that was so terrible to be treated like that. He told me that we were miserable, that the marriage wasn't working, no- counseling wouldn't help and that he wanted to split up. I was devastated and surprised to hear that I was miserable. Two nights that week he didn't even come home. Finally, on the 14th of November, he agreed to counseling and to give me another chance to be a better wife to him. The next day, feeling suspicious by his strange behavior, I checked the cell phone bill and found out about OW (AKA skank).

More to come...

You see it now it was because he was in an affair in the deep fog, correct?

Oh yes, BH, I know. And he has admitted as much and released me from any blame. But this is how it was in the beginning. I truly thought that I was a bad wife and had to change to convince him to stay. Of course I realize now that while I wasn't a great wife and did need to change my habits (meeting his EN's), that wasn't the reason for his affair. Especially since I plan A'd him like nobodies business and that didn't keep him home.

I called the number on the bill (which showed numerous calls that lasted a long time and numerous texts at all hours of the day and night) and a girl answered. I hung up on her and the rest is kind of a blur. I remember texting my WH and asking "WHO IS SHE??" (stupid I know in doing so and the delivery) and got the "nobody, just a friend I talk to". I knew it was more but he denied, denied , and denied and weeks went by when she was "just a friend". I knew she was a co-worker but he refused to give me her name, let me talk to her, or anything. I believed him. But I told him that it was inappropriate for him to speak to her and that I didn't like it and that I didn't want him doing it anymore. He thought it was "no big deal". And even though the calls and texts lessened, they never stopped and it would kill me when he would leave for work everyday because I knew he would be spending the next 11 hours working side by side with the skank.

It was at this time that I started to snoop and found out the truth

I am challenging you to look at what you wrote with fresh eyes.

"I knew it was more" <~~~ OK. But what you actually are saying is that you suspected there was more. Your gut feeling was telling you there was more going on. Yet, you had no proof. Right?

"He denied, denied, and denied" <~~~ OK. What is significant in this? You wrote it 3 times. Denials that are repeated over and over do not prove anything at all. Most 'guilty' criminals will plea "not guilty" in court. Denials are not proof. Repetative denials are not only not proof, but are actually suspicious !

"He refused to give me her name, let me talk to her, or anything" <~~~ OK. He denied wrongdoing (denied, denied, denied) but refused to cough up facts to prove his innocence.

THEN YOU WROTE
"I believed him." <~~~ Based on what? He did not offer proof of his innocence. He did not demonstrate significant care for your feelings.

In my opinion, your lesson to be learned here is to assume WH knows how to play you like a maestro plays a Stradivarius.

Stand your ground.
You require proof, not promises.

Here's another one of my hunches.
Failure to meet some of WH's ENs (prior to D-day) may not be as significant as you think. I suspect you were pretty average as far as ENs goes.
Always room for improvement in every marriage.

I suggest you look towards examining love-busters instead.

So many times, both the faithful spouse and the unfaithful spouse jabber on & on about "failure to meet ENs" .... and completely forget about the love-bank withdrawals, love-busters.

I can be a *star* EN-filling wife one day. But it all will be for naught if I also am a love-buster by habit. It took me a long time to identify myself this way. I want to pass along what I discovered.

The love bank can take loads of EN deposits .... but you won't make anyone happy until the hole in the bottom of the bank (love-busters) is repaired.

Food for thought?

hi RQ. i lost your thread! glad to have found it here on the recovery board.

where are you today? how are you?

You are absolutely right. Him lovebusting me would make me do the same to him and round and round we go. One thing I have learned is to speak my mind. Whenever I was upset about something I would hold it in until it was a humongous weight that exploded from me. Not pretty! I am actually reading "Lovebusters" now.

Letty - I'm hanging in there. Kiss and I have not been working on recovery very well and I had a talk with him last night. Again, it came to me verbalizing my needs to him rather than what I have been doing...withdrawing and expecting him to know what I need. I think he responded well but we'll see. I need actions from him, not "I'm gonna..."

So I started to snoop and found out skank's name. It wasn't easy as most of their communication outside of work was by text and he had his phone constantly by his side. In bed with him, in the bathroom with him, etc. And when I confronted him with her name after an argument, he said it was wrong (it wasn't). We started going to MC together but as he still denied a relationship with this girl and that was the only thing on my mind, we stopped going.

I did plan A him but we were constantly fighting about his "friend". I would demand the truth and he would get mad at me for asking and would not come home at night or sleep on the couch. He would avoid me and the kids like we had a contagious disease. I felt heartbroken for my kids. They would ask "where's daddy" and I had to say "I don't know". The tension at home was unbearable when he was there, but it was somber when he wasn't. I was preparing for Plan B but still needed that one piece of proof that told me that my gut was right. That I wasn't over-reacting and making up something that was not true.

Finally, on January 18th, I had my proof and it shattered my hurting heart into a hundred pieces.

I was hoping to write more today but it had quite an affect on me yesterday and I was a mess last night. Will write more when I can.

RQ thinking about you, how are you doing?

Unwritten, I'm doing OK. I was just reading through your thread the other day. I'm feeling much as you are it sounds like. NG is a shark, isn't he? And I mean that in a good way.
WH believes that we should be focusing on the present and the future and not living in the past. I think he has a point in that I need to concentrate on what he is doing NOW and what our future looks like. That sounds great and I wish I could do that. But my mind and my heart won't let me just yet. The hurt is always there and the memories of that awful time are always on my mind.

Question for anyone, do you find yourself triggered by things you read on the SAA forum? Kiss thinks that it doesn't help me to read those posts and keeps me in the past. Does anyone avoid the SAA forum because of the triggers? Just curious. I agree to a point with him, but it's not like the A isn't on my mind most of the time anyway, KWIM?

I have struggled immensely with focusing on the future, much less the present, and not dwelling on the past, clearly. Dr H's recommendation to never talk about A's again??? Just felt to me like H was getting away with highway robbery. I have seen progress though. The progress comes when I feel, even slightly, that H has a little bit of a grasp on the damage he caused. I dwelled on it and as he said 'twisted the knife in' over and over because I just felt like he didn't GET IT. And I was going to make him get it, one way or the other! Once I started to feel he understood the true extent of how bad he has hurt me, or the damage he has caused our M, then the past and nailing him with it didn't seem as important anymore. Not sure where Kiss is there, but that was my experience (still is my experience, still in the mix of it, I guess).

My H also says he feels like being on the forums too much is wallowing in the A, that it is unhealthy at some point to be on the forums. To some extent, I agree. No offense to anyone here, but I think those who know my thread will agree with me here. I know that rather than TALKING about it I need to TAKE ACTION on it, and actually work hard to recover rather than complain about why we aren't recovering. But that all being said I've learned so much on these threads, that I have been able to apply to my own situation. Every day I read new comments from one person or another that make me see things in a whole new light. I can only think that is good for us at the end. Also, after I found out about H's PA, I told very few people. A couple close friends, who wanted me to leave him and didn't want to hear about anything unrelated to leaving him. I felt very isolated and alone, and that nobody understood what I felt like. Being on here has obviously made me realize there are many, many people who know exactly what I feel like. And people who want to see my M recover and don't just want to help me find a place to hide a body.

I think it is a process. I have times now where I step away from the forums for a few days, and I know you do too. Maybe those days get longer and longer. But I do think it is good to always know you can come back for support, when you need it. I assume, since I am nowhere near it, that the stronger your M gets, the less you need this support. But hey, what do I know.

Glad to hear you are doing ok. Keep us updated.

Yup. That's why we have posters who leave and never come back because they don't like the triggers and pain it invokes in them.

Kiss may be onto something with you. You are the one that knows yourself and what you can or can not handle.

So does it cause YOU too much pain to read the SAA forum?

Unwritten - you are right about needing the support. I have no one else to talk to about it since I am avoiding discussing things with my family and Kiss doesn't want to talk about it...so I come here. Otherwise, I feel pretty darn lonely. As for them "getting it", I honestly don't think our WS's ever will since they didn't live it like we did.

Brain - I think in some ways it does cause too much pain and I should avoid it. I usually just read the advice given to the WS's to see if kiss is doing what others are being told. But maybe since he is now posting (sort of) then I can stick to the Recovery forum.

I find it hard to not compare my H to other more seemingly regretful WH's, but I think that is a dangerous place to go. My WH would never take the time to post here or seek the help that some WH's have, much less put his all into saving our M right now. Thus, my crazy babbling thread. I have to kind of step back and not compare him to what other former WH's do, and have to accept the progress HE is making, I guess.

The support is crucial. I know that feeling of isolation, it sucks.

My concern is this:

Does your H want you to stop coming here because he doesn't like that we all expect his actions to be better than they are? I know he probably doesn't like that a lot that is said on both of your threads comes down to him stepping up his game in recovery efforts. Maybe he knows if you stop visiting the forum that your expectations will lower.

Having said, that, I do know that reading CAN trigger thoughts of the past and bring up negative emotions. At the same time, it is important to work through these negatives properly - not just avoid them.

Only you know what is best for you, RQ, but be careful that you don't take actions based on improper motivations.

It's been 18 months since my H and I started recovery. He wouldn't dream of telling me not to come here, knowing it helps me have support AND helps us as a couple as well as helps me be a better spouse to him. But yes, there are times when I've taken breaks when needed too.

unwritten- yes. I think we all want our WH's to be like Herpapabear!

SunnyD- I think his concern is valid because he sees how I get sometimes after reading here, but he understands that I need the support I receive from here too. But you could be right in that he knows when I am on here that I getting the strength to keep on his a$$.

Question to test your powers of observation;

Think of a poster or two for whom you have a strong admiration. Think of their posts.

Now think, in all of their posts, how often do they mention their own marriage, at all, let alone any of the bad times...

Do they have their own thread?

How often do they update it?


Why do you think that you gave the answers you did to the previous questions?

HHH- The two posters I admire the most would have to be SunnyD and Neak. When they speak of their marriage, they speak of the here and now and not much of the past. Though it looks like it took some time to get to that point. They both have their own threads but Neak hasn't updated hers since February.

I am more of a thread jumper and can't say that I have read some of the threads all the way through. That is something I would like to do.

As for the answers I gave, I'm not sure which ones you are referring to. If you mean the ones I just gave in this post, I can see that it will take time and that I need to focus on the here, now and future and stop wallowing in the past. But I also know that I need to see actions on his part to be able to forgive and move on.

HI RQ (I don't know if you remember me but you were the first one to respond to my post, and for that I will always be thankful)

As for me, this site has been a godsend. I truly believe I would be in the process of D without it. Being able to read the articles, threads, and interact with people that have been there, done that, has been so helpful. That said, I visit and post here and there when I feel I need some support or advice. I am having trouble letting go of the past (aren't we all) and I do feel that, for me, spending too much time on this site makes it harder to let go of the past.

SS1 - of course I remember you and hope you are doing well (I'll check your thread in a minute).

I agree that this site has been a godsend and I have learned so muh and am grateful for the support from those who got me through the dark days.

I have been thinking a alot about spending time on this site and I think it is a good thing right now as it
1) Validates us in where we have been, and what we are doing and
2) keeps us from letting go of the past- as in letting down our guard (what was that saying about those who forget history are destined to repeat it?)

I don't want to live in the past but I do want to make sure that I have learned from it (as well as my WH) and that we are doing everything possible to prevent any future unhappiness ( whether A-related or not)

I also believe that if we had faith in our WS's that they were doing the work in recovery, we wouldn't be here so much

RQ, first, let me say, I'm flattered.

I think you hit the nail on the head in your last sentence here. I would advise you more confidently to take a break from the site if your H was showing 110% effort with every fiber of his being. In the posts from both of you, it has not appeared to be the case. Thus, I would hate for you to take off and have him gaslighting you and getting away with it.

Having said that, I do not KNOW that your H is not giving 110%, only you can know that for sure. There have been signs, however, in that he won't do certain things towards recovery that you need him to do and SHOULD be done, via the MB plan. So, it throws up red flags. Conversely though, you have worked with SH who has given you advice to move forward. But - has that advice been with the full knowledge that your H was not "all in?"

Where I see you sitting right now is in limbo. It's like both you and your H are sitting there with your feet in the water, waiting for the other one to get into the pool before the other one does. It's not going to work this way. You both have to dive in and get soaked, head to toe, and COMMIT to recovery.

I understand your reservations. I also understand your H's concerns, oddly enough. I know I had to make it VERY clear to my H that I was not going to stand there, whip in hand, ready to punish him at every turn when we decided to reconcile. And while he needed to earn my trust and respect back, I had to treat him with respect even as I asked for EPs to be put in place and begin our new lives together. I can't tell you how many times he assured me he would do anything necessary for me to feel safe again. I had to assure him that our marriage would be more than good - it would be GREAT - and that I wanted him to be happy too; I wanted to meet his needs.

It was the balance of both of us wanting an exceptional marriage that allowed us to jump in wholeheartedly.

Letting go of the past is hard; I'm not going to say it never enters my mind. But... I have the confidence in myself that the new me and our new marriage is better than anything that stupid affair EVER offered him! With that, and the grace of God, I press on. The support I have IRL is great but sometimes I need support from those that have been in my shoes...and I find that here.

RQ and Sunny D,

From the other side of the fence, I could not agree with you more. I have learned so much from strong BS's like you and FWW like me (although I don't think I am quite ready for the F yet.

Thank you ladies for holding me accountable and teaching me what it takes to have and keep a GREAT marriage!

15Y

RQ,

How are your and kiss's sessions going with Steve?

Thanks.



I'll tell you my observation;

When I first started posting to others, I spent a lot of time "relating" to them by doing comparisons. When we show up here limping and broken, it's comforting to think someone else might "understand" our pain, right?

Pain - emotional, physical, psychological - is very intense and internalized experience. Something we cannot fathom anyone else outside of ourselves understanding. So seemingly finding that understanding seems like a relief at first.


But, over time I noticed that it stopped helping, and instead just kept me stuck in that pain.

So, when I see longer term posters, I notice that they rarely talk about their own marriage when talking to others, and when they do they a) stick to the here-and-now as you stated, and b) do not speak negatively about their spouse.

Once the concepts of this program are implemented, any and all complaints are taken to their spouse, not here.


Thinking of that made me take a second look at one piece of recovery advice; "Once all the details are known, do not bring up the affair again."


What I now realize is not bringing it up again applies not only to conversations with my spouse, but conversation at all. Even here.

It's why I dropped all the dates etc from my sig line.


The past is real, and it happened, but it will never change no matter how much I talk about it. Today and tomorrow I can set the pace for.



There are some rare gems from some long timers, things that I can truly see now as gifts; Pep sharing her stories, the occasions that Mel shares her stories, NG providing his. But those one-shot shares can come at an emotional expense to those posters... they really are a gift.


Just thought I'd share that thought and experience with you.

Thank you SunnyD, 15years and HHH for your kind posts. I am understanding more clearly now that I do need to focus more on the here and now and on rebuilding our marrage and focus more on the MB concepts. I don't want to be a victim anymore. Will I forget the past, never. Will I still need time to heal, of course. As HHH said "it happened, but it will never change. Today and tomorrow I can set the pace for" and as you said, Sunny, I need to concentrate on a better me and a better marriage. It is what both kiss and I want and if I have to take the lead, then so be it. I need him to put a little more effort into it so that we don't return to "status quo", but I think we are on the right track. I need to move on.

BH- we have not spoken to SH in 4 weeks but we have both agreed to schedue a follow up very soon. We just need to schedule a time together during the day, which is difficult to do.

Get our there and do the work to earn the F, Fifteen!!!

Accountability in this is important - for both spouses.

There's nothing wrong with you leading recovery, RQ. Look at it this way: if you are leading, in the sense that you set the terms of what makes you feel safe and how you want things done, that's a GOOD thing!

Now: your H should be leading in terms of willingness to prove himself and how committed he is...

See the difference?

I say it all the time: the best thing I did was decide to go back to school while my H was wayward. Well, that and I became more involved with my church's women's group. Not only did it give me strength and confidence, but it kept my mind busy and some goals to achieve. We take SUCH a hit to our psyche when our partner is unfaithful. I truly believe part of being able to enter into recovery without fear is in knowing that we hold within ourselves the power to be great: greater than any fantasy world our spouse lived through - because what we are building is genuine.

Nothing worthwhile never comes easy!

You know the secret to moving on once your spouse has shown proof of their commitment? Deciding to. Simple as that. You make the decision and you start acting on your decision, even when you don't feel like it. It's because we have A PLAN that we can do this: it takes over when emotions get overwhelming.

Without a plan, one drifts along wherever their feelings take them and that's not healthy!

BH- Thanks for the links you have posted to him. Unfortunately, he has not been back to post or read as I have asked him to (or as he said he would).

SunnyD- I am having a hard time getting kiss to commit to te MB program. I really need him to post and read and to do our questionarres. I don't want to be the one with the "whip in hand" but I don't know what I can do. He already knows how important this is to me.

Asking for him to commit to the MB program is not the same as "whip in hand," RQ! MB is as much for HIS benefit as it is yours! That's the beauty of it, in fact. It is designed so that BOTH partners get their needs met and are treated well. It PREVENTS "whip in hand" in fact. I don't know if your H just does not see this or he is just not all in on recovering your marriage. ???

What about doing the MB at home program? That's what we did. You have to be self-motivated and be absolutely certain to following it step by step, in a timely manner, but it can be done. There's also the online program and as you know, the personal counseling with SH.

If your H isn't willing to commit to at least doing the at home program, you have very good reason to be concerned about your future and whether or not you will recover. As it's always said - the road to marital recovery after an affair is a very narrow one. My H never posted here and we didn't do online or personal counseling. BUT...I was insistent that we follow the books/workbook to a tee. Once H got into it and saw that it wasn't a "browbeat the unfaithful spouse to death" program he HAPPILY did it. He WANTED us to have an exceptional marriage as much as I did. He didn't walk back into the marriage wanting the same old things that lead to the big crisis, that's for sure.

It makes a big difference when the unfaithful understands that the program is so you can have a happy future - it is NOT a punishment for what they did.

The only thing with doing the MB at home program is this: if your H is a reluctant participant, he will fight you every step along the way. That worries me. There HAS to be accountability - on both sides. If he WANTS a great marriage, he won't be bothered by that, or shouldn't be. In the at home program, you hold each other accountable rather than an outside source - and that can be hard if he is doing this kicking and screaming. Just to add, that's why he has been questioned on the boards to this point - his mentality. It's hard for anyone to see that he really WANTS recovery when he won't willingly see his own faults and stinkin thinkin in all this.

Do you think this has become sort of a stand off between the two of you?

Sunny - It's more that he says he will and that he wants to, but then doesn't. I know that he wants a better marraige than we had before, he has said that from the beginning. So I don't know why I have to be nagging him to work on this. We plan on discussing it tonight. Hopefully, we can make some progress.

What makes one ready for being a FWW instead of a WW in your opinion?

What makes one ready to be a FWW vs a WW in your opinion?

So, do you think it comes down to laziness or procrastination then?

If that's the case, rather than reluctance, then you are both going to have to get strict with setting some deadlines in completing things, coupled with consequences when they don't get done. Consequences could be a call in to SH or another form of accountability, like confessing on here that you didn't do something...and having to take the licks for it.


Can you assure us that there is no more gaslighting on his part? He's not telling you he wants to do it just to keep you off his back, right??? Remember...RADICAL honesty is expected between the two of you.

And for your part - are you staying clear of A talk and focusing on actions?

Tonight you guys need to sit down and focus on the BENEFITS of what the rewards of the MB program will bring to your lives - and not just yours - but your children's as well!

SunnyD- Sorry I took so long to reply. I think the main problem is that he has not read many of the books and so doesn't know about things such as the Protections in Marriage, etc. I also think we are severely lacking in IC (I don't feel that he is being open and honest to me about what he feels or thinks, even though I straight out ask him). There is also a lack of accountablity and accounting of time. Yor question about gas-lighting, I don't think so but sometimes just a simple thing of him not answering my texts is a huge trigger for me and puts back to the A days. Sometimes I feel so weak and paranoid and like I am losing my mind. Anyway, I plan on printing out more EN questionnaires and having us fill them out.

On another note, our 11th wedding anniversary is this saturday. I went to the card store to get kiss an anniversary card. Ugh, what an awful experience. Any one of them I would have gotten a year ago, now...not so much. It made me sad...and it made me angry that he destroyed that in me. Going to try another store today and hope I can find something, but it will difficult and may walk out emty-handed again.

PS I am sttering clear of A talk and trying to watch his actions

Are you and Kiss doing the at home program/online program at all? Or just separately reading some of Dr Harley's books? I forgot what program you are following.

I am not in a position to give advice as you know, but I will say that right now I generally go for the fun, playful cards and not the meaningfully written cards. Kinda feel like it will help recovery more to be playful than to add another heaviness to it. Plus, Hallmark doesn't make cards for this exact situation...

Very true, uw! Perhaps a company should, they would do well, lol. Did not find anything at the last store I went to and even the funny ones had some note of ...blech.

We are not doing either program, but rather have the books and the workbook. I have read SAA, HNHN and Lovebusters. He has listened to HNHN on audio. I looked at the lovebusters questionaire and just couldn't think of anything to write. Neither one of us have AO's, selfish demands, etc. Well, we probably do, but not anything I can reflect back on and say, oh! That was a selfish demand. We do best with the EN's one. I think that one helps with conversation between us and opening up talk about unhappiness. We also still need to make an appt with SH. We won't have a day off together during the week until the end of June!

Good. Every time you two discuss it, you take things back to day 1.

It's self-flagellation at it's worst.








While you do this, try to silence that inner gremlin that tells you he's full of crap (I would also suggest not listening to that little voice's advice to aerate him with a high-heeled shoe).



Stop bringing up the A, redirect your thoughts.

Have you seen Dr. Harley's new article?
How To Negotiate When You're An Emotional Person

Thanks for the link, BH. It helps.

Got through the anniversary OK. Spent the earlier part of the day with my parents, brothers, in laws, aunt and my grandfather who was visting for the day. A bit awkward since kiss is still not welcome there. He has yet to speak to my parents and at this point, I'm not sure he will.

Then kiss and I went to dinner and to a play. We had a really nice time and I just focused on spending time with him rather than on our vows that he stomped all over. Had a rough spot earlier in the day but I endured it and then moved on.

We meet with the MC again on monday but I don't see that she is helping and would rather switch over completely to coaching with SH. Just have to convince kiss.

HUGS RQ.

Sounds like you had a good head on your shoulders on anniversary day. I agree it is best to focus on the moment instead of the meaning, right now.

I was thinking about you while looking for a Father's Day card for H. They didn't seem to make any fitting. I got one that said "Not long ago, a husband could come home to find his slippers, a drink, the evening paper, and his beautiful wife waiting for him. Oh well, at least you still get the beautiful wife part." Modesty at its finest.

Glad you and Kiss had a good anniversary.

I can totally relate to the card situation... it can be difficult finding something appropriate when the wounds are still so fresh. Just know that it DOES get easier with time! Next year it will a TON better and even more so the following year. It helps to keep in mind that your long-term goal of a great marriage is what's most important.

RQ, you need to set an agreed upon deadline for him to complete the books. The problem is, he can't possibly fully get why certain things are important (like answering your texts right away or being radically honest) if he doesn't have a good grasp on the basic principles of the program. Once he understands, my bet is he will follow through with actions much more easily.

The lack of accountability is a problem that must be addressed! If the two of you can't hold each other accountable, then it is essential that you do the online program or personal counseling with one of the MB marriage coaches so that you stay on track.

The books are easy to read and don't take long. Make this a priority! The questionnaires will need to be redone after awhile as your needs will change in different stages of recovery - or at least that was my experience.

Very true, but short of shoving the books in front of him, I just don't know what else to do. He just does not seem to be willing to learn how to have a great marriage using the MB concepts. Nor has he posted in a while. We spoke about this in MC last night and he will nod his head and say he will but is not following through in the actions. I don't know how much longer I will be able to hold on waiting for him to WANT this. I have read all of the books so far as well as all of the articles on here.

Well...it should have been a condition of your willingness to begin the road to recovery with him. Since it wasn't, I'm not sure what you can do either unless you are willing to play hardball. The thing is, the path to true healing only comes from having a better marriage - an EXCEPTIONAL marriage - after the affair. If that doesn't happen and real change doesn't take place, you are asking for trouble down the road. And this new marriage only occurs because of specific actions taken on a narrow road.

I would urge you to find it within you to make this MANDATORY or you will not find the peace you are looking for. We can all support you through that, but it has to be you that stands up for it, ya know?

I don't know how to put that icon for banging your head against a wall...because I know exactly how you are feeling.

As you know RQ, I have been there! WHY oh why can the person who derailed the train in the first place and states they want to do !!whatever it takes!! to put it back on the tracks, just DO it. Stop talking about it, then being lazy about it, or whatever the heck their reason for not 'really' wanting it is, and just DO it. All talk no action. Its just completely and utterly frustrating.

Hugs to you. I have no advice, just want you to know you are not alone with this frustration.

I was just reading some stuff on chickadee's thread, wanted to write something to you in regards to one of your posts and not t/j. I know you have said that you didn't want or ask for any details from Kiss about his A. And I just read now that you feel he has still withheld details. Now I can only speak from experience, but the 'not knowing' has eaten at me over the years. I came to the point where I had to know ALL of the truth, every gorry detail. Not that I necessarily needed to know the actual detail as much as I needed to know that H was willing to give me ANY information I requested, in an O&H way. Whether that has happened remains to be seen, tomorrow at the poly... I just cannot move forward with recovery without knowing that H has been completely O&H with me. Being willing to tell me anything and everything, to me was part of 'getting it,' that he damaged me and he has to do whatever I ask to heal me and for a chance at recovery.

Since we have been at similar points in our recovery, not really able to put both feet in the water, I am thinking you might want to explore if this is a need you have too? To me, if Kiss is unwilling to give you ALL details or information you want to know, in an O&H way, then it doesn't fare well for his true commitment to recovery, which speaks volumes to your OWN commitment to recovery. Just a thought.

Also, H was telling me last night that in hindsight of his PA early in our M, and the fact that he buried it and kept it a secret for years, continuing with that type of behavior and lying along the way...he says that he can see now just how much it kept him from engaging with me and having an emotionally intimate relationship with me. I used to always complain about his "H hugs" where he would hug me but use his thumbs to try and push me away. And how he would never look me in the eye. He says now he thinks he just felt like engaging with me, looking me in the eye, would allow me to see who he truly was and the secrets he was hiding. Part of the protection for him and his secrets was to keep me at arms length. The testament to that is since telling me about his PA, he has never, to my recollection, done an "H hug" and he always looks me in the eye now. There is a huge difference in his interest at engaging me.

My point by all that is, if Kiss still has some secrets, or hasn't been completely O&H with you about his A, still feels like he has some items in 'the vault' as I like to call it, it could possibly be in the way of HIM engaging in recovery and being able to intimately invest in this.

But as we know, I have no answers, just a lot of random thoughts, lol.

You bring up some good points, Unwritten!

A WS doesn't earn their "F" until they are willing to do ANYTHING... and maybe they aren't willing to do just anything yet, because they are afraid of having their feet held to the fire on the O&H part.

Mind you, no WS WANTS to tell details. I'm not saying they should be jumping up and down with joy ready to talk about it til the cows come home...but still: there HAS to be a willingness. It's the least they can do - no matter how much shame they suffer momentarily - after what they have put their faithful spouses through.

I'm Ok with not knowing the exact BEGINNING of the A. I had asked and he wasn't sure when he started having feelings for her and to me, it doesn't really matter. It really doesn't change things for me. I am already hurt by what was done and how he acted that finding out more when I am trying to heal will not help. Thanks for the thoughts though. That is just how I feel. I know some need to know the down and dirty details but I sure don't!

Things have been going very well lately with the exception of him being here (on the site I mean lol). We had agreed that he would at least read the articles on here and post. We have been quite busy cleaning and such as his parents and sister will be in town tomorrow and spending the week with us. I have mixed feelings about it as I feel they had abondoned me during the Jan-March Plan B time. But for the sake of my kids, I will put on my big girl panties and be a gracious host to them.

I'm falling more in love with kiss every day as we continue to spend lots of UA time together and he continues to meet my EN's.

Unwritten - I just re-read your post and I think that what I could do is ask "Is there anything else I should know that you haven't been radically open and honest about?" That should cover any secrets, yes?

Did you make your feelings known to Kiss - about his family visiting? Remember, everything should be POJA'd - and if you didn't want his family staying with you for a week, that should have been negotiated. H and I recently went through this - so I'm just asking. Remember, it's not your job to "suck it up" and go with the flow. In fact, it's not either of your jobs.

My parents came to town for a week and we had them stay at a hotel for part of the time. It was not the easiest thing to deal with - the way my mother is - but my husband came first! Putting your big girl panties on does not sound like this visit is something you enthusiastically agreed to.

In my opinion, this is a pretty vague question that leaves plenty of room for him blowing it off. Technically you are correct, but I don't know that it's a question that will bring radical honesty. But... just my opinion.

I, like you, didn't want details. I wanted to know the basics and that was about it. I know myself too well - and I felt that if I had to deal with every little detail that I would not be able to reconcile with my husband. I've wondered at times if I will ever come to regret that decision (to not demand all the details) but so far I haven't, not at all. I think you have to be careful of not wanting to know because you want to stick your head in the sand vs. making an educated decision to not pursue those questions, however.

I also think there are certain things that even though you don't really want to know - you SHOULD know. Otherwise, you will never be able to fully move on as a couple.

Yes I know there are lots of BS's that don't WANT any details. By all means do not ask for them then, because they will haunt you. I think its crazy that any of us DO want them, why would the brain want that info??? But I guess I am not the only one. I was just thinking that if there is anything more intentionally deceptive that you didn't ask and he didn't tell, if it could be hindering your recovery. Your question might lead him into details and if you don't want to know that, you might want to clarify, or specifically ask things that you think he may have been deceptive about. Or not at all, if it doesn't bother you, because I certainly don't want to pick YOUR scabs too lol!

Good luck with the inlaws, don't let that stressful sitch put a wrench in your recovery, sounds like things are going well!

People usually want them because it helps make sense of what happened. And...sometimes not knowing is worse: the brain can conjure up things that are possibly more horrid than what actually happened. Knowing takes the guessing game out of it. It is what it is - no more/no less. That's why there are basics that HAVE to be told.

I know I had said before that I didn't want to know all the details of the A, but it is really starting to bother me that I feel that kiss is still lying to me about when the A began. I KNOW that it was before January but he still denies it. I know that they were in the same car with each other after work on January 18, on January 19th is when I packed his stuff and put him out, and on Jan 20, he is telling her that he is "excited about tomorrow night. Make sure you get plenty of sleep". I think what is bothering me is that he is not being completely open and honest about things from the past and about his present thoughts and feelings.

We have an appt with SH on thursday so we can address it then.

This is definitely concerning. It's one thing to not want to have details and therefore, not discuss them. Totally different if he's lying about them. Glad you have an appt to sort this out!

I just wanted to say that I have a hard time not knowing everthing that happened (details) of my husbands affair but I have to tell myself what good would it do to know? It would only hurt me that much more. But like you, it bothers me to no end. Please tell me that the pain, thoughts about it, worry,etc will go away with time. I am so worried that if I dont stop blowing up ever so often about the whole thing (the past), he will eventually throw his hands up of the whole recovery. I do good for a few and then I just have to vent. Of course, your spouse IS your best friend so you obviously want to talk to them but they are the ones that made you the way you are being in the first place. SO FRUSTRATING!The cheating spouse doesnt understand how they have backed you in a corner. You can either divorce the person you love the most and see your kids part time or you can deal with it and somehow manage to work thru it. That is why infidelity is so painful. The one you trust, love and respect the most (your best friend) stabs in the back over and over with lies, deceit, and giving their body to someone else is crushing.

Coop, you have to stop thinking that knowledge is painful. It's NOT! The pain only comes from the acts/behaviors that the knowledge is about. Even without the knowledge, the suspicion will hurt as much.

Can you start your own thread, please? Expanding on the sentence above will not be of short duration, and my highjacking RQ's thread would be...impolite. There are a host of FBWs here on MB that will happily (wrong word: freely?) give you the attention and support you seem to require.

Here's a radio clip about contacting the OW after the affair is over and sending her nastygrams.
Radio clip about contacting OW after affair is over at 5:00 min mark

Thanks, Brain. Not the answer I wanted to hear (grrrr) but one I needed to hear. I had the same situation as the caller. I get triggered by someone who looks like OW. Kiss and I spoke about my feelings towards skank yesterday and he had told me that she had been telling him to go back to his family. I guess I should be thankful for that and that she isn't a vindictive bi+(h but still...

coop, I understand how you feel. It's difficult for the WS to "get" the pain and suffering they caused and contine to caues unless they are actively working towards recovery. Are you and you WS doing that? Please start a new thread so we can get to know you better and help you.

Oh goodness I need to listen to that clip from BH. But I don't want to because its going to tell me to 'let go' of my devious plans for revenge.

I know what you mean about people who LOOK like OW. H and I do P90X and we LOVE the workouts, but there is a girl in one of the videos (one of my favorites of course) that reminds me of OW. The good news it makes me work crazy hard because I am spurred by the sight of her (or nearly her). Before anyone tells me to ditch the video, I will say I am DONE giving things up for this ho. I happen to like this video/workout and I am not giving one more thing up for her.

RQ for me the reality is much better than the things my brain constructs on its own. In fact my brain STILL tries to continue to construct things that I know for a fact (poly) didn't really happen. My brain wants me to dwell on this. That little devil thing.

I agree with you that more than knowing the details tho, its knowing that Kiss is willing to give you any info/details that you ask at any time, to help with your recovery. It definitely is a showing of remorse to do so. Have you ever had him write them all down as some people suggest? Have you considered a poly or do you not feel you need one?

unwritten, that is EXACTLY what it will tell you to do. Don't listen!!! LOL, I'm just kidding. But Dr. Harley says that you dont want to give the OW any documentation that may be construed (and used against you) as a threat. A phone call on the other hand.....

For me, I can't say that I can believe what he says the reality is. For example, one evening I had stopped by his condo and had to pick something up of my DS's and I had my DD7 with me. After much knocking, WH finally came to the door. He was disheveled and I noticed skank's pocketbook on the table by the door. Mind you, this was a day or two after him telling me things were over between them and telling me he loved me and missed me and wanted me back (!). Anyway, my mind has played that scene back and imagined what I interrupted many, many times. I finally asked him about it and he said nothing was going on and that she was hiding in the bathroom (riiight, I'm supposed to believe that). So, do I believe him, let it go or demand him to be truthful?

We had a session with SH today and I am so glad that we did. I realize that SH is our (my) best hope to heal from my injury and be able to recover. It will take a lot of the pressure off of me as far as WH's "work" and let me focus on cleaning my side of the street. I plan on making an appointment for next week as well. I honestly feel it is worth every penny and it is nice to have a plan. I do so love to have a plan of action for eveything I do! Unwritten and other BS's out there struggling with recovery would benefit greatly from the coaching center.

I'm so glad to hear your session went well. What did SH say about the questions you have regarding O&H about A details? I would say if there is a situation like you described plaguing your mind, you need the answer to it. I would back it up with a poly but you know me I needed that poly.

In the middle of trickle truth we had a session with SH. I will admit I entered that session with venom spewing from my lips, my attitude was so cold and hostile I am sure he could feel it through the phone. I was PO'D to no end. I knew H was still lying. I was downright tired and pxxxed off at being made to feel like the dumb crazy wife at home, all the while H was cheating and lying and doing God knows what with God knows who.

H set the session up. He talked first for a long time, then I got on the phone. The rest of the conversation was something along the lines of why I was too resentful to allow recovery to take place, why I didn't want recovery, why I didn't want to be happy. Um, because this lying cheat is still lying to me, duh. I felt ganged up on, for sure. I was shaking so bad during that call I felt like a rat in a maze and I just wanted to GET OUT, like claustrophobia to the max, can't imagine what I would have done if I was actually sitting in someones office!

So, there's my one and only experience. I know I was in a bad place, and I am in a better place mentally now. Much more willing to 'learn.' But I am a little bitter that there was no mention to H about coming clean, taking a poly, or any of those things. I would have liked to have some focus of that session on H coming clean and being O&H, what TRUE recovery was, not FR where there were still secrets and lies.

One of those things that caused me resentment, its bad enough to lie and cheat but then to do MB and pretend you are committed to R when you are lying to SH and still lying and cheating....KWIM. Like why even initiate recovery work if you still want to live that life. MB and SH at the point was an effort to further manipulate me and keep me in check so he could continue his SL.

So you can see why THIS time around I was a little...apprehensive at his efforts.

We have been doing the at home program this summer and have ditched our MC for now, kindof felt like while we were engrossed in the home program there wasn't a need for another perspective on things. I think I will definitely considering switching to SH if we need to do more this summer.

I voiced my concerns about the O&H part, but I don't know what SH said to kiss about it. I do feel that SH is better for us and that we should ditch our current MC who does nothing for us.

I had a phone conversation with the OW in my sitch. I didn't call her - she actually called me after I had exposed the affair to her BIL and wife. It was quite surreal. I was calm and classy - but I also set her straight on a few things. To this day I felt I had the perfect conversation with her - but it was only because of God that I was able to have such clarity and composure. I had prayed for the exact words to say if she called. (H had told me she might.)

I won't lie: it felt awfully good to take her down a notch or two without breaking a sweat. But... I'm not sure I would have gone looking to do so if she hadn't called.

In my opinion, she and H both were to blame; it would have been different if she didn't know he was married.

It was mentioned that it might give the OW some sense of satisfaction to seek her out now - and that is a very good point. The time to confront the AP is during exposure.

As for O&H that's a tough one. I can't imagine that SH would be for a spouse not coming clean. However, he probably would want the focus to be on the here and now, not the past. Remember, once the initial disclosure is done it is the job of both spouses to leave the A in the past - which is hard for a BS to do often times. Maybe the situation was being read in such a way that it was thought that's what was happening.

Once my H and I got to the business of doing the MB program full time we did not feel the need to go back to traditional marriage counseling, really. We did a few times afterwards but only so that our MC could help us in a few areas. In fact, it was mainly in the O&H area that we consulted her on, after I'd given her the program books to review. We were so used to not being frank with each other that it helped to have her there to aid in having honest discussions with each other.

In my sitch I didn't know about the A's until years later, so there wasn't some grand exposure during the A. If there had been an ongoing A you better believe there would have been a face to face meeting with my POSOW.

I did send OW#1 a letter and like you SunnyD it was classy. I am proud of the fact that I was in control and it wasn't all Jerry Springerish. I think it had more of an impact that way.

You are right about SH wanting to keep it about the here and now and not the past, but when H was still lying to me about so many things how could I have been expected to invest in recovery when I KNEW it was a FR? I agree with not rehashing but I do think that if there are still lies and/or unanswered questions that needs to be addressed FIRST, that is not rehashing because it's never been hashed to begin with.

It seems a lot of times when people want to rehash, it is because they still feel there is deception somewhere.

Good point: if it hasn't been hashed in the first place it can't be rehashed!

Some people instinctively know they still don't have the truth and therefore, want to pursue the topic still. Other times, a BS just can't let go and he or she stays stuck. I would imagine it isn't always easy to tell which is the case.

I also think that there are times FWSs have a hard truly recalling events properly - they were in SUCH a wayward mindset when it all happened. My H swears he never said or did certain things - and I believe he really doesn't remember. BUT...there's a difference between not knowing every detail correctly and purposefully lying about what happened. I know it can be shame or not wanting to cause further hurt that they don't want to share... but it is hard for a BS to dive into recovery with both feet if the offending spouse isn't willing to bare all.

Having said that: the most important ingredient for successful recovery is the willingness of both spouses to commit 100% to the recovery program - not what happened in the past.

RQ, why don't you address this with both SH and KISS? you take the phone first, tell SH about this specific sitch, and ask him to have KISS on the phone w/you to help when you say you want the truth from him about this? is this the last thing you need to know? because you really need to put the past behind you. you are paying for SHs time. use it for what you need. you need O&H, and you feel you're not getting it. but make sure this is it, ok? did you do a poly? because that's another way you could get at the truth.

you will always, i'm afraid, wonder about some things. even after i spend days on all my Qs, once i had the answers, other questions popped into my head. but when i thought about them, they weren't really things i needed to know. just little ways to aggravate myself. i put them out of my head and just focus on recovery. however, this specific Q of yours, i think, needs answering. you *know* she was there. you *know* KISS isn't being O&H about this. you need him to be. don't apologize for what you *need* to recover. KISS can't recover with you if he is still hiding things from you, even if he's doing it to not hurt you anymore. once you have the full truth, you *will* be able to recover.

Here's an excellent clip on forgiving the OW.
Radio clip on Forgiving the OW
Segment #2

Tell us what you think.

BH, thanks for that clip. I'll listen in a minute. We went to church today and again the topic of forgiveness came up. And again, i searched inside myself to see if I have the ability yet to forgive kiss, and I just don't feel it yet. But I continue to pray for that ability. I find it difficult to believe I'll ever forgive her. LOL

Kiss spoke to me a bit last nighht about his talk with SH. He gave me a written NC plan that demonstrates his plan for ensuring NC with skank. SH also spoke to kiss about the trauma involved in regards to his adulterous actions. I told kiss that I never deserved that. No matter what kind of a wife I was or wasn't and what needs I met or didn't, no one deserves that kind of betrayal. Kiss agreed with that and I am glad that unlike his first post here on MB, he gets that.

We'll be speaking to SH again this week. I'm very optimistic about our sessions with him and I am glad that I don't feel that I have to keep kiss accountable. I can step back and let SH and the MB group do that. That is a blessing to me.

~RQ

That's what's so interesting about that clip. Dr. H States that the other person must ask for forgiveness.

Very helpful clip, BH, thank you!! It helped me a lot. I also understand the difference between forgiveness and "letting go and moving on". I think I can do the latter with skank. As for Kiss, I can stop beating myself up for not forgiving him when it hasn't been asked for.

That was an interesting clip BH.

What did you think?

Honestly, I hope he doesn't ask yet. He still has a way to go in making amends and has yet to speak to my family. Even though numerous people have advised him to do so.

I totally agree with the Harley's. The difference bw forgiveness and 'letting go.' I will hopefully be able to forgive my H once he has given me JC, and I feel a bit of safety again. I will never FORGIVE the nasty OW's that trashed my life and walked away. But hopefully I will be able to let go of the resentment and vengeance, I guess.

So convincing.

That all just seems so far away yet.

Exactly.

Going to dinner tonight for my dad's birthday. I'm sad that kiss will not be able to join us as he has still not patched that issue. My father would be quite upset to seem my WH there. Oh well, nothing I can do about that

Been having a funky day today. Feeling hypersensitive about thingsaid, done, not done, etc. After my IC thi afternoon, I realized things were triggering me and I wasn't aware they were triggers. But I did complain to kiss about what was bothered me (finances and such) and I am glad I did. In the past, I would be it inside and be bitter and po'd about it. Now we are in a place where we can ha e a productive conversation about it.

Headed to nyc soon to see kiss's idol, ace, and get in some good UA time

I apologize for the typos, using my Droid and it won't let me fix them

Excellent radio clip on this very issue.
Radio clip on how to get over my Husband's Affair

Yeah 2 years. That sucks. Sometimes I wish I had a sound proof rubber room so that when the thoughts/visions invade my mind, I can put myself in there and pound the walls and scream my broken heart out.

I don't know if I can 2 years of that. But what choice do we have?

I understand completely. It's important to keep the long term goal in mind. Sometimes I try and envision the future when the past enters my mind. I'll think of H walking DD down the aisle, for instance, or at one of the kid's college graduations... anything that reminds me of why and how the hard work is going to pay off even bigger and better in the future. This recovery business isn't just for us: it's for our kids, grandkids, and on down the line too!

It really is crucial that you keep your mind as busy as possible during down moments. Of course, sometimes those moments serve a purpose: to motivate us to keep to a high standard for our recovery!

Thanks SunnyD, I will try that!

I need some input on this. I just saw that kiss spoke to someone from his former workplace (where skank works) yesterday for 10 minutes. Now he did not tell me about this. It could have been anybody and there be a completely legitimate reason (he still works for the company) and still has many friends there. He could have spoken to skank.

How would you other recovering BS's handle this? Any former waywards feel that I shouldn't read too much into this?

I am not angry about it, but this shows a breach in transparency. I shouldn't have to find out from other resources.

I have not asked him about it as I know that I have trouble believing anything he says anyway. It's actions I feel secure in.

What say you?

Oops, wrong thread.

Oops, wrong thread.

It may be just a trigger. Seeing that number come up.

You should ask him about it immediately. Normally you don't bring up triggers specifically, but in the case of possible contact, it needs to be addressed.

You don't need to accuse him - you just need to state that you need to feel secure in this relationship, so you would like to know who he spoke with. And of course, O&H is extremely important, so he needs to give you an honest answer.

I don't think you should read too much into it, but at the same time, he needs to be clear on the fact that any time he speaks to someone from that #, he needs to tell you. I would even go so far as to say that he not take calls from that # and should block it. Friends or associates can use their cellphones to call him if needed.

There needs to be NO open doors or windows for contact!

Sorry for the t/j.

RQ did you see movingonward's response about the IM to you?

Sunny- thanks. I'll speak to him about it. It's one of those things where I feel I shouldn't have to be specific about it and he should know it was wrong but he is not gonna think it was wrong because I wasn't specific. KWIM?

Brain- I was just about to mosey over there. Thanks

Ask him about it. Perhaps it was a different random person and he didn't even think about the connection, the person who was wayward doesn't necessarily think of everything in the same way the BS does KWIM. I think it is very important that you bring it up, and I also think his response is important. If he is upset that he unknowingly did something to make you feel uncomfortable you will know, but if he is instead upset about getting caught doing something he shouldn't have you will also know.

Occasionally something comes up where I get a tinge of suspect with H. Not regarding an OW, as much as just a number that I don't know, him talking on his phone and going into another room, etc. Sometimes I do not say something until later, and whenever I do he is adamant that I should immediately question him on things so he can show me who he was talking to or in any other way make me comfortable with it, and that I should never just choose to not say anything to him about it. In other words, he wants the opportunity any time that occurs to make me feel safe. So give Kiss that opportunity.

And thats great that you have offered to be an IM. I have thought about it, maybe down the road when I am further in R and have absorbed more of the good Dr's principles, seen more IM action online, etc. I have never used an IM/done the Plan B thing so I feel like it is out of my element, but being a fellow BS and MBer I guess that makes me as qualified as your average friend or family member.

Pay it forward like you said.

That is what I was thinking. But I also didn't want to ignore it either. If it bothers me, then I should tell him and give him that opportunity. I can't control what he says or does, only how I react to it.

PS. I have wanted to be an IM but never felt qualified enough. I think we all feel the same way. But experience is a valuable educator! And besides, they have no children so that should be easier for a novice like me

So, I asked him about the phone call and if you have read his post you know what his answer was. I didn't believe him. But, I knew that I wouldn't.

I agree with those who posted to him. That he should have been forthcoming about the phone call before it was madeand had done it in my presence and at the very least, tell me about it shortly after. To me, this was a break in NC. Even if he did talk to someone else, he could have still received info about skank. Now that he has been schooled by my wise MB friends (thank you!) it hopefully won't happen again.

He still needs to learn about the Rules of care and Protection. And I think he would learn a lot from other threads. But he has come a long way and is trying hard to earn that "F". Who knows, maybe one day he will pay it forward and help other WH's

PS I had asked him to read his thread from beginning to end and tell me what he thought. He read the first post and recognized a lot of things that were foggy. I'm anxious to hear what he has to say about the rest.

What is it about his response that you did not believe? Do you believe he was actually calling there to speak with the POSOW? (I had to throw that POS in there cuz, ya know.) Or do you think he really was calling for someone else but may have asked about skanky? Did you ask him this, if he got any 'updates' about skanky?

It seemed contrived. But like I said. I have trouble believing anything!

No, he has told me many times that he will not screw this up. I have to believe him on that. He knows any contact without telling me and he would be OUT



I believe he did call for someone else


I should have asked him if he heard anything about skank. That is what I m worried. Someone passing info along him to him and making him have feelings (feeling sorry) about her.

We are moving on for now. But I'll be on high alert.
Thanks unwritten

Just got an e-mail from Joyce that my e-mai was on the radio program today. I had asked about kiss not educating himself about MB principles and posting. I'll have a listen in a bit. It sounded like they were confused about my question.

In the meantime, I have noticed that our UA time lately has been lacking.

Hmmm....maybe the lacking UA time also contributed to your not believing him about the phone call. If your love bank was not high enough it would make sense that his explanation would not be as palatable. Not that you wouldn't have triggered over the call if UA time had been adequate, but it's possible the explanation would have gone over better with you. (Or maybe I'm totally off base and the lack of UA time has been AFTER the phone call incident.)

Will be interesting to hear what the answer was to the radio question.

Honestly, I feel our UA has always fallen way short of 20 hours. (Someone broke it down to 5 4-hours dates!) But we are spending a lot more time than we used to. It's hard with his work hours.

The last time we spent alone time together for more than an hour was a week ago when we went to NYC. I need more than that. Especially as I am feeling on the low point of this roller coaster right now.

My H created some kind of program to keep track of our UA time, I think he has it on his iphone. So we can easily keep track of our 'plan' vs our 'reality' as it is occurring (and get credit for those 20 mins we happen to steal away on the deck for IC and margaritas, or whatever).

Ya I'm not sure how one would pull of 5 4 hour dates. First off, I pay our babysitter $6/hr and even though we do quite well, I don't think I could afford that! Although since our babysitter is our daughter and we make her save some for college, it is kindof a win win for us. But I don't think I could coerce her into babysitting that much anyway...

We plan half hour here, 20 mins there, in whatever way we can. That might be, like I said, 20 mins on the deck having a drink when he gets home, or a 30 min walk, or locking ourselves in the bedroom to talk uninterrupted for a few minutes. Etc. Not the best plan, I would LOVE the 5 dates! But it works for us right now. As the kids get older life gets easier that way, I hope.

unwritten, that is pretty much what we do. A little bit here and a little bit there. One date night a week is what we try to do and we usually can pull it off.

My kids are young too so I'm sure it will get easier as they get older.

I listened to the show and realized why they were confused. I asked what to do when a WS isn't on board with MB pronciples, and doesn't read the books, articles, forums or knows what the heck PORH is. They read it the other way around. LOL

I emailed Joyce back because she had asked for clarification so we'll see if the topic is re-addressed again.

Ya thats a rather big difference!

If you are following the discussion on my thread regarding need meeting at all, it ends with me having a bad day.

I thought we were doing really well! Now I feel like we are just doing everything wrong and it will all implode on itself sooner or later.

The whole need meeting/POJA thing is a concept that I clearly do not 'get' yet.

One of those days when I feel like this is too hard. Kinda just want to go do some IB and be alone for awhile. But its date night, so I can't. Probably a good thing.

I'm on that bend of the roller coaster myself. I did another EN questionnaire and will have kiss do one as well. I've been feeling...ignored. I guess you could say.

I thought you were doing well, too. I'll read the latest on your thread.

Oh its kinda long. I have that way about me.

Yes, it definitely grew since I read it last.....oh 6 hours ago! Lol

Having a rough week. Emotions are all over the place and I bounce from depression to anger. Feel like I am settling when I want more. kiss has noticed i've been off this week and I told himy feelings. It gets worse when he doesn't work on our recovery.

Just want to to say that if I posted on your thread and seemed a bit snippy, I apologize.

I have like 2 seconds here....busy couple of days for me. But, I just wanted to reassure you, RQ, that it is perfectly normal to have ups and downs during all of this. Just because you're on a downturn this week doesn't mean that recovery is going badly. Stick to the plan and you'll be fine.

Something I had to remind myself of that I try and remind others of as well is that it is still a process that you must go through, not around. The depression and anger is part of that - as is the feeling that you want more. Make sure you are being specific when you tell Kiss what your needs are - and no matter what - don't bring the past into the present. It WILL get better.
The biggest mistake we make at times is expecting the other person to step up their game but not telling them exactly how. We make ourselves crazy if we're just expecting them to jump through hoops without even knowing where there are.

Remember to think very specifically about what needs you are needing met and how Kiss can meet them. Don't fall into the trap of, "if he really loved me, I shouldn't have to tell him to do X, Y, or Z...." It doesn't work that way.

Sunnyd, thanks for your time! I do notice that we will do well right after a coaching session when kiss is really working on our recovery and then that slacks off and I start to feel depressed and angry about everything. But he does know what he needs to do (in fact he has it n writing) but just doesn't seem to care enough to do it. I question if that is the marriage that I want. I want/deserve someone who cares enough about it that I do.

The saying "not marriage at all costs" is ringing through my head.

Well, you're right: he does need to work the program - and if he already has proper "instructions," he needs to follow through.

I think part of the problem comes from your having more motivation to change things. You've been through the trauma of betrayal that Kiss has not. I've found the same thing with my marriage here and there throughout recovery too: I have to push for things more because my H is just happy to have his family back, etc... so life is really good if you ask him! He didn't have to endure the pain that I did - as Kiss did not have to with you either.

There are times when I'm pushing for us to be better and he is willing, but he's not the one doing the pushing because he's happy and content. I, on the other hand, have to deal with triggers and PTSD, as do you. It isn't that my H doesn't care whether or not our marriage is good - it's that he thinks it really is! So, during the moments where I've had to be the one to ask for more effort, I've always tried to make sure H knows it benefits us both - not just me. I remind him that our marriage HAS to be better than ever - that change IS necessary; otherwise we will end up even worse off that the conditions that led to the A.

If you've explained all this to Kiss and he still isn't doing the work - you guys need to get to the bottom of it. Is he just being lazy? Does he not see change as necessary? Is he being self-centered and just viewing things from the perspective that HE is happy so you should be too?

Get to the root of the cause as to why he's not keeping up his end of the bargain and then you'll know better where things stand.

Actually, what you said absolutely makes sense! I think it's what you said that to him things seem really great and that he is happy to have his wife and family back. He always tell me how lucky he is. But I still deal with all the triggers and emotions so I get stuck when it doesn't seem like he is putting in any recovery effort.

This is what I had asked him to do that he hasn't:
Post to the forum on a regular basis for accountability
Continue coaching with SH
Read the books and articles
Schedule UA time
Make amends to family

The fact that he hasn't done these and he knows that they are all very important to me is what bothers me.

I've spent quite a bit of time reflecting on things this weekend. And I'll admit, it has been a rough weekend emotionally for me. I think I have done a lot as far as cleaning up my side of the street. All the things that kiss complained about, I have changed. I went to "crazy" lengths to "win" my husband back. I have read books and forums and sought advice about fixing my marriage. I have continued with my IC to help me with my personal recovery. I have sacrificed the close relationship with my family because of him. And yet I do not see the same effort put in my him. Why am I trying so hard to fix something he broke?
I'm also not sure that I will EVER be able to get past all the things that he did. It just hurts too much and I still cry on a daily basis over it. I can't help but think that I might have to finally admit defeat. I have tried so hard and I just don't know if I can keep doing it anymore.

A wise poster said this.
When to Call It Quits - Part 1
In addition to this excellent article here are some excellent radio clips on this.

Please listen to these radio clips on what are the reasons for divorce.

Radio clip at 5:45 When to call it quits
Segment #2

HUGS RQ.

Oh gosh, what can I say. I've been on this very brink myself more times than I can count. I won't pretend to have any answers. It is so easy giving advice, everything is so cut and dry. But when you are dealing with a real live human spouse who is not doing everything 'by the book,' it is so much more complicated. Maybe it doesn't have to be, but it is.

Thinking of you RQ. If you want to keep plugging along, we will be here for support. If you are truly ready to move on, we will also be here for support.

Thanks guys, I know I have a lot of thinking to do but I feel I have been trying to get him to be enthusiastic about things for months now and I just don't see it. I had thought about signing up for the on-line program but worry that would be money down the drain being as he doesn't want to do it. He doesn't bother with any of the free stuff or even re-reading things I have given him so why waste the money? right?

Brain

Brain- I listened to the radio clip. Thanks. In fact, Dr Harley himself told me that I had every right to call it quits if that is what I chose to do.

Exactly, my friend.

Btw, good morning

RQ - sorry you have been having a rough time of it lately. I've been gone for a few days but since you haven't posted further, I assume you are still in the same mindset.

I can tell you that recovery does take TIME. But - time with EFFORT is essential.

I think part of the problem here stems from the fact that you were never tough with kiss on the whole plan B deal. He's "learned" that he can get by with the minimum effort.

Something you need to ask yourself is, is kiss still a renter or freeloader - or has he truly become a buyer in your marriage? If he is a buyer, he should be willing to do the work. What you've asked of him - posting, making amends, reading the books, etc... is not anything out of line. I personally never made it a condition for my H to post, but that is because I knew he was doing the other work; not posting didn't bother me.

When I read everything you're saying, what I get is that you do not feel that kiss has truly owned his actions and taken responsibility for them; he doesn't really get how devastating his actions were. If he did, he would be jumping up and done to make restitution. If that's the case, have you told him this point blank? Did you let him know at the beginning of recovery how hurt you were and what it did to you, or did you skate over all of that?

There's always mistakes when you don't "go through" it all and try to step around these issues in recovery.

If you did go through all of that, then what are kiss' reasons for not giving you just compensation? He needs to understand that you will never heal without it.

RQ what's going on lady? I'm a little worried about you, sounds like you have been at a LOW and just wondering how you're doing.

SunnyD- Your advice always means so much to me and you are right about my Plan b. I know I could have done better but it's too late for regrets now.


That is in a nutshell. I don't understand the why of it. I think that is something kiss needs to ask himself. But he does know how hurt I was and still am (he has also gone over this with SHarley) And I did speak to him a few days ago about how I do not feel like he is putting in that much of an effort. And you know what, it was the same stuff I told him in a letter 3 months ago!

I feel like I am done trying. My IC says that I needed to go through this process (from beginning to end)to know that I gave it my all and to now just watch and see. I'll know when I am ready.

Unwritten - thanks for checking in on me. I have been having a rough time. Depressed and panicky lately. Don't know how much longer I can keep going in this rut.

Yes, you're right - it's too late for regrets now about the Plan B and I am not trying to club you over the head with that fact. I mention it because I think it helps explain why he isn't feeling the full force of needing to follow the exact steps you have currently laid out for recovery. He's gotten away with less in the past.

You are right to have doubts about the future if he is still acting like a renter or freeloader. It is imperative for true recovery that you have a better marriage than ever before. If that is not true at the 2 year mark of beginning the MB program, it is dangerous territory indeed.

It DOES take a good 2 years to truly recover (WITH EFFORT) from this - no doubt about it. It actually takes longer if both parties are not fully participating.

So, to that end, I am assuming that you, personally, have been following the program and the principles up until now? I'm not saying that kiss' efforts shouldn't exceed or at least match yours - but I can definitely see more effort with my H when I am making it part of conversation and carrying out actions accordingly. I've never minded being the one to lead in this regard - as long as he willingly does his part. I know some BS's feel the WS should be leading. I don't think Dr. H ever says that a WS must lead the efforts but I do understand the feeling that a WS is the one that must make just compensation and show eagerness to heal, etc... It's just that from my perspective, I had been the one doing all the research for months and I was the "sane" one throughout it all. There was no way I wanted someone who had been wayward for a year or so to be "leading" our recovery. (Although, I concede that this depends on one's definition of leading.)

Having said all that, it sounds to me like you have done that. (I only bring this up because you stated you feel like giving up.) You've given him your list of what just compensation looks like to you. Now you have to ask yourself if he is doing some but not enough, or just outright refusing to do it, or is he procrastinating?

To clarify, have you told SH that kiss is not working the program and that's what prompted him to say you have every right to end the marriage if that is the case? Or, is your statement of SH saying you have that right due to the principle that every BS has the right to leave the marriage after infidelity? I am curious as to what the specific advice would be, knowing that the WS is not actively working the program.

Also, how versed is your IC on MB principles?

If I were in your shoes, I would do the following:

I would let kiss know that you cannot recover in a marriage where you have been betrayed and he is not willing to give you just compensation for that. I would specify every way in which you have cleaned up your side of the street. I would then say that it is unacceptable to you that he has not done X, Y, and Z - especially when you have asked for this several times over. How can you possibly feel secure in this marriage when he is refusing to make amends that are reasonable? I would then give him a deadline to complete X, Y, and Z. I would not fight with him about why he isn't willing - because honestly, that's just too dang bad. If he hadn't cheated, he wouldn't be asked to do these things.

No one is saying he has to become best friends with your family or become the #1 poster on these forums.... but, it IS his job to do whatever it takes to make you feel safe and cared for - and to know that he is, indeed, a buyer.

Sometimes people need a deadline to push them towards action. I really think he might be one of those. However, you HAVE to have an exact plan of action AND FOLLOW THROUGH if he does not meet that deadline. You can't be scared of the consequences. You are miserable right now; I assume you don't want to live in misery the rest of your life. If kiss continues to not make you feel safe - how long can you "see this process through" as your IC is suggesting? That's enough to send anyone to the looney bin!!! If I recall, you already had one health scare due to all this. You need to be healthy for yourself and for your kids. I would hate for you to watch and see for too long and end up a shell of a person because you couldn't find the strength to enforce some tough love.

We all sat here and encouraged you to let kiss move home - under the assumption he was working the program and cleaning up his side of the street. If that's not the case, he doesn't deserve to be home.

Without more details it is hard to fully assess the situation. Is he meeting your needs at all? Why is he no longer reading the material, etc... Does he feel like he already has a good grasp on the concepts and is employing them?

I'm trying to get a grasp here on where you both are mentally. I know full well how it can be in the middle of recovery and have doom and gloom slam you - or anger. I went through those times feeling like no efforts would ever be good enough to make me get over what my H had done. Remember, recovery or no recovery, you still go through the stages of grief which include both depression and anger. In the moments of those emotions it really is hard to tell if it's just "normal" stuff you are enduring or if your H is failing to step up to the plate.

If you can look at your situation and know beyond a shadow of a doubt that your H is not working the program in any real, measurable way, it's time for some tough love. Your health depends on it. I would ask for him to prove he means business soon - with a deadline - or go to a real plan B. I would not sit on my hands and do nothing while your mental and physical health decline...

Sunny, as always thank you for the time you give me to post such thought-provoking posts. I also went over some of my feelings with my IC (who is not versed in MB principles, per se, but when I explain them to her she understands them- she's really great!). After talking to her and reading your post, this is what I think. That kiss still does not "get it" and doesn't want to. There has really been no soul searching on his part as to the "why" the A happened, no acceptance of "what" and no reflection on the "how". And I think that is the crux of the matter. He only met briefly with an IC, spoke to SH twice, has had very little dealings with the forum and still lacks any accountability. With very little self-reflection on his part, I think that it is why he doesn't understand the just compensation part. Or understand the rightness of making amends. In some ways, I think he is still foggy and un-remorseful. I think some kind counseling for him alone would help him tremendously. But who can afford Steve Harley on a weekly basis? And I didn't feel that the IC/MC we were seeing was really addressing the A. And I don't see kiss really caring anyway.
The needs meeting is getting better, the POJA a little more difficult and the RH needs working on and so does the UA. He has really stepped up on those things the last few days. And I have read "Recovery after an Affair" numerous times and we are following that program but I find that it is not enough to fix this.
At this time, I have given him a deadline. But I think if a WS doesn't get it, then a deadline will not make it happen. Do I want to be with someone who never will? That is the big question. This is part of the e-mail I had received from Dr Bill Harley
" The issue you should address is whether or not your husband is actually doing what we recommend: Eps, POJA, PORH, and POUA. The goal is for your marriage to recover and by doing these things, that will happen. "

So where does this leave me?

That leaves you with a decision. He has obviously decided that you will accept him as is. DO YOU? YOU may have to take the next step of ending the marriage. Are you willing to do that?

Well, just had a conversation with him about my thoughts in my above post. Kiss says that he feels like smelly brown poop for what he did, but that there is no way to take it back. That we are 2 different people whereas I like to dwell on stuff and he deals with it and moves on. Do you think I shouldn't be dwelling in it? "I didn't say that" he says. He also alluded to that instead of letting it heal, that it keeps getting picked at. Is that what I am doing? "I didn't say that" he says. So what is your suggestion I asked. To figure out how to heal you so can move past this he says.
OH really?

So there you have it. I'm the one who has to go to counseling, talk to people on forums, take anti-depressants and anti-anxiety meds, read books, and what have you to deal with this brokenness of what he did to me. And he deals with it and moves on.

So, MB, to answer your question, NO, I don't accept that and YES, I am willing to end it. Can you tell I'm a little angry?

The way you can "move on" from the adultery, as kiss put it, is to have Just Compensation. Your H will need to deposit massive amounts of love units and avoid all love busters, while making the marriage safe. That's the only way to "move past" adultery.

Is he saying he is unable/unwilling to do this? He will not meet your ENs? He will not avoid LBs?

He doesn't understand that he is missing out on the opportunity of his lifetime--to have a really great, healed marriage.

Longway, he is meeting the en's to a certain extent. That part is getting better. He is not lb'ing. I guess I'm the one who is doing that by demanding more.

So, is the problem me?

RQ,

He's right, you know. His transgression can never be erased. No answer to how or why will do that. No amount of "getting it" will make it be forgotten.

But, I would suggest that you respectfully inform him that you cannot just choose to "get over" or "move past" this.

The only way is through.

And he can go through it by your side. He SHOULD be by your side.

HHH, I know he's right. He knows that I am trying. Guess I still have a ton of work to do on myself. I don't know if I can do that with him by my side, though.

He still doesn't get it, you're right. You NEED the just compensation to "move on" and he just wants you to forget about the past and move on. It doesn't happen that way.

It's true that us BSs have work to do in all the recovery efforts as well. I know I did and still do. However, what I see as the missing piece here is that kiss is not taking responsibility for his actions. "Feeling bad" about them is not good enough! So he feels like poo - that's great. What's he doing to make amends? You've told him exactly what he can do (just compensation) and he is not doing that. So, the big message he is sending to you is, "I want to do what's easy rather than what's right." AND/OR... "I still care more about myself than I do about the state of my marriage and family."

Given those messages, I certainly understand why you can't just move on. And let me tell ya... just stuffing it and not dealing with it - not having a better marriage - is NOT recovery, RQ. It will leave you vulnerable. I've seen it IRL as well as on the forums.

HHH is right - you have to go through and Kiss is trying to go around.

The other posters are right too. You've gotten some great advice here.

You will never feel safe in your marriage if you do not get just compensation and make your marriage better than ever. While it's true that doing all the things MB recommends - meeting needs, avoiding LBs, putting in the UA time - will make your marriage better, you are still missing the just compensation component.

Personally, my take on it is that as long as kiss is not willing to put forth the effort on just compensation, he is not putting EPs in place. Furthermore, he is NOT demonstrating he is a buyer in this relationship. No wonder you are frustrated.

Having said all that, I stand by some of my thoughts I had at the beginning of recovery for H and I. I knew that I could not stand, whip in hand, ready to smack him every time I felt upset or angry about the A. I knew there was nothing he could do to change the past. Therefore, while it was very tough - I had to hold my tongue and not lash out, not bring up the past, not try to "make him pay" or any of that. I had to meet his need for admiration along with other needs... and it was difficult at first. After all, he had to earn some of that respect/admiration first. But...I was able to do so BECAUSE I witnessed his willingness to take responsibility and to do whatever I needed him to do. And yes, I analyzed whether or not what I required of him was reasonable.

I can also point out that my H didn't always say the great and wonderful things that I wanted him to say. (This is documented on my recovery thread.) I had these thoughts in my head that if only H would act a certain way or say certain things, I would heal much faster. If he got down on his knees and cried, for instance, about how I never deserved any of what he did.... Or, if he talked about wanting to give me the moon and stars to make up for it.... that somehow, I would be moved to forgive him and just get over it. That didn't happen. It wouldn't have been honest or genuine if it had, because that's not my H's style; never has been. I had to reconcile my notions with the fact that I wanted REAL recovery. That meant that H's actions, not his words, would be the "proof" of his remorse that I needed.

In my case, the consistency of H's willingness to face obstacles got me over the hump of my anger and hurt. It also got me over the need to hear the grandiose statements I felt I wanted from him. Words ring hallow while actions shore up the holes.

I can't help but wonder why it is that kiss will go so far with his actions, but not take them all the way. That's the real dilemma here. It's why you are stuck. I would be too. If he had jumped through every hoop you'd asked of him, I would tell you to just hang in there - true recovery takes time. But that's not the case. If your "hoops" were unreasonable, I would tell you to reconsider those hoops. They don't seem to be so - at least not to anyone here.

Of course, if you choose you can change the scope of those hoops. I know I did a few times throughout the process... like needing to hear certain things from my H. I was able to think about what it was I needed and why - and how he could offer me just compensation in another way. For instance, with the family: I never asked him to call my brother and sister in law specifically. Yet, when my brother came to visit, I expected him to be a certain way. And you know what? he was - without me even asking. In fact, he surpassed my expectations on this. (Long story - I won't go into details.) Although, I will add that I never asked him to call them because there wasn't the direct issues that have occurred with Kiss and your family members.

SO - for example - if you wanted to change your hoop to ask kiss to write a letter instead of phoning them - that might be a little easier and still offer just compensation. Of course, you may have already put this on the table, I don't know: I'm just giving a specific example of how there could be some POJA applied.

I guess what it boils down to, in my opinion, is you need just compensation. He can examine it in any way he likes, but it boils down to you needing it to move on. If he has better suggestions of how to give you that - then lets hear them!

I feel like I am talking in circles here... it's just so frustrating! I can only imagine how it must be for you.

But anyway....GOOD JOB on the deadline issuing!

WOW, SunnyDinTx, that was a wonderful post above. Thank you for sharing your story and thoughts soooooo openly. It really helps to hear it from this perspective. Thank you !!!!!!

Hello Rocketqueen. I too wonder why your H isn't makeing wrong his rights. Why he is not so remorseful that you see his remorse in his actions. Normally, when people are remorseful, they kill themselves to make up for the wrong they have done to someone. I KNOW when someone is sorry and when someone isn't really sorry. My H is "sorry" the he made these choices, but he is not sorry that he actually did it, or sorry that he hurt me so deeply. I don't know where your H falls in this. Is he the kind of person has issues with empathyzing with others? It does seem that he doesn't REALLY get how much he has hurt you. I think it would have to be he just really doesn't get it or he doesn't care enough to do whatever it takes to make it better for you. You sound so strong and capable. Thank you for sharing your story. Just hearing your words is so helpful.

Would your H be willing to sign up and go through the Online Program? It's very specific and you get coaching and guidance all the way through. You had mentioned not wanting to throw more money away, but if your H is willing, this very specific program could help turn your marriage around.

It's worth the money to get the accountability and the help. There is a seminar to watch and an audio set of the entire MB program. We watched the seminar together and listened to the CDs in the car, so we had ongoing MB education. We also currently listen to the radio segments by computer.

My H never talks about the A. He said he wanted to put it behind him, not to sweep it under the rug, but because he is so embarrassed and horrified at what he did that he doesn't want it in his mind. I can get that. I still think about it every day, at some point, but I don't bring it up anymore.

Your H will show his remorse by meeting your needs and avoiding love busters, as well as by following EPs. The Five Steps workbook has very detailed questionnaires that specify exactly how each wants ENs met.

For example, for affection, I specified to my FWH that I would love for him to tell me "I'm in love with you" and cuddle and kiss me every single morning before we get out of bed. Sometimes I'm still half-asleep when he plants a little kiss on my lips or forehead, but he never fails to remember to that one little thing.

Most men want very specific instruction on what is needed. Dr. Harley even had one man follow a detailed list prepared by the man's wife. He had to check each item off as it was done. After some time, these actions became a habit and the man no longer needed the list.

RQ, I meant to say "right his wrongs" About an hour after I posted, I wanted to edit, but the option was already gone.

RQ, I am very sorry that Kiss has not stepped up yet. I feel for you because I know exactly where you are.

It is VERY frustrating when words do not equal actions. Kiss is saying the right words, but his general ho hum attitude about recovery is not indicating that he really understands the pain he caused you and is willing to pull out all the stops to get recovery. Right?

I don't think everyone needs that, a WS who is proactively willing to 'fight for you' by doing whatever they can to win back your heart and put the train back on its track. Obviously recovery requires a spouse willing to do the work, but it isn't necessarily about the willingness, as much as the proactive desire to step outside their box, step into the uncomfortable zone, and proactively and aggressively fight for you and your marriage. My H spent well over a YEAR after DDay saying 'I will do whatever you want for me' and truly, if I had come to him with a 'you need to read chapter 3 of SAA' and stayed on him about it, he would have done it. Is that willingness to do the work? Sure. I needed MORE. I needed HIM to come to ME and say, 'tonight we are doing chapter 3 of SAA, together' (or whatever). I needed HIM to drive recovery, demand we schedule UA time, demand we work on our assignments, etc. I was the one who was 'willing to do the work when asked' but I did not want to drive it. To me, part of JC was to see him fight for me. After he hurt me as bad as he did, I needed to know that he wanted me and was willing to fight for me, not just go along for the ride.

It is Kiss's attitude, more than his lack of willing to do the work, that stands in your way here.

Like I said, not everyone needs that for JC, but I did and it seems like you do too. It is VERY frustrating to feel like you are SO CLOSE to a true, unbelievable recovery and marriage and you just can't get him to step over that bridge.

I am going to go post to Kiss now. I am going to tell him how close I was to leaving before H turned it around. H was so close to pushing it a hair too far, and he knows it.

I did give H a deadline, and he is still on the clock so to speak. It has driven him. But more than the timeline I think what drove him to change was seeing the look in my eyes when I gave him that deadline. He knew I didn't hate him anymore, I wasn't resentful or frustrated or bitter or even really that sad. I was just emotionless and done. I was just looking forward to peace in my life, moving forward, without him. That is what drove him, but it was almost the death of us, and still might be.

Keep posting. Keep letting us know what is going on.

Thank you everyone for your kind responses. To me, I need to see that he wants to work on recovery. Not just do things because I want him to do it. I need to see that I am worth the effort to him and I have yet to see that. Time will tell, but I can see that he is stepping things up.

I would really like to find an affordable marriage counselor that could help us, as ours isn't trained in infidelity and "treatment" of that.

Littlebit, thank you for your kind words. I feel the same way you do. I beat myself up if I even THINK I made someone else upset. I know that Kiss is deeply sorry for what he did. But he does need to right his wrongs in order for me to be able to forgive him and move on. If he doesn't, I will not be able to.

Longway, I do feel that he needs some type of accountablity. At least someone he can talk to and the online program would be good for that. Might I want to see if kiss is inested in recovery before I invest the money, kwim? He is getting better with the EN's and he has EP's in place. I try very hard to not bring up the affair, but I still trigger/think about it a lot, which I try to hide. In fact, kiss marked me at like a -1 for O&H because I don't mention them to him!

Unwritten- You hit it on the nose. It's like me telling my daughter to aplogize to her brother. She's not really sorry she wacked him with her doll but she'll do it because I told her to. It's just not sincere and I want it, no I need it to be sincere. If it's not, then it means nothing. And then I feel like I mean nothing.

Sunny- you are awesome, as always.

Exactly. He's either in or out.

Glad to be of some help, Littlebit!

I have felt this way at times in recovery. My H needed some guidance at various times. The only thing I would comment on here is that you do have to look at some of Dr. H's works and realize that sometimes men those specific directions of "what to do" instead of the mentality that, "if he really cared, I wouldn't have to ask!"

Yes, of course you want him to want to make just compensation. You don't want him offering hollow apologies/thoughts/actions he doesn't mean, like your example about making someone apologize. That would NOT be RH, would it?

Sometimes, whether because of different personality types or different genders or different upbringings us humans have different ways of coping and showing love and commitment. In that vein, I would caution you against assuming that just because you had to ask H for certain actions that it means he doesn't mean them or is just doing them to appease you. They just may not be natural things for him to do. Just like was mentioned in LongWay's post above, Dr. H talks about a wife writing a list for her H of things for him to do to show affection. As a personal example, I had to tell my H exactly how I would like my birthday to be recognized last year. When he did it, exactly as I spelled out, did I feel a little like it was too bad that I had to coach it out of him? Well, yeah - but that went away. Plus, I chose to focus on the fact that he wanted to do it exactly as I laid out - because that's what would make me happy. Hopefully, this year, I won't have to coach so much.

What I am trying to say is, sometimes we have to realize that what we have in our heads as the proper way for our spouses to show love and commitment is not always their natural way. We have to teach them and that's perfectly fine.

HOWEVER... that is not what I see as the core issue here. The core issue is, kiss not stepping up to the plate when you've already laid out the specifics. That, to me, is a glaring indicator that he is being lazy in recovery and not taking it serious enough.

Now, if he followed your directions to the letter of the law - jumping through those hoops - and you were still feeling exasperated because you had to "ask" and that he wasn't "fighting for the marriage on his own accord..." my advice to you would be somewhat different here. I would be asking different questions and posing different thoughts - because that's a different matter.

So, my next big question to you is, which is it that is REALLY bothering you: that you want him to be doing more without your asking or that he hasn't completed things you have already asked?

My next question would be, what reason(s) does he give for not completing these things? And also, do you feel your requests are reasonable? Do you feel he could give you an alternate way on some of these things as just compensation? If not, it's OK - I'm just asking. It is, after all, YOUR just compensation.

Geez...forgive the typos in that post above. I just had total words missing, lol. It doesn't help that I had a bunch of teenagers going in and out, messing up my thoughts, while I was typing that.

I wanted to add something. There is a big difference when you are coaching someone on how to meet your needs as to how they respond to it. If they are enthusiastically implementing your requests it is vastly different than if doing so grudgingly. Not to mention, with the MB requirement of being radically honest, you should know the difference.

Of course, enthusiastic doesn't mean one has to be jumping up and down about something that is difficult. For instance, when it is put to a WS that the BS wants a poly, I don't imagine too many WSs are going to be "enthusiastic" about the poly itself. They should, however, be enthusiastic about the fact that they can do something to make their BSs feel safe and secure in the marriage and put their minds at ease.

This is the only other thing I have to comment on as far as the "needing to make H do stuff" train of thought. When you do give him direction, is he happy to know how it is he can make you feel better? I know for my H, he was happy when he was able to do specific things that helped me move on. After all, he wanted me to move on as quickly as possible and didn't feel so helpless when he could assist towards that end.

I think my wanting to hear the grandiose statements is along the same lines of what you've been saying, RQ, about wanting kiss to "fight for your marriage." I totally understand that. There are different ways to accomplish that but I don't think you will ever fully buy in until you feel that he wants this recovery with you more than anything in the world. He MUST demonstrate this to you in a way that YOU feel this. The only way he gets any kind of pass on this is if he has some sort of disorder that prevents that. I say that because I have a friend whose H has Aspergers, which prevents him from processing things in the same way the wife does when it comes to relationships. MB was CRUCIAL for their marriage even though no infidelity had occurred. It was the only way that H would even meet his wife needs.

I am listening to today's radio program now. No, I am not Ginger, lol, but I sure as heck could be! Very similar story

Actually, he just seems to ignore any of my suggestions

That shows nothing but disrespect if you ask me! This goes back to him thinking he can do everything on his terms. He needs to learn he cannot. Ignoring your spouse's needs is extremely disrespectful and does not show a buyer's mentality.

You have, I assume, told him how his ignoring your thoughts and suggestions feels to you, so he isn't ignorant on the matter. ???

He knows as I have told him a few times. He says he is trying. I get words but not action.

As Yoda says, "Do or do not...there is no try!"



I guess the problem remains in the area of motivation. What's it going to take to get him in gear - that's the million dollar question. I say consequences. I know he's talked to SH a time or two - but it sounds like he needs the extra boot on a regular basis. With the online program, I am concerned that he won't hop onto the site and do it.

Does he have any answers/suggestions (other than for you to just get over it) or is he just making excuses time after time?

Consequences. That's about all you can do with this. He's had plenty of time to "try" so now it's time for "do or do not..."

LOL, thanks Sunny!

Love Busters covers passive-aggressiveness, apathy, and bad habits. This is really a case of all three. Sounds like what's really needed is a solid plan to deal with the apathy together. Setting aside time every week to read a chapter aloud and answer the questions together will help address that. We used Sunday nights at 8:33PM. Pick the time you like

Glad you pointed this out, Door. I had forgotten that Lovebusters covered passive-aggressiveness & apathy - been a long time since I've read that. (LBers are something H and I are good at avoiding, thankfully.)

Whats going on RQ?

I've seen Kiss post a few times. Never responded to my post but at least he's posting.

The gist of my post to him was about the 'attitude' more than the action. I think the MB way is to focus on the action, but for me the attitude HAD to accompany it. I was not willing to work on recovery with someone who did not have the proper attitude about it. I was not willing to be the one to 'drive the bus' or strong arm him into the program (which is what it felt like). I could, but why would I want to do that. I am too good to be with a man who is not 110% in, KWIM???

So I get you. I am sure there are people reading Kiss's thread believing that he is doing whatever he can 'in action.' But I understand where he's lacking (and many other people do too, from the responses).

Hope you are doing OK. Thinking about you.

What's with the wanting him to move out to work on yourselves and your M? Is this the start of a new Plan B? Just wondering what your plan is here.

I agree with the attitude being very important, esp for a WH. Dr. H says there is a difference in women and men: with WW's you may not actually get the "hat in hand" where with WH's, it's needed.

I know I've said before that I did not mind leading recovery in my situation. However, that was because my H had a great attitude about it. He was willing to do whatever was needed and demonstrated he was all in. By his body language and general countenance I could feel his sincerity. Therefore, if I had to be the one to say, "OK..this is next on the list..." that was fine by me.

I do believe feelings follow actions. There are definitely times when you may not feel enthusiastic about something but as soon as you start taking the right actions, your feelings change along with those. And - the MB program is definitely an action program! In that sense, yes, if you take the right steps your relationship will improve, even if you start out reluctantly. There is a caveat to that though: if the wayward is still foggy, there is no way of making deposits into his or her love bank!

There's also the factor that at the beginning of recovery, the WS can be going through withdrawal from the AP. In that time period you may not see the bounding enthusiasm towards the spouse. With time (and correct actions) however, that should dissipate. It's been long enough where that should not be the case with Kiss, as long as he is not in contact with OW.

Here's the thing: the process usually works that once you start recovery and are following the plan 100%, you begin to fall back in love with each other and that grows stronger and stronger. With the growth of those feelings something else happens: the WS begins to feel more and more remorse for the hurt caused. I know in my case I was advised to be patient; that over time I would see and feel remorse and repentance more and more. It was absolutely true! When we really got close again is when I started to feel that H truly was sorry about everything. And - I no longer needed the grandiose statements I'd wanted previously, because what I was getting was much more genuine.

I'm sure you've seen my post to Kiss and I expressed the attitude side of things as well. It IS true that sometimes men don't get the emotional stuff: they think if they're checking off the list, that's all they've gotta do. But - I'm sure all of us women have seen our husbands in action: how they wooed us over in the first place. We know it's possible for them to get in touch with that side.

UW brings up a good point, RQ: have a plan - and not plan C! It's good that you are raising the bar but don't do it without a firm plan in place.

ETA: I apologize if this post is choppy - I'm working on two things at once at the moment.

I'm OK guys. Getting over a bad head cold. Will post more when I can.
Thanks for checking on me.

~RQ

Hi everyone, just thought I would check in. I have been having a hard time feeling depressed these last couple of weeks and I can't seem to shake it. Followinf the program hasn't been helping, my ic hasn't been helping, coaching

hasn't been helping, even my ad's aren't helping.

I think I'm going back to the doc to try something else. I might talk to my pastor as well. Though I haven't been to church in about a month. I gotta get out of this funk so I can concentrate on my marriage

RQ,

So sorry to hear about the depression issues. I've suffered with it in the past so I know how it is. Actually, I still do when my hormones are outta whack. Depression can either by driven by circumstances or by chemicals gone awry. When you've gone through major trauma such as marital crisis, it can be both.

Definitely see your doctor about what's going on! You may need a different type of AD.

I think it's one of those things you just have to approach from all angles - from spiritually to diet and exercise to medicines to marriage recovery to personal recovery and so on.

Also, there is a strong link between depression and vitamin D deficiency. You can try taking some supplements or just getting some sun for 15-20 minutes a day. If you aren't eating healthy, make sure you are taking a good multi-vitamin every day. Also, for what it's worth, since I started adding 2 tablespoons of ground flax seed to my morning cereal I have felt SO MUCH better! The omega 3's and other benefits have just really been fantastic for me. My energy level hasn't been this good in a long time.

Personally, I have a lot of coping mechanisms in place for when I start to see the signs flaring up. These days mine is limited to a few days during PMS, typically, but those days can be terrible if I don't pull out all my big guns.

Let Kiss and the rest of your family know how they can help you during this time!

Sorry you are dealing with this.

((((((((((Rocket Queen))))))))))))

Working the program isn't working?

AD's can address a chemical issue in your brain, but will do little if your mood is the result of your husband's (in)action.

Treat the root cause, not the symptom.

HHH, sorry, I was referring to the depression. I know feelings are supposed to follow actions. I'm hoping that will be the case. I do think that a change in my anti- depressants are necessary

There's no doubt that marital discord can cause depression. However, there is also such a thing as clinical depression as well, which needs to be treated along side lifestyle changes.

Both parties giving 100% to recovery should shore up the marital side of things but if symptoms are still occurring despite best efforts, it is necessary to look at other causes.

I have battled clinical depression at times in my life - whenever big hormone fluctuations have come along. My not getting help for it was a precursor to the marital crisis that led to H's A, in fact. Thus, I would urge anyone who might struggle with it to seek treatment, be it natural cures, coping mechanisms, medications, along with dealing with it within the marriage. While I realize there are times when too many people are labeled clinically depressed when really they just need to fix their marriages or lifestyles, I would hate to see someone not get the help they need when real depression presents itself.

In my case, I know exactly how to tell the difference these days between emotions that are out of whack due to chemicals/hormones vs being out of whack because my marriage needs work. The "cure" is somewhat different in each scenario. It really takes getting to know yourself to be able to differentiate.

Sunny, thanks for your input. I have dealt with depression off and on since my teens. It got really bad PP after my 4th child but AD's and IC helped a lot. Then it came back after DDay. I had been doing OK (so I thought) with my current AD's until recently. Whether it is chemically related or Affair related, I don't know. BuI hope a switch in my meds will help.

It did get worse when I realized that the DDay antiversary was approaching and thought "what a sucky year!!"

~RQ

Whether it's chemical or A-related - or a combination of both - Kiss can help you a lot right now by becoming your soft place to fall. One of the best ways my H helps me is to listen and to let me know that whatever's going on, I'm not in it alone. That's one of the hardest parts to depression if you ask me, feeling overwhelmed and that you have to somehow solve everything by yourself. Knowing you can share that burden is the first step towards feeling better in many cases.

Right now Kiss needs to learn how to help you. In doing so, if it's completely marriage related that should relieve a lot of it.

Of course, it is perfectly normal to feel anger and/or depression nearing the anti-versary! I know I certainly did. I felt a huge sense of dread and loss.

Do you have any coping mechanisms in place? Have you shared with Kiss what you need? Are the two of you working out a plan to deal with this depression together?

For me, one of the worst things my H could've suggested was that meds could "fix" me - without him working alongside.

He has been a comfort to me and says that things will get better. Yesterday he surprised me with a beautiful bouqet of flowers and a small stuffed animal.


I have just been crying a lot. I hate it. I don't want to be a weepy mess. It is sooo unattractive lol. But I just can't help it. Kiss and I went for a car ride yesterday and I spent it sad and crying. I don't know what else to do. Any ideas would be appreciated. I just feel so hopeless about everything

When are you getting back into your doctor?

I didn't get a chance to call today but I'm sure I'll get in before the end of the week. I see my IC on Thursday as well. I will talk less with her about my marriage and focus more on me and how I am feeling.

~RQ

Sorry I haven't gotten back to you, RQ. I've been without internet - darn router!!!

My suggestions (for coping) would be to exercise daily, for starters, and eat right. Make sure you're getting all your vitamins in, esp. vitamin D! Get plenty of sleep but not too much sleep, which can add to depression. Pray, if you are a praying person - and if not, spend 10-15 minutes meditating on good things in your life. Find bible verses and/or quotes that give you strength and memorize them. Have some favorite music at your disposal: the feel good stuff that makes you want to tap your toes or makes you feel victorious. Learn to set boundaries so that if you need a mental health break, you can take it. That's really important with young kids around all day.

Take up a new hobby or take a class - find something - ANYTHING - that engages your brain and makes you feel accomplished. Do you spend any time with friends? I try and have lunch with a friend at least every other week. You would be surprised how much positivity comes back to you when you are able to put some out there - if that makes sense. It doesn't take much to do that. It can be complimenting someone at the grocery store or offering a hand to an elderly person who is struggling... making others smile seems to help us smile ourselves.

So many times we look for big answers to problems that seem big and sometimes, the key to feeling better is in all the little things that add up.

I don't know what your particular challenges are with this or I could try and offer more detailed suggestions. These are just some general things that were suggested to me in one form or another and have helped. I'm glad to hear that Kiss is being supportive. Keep in mind that our loved ones can often try and cheer us up in ways that are good but that aren't exactly what we need. Learn to pinpoint exactly what you need and ask for it!

I hope the doc helps!

Let us know how things are going RQ, darn depression. I had during pregnancy (can't remember what thats called) and postpartum BAD with the first one, and postpartum a little more mildly with the second, just a taste of what its like and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. (OK, maybe someone but I'm not saying any names here.../posow/) Some day I will stop wishing bad things to befall that girl, but not today. Hope your IC and new meds help get it under control!

I had a good session with my IC yesterday. She pointed out that whenever I experience depression, the things going on all exhibit being anxious and worried. I don't feel anxious but she is right about being worried. She thinks I am steps away from a full-blown panic attack. She "prescribed" more self care ie: exercising, reading, whatever will keep my mind busy because when my mind is at rest is when it worries. So, Sunny, you were right on the money about that.

She also gave me some ideas about intrusive thoughts that occur at inappropriate times.

So for now, I am continuing my current AD's and also taking my anti-anxiety meds that the doc presribed for me. I'm hoping that will help me get my pyschological strength and motivation back!

rq- i am hooked on acupuncture- it has calmed my brain so much.

Chickadee- really? I never thought about that. I had always been afraid of needles....until I started having kids
I might have to look into that

i do too but they are not like hurting needles, it has calmed my anxiety so much, after a session it like whatever nothing bad phases me that is lasting up to 2 weeks, unless it was like last night but i am still like whatever i would have been out of my skin before - but look into some one who is licensed.

I will look into it

Hrm. I am all for non conventional medicine and all, but acupuncture still gives me the creepers.

RQ I'm glad to hear I am not the only one who has a messy car! Does the DS need apply to cars? LOL. I know it does, H has said things before about me having a messy car so I have actually worked hard over the last yr to keep at least the floors picked up from all the little toys, sweatshirts, etc. kids always leave in there, but still when you fold one of the back seats up the crumbs under it could feed a family of 5. Oh well, work in progress.

We did just POJA that HE would keep the outside of my car clean for me, because a clean car is more important to him than me, and my dad used to do that for my mom to 'take care of her' and so it makes me feel taken care of to have him clean my car.

Yes, my car (mini-van!) has a way of collecting stuff. My DD8 had 3 pairs of shoes in there. 3 pairs! I'm not sure how that happens. It doesn't bother me too much which is weird because household clutter drives me nuts!

Kiss is the same with me and does things like to take care of me. I wish I could see him demonstrate his protection of me so easily.

Is car maintenance/cleaning classified as DS or FS. Hard to separate that. (we have to trade cars a lot for work reasons though)

There is nothing unattractive about your sadness. I am like that a lot, too. Recovery is hard, yet such a relief. It's okay to cry when you need to.

my oesteopath uses acupuncture too. doesn't hurt, really!

RQ - i'll never forget my car when baby was one year old. cracker crumbs *everywhere!*

Ain'tready, DS is one of my top needs so he def got a check Mark for that for the day!
And I hope I didn't offend about the crying. I just don't want to appear weak. I'm feeling a lot more confident about myself. I am working on putting together my own boundaries and deal-breakers. So I know if kiss crosses them, what the consequences will be. It helps to put me back in control of things and my path.

Letty- I'm still finding crumbs!

Crumbs are good. Then when you are out of groceries and the kids get hungry you have somewhere to send them...go check under the back seat in the car...or what if you are stuck in a snow storm and you don't have food for days then you can eat the crumbs under the seat. So is it messy? Or is it PREPARED.

Speaking of crying and being 'attractive.' I struggle with this because I feel like I need to be on my A game all the time. I'm not, but when I'm not I feel guilty for not being. For instance, last week I was sick with a bad cold, house took a hit and I was not really energetic, didn't put the effort into myself, and I felt guilty like H comes home to a messy house, wife on the couch taking it easy, didn't feel real beautiful looking because I was sick... I know there will be those days, but I do feel guilt for it. Same as when you have sad days. What's the balance between RH and yet hiding some of the negative things going on so as to appear more attractive, even when you are struggling with sadness, illness, whatever.

I like that



Good question about RH. Personally, I'd rather keep it to myself. I don't want kiss to think I am bashing him by having to tell him why I'm upset. Can't we just recognize that I am having a moment (or day) and let it go? On another note, I had a trigger on saturday while at DD8 rollerskating party. A song came on that brought a bad memory and I tried to stick it out but my chest got tighter and tighter. I literally fled the building much to kiss's surprise. Apparently he didn't remember or know it was a trigger.

Went to church yesterday (finally) and did get a chance to talk to the Pastor afterwards. I filled her in on the past year and spoke to her about my not being able to forgive. Her thoughts were that I didn't have to do that before I was ready, that time will allow me to feel in my heart when it is ready to do so. She said that all I have to do right now is.....breathe. Sounds good, right?

I also wanted to include here a passage that was said during the service that I thought folks in recovery would be interested in hearing. It's from John 2:14 and 2:17

"What good is it for someone to say that he has faith if his actions do not prove it?" "So it is with faith, if it is alone and includes no actions, then it is dead"

It's important to be RH about where you are at but you don't have to bash Kiss in order to be RH; you don't have to bring up the past either. It can be tricky business but it's all in how you communicate it to him. You make it about you: what you need - where your giver and taker are at the moment - and how he can help you.

Last night, for instance, I was cranky. I didn't want to LB my H, however, in my crankiness. He asked how I was. I told him, "cranky." He asked if it was "in general or with someone/something in specific." I replied it was both: told him my taker felt overwhelmed and that I had much more on my plate than he and the boys, and yet - my giver was feeling guilty that I could not get everything done for everyone. (It was a longer convo than that - but you get the idea.) The key was in saying this calmly and rationally. H came over, hugged me, and asked for specifics so he could know how best to help me. He then got the boys together to get some things done around the house. Later, my giver was much more giving!

It's important to put your feelings into words in a way that is productive. One of the best skills you can learn.

How is the depression issue?

Sunny, that makes complete sense. I guess I just need to find a way to communicate it effectively.

The depression has been much better and I had been in a pretty good mood until kiss did a few things that bothered me. I have complained about them before and yet he still does them.

What do you do when your complaints are unheard?

Here's a good clip on radical honesty.
Radio clip on Radical Honesty

Well, it depends. When you originally "complained" did you do so in a manner that clearly and concisely told Kiss what you needed, wanted, and/or expected? If not, you need to do so. You go to him and say, "I mentioned before that it was a LB to me when you ______. Yet, you did _____ again yesterday. When you do ______ it makes me feel: sad/hurt/angry and withdraws a lot of units from your love bank."

If you've already explained this in detail, and he does ____ again, you let him know - at the time the LB is being done! This is important. "Kiss, you already know ____ is a LB to me, yet you are doing it right now."

Sometimes it takes us being shown actions as they are happening in order to bring about lasting changes.

Now, if he knowingly does _____ and disregards your feelings, it's time to sit down and hash out a POJA on ________.

There's also the possibility of using consequences for the negative behavior - depending on exactly what the behavior is. Remember - a tenet of MB is that the offending spouse should offer some sort of just compensation for LBs committed.

BH, thanks I'll listen to the clip

Sunny, I have done that. For example, I have said to him that it bothers me when he doesn't get up in the morning with and help me with the kids. And yet he continues to do it. He will apologize, but continue to do it. I would love to be able to stay in bed for an extra half an hour sometimes but I can't because this responsibilty seems to be laid on me.

Would it be a good idea for me to wtite out different lovebusters for him? I think the main thing with him is the IB.

When I first read the lovebusters information I was like, ya we don't really do any of those things. But then as time went on I was like, OH ya we do ALL of these things. You just don't recognize them as what they are at the time. Now little things are more recognizable for what they are.

I have found it very helpful to write them down when they occur, and save them for a conversation about how things are going. Otherwise it can get frustrating to have someone constantly calling 'lovebuster' on you (H does this with me, his use of the word lovebuster has become somewhat of a lovebuster...). I would prefer to have him discuss them in one of our 'review' sessions rather than spit them out whenever something annoying occurs, which apparently is a lot.

As far as this getting up early thing. I have kids so I get ya, only since we all get up early for us it is going to bed. H and I have POJA'd recently (but not really put into practice yet), having a night each week where one of us gets kid vacation, and can just lock ourselves in the bedroom to unwind and watch tv while the other puts kids to bed, or go to sleep early to catch up, or whatever. We have kids that don't like to go to bed so it can get to be a grind, and it is SO NICE to have a night off, for both of us. That way if we each have a night, we know there is a break coming and we feel like that break is fair, rather than it falling on my shoulders unless I ask for help (which happens to us moms). Maybe you can work with him on a solution like this?

Exactly! I thought the same thing. Now I am learning to recognize them

Sorry, I had to LOL at that while picturing it in my head.


Yes, we could work something out around his schedule.

Thanks!

Just to clarify, I didn't mean to blurt out, "Lovebuster!" every time something occurred. I meant that if it is something that Kiss doesn't realize he's doing, and that's why he is repeating the unwanted behavior, to gently point it out when it is happening.

But yes - otherwise, note it and discuss it when you are both in negotiation mode.

Yes, definitely make the LB's specific so that they can be avoided.

On this particular issue, it sounds like he is not enthusiastic about getting up with the kids; yet at the same time, it is a LB for him to NOT get up. This is the very type of situation where you use POJA.

Sit down with the "how can we brainstorm a solution to this..." Maybe you take turns getting up. Maybe you go to bed earlier...

Yes, a POJA issue. I think it would also be a good idea to have review sessions like UW has with her H.

As far as the RH goes, I think I am confused as to how to balance RH without bringing up the affair, which we are not supposed to talk about.

Ummm, I kind of like this idea. I can yell it while he is sleeping

I would imagine that, if there is something that's really getting to you, then you should discuss it. I think the intent of "not discussing the affair" is to get it over and done with up front, rather than continuously dragging it out over a period of months or even years.

This is what H does, he just did it this morning. He was telling me a story and I hugged him and started kissing his neck, he said 'thats a total lovebuster because I feel like you are not listening to me.' I was listening to him I just can't stand to see his lips move without wanting to kiss him somewhere...

I totally understand why he doesn't like it, you know I am a work in progress with this whole being too assertive thing. But I do rather hate getting told I am lovebusting all the time, especially when I am being very affectionate to him as it makes me associate LBing with giving affection, not his intent but you know it is a mental association, Pavlov's dogs.

Being married is hard, so much room for error.

Me too RQ. I do not bring up the A, if it is on my mind, etc. EVER anymore. I think about it and then put it on the back shelf of my brain. I DO still have days where I obsess about things in one way or another, but I don't share that with H or anything. Often, if it is affecting my mood, he can tell and he will question me about it and I do give him generic 'just having a hard day' type answers but I do feel like I am not being RH with him, in the same way if he came home and said he had a hard day and wouldn't give me any detail I would feel left out.

Also, I still have fake FB accounts, etc. set up to check up on OW's and also monitor H's behavior, I still log into his accounts and look around at random, and I don't tell him any of that and I kindof feel at this point it is being deceptive. I guess I feel that way because of my OWN indiscretions and the boundaries I have set for myself, then to have a secret account only I have the PW for, seems contradictory and deceptive, even though I only use them to monitor HIS behavior.

Feel like I'm TJing on your thread RQ, sorry about that if I am.

Ah that's mega cute! Did you tell him that?

Ok, if he says 'lovebuster' in future you have a few options. One is to ask 'What type of lovebuster?' just to get clarification on whether he is feeling annoyed at your lack of visible listening(AH) pressured to have sex (SD) or ..well I doubt AO applies!

Just 'lovebuster' alone is very vague and is akin to 'stop it' so asking for clarification on the probelm gives both you the opportunity to be caring and listening, and him the opportunity to ask for what he wants.

If however you just simply dont want him saying 'lovebuster' at you and it is really bugging you - just coach him into respectful requests instead. He says 'lovebuster' and you say 'Are you asking me how I would feel about not doing that and listening to you attentively instead?' and then ask him to phrase all his complaints in that way...

I think Dr H advises 'How would you feel about?' and 'Can we negotiatiate?' as good ways to phrase complaints.

Well I spoke to Kiss this morning about falling asleep on the couch and staying there most of the night. This is probably the 3rd time he has done it this week. I told him that I don't get to spend all day with him so it would be nice to spend all night with him by my side. Also, this is something he did OFTEN when he was immersed in his A so it is a big trigger for me as well. He apologized, said he doesn't mean to fall asleep there, and he understands. But we'll see if his actions actually change.

I have to say, that I am very glad that I am learning to communicate my feelings to him now and not holding it all inside. I had raged silently most of our marriage because I didn't communicate effectively and it manifested into a lot of resentment of him. I can say that that is something I have changed for myself for the better. Now I need to see some changes in him.

Yes I tell him stuff like that all the time Indie! He knows I can't stand to be in the room with him without having a one track mind (as does everyone else at this point...) That would make me feel like a billion trillion dollars (admiration EN) but for him it seems to have a very different affect. IDK no matter what round about I go through on my own thread, I still think its a GOOD thing to be that attracted to a man I have been with for 15 yrs.

'Lovebuster' has become akin to 'stop it, that annoys me.' I usually know 'why' it is an LB (such as this morning it was because he felt I wasn't listening) but still, it is hard not to generalize just by nature, such as getting the rubberband on my wrist snapped while kissing his neck, my natural instinct is to pull back on kissing his neck, even though he has told me that he just wants me to pay attention to him, ya know? Personally that's why I like to catelog the LB's and present them during a 'review' session if you will, so you can discuss them in a way that leaves less room for miscommunication. Plus, we have kids, almost ALL our conversations are quick interrupted convo's with likely miscommunication, so trying to discuss the 'here's how this feels and this and why' at any given moment can be a bad idea vs waiting until we have each others UA and are able to do it with no interruption and no miscommunication.